Latest / AHA Podcast / After Her Daughter Died: Finding Connection & Joy Again | Debbie Jorde, Part 2 (ep 20)

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After Her Daughter Died: Finding Connection & Joy Again | Debbie Jorde, Part 2 (ep 20) · AHA Podcast

• Ali Andrus: And there was one night I was sitting there with her, watching TV, and she just looked over at me and She paused the TV and she said Wow, I can't believe it. I'm really going to die. And I said, I know. She said, Are you gonna be sad? And I said, Of course I am. But you're gonna be here to help me. I know you're gonna help me through it. And we cried a little together Welcome back to part two of my conversation with Debbie Jorde today we pick up with one of the most tender parts of her story, Heather's final chapter and everything that came after. Okay, so we're gonna start talking about Heather's final chapter In 2008, from a hospital bed, Heather told you she was at peace with dying and insisted that you stay in Africa. What did that conversation teach you about her? So to give you a little background, Heather, this was in 2008. Heather finally had pneumonia, the thing we feared her whole life. So she's in her 30s. And she has the worst case of pneumonia that a human body can get. Double lobe pneumonia. Pneumonia in both lungs. Wow. So we started treatment, her lung collapsed. We went to the hospital. Her lung was reinflated. She was able to go home. But intuitively I knew that she wasn't. Healed. She wasn't better, but it had been about a month. And my husband and I had a trip planned to Africa for over a year. And it was coming up. And I didn't feel like I could go to Africa when Heather wasn't completely healed. And one of those strange synchronicity, intuitive things is that I didn't ask the doctors to do. a scan of her lungs to give me more information because intuitively I knew that if I had the information I would cancel the trip. Wow. So I just stayed in the well she is doing better. Not sure she's ready. But I did feel very strongly that she she wasn't well. So I called my My little sister, Shelly, who is, as I mentioned, 15 years my junior. Mm-hmm. And I sit I was crying actually. I left a message and I go, We can't go to Africa. Heather's Heather's not better. Something could happen. And you mentioned that you might want to come and stay with her. And this has never happened before. I mean, I've always been there for surgeries and stuff. And you mentioned that. you might want to come and stay with her. And if if you can't, I understand. I don't expect it. I'm not even asking it. But I'm going to cancel my trip. But if for some reason you feel like you can and you're able to come and stay with Heather, then we'll go on our trip. And she called me right back and said, I'm coming. So we went to Africa. Heather was at home. First night in Africa, the phone rang in the middle of the night. the doctor. Heather has infection in her pleura, which is known as pleuracy. So there's no way to get antibiotics to the pleura because there's no blood vessels there. So the doctor told me they have to put her in the hospital. They have to do surgery. The doctor feels like Heather will do okay through the surgery. She doesn't know how she'll do through the recovery. I wish she said, I wish I had a crystal ball, but I don't know. And then Heather wanted to talk to me, and Heather said, Mom, I want you to stay in Africa. I am at peace with dying. I knew Heather well enough to know that she meant it. I knew that she would not be happy if I came home. I knew that she wasn't afraid of dying because we both believe that we don't die. Yeah. she would jump right out of that disabled body and fly away. So there was no fear of dying. And she said, You can't stop living your life every time I have a health problem. Yeah. So she pretty much insisted I stay in Africa. So now I have the dilemma of I am staying in Africa. Am I gonna stay in Africa and be miserable? I don't think that's what Heather wants me to do. Right. And all I want to do is please Heather. So I'm going to do my very best to enjoy every minute of being in Africa. So the way I did that was I took videos and we were out on a safari. So we were in nature, we were with animals. I had an email from the doctor every morning. My sister did a really good job of protecting me from any problems that came up. She was just everything's going well. god. Heather's getting better. So and Heather was in the hospital the whole three weeks that I was in Africa. and Shelly was there and Logan was there and Heather's partner was there. so Heather gives a great story. in fact, I did a little reel of it. She said, I wasn't ready to die. And I am a fighter, as is my nature, is the way she put it. And she wasn't. She