Latest / Under The Fur / The Dog We Couldn’t Give Up On — with Helen
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome back to Under the Fur. And in this episode, we are going to speak to Helen, who has worked in the NHS for 30 years, 20 years in clinical practice as a nurse. So very much knows the ins and outs of veterinary medicine because of her own experiences and being a pet owner. And that is what I would love to speak to you about today, Helen. Thank you. You have had dogs for a long time. speaker-1: Since 1991. wow. was a golden retriever and I worked in older people services and one of my staff, her beautiful bitch Lucy had puppies and there are only two and she brought them in to see me in a carrier, in a bag. in a shopping bag. ⁓ speaker-0: What was your first? do say? Shopping. speaker-1: Yeah, a shopping bag and this little puppy poked its head over the top of the shopping bag and that was it. Yeah. That was Monty. speaker-0: and that was yours. So your first dog was Golden Retriever. ⁓ so you just, you love them and you just kept getting them since. speaker-1: had foregone. And our second golden retriever, we'd already decided would be called Archie. Yep. And we'd seen two lots of breeders went to the second one and she had, was in her home, they're really lovely dogs. And she said, we said to her, how, how do you ever let them go? And she said, well, I've stopped naming them. And we decided that we'd call one Archie. She said, except for Archie here. Yep. And. She said, but he's not going anywhere. I'm keeping him. I suppose we said, that's who we want. Anyway, her husband told us she couldn't keep him. that we got Archie. So you got Archie. And Freddie is Archie's great nephew. ⁓ I didn't know that. Yeah, he came from the same breeder. speaker-0: So ⁓ it's funny, isn't it? How you choose the breed and then you just stick with them. I do the same. I just get the Keter's now all the time. speaker-1: Yeah. And then we got a cocker spaniel as well. Yeah. And we had one rescue golden retriever called Charlie. Yeah. Who came to us when he was four. He came from a broken home and the wife kept the the ⁓ child and husband kept the dog and he worked broad for three weeks out of every six. So Charlie went into kennels for three weeks. No. And when he came to us, he was speaker-0: There's so much time in Canada. speaker-1: He was so overweight and he had green teeth. He'd never had his teeth cleaned. we, had, Archie was only about three months old. So we took Charlie to the vet and the vet said, ⁓ my God, I thought I'd had a nightmare. I'd woken up from a nightmare. saw this beautiful little puppy last week and now I've got this monster of a dog. ⁓ we'll book him in to have his teeth cleaned and things. speaker-0: ⁓ my god. speaker-1: When we started giving things to play with, put him on a diet, the scale just fell off his teeth and he had beautiful teeth. And he was fine. But he was an escape artist. speaker-0: Is this the dog that ate the marijuana plant? Tell us the story. speaker-1: This is the dog who escaped. This is the dog who went on a walkabout one day. By himself. By himself. And he went on a walkabout and I was at work and Penny went out to look for him and somebody rang and said, we've got your dog. There's a house around the corner of us, which was flats. And they'd cleared out for it contents of the fridge. And he had an Elizabethan collar on at the time. he, he, because he had some eczema. And he came out of this garden with his collar full of earth. Came home. I came home from work, went to get him up for his tea and he wouldn't stand up. I didn't want his tea, which was very, very unusual because he's a very greedy dog. Yeah. And so I picked him up. He was huge. Picked him up, put him in the car, took him to the vet and she said, he's very ill. He may well die. ⁓ he had a low pulse rate. Yeah. She said, you need to go back and find out what he had in case it was something like botulism that he'd got. And when we went back, we found four tinfoil containers ⁓ with residue of earth in them and some rather fat cigarette ends. Anyway, so rang the vet and she said, if I didn't know better, I say this dog was stoned. She said, I've just been in to see him. He's in a cage with a drip up and he lifted his arm up, looked at me and grinned. It was like going to a party at university. So that was Charlie. speaker-0: ⁓ So he ate four trays of marijuana. speaker-1: He survived that tell-the-tale. Every time he walked past he tried to get into that garden. speaker-0: That is so much. Yeah, he's trying to go back to his dealer. Wow. So what is it about Goldens that you love? speaker-1: That's right. They're just very soft dogs. Very soft