Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Financial Abuse with Michelle Hoskin - Helping you spot the signs

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Financial Abuse with Michelle Hoskin - Helping you spot the signs · Financial Planner Life Podcast

0:04
SPEAKER_03: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life Podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advice.
0:17
SPEAKER_03: This podcast is proudly sponsored by Recruit UK, a recruitment consultancy specifically focused on the financial services.
0:25
SPEAKER_03: They have a niche specialism, recruiting, within the financial planning industry, so check out their website for the latest job opportunities, hints and tips, and blog articles.
0:38
SPEAKER_03: And today's guest is Michelle Hoskin from Standards International.
0:44
SPEAKER_03: You may know her as Little Miss Wow.
0:47
SPEAKER_03: She's been in the profession for quite some time now, dedicated to raising the standards internationally for the financial planning profession.
0:58
SPEAKER_03: She's responsible for the Power Planner Standard Certification, which is pioneering best practice among personal financial planners in the UK and overseas.
1:08
SPEAKER_03: And today we talk about one of her new standard certifications, which is the financial abuse specialist certificate and the important role that you within your financial planning firm can play, regardless of the position that you're in, in identifying and signposting clients to get support around financial abuse.
1:32
SPEAKER_03: We also talk about well-being within the workplace and the new standard certification that they are creating and setting for financial planning firms to improve the well-being of the staff within their business and how that can trickle down, of course, to the client experience.
1:52
SPEAKER_03: I thoroughly enjoyed talking to Michelle.
1:54
SPEAKER_03: She's a bundle of energy and positivity, and she is somebody that is certainly raising the standards within the financial planning profession.
2:03
SPEAKER_03: I hope you enjoy the podcast as much as I enjoyed talking to Michelle.
2:08
SPEAKER_03: Michelle, thank you so much for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life Podcast.
2:11
SPEAKER_03: How are you?
2:12
SPEAKER_01: I am absolutely wonderful.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: The sun is shining.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: And I went and did the school run this morning without a coat on.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: Did you?
2:18
SPEAKER_01: Today is a good day.
2:20
SPEAKER_03: Beautiful.
2:20
SPEAKER_03: How many kids you got?
2:21
SPEAKER_01: One.
2:22
SPEAKER_03: Just um me.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: That's enough.
2:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean me.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: A little miniature version of me is more than the world could possibly deal with.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, just go on.
2:32
SPEAKER_03: I think I've got a little miniature version of me, Isabella.
2:34
SPEAKER_03: Isabella Rose, she's an absolute dream.
2:37
SPEAKER_03: She's gorgeous.
2:37
SPEAKER_03: How old's your daughter?
2:38
SPEAKER_01: She's 11.
2:39
SPEAKER_03: Is she?
2:40
SPEAKER_03: Cool.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: Going on about 27 and a half, I would say.
2:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
2:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
2:45
SPEAKER_03: My daughter's obsessed with like wanting to be a teenager.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: And then it's rubbish when we get there.
2:52
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
2:52
SPEAKER_03: Got the thing she's going to give me.
2:54
SPEAKER_03: If I remember what I was like as a teenager, I destroyed my parents.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you what we need to do.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: We need to get your parents on this podcast.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: That's what we need to do.
3:02
SPEAKER_03: Do we do?
3:03
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
3:04
SPEAKER_03: Well, Michelle, listen, I'm so pleased to get you on the podcast.
3:07
SPEAKER_03: Throughout my sort of 15 years of working in financial services, the financial planning profession, recruiting into it, I've always seen you popping up, you know, whether it's in magazines, articles, LinkedIn, you know, you're always out there and you always seem to be having a very positive impact.
3:20
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, your name says it all, little miss wow.
3:23
SPEAKER_03: You know, you're here to sort of inspire and change and um look at the way people within financial planning are working and make it better.
3:31
SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm always sort of uh, you know, I always feel very positive when I see the stuff that you're working on.
3:37
SPEAKER_03: So it's really, really keen to get you on the podcast today.
3:39
SPEAKER_03: And of course, I had a conversation with a financial advisor, and she reached out to me because she's been listening to my podcast and she said a really interesting subject matter, Sam, should be about financial abuse.
3:52
SPEAKER_03: And we talked in detail about her experience of what she went to while she was going through her divorce, and that she realized that she was a victim of financial abuse.
4:01
SPEAKER_03: And she was working with you at the same time around the financial abuse qualification, and it just sounded so interesting.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:08
SPEAKER_03: Um, and financial well-being, the word well-being, how it's being adopted into financial planning to make it a completely different approach to how you sit down with clients.
4:17
SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that's at the forefront of everything that is being done in the financial planning profession at the moment.
4:21
SPEAKER_03: So, bringing you on, I think, to really get an understanding of what that financial abuse qualification is.
4:26
SPEAKER_03: So, if any listeners are interested in doing it, or just how they can position themselves differently as a financial advisor and what sort of level of responsibility they have to actually change people's lives without them even probably even knowing it.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
4:40
SPEAKER_03: Great.
4:41
SPEAKER_03: Well, Michelle, listen, um, first off, I always like to sort of find out a little bit about you, your background, how you got into the profession.
4:47
SPEAKER_03: So, could you give us a little bit of an overview of your journey of where you've gone in the profession to where you are now?
4:54
SPEAKER_01: I certainly can.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: So um, so I'm 44, although I desperately don't feel 44, so I try not to feel 44.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: And I started, I'll give you the abridged version, of course.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: Um I um I moved down from Nottingham when I was 19, and I fell into financial services because I hated my job at the time.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: And a friend of mine worked as a sales support administrator for um the Allied Dunbar, the new Cavendish Street branch of Allied Dunbar.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: And we were chatting over dinner, and I was like, I hate my job, I don't know what to do.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: She said, Well, actually, there's three financial advisors in Allied Dunbar that want a PA.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: And I said to her, Let me just stop you there.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be the world's worst PA.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: But it might be quite interesting.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: So obviously, you know, I got the job, you know, I kind of, it was an immediate start.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: It was a self-employed, effectively office administrator, basically, for three advisors, top producing.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: And long story short, I could just see the common challenges that all of the top producers, and in fact, any advisor I came across was facing lack of structure, lack of role profiles, wrong people, wrong jobs, mismatch of processes, you know, overworking, under love, neglecting the families, and and and right.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: And this was, you know, this was 20 years ago.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: And to be fair, not a lot has changed through that time, I have to say.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it just was just apparent to me, not knowing anything about financial services.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: And I was a female in financial services 25, nearly 25 years ago, which was quite an anomaly anyway.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I just basically re-engineered their business processes.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: And honestly, Sam, the next thing I know, almost as a blink of an eye, I'm writing articles and I'm on the stage at the PFS conference.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: And I honestly, it's almost like the whole period is a blur to me because I just ended up getting more and more and more advisors to help.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: And I was a sole trader, you know, solopreneur as we call them now.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: Not we didn't call them solopreneurs then.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: I was knackered.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: I had loads of clients.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: And then I met a lady who had a business in standards, i.e., quality quality standards in other industries, travel, environmental.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: And I met her at you know, one of these random breakfast meetings you go to, and she said, Did you know that there's a standard in financial planning?
7:14
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, No.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: And in simple terms, it was because I had worked tirelessly with all these advisors and firms, and they had no mark, like a qualification, to prove all the amazing stuff that they were doing in their businesses.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: And this was my door to creating lots of services and support where we could badget.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: We could say, this is the ISO BS mark to prove that you're an amazing business, an amazing planner, an amazing power planner, and so on.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, pull up to present day, you know, standards international is an international business.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, we've got a team in the UK, we've got clients overseas.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: And effectively, we are a standards body that sets standards in financial planning and rolls standards out in financial planning and advice across the world.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I and honestly, I flip and bounce out of bed every morning.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: I was just saying to you, like I was awake at half three this morning and I was lying there thinking, well, I could just lie in bed, or actually, I could just crack on because I'm chatting to Sam and I'm on the radio and I'm doing all this.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, like I was awake and I was up because it because I know that what we're doing is really changing the sector, not from a sort of an industry into a profession, but from a profession into a business.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's my mission.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: And everything we do just links into that, really.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: And there's lots to talk about in the cracks of all that.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: But effectively, you know, standards international and little miswow is just the energy force behind excellence in financial services, and we will not stop.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: And the job will never be done either.
8:44
SPEAKER_03: There's always a higher standard to be to be saw.
8:48
SPEAKER_03: Fantastic.
8:48
SPEAKER_03: So, Michelle, like during your period then of uh standards international, what's the what's the biggest thing that you've seen, the biggest change that you've seen within financial planning?
8:56
SPEAKER_03: And did you play a part in that at all?
8:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, obviously getting involved in the standard, you know, over the years.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the biggest shift, honestly, is I mean, gosh, there's a lot, Sam, but I think the the biggest one is the the shift in, if you think about over the years, and what and I'll just lay some context to this is you know, when I go and speak overseas in the States and you know, it particularly in the States, you know, the advisor is held in such high regard on this pedestal of amazingness.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: It's almost like worshipping them.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: Right.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: And we've had a lot of that in the UK, and this is why, if you go back, we've got lots of paraplanners who think they need to be a financial advisor, why they need to be a financial planner, because that's where the pinnacle of the profession sits.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: And I couldn't agree, I couldn't disagree any, if even any more if I tried.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: Because actually, you know, the shift I've seen, and I've played a part in that for sure, is that business managers, operations managers, paraplanners, you know, head of compliance, head of you know, people, HR managers, they they all are part of that relay race.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: And you know, they're all part of the Olympic team, as I call them, right?