worked so hard to stay alive through that lung therapy, IV antibiotics, all of it. And when I got home, the hospital kept Heather. an extra day or two because she needed the treatment, but she could have gone home. But Heather didn't want to go home till mom was home and they had enough reasons to keep her there. So I went from the airport to the hospital parking lot and into the hospital to see Heather. The really weird thing, I know this is just chit-chat, but one of my customers really needed a haircut for a wedding or something. And I cut her hair in the parking lot at the hospital. I love that story. So anyway, I Heather was able to come home and it was another love story. We had people in our neighborhood that volunteered to go over and help Heather do her lung therapy so that Her partner could get some sleep. Wow. So he would he would take the night shift. And I went over there with raw footage, hours and hours and hours of raw footage of Africa. And Heather and I just sat there and watched Africa together. Wow. And she got better. That was in 2008. And she was here until 2021. Wow. And she writes a beautiful post on Facebook about I wasn't ready to go then. I'm ready to go now. And she writes everything she got to experience over that thirteen years. my god. It's really beautiful. That's amazing. so fast forward, Heather gets cancer. how did you honor a choice that was very hard to accept of hers? So we got Heather and Logan through COVID. Amazing. And I was afraid for her We had signed up for an aid service to come in four times a week to prepare all of her fruits and vegetables for her smoothies and make her smoothies and then put them in the fridge so they were ready for her because that kind of thing she just couldn't do herself. And her partner had already moved to another state. So she really needed an aid and I had to fight to get that aid for four days a week. And I was afraid she would get sick if we had an aid, so It's so funny that I did this. I actually applied for the aid company as a job and Heather was my only patient and I got paid to be her aid four days a week through COVID. So I got to be at Heather's two to three hours four days a week. But COVID, I was not exposed to people at all, but I was exposed to groceries. And none of us knew how you got COVID. So I was terrified I was gonna kill my kids. Yeah. So I always had to wear a mask around her and I stayed in the kitchen and a whole year and I didn't get to go be with Heather one on one without a mask. She didn't wear a mask, but I wore a mask. so we finally got through that. So now the vaccine came out. So I got vaccinated early because I was a caregiver. So I got vaccinated early and then Heather and Logan got vaccinated and that was in gosh, like March or something. So finally we didn't have to wear masks around each other. We finally felt free and I decided I would continue being her aide because she really loved it. And what else would I want to do instead? Of course I mean So I did that and then we always thought their lung disease would kill them and COVID would kill them. Yeah. And Heather, the whole time through COVID, she was too much information maybe, but she was bleeding heavily. And she and her doctor had diagnosed her with perimenopause like when she was 40 or something. And so she was in Perimentipa. She had a whole accounting of all of her monthly cycles and stuff, when they were late, how long they were, everything. And I let her advocate for herself. So finally, COVID's, we gotta find out what's going on here. she doesn't even wanna stand up because it's getting hard. Yeah. So we told the symptoms. And her doctor must have recognized something, so she referred us to an oncologist. So we didn't know for sure yet. she had a CAT scan. And we got to read the CAT scan before we went to the doctor and it suggested endometrial cancer. Well, it suggested a mass. and then it suggested spreading too. so by the time we got to the doctor, Heather was diagnosed with stage four. Be endometrial cancer. So at this point, there is no cure. So chemo will not cure it. Radiation, nothing will cure it. It's all chemo and radiation could do is maybe help her be more comfortable. Maybe help the cancer not spread as fast. So in other words, it would. Make her suffer longer. And there are side effects to both chemo and radiation. Heather was so thin, so fragile, so disabled, I couldn't even imagine Heather going through treatment. I couldn't imagine me going through Heather going through treatment. It wasn't a hard decision. Heather made the decision. No treatment. I absolutely supported her in that. It was the only logical decision to make. What we didn't know was how long, because we didn't know how long she'd been in that stage. We didn't know how