dogs, very affectionate. They're daft. ⁓ And they're lovely dogs. Biddable most of the time. They're also very stubborn though, so if they don't want to do something they won't. speaker-0: It's nice to be kind, but not push over. I'd say describe the retriever that way. And then, so what are the reasons I want you to come on? Cause I wanted you to share your experience with Ellie. So you knew golden retrievers, you loved golden retrievers. speaker-1: And we had a previous cocker spaniel called Evie. ⁓ you did have another cockslyer before. speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. Cause I say you tried, you broke the mold and you got weak. speaker-1: We got a coca spaniel. So we had, we either had two golden retrievers together or a golden retriever and a coca spaniel. So we a chocolate round coca spaniel. speaker-0: And any behavioral issues with the previous Hocus Pániel? No. speaker-1: She's a bit feisty, but nothing bad. speaker-0: Yeah. So are you happy to share what you've been through with Ella? Where do we start? I remember her as very young when she came in for poppy vaccines. Very cute. She's still very cute. speaker-1: I am. She is, she's a very pretty dog. speaker-0: Yeah. And what age was it when she started to show signs of aggression? Seven. Seven months old. So very young. Yeah. Do you remember the first things that she started? speaker-1: Mon- Yeah, she suddenly fly across the room, not at me, but Penny, my partner, and bark at her. So that was the first bit. And then she'd also, our golden retriever, ⁓ Freddie, who's now 11 and a half, he was about nine then, she'd suddenly fly at him as he came in the door and hang on his ears and things. speaker-0: ⁓ gentle Freddie. I mean, I'm Penny, to be fair. speaker-1: I know. And then she hung on his ear so badly one day. Do remember he got a hematoma in his ear and had to have surgery? Yes. And she did it to both ears. Yeah. And he's so soft. He won't ever, he never growls at her, never barks. He just hangs his head and looks very sad. So seven months and then we came and saw you. We talked about it. We talked about what we could do. And eventually we had a referral. to during COVID, well post COVID referral to a veterinary psychologist. And they did everything online. And interestingly, one of Ellie's particular things is if I was to come up to you with my phone to show you something, Ellie would go for you. she's something about. whatever you're doing, sharing something on a phone, I have to tell people. So I mean, so look at this photo. I said, put it down, don't bring it over to see me. Cause she still does it even now. And she, was. speaker-0: So when approaching you or you approaching someone else? Either. ⁓ speaker-1: Either. She's just so 99 % of the time she's absolutely fine. And some morning she'll be sitting, I'll come in and she sat on Penny's lap on her back. Ellie's on her back smiling up at Penny and as happy as can be. And then she'll just growl at her. And she bit her quite badly once. speaker-0: Yeah, I think I remember seeing the bites on Penny and they were quite bad. Did she get treatment? she get antibiotics? speaker-1: She had to have antibiotics. And, ⁓ and cause she's got some health problems and very thin skin cause she's on steroids. So it's worse. Yeah. So we saw the, so we had four sessions with a psychologist. We did quite a lot, a lot of work with Ellie on, and she was put on some medications. Yes. Which we didn't see much improvement with, as you know, she wasn't, ⁓ wasn't very different, but we did lots of training with her. ⁓ And, and she improved, she's improved quite a bit. So we eventually weaned her off the medication and we didn't notice any difference really. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. And it was a difficult decision. The last thing we want to do is make her worse. ⁓ but yeah, you did get her off. And I remember there was a time where mostly for the safety of Penny, we were considering whether or not you keep Ellie. speaker-1: Yeah, we thought very hard about it. I suppose she must have been about two at the time. And ⁓ it was an ongoing problem which we were managing, but it was quite unpredictable. And so we thought very hard about whether or not she could be rehomed. And we decided because she'd bitten, we couldn't really rehome her. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: And we couldn't really home her and even if somebody did take her, we wouldn't know what happened to her and I'd hate for her to be bite somebody else or bite a child and be passed from pillar to post. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was a really big decision. So we decided we'd persevere. Yep. And, ⁓ and we saw two or three other trainers. Yeah. ⁓ we, ⁓ we eventually put her on some different medication, ⁓ which we discussed with you. speaker-0: or euthanized. speaker-1: which seems to have calmed her down a bit. And then I think one of the biggest things was that I took her to ⁓ training, which was one-to-one training with me and her in Home Park near Hampton Court. And Rosie did a lot of games-based training with her, which Ellie loved. And she was really good at responding to the whistle and things like that. she... She loved it and she became much better, much more focused on walks. And we still do it. Yeah. speaker-0: They're one of those breeds that has a very active... speaker-1: So we do a mixture of a bit of agility and we did scent work with her. She really excelled at scent work. So waiting for the next course on that. Just things to keep her mind going. speaker-0: Yeah, that's become more and more popular now. And I think it's really important because there's a lot of people, I've noticed a lot more, I think in the last maybe five years with working lines, but wanting them to be house pets, which is a different conversation. But the problem is that their brains are wired for working and they struggle with home life. many, people have had a lot of success with scent work. it seems to give them enough mental stimulation. Did you ever come to a conclusion why you were never the target but Penny was? speaker-1: and she's really good at it. I think it's because Penny's not very well. I actually think that, you know, they say dogs can sniff this out. And I think, I think it must be something about the fact that Penny's not well. Yeah. That Ellie notices. I don't know. That's the only thing I can think of. speaker-0: That's interesting because I've also, never been able to come up with a solution or conclusion for you. ⁓ as much as I've thought about it and you're not new pet owners. You're not inexperienced with dog behavior with, ⁓ dog, that dog breed. and I've certainly never noticed any issues in the way that you approach her handler. In fact, you're pretty knowledgeable. You know, if I thought of all the pet parents, probably put you in the top tier of knowledgability about pets and things. ⁓ it was really, it's upsetting to speaker-1: It is. And we got her from a breeder in, she's in Birmingham, but I contacted the breeder of Freddie and Archie because she also used to breed blue roan cocker spaniels and she had crufts, entered in crufts and in fact ⁓ Archie's Mum got a place at Cruffes before he was born. she's got very experienced and she still, well, a friend of mine's just had a litter and the grandfather of her litter is my Charlie, who was the most beautiful cocker spaniel we've ever seen. So that's how we got her. So from a recommendation of somebody we'd had two retrievers from, we knew her cocker spaniel. Yeah. So we really, you know, we did our homework. Yeah. speaker-0: And do you know about any of the other coffers in the litter? speaker-1: I spoke to, we've spoken to the breeder. We've kept in contact. She says she's never had any other issues. Never had any other issues. She's still in contact with other dogs in the litter and they're fine. And, but we do keep in contact with her. And she said the same. I'm so impressed that you've done so much work with her because it would have been much easier to have let her go. But it's not really easy to let. It still goes it. speaker-0: ⁓ exactly. And I think if I remember rightly, I mean, you had a conversation where we were concerned for Penny and Penny's safety and Freddie's. Particularly after I had to anesthetize him. we realized at that point that he probably shouldn't have anesthetics anymore. And Penny was the one that put her foot down and said, no, we are not rehoming Ellie. We're not doing that. I can't bear to see something happen to her. We must keep trying. speaker-1: Yeah. So we keep at it. speaker-0: Yes, yeah. And have, are there many incidents since? speaker-1: They've got a lot of incidents, but not as bad. And I think that's because we preempt them. And some of the work I've done with her, which is about when she's going off to do something that she shouldn't really do, I use the word recall, say. Ellie, recall, recall. And she stops long enough for me to bring her back and do something. I also still use, we use a play pen for her as opposed to a crate. and she sleeps in there and she's very happy. She goes in there of her own volition. But if she's being particularly feisty, I'll put her in there for a bit of time out for everybody else's safety. She can see everybody, it's in the same room and that she just goes to sleep. speaker-0: Good. It almost gives her nervous system time