10:07
SPEAKER_01: And you know, the planner is not successful without the support.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: You know, the paraplanner can't do the poinning job without the advisor.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: Both of those roles can't exist without great operations behind them.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: So it's this wonderful relay race, this tag team.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, that's the shift that I'm pushing constantly.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: And it is the shift that I've that I've seen.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: The only other one which links into what we're talking about is the complexities of everyday life.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: Like if you look at your life and my life, you know, we've got blended families, we've got, you know, shifting responsibilities in households, we've got really super high net worth females with stay-at-home men.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's been a whole shift in culture and behaviors and all that.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: And actually, I think, you know, a lot of the sector will be like, yeah, well, that doesn't really impact our clients too much.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, but let's look at your life.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: Forget your clients.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Your life is 25 times more complicated today than it was 20 years ago.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: Everybody's life is the same.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: And I said to a colleague yesterday, I said, I don't, I said, honestly, I said, I can't remember life being this demanding and this complicated pre-COVID.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: It's like our resilience levels have dropped to the floor and any little bit of stress just we cannot handle.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: It's like we're it we're literally on our arse as far as resilience.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: So I think, you know, that's a big shift.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: That and the fact that the the advisor role is not the pinnacle and the center of the universe when it comes to financial services.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: There are many other emerging roles that you know really are going to take center stage over the next 10 years.
11:38
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, really pleased you said that because I've, you know, I interview and talk to so many interesting, uh clever people who work within those functions that you've just described, the power planning, you know, things like administration massively overlooked.
11:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
11:53
SPEAKER_03: Some of the people I speak to, that these administration roles are really the glue holding holding it together.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: They are, yeah, they're described as those doing the grunt work.
12:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the grunt work.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: Like what is that?
12:03
unknown: Yeah.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: What is that?
12:04
SPEAKER_03: The language that's used, this idea that this prestige should be associated to the financial advisor and everybody's their minions doing the jobs that they don't want to do.
12:11
SPEAKER_03: Exactly right.
12:12
SPEAKER_03: So they could go out and build those relationships.
12:14
SPEAKER_03: But we bring the money in.
12:15
SPEAKER_03: It's like, yeah, but you may bring the money in, but it's the people in the business that hold it together.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
12:19
SPEAKER_03: Um, I mean, you know, a lot of the firms that I'm talking to, where I'm speaking to individuals that are then going off to set up their own financial planning businesses, they're not doing it on their own anymore.
12:27
SPEAKER_03: Whereas you used to have a lot of financial advisors that would just go, well, I'm gonna do it on my own, I'm gonna go join a network and they'll do it all for me because they told me, they told me they'd do it.
12:34
SPEAKER_03: Now that you know the smart ones are partnering.
12:37
SPEAKER_03: They're partnering with a power planner, they're partnering with a compliance manager, an operations manager.
12:42
SPEAKER_03: It's becoming the the starting point of their businesses.
12:45
SPEAKER_03: And and and they're the ones who are really happy.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, the uh the whole that the the ego, I mean, you know, I I remember, I mean, I was never invited back, and I can understand why, but I was interviewed on a panel, I think it was Fun Money Marketing or one of them, and um we were talking about you know shifting the sector, you know, really changing the sector.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: You know, and the lady she said to me, you know, what really has to change for the industry to turn into a profession and then, as you say, turn into a business?
13:12
SPEAKER_01: I said, honestly, this lot needs to die off my response.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: And I felt awful, but she knew what I meant, and so did half the audience.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: Like we've we're so ingrained with habits, they've just got to die off like the dinosaurs.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, and sadly, you know, you'll come across this, but we are seeing, we we we actually serve and look after a lot of multi-generational firms where the children or the son or the daughter or both are taking over their parents' business or dad's business.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: And there are there's a whole raft that never reach me or reach us that are just doing it the same way dads did it, did it, right?
13:47
SPEAKER_01: But the smart ones, like you say, are phoning me up going, I am definitely not doing it like that.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, can you help me?
13:52
SPEAKER_01: And we've got loads on our WAW program, you know, that more that next generation down, because they're just not going to do it like mom and dad did it, not in millions.
13:59
SPEAKER_03: I think the you know, the heart's in the right place.
14:01
SPEAKER_03: It's like bring the family into the business and they'll take over it.
14:04
SPEAKER_03: But do you think there's an element of sort of like let go?
14:06
SPEAKER_03: Like let go and let your kids run their own business.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you're right, yeah, yes.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: And and actually, you know, we have lots of conversations with the children going, I just it just won't go.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: I just can't get rid of him.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: And the thing is, whereas if where he, you know, or she, the advisors that's selling that business, you know, the exiting that business would have sold it, there'd have been another kind of key player transitioning them out.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: But I think we can get away with it with the kids.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: So they just won't go.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: And actually, it's like work becomes an extension of home and dads or mum or is telling the kids what they need to do, and it's hard and it's just they overstay their welcome.
14:44
SPEAKER_03: And then how can you truly, how can you truly then uh move on to the next stage of a life, you know, in retirement?
14:50
SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying that everyone should retire and put their feet up and do nothing, but you've been running a business for so many years.
14:55
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there comes a point where it's like I'm gonna step away from this so I can do something else.
14:58
SPEAKER_03: If you're constantly then sticking your nose in or your finger in, or you're it's like you're never really truly letting go and allowing yourself to do something else with that stage of your life.
15:07
SPEAKER_03: And I think um that's another area of it.
15:09
SPEAKER_03: Just touching on America, then you said you said you're some international firms, they hold their financial advisors in really high prestige in this in the USA as well.
15:17
SPEAKER_03: Um, in the UK, we see it.
15:18
SPEAKER_03: Obviously, it's the kind of oh, he's a guy who knows about it's a guy or a girl who knows about money, oh, they must be super intelligent, they must know more than I do.
15:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you've got the dawn of all like uh fintech and things coming in, YouTube.
15:30
SPEAKER_03: People are becoming very fa in understanding how to run their own finances.
15:33
SPEAKER_03: It's a it can be a risky game, and you know, and we've got to be very careful of of our behaviors and how we interact with the way that we invest our money because we went chuck it into a load of dogecoin and lose it all.
15:44
SPEAKER_03: I definitely didn't do that, you know.
15:46
SPEAKER_03: But you know, but what about the back office functions in the States?
15:49
SPEAKER_03: Is it a thing?
15:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, interestingly, and God, we could talk, we could we could talk for hours, but so I um I'm going to Australia just to kind of bring this forward and then I'll send you back.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to Australia to probably speak in front of about 10,000 people on power planning.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: Right.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: Right.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: And they're coming from Asia, India, you know, they'll come from the Far East, you know, they'll all they're all congregating for a global conference to talk about power planning.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: And the reason that I'm talking about power planning is they know that the advisors community has reached capacity.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: Like it cannot do anything more unless it brings support in.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: And like you just asked me, you know, what you've got in the States is I'm the advisor, I'm the king or queen of the castle, all the clients love me, and you'll just do what I ask.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: The problem is as regulation increases and complexities increase, the advisors are way out of their depth.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: And we've seen it here in the UK, which is why you've got the emergence of power planning here in the UK and overseas, right?
16:53
SPEAKER_01: Australia is a very advanced country in terms of power planning.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: They've got flipping thousands of power plans all over, offshore, onshore, you know, and and but it but interestingly, the rise of the global power planner is absolutely on the on the on the rise.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: And you know, this is why we designed the international standard for power planners, which is a whole other conversation.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: But they're at they want me to go and talk about power planning.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: So I think I think what we've got is we've got um we've got this these bandings of professional, professionals across the sector.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: We've got your salespeople, which, and you know, for those of that have heard me speak before, sales isn't a dirty word.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: You know, sales is our duty to get you to take the action that we really think you should be taking.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's what that's encouragement, it's sales, it's you know, it's only bad if it's manipulation and control and you know, if the intent is wrong, you know, but but sales is not a dirty world, and you've got right up to you know, life planners and people that really focus on the life and actually there's everything in between, and that's global.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: So for someone like me, we have to have a proposition and a support infrastructure for all of them types of clients, all those firms, and therefore they have to have an infrastructure that supports them dependent on where they are in the sector.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's a crazy global world, but it's definitely becoming more best practice standards across, not just about qualifications, which we are clearly obsessed with here in the UK.
18:19
SPEAKER_03: I saw, and you know, the one thing that I've seen from doing my own personal research into other countries is the is the guys from the guys and the girls from the US, and there are a lot of women actually in the US that are not afraid to get on camera, not afraid to sell themselves and push their personal brand.
18:35
SPEAKER_03: So there's a huge amount that I think that the advice advisors in the UK can learn from a sales perspective.
18:42
SPEAKER_03: Why can't we say sell yourself, sell your services, sell the reasons why people should see you?
18:46
SPEAKER_03: I think it's a dirty, you know, it's a dirty word.
18:47
SPEAKER_03: I don't understand why it's a dirty word.
18:48
SPEAKER_03: Like we can't say sales, it's just like get over it.
18:50
SPEAKER_03: It's selling yourself.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: We've got we've got two girls, we've got a girl or a girl each.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: We're selling to our children every single day.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: Shall we go to the movies tonight?
18:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, can you crack on and get ready for school then?
19:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, ultimately it's sales, right?
19:03
SPEAKER_01: We're humans and it's it's part of human nature, but you're right, it is deemed as a dirty word.
19:09
SPEAKER_03: It's got to be about 400,000 advisors, I think, over in the US.