long. So Heather thought she'd have about a year. And in May, when she got diagnosed, she was so relieved because she no longer had to worry about the future. Everything she worried about, not being able to get underwear to fit, not being able to get pants that were comfortable, her toenails were starting to curl under, and everything she worried about, she didn't have to worry about anymore. What a freedom. And then she got pain pills because she'd been taking Tylenol for the pain like cramps. And Tylenol wasn't cutting it. I could see that she was just uncomfortable. So when she started the pain pills, and that helped the pain, she was really just happy because she's she doesn't have the pain now. She doesn't have to worry about the future, and she figures she has a year. So we made it through that. And there was one night I was sitting there with her, watching TV, and she just looked over at me and She paused the TV and she said Wow, I can't believe it. I'm really going to die. And I said, I know. She said, Are you gonna be sad? And I said, Of course I am. But you're gonna be here to help me. I know you're gonna help me through it. And luckily she was on the pain pill, so she almost left that thought as quickly as it came. And then it was it was over. And we were back to watching the TV program. But that's the only thing that she really said. And we cried a little together but she really thought it would be longer and I didn't know for sure. But You can watch your loved ones who are sick and you can watch them change. So I had a lot of evidence that it probably wouldn't be a year. Yeah. She was really cute though, as she started to realize that she was getting weaker and sicker and she said, I don't think I have a year, maybe six months. And she died like the next week. Yeah. Did you have any hunch that it would be that quick? I was taking care of her. Her goals were: as long as I'm alive, I want to be awake, sitting in my glider, and I want to be writing. And she was working on a post for Facebook, Heather Madsen. And that was my goal. I was like a robot. I was programmed now. I am going to help Heather stay strong, which means that Heather needs to do her lung therapy twice a day or she's going to get pneumonia. And she was tired because Pain medicine was midnight, four a.m, eight a.m. twelve, four p.m. every four hours around the clock. So she wasn't getting. Good sleep, but she wanted to be, if she was going to be alive, she wanted to be alert. She did not want to take enough drugs that she would just sleep. But in human bodies, we can't control if our body needs to sleep. So she would be doing her lung therapy, which is nebulizing. It's a lot of work too. And she would sort of like fall asleep. And the nebulizer would just be. putting the mist in the air. And I needed sleep too, because I was getting up during the night. I was living with Heather at this point. And because I knew she'd be more comfortable in her own place. So gosh, another love story. So many love stories. I had a friend that was savvy on the internet with calendars and she created a calendar and friends signed up to come and sit with Heather. at twelve o'clock and six PM every day so that I could rest. And they all signed up. And Heather she didn't want them to socialize with her. She has autism. She's not social enough. So that was the rule. And they of course wanted to socialize with her because they love her. Yeah. But they came and they basically watched TV with her while she did her lung therapy and gently nudge her to wake her up when she fell asleep. And so we did that for at least a month. And then she started to just fall asleep more, get more tired, and she got thinner. And I wasn't calling hospice because if you call hospice, they don't get treatments anymore. she had to go to the hospital and get a drain put in. Cause when you have cancer, cancer creates fluid the way a blister creates fluid. So she had an abdomen full of fluid, like pregnant almost, very uncomfortable. And I didn't want her to not be able to get treatments. And the pain medicine mostly was controlling her pain. So finally she had one night of really bad pain. The pain medicine just didn't cut it. That was on a Tuesday night. And that was after she had gotten a pelvic block and didn't have as much pain medicine on Tuesday. But she kind of paid for it because on Wednesday night, it's so strange. You take pain medicine and then it doesn't work. And what if you take more? You might die, right? So that was a really hard night. So the next day I said, okay, now it's Wednesday, time for hospice. So I called in hospice because they have drops. She was taking Adivan and Oxycodone, and they have drops that work faster than pills. So we call them in and they bring in an