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Reinventing Romance with Lauren Smith · WriterCon

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Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast, I.
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Speaker 2: Would caution you to say, don't limit yourself to just
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Speaker 2: viewing yourself as an author, and rather, I would say
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Speaker 2: open yourself up to the mindset that you are a
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Speaker 2: CEO of your business and it should not be scary.
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Speaker 2: It should be exciting that you have the control and
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Speaker 2: you have the ability to enact your own vision in
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Speaker 2: your future. And just be excited about that CEO position
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Speaker 2: you have.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
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Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
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Speaker 1: hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
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Speaker 1: the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, an
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Speaker 1: author the want Len Files book series.
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Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich, Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining us.
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Speaker 3: So all is well in the writer con world. I
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Speaker 3: can't resist teasing that I just sold a new book
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Speaker 3: to what I think is the perfect publisher, but I'm
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Speaker 3: not supposed to actually talk about it until the pub
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Speaker 3: lunch announcement appears in publishers' marketplace. So I'm just being
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Speaker 3: a gigantic tease here, but I promise more bragging later.
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Speaker 4: Lara, it was a.
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Speaker 3: Super yeah, oh okay, no comment, Lara. More explanation later, Lara,
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Speaker 3: You're just coming off a big editing project.
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Speaker 4: How did that go?
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Speaker 5: Yes, this is a big one. So actually I have
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Speaker 5: I'm wrapping up a number of them. I've got one
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Speaker 5: coming to publication. I had a published book from last
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Speaker 5: year that was a finalist at the Oklahoma Book Awards,
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Speaker 5: and now I am about to bring out two more books. Actually,
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Speaker 5: but yes, this big one. It feels really good. Great
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Speaker 5: author to work with. This is someone who is eager
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Speaker 5: for advice and critique and help and guidance. And what
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Speaker 5: a dream to work with. Somebody who is not only
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Speaker 5: not resistant, but very open to brainstorming and discussing things.
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Speaker 5: This is somebody who came to us through some of
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Speaker 5: our retreats. Actually and speaking up retreat and.
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Speaker 3: Speaking of yeah, got one coming up?
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Speaker 6: We do.
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Speaker 5: We have the Cane Break Retreat coming up, which is
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Speaker 5: a great opportunity for anyone, whether you are at that
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Speaker 5: point where you're looking for someone to help you.
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Speaker 2: Edit your.
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Speaker 5: Manuscript, or whether you've got your first draft and you're
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Speaker 5: just kind of staring at it. When I finished my
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Speaker 5: first draft, I went back and looked at it and thought, well,
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Speaker 5: this is terrible and didn't know what to do, so
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Speaker 5: I had to go and get help. Or maybe you're
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Speaker 5: just starting out. You've got the ideas and you don't
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Speaker 5: even know where to start. We can help everybody at
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Speaker 5: any place in their writing journey, Jesse.
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Speaker 3: Big news in your world, big news in my world.
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Speaker 1: Well, by the time this comes out, I will have
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Speaker 1: done my little Tolkien present.
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Speaker 4: Oh that is so cool. Talk about that.
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Speaker 1: Yes, I'll talk about something that's going to happen in
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Speaker 1: the future.
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Speaker 4: In the past, I did Great Red.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, this book related. Yes, I'm talking about one of
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Speaker 1: my favorite stories of all time, the Hobbit, the world
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Speaker 1: Tolkien created, and the closest I will get to talking
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Speaker 1: about writing is talking about how Tolien wrote So how again,
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Speaker 1: how he turned a children's story into one of the
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Speaker 1: most well formed, world built fantasy world building projects that
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Speaker 1: anyone's ever ever pulled off. Sort of launched fantasy as
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Speaker 1: a genre and sort of modern fantasy, I guess. And
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Speaker 1: so for people in Tulsa, you'll be seeing me post
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Speaker 1: about it on Facebook a lot. So, so it's gonna
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Speaker 1: go great.
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Speaker 3: I'm very excited about fantastic. Okay, our interview today is
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Speaker 3: with friend of the podcast Lauren Smith. She's the USA
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Speaker 3: Today best seller and award winning author of many, many
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Speaker 3: best selling romance novels in more romantic subgenres than I
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Speaker 3: knew existed. She has won multiple awards, and several of those.
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Speaker 3: She was a twenty eighteen read a finalist at the
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Speaker 3: Romance Writers of America contest, and if you're not include
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Speaker 3: into that world, I'll just.
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Speaker 4: Tell you that was a big deal.
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Speaker 3: She had another wonderful novel that was a finalist in
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Speaker 3: the Oklahoma Book Awards this year, the Karen Feeding of Rogues,
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Speaker 3: a book that involves not only romance but Sherlock Holmes.
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Speaker 4: How cool is that?
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Speaker 2: Yes?
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Speaker 5: How would you not love that book?
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Speaker 4: So, and she's going to speak.
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Speaker 3: You're going to be there for part of the retreat,
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Speaker 3: and she'll be at the writer con conferences fall too.
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Speaker 3: All right, looking forward to talking to Lauren. But first,
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Speaker 3: the news news story number one. This may be a
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Speaker 3: little bit hard to explain to people who don't read ebooks,
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Speaker 3: but those of you who do, and particularly those who
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Speaker 3: get their ebooks from Amazon, I think you'll understand why
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Speaker 3: this is big news because you can now purchase books
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Speaker 3: within the app, like within Kindle Like you're reading a
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Speaker 3: book and like it, and you want to buy the
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Speaker 3: next one in the series. This has happened to me
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Speaker 3: more than once. And you can find the book page
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Speaker 3: on your iPad or whatever, but you can't buy the
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Speaker 3: book there. You've got to go get into your computer
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Speaker 3: and go. You used to have to go someplace else
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Speaker 3: to buy the book. And the reason for that turns
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Speaker 3: out to be because they were trying to avoid Apple
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Speaker 3: seur charges. But now that's no longer an issue you
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Speaker 3: following a ruling in the case of Epic Games versus Apple,
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Speaker 3: where a Judge Rogers ruled that Apple can no longer
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Speaker 3: collect that commission on purchases or restrict how developers can
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Speaker 3: direct users to alternate payment options, like other than paying
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Speaker 3: through Apple. That's of course on appeal, but for now,
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Speaker 3: you can buy books on the book page within your
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Speaker 3: Kindle device or Kindle app on some other device. And
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Speaker 3: in fact, Jesse's got a graphic. You can now see
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Speaker 3: here's a Stephen King page. But now at the bottom
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Speaker 3: there's a big orange box that says get book, which
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Speaker 3: certainly makes life easier. Well, that's a result of this
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Speaker 3: legal action. Now, Laura, you read on your iPad virtually.