19:12
SPEAKER_03: I think I think yeah.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, well, it's interesting because again, this, you know, do you remember, you know, when RDR kicked off, you know, here in the UK, you know, I got all very excited about it because there was a real opportunity for us to establish what actually was meant by financial advisor and planner.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: And eventually it got watered down to the point it was almost pointless.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: But you know, I jumped in a cab when I was last in the States pre-COVID and I was at a conference.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: And this cabbie said to me, He's like, good day.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: I was like, yeah, I'm having a great day.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: I said, he said, are you for visiting holiday?
19:45
SPEAKER_01: I was like, no, no, I'm actually a speaker at a conference.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: He's like, oh, is that that uh that that money one?
19:49
SPEAKER_01: That money, that money, that money conference, and I was like, Yeah, yeah, it's at this convention center.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Yeah, he said, um, I used to dabble, I used to dabble in uh financial advice.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: He said, you know, I I got my CFP, and I'm sitting there going, you've got your CFP, and you consider that dabbling with money, right?
20:10
SPEAKER_01: And he's a cabbie, part-time financial advisor, part-time cabbie.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And I sat in the back of the cab going, my work will never be finished.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: And he was going, Yeah, he said, I've got I've got a few clients that I uh and I'm thinking, you're totally unregulated, clearly.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: So it was it was this crazy conversation I was having, but there's thousands of them, but by what definition?
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
20:34
SPEAKER_03: Because there isn't any regulation like there is with RD, you know, when RDR came in over here, it's not the same in the States, is it?
20:38
SPEAKER_03: So it's a bit sort of cowboy-ish, you know, a bit more free, free, free-for, isn't it?
20:42
SPEAKER_01: Multiple choice, 90 questions, tick.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're a financial advisor.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: Off you go.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: You know, and it's globally a bit of a concern, but that's interesting.
20:51
SPEAKER_03: So a lot of um a lot of recruitment companies are setting up in the US at the moment because it's such a huge market out there, it's growing in loads of areas, and they're how they recruit isn't very isn't done very well.
21:00
SPEAKER_03: So a lot of UK firms are going over and setting up.
21:03
SPEAKER_03: And I've been looking at the US and thinking to myself, is it something that I can do?
21:07
SPEAKER_03: And when you're talking about things like the bringing power planners into the US, the back office type functions, the fact that it's going through this evolution, it's only that is like you can do 400,000 odd advisors, unless they do a culling like they did in the UK.
21:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's only going to need this back office type function.
21:21
SPEAKER_03: So I see it as a really booming area.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: It's funny because a lot of them not yet, because the problem is they won't know what you're talking about.
21:27
SPEAKER_03: Right.
21:27
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: I spoke about power planning in Hawaii pre-COVID.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: And I had this guy who's actually from Mexico, granted, not the States, but he literally came bounding through the audience at the end of the session.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: And literally, I'd done a whole session on power planners.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: He literally came up to me and he went, Is this real?
21:44
SPEAKER_01: I was like, what?
21:45
SPEAKER_01: He's like, is this role a real role?
21:48
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, yeah.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: He went, I've got 40 of them in my business and they're all really crap financial advisors.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: Because he got them as financial advisors.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: They couldn't sell, they weren't the people.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: People.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: But he said he's literally written, he went, look, this is the list.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: He looked showed me the names of all the people in his business he wrote down that actually he realized were power planners.
22:08
SPEAKER_03: Right.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: So you've got there's a few years to go, yeah, but you know, early adopters, early entrants, you know, go for it.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: Go for it.
22:17
SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
22:17
SPEAKER_03: The most of them are self-employed as well, aren't they?
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
22:20
unknown: Yeah.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: They're part of networks, they're part of broker dealerships and Sun Life and others.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: And it's a bit like how we were 15, 20 years ago here, but much bigger on scale.
22:33
SPEAKER_03: Where do you think in the world is one of the most exciting places right now to be a financial advisor?
22:37
SPEAKER_01: I think wherever there are humans.
22:40
SPEAKER_03: With a bit of money.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: Everywhere.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's interesting for different reasons.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: I think in Australia, they've just had, and they're, you know, the raw permission has just sort of taken over what they what their their regulatory review and they've got lots of review.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: And that's been quite traumatic from a well-being perspective.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, you know, a few years ago, pre-COVID, I again I went to Australia to speak, and and they that my brief literally was we need you to get them to stop taking their own lives because they were the advisors, mainly men, were taking their own lives.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: They were literally jumping off the Sydney Harbour Bridge.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: And it was because they couldn't handle commit the commission bans, they couldn't handle compliance, they couldn't handle the stresses, and they would just like they'd thrown all of their whole person into this business that was effectively going to be, you know, stripped from within them.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, and they were literally taking their own lives, you know.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: So Australia's got a really exciting opportunity to redesign itself from a regulation.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: I think if the UK moved away from this obsession with qualifications and chartered and chartered status, I think we would achieve so much more as a sector and actually be way more successful in many, many, many areas, not just in business, but actually in our ability and our abilities and skills to deliver great financial planning and advice to clients.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Um and then I think you've got the the the emerging markets.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've got I've got clients in Dubai, you know, advisors in Dubai, and you know, they're dealing with super wealth.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, super, uber, uber wealth.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: And just when I listen to them talk about the challenges of their clients and the cultural challenges, it blows my mind.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: But it's so exciting to, and if you are an advisor or a planner that's ready to support families through those complexities, I mean, what a job, what a job to do that.
24:29
SPEAKER_03: I think as well, like it's that the world is opening up.
24:32
SPEAKER_03: And I, you know, if you even if you're, you know, born in the UK, you might do a little bit of work in the UK as an advisor, you might not want to be here.
24:38
SPEAKER_03: There is such a huge amount of opportunity all over the world to continue doing the role that you're doing.
24:42
SPEAKER_03: And I've I've helped people, you know, there's a chap who was working for Lloyd's in the UK.
24:46
SPEAKER_03: I mean, he was a 60k a year earner, young guy, great guy.
24:50
SPEAKER_03: He's now earning over a we're talking money here.
24:52
SPEAKER_03: I know we're talking money, right?
24:53
SPEAKER_03: But he's earning over like a million pounds a year.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: It's incredible.
24:56
SPEAKER_03: Over in Dubai, he built his own business up.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: He's having a fantastic, isn't it?
25:01
SPEAKER_03: And also, as well, he's building a business over there, but he's also adopting everything that everything's being done in the UK.
25:06
SPEAKER_03: And because everyone's opening up their licenses now, he can advise anybody around the world.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: And that's the magic.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: So if you kind of, you know, get some peripheral vision, which is my point about the UK's obsession with qualifications, right?
25:18
SPEAKER_01: And chartered status and chartered this and this and that.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, actually, if you broaden out your view, the world is very, very exciting.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'll give you an example.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: So we've got more um more people from overseas as a financial abuse qualified advisor than we have in the UK.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: Why?
25:38
SPEAKER_01: Because they're all still busy getting chartered status, right?
25:41
SPEAKER_01: And actually, you know, there's so much more.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, I did a webinar for an organization in India, um, and I um I was talking to them about, you know, other skills, because in India they don't have chartered status, right?
25:52
SPEAKER_01: They have some of the CII qualifications for sure, but they want other stuff.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: They want to know other stuff.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: I spent 20 minutes talking about all financial advisors should become a mental health first aider.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, and they were literally like, well, our government's given us funding for this so that they're doing free training.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, this is the forward-thinking populations in so many ways.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: In others not, but in other ways, you know, they're realize in the complexities that we as humans are going through.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: And advisors and planners and life coaches and mentors, we play an incredible role in that journey for a client, for a person, you know, because we have if we have those skills and abilities to be able to really add value way higher than just let me do your financial plan.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, gosh, that's that's a whole podcast episode in itself, right?
26:37
SPEAKER_01: But you there's more to it than that.
26:39
SPEAKER_03: Financial planning, anything, any anything, not just financial planning, when you work in uh when you when you when you do a job, right, and somebody doesn't understand what it is that you do, the aim is to simplify what it is that you're doing so they fully understand it.
26:52
SPEAKER_03: How can you get them to fully understand it if you can't get them to connect with you on a human level?
26:57
SPEAKER_03: So the thing that I find when I speak to financial advisors, recruitment consultants, anybody that works within any human-to-human space is that within the first 15 minutes, do I like you?
27:09
SPEAKER_03: Do you understand?
27:11
SPEAKER_03: Do I care?
27:12
SPEAKER_03: Do you do I care enough to want to continue talking to you?
27:15
SPEAKER_03: Have you cared about me enough?
27:17
SPEAKER_03: Are you interested in me enough?
27:19
SPEAKER_03: And you can make an impact on somebody's life within the first 10 to 15 minutes, and you can just do that by listening and watching, observing, and seeing something unfold in front of you because in reality, you can get so much out of someone so quickly.
27:33
SPEAKER_03: And that's the point that you then make that connection.
27:35
SPEAKER_03: And I think the stuff that you're doing around individual areas of human connection and the things to look out for are important.
27:44
SPEAKER_03: And you know what?
27:45
SPEAKER_03: They're super interesting.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:47
SPEAKER_03: You're right.
27:47
SPEAKER_03: People are spending their whole time head down in a book, learning the complexities of whatever to become chartered and ignoring what it is that we want as human beings.
27:56
SPEAKER_03: We want compassion, we want comfort, we want someone to understand us.
27:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's the skill set that needs to be required, you know, that's required to do any job when you're dealing with human beings.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
28:05
SPEAKER_03: Talk to me a little bit about the um the qualification then, because I was really I was blown away with it by it when the when this lady opened up to me.