occupational therapist and a social worker. And so this is Wednesday. An occupational therapist shows me little exercises. So here, Heather died on Friday night, and this is Wednesday. And we're doing these little exercises where she's laying on her bed and she's squeezing and releasing her calves. And I go, Good job, Heather, good job. And she goes, I know it's really cheesy, but that makes me really happy when you say that. It was so sweet. So I was really doing everything I could to keep Heather as strong, but I could see her losing she was getting weaker and thinner, so thin. And finally, Thursday, Heather and Logan were worried about me 'cause I'm just like a robot. I'm running around, whatever you want, back and forth to the kitchen, a different kind of soup, a different kind of food. Make Heather's favorite food, even if she can't eat it, and I'm just anything, anything, anything. Stand on my head. And so they're worried about me. And I'm also trying to keep Heather awake during her lung therapy. And there was one time I just go, wake up, wake up. And that really annoyed her. You know, she's so tired. so they wanted me to meet with the social worker. And they basically wanted the social worker to tell me that she wanted me to back off. Back off. Okay. and Heather was pretty groggy, but she was with it. Mm-hmm. So I said, Okay, but I need to know that Heather understands the consequences of stopping her lung therapy. if I back off and we don't do lung therapy. So the social worker said to Heather, Heather, your mom needs to understand, and Heather just said I will die sooner. And as soon as she said that, I had a new program. It wasn't keep Heather awake, keep Heather riding, keep Heather strong. It was let Heather rest. It's all about Heather's comfort. It's not about making her eat or drink or take the pills that she was taking. And by now she did have a lung infection and the pills were like horse pills. There's just absolutely no way she could swallow those pills. So I surrendered I totally surrendered that it's all about making Heather comfortable. So Thursday night, that's the first night in this whole thing that she actually wanted to go lay in her bed instead of sit on her glider until midnight for that last dose before sleep. And by the way, I really want to commend my sister Shelly, because not only did she come in two thousand and eight, but she was here during this. And we had a mattress on the floor and Shelly took the middle of the night when she was in town from California. And then I got up at eight. And then she would sleep through. So we had this system. And then sometimes she had to go home because she's getting ready for a wedding. Her own wedding. wow. So she was flying back and forth and helping me and so with Heather that last night Shelly was at home at that point because she had to go home and do a fitting for her wedding dress. Wow. And it was like the social worker, said he's going to have his phone on all weekend. And what that tells me is that they were expecting that she would probably go that weekend. So I told Shelly that and Shelly hopped on a plane. So Heather's in bed and Logan is holding her hand, reading to her, and just sitting while she wakes and sleeps and wakes and sleeps. And she wanted, she wanted chicken of star soup. And I didn't have any. And it was 11 PM. So tired. And Shelly's come flying in. Shelly's like, should I stop? I said, No, she'll be fine. We'll get it tomorrow. And I had chicken with rice. you know, I was like compromising. And I'll tell you what, talk about regrets, some of the strangest regrets that you get, but Shelly and I to this day regret not getting Heather her chicken and star soup I can see why. So Shelly got there and you know, it was very interesting because when I got up to wake Heather up at four AM, I could not wake her up. Literally, I tried for an hour, a whole hour, shaking her, talking she's deaf. So I have to yell in her ear, but she would not wake up and I was scared to go to bed because I was afraid she was gonna have another bad night. finally I surrendered and I went to bed. And in the morning I went in, she woke right up, she took her pill and she laid down and she went back to sleep. And then my niece came over who's a nurse and my sister was there and she said, I think Heather needs her bed changed. And she came in, and nurses have this way of rolling the sheet and maneuvering the patient. And very special thing happened. Heather she wasn't waking up at this point, but she was uncomfortably being moved. And she just threw her arms around my neck and said, Mama. And she never called me mama. She just said, Mama. I said, It's okay, honey. You know, there we did keep her hearing aid on her so she could hear us if she was, you know, there, which