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Speaker 5: Every night, every day, not virtually every single day.
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Speaker 4: Okay, is this good news?
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Speaker 5: I don't even know if you remember this, but do
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Speaker 5: you not remember when I came to you? It was like,
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Speaker 5: what am I? What am I doing wrong? It won't
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Speaker 5: let me. We'll let me get the book here, won't
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Speaker 5: let me. I was sure that it was some fault
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Speaker 5: of mine, that I was doing something wrong, because it
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Speaker 5: just seemed inceivable to me that it would let me
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Speaker 5: see those books. And I kept getting the message you
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Speaker 5: can't buy it this way, and I thought it was bizarre.
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Speaker 5: So I kept trying to fix it and you. I
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Speaker 5: went to you, and you said, no, that's just the
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Speaker 5: way that it is. You'll have to keep getting them
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Speaker 5: run your account on your computer for now. So I do.
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Speaker 2: I think it's easy.
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Speaker 5: There have been a number of times when it's you know,
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Speaker 5: the very next book is right there, and I want
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Speaker 5: to go on and get it. I kind of got
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Speaker 5: around that because I could download the sample. I download
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Speaker 5: the sample and start reading it. But now I can
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Speaker 5: just get the book.
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Speaker 3: Much better now, Jesse, you're also a big ebook reader, right,
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Speaker 3: So is this the start of our revolution or bringing
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Speaker 3: down big Apple.
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Speaker 1: I mean this, I mean this lawsuit. But by the way,
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Speaker 1: thank you Fortnite. Like this lawsuit exists because of Fortnite. Yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 1: Apple charging this huge fee for nothing, Like Apple doesn't
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Speaker 1: do anything here, right, and what they did, and the
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Speaker 1: reason why this particular judgment happened was because Apple technically
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Speaker 1: let people buy things off the app store, but put
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Speaker 1: all these horrific messages up about how it wasn't secure
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Speaker 1: and blah blah blah, making terrifying people that they're going
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Speaker 1: to get their credit destroy. Yeah, and yeah, it's ridiculous
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Speaker 1: that Apple was charging this much for a service that
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Speaker 1: you're asking for from another party. As an as an
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Speaker 1: Amazon Kindle user, this wasn't a huge problem for me.
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Speaker 1: But but if I was like looking, if I was
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Speaker 1: in the Amazon app on my Android phone, I still
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Speaker 1: also couldn't buy the book, So like Android also has
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Speaker 1: this problem. Now that this is good news, This is
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Speaker 1: good news.
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Speaker 4: For everybody, great, great, all right.
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Speaker 3: News Story number two has to deal with an emerging
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Speaker 3: form of therapy called bibliotherapy, which says that basically reading
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Speaker 3: can improve your health. Is this really news to you?
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Speaker 3: Reading as a hobby? Is I think inherently a moment
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Speaker 3: of self care. Every time you start to read, your relax.
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Speaker 3: That's why when you try and do it at bedtime
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Speaker 3: you fall asleep. After about a page and a half,
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Speaker 3: you slow down and relax into a story. But according
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Speaker 3: to bibliotherapy, the practice of using literature to heal, this
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Speaker 3: can also be beneficial to your mental health. And there's
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Speaker 3: a new book out by a clinical social worker named
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Speaker 3: Emily Rumble and practitioner of bibliotherapy. She's a psychotherapist and
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Speaker 3: professor at Queen's College in New York, and she says
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Speaker 3: she first encountered this idea when she was in London
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Speaker 3: and went to a place called Poetry Pharmacy, which sold
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Speaker 3: books chosen to address your mood or emotional ailment. Well,
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Speaker 3: now that's what she's basically practicing. And she's written a
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Speaker 3: book called Bibliotherapy in the Bronx that's out from Simon
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Speaker 3: and Schuster. And you know, maybe it sounds like a
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Speaker 3: kind of buzzy wellness trend or something people would talk
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Speaker 3: about in TikTok, but she argues that this just makes
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Speaker 3: total sense because after all, we have always, since the
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Speaker 3: dawn of recorded time, we've been using storytelling to make
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Speaker 3: sense of the world right to figure out who we
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Speaker 3: are and where we've been and where we might go
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Speaker 3: in the future. That's why books that have characters we
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Speaker 3: can relate to usually, you know, do seem like better books, Right, Lara,
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Speaker 3: do you practice bibliotherapy?
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Speaker 5: I have never called it that. I have absolutely since childhood,
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Speaker 5: and I can tell you that I recognized this at
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Speaker 5: a very young age. I witnessed something very horrific once
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Speaker 5: and was literally shaking and went back to my room
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Speaker 5: and didn't know how to cope with it. So I
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Speaker 5: sat down and read a book. I was very young,
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Speaker 5: and I can remember it was a Clifford the Big
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Speaker 5: Red Dog book. That's how young I was. And yet
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Speaker 5: when it was over, I could breathe easy. It had
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Speaker 5: calmed me down. It didn't change that this horrible thing
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Speaker 5: had happened, but I felt better about it, and I
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Speaker 5: remembered that, and I used it growing up when I
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Speaker 5: was coping with you, trying to deal with something that
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Speaker 5: maybe I couldn't cope with yet, or just needed something
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Speaker 5: that helped my mental health health for thirty minutes an hour.
