Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / A Look at Modern Friendship: Part 1

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A Look at Modern Friendship: Part 1 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is any and Samantha, I want for stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I never told you Protection of my Heart Radio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: And welcome to another episode where Anie and I have collaborated.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: So it's gonna be fun and we're talking about friendships
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: because so what else could be more fun than that?
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Except yes, it is us and it is me who
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: likes to think things a little pessimistically. But that's okay,
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: you guys know already. Ray.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Also, just be clear, we do collaborate often, but the
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: way that our outlines works and we usually have one
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: person take the lead.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when I say collaborate on this one, we did
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: separate research and then just lapped them together and then
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about it together. Yeah, as opposed
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: to like one thought process, Like we both have different
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: thoughts and different angles that we came in from. Yeah,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: this is and it's a lot. It's a lot. So
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: you know what, as we start we I think we've
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: talked a little bit about our meet cute, as I've
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: taught you this word a bit, but I think we
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: should start the show off with how we became such
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: a dynamic duo because we've talked a little about here
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: and there and then like there are pictures that mysteriously
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: popped out later that we're like, oh, we met before.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Apparently your boyfriend that I have never met was in
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: the picture somewhere or was around at that point in time.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Right, uh huh oh yeah he was my ex boyfriend.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. Yeah, there's a picture of like professional
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: picture was taken at an event where you were working
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: behind the bar and it was like a signs of
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Beer event and I was there with my then boyfriend.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: There's a picture of you and I.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Am exchanging drinks.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And later I was like, oh my god, but.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: It was actually Caroline previous host who had seen this picture,
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: was like, wait is this so and so? Is this
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Annie and Samantha and I was like wait wait And
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: this was after we I think we had started the
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: show right when we discovered a picture not the actual picture.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: So yeah, a lot of this is in part thanks
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: to Caroline, who she and I were close and met
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: through other friends during height girl times of us talking
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: about a dude.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so Caroline I became friends and I figured
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: out that she knew Kristen, who I had known through
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: another great friend of mine from Athens. Who's writing. I've
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: been in. I know their entire family, so it was
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: such a like overlap. But me and you we met
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: through Caroline specifically. The introduction to you was you and
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: old coworker and friend Sarah Uh coming to Carolines she
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: finished her book party. Yeah, essentially, when she had just
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: recently left stuff on the member told you and you
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: were not quite the host yet, but you were working
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: with how stuff works, and we all met. But because
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: I was overwhelmed, I was like, there's too many people here.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: I guess to go. I have a dog to take
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: care of. Yeah, and that's how you like, That's how
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: you were introduced to me, right, because I barely remember
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: because you walked in. I do remember you walking in
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: because we were on the back porch, yes, and I
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: was trying to make my escape. And I had already
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: been there because I am that person who comes early
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: and leaves early. And you know what, Caroline is the
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: one that taught me that one.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Hey, if it works for you, it works for your time.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: And y'all had come because y'all where y'all been?
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: You and Sarah, Listen, this is completely true. I was
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: walking back from our office at the time, which is
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: not a far walk from where I live. Our mutual
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: friend Sarah pulled up next to me in a car
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: and said get in, and I did, and that's how
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I ended up there.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: No idea they came in. The party was already happening,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: and it got loud, and I was like, I gotta
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: go peace out. I gotta go see my dog, which
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: is what you remember from me, Is that correct? And then,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: because I had met Sarah through Carolina as well, I
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: was bartending with a beer company here, a local beer
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: brewery here in Atlanta, and y'all, I just popped up
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: and we kind of reminisced about the fact that we
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: were all there on Father's Day, lamenting together and all
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: of the Bad Father tropes and or deaths or things,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: a lot of tragedy. We really really bonded over trauma
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: and tragedy. And we y'all did the hookup where y'all
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: went and did some touring and I'm like, ah, and
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: he's cool, okay, cool, Why why don't you come hung
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: out with me? And then I had an infamous cheese
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: and wine party because I loved having those. This is
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: all pre pandemic. I think we met in twenty eighteen.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was twenty eighteen.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: I think you and my partner came around the same time. Yeah, yeah,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: so y'all are like okay, And then at that infamous party,
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: is no, because we had already hung out before when
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: it was announced that you were going to be on
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: the show with Bridget.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, oh that's right, we did.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: We hung out. Yeah, we hung out a victory. I'm
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: giving you all the lowdown. We were hung out at
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: our local restaurant here. Bridget was here in town, so
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: I got to meet her. Bridget kind of forgot that
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: and we all hung out and it was all a
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: beautiful moment. And then you and I kept up with
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: the friendship for a while. I can't remember all the
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: in betweens, but I was like, yeah, I like this girl.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: We're gonna hang We're gonna be friends. We went to
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: a few festivals here and there.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: We did karaoke time.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: We did karaoke. Uh. I a lot of karaoke since then,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: but we did do karaoke in one of the infamous
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: bars here away a little outside of Atlanta. You'd never been.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Was that your first time? Really?
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: That was my first time?