I think she was. So we finally got her all settled into bed, and the hospice person said, I said, how will I know if she's in pain? And he said, if you see her eyebrows furrow, she's uncomfortable. I sat there by her bedside with oxycodone and Atavan. And when I saw her eyebrows furrow every hour on the hour from 6 PM until she passed at 1145, I gave her oxycodone one hour and then Atavan and so I feel like I helped her pass. Yeah. I helped her go. And my greatest fear was having my children gasp for breath as they were dying because of their lung disease. Yeah. And she just was breathing shallow breaths, very shallow. She took a breath and then Logan and I were in there alone and there was a bigger space between the breaths. So I had been reading her a book that she loved at that time called Aaron's Energy. I was reading the book. Logan was sitting there holding her hand and she was sleeping. But then when she started to take fewer breaths, I put down the book and I laid on the bed and I got very close so that I could really be there. And she took her last breath. And it was so Peaceful. I wish everyone could experience their loved one passing as peacefully as Heather did. It's beautiful. It was just so peaceful. And Logan said, Well, both of us. I just made a reel about this because it was so profound. The peace that we felt. And Logan said it was immediate, literally immediate, like all these years we'd been worrying about Heather, and then through this cancer and through the physical discomfort that she experienced, and suddenly there was peace. It was like a miracle. You all felt that peace almost like Yeah. a have you heard of like the shared death experiences? Yeah. Yeah. You can feel what they're feeling. Yeah. That was kinda like The one thing that I would do different is as soon as Heather took that last breath and Logan and I felt the peace and acknowledged that she's gone. then I wanted to leave Logan with Heather. And then I went out and I told my family who was in the living room that, you know, she's gone. But I wish I'd stayed there longer. Just Logan and me and Heather. It it's strange, you know, waiting for the moment and then there's this peace. So it just was sort of like it's done. It's over. And it was like a knee-jerk reaction for me to just get up and go in and Tell everyone because they're in there waiting. Right. But I wish I had stayed longer just to feel whatever I felt. Yeah, yeah. But Logan was in there with her and he said even though she had taken her last breath as soon as I left the room, she just her eyes just popped open and she kind of looked out past him. Wow. And he said it was a little, you know, yeah scary in a way. Yeah. But He felt like she was seeing someone. Wow. So that is a wonderful we know our loved ones were there to meet Heather. I don't think anybody is alone. I agree. Yeah. No one dies alone. So it was just it was a beautiful passing. Mm. Yeah. I couldn't have designed it more beautifully. Blessing. Yeah. It was. Yeah. Wow, I made it through that without totally falling apart. I know, me too. I was for a minute, but Yeah. I was actually falling apart when I saw the photo and I thought, how am I gonna make it through the podcast if I couldn't look at the photo without falling apart. Yeah. so what was it like to be there with Logan holding her hand for her last breath? What I really loved was that Logan has this very patient, loving, grounded energy. That is so connected and you feel it when you meet him. my energy was pretty much the opposite because I was running around making sure there was food for Heather if she needed it. And even though we were at the point where she was now in bed on Thursday night, but I was still out cleaning up this or doing that or and and then we had A couple people there. My husband was there, my niece was there, her husband, she's the nurse, her husband was there, and my sister was there. So it was a very small group. Yeah. But so once in a while I was in, sometimes out. But Logan was just this loving, calm, strong presence. And I know that even if Heather was asleep. She felt his presence and she would open up her eyes and she would see Logan sitting there. And then she would be able to close her eyes and rest because she knew he was there just like he'd always been there his her whole life. And he'd hold her hand and he would put those little sponges on the stick in water and ask her if she wanted it in her mouth. Caring for his sister and her allowing her brother to care for her and welcoming it and me welcoming it too because I wanted Logan to have that experience alone with Heather, just Heather and Logan alone. Yeah. So everyone was there until about Well, Heather passed at about eleven forty five and I think everyone was there