28:13
SPEAKER_03: And I've myself have witnessed this in other people.
28:18
SPEAKER_03: So um the financial abuse specialist certificate, can you give us an overview of it and how that fits into financial planning?
28:24
SPEAKER_01: I can.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna I'm gonna give you one stat because I think it just puts a bit of context to this.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: One in seven men and one in four women, and that figure is increasing, will in their lifetime become a victim of economic abuse or financial abuse.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: So when I first found out about that stat, knowing that all of my clients, i.e., financial planners, advisors, and rest, are all dealing with people's money, it was absolutely a no-brainer to get involved in it.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: So the financial abuse specialist qualification is a specific skill that you will will get, and you have to prove that you understand all this, and I'll talk through that process in a minute, that you are able to spot, support, and signpost an individual that may be a victim of financial abuse.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: Now, given the fact that our clients, your listeners, are in front of clients every single day talking about money, they are perfectly primed to be able to have conversations that won't raise any kind of why is he asking me about that, or why is she asking me about that?
29:35
SPEAKER_01: It was just a no-brainer to get involved.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: And just again, again, just as a sort of a very quick story, why this is so important is you know, I was chatting to a lady who um runs or works for a charity in the UK, and she was telling me a story about a lady who was in a marriage, super wealthy husband, multiple businesses, children in private school, super posh car, jewelry, you know, bits and pieces.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, and effectively, she was a victim of severe financial abuse to the to the point that she was, she didn't have any money, no money, no access to money, no money in her purse, no nothing.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: She had to ask permission to get the resources she needed to live as a woman, sanitary products, um, you know, kid things for the kids and so on.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: And then she'd have to explain why she was spending what she was spending.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: Very coercively controlling relationship.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: He, the husband, loaded, you know, you'd never think about it that he was doing this to his family.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: She went to see a lawyer and said to the lawyer, you know, I need some help.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I don't know what to do, what's my rights?
30:41
SPEAKER_01: And the lawyer basically said, Well, you need to wait until he sells one of his businesses, effectively, probably to pay the lawyer's fees, and or I don't really know what your situation is or what we can do for you unless you have any money, effectively.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: And then she went to see a financial planner, planner, advisor.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: And the financial planner, sadly, said to her, Well, we can help you when the time is right.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Now we all know what that means, either when you've got some money that we can invest or do something with to make all this happen, and and and well, three weeks later, she took her own life, this woman.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: But she'd gone to two leads, she'd gone to two professional advisors and neither spotted any of the signs.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: Now, I know for a fact, if she'd have been sitting around my dining table or across the meeting room from me as a skilled professional in this area or any of those that are trained in this area, they'd have spotted those signs a mile off.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: And if they hadn't have spotted it, they would have asked the right questions to be able to bring out some of the signs.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: So the financial financial especially specialist is giving individuals the skills to spot support to the level that is required, depending on the circumstance, and signpost.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: It's not to go charging in like the nitro nitris and chin in armor, it is to support and signpost to the expert, expert charities, organizations, and so on.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's just something that I'm super proud of.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, it's almost been my passion project as an individual bringing this to the market.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, but equally, you know, what a legacy for for me and the business to to have when we are all gone, that this existed in the market and we trained all these people on um, you know, we've got we've got an impact pledge for this standard and this certification.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: We want a million people certified to it by 2030 globally, because we want this certification mark to be the beacon that people can go to and say, actually, I think my friend is being financially abused, actually, you know, I think this is happening.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: Or actually, without them knowing, you know, if if if it's well, somebody said to me the other day, and it's interesting, we all know somebody that's been raped, but we don't all know a rapist, right?
32:49
SPEAKER_01: And this is the exact same thing.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: We all know someone that's either been a victim of domestic abuse and or financial abuse, for example, but we don't necessarily realize who those people are.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if we can actually shine a light on this more within financial services, what it means is that the perpetrators who might not even realize they're perpetrators go, gosh, gosh, that's me.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't even realize it.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: And that's fine, they're not going to be slung into prison.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: But these are the conversations that need to be to be had.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: And the the role of planning, advice, paraplanning, this sector, my little slice of our profession that we share, Sam, they've got a massive duty of care to really, really look and spot the signs that this is happening because it's on the increase, on the increase.
33:36
SPEAKER_03: Very, yeah, that's a really sad story that you said there.
33:39
SPEAKER_03: Um, the fact that she's gone to solicitor and a financial planner.
33:43
SPEAKER_03: Now, you think to yourself, well, why not go and see a mental health professional, right?
33:49
SPEAKER_03: But when it comes to if you're in that world, she may have done.
33:53
SPEAKER_03: She may have done.
33:54
SPEAKER_03: But also we've got to take into consideration also as well.
33:56
SPEAKER_03: Like if you're in that world where money is a concern to you, like how am I going to live my life, my lifestyle, or what am I going to do in respect of my children?
34:03
SPEAKER_03: Money plays a huge part in it.
34:05
SPEAKER_03: And if you've been if you've been controlled around money, therefore, it's very you you you you would think a solicitor or a financial planner would have come up against this before and be able to offer the advice and the guidance required.
34:18
SPEAKER_03: And that's sad.
34:19
SPEAKER_03: That's sad that that's very sad that that didn't happen.
34:22
SPEAKER_03: Do you think that there is a level of conflict that might come up with a financial planner?
34:27
SPEAKER_03: So they're sitting there, they might have somebody in front of them, they might have a couple, they might be able to spot the signs or or at least have a something's going off, you know, something's going off in their head thinking this guy or this girl's not right.
34:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:38
SPEAKER_03: Do you think there's this conflict of interest of doing the business, writing the business and keeping the client happy and doing the right thing by addressing potentially a problem that's in front of them around financial abuse?
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, because you know, often, I mean, I picked up on a on a Facebook word swag this morning and it basically said, you know, trust your intuition.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: It's your body telling you something that you don't want to ask.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: And we've all got it.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: We all know when something's off, like we've got that ability as humans to just sense.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: That's why we have five senses, right?
35:10
SPEAKER_01: We feel and we we observe with all of them.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, we we we interact with all those senses.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: So I think, yes, I think there is a conflict.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I'll I'll use this as an example, but it's not related specifically to financial abuse.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, I was chatting to an advisor just at the beginning of lockdown, and I said to him, you know, he was a prospect, not a client.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: I said, you know, have you been have you spoken to your clients about their well-being?
35:32
SPEAKER_01: And he went, it's not my job to ask them about their well-being.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: And this guy, he's super smart, he's super caring, but he, because he's a not a great communicator and he's a bit of an introvert, and he felt awkward because he wouldn't know what to do with the response.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: What would he do if a client says, Well, actually, I'm really not doing very well today?
35:54
SPEAKER_01: He's gonna go, well, actually, neither am I, actually, or you know, uh, oh, okay, then um, right.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: And this is where if you add the financial abuse specialist qualification to something like mental health first aider, you can have those conversations and you're not afraid by them.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and you've it's the same conversation, Sam, you have with people going, yeah, we don't want to do life planning or that we don't want to do all that fluffy stuff because actually, you know, our clients don't want to talk about life planning.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, do they want to talk about their life?
36:25
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: Then just change the terminology and talk about them and their life.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to give it some poshwanky buzzword.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: It's life.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: It's let's talk about your life, talk about who you are, you know, what's going on in you.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: And this is the same with the financial abuse stuff and you know, conversations around mental health first aid as well.
36:44
SPEAKER_03: I think entwining the questions into any process, so I can bring it back into recruitment.
36:51
SPEAKER_03: Recruitment, people are making a massive decision to change their job.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
36:57
SPEAKER_03: And I'm often asked why.
36:59
SPEAKER_03: Why do you want to change your job?
37:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, tell me about the things that you really like about your job first.
37:05
SPEAKER_03: You know, what would you change about your job?
37:08
SPEAKER_03: You know, where do you where would you like to be in the next five years?
37:10
SPEAKER_03: These open questions that engage and get conversations flowing.
37:14
SPEAKER_03: And very often you can start to pick up on tone of voice, you can start to pick up on the way they answer the question, and they might be holding something back.
37:21
SPEAKER_03: And we have to ethically make the right decisions by somebody based on where they are at that point in time.
37:28
SPEAKER_03: And I think financial advice has it perfectly positioned because you're you're talking about something, again, that's so um so emotionally driven and such a difficult time in people's life and fears and concerns and worries about their future, that you're perfectly positioned to ask those questions.
37:44
SPEAKER_03: When they do the financial, because I get it, I get it.
37:47
SPEAKER_03: There are I speak to lots of people who struggle to open up.
37:50
SPEAKER_03: I've I've always been in group therapy and and I've I've seen someone come through the door when, and I think to myself, Pikey, I was that person.
37:57
SPEAKER_03: I couldn't open up the way I can now.
37:59
SPEAKER_03: So when somebody, if someone's listening to this and they're thinking about doing like a financial abuse qualification, and perhaps they know maybe I'm not that great around asking those types of questions, I'm not confident.
38:10
SPEAKER_03: What does the training do?
38:12
SPEAKER_03: You know, how how does it get them comfortable asking those types of questions?
38:15
SPEAKER_03: Is there some sort of group training?
38:17
SPEAKER_03: Do you put them through any kind of role plays?
38:19
SPEAKER_03: How does it work?
38:20
SPEAKER_01: Basically, I think I think when you there's a great quote, um, which is basically when you know better, you do better.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: And if if you if you take it back to its basics, right, we are a sector of individuals, and I'm generalizing, and you'll see it in the work you do, that know or feel that their confidence comes from how smart they are, right?