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: I love it. I think a friend also a friend
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: of mine, Dominique was her first time too, and she
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: loved it. I was like, this is amazing, Let's do
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: this. This is when I actually did things, y'all. I stayed
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: out past twelve and then as our friendship grew and
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: that infamous cheese party night came through, you and I
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: sat down and talked about the future of the show.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Me feeling really really restless with the whole me Too movement,
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: and people were really upset already as it goes about
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: the word trigger warning, and that opened up into such
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: a conversation that was maybe your therapist a little bit
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: as well. I feel like you need more therapy, more
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: than I can offer. Also, let's do a show. I
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: will say not to say I tricked you, but this
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: wasn't part to be like I need to get this
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: girl in therapy.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: And you did you listen to our miniseries we did
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: on Trauma.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: We did mainly because I'm like, girl, you've been through
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: some things and you're not acknowledging how significant these things are.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: We need to take a moment.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: The cheese and wine brings it out of me sometimes well.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: And I was like, because this is also a part
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: of my problem. And we're going to talk about this
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: a little bit as we talk about the layers of
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: friendship and types of friendships there are and women in
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: friendship in general. But like, I cannot do shallow conversations
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: that I am going to hone in, ask you a question,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: find the things that like obviously are things that are
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: like pretty deep to you, and then we're gonna talk
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can verify that one thousand percent.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: And then I feel like there are moments and I'm
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: like I need to back off. So for me to
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: back off of me's like we can't talk at all
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: because my mind cannot let that go. And if I
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: am having that conversation with you, if I'm having an
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: in depth conversation, that means I'm investing in you, and
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: that that means that there's something in this relationship that
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: makes me think that we need to be friends.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: I've always appreciated that about you. I don't think that's
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: like not great, not no, No. I think that, at
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: least in my experience that I include myself in this.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: I sometimes shy away from tougher topics that because I'm like,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I can say the right thing
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: or I don't know if you want to talk about this,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: or but I appreciate that you're a genuinely curious person
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: if it's somebody that you do want to invest in,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: or you're you're interested in learning more about.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I say something that I can't let go of. It's
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: because also as a thinker on this level of like,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: if you give me something and then it doesn't make
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: complete sense, I have to unravel it. We're gonna have
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: to go through this because I'm like, wait, no, wait,
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: what type of And I can't lingering And that's gonna
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: keep me up at night.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: That's so, Yeah, that's interesting.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna need to know, and I'm gonna come back
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: later and ask you.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she does follow ups, listeners.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: I to follow ups. But with all of that, this
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: is the beginning. This is the beginning of our friendship.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: And you being open and accepting of that really developed
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: into this level learning this. We've talked about this many times.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: I'm not a podcaster, I'm not a writer. I am
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: not an editor. This is not what I was trained
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: to be. What I'm trained to be is the thinker
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: is a questioner is a person who comes and asks
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: the deep questions and we work through things and we
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: don't necessarily find a solution, but we find a moment
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: of like stability. Like that's what I like to do.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: So when I don't get that, I get a little anxious.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: But with that, I also really hone in on like
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: injustices and I want to talk about it to try
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: to unravel at least the reasons and if there's not reasons,
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: at least what we can do to protect ourselves to
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: a certain extent. So this is who I am because
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: you've allowed me to do that. This has felt like
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: an actual like career instead of just a job. So
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: thank you for that.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: And I think also like we do so well in
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: like what're pretty opposites in so.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Many ways in a lot of ways.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but at the same have we let each other
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: be those opposites that helps us come together, like it
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: fulfills the entire picture.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and being supportive and open to okay you
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: want to check about that or okay, well yeah, what
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: should we do next? I think that is really important
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: and it's good to have different viewpoints. I think, just
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: even outside of a job or our career with your
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: friend group.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. I think we traveled really well with that.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: We've done many a travels.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, we have, and we've done well. We've been You're
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: very You're very clear about like I need my rest,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: I'm leaving and I'll very like have fun.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna do my own thing like this is. That's
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: the glory of it all, Like we don't need to
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: be attached. But also I'm gonna support this, and we're
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: gonna go to this these things you want to see,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: all the things of lest of us. I'm gonna see
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: four of those things, do the rest, and I will
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: happily And I'm like, yes, okay, but yeah, so with that,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: that is our friendship in a summary. Yeah, there's so
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: much more obviously, and the way we get to teach
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: each other and the way we get to grow with
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: each other, and just talking about like what this podcast
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: has become and how we made it ours and some
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: people love it, some people hate it. We're okay with that.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: One of the things that we would do with this
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: podcast is talk on a broader subject because we find
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: it interesting and when we look at it from an
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: intersectional ideal, which is so important and I hope doesn't
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: go away. I feel like even with like the atmosphere
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: that is today, like we talked about some of the
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: things that we are fearful of, like this is our careers,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: this is if something were to happen, if someone were
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: to get mad at us, if someone thinks that, you know,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: our opinions mean that it's a violation of something somehow
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: that it could go away if the right group or
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: you know, the wrong group. I feel like they have
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: a new agenda. But with that, we find that a
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: privilege to be able to have a conversation about this
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: and talk about things like women in friendship, and that's
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: kind of what we're doing. And you know, as a reminder,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: I feel like we haven't said this in a while
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: when we say women, woman, all women, Yes, okay, So
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: don't think this is all about just binary gender. We're
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: not about that life. We are talking about intersectionalism and
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: being on a spectrum in many ways, and gender is
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: one of those things. So when we say women, were
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: saying all women, So go go with that. How you
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: watch When we were researching one of the things, I
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: was like, let's just get a basics about friendship. So
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: what are we talking about when we talk about friendships,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: and one of the first things that popped up is
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: from our friends. Literally that one of the first people
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: who were made Sminty Sminty Molly Edmonds had written this
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: article with another co author for How Stuff Works about friendships,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: and I was like, well, of course we're gonna have
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: to use this because it's already there for us. And
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: they talk of the complexity of friendships in general. So
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: as simple as that word may be, because I feel
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: like people just automatically assume it's a relationship platonic, non blown,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: you know, romantic, even it is complex about how to
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: maintain and even keep them and why they're important for everyone.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: So in their article they interview psychologists doctor Susanne Diggs White,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: who told them this. She says, true friendships are hallmarked
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: by each member's desire to engage with the other. It's
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: about mutual interest in one another's experience and thoughts, as
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: well as a sense of belongingness and connection. Friendships require
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: reciprocity of admiration, respect, trust, and emotional and instrumental support.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: I think that's such a great definition because we don't
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: really get into time the conversation about toxic friendships. Yeah,
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: because what we would say toxic friendships would be the
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: opposite of all of that.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would like to come back and do a
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: deeper dive into that though, because I was thinking about that.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: This research actually brought out a lot for me, and
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: I was telling Samantha, I've reached out to friends that
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: I haven't reached out to in a while because of it.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: But one of the things I would love to come
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: back and do is the dynamics of a friendship, the
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: kind of power dynamics.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: We've done an episode about breaking up with friends, right,
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: we have done that.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of I just want to talk about like,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: because I feel like even in a pretty solid friend group,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: there are sometimes still the most sort of like.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Hierarchies.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, main girl level, not necessarily mean girl, but like