to reset. speaker-1: So we do that bit of calm down. And Penny's always very wary about the fact of you throw treats for her if she's doing, and she's, well, that's rewarding bad behavior. I said, no, it's not. She's just giving an alternative. And while she's sniffing for the treats, she's calming down. speaker-0: because we know that eating ⁓ reduces that fight or flight. The system calms it down. Yeah. Yeah. Gives the power sympathetic and calm everything. speaker-1: Yeah. If in the park, if you were to meet us in the park, she rushes up to people. Yeah. She goes up and says hello. Isn't she beautiful? She's a wonderful dog. She's so friendly. She's should lay on her back to have a tummy scrape. And then I think, yeah, she is most of the time. speaker-0: the demon comes out. What do you think about Cocker Rage? speaker-1: I'm not sure if cocker age actually exists. I think it's easy to label it, isn't it? Yeah, of speaker-0: I have cocker rage sometimes. speaker-1: Ellie's obviously got some sort of neurological issue. She's got a, you know, the red mist comes down very quickly and it goes up very quickly. And I think it would be easy to say she's got a coccoration, we've got to deal with it and have her put to sleep. we're just trying to deal with it. speaker-0: Yeah, the behavior is saying that's not the thing. Yeah. Absolutely does not exist. then ⁓ we've seen it. ⁓ speaker-1: Exactly. It might not be copper age, but actually it's something. She's the red mist comes on her. Yeah. Four. She's four. Yeah. She was four. I think. Yeah. Four. speaker-0: So how old is she now? She's almost as old as my clinic. So we still got her about after a year that we were open. Yeah. And we've never had any issues when she's come into the clinic. speaker-1: That's right, we did. We did actually last time when she came in with Ellie and Ellie was giving, trying to examine her. Ellie the vet. Ellie the vet. And ⁓ she turned around and snapped. But I had hold of her. Yeah. She gave her a warning shot. Right. So, all time now. speaker-0: So that's the one time. Was Ellie ill that day? ⁓ speaker-1: Did she have a cold? Yeah, no, but most of the time she's absolutely fine. And Ellie said to me, should we put a muzzle on her? Because she knows about her behavior. I said, ⁓ no, she'll be fine. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ isn't that ironic? Yeah. Cause I, that's what I I don't think I've ever muscled her. ⁓ speaker-1: But you see, she comes into the vets, she? She into the practice, she rushes in, she's happy to see everybody. Goes behind the desk. speaker-0: over on her back for belly rubs. Yeah. She's such a lovely dog. Until the demon comes out. Yeah. Yeah. If you had your time again, would you get another cocker spaniel? speaker-1: Most of the time. Probably not actually. I know what Penny always says to me, Penny said to me when we got Freddie, should I've got, before we got him, should I've got one more big dog in me? And I said, I'm not sure, which is, I'm not sure. Perhaps we should just stick to smaller dogs. And then when Freddie was 10 months old on boxing day, she was in the park with, in Bushy Park with him. ⁓ And we'd had a very odd Christmas day at Friends. speaker-0: It's been tough for you. speaker-1: So I was doing the whole Christmas day thing again on Boxing Day. So I was at home, hadn't had a drink on Christmas day because I'd driven. So I was just about to open a bottle of champagne and the phone went and I looked at it. I thought, I don't recognize that number. But I answered it anyway and it was Penny on somebody else's phone. And she said, I've broken my leg. ⁓ yes. And I said, what? Don't be ridiculous. And she said, I've broken my leg. Somebody's got me back to the car. I'm in the car. Can you come and get me?" So I walked to Bushy Park. It's not that far, only about half an hour's walk. Dogs are in the boot. She's on the back seat. And I said, what happened? And Freddie, who was 10 months old, was playing with another young golden retriever. And they were running around and she saw him coming towards her and he just misjudged it and clipped her leg and broke her leg. speaker-0: Merry Christmas. Did she have to have surgery? speaker-1: She did. And she had, she was in hospital. The interesting thing was that we were, we got into A &E. It was a very busy boxing day and nobody else looked really ill. You know, coughs and colds and hangovers. And after we've been waiting for ages, I went and saw the receptionist and I said, could we have some pain relief? Cause she's broken her leg. And she said, you don't know she's broken her leg. said, She knows she's broken her leg. She's a doctor. I'm a nurse. She's broken her leg. So we went into triage and she saw a junior doctor who said, ⁓ well, it's just a chip. We'll put a back slab on and you can go home and come back tomorrow. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Anyway, you know, they'd X-rayed it. Because the X-ray was up on the screen and I looked at it and I said, that's broken. That's displaced. That's what I thought. And with that, somebody else came in who'd seen Penny two years before when she broke her wrist walking the dogs and she slipped over. speaker-0: with no x-ray. At least they know it's not the dogs who didn't think you were abusing her. speaker-1: And he said, ⁓ are you waiting for the orthopods to come down? And she said, no, I'm waiting for a backslab and going home. He said, no, you're not. Yeah. Absolutely not. So she got admitted because it needed pinning and plating, but theaters have been flooded. So she was in hospital for five days and cause she couldn't move cause she'd also broken a bone in her hand. she was in a lot of of a pickle. speaker-0: You ⁓ wow. What a Christmas. Was she out for New Year at least? Probably couldn't have a drink. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. No, she was five days, so she did get out just before New Year. ⁓ Very wary, walking around with a frame and things. speaker-0: Hey. Then did you have it in the neck because she told you she didn't have it speaker-1: No, she said she did have another big, was me who said, I don't know that we have got another big dog in. speaker-0: Maybe you got to say I told you so. I did. speaker-1: Anyway, and after we had Ellie, she said, we should have had another golden retriever. I said, Last dog. is the last dog. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I'm, I'm 71 now. So by the time Ellie's reached her end of her life, we got another dog. I'd be in my eighties. I think I can do another one. Maybe a rescue dog. speaker-0: No fanny. Yeah. Maybe, yeah. Yeah. One that you know is chilled. Older rescue dog. I sometimes think that's nice because they don't get rehomed. And actually, if you want to relax dog and you know, then he's going to get a good home with you. ⁓ Yeah. Okay. There's one other thing I want to talk to you about because ⁓ we have a lot of conversations about how speaker-1: Yeah, Charlie Ross. Charlie was very relaxed. speaker-0: veterinary medicine is going and the changes and everything. And I think I told you recently that I was approached by someone who wanted to buy the vet station. I did have conversation with them because I just thought it was worth the conversation and they made an offer. It was quite a lot of money. ⁓ My husband's heart fell out of him when I said I turned it down. ⁓ honestly, God, as I was having the discussion with them. I heard your voice in the back of my head and I thought, ⁓ she's going to kill me if I sell. I was like, I wouldn't be able to tell Helen. speaker-1: Well, the reason we came to you was that we used to go to an independent vet who then sold the practice and didn't actually tell anyone that it had been sold to a large company and things changed. They did change. It was not quite the same, more rushed, more difficult to get an appointment. we used to just pop in and things. And then we happened to be, we came... We were coming to get fish and chips from the fish and chip shop next to you and you just opened. So we came in and had a look around and we met you and we met your staff and it's further for us to come, but we really liked the feel of the practice and we liked the fact it was an independent practice and that everyone was very friendly. And I know that if I ring up and say, we've got a problem, like when Ellie had a grass seed. Yes. And I rang up and said, Ellie's got grass seed. then you said, bring her in straight away. Now I was talking to somebody the other day who said their dog had a grass seed and they said, well, we haven't got any appointments today. Bring her in tomorrow. Yeah. speaker-0: It's so painful. ⁓ this is shame. speaker-1: So she took us somewhere else, but. speaker-0: Are they that busy there? I mean, I would just stay late anyway. had one last night actually. I was there not too late, but it came in at the end of the day because they couldn't get into their own practice and it was down the year right by the year drum about to go through. I thought actually, thank God you came down. If this was tomorrow, it have actually penetrated. speaker-1: And as you know, now I make Ellie snoods. Yes. And we walk around the park and everyone says, ⁓ is that a cooling house? And I no, it's to stop the grass season. speaker-0: I mentioned you when I was on Channel 5, have you watched it? No, I mentioned you. said one of my clients has