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Speaker 5: I do always read before I fall asleep, and I
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Speaker 5: make it farther than a page it's just again, I've
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Speaker 5: been doing that since I was a child as well
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Speaker 5: that I've absolutely sought solace in the pages of books
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Speaker 5: for about as long as I can remember.
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Speaker 3: Come on, how many times does that iPad hit you
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Speaker 3: in the nose waking you up?
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Speaker 5: Usually myself that does happen.
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Speaker 3: Time.
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Speaker 5: That's happened a time or two, for sure, But usually
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Speaker 5: I feel myself starting to not off and I give
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Speaker 5: it up. But that's fifteen twenty thirty minutes after I've
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Speaker 5: been reading.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's nice, Jesse.
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Speaker 3: You know everybody you talk to, here's the thing. Everybody
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Speaker 3: says they'd like to read more. But the trick, of
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Speaker 3: course is finding time when you can integrate that into
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Speaker 3: your busy life. Do you have any suggestions.
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Speaker 1: Take really long flights.
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Speaker 2: I read.
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Speaker 3: I thought it was going to be soaking a hot tub,
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Speaker 3: but to.
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Speaker 1: Listen, get a waterproof you reader, buy a hot tub
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Speaker 1: and just get in there and read. There's nothing more
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Speaker 1: enjoyable to me on past writer con cruises than taking
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Speaker 1: my kindle out to the hot tub.
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Speaker 4: It's great.
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Speaker 1: I mean, you have to make it part of your routine.
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Speaker 1: Like the people who read before bed. It becomes part
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Speaker 1: of the thing. You do to calm down if you're
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Speaker 1: reading things that are relaxing and not stressful to you.
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Speaker 1: So you know, there's a downside to that. When you're
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Speaker 1: reading like an epic long fantasy, say Brandon Samson type book,
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Speaker 1: and you get to the denument at one o'clock in
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Speaker 1: the morning and then you stay up till three to
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Speaker 1: finish it, that's not great, but you do feel better
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Speaker 1: once you've done reading. You don't feel great the next day.
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Speaker 5: So fally, people keep all kinds of apps on their phones. Now,
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Speaker 5: you know, people keep like meditation apps or you know,
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Speaker 5: call me down apps or shopping apps. You can have
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Speaker 5: the Kindle app or whatever you like to read on
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Speaker 5: your phone. It can be right there on you at
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Speaker 5: all times, waiting in a waiting for an appointment, or
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Speaker 5: really anywhere true lunch break, whatever. You just pop on
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Speaker 5: there and read a little bit.
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Speaker 4: All right.
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Speaker 3: This time in Craft Corner we have the second actually
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Speaker 3: in a series from our friend John Myers on fiction writing.
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Speaker 3: Today it's topic today's topic is about choosing setting deliberately,
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Speaker 3: not just because that's where you live or the first
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Speaker 3: thing that popped into your head, but strategically and deliberately
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Speaker 3: take it away.
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Speaker 4: John Craft Corner.
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Speaker 6: Hey everybody, welcome to writer CON's Craft Corner. I'm John
14:44
Speaker 6: Myers from Write Better Together. You may notice that my
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Speaker 6: business partner, Emily Brooks, she's not here. She's not on vacation.
14:51
Speaker 6: Emily and her husband are preparing to have a baby,
14:54
Speaker 6: so she couldn't be here today. But speaking of vacation,
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Speaker 6: have you ever noticed how you act differently on vacation
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Speaker 6: they need to do at home. In fact, we all
15:02
Speaker 6: act differently in different settings. You will act differently in church,
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Speaker 6: or in a taxi cab, or in a writer's conference
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Speaker 6: than you do in your own kitchen. Well, your characters
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Speaker 6: should do the same thing. They will act differently depending
15:17
Speaker 6: on the setting that they're in. And today I want
15:19
Speaker 6: to talk about settings of specific scenes and films because
15:23
Speaker 6: I'm a screenwriter, or passages and books because I'm also
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Speaker 6: a novelist, and not the overall arching location or setting.
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Speaker 6: Not you know how Nashville is a character in the
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Speaker 6: movie Nashville, or the Mores of Wuthering Heights, But actually
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Speaker 6: the choices that you make to set a specific scene
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Speaker 6: in a specific place. First, let me tell you how
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Speaker 6: I wound up coming up with this topic. Right now,
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Speaker 6: I am adapting a sitcom script into a novel and
15:56
Speaker 6: it'll be finished by the time we get to a
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Speaker 6: writer con in September. And when you write a script,
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Speaker 6: you have constraints of budget, right, so you try to
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Speaker 6: limit locations. Well, in a novel, I don't have a budget,
16:07
Speaker 6: so I don't have to limit the number of locations.