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Know, well, I mean, like with I don't Regina George's
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: character being the leader of her friend group, yeah type
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: of thing. Yeah, I feel like there's a connection sometimes
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: where they're the central point.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And just like we are going to talk
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: about this, I haven't known about this in that line,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: but kind of that like idea because a lot of
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: times the friendship is they change as you go through life,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: and it can feel especially for someone like me, who
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna have kids, so I'm not gonna get married,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I'm not going through a lot of those like touchstones.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: It can kind of feel like in some instances, I
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: don't have a lot of the power in that case,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: but in other instances, I feel like I kind of
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: do so right, it's just interesting. It's just something I've
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: been thinking about.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: So I would think you are the leader and the
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: powerful one when it comes to when we go to
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Dragon Con or when we go to events like Bess,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: if I go to Disney World with you, you were
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: in charge. You are the woman in charge. But like
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: setting up dates with people who are getting married or
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: have children, they are the ones that have to be like, yeah, I'm.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Free these times.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I see what you're saying. I see what
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: I see what you're saying.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems interesting, but.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: We will come back and we do address a little bit,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: but not completely. You're right, and yeah, and back to
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: that article. They go even deeper, classifying specific types of friendships,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: so not necessarily diameodamics, but types including acquaintances, friends, close friends,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: and best friends. So they kind of have this like
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: pyramid and this is where it goes from the bottom up.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: And though I would have thought close friends and best
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: friends were pretty much the same, but the difference lies
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: in the depth of best friend marker type of thing
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: where best friends don't even need to speak to each
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: other and can pick up where they left off. Like
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I've all maybe this is my childhood ideal, but like
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: the best friend is like you talked to them every
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: day and you must call on the phone in any
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: of the events. But you know that's not necessarily true.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: And I will say I feel like that's the only
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: type of friendships I have because I am an introvert.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: So you might not hear from me for weeks or
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: two weeks or four weeks or six months, but when
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: we come back, we talk as we've never stopped talking.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a lot of friends like that, and
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I think that's a It makes sense because people have
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: their own lives, they're doing their own things. You're doing
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: your own thing, and it's really nice when you get
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: to see each other and it just feels like you're
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: picking up right back where you're left off.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: Right and it is lovely and then for women there
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: seems to be very specifics that honestly makes sense to me,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Like women look for emotional bond and support, so a
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: little bit different on how what they classify what they
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: need in a relationship and a friendship, so they need
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: that death that level of relationships. For me, I do
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: that too, like if I need it's rare that I'm
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: going to ever tell you I need something, But if
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: I do, that means if you let me down, it's
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: hard to come back from that for me, Like you
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: might not ruin it, and I'll always be there for you,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: but in the back of my head, I'll know, ah, yeah,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: they didn't pick up on them. And then like that
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: equal reciprocity, the give and take that is similar to yours.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: That took me a long time to learn and I
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: didn't realize how important that was until after college.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and part of that too is like I
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: know we've talked about this and it's different between some
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: of my other friends, but there can be this feeling
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: of you did this for me, x y Z, I
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: have to do the same for you, which is not
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: always true, Like sometimes that it's the x y Z
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: same for you, doesn't have to be the exact same thing.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: It can be something that means more to them than like, say,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: if I have a lot of friends who love to
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: give gifts but don't necessarily love getting them, but I
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: can find a way to, like, I know what they like,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: and I can make something that is reciprocal but not
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: the exact same right, right, But it's kind of that
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Karen attention that matters. It's like, I'm giving you the
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: same time and Karen attention right that you give me.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I think I think one of the big things,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: like in college, I would be there. I would spend
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: money on people, I would go out for people. If
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: they told me they needed this, I'd be there for people.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Like all of these things help you move, help you
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: do these things. And then I realized they didn't do
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: the same for me. They obviously don't hold me in
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: the same regard. Hmmmmmm. And it's like at this point
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: I want the friends that I know has my back
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: as much as I have theirs. And life's too short.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: We don't all have to be friends, yes, and we
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: can let this go, and I will let that go.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: I've gotten really good at letting go. As of the
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: last ten years, I'm like, yeah, I'm good, no, thank you.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's a good or bad thing, I don't know.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Also a mutual self disclosure or the more that you
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: share and you discover about each other, you trust each
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: other more, you know, not saying it's completely about gossip,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: because not gossip is not wonderful all the time, but
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: like there's this level of trust of like, oh you
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: think that's okay, kind of like the inside joke and
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: understanding your sense of humor, like, oh, I can trust
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: you in this. Being racist is not the thing that
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I'm not talking about that if you're racist and you're
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: being racist with your racist friends, you know that you're
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: not gonna be my friend. But this level of like
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: understanding and valuing each other or getting advice from each other,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: being able to like really know that you can trust
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: one another. And again, like you give just as much
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: as I give. I'm not giving you all my secrets
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: and you're not giving m all right, you're telling me things,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: tell me about your life. Maybe that's what maybe that's
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: what it is about me, and they get to know you,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: like I need to know, I need to know who
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: you are. Moving back and this is something author Danielle
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Bayard Jackson's base on in her book as well as
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: CNN when it comes to like female friends in general,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: so she says this people are most so women need
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: to know that there is trust and support and long
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: lasting friendships and something that happens naturally, so inable to
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: like actually be able to have a true and long
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: lasting relationship. It's not forcing you to divult secrets. This
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: is not the Masons. We're not making you write down
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: yere secrets and promises. Which, by the way, I just
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: went down a rabbit hole about Masons. I wondered if
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: they were part of the white nationally this in terms
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: of our Christians don't like Mason's side note, sorry, but like,
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: but the fact that we it does happen naturally. It
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: comes in a conversation, whether it's like you bonding over
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: the fact that your dad's dead. I'm so sorry, that's
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: not funny, but it's true.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Hey, it's true.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: It's true. My dad is not dead. Just so you know.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: But we were having a moment where like us not
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: having not want to spend time with our fathers because
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: of disagreements and or death, did have a moment of like,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: let's have this conversation and I know, like people who
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: have lost people in their lives and have been able
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: to heal a little bit. And he says, if we'll
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: talk about like Dead Dad Club, Like I've heard that
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: as a reference in Dead Mom Club. Like all of
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: these things have been something that people have bonded over.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: It kind of just natural and in the friendship may
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: form from that. I know for me, some of the
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: people that I worked with, including you any but like
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: when I was in social work going through really hard times,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: we bonded over that. We bonded over the fact that
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: was really bad and our mental health were not good.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: It's dark, but it helps you know. And again, men
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: apparently are a bit different. They're less talkative. It's not
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: about emotional support. It's more about activity with their counterparts.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: But again with some opposite sex though, So when a
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: man is friends with women or whatever whatnot, they're more
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: likely to share their feelings and more likely than't have
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: that emotional support that they need. That might be an
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: important thing because they don't feel like they can say
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: it to other men, but they can talk about it
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: with other women.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to say, I feel like this has
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: been my experience. In a lot of cases.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: We do.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to be your friend and listen to you,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: but sometimes I'm like, I really wish you didn't feel