38:41
SPEAKER_01: And I have to say sometimes to people, when are you actually going to stop sitting exams and actually start applying some of this stuff?
38:48
SPEAKER_01: Because they feel like this imposter syndrome, which impacts their confidences.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: If I sit more exams and get more qualifications and do this and do this and do this, then I'll be smart enough to talk about it.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: And I've got administrators and paraplanners who probably, you know, power planners particularly that know more than the financial planners and advisors that support, they won't, they wouldn't dare speak to a client because they've not got the status, right?
39:09
SPEAKER_01: Or the qualifications particularly.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: So I think what we are doing is we are making this mainstream.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: So we're just putting it out there.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: So if I said to you pre-this conversation, you know, let's have a conversation, you know, I I I come to you and say, Sam, you know, I think I may be a victim of financial abuse.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: Can you help me?
39:27
SPEAKER_01: You would absolutely brick it if you hadn't have had the fangs taken out of the subject.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: So what we're trying to do, and this is this is all that goes into the course, really, is we're trying to make it normal, as in not normal behavior, but it's just a thing.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: It's mainstream, it's it's everyday, it's not this big, bad, you know, thing that nobody can talk about.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: It's just in everyday life.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: So we take the fangs out of it for starters.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: And that's what, again, similar to mental health first aid.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: Then I think what we do is we we bring real life stories in, real life scenarios, and we talk about, you know, in the in the course, you know, how you should deal with it.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: What would you say?
40:09
SPEAKER_01: How would you approach it?
40:10
SPEAKER_01: So it's very work-based assessed.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: There's a few kind of quizzes and QA in there, but it's work-based assessed.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: So we want you to bring your approach to what you would do and how you would tackle it.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: Because whilst there is a framework of um, you know, like for example, I'll give you a give you a little tip.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: So if you feel like you're sensing that somebody is in an abusive relationship, and I will clarify that in a second, you know, you you could say to them, so let's imagine I thought it was you, and I would say to you, Sam, um, you know when, I'm making this up, you know when um your wife um really racks up those credit card bills, um, you know, that makes me feel really sad for you because I know how hard you work, and you know, I know money doesn't come easy.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Does that happen a lot?
41:01
SPEAKER_01: Right now, your response.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: So I've just brought it up, not like she does this and she does that.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: It's basically I've seen this, I feel this, I believe this.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: And nobody can argue with what I've seen, what I feel, or what I believe.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: You can't argue with me because they're not your feelings, they're mine.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: My opinion is I'm really sad.
41:22
SPEAKER_01: No, you're not really sad.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: You can't say to me you're not really sad.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: No, I I am because they're my feelings.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: And then it's a question, and it's almost just like you're you're holding your hand out to say the door is open.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: I've not asked it in a threatening way, I've not asked it in an aggressive way, I'm asking it from care.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: How do you feel about that?
41:44
SPEAKER_01: And you might say, Oh, she flipping drives me nuts, but she's gonna bleed me dry, or you know, actually, now you mention it, it has been bothering me a bit, and then we're off, right?
41:53
SPEAKER_01: And now we're on a unconfrontation, non-con-confrontational, safe space.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: And the next most important thing I would say to you is, Sam, whatever you want to talk about, I am here to listen without any judgment.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: Off we go.
42:07
SPEAKER_01: Now, if you go, that's not the case, and okay, you go.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: I didn't mean to offend, I didn't mean to, you know, to spark, you know, or trigger you in any way, um, but I'm here to listen if you ever need to talk about it without any judgment, and you're off, the doors open.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: Doors open.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: So we we treat we teach things like that.
42:24
SPEAKER_03: Um and it's about it's about the you did it right there.
42:27
SPEAKER_03: It's the delicate way that you come in with a question, and it doesn't matter even if they're sat together, you can position a question that doesn't blame either side, absolutely puts it out on the table to discuss, absolutely, to look at.
42:40
SPEAKER_03: And the person who might well be racking up a load of money on the credit cards is probably feeling shame and guilt associated to that.
42:47
SPEAKER_03: Perhaps the person is ignoring it on the other side because of some other issues.
42:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
42:51
SPEAKER_03: Therefore, if you bring it and put it onto the table in a way that's open and kind and considerate and caring, then you're giving a safe space to be able to talk about it and you never know what might happen from that point on.
43:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:01
SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah, I love the fact they're saying about the mental, you know, everyone needs to be a mental health qualified.
43:06
SPEAKER_03: Everybody needs to look at the types of questions that they're asking and thinking about the signs.
43:10
SPEAKER_03: You know, we're not expecting everybody to be mental health experts because you're not, you're a financial advisor, you're a recruitment, so you're doing whatever it is you're doing.
43:17
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
43:17
SPEAKER_03: You know, you're not expecting people to do that.
43:19
SPEAKER_03: I think there is this feeling sometimes that we take on that we have to be those types of people.
43:23
SPEAKER_03: And I've learned that in my job.
43:25
SPEAKER_03: People come through my work and they're unhappy, they're sad, they work for me.
43:29
SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, in the past I've desperately tried to solve their problems.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
43:34
SPEAKER_03: Desperately tried to solve it.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:35
SPEAKER_03: Now I don't.
43:36
SPEAKER_03: Now I sit, I listen, I ask those open questions, and I have a solution on this side to put them into like a route to go and get some help, whether that's eight free counseling sessions, or if that's look, you need to go and take a break.
43:50
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
43:50
SPEAKER_03: We're going to talk about your actual mental health and why you need to rest.
43:55
SPEAKER_03: We talk about exercise, meditation, whatever it is.
43:58
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
43:58
SPEAKER_03: And that's a really, really important.
44:00
SPEAKER_03: So I think it's not about we're not trying to be these experts and let's not do that.
44:04
SPEAKER_03: Let's leave that to the individual experts.
44:05
SPEAKER_03: What we're trying to do is identify him and help and guide.
44:09
SPEAKER_03: Because you know, some people may not in their life have ever had the opportunity to even express that feeling and how they feel.
44:14
SPEAKER_03: And that powerful thing of doing that is the thing that made you change, you know, that surrendering to it.
44:19
SPEAKER_03: And if you're that person, if you're there as a guide, wonderful.
44:23
SPEAKER_03: And I think as humans, we all have that responsibility not to just be the rescuer all the time, but just to be the listener and the guide.
44:30
SPEAKER_03: And I think it's a really look at it.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: We've all got friends, Sam.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: We've all got family members.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, we've not we've not just all got clients, you know, we've got children that, you know, I've I've always said, you know, you know, I've always said, like, you know, I am that friend.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: I am the one that keeps the chat group going on WhatsApp, I'm the one that got all them, everyone together for walks in parks during lockdown.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: And but the reason is is because I needed to make sure that everyone was okay.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: But I did that because A, I was a qualified mental health as aider, and I was a specialist in financial abuse.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I want to make sure that they're okay.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: And if you remember, you know, the sign, you may not have seen it, but there was a lot of billboards around sort of lockdown time.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: And it basically said it was a massive picture, and it said, abusers always work from home.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: Right?
45:14
SPEAKER_01: Very powerful, very powerful.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: Anyone can Google the image, and it was basically a lady on a bed, you know, with a with a guy.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: Sadly, it was kind of very gender specific.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, abusers always work from home.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: And these are conversations, you know, I've got a friend who vanishes for weeks and weeks and weeks, and she goes underground and she's so busy, you know.
45:31
SPEAKER_01: And I bumped into her a little while back and I said, you know, she's like, I'm going shopping.
45:35
SPEAKER_01: And I said to her, and I know, and I know she is a victim of financial abuse for sure.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
45:40
SPEAKER_01: And I've got a very close eye on her.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: She's a very good friend of mine.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: And I said to her, um, you know, where you know, we're going into town, you're going into London to do some shopping.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: She went, Yeah, but I'm dying in, I'm only going in for the sales.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, hang on, he drives a Porsche, you live in a massive house.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: Why are you only buying?
45:57
SPEAKER_01: And then she said, Well, you know, because um earns all the money, and and I know that she is she's a she is being coercively controlled.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: Now on paper, out there, none none of our other friends would spot it, but I have.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: None of our other friends would spot it.
46:13
SPEAKER_01: They would just think she was flaky and she wasn't that bothered about fashion.
46:17
SPEAKER_01: And I've spotted a totally different warning sign, the triggers, you see.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: I've spotted the signs.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: So I think just one thing just to really just to point out as well, because I think just for clarity, right, Sam, there is two forms of abuse that we're talking around.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: There is um financial abuse and economic abuse.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: So effectively, just for clarity, financial abuse is to do with money.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: What I do and don't do with your money, give you access to economic abuse.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: So that's a slice because money is only one slice.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: Economic abuse is where I will either restrict, sabotage, or exploit your economic resources.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, one of the stats that I think I shared with you when we had our little chat, one form of economic abuse on men is women, 24% of men that were surveyed in a particular survey, their female intimate partner would restrict the amount of food that they could eat as part of coercive control.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: I've heard stories of men restricting how much sleep a woman can have.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: Coercive control, economic abuse, right?
47:30
SPEAKER_01: It's all forms of control.