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Speaker 6: I don't have to limit where those locations are, and
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Speaker 6: so it became super freeing to me, and it also
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Speaker 6: made me focus more on where each scene happened. There
16:19
Speaker 6: needs to be an important conversation, so for some reason,
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Speaker 6: new writers put them in a coffee shop, or they
16:24
Speaker 6: put them in a restaurant or a diner. You can
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Speaker 6: put it anywhere, so why not put it in a
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Speaker 6: specific setting where the setting imbues the scene or the
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Speaker 6: passage with even more meaning. Toy Stray three comes to
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Speaker 6: mind when the toys wind up in the dump and
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Speaker 6: these discarded toys are now in the garbage. They could
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Speaker 6: have been just put away in a drawer somewhere, but
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Speaker 6: it wouldn't be the same. Or on a bigger picture,
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Speaker 6: when the dogs in a Wes Anderson's Olive Dogs get
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Speaker 6: cast off into junk island. They literally land and are
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Speaker 6: dumped in amongst the junk. I'll give you one more
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Speaker 6: in love. Actually, the scene that we all know controversial,
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Speaker 6: some say now these days, but the scene that we
17:03
Speaker 6: all know with the Q cards that are held up
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Speaker 6: in the doorway. Doorways are liminal spaces. They're not outside,
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Speaker 6: they're not inside. The fact that it's in an the
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Speaker 6: liminal space of a doorway, a space that is neither
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Speaker 6: here nor there, betwixt inside and outside. Speaking of neutral spaces,
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Speaker 6: a little bit different than liminal spaces, I'll give you
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Speaker 6: an example from The Great Gatsby, the confrontation in the
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Speaker 6: hotel room between Tom and Gatsby. There's a reason why
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Speaker 6: that's set in a hotel room. It's neutral ground in
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Speaker 6: New York City, so away from West Egg where Gatsby
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Speaker 6: is supposedly the master of his own domain. It kind
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Speaker 6: of contrasts the difference between the old money of Tom
17:42
Speaker 6: and the new money of Gatsby. But I want to
17:45
Speaker 6: specifically focus in on the hotel room. What does a
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Speaker 6: hotel room represent? It represents transience. There's an inherent temporariness
17:56
Speaker 6: and permanence to hotel rooms. You don't live there. Next
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Speaker 6: of all, it's a confined space of truth. Hotel rooms
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Speaker 6: in literature are faces of truth where you say things
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Speaker 6: in a hotel room, where your characters say things in
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Speaker 6: a hotel room that you would never say at a
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Speaker 6: big party at one of Gatsabe's big party because of
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Speaker 6: the social decorum, where you certainly wouldn't say in a
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Speaker 6: public space. Truths come out in hotel rooms. So that
18:23
Speaker 6: part of the book couldn't have happened anywhere else and
18:27
Speaker 6: still been as effective. I want to end this by
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Speaker 6: contrasting that what I just said about public spaces. So
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Speaker 6: think of the end of Sophia Coppola's Lost in Translation,
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Speaker 6: after Bill Murray gets out of the taxicab and he's
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Speaker 6: walking through the streets of Tokyo because he sees Scarjo.
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Speaker 6: He sees Scarlet Johansson off in the distance, and then
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Speaker 6: when he reaches her, it's the hustle and bustle of Tokyo,
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Speaker 6: but it's one of the most memorable intimate scenes ever
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Speaker 6: when they kiss and he whispers something in her ear.
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Speaker 6: Now that could have happened in the taxiicab could have
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Speaker 6: happened in a hotel room. So contrasts that to the
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Speaker 6: Tom and Gat speak confrontation in a hotel room. We
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Speaker 6: have this intimate moment and it's in a public space
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Speaker 6: where people are zooming in and out in the commotion
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Speaker 6: of Tokyo, and that contrast is what makes that scene
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Speaker 6: so memorable. Now, tell us in the comments below about
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Speaker 6: a scene or a passage that you wrote in a
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Speaker 6: setting that you are particularly proud of, And if you
19:28
Speaker 6: can't think of one right away, take something from your
19:30
Speaker 6: work in progress, change the setting in it, and then
19:34
Speaker 6: tell us why you think the new setting that you
19:36
Speaker 6: chose works better for that passage.
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Speaker 4: Thanks everybody, Thank you so much, John Myers.
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Speaker 3: Now let's talk to Laurence Smith. Laurence Smith, welcome back
19:54
Speaker 3: to the podcast.
19:55
Speaker 2: I'm glad to be back, all right.
19:58
Speaker 4: I think you know.
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Speaker 3: That we have a traditional first question, and you've probably
20:03
Speaker 3: already answered it a couple of times, but I'll do
20:05
Speaker 3: it again since you're back with us again today. If
20:09
Speaker 3: you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would
20:12
Speaker 3: it be?
20:14
Speaker 2: I think as we move into these really changing times
20:18
Speaker 2: with AI coming on the scene and different author tools
20:22
Speaker 2: just being available, and the ability for authors to take
20:25
Speaker 2: ownership of not just their books but their careers. I
20:28
Speaker 2: would caution you to say, don't limit yourself to just
20:31
Speaker 2: viewing yourself as an author, and rather, I would say
20:33
Speaker 2: open yourself up to the mindset that you are a
20:36
Speaker 2: CEO of your business, and it should not be scary.
20:38
Speaker 2: It should be exciting that you have the control and
20:41
Speaker 2: you have the ability to enact your own vision in
20:44
Speaker 2: your future. And just be excited about that CEO position
20:47
Speaker 2: you have.
20:48
Speaker 4: That's great advice. I love that, all right.
20:51
Speaker 3: And this is coming, ladies and gentlemen from someone who's
20:54
Speaker 3: written what nineties something? How many books have you got
20:57
Speaker 3: in prints?
20:58
Speaker 2: Ninety?
20:59
Speaker 4: Exactly?
21:00
Speaker 3: I should be on one of those carnival guessing games.
21:04
Speaker 3: Exactly ninety fantastic. But I also know you have a
21:08
Speaker 3: legal background and went to like me too, and you
21:12
Speaker 3: practiced law for several years. How'd you end up writing books?
21:17
Speaker 2: I have always wanted to write since the third grade,
21:20
Speaker 2: but I was raised by a banker and a lawyer,
21:22
Speaker 2: and they both said, well, you need to have a
21:23
Speaker 2: day job before you can do this other thing. So
21:26
Speaker 2: you need to basically, in other words, work really hard.
21:29
Speaker 2: Because they never wanted me to think that writing was
21:32
Speaker 2: just staying at home and kind of living off of
21:33
Speaker 2: them or you know the proverbial live in your you know,
21:36
Speaker 2: mom's basement. They were like, you need to go out,
21:38
Speaker 2: you need to earn your way. But at the same
21:40
Speaker 2: time they were very supportive and they said, you know,
21:42
Speaker 2: once this gained traction and if you're able to financially
21:45
Speaker 2: support yourself, then we back whatever decision you can do.