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: like we don't know each other that well, yeah, I
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: wish there was someone else that.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: And then it gets messy when you start having a partner,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Like if you have a romantic partner and you're you're
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: always that emotional support, which we're kind of going to
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: talk to you about a little bit, but like that's
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: gets messy and you know you can't be that for
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: that person anymore. So that's why the change in friendship
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: goes away. And that's the question about like can men
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: and women be friends, which we are going to get
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: into in a bit. And so for some more breakdowns
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: of stage and types of friendships. Social science libreate techs
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: actually has some different types of stages for us about
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: in friendship. Specifically, one of them is roll delimited interaction.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: So you think that's the first stage. You're in the
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: same class or you work together, so it's an acquaintance
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: now and you kind of have this now common ground
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: that you are in the same situation, and you may
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: or may not take that outside of the space maybe
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: and you never talk about anything outside of that. I
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: have zoomba friends like this as we talk about the
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: immediate you know, oh, we had danced together, how are
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: you the superficial conversations that I'm like, I'm good with this.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: You could update me while we're here. The next one
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: is the friendly relation. So you're still work involved, but
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: maybe you are having a deeper conversation there, or you're
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: purposely having more conversation and reaching, like finding each other
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: out in that class at work to find out how
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: something happened or whatever whatnot, you're talking more about the project.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: This is kind of like my example. I don't know why,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: but Courtney and who's been on the show before, whom
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: I love, one of my coworkers from the Department of
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Juvenile Justice. She and I quickly became friends and she
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: is one of the most guarded people you'll ever meet.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: I am not as much, but she is definitely, And
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: we kind of really came together because we were out
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: in the field together, had to be trained. The way
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: our job worked at the time was we traveled all
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: over the state of Georgia doing different kinds of reviews
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: and had to go through inspection with different places, and
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: we were being trained, and she and I decided to
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: go to lunch together because we had to, Like there
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: was really like either we're gonna start or we go
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: get lunch. And we were in a small town and
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: both of us were people of color. We're like, we're
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: not going in here by ourselves, what the hell? And
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: we bonded over that. So it was kind of like that, okay,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: friendly relations stepping a little bit outside of getting to
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: know maybe we can be friends. That moves towards friendships
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: so well you actually do take things out. So she
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: and I started kind of like, hey, let's go meet
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: up here. Hey, let's go do this after the fact,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: let's go to this, And we started talking more and
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: more like all right, I like you, we got we
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: got things in common. That goes into the Nacian friendship,
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: which start developing new norms, so like you do do things,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: you do do traditions together, you do things outside of this.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: It's not about work anymore. You have friendships outside of work.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Now now you get to be looping and then you
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: have stabilized friendships, which is the strengthening part, like you
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: really know each other, you get to know your friend's friends.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: You're really secure about that you're watering and growing this friendship.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: I have so many metaphors apparently for friendship any but like, yeah,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: I get to meet your people and you get to
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: meet my people, and maybe our people can all be friends,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: and there's no insecurity of be like I'm going to
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: be left out. I don't know what's going on. I
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: don't know what they're talking about. Like you can be
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: friends and maybe that can be friends, which makes our
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: friendship grow even stronger. Yeah, no, okay, And then sometimes
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: there comes the after, because it can be an after
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: an ending, and that's the waning of friendships here less
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: we have less impact on relationships towards an end or
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: just just less in general, Like you become kind of
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: go back to being an acquaintance. I'll tell you happy birthday,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: I'll see how you're doing every now and again. And
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: there are several reasons for this. It includes physical distance,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: no more common interests or that common interest is kind
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: of gone or no longer relevant, and even conflicts which
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like the political atmosphere has really caused a
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: lot of indifferendships yep, or on that later. Yeah, They
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: also reported that so these things can be gendered, so
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: they write this interestingly. Females and males in the study
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: did report differences in the likelihood that these five reasons
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: led to deterioration. Females reported that conflict was a greater
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: reason for friendship deterioration than males, and males reporting not
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: having many common interests was a greater reason for friendships
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: deterioration than females. I feel like men are more forgiving
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: in that route.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: It could be that. I wonder if it's also though
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: they don't talk as much about true things that matter. Well,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say that, but like maybe women
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: are having those like I'm sharing secrets with you, are right,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: like my life and myself and all this, and so
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: it hurts more when you have that conflict.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, you're right, because it says women make
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: friends based on emotional, emotional and support, as are men.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Men made friends made of like activity. So those were
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: different for sure. So that means that, yeah, that would
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: be if you're not activity is no longer aligned. Would
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: you be friends if that's the main reason that you
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: be friends. So you know, yeah, that's common sense that
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: I didn't put together till just now, thank you for that.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Again, collaboration coming together.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: And somewhere along the lines, I also wanted to talk
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: about like the best friends forever type of conversation. Yeah,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: but as in most things, sometimes friendships do come to
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: an end. And we often see this with the childhood
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: friendships that don't last into adulthood and some of the
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: things that happen specifically, and this is from Highland Center
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: for Healing dot com who talks about friendships. A lot
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: of therapeut peutic sites were like, hey, let me help
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: you through this friendship breakup. But they say, this is
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: some of the reasons that this happens. One maybe shifting priorities,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: so as you grow older, whether it's your interests. So
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: like I had friends who were really in the tennis.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Guess who was not me. I was a drama nerd
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: and so you know, and with that also I had
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: to get a job, and they kept doing activities. They
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: were able to bond more than myself because I was
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: doing a completely different activity. So and money I was
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: important because I needed a gar No one was buying
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: me a car. Geography, Man, this does hurt a little bit,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: it does. It hurts my feelings. Why'd you have to move.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Yep?
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, uh then changing social circles again, that's that whole level.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Like and not that say that people are popular verses,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: but like we had definitely people who are friends with
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: went into band and band became their life. In the
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: drama like like when things happened things shift, was that
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: you any was banned your life?
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: It's no, but it just makes me laugh. I know
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: we've talked about this before, but in my experience, band
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: in my school was like the thing people made fun of.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: And I've learned from you it was like the thing.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: So like previously, yes, previously people would could be made
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: fun of, but like they were such a big entourage
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: of band people that they outdid all the other groups,
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: so there was no bullying that.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, it's just every time I hear you talk about it,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: I'm like, that was not my experience.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: But ye, well, and our people were like you know,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: you know, like even my niece was bend leader. That
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: was a big deal. Oh yeah, and she they they
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: got led to, you know, doing the terrades in New
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: York because they won championships upon championships when that's the
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: only championships that occur in your school. You're not going
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: to be low in the tone poll.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: That's true, Like I'm just saying it. And then there's
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: connections just change. Your connections are no longer what it
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: is it used to be, but no longer is tech
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: could actually be a reason that you lose connections, that
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: you lose friendships. I know you would think more, but
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: whether it's like things that you see, things that you
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: post and I've seen this and it has made me
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: lose friends.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, oh yeah, and we also are going to talk
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: about that more. But it is it's a double edged sword,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: the technology part, because it's it allows you to keep
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: in touch more with people, even who are close to you,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: but especially the people who are far But also it
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: does allow you to see more than maybe you might
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: have and you're like, okay, no, I don't okay.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: I see what you liked that was not cute?