47:32
SPEAKER_01: I was, I was, um, I was um on a because I'm in join, I've obviously I run and join many of these Facebook groups around financial abuse and narcissist behavior.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: And um, there was a lady that posted on there and she said that she just lost her mum, and she came on the group with a comment and she said, He's given me one month to grieve, and that's all I've got.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: So that's a few things.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: That's narcissist behavior, that's coercive control, that's emotional abuse, and effectively that will but that there'll also be forms of financial and economic abuse and all that, if not also domestic abuse.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: So as in physical abuse.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: So there's there's different forms of abuse and they're horrific and they all go undetected.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: But planners, advisors have got the money conversation to have, right?
48:17
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
48:18
SPEAKER_01: Domestic, um, the domestic abuse act was updated in 2021, and now it's actually coercive control and economic abuse is now a criminal offence.
48:29
SPEAKER_01: So any clients that you know we know who or friends that are going through divorce where we absolutely know coercive control will be for a form of that economic abuse.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, my friend went through a divorce, the husband went in because he was paying for it, took the skybox, took the phone, took everything technology-wise that her and the children needed for their economic well-being, and he took it.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: That's economic abuse, right?
48:54
SPEAKER_01: And she was being economically abused by her husband, uh, separated and financially abused.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: So, so it is a criminal offense.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: So, um, and there's there's oodles of stories I could share about where this is present and the science.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, we've got you know lots of resources on our website and stuff.
49:09
SPEAKER_01: But but yeah, I mean, there's a few key things, but it's not just about money.
49:13
SPEAKER_01: Money is a form of somebody's economic well-being.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: For you to be well, you need money.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: So do you need a house and you need a job and you need food and you need sleep, and this is economic resources that you need.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: And then when you've obviously got economic abuse, the perpetrator uses those things to control you and effectively abuse you.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's rife, it's it's it's everywhere in some way, shape, or form.
49:38
SPEAKER_03: Looking at this from a um, because I often look at things that we learn that we that we do, right?
49:43
SPEAKER_03: You do a qualification, we we do a qualification, you do a qualification as a charter financial planet.
49:47
SPEAKER_03: I'm chartered, you shout it out to the from the rooftops.
49:49
SPEAKER_03: I'm chartered, I've made it.
49:50
SPEAKER_03: Clearly, I'm super intelligent, which means I'm able to manage your money, right?
49:53
SPEAKER_03: And then you've got people that might do these qualifications and might just keep it on the hush.
49:56
SPEAKER_03: They might not even put it on their website and might not even talk about it.
50:00
SPEAKER_03: And from my perspective, or I know from looking at the whole, like a bit like you really, we look at the whole of the profession, don't we?
50:06
SPEAKER_03: We see the whole of the profession.
50:08
SPEAKER_03: My God, is there a gap?
50:10
SPEAKER_03: And people are starting to trickle into it and fill it, but there is such a gap for this because how many divorces happen?
50:18
SPEAKER_03: So many divorces.
50:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, financial planners are they're they're involved at that later stage of somebody's life as well, and that transition of wealth that's gonna be happening is great.
50:28
SPEAKER_03: Transition of wealth, two things, you know, plus more women controlling money now, right?
50:33
SPEAKER_03: Three things.
50:34
SPEAKER_03: If you're not doing this financial abuse qualification, if you're not doing the well-being side, you're gonna miss out in a way to market yourself as a um a well-being focused financial plan.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
50:50
SPEAKER_03: And that's the future, isn't it?
50:51
SPEAKER_01: That is 100% is it 100 1000 is Sam.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: It really is.
50:57
SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's interesting.
50:58
SPEAKER_01: So we've got some firms who their business manager has done the financial abuse specialist course and certification because they want to remove that conflict of interest in some cases, to have somebody independent in the business be able to help that client, not to give financial advice, but to support them, right?
51:18
SPEAKER_01: It's no coincidence we've got more women as financial abuse specialists than we have men.
51:23
SPEAKER_01: It's not a coincidence, right?
51:25
SPEAKER_01: And equally, you know, we've got it's just the skill set which really does change lives.
51:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, we could talk about changing lives through financial planning, yes.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: But you know, one of the quotes I put out a while back was, you know, this is not about changing lives, this is about potentially saving lives.
51:43
SPEAKER_01: And when you know what to spot and what you're looking for, you know, this is true care at the deepest, most intimate level in your relationships.
51:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, I want to be able to, if I spot anybody at all that's struggling with mental ill health or are in a victim, a victim of domestic violence or abuse or emotional abuse, I want to be able to know what to say and how to support them.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: It's very simple.
52:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm a nice human being, you know, and and Ruby's grown up in a world as your daughter is that is way more complicated than you know the world that we that we grew up in, especially with online input.
52:22
SPEAKER_01: And there's scammers, there's romance scams, there's the Tindler Swindler, there's you know, Netflix are covering it, the maid, you know, the doc, you know, the the series The Maid.
52:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, this it's it's becoming mainstream.
52:34
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I mentioned to you this this morning, you know, I'm going on Radio Suffolk to talk about financial abuse.
52:39
SPEAKER_01: It's being spoken about, um, and the law and the changes in law have supported that.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: But advisors and planners are just primed to have a conversation that won't stir any concern.
52:50
SPEAKER_01: And they can say, um, you know, just quickly, I was I was with an I was actually with a firm and it just it was it was interesting.
52:57
SPEAKER_01: I was there on the day, and the mortgage advisor lady, she came in and she said, she said, Am I right in thinking?
53:03
SPEAKER_01: She said, I've seen you on social media, she said, Am I right in thinking that you know about financial abuse?
53:07
SPEAKER_01: And I was in to do a review and some coaching, and I said, I am.
53:10
SPEAKER_01: She said, Can I borrow you for 10 minutes?
53:12
SPEAKER_01: I need you for 10 minutes.
53:13
SPEAKER_01: I said, Oh my god, absolutely.
53:15
SPEAKER_01: I said, Can we break?
53:15
SPEAKER_01: And I spent 10 minutes with her.
53:17
SPEAKER_01: And effectively, what she had spotted was that the not even to do with the mortgage, but the the the wife, she um, she had she was quite wealthy, and her children were basically trying to coerce her into not investing money.
53:36
SPEAKER_01: This was outside of the mortgage conversation, not investing money, but to gift the money, right?
53:44
SPEAKER_01: And um, and I said to her literally on the spot, I said, based on what she was telling me only, I said, it's not the children, it'll be one of the partners of the children who's coercively controlling the son, who is then rallying the sisters to basically go together mob handed to mom, because he won't be spotted as being coercively trying to coercively control mom if he's got his sisters on board.
54:08
SPEAKER_01: And she meant she man, I told her, I literally told her what's going on.
54:11
SPEAKER_01: And she messaged me a little while back and she's like, Oh my god, you are absolutely bang on.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: But I knew what I was looking for.
54:19
SPEAKER_01: You could see the and I've not even spoken to the client, I'd only spoken to the mortgage advisor.
54:23
SPEAKER_01: And that's the power of knowledge in this area.
54:26
SPEAKER_03: Michelle, what I love about what you just said there, and it was trickling through my mind while she was speaking, was the position of this qualification, you know, let's get out the mindset that it's only for financial advisors.
54:38
SPEAKER_03: It's perfect for people that are in power planning positions, compliance roles because they can spot the signs.
54:44
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
54:44
SPEAKER_03: Doesn't it?
54:45
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's it's not just the advisor, it's it's everybody within the business can benefit from it.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: It's everybody.
54:51
SPEAKER_01: And do you know what?
54:51
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, our business specializes in financial services.
54:54
SPEAKER_01: So I, you know, I do I do play a financial services tune, of course, because that's my market.
55:00
SPEAKER_01: But you know, we've got people who have done the course who are um counselors, therapists.
55:06
SPEAKER_01: We've been we've been speaking to the association of hair and beauty therapists to actually get all of their hair and beauty therapists qualified to the financial abuse specialist.
55:14
SPEAKER_03: It's a great lot, yeah.
55:15
SPEAKER_01: Because who's talking to the who's talking?
55:17
SPEAKER_01: Who was who's lying on the couch having their waxing done or their hair cut?
55:21
SPEAKER_01: Who are they talking to?
55:22
SPEAKER_01: Therapists and hairdressers.
55:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:24
SPEAKER_01: And none of them know what to spot, not really.
55:26
SPEAKER_01: So, yes, we are talking about the sector and our magical industry that we've got and we're in, but it's a it's a non a non-specific sector qualification.
55:37
SPEAKER_01: It's just we are in financial services.
55:39
SPEAKER_03: Wellbeing is it is massive at the moment.
55:42
SPEAKER_03: Um, it's an area that we're all looking to improve.
55:45
SPEAKER_03: You know, we as a company here at Recruit UK have been doing so much around well-being.
55:49
SPEAKER_03: I've changed a complete career framework to support it because we were overworking with people, we weren't responsible for people's mental health stress levels.
55:57
SPEAKER_03: We completely changed the business to ensure that our staff are come first and that we have things in place to support them in whatever situation they are in.
56:06
SPEAKER_03: We've had to be brave as business owners to do that, you know, things like the working from home and all that kind of stuff.
56:12
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, you know, unlimited holiday.
56:14
SPEAKER_03: And we've had to be brave in areas.
56:16
SPEAKER_03: We've had to put our put hands in our pockets as well to put things into place.
56:20
SPEAKER_03: But the response that we're getting from the guys out there is just unbelievable.
56:24
SPEAKER_03: You know, they're so happy in their, you know, in the job that they are doing.
56:28
SPEAKER_03: They feel supported, they clearly understand their expectations, our expectations.
56:33
SPEAKER_03: And I think well-being within the workplace is a massive one, as much as well-being for the clients that we all look after in our daily lives.
56:40
SPEAKER_03: Talk to me a little bit about what you're doing and what's in the pipeline.