21:48
Speaker 2: So I always had the support that I needed, but
21:51
Speaker 2: they instilled that sense of responsibility to take care of
21:54
Speaker 2: myself first and have you know, the day job to
21:56
Speaker 2: get me through until I could pursue it. But that
21:59
Speaker 2: does mean a lot of hard work, you know, so
22:00
Speaker 2: you have to It's a lot of late nights burning
22:02
Speaker 2: the candle at both ends. But you know, if you
22:04
Speaker 2: really love writing, it speaks to you and you'll do
22:06
Speaker 2: that extra work.
22:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, but since you have that legal background, you could
22:12
Speaker 3: be writing legal thrillers, although you shouldn't because it's a
22:16
Speaker 3: really crowded field and we don't need any more competition.
22:19
Speaker 2: But I want. I find legal thrillers super intimidating. I
22:22
Speaker 2: just would be so worried that I wouldn't get it right,
22:24
Speaker 2: and all the lawyers I know would read it and
22:25
Speaker 2: be like, well, you know, the do process situation here
22:28
Speaker 2: or the way that the court I want to be like,
22:30
Speaker 2: oh no, oh, no.
22:31
Speaker 4: Oh, trust me, you get that anyway.
22:34
Speaker 3: You know, is there some guy in New York saying
22:36
Speaker 3: that's not the way the law works in Oklahoma?
22:38
Speaker 4: I'm like, go away, as if you know. But you've
22:45
Speaker 4: chosen the field of romance. How did that come about?
22:48
Speaker 2: Well, it was sort of a twofold thing. I was
22:51
Speaker 2: actually in firmly believing I was going to write high fantasy,
22:55
Speaker 2: you know, Game of Thrones, Wheel of Time, that kind
22:57
Speaker 2: of thing, and a wonderful writing partner who was just
23:00
Speaker 2: a very smart woman who just had a bigger sense
23:03
Speaker 2: of the world than I was. Young at this point,
23:05
Speaker 2: I was in my early twenties, and she was reading
23:07
Speaker 2: one of my manuscripts for a critique group that we
23:09
Speaker 2: were going to and she said, honey, you know you
23:11
Speaker 2: write romance, right, And I looked at her as if
23:14
Speaker 2: she had slapped me, because I thought, I've never read romance.
23:16
Speaker 2: I don't want to write romance. It was this foreign
23:19
Speaker 2: world to me. I had no exposure to it. I
23:21
Speaker 2: had just sort of that preconceived notion of how silly
23:23
Speaker 2: it was. It was just, you know, not real fiction,
23:27
Speaker 2: not real books. And so she just handed me a
23:29
Speaker 2: Nora Roberts and she said, read this and get back
23:31
Speaker 2: to me. And I read the book and I went, oh,
23:33
Speaker 2: my gosh, romance is just real stories and happens to
23:36
Speaker 2: have sex in it, which is very much like real life,
23:38
Speaker 2: and it's fun. And I went, why have I been
23:40
Speaker 2: misjudging this genre the whole time? So as I started
23:42
Speaker 2: doing research, I then learned to my joy that romance reading,
23:47
Speaker 2: you know, those are the most voracious readers. They read
23:49
Speaker 2: three to five to sometimes eight books a week. I mean,
23:52
Speaker 2: they are hungry for words. So if you're looking for
23:55
Speaker 2: a way to make a career, develop a diehard fanship,
23:58
Speaker 2: you know, romance is where it's at. And of course
24:00
Speaker 2: they outsell everything else there. You know. I think they're
24:03
Speaker 2: easily probably a four point billion dollar industry now. Several
24:07
Speaker 2: years ago they were two point eight, so I'm assuming
24:09
Speaker 2: in the last decade it's it's even grown, you know.
24:11
Speaker 2: So I just thought, well, this is this is a
24:14
Speaker 2: win win here because I like this and I like
24:16
Speaker 2: to write it now and I like to read it,
24:18
Speaker 2: so it sells. I'm like, that's the perfect solution, right.
24:22
Speaker 4: Right, right, fantastic.
24:24
Speaker 5: All right, tell us about the Rogue series.
24:28
Speaker 2: So I have the Lega Rogues, which is my series
24:31
Speaker 2: that is now nineteen books and it is my best
24:35
Speaker 2: selling series. So if you're coming to writer Con, be
24:38
Speaker 2: sure to come to that because I'm going to do
24:40
Speaker 2: a workshop on writing an addictive series, and I will
24:42
Speaker 2: talk about the mechanics of you know, why authors should
24:45
Speaker 2: consider series when possible, how do you you know, how
24:48
Speaker 2: do you structure that, how do you plan for Even
24:49
Speaker 2: if you're not a planner and you're you know, pants
24:52
Speaker 2: are like me, who I write by the seat of
24:53
Speaker 2: my pants, there's still a way you can approach crafting
24:56
Speaker 2: a series, crafting your characters, your world, and then that
25:00
Speaker 2: can really really make sales for you and build that
25:02
Speaker 2: die hard readership. So it definitely come to my talk
25:04
Speaker 2: at writer Con in August. I'll be discussing that.
25:07
Speaker 4: It means you have to be at writer Con. I'll
25:09
Speaker 4: just point out when.
25:10
Speaker 2: You come to writer Con. But you know, I think
25:13
Speaker 2: that's the thing about series is that the League of
25:14
Speaker 2: Rose is just really really it's a tightly woven world
25:19
Speaker 2: of characters and that they're on the page a lot.