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Never mind all right.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: And then there's also like just self awareness and growth.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: You realize you're two separate people and this is very
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: different and what you like versus what they like it
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: is no longer it is what it is that's happened
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: to feel like outside of college right outside of college.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: I realized, Mmmm, nah, I think this was just because
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: we were at Uga together or whatever college you were
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: it together. And then of course live transitions and all
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: life sucks. We're just good and it changes friendships. Yes,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: it does, you know, but with all of that, because
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: I feel like as child you could lose friends. It
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: is still painful, but it were more likely to make
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: friends than adulthood. But is there actually a difference between
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: making friends as an adult versus as children?
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Any Yes, there is, and we will go through some
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: of it relates to what you were just talking about.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: This has been the subject of a lot of conversation
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: recent years, especially around the difficulty of making and keeping
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: friendships as an adult, especially close friendships. Because you and
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: I talked about this, I'm actually really good at making friends,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: not necessarily close friends, but I can make a friend.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I also found a really snarky reddit so I've read
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: it that was like, it's not hard. Why are we
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: talking about it? I know. I was like, Okay, do
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: you have friends? Because I will question Yeah, me too.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: There are a lot of reasons for why it is
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: harder as an adult to make friends. For one, there
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: are a lot more responsibilities demanding your time. For most adults,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: a job, maybe a spouse, maybe kids, maybe an ailing
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: family member, bills to pay, different schedules to balance my goodness,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: And honestly, people might just be tired. And friendships do
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: take time and intent, and if you don't have that
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: time and intent, it's just not going to last or
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: not going to be very serious or close friendship. And yeah,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: we do as we get older, a lot of us
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: do intentionally cut down unintentionally or intentionally cut down on
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: our number of close friends. We categorize friendships into passive
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: which would be like I see you at the office
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: and that's it. You're a pleasant person, but we're not
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: going beyond that, versus active friendships with there are the
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: ones that you are working to maintain. Author mel Robbins
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: has spoken extensively about the difficulty of making and keeping
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: new friends as an adult and even as a three
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: pillar theory as to why, and she explains that around
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: twenty we go through a pretty big life transition. Previously
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: we were generally surrounded by people our age doing similar
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: things with similar schedules. After that, things can really shift.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: People move away, they change priorities, change someone you once
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: had so much in common with as a kid, is
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: now someone you might struggle to relate to because your
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: experiences are so different and perhaps your values too. It
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: can be very sad and painful. I did lose a
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: lot of friends as a kid, and then yep, when
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: I went to college. Yeah, and I remember just stopping
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: because you have that realization of, like, I'm probably never
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: going to see this person again. And we were so close.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: When I was in China, I had this really close
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: friend group, and I just we're not I'll try, but
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: we're it's not gonna be this again. It's not going
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: to be this again. We're going our separate rays and
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: you recognize it. That's part of life, but it is
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: sad part of life.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. I remember in like sixth grade. By
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: this point I had lost four of my best friends,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: like and they were truly my best friends. And one
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: of them was really traumatic fashion and the friend that
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: I had all the way through high school and college
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: and almost in adulthood for the most part, and then
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: things fail apart. I made her promise that she wouldn't
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: leave me because it was soum and I just bald.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: I just remember that moment like, please tell me if
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: you're going to be my friend, promise me you're not
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: gonna leave me. She kept that promise. Things fell apart later,
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: but you know, for this remainder of school, we were great.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it does hurt. It's really painful. But okay.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: So what are the three pillars that Robin's describe for
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: making keeping friends as an adult. It's kind of what
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: you were talking about, Samantha. Proximity, timing, and energy. When
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: it comes to proximity, she cites research that concluded it
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: takes fifty hours to become a casual frint and two
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: hundred hours to become a close friend. If you aren't
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: physically close to each other, it's hard to put in
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: that amount of time. On top of that, being physically
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: close to people can be critical to making new friends.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: So like when you're switching jobs, or you're moving, or
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: you're starting a new class, that can be really important.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Timing involves priorities and schedules. If those don't align, that
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: timing might not work out for that friendship. Energy has
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: to do with how you vibe with somewhat. It's not
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: necessarily I'm tired, I don't have energy It's kind of like,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: is your energy matching mine? Is it a supportive, nurturing friendship.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Robin's also says that friendships can change and go quiet
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: and then come back. I certainly have a lot of
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: friends like this, so that makes complete sense me. In
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Robin's words, let them live their lives, let them change,
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: let them meet new friends, let them not invite you,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: let them go quiet, and let them come back. Sometimes
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: people are just in different parts of their life and
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: hopefully you kind of reconnect later. So then how do
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: we make friends? If it's something you want, Robbins advises,
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: you do it intentionally, taking action instead of waiting for
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: it to happen. A lot of people are kind of like,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: almost like in a romantic sense, all when I meet
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: the right person, I'll know. But Robin's is like, no,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: you've got to get out there and intentionally cultivate a friendship,
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: being consistent, finding people on the same general stage of
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: life or with similar interests. And that's what I used
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: to tell people is I don't know how great of
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: advice this is, but finds it like a similar like
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: if you are into an activity, go do a class
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: of that activity at the very least you'll meet people
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: who are you share that with.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: You know, this is also part of like horror movies too.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: Oh do what do you think? I don't know.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: That's I had to put that in here somewhere. Okay,
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: keep going.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, I'm also a note. We're not really going to
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: go into this, but social anxiety can absolutely impact everything
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: we're talking about. So I'm making your face. Yeah, that
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: advice of like go out and take a class for
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: not everybody that is going to be an easy thing
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: that they can do.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: I feel like the older you get, the harder it
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: gets mm hmmm, because it feels like there's some of
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: those activities that you love. Your age may seem like
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: you shouldn't be doing this.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, you know, I think about that all the time.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: I think that that was Jack and Conn. I'm like,
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: should I still be cousplaying as a character. I don't know.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: There's a hip hop class that I was like, oh,
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: it's for beginners, just for adults of them, Like, but
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: all these kids, they all look like twenties, and they'll
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: be like this old woman coming in. They're gonna if
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: they think I'm good, I'm gonna be the token old
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: person that they highlight to be like, see, she can
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: do it, so can you, you know, like extra special
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: treatment because you're old. I'm Micha Well damn, yeah, I
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: know what you're talking about as a loss of fear.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I get you don't get to that. Uh.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: I love all that because yes, like there's so much
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: to the science, because it's not been until recently that
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: they've actually decided they wanted to study friendship. And I
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: think it may have something to do with like the
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: conversation about loneliness epidemic, which we're going to talk very
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: slightly about later, but like people understanding it is hard
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: and it should be acknowledged that not everyone can do this,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: not being friends with someone can do this, and whether
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: it's again like my own thing about like I need
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: depth if we don't have depth in our friendship and
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: also sense of humor, yes, but like both of those
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: things are very important for me to have a friendship
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: with you, Like you can you understand my sense of humor?