56:42
SPEAKER_03: I know that you've got something or it's out.
56:45
SPEAKER_03: It's the well-being excellence standards.
56:47
SPEAKER_03: Tell us a little bit about that then as well.
56:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:49
SPEAKER_01: So I'm just going to backtrack and then I'll bring forward.
56:51
SPEAKER_01: So what's what we've built on from doing the financial abuse specialist um course and qualification is that that's awarded to individuals.
56:59
SPEAKER_01: So Sam Oakes could get the financial abuse specialist course, right?
57:03
SPEAKER_01: Certification.
57:04
SPEAKER_01: What we've been working on, and we're soon to launch, is a standard called ISO 22458, which is actually a standard in consumer vulnerability.
57:13
SPEAKER_01: So let's imagine the, you know, let's imagine you're a financial planning practice.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: You, as a financial advisor planner, could get the financial abuse qualification.
57:21
SPEAKER_01: Your organization could be certified to the vulnerability standard.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of coming at it from all levels.
57:28
SPEAKER_01: And that's really consumer focused, okay, client focused.
57:32
SPEAKER_01: But naturally, going through that process, the skills that you'll learn as an individual and the policies and procedures that you will put in place as an organization will allow you to be able to spot vulnerability in your workforce because there's well-being and there's vulnerabilities.
57:48
SPEAKER_01: So the financial abuse course and the standard in vulnerability spots vulnerabilities internally and externally, specifically in vulnerabilities, right?
57:57
SPEAKER_01: The well-being standard is a standard called ISO 45,003, these big numbers, right?
58:04
SPEAKER_01: And they're not, they don't make it easy for us.
58:06
SPEAKER_01: But effectively, it's the what we're calling it the workplace well-being standard of excellence because we would assess you as a business, your policies, your controls, your management buy-in, your leadership, your provision of employee support, you know, um, employee assistance programs, well-being programs, well-being first haters, you know, well-being champions, everything that you've just rattled off that you do, which quite frankly, you know, gives other recruitment firms a run for their money.
58:35
SPEAKER_01: Because if I was in recruitment, where would I want to go and work?
58:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, I want to go and work with you, for you, with that well-being certification, which is the beacon to draw me into you.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: Because I know that you as an organization have been independently checked by an organization like mine to make sure that you are putting your money where your mouth is, not I've got a fruit ball and we have snacks at 11 o'clock, right?
58:57
SPEAKER_01: 100% between right.
58:59
SPEAKER_01: And you should feel very proud of what you've done.
59:02
SPEAKER_01: The difference is though, Sam, no one knows you do that unless you've got a mark above the door.
59:06
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
59:06
SPEAKER_01: Sadly.
59:07
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
59:08
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, so there's a there's an element of that.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: So the well-being standard is really about and the organization's responsibilities and care and duties around employee and team, psycho safety, um, well-being, stress levels, work levels.
59:26
SPEAKER_01: It's everything everything that you can imagine to make employees and team feel safe, supported, secure, happy in their role.
59:35
SPEAKER_01: And it positively impacts the bottom line, right?
59:38
SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, we've obviously got, you know, and I've mentioned this to you before, you know, we have got a gravy train coming through financial services, and it's about financial well-being.
59:46
SPEAKER_01: And I've stood up many times, and that's not to, you know, discredit anybody that's working in financial well-being, but there's no such thing as financial well-being, it's just well-being, right?
59:56
SPEAKER_01: My mental well-being, my, you know, my physical well-being, my financial well-being.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_01: It makes me well, right?
1:00:04
SPEAKER_01: And we're all about people, not financially well people, right?
1:00:08
SPEAKER_01: So I think the well-being standard is about, first of all, as organizations, to say, you know, what framework, this framework we can adopt to be able to meet the requirements of this standard, we can be independently assessed by an organization like mine, and we can go in and we can make sure that you're doing everything that an international standard, a benchmark, has set out for you to do as an organization in the area of well-being.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: Naturally, if you implement this standard and maintain it, of course, that then elements of well-being are going to overspill into what you do for clients and your firms and your consumers.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_01: And you know, you can't help it.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_01: You won't be able to help it, right?
1:00:49
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's going to um it's going to have a ripple effect.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_01: And these are the two standards, in addition to the financial abuse qualification, that I am most excited about because it's like it's like all the work I've done for 25 years, it's like there were a few gaps, one in well-being and one in financial abuse and the economic abuse piece.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_01: And I almost feel like, you know, and the vulnerability piece, and I always feel like I've put a big red bow over everything that this sector needs and I've tied it tight.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's like these certifications and these standards are not just tick box exercises, they are deep intimate a process of just making sure that you've got the skills, you've got the processes, you've got the organizational structures and the management systems in place to just smash it out of the park for the benefit of turning an industry not into just a profession, and moving it away from trade, not just to a profession, but to actually businesses that are well run for the benefit of its clients and its team.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's it, to be fair, Sam.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I love it.
1:01:49
SPEAKER_03: And I think you're absolutely spot on.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_03: You're where, you know, it's it's something that's not being I commented on your post, didn't I?
1:01:54
SPEAKER_03: I said it's bad bloody time, because it's something that's not being done correctly or looked at in the financial planning profession, the one that I focus on now.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_03: In recruitment, it is.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's had to because of the bad press that recruitment's had around long hours, bloody cocaineness and drugs and drinking and you know, spending too much money, excess and bullying and all those horrible things that you hear about within a kind of high pressure sales, again, male-dominated at times environment.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_03: And it's had to change.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_03: And the companies that I'm seeing within the in the fun in the recruitment space that are doing it, there's no um no amazement that they're not attracting more interesting people to come and work for them and good quality staff as well.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_03: So having the well be a well-being standard in place.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_03: Now we're going through B Corp at the moment.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_03: So we're doing B Corp, which is about people and planet.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_03: Now, one of the interesting things of doing that is you think you you think you're doing really well, and then you go through the application, and of course, you're looking at it and you're thinking, Oh, I'm not doing that.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I'm not doing that, that's interesting.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_03: So all of a sudden you have this idea that you're doing really well, and actually against the competition, you are, yeah, but there's all these other things that you can do that aren't tricky or taxing.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_03: No, I'll tell you what, they also do is they kind of give they fill you up.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_03: Your self-worth fills up because we're doing good, whether it's people, planet, clients, uh, vendors, people that work for us, yeah.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_03: You start to feel good about what it is you're doing, and you start to build this process, a continual process of well-being.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_03: Because well-being isn't like a tick box, oh, I've got a name above my door.
1:03:32
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely not.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_03: Therefore, it's a continual process because otherwise you'll you know you can lose your accreditation or your score can go down.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_03: And also, if you're giving it the big one on social media that you want a well-being focused company, and people leave and they want to leave a you know, a review on glass door that says Sam is talking shit, it's all like absolutely it's all marketing, then you're you're gonna get fanged out in this day and age.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's why that's why the independent assessments are good, you know, whether it be B Corp or Wellbeing Standard.
1:04:01
SPEAKER_01: And actually, it's interesting because one of our we're gonna actually focus on targeting to raise awareness of the well-being standard with B Corp organizations, because what if you imagine what B Corp does is this the well-being standard just takes a bit and pulls it in.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_01: It's almost this channel here, specifically around well-being in the workplace, specifically.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's interesting, these are all complementary, but the value of them, Sam, is that somebody else is coming into your business and saying, Show me, yeah, show me what you do, tell me what you do.
1:04:34
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about why you do that, why you don't do that.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I've done many podcasts for, you know, a bit like this, but specifically around, you know, I'm working in financial services, you know, and I want if I want to move roles, you know, what should I be asking the potential employer?
1:04:50
SPEAKER_01: What things should I be looking for?
1:04:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, absolutely, it's you know, the question is what's your well, the question that every potential recruit is asking of their new potential employer is what's your well-being strategy?
1:05:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_01: And just watch them hope the ground opens up and swallows them whole because they won't have an answer.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_01: And if anybody on here can't answer that, answer that question, they need to contact us and have a conversation around this standard.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_01: Because it's the recruitment's the biggest challenge in the sector at the moment.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_01: People don't want to work for the you know, the the highest profile firm anymore.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_01: Because if it's if it's fur coat and no knickers, because actually they talk a good game but deliver nothing other than to their clients who are king, no one will stay.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_01: No one will stay in that firm.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_01: So I think you know, we've opened we've opened up, and you know, it's been on social media, but we've opened up this expression of interest of people that want to work in organizations to sign up for the well being standard in the first cohort, the pilot.
1:05:45
SPEAKER_01: Um so we welcome anybody to do that.
1:05:47
SPEAKER_01: The FAS is the FAS is an ongoing, it's online, can be done anytime, you know, and it's such an emotional roller coaster.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_01: Like I did, I did mine.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_01: I've obviously I was the second person in the in the world to be certified to it.
1:05:59
unknown: Um
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I did it in literally eight hours flat, and I literally smashed it and I immersed myself in it.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_01: I cried, I felt sick, I laughed, I smiled, you know, I was angry, I was frustrated all in one day, but what a journey, what a journey.
1:06:16
SPEAKER_01: And then every year I refresh that knowledge and resubmit evidence to maintain my certification.
1:06:21
SPEAKER_01: And that's what those that go for it would need to do.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_01: It's just one of those amazing things that you're just like, oh my God, I've learned way more than I ever thought I was going to do in it.
1:06:30
SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's it's a it's a game changer in terms of your own, as is, in my opinion, the mental health first data training.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_01: It's it's equally as valuable.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_03: Just go back to the financial advice abuse, the financial abuse specialist um qualification and the fact that we are in this kind of everybody's doing qualifications, people worry about their time.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_03: How long does it take to do it?