made snoods for their dog to stop them from having it. speaker-1: And everyone says, where do you buy them? I said, well, I make them. They're really easy. And I just buy neckerchief things from Amazon and run some last sticks through it. She has different colors to match her colors. it saves a lot of money. But more importantly, it saves her having pain because she was so painful. speaker-0: It's horrible. ⁓ speaker-1: ⁓ So far so good this year and last year. speaker-0: So the thing about the change, was it like the honesty? You just wanted clarity. speaker-1: we wanted to know that we'd see the same people and that, yeah. ⁓ but we could also have a thing that was about the practice and felt we could have conversations with you. like all the difficult conversations we've had about Ellie, it felt as if we could have the conversations and you never rushed us. So you knew it, you, you appreciated how important it was. speaker-0: Yeah, it's just very important. speaker-1: And you had the time for us to have the conversations and all your staff had been exactly the same. And it just feels comfortable. speaker-0: Yeah, it's one of the questions the vets I've employed recently have asked. They said, how long is a consult? I said, well, 15 minutes or what you need, because not everything is 15 minutes. Some things are 30 minutes. These are five minutes. Exactly. So I was like, it's what you need. If you feel like you need longer, then you get longer. there's no point because on, and the other thing is we have to have consent for treatment. How can I have consent for treatment if the person that I'm speaking to doesn't understand? speaker-1: 17 sub 5s speaker-0: what I'm saying or hasn't been explained all of their options. You can't squeeze that into 15 minutes sometimes. Well, we've recently been through it with Freddie as well. He's had a lot done. speaker-1: Yeah, we have, Yeah, he has. And again, we were on holiday when he became unwell. Yeah. And so we made the decision to come back early. Yes. So that we could come to our vets as opposed to him being treated somewhere else. And he sort of came on well over a couple of days. And the night before we made the decision to come home the next day and the day before we came home, I'd taking him out late at night. We don't have a garden there, but lots of grounds. So I have to take him out on a lead. And he was having difficulty having his bowels open and he was very uncomfortable and groaning and crying. And I thought it might be a prostate problem. I just, cause he was an unmuted 11 year old dog. so I rang up first thing in the morning, said we were coming back. It's a five and a half hour drive. bottom of Cornwall. And again, they said, well, just ring us when you're an hour away, we'll stay. In fact, we came within your opening times, but we'll stay. But the funny thing was that I'd been up with him until about three o'clock in the morning and he was sick as well. And about half past three, I went to bed, he settled down. And next morning got up early to, and Penny said, ⁓ we all had a good night's sleep then. She took her hearing aids out and that was it. And, he came in and saw Jill and she knew immediately what the problem was. And then we had, and of course he's got heart murmur as well. So we've been through all the, scan him and make sure he was okay. But you know, We had the conversation, Penny said, are you sure you're happy to do this? And it's not a, it wasn't a criticism of anybody at all, but it was just, do you have the support for him if if he, if he goes off? And I know that you'll only anesthetize him when Callum's there. speaker-0: He's got his team. We decided probably because I'm the fastest surgeon, I would be taking the little tumor off. Callum's obviously got the expertise with the anesthetics. So it was like, he's got to be involved as well. And then we had to have her on a day where we had backup in case, in case anything happened. mean, God forbid we'd have to CPR him. need five people jumping in and know what they're doing. speaker-1: And he was fine. speaker-0: He was actually an amazing anesthetic. speaker-1: It was so good. Really quick. And all the problems we've ever had before putting him in Elizabethan collar, which he crashes about the bought him a ⁓ special suit affair for large neutered dogs. And it was wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. Yeah. So it worked well. speaker-0: after all the work. Yeah, thank you so much for coming in and sharing your stories today. speaker-1: That's okay. Thank you for this and thank you and your team. speaker-0: Thank you. You're welcome. I'll pass it on to them. I'm so impressed with them staying late for you. ⁓ Thank you.