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Can I understand your sense of humor? Can you go
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: deep with me in like this conversation and be able
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: to like work through some really traumatic feels, whether it's
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: about the world, the country, or ourselves, but then also
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: come out with it like and joke about it.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Still. Yeah, and we didn't even get in to this.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: I think we've talked about it in previous episodes, but
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: there have been studies about the positive measurable health impacts
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: of friendship beneficial yees. So it is something that is
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: not frivolous. It is something that is really important and
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: does impact your health.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: It does mm hmm. It's like one of the things
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: that it does agree upon. And then we're going again
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: get into this bit about like the whole male loneliness
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: epidemic is it is actually killing men and not the
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: way you would think. It's not because you know, but
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: because of the loneliness, rather because they are so unwilling
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: to see that it needs to be a thing, that
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: friendship should be a thing. Ooh yeah, moving on, sorry,
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: but with that, speaking of men, can men and women
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: be friends? Annie, We've talked about this a few times.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: Ah, we talked about it in our when Harry met Sally.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Is that it?
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: And you know what that is one of the biggest
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: references for everyone's conversation in this topic. There, that is
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: the reference that people point to being like but they
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: can't y'all. Every single reference when we were looking at
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: this up was like the Harrie met Sally trope can
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: you be friends? And again there is that little like
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: we just talked about before, by that what men see
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: as value of friendship or how to make friends with
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: specific genders. That is a conversation and again that's a
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: patriarchy in itself and why we need to break that
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: down and misogyny and all these things. That's what's really
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: killing men. Hello, I said it out loud, But with
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: that in this conversation, like in society, can they be friends?
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Can this be true for adults because of course it's children, yes,
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: But also there's still this layer of like gendered sexualization
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: on specific like specific young girls that it's like, oh,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: is that your boyfriend? And they can't be friends? Like
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: they're being taught at like at a young age that
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: if you are with the opposite sex in any shape
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: or form, then that means that shirres your little boyfriend,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: not your friend, a little boyfriend. And then I love
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: the kids who are like, no, that's my friend, get
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: it together. Those are my favorite kids, by the way.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: But also like we have references like Mike Pence that
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: came up a couple of times about him saying that
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: he will never go uh to dinner alone or lunch
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: alone with a woman because that's disrespectful to his wife.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: To mama, he calls mama, which is mother, isn't it?
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Is it mother? I'm sorry, I was trying to make.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: It care.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Grandma's But yeah, that's that question of like can
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: they actually be friends? That's a few articles. It's like
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: Berkeley actually talks about this as i'd call an article
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: as well, talking about whether or not it can be
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: and that she in this article is from like the
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Los Angeles Tribunes, and a journalist wrote about her platonic
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: friendships with men she's known from childhood and what worked
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: and all of these things about how, yes, these are okay,
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't seem right, like having friends as a
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: child that are men or younger or I guess even
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: pre husband is okay, but after the fact it's not okay.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: And I I get that, and I don't get that.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: So there is this level as a person who has
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: been in a partnership for now seven years with assismel,
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: like there is that conversation of like, all right, I
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: don't want them to feel insecure? So how do I
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: make this happen? And things like iHeart. When I started working,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: I made friends with a lot of dudes because we
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: have like our producer was a dude, like all these things.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: But with that, it was on that same level that
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: she should be able to be friends with my partner.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: So I get this. There's just like moment of like,
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: But is that because the patriarchy has set up so
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: much that you have to be careful. I have to
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: be careful as a woman to not be accused of
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: that type of interest.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, we've talked about this before. I've
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: joked the friend made up a business card for me
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: that said she's not flirting, she's just nice. That is
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: another unfortunate thing of the patriarchy that kind of relates
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: to what we're talking about, where men have these conversations
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: with women they wouldn't have with men, and then they
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: think it's like, oh, she really gets me, which I might,
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean I'm romantically into you, right. But
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: I saw that too when I was running into a
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: lot of research about like once you get married, it
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: drops off the kind of friendship with someone of the
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: opposite sex drops off. And we've talked about this before.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: I've become extremely wary of this because I trusted, oh,
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: you're in a stable relationship, oh you're married, or whatever
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: it is, and then it turns out that was not
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: the safe zone I thought that it was. So it's
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: really frustrating because I would like to live in a
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: world where I have plenty of male friends that I think,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: you know, we're not that's not what's happening. But I've
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: become so weary because it's happened that I'm like, I'm
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: gonna I'm just gonna back off and let you instigate everything.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna instigate anything.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: And that is definitely a conversation because I'm like you
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: when I was single, I mean even now, like I,
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: I would think you're safe because you're in a relationship,
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: you're married. Why would you be interested in me? You
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: have a wonderful wife or you have a wonderful partner,
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: Like I don't understand, and then be shocked when things
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: would happen and be like what what is what is this?
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: What is this? Why is this the thing? And because
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: I was shocked because I was so unprepared and really
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: didn't think that was a possibility, Like I would be
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: flummox you know what I mean, and not respond the
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: way it should be, Like I should respond be like, well,
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: this is all and also like if you're friends with them,
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: And then also comes to the point like when I
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: was younger and friends with like we were all single,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: I had a good, like good mix of male and
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: female friends, like we all came together, women and men,
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: and when those men would start relationships, I had to
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: back off. It made me very sad, and not because
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: I didn't think that they trusted them, but because I
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: understood again, as we talked about like when it comes
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: to it seems men and women and men actually allow
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: for women to be a support system for them, as
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: in friends that you know, steps into a boundary of like, okay,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: are you having an emotional affair? How where are we
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: on this line?