1:06:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, I reckon you could probably do it in about I reckon you could do it in a day.
1:06:55
SPEAKER_03: I reckon, okay.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_01: I reckon you could do it in a day.
1:06:57
SPEAKER_01: And I and I and we recommend that you do do it in a set period.
1:07:02
SPEAKER_01: Because basically you log in and there's case studies and there's stories and there's research papers.
1:07:08
SPEAKER_01: And then basically, as we maneuver you through the course, there's um like check-ins like what have you learned from this?
1:07:14
SPEAKER_01: What did you think about this?
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: Think about your thinking.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's like a journey, it's like you're on a ride at the fairground and it's just chugging you along.
1:07:23
SPEAKER_01: And you work your way through.
1:07:24
SPEAKER_01: And then at the end, what you need to do is you need to submit an assessment booklet, which is all of your findings, all of your thoughts, and what what you your opinions are.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a quiz in the we call it a quiz, it's not really a quiz, but like a question and answer section.
1:07:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then they have to upload their processes and controls in terms of if this happened in your business, what would you do about it?
1:07:47
SPEAKER_01: Right?
1:07:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I, you know, I was on the phone to a very, very well-known uh discretionary fund manager recently, and I said, just out of interest.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: I said, What would I, what would I say, what would you do if I said to you that if I was an advisor and one of your clients, and I said, Um, I don't want you to invest that money or withdraw that money because I think the client is a victim of coercive control.
1:08:06
SPEAKER_01: I said, what would you do?
1:08:07
SPEAKER_01: He went, I had no idea.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_01: No idea.
1:08:10
SPEAKER_01: So the controls and the policies are not there at the the head of level, which we want to see as an assessment body.
1:08:16
SPEAKER_01: And then they upload a video talking about how they feel, what they're going to do about raising awareness of financial abuse, what they're going to do for their clients, and all that is then independently assessed in our business by an independent verifier.
1:08:28
SPEAKER_01: And then we award certification if we feel like you know they're on the right track, they've understood, and they can apply and have applied their knowledge.
1:08:36
SPEAKER_01: So I reckon if you do it in eight hours, amazing.
1:08:40
SPEAKER_01: If you can we we really suggest that you just smash it out of the park and just do it.
1:08:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's the best eight hours you've ever spent.
1:08:46
SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
1:08:46
SPEAKER_03: That's great.
1:08:47
SPEAKER_03: Michelle, you um you fix similar I'm with I with similar with similarities between you and me.
1:08:52
SPEAKER_03: We see situations and we want to fix them.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_03: Um and it's coming from a position of help and care and love and kindness.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think you know, I'm doing something at the moment.
1:09:02
SPEAKER_03: I I've just partnered with a charity because you said something earlier about men jumping off the you know the bridge over in in in Australia, you know, and we've got a big, you know, one of the biggest killers for men up to the age of 49 is suicide.
1:09:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:09:14
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I'd have I've spoken to lots and lots of men within the financial planning profession over the years.
1:09:19
SPEAKER_03: I had to do something.
1:09:20
SPEAKER_03: So I've partnered with Talk Club, um, which is a charity, it's a men's talk club focused for men.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_03: And I've partnered with them and created the talk club financial planner life to bring talk club into the financial planning profession.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_03: So we're having our first talk club um next Tuesday.
1:09:35
SPEAKER_03: I feel really proud about it, really, because it's a charity.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_03: It's not something where someone goes along and networks.
1:09:40
SPEAKER_03: It's not, we're not charging people loads of money, but we're trying to bring open communication into a profession which is predominantly stiff upper lip, men not talking and opening up.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think it's going to have an incredibly positive impact.
1:09:53
SPEAKER_03: So watch that space.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_03: I'll let you know how I get on with that.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I I would equally be very keen to support you, Sam, in that because you know, we we've obviously got oodles of stats around, you know, women who are victims of financial abuse, females that are victims of financial abuse, but you know, I I can't get men to talk about it.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_01: I can't get men for the course to interview because they won't talk about it, they're shamed, you know.
1:10:17
SPEAKER_01: And and one of the um one of the just again a stat around the men piece, you know, if one in seven men are a victim of economic abuse in your group, well, go go with those numbers, right?
1:10:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, but um, whereas in when there's an abusive relationship, 37% of women are likely to leave, but only 16% of men are.
1:10:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_01: Men stay and stay in supportive relationship in abusive relationships because they are the breadwinner potentially, you know, they are the masculine in the unit, um, they are the you know, the hunter-gatherer, um, and and and they stay.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_01: And the abuse goes on for much longer.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_01: And the stats are going to be way higher than one in seven.
1:10:54
SPEAKER_01: It's just we can't get them to openly admit.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_03: There you are, pride.
1:10:58
SPEAKER_03: You know, these these, yeah, you're absolutely spotted.
1:11:00
SPEAKER_03: I'm really pleased you said that because it's not just a one-way street of abuse, it's it's in all different levels of relationships, and we have very different relationships now in the in the world.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_03: It happens at every level.
1:11:11
SPEAKER_01: It does.
1:11:11
SPEAKER_03: And um, I'm really pleased that you've you've you've made that assumption, and it's not like a man-bashing type situation.
1:11:17
SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely not.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely not.
1:11:19
SPEAKER_01: And in fact, you know, if I think about the people that we've interacted with, I can't get them to come online um because they won't.
1:11:26
SPEAKER_01: But you know, I've got a friend at the moment who's uh at the male and he's in a coercively controlling relationship.
1:11:32
SPEAKER_01: And um I was having a conversation with him some time back, and you know, I I often said to him, prior to my knowledge and understanding this area more, I'd say to him, you know, why don't you leave?
1:11:41
SPEAKER_01: Why don't you leave?
1:11:43
SPEAKER_01: And actually I rephrase the different, I rephrase the question differently and I said, What's making what's she doing that's making you stay?
1:11:49
SPEAKER_01: And as a result of that, he's now leaving.
1:11:52
SPEAKER_01: We found him a place, you know, he's gonna be safe, he's gonna be happy, but it's all because I changed the question.
1:11:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I took the onus off of him and put the onus on her as to what was she doing that made him stay, that was making him feel like he had to stay.
1:12:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's dealt with with supporting him out of that situation.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it is men, males are massively a victim of this.
1:12:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, they get spoken.
1:12:16
SPEAKER_01: Look at Johnny Depp, look at the whole thing that's going on with Amber Heard and Johnny Depp.
1:12:20
SPEAKER_01: No one will believe you, Johnny, because you're a white male who's gonna believe you're a victim of domestic abuse.
1:12:26
SPEAKER_01: But he was, you know, and there are thousands, hundreds of thousands like him, you know.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was just thinking the Johnny Depp thing then, because it's like it's almost being kind of like it's being publicly displayed, but and people think, do we really want to see this?
1:12:39
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, celebrities.
1:12:41
SPEAKER_03: But at the same time, it's a very interesting social um observation experiment, whatever we're gonna call it.
1:12:47
SPEAKER_03: It's very interesting.
1:12:48
SPEAKER_03: Um and I think um what comes off the end of it and what comes up the back of it, regardless of their stature in their celebrity, it's uh it will it will trickle down to absolutely every single person on this planet who who cares what's going on at Johnny Depps.
1:13:03
SPEAKER_01: Abuse doesn't discriminate.
1:13:04
SPEAKER_03: No, it there you go.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_03: It doesn't, nothing discriminates, absolutely.
1:13:08
SPEAKER_03: Michelle, I'm you know, love talking to you.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_03: I really want to keep our lines of communication open because I think there's something that we can do from a partnership perspective.
1:13:15
SPEAKER_03: I have lots of access to financial planning firms.
1:13:17
SPEAKER_03: Well-being is something that I'm very super interested in, whether it's we put together some seminar or something, Sam gets people looking at this.
1:13:24
SPEAKER_03: And I'm really keen to find out more about the because I can do this well-being qualification as well, this well-being certification as well, can't I?
1:13:32
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, you can.
1:13:33
SPEAKER_03: And I can put that to my business.
1:13:34
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
1:13:35
SPEAKER_01: I'd love to, I'd love to come in and see what you're doing.
1:13:38
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, I would love it.
1:13:39
SPEAKER_03: That sounds really interesting.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna look into that a little bit further because we've got the B Corp side, and I think this complements it.
1:13:45
SPEAKER_03: And what I like about it in the structure of a business, and one of the things I'm gonna say before we sign off is that if anyone's listening to something else, I haven't got time or even I'm just not that interested in well-being.
1:13:54
SPEAKER_03: I guarantee you there's somebody in your business who is.
1:13:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, give it to them, let them do it.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's another reason why boards need to open up a little bit.
1:14:02
SPEAKER_03: If you're absolutely a person manager, bring somebody in next to you who's got those skill sets, that intuition, and get them doing it because it will trickle down.
1:14:12
SPEAKER_01: They'll eat it for breakfast, they'll gobble it up for breakfast because they'll love it.
1:14:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
1:14:16
SPEAKER_03: Amazing.
1:14:16
SPEAKER_03: Listen, thank you so much for your time, Stan.
1:14:18
SPEAKER_03: I need you to get on with your next busy day because you've got your radio show.
1:14:21
SPEAKER_03: I have nice one, Michelle.
1:14:23
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Sam.
1:14:24
SPEAKER_03: Have a beautiful day.
1:14:25
SPEAKER_03: Cheers.