25:22
Speaker 2: You know, you don't have to say goodbye. The readers
25:24
Speaker 2: know that these characters will keep coming back even though
25:26
Speaker 2: they've been the stars of previous books. And I think
25:29
Speaker 2: that just makes it really, really fun. And I've even
25:31
Speaker 2: expanded this sort of concept now to writing other series
25:35
Speaker 2: in the same way. And so I started, you know,
25:38
Speaker 2: actually what I did was on accident. Essentially, My League
25:41
Speaker 2: of Rose was an accidental thing that became the super
25:44
Speaker 2: successful situation. And now I go forward and my writer
25:47
Speaker 2: planning by planning series with that mindset now, and I
25:52
Speaker 2: just have to.
25:52
Speaker 3: Jump in and point out one of those Rogues books
25:54
Speaker 3: was just nominated for the Oklahoma Book Award, right, Yes, yes,
26:00
Speaker 3: the Karen Feeding Feeding of Rogues, And am I right?
26:03
Speaker 3: And that when you blend the romance not plot with
26:07
Speaker 3: Sherlock Holmes.
26:09
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a really and it just goes to show
26:13
Speaker 2: you how sometimes being a pantster can be absolutely magical.
26:17
Speaker 2: Because I had this, you know, scientist heroine who was
26:20
Speaker 2: living on Baker Street and she just happens to be
26:23
Speaker 2: the neighbor of Sherlock Holmes and he challenges her to
26:28
Speaker 2: you know, study men and get into a wager, and
26:31
Speaker 2: it became this fun thing that then leads to this
26:33
Speaker 2: mystery and suspense element. So it's just it's just a
26:36
Speaker 2: fun story.
26:38
Speaker 5: That sounds very fun. Do you have real life inspiration
26:43
Speaker 5: for some of your characters.
26:47
Speaker 3: That you, as a lawyer, are willing to admit here
26:50
Speaker 3: on on a life program?
26:55
Speaker 4: You know?
26:56
Speaker 2: I get asked that a lot, and I would say
26:59
Speaker 2: that most of my carecharacters are really inspired and come
27:02
Speaker 2: from different facets of my own personality. It's more I
27:06
Speaker 2: look and think, how would I react in this situation
27:10
Speaker 2: under these different conditions, with this background, So I really
27:13
Speaker 2: do insert myself into sort of like pretending to be
27:17
Speaker 2: this other character. And even with my male heroes, in
27:19
Speaker 2: some ways, my male heroes are almost more me than
27:22
Speaker 2: my heroines because I really really work on the male
27:24
Speaker 2: character side of things. But I did write one book
27:27
Speaker 2: that did have real world based characters in it, and
27:30
Speaker 2: that was The Wartime Matchmakers that came out in twenty
27:32
Speaker 2: twenty two, which is a World War II romance, and
27:35
Speaker 2: I fictionalized the names and changed some life details, but
27:39
Speaker 2: it's about the two women who started London's first dating agency,
27:42
Speaker 2: and their business was called the Marriage Bureau, and they
27:44
Speaker 2: sort they pioneered this entire matchmaking concept. Which before had
27:49
Speaker 2: not been done by anybody, but sort of like jokingly
27:51
Speaker 2: the matronly ants who would sort of couple people together.
27:54
Speaker 2: So they made an actual science out of it. And
27:56
Speaker 2: I read their biographies, read their story of how they
27:59
Speaker 2: got their business started, and then you know, took what
28:02
Speaker 2: I really loved about the truth of that story and
28:04
Speaker 2: then just added in some extra fun stuff. So those
28:06
Speaker 2: are probably the only two characters I were really based
28:09
Speaker 2: on real people.
28:11
Speaker 3: That's cool, though, I should have said a second ago
28:14
Speaker 3: when we were talking about writer Con, meaning the conference
28:17
Speaker 3: that's Labor Day weekend every year. But you're also going
28:19
Speaker 3: to come for part of the retreat, the Cane Break
28:21
Speaker 3: Retreat in July, right, because you did last year and
28:24
Speaker 3: you're coming back this year. This isn't the first time
28:27
Speaker 3: I've mentioned this, right, We've talked about this. You're coming out,
28:31
Speaker 3: you're on the website.
28:32
Speaker 4: I know so, and you.
28:34
Speaker 3: Probably haven't even given any thought to what you're going
28:36
Speaker 3: to say, but ten like you have and any reflection
28:42
Speaker 3: on what you're going to do at Came and Break.
28:44
Speaker 2: Well, I think since cam Break is such a nice
28:47
Speaker 2: sort of intimate atmosphere where I can really sort of
28:50
Speaker 2: have an ability to speak to people on kind of
28:53
Speaker 2: a more close relationship basis. I've decided I'm going to
28:56
Speaker 2: sort of, for the first time I ever really talked
28:58
Speaker 2: about my publishing journey, because I think, you know, it's
29:01
Speaker 2: important not to compare your journey against other peoples. But
29:04
Speaker 2: I am very good about talking about what worked, what didn't,
29:09
Speaker 2: why I chose to do what I did, and what
29:11
Speaker 2: I've learned from it. And I think it's important to
29:13
Speaker 2: sort of just know that there's a million different paths
29:15
Speaker 2: to your dream, and there's a million different ways and
29:17
Speaker 2: tools and situations, and you know that even if you
29:21
Speaker 2: fall flat on your face, as long as you fall forward,
29:23
Speaker 2: you're headed in the right direction. And I've really taken
29:25
Speaker 2: that to heart with my own career, and I don't
29:27
Speaker 2: mind sharing the highs and the lows, and I think
29:30
Speaker 2: it's good to sort of keep that in perspective that way,
29:32
Speaker 2: when you know, writing a book is hard, publishing a
29:35
Speaker 2: book is terrifying, and it's you know, how do you
29:37
Speaker 2: get over those hurdles that that fear can create. And
29:39
Speaker 2: I sort of just want to break down the process
29:41
Speaker 2: and tell people that it's it's not as scary even
29:44
Speaker 2: when you think you're failing, so there's always success just
29:47
Speaker 2: there right there. You just got to reach for.