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've definitely I have found myself regretting looking back
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: where I'm like, I think that was an emotional affair
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: and I feel horrible about it. I think realize that's
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: what was going on, right, And I've told you this before,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: this is like the silliest thing. But one time I
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: was like I'm asexual, as if that means I can't
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: do anything.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: That says you can't have an emotional affair. That probably
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: was the best way to have an affair with you,
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: not that you were doing that. I'm just saying, yeah,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: but all those things are so hard. But the thing is,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: it's also really big research. So the Economist wrote about
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: this about how important it is to having intergroup relationships.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: So it talks about the innergroup contact theory that the
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: more you are desensitized to that level of sexualization and
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: misogynic patriarchy, that you can have friends and it helps
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: you grow even better and also teaches you about things
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: like the patriarchy and why it's bad, and it helps
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: like decipher through your past codes that really had a
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: lot of biases when you start like, oh, oh, like
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: I see a lot of men who don't understand some
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: of these ideals until they have girlfriends or they have daughters,
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: or they have you know, like that type of level.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: But if you can go ahead and get that early
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: by having empathy and having someone you care about that
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: might be an underlying victim in some of these things,
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: it really does open up for an individual to learn
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: this kind of compassion that we are severely lacking as
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: a society, that this ideal that this contact really does
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: bring in a positive interaction and then also lessons the prejudice.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: So this is what it says. Specifically, the idea that
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: positive interactions between different groups can reduce the prejudice they
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: feel about one another. It has usually been applied to
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: ethnic or religious groups, may work for men and women.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: So they're talking specifically about like these inner groups that
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: if we have more of that, if we actually allow
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: for true friendship and we're not talking about sexual relationships
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: that we're talking about friendships, that really does help lessen
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: the prejudice that is oftentimes there, the sexism, the misogyny,
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: the abuse in general in understanding that when we have
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: compassion for that, that that really opens up so much
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: more so something that we desperately need is really being
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: stifled by the patriarchy and misogyny. That is overwhelming.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm sure a lot of listeners can relate.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of men in my life that
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: I have gone through this and continue to go through
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: this farm Like, no, what you're saying you really need
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: to learn or listen to me, or because you're not.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: What you're saying is not accurate. It does not reflect
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: the experience of women, and they have, to their credit,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: most of the men I'm talking about have grown.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: Understand M'm trying to understand. I think that's what we're
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: also seeing when it comes to like immigration stuff. Right now,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: more and more people us they're being affected.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: They're like, oh, yeah, this is the yeah, the find
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: out stage, but like understanding that had this been a thing,
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: had we been more open.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: And being with different groups of people and being in
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: different communities and seeing it from a different point of view,
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: what could happen in that inner group concept there? Man,
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's too late, but it's not. It's
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: not young kids. But can you be friends with an ex?
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: You know how feelings?
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Annie? I know you do?
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: I know you know I have feelings And it kind
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: of goes back and forth in this level. So are
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: you do you consider yourself still friends with your ex?
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: I consider myself an acquaintance with one and a friend
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: with one. The rest of them I never talked to.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: So okay, okay, so percentage wise, how many? What percentage
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: of Yeah? I want I need I need a specifics here.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, let me think, oh my gosh, this is complicated
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: because you know, I get asked on oopsie dates all
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: the time.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: No, so say X, we're literal relationship, like you have
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: the step relationship. Yes, not just an accidental one time
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: date okay, or four time date for you.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: Oh no, I think it's seven or eight to be
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: out of Oh that's my total. That's all of that,
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: two out of eight.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: Okay. So we're saying what twenty rate success rate of friendship?
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: I hold at like zero point one percent. But I
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: haven't had too many relationships Okay, so actually probably higher
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: percentage wise, to be fair, I feel like I had
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: to do my number and you're so no, because I'm not,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: like I've told you, like my like most serious relationship
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: is my current relationship. So yeah, but like the two before,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: so I've had three and I'm friends with one now ish,
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: I'm acquaintances with one ish mm hmm. Okay, so thirty
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: three percentage My percentage is higher. Math is fun, No,
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: it is not. So. This was a study that Rebecca
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: Griffith did and told Live Science essentially that said that
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: it's a very pervasive phenomenon the friendships and that sixty
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: percent of people remain friends after a romantic split, so
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: that's pretty high. Now I think we're paying to split.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: It may be more like yours, like they had a
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: moment and then they're like, never mind, but they weren't
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: actually in a relationship, while twenty two percent actually are
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: still friends with their partners. Now, I have seen more
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: trends of like parents who are having to co parent,
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: trying to learn to be friends, and having to be
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: friends whether they wanted to or not. There's a few
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: reasons why they did this, and again that's one of
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: those reasons. Others it does say that they still want
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: to have sex with them, so they remain friends, which
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: I feel like is a disaster.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: Abe.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: I'm just you know, odd. Some of it is because
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: of mutual friendships. They don't want to lose friends, so
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: they have to kind of remain in that circle together,
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: which is super awkward. Which is why don't like my
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: friends dating each other. I need that to be noted.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: I get very upset about this, especially if I'm no,
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: it's not gonna go anywhere. I'm like why mm hmm.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: But then also they talk about like again like pets
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: pets is a new thing because they like it's kind
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: of like children. They're not at all not I'm not
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: equating that the same thing, but I'm just saying, like
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: the love and wanting to care and getting attached to
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: the pets, that's another big reason. And I get it.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely, I've read I've read more and more
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: about that too.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so like it's kind of there's a lot
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: of reasons why you should be Again, I go back
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: to the realm of like you need to go away.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: I need you to be on the island of X's.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: I don't need to see you. I don't care about
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: what you're doing. Congratulations on your fourth kid and fifth
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: shoe pairing, couple of shoes whatever. I don't want to know.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: So that's how I land on this. But again, like
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: if having children, having a pet, even I feel like
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: it is like there's gonna be a if you truly
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: had a good bond, Like if it's a whole other
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: traumatic reason, cut them out, do it, get that restraining order,
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: whatever you need to do. Boo. I did see a
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: few things where the black community talk about their friendship
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: dynamic versus their friendship with people outside of the black community,
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: and I like there's definitely a lot of questions in conversations.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: I saw a whole thing on TikTok about the Asian
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: American community, talking about if you're not from that specific
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: area and try to make friends with them, you're not
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: going to be welcome. If there's any Bay Area Asian
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: people who want to tell me about those, talk to me,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: you can. But that was one of the biggest things
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: that I have actually seen where in the Asian community.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: Because I'm adopted, I am not welcome, and they wouldn't
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: say that to me, but there are obvious looks of oh, oh,