29:48
Speaker 3: It sounds like the perfect compliment all the workshopping and
29:54
Speaker 3: small group work and so forth.
29:56
Speaker 2: I love it.
29:57
Speaker 5: I love it because it's it's so easy to get
30:00
Speaker 5: into our own heads around social media and all anybody
30:03
Speaker 5: ever does there is post look at this, I won
30:06
Speaker 5: this award, I won this, I won that. Everything's great,
30:10
Speaker 5: and it's I think it's important to hear that there's
30:13
Speaker 5: typically something else going on too. It's not all sunshine
30:17
Speaker 5: and roses.
30:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's. I mean when I do workshops
30:21
Speaker 2: every year and you hear from the six figure, seven
30:23
Speaker 2: figure authors and they're saying, I woke out of bed
30:26
Speaker 2: one morning and I wrote this series and then it
30:27
Speaker 2: magically in three months, became a bestseller, and I paid
30:30
Speaker 2: off my mortgage in two months. And you're thinking that
30:33
Speaker 2: doesn't happen to most of us. You know, most of
30:35
Speaker 2: us don't have that luck. My entire career has not
30:39
Speaker 2: been luck, and instead it has just been showing up
30:42
Speaker 2: for the work every day. And I think that people
30:45
Speaker 2: who are like that, and there's a lot of us
30:47
Speaker 2: out there, just the daily show up types. We need
30:50
Speaker 2: to know that what we're doing is good and that
30:51
Speaker 2: we just need to hang in there and that that
30:53
Speaker 2: hard work does pay off great.
30:57
Speaker 5: So how do you approach a new project? You mentioned
31:00
Speaker 5: already that you are a pantser, not a planner, so
31:04
Speaker 5: we know there's no outline for you.
31:07
Speaker 2: Do you make notes? Like how do you get started?
31:10
Speaker 5: You just open the laptop, open a word document and
31:13
Speaker 5: go or something else.
31:15
Speaker 2: It's actually even more interesting in some ways than that.
31:19
Speaker 2: If you can see behind me right here, those are
31:21
Speaker 2: all blank notebooks, and I actually handwrite all of my
31:24
Speaker 2: rough drafts, and then I use education software too to
31:27
Speaker 2: record everything. So there is this element of magic to handwriting,
31:32
Speaker 2: and it takes away for me. The blinking cursor can
31:35
Speaker 2: be intimidating. When I see a blinking cursor, I think
31:38
Speaker 2: of research papers. I think of college and law school,
31:41
Speaker 2: which is I had no problem jumping in on those
31:44
Speaker 2: assignments and my left side of my brain which just
31:46
Speaker 2: turn right on and they've done. You know, tons of
31:48
Speaker 2: studies about you know, typing is a left brain activity.
31:52
Speaker 2: Handwriting that the way the hand moves when you write
31:54
Speaker 2: is a right brain activity. So I just feel more
31:57
Speaker 2: comfortable sort of doing it. The super old school way,
32:00
Speaker 2: don't feel the pressure. It lets me pause, It lets
32:02
Speaker 2: my sentences breathe while I sit, and I will usually,
32:06
Speaker 2: you know, I will know where I'm going to start
32:07
Speaker 2: the story. I know, usually almost to the last line,
32:10
Speaker 2: how I'm going to end it, and I know just
32:12
Speaker 2: kind of some events along the way, and as things
32:14
Speaker 2: kind of pop up, I'll make little notes in the
32:16
Speaker 2: margins above the chapters that I'm writing.
32:18
Speaker 4: I do that too. I do that.
32:20
Speaker 2: That's where you're like, this line needs to happen, and
32:22
Speaker 2: then you know, if it doesn't happened for like seven chapters,
32:25
Speaker 2: you keep writing it in the next chapter. You start
32:27
Speaker 2: to just keep the momentum of like I need to
32:29
Speaker 2: remember to include this line. But it really is sort
32:32
Speaker 2: of just this. It's weird. I almost call it like
32:36
Speaker 2: a religious experience where you're just papping into this greater
32:39
Speaker 2: sense of something when you're in that mindset and you
32:42
Speaker 2: can just really let yourself be in that story and
32:46
Speaker 2: it just flows. And I know I'm very, very lucky
32:49
Speaker 2: and how that works. But I think also it's a
32:51
Speaker 2: part of practice. I read a really good book by
32:54
Speaker 2: cal Newport called Deep Work, and he discussed how to
32:58
Speaker 2: you know, quiet your universe, quiet your mind, give yourself
33:01
Speaker 2: an ability to sit in a place and create that
33:05
Speaker 2: deeper work, which is what writing really is, is that
33:07
Speaker 2: deeper work.
33:10
Speaker 5: And you talk about showing up and just keep coming
33:13
Speaker 5: back and being consistent. Will you share with us what
33:17
Speaker 5: a typical writing day looks like for you?
33:20
Speaker 2: Sure?
33:21
Speaker 4: So?
33:21
Speaker 2: I typically, you know, the brain is like a muscle.
33:23
Speaker 2: You want to exercise it every day, and that writing
33:26
Speaker 2: is really a part of that. So I try to
33:28
Speaker 2: make sure at least five days a week that I'm
33:32
Speaker 2: writing anywhere from five hundred to twenty five hundred words
33:35
Speaker 2: a day to just be consistent. So even if I'm
33:37
Speaker 2: like today is not a really strong writing day, I
33:39
Speaker 2: know my peak mental hours, where I feel the most alert,
33:43
Speaker 2: where I feel the most ready, is between ten and
33:45
Speaker 2: two pm. So I try to make sure that by
33:47
Speaker 2: ten am or ten thirty I am at a Starbucks
33:50
Speaker 2: or a coffee place. Because I found that I like
33:52
Speaker 2: the energy around me. I just put my headphones on
33:54
Speaker 2: so noises don't distract me. I have my playlist, but
33:57
Speaker 2: I like seeing people being active around me. But these
34:00
Speaker 2: are people who don't need me. They're not children, they're
34:02
Speaker 2: not dogs. They're not neighbors, are not laundry calling my name.