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: oh oh, that level of tone that I'm like, I'm
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: very well, I guess I can't be friends with you anyway.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: But there definitely is a conversation about the differences and
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: the changes, and unfortunately it is what it is. There's
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: a decrease in diverse friends groups because of the administration
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: and the times that we are living in, and a
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: lot of reasons come out to play. They talk about
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: distrust in the white communities. We talk about white feminist women.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: I know it's not y'all. I know it's not like
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: most of our listeners, but even with that level of like,
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: they might not understand they might not see it for themselves,
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: but the amount of unlearning that has happened. And I
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: say that for myself living in white culture, like I
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: have to do, I had to do a lot of unlearning,
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: Like you can see it from our first book club
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: where we did White Fragility, and I have many regrets,
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: but because it was recommended, like I go on like
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: the defensive immediately, I was like, but my therapist, who
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: was black, she's the one that recommended to me. But
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: she did it because we needed to ease in, Like
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: I can guarantee she's like, y'all aren't ready to hear
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: the absolute truth, so you need to be eased in
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: by someone who's gonna hold your hand. And that's kind
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: of that level of like, oh right, and the unlearning
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: is a lifetime of things that we have to unlearn
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: when we're not like a part of a culture. And
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: because of that, like we see that there's a level
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: of distrust because a lot of people don't want to
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: admit and it took us a minute to figure out,
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, that's that's not necessarily the best because I'm
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: still kind of like obviously I'm still feel like, oh,
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: but but it's true, and so there's just a level
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: of like distrust. I will say I have told many
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: people I am more scared of white men than I
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: have any other group of people's because there's so much
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: context and kind of take, especially today, especially today in
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: the State of Georgia, that happens that it's like, all right,
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: once upon a time you could have told me everything's
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: a melting pot, but it's not. And we don't like
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: that term either, But you know, at least that had
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: a little more understanding than when we are today. Then again,
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: also that microaggression that continues today, that continues about whether
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: or not the people are mad about Asian stuff in general,
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: the whole thing that happened with COVID, the like microaggressions,
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: that level that happened with the black community, DEI conversations
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: that are happening today, like celebrating the end of DEI
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: not understanding that diversity, equity and inclusion means everyone like
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: that level like understanding it is like ugh, okay, and
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: because of an Asian dude coming after like affirmative action,
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: there's a distrust of that, so like it's absolutely understandable.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: And then also this conversation about childhood and how that
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: it is taught. Obviously, I feel like these are obvious thoughts,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: but we don't really think on it. We don't really
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: talk about it scientifically, and there's bigger conversations in what
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: that actually means and what that actually looks like. So
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: on a twenty sixteen NYU study, it shows that teachers
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: play a big part in this. And we know there's
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: a lot of QC conversations about how teachers are so
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: it's such an influence and they do so much, but
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: they really really do impact a lot of what the
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: culture is going through today. And it can also discourage
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: young children in making friends outside of their specific group
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: ethnicity like that when you're kids, you don't know, and
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: we've seen many mania moments where children don't know they
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: are taught that this could be wrong for some un
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: real reason, like not realistic reasons. So here's the actual
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: quote says. Although research shows that children with greater access
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: to diverse peers are more likely to form inter racial friendships,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: I findings suggest that access to diversity alone is not
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: sufficient for fostering these friendships, and teachers may play a role.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: Studies show that most childhood friendships are formed in classrooms,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: but children tend to form friendships with others of their
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: own race or ethnicity, with interracial friendships decreasing across ages
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: and grades. Yet for nearly half a century, educators and
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: scholars have argued that friendships across race have social and
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: emotional and academic benefits. And of course we're not saying
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: that all teachers are being divisive on purpose, or that
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: they're all encouraging segregation in friendships, but it isn't surprising
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: to note that teachers do hold a lot of influence.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: And if there is a prejudice within teachers, or they
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: show different treatment based on race or socioeconomic status, then
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: it wouldn't be hard to see that that would influence
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: children they are supposed to be educating, even like whether
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: it's making fun of a name, refusing to say a
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: name out loud, refusing to say a name correctly, that
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: really does influence children to another child, And I don't
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: think we think on that enough and how severe those
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: types of microaggression can be when it comes to the
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: environment you're creating in your classroom. Again, this is not
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: all teachers, but this is also why when you have
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: an amazing teacher. It can change, It can change your
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: perception of so many things that you're like, wow, okay,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: you made this where it made it easy for me
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: to have friends without feeling like my otherness is going
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: to get in the way, or that there is an
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: otherness to get in the way, you know. So that
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: there's so much to that point and to that level.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: And I will say that I my kindergarten teacher. I
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: came in not knowing English. I can't say that I
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: have any memory of her denigrating me or making fun
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: of me at any point, but I think I do.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: But what I do have memories of her celebrating the
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: things that I was doing, you know what I mean,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: So like that did not make me feel shamed necessarily
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: for being there. Instead, I felt like, Okay, I'm learning,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: and I learned very quickly to acclimate in language and
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: itself because for six months I was not speaking English.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: So fuck for me to come in and my mom
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: specifically requested this teacher. I'm sure I frustrated the hell
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: out of her because I don't think I was her favorite.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong, but she really she never did
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: anything to me or ostracized me from the other people
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: being my friend a That could be a level fetishism
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: in that, but that's a whole different conversation. But I
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: never did not like I could make friends, So that
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: was an amazing thing, as well as the fact that
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: I don't have any memories of being shamed, and those
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: are things that would haunt me for sure, And at
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: never point did I feel like that I couldn't, you know,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: be another person. Did I want to be white? Of
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: course that came with my own insecurities, but the teacher
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: was not the reason. Mis Hilda, I remember you. But
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: that's the thing is like that kind of environment, I
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: made sure to help me instead of hinder me in
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: that level. So that's a huge conversation that I don't
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: think we're having enough of about how big of an
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: influence a teacher has in friendship making and that being said,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: growing into adults with kindness and compassion and less prejudice.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely and clearly. There are so many avenues of
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: friendship to discuss, and we've only gotten through half of
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: the ones we've wanted to. So this is going to
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: be a two parter. This is part one and the
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: next one we're going to talk about all kinds of
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: other things. We have so many things about friendship to
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: talk about, so please come back and listen to that one.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: If you have any thoughts about this episode, let us know.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: You can email us at Hello at Steppmhenever Told You
• 1:05:12
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• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: when Never Told You. We're also on YouTube and we
• 1:05:19
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• 1:05:21
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• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: as always, char A super produced, Christina Executive producing, my
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: ercontributor Joey.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
• 1:05:29
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