34:05
Speaker 2: You know, there's not you know, something going on. So
34:07
Speaker 2: it's important to like have the energy, but not energy
34:10
Speaker 2: that's going to require something of you. So I tend
34:13
Speaker 2: to like to write out in public spaces, and I'll
34:15
Speaker 2: work for a couple of hours, and then when I've
34:17
Speaker 2: sort of tapped out that creative energy, then I can
34:20
Speaker 2: transition into admin works. I'll usually come home and you know,
34:24
Speaker 2: get on you know, my computer again after I've had
34:26
Speaker 2: some time where I've run around, done laundry, walked my dog,
34:29
Speaker 2: done some exercises, you know, just kind of been mobile
34:32
Speaker 2: after you know, sitting for a couple hours, and then
34:34
Speaker 2: I focus on the admin work. So that's you know,
34:36
Speaker 2: updating book covers, changing prices, speaking with vendors, planning marketing,
34:42
Speaker 2: watching workshops because I'm even though I teach workshops, I'm
34:46
Speaker 2: always watching workshops. I'm constantly watching things, reading things. There's
34:51
Speaker 2: so much out there now that wasn't available when I
34:53
Speaker 2: was first getting started, and I've just always been a voracious,
34:57
Speaker 2: hungry learner, so you just never stop learning. So there's
34:59
Speaker 2: always that learning element too as part of the admin
35:02
Speaker 2: work and then I try to calm down in the
35:04
Speaker 2: evening and do something not writing related, like watch some
35:07
Speaker 2: TV shows, finish some more laundry folding, and just spend
35:09
Speaker 2: time with my family. Nice.
35:13
Speaker 5: You've shared some really great advice. Are there Is there
35:17
Speaker 5: something else you've learned on your your writing journey? I mean,
35:20
Speaker 5: my gosh, ninety books.
35:24
Speaker 2: It feels to me like we've just barely.
35:26
Speaker 5: Begun to plumb the depths of your knowledge. But is
35:29
Speaker 5: you know we are limited on time here? Is there
35:31
Speaker 5: something else that you might share it to say that just.
35:35
Speaker 2: Be prepared for the journey to have peaks and valleys.
35:39
Speaker 2: It is not a consistent graph chart where you see
35:41
Speaker 2: the line just go straight up into the corner. Nothing
35:44
Speaker 2: in the world is like that, and people, for some
35:46
Speaker 2: reason assume book careers should be exactly like that. You know,
35:50
Speaker 2: so I would just say that, you know, if you
35:52
Speaker 2: love this and if you deeply care about this as
35:54
Speaker 2: a career, you know, don't give up even when things
35:58
Speaker 2: are tough. Just hang in there. That's just the most
36:00
Speaker 2: important thing that I can say.
36:02
Speaker 5: No, I love your realistic approach. It's wonderful. I also
36:06
Speaker 5: get annoyed by those Yeah, it just launched into a
36:09
Speaker 5: million dollars overnight, and.
36:12
Speaker 2: That's time to hear that great advice of the population
36:17
Speaker 2: that has that in the writing world.
36:19
Speaker 4: Yeah, that much.
36:21
Speaker 3: That was terrific advice. Thank you, Lauren, and they look
36:25
Speaker 3: forward to seeing you at the writer Con Retreat which
36:28
Speaker 3: is mid July July sixteen through twentieth. That's not that
36:32
Speaker 3: along away anyway, don't you know.
36:35
Speaker 4: I got that.
36:36
Speaker 3: Go to the writer Con website. Lauren, thanks so much
36:39
Speaker 3: for being on the podcast.
36:41
Speaker 4: You're welco appreciate it all right, see you soon.
36:45
Speaker 2: Bye.
36:52
Speaker 3: Just a few parting words Laura mentioned earlier in the
36:56
Speaker 3: podcast the writer Con Retreat, which is in July sixteen
37:01
Speaker 3: through twenty Cane Break is a beautiful resort that I
37:06
Speaker 3: think is just the best place in the world for
37:08
Speaker 3: having these small group retreats. You know, when you're not
37:11
Speaker 3: in some kind of class, you can go walk in
37:14
Speaker 3: the forest or whatever you like to do. You've got
37:17
Speaker 3: a beautiful cabin where you can write and during those
37:22
Speaker 3: five days we can cover a lot of territory nowhere.
37:28
Speaker 3: No matter where you are now, you'll be further along
37:31
Speaker 3: after this five day retreat.
37:34
Speaker 5: Last year, I saw bunnies, deer, I'd get up in
37:37
Speaker 5: the mornings and go for a morning walks, bunnies, deer.
37:40
Speaker 5: There were chickens running all around. I had to get
37:43
Speaker 5: up and walk because they kept feeding us so well,
37:45
Speaker 5: and I had to make sure.
37:46
Speaker 4: That I was working. The food is terrific.
37:48
Speaker 5: The food is so good, and it's there. We all
37:51
Speaker 5: eat together, and there's a pool. There's a pool. We
37:54
Speaker 5: should get into the pool this year. And pickleball courts.
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Speaker 6: There's so much.
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Speaker 4: It's so fun.
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Speaker 3: I think I forgot to say this before. But in
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Speaker 3: case you're wondering where Cane Break is, that's in Wagner, Oklahoma.
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Speaker 3: It's like not even an hour from Tulsa, so you'd
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Speaker 3: fly in to Tulsa and go from there. It's on
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Speaker 3: a beautiful lake, Fort Gibson, and just a gorgeous inspirational
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Speaker 3: place to move forward in your writing journey. Okay, until
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Speaker 3: next time, keep writing and remember you cannot fail.
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Speaker 4: If you refuse to quit. See you next time.