till about one thirty. Just processing it. Heather liked indirect light. So she had lamps that the light pointed up to the ceiling. So Shelley literally removed all the clutter from Heather's bedroom and turned on two indirect lights and put A bouquet of flowers in there and it was like heaven. It was beautifully lit, it was peaceful, it was calm. We all sat in there soon after Heather passed and We're together in this peacefulness and once in a while just chit-chatting. And then everyone left. And Shelly and I decided that we wanted to bathe Heather's body. So we got a little tub of water, and I had one of those soap caps that they give you in the hospital. So I put the soap cap on her hair and I dried it with a hairdryer and Shelly like was taking videos and I'm drying her hair and we're washing her body and all Heather wore were t shirts and jeans. And she had some black jeans or dark blue jeans that she only wore when she gave talks. So they were nicer. Or if she was going to lunch. So I put on those jeans and I put on her socks and the only pairs of shoes that she had that were comfortable enough to wear. She had one pair of shoes, which was one of her worries of the future. How am I gonna find some new shoes? and then I put on one of her nicer t-shirts with one of her nicer jackets, and we had her hair done. Heather did not let me put makeup on her after a certain age, but when she was young, sometimes I just put a little bit of blush because her skin was pretty pale. And she even went through a stage where she'd wear some earrings in junior high. But Heather was very she identified with female, but she loved it if people didn't know if she was a male or a female because Heather was a soul. Heather was a spirit. She was not a male or a female. She was a soul. Yeah. And that's how she saw herself, and that's how she experienced herself. So she's all dressed now and it's probably 3 30 or 4 in the morning. And Shelly and I felt like, okay, Heather's ready. And we actually went in and slept till about 10 the next morning. And then when I got up, hospice told me I could keep Heather's body. I think they told me 18 hours, which would have been about 6 PM was about the time that. we had arranged for someone to come. And so Heather was in there and I had on a plaid shirt that she had. So I was wearing Heather shirt and she was wearing her clothes and I would just go in and lay by her. And I would drape I never could have draped my leg over Heather when she was alive. She would have been so uncomfortable, like just physically. Just being in her body was uncomfortable to have somebody come and drape their leg. But I wanted to be as close to her body as I could be because it was her body. Mm-hmm. I knew it wasn't Heather. I knew she wasn't in there, but it was her body and it was what I was familiar with and I loved her body. Yeah. So her cat laid on top of her, Thomas. And I lay by her with my arm over her chest and my leg over her legs. And I would just take her all in. Look at her hair, look at her eyes. Even though she didn't look exactly like Heather 'cause she'd gotten so thin, but Heather's eyes didn't close when she slept normally because she didn't have all of her lower eyelid and so Having her eyes not closed all the way and having her eyeballs just going back it wasn't an unusual look for Heather when she was asleep like it would be for most people. So I just took her in and absorbed her and then I'd go out and sit with whoever was out there, my husband or Shelly, and then I'd go back in and I'd lay with Heather some more. I was just in and out and looking at her and I had all this time to process that Heather's soul was not in this body anymore. And I could get ready to be able to give them her body rather than have someone take it away from me. You know? It helped me to be able to be the one that said, okay, I'm ready. And so it was 5 30 and I knew they were coming at six, and Logan lived downstairs. So Heather lived on the third floor and Logan lived downstairs. So I texted Logan and I said, Do you want to come and say goodbye? They're going to come and get Heather's body in 30 minutes. And he said, Okay, but he wasn't sure if he wanted to or not. So he came up and Heather was laying on the bed in her lunch clothes. And to Logan, she looked like she was ready to go out to lunch. Like she just looked like Heather ready to go out to lunch. And he had an immediate reaction after she died that Heather's not in that body anymore. So it wasn't like he saw Heather ready to go to lunch. Is Heather alive? But it was a positive experience for him to see Heather look like Heather and be in Heather's clothes as if we're going to give a talk or we're going to lunch. And he got to go in by himself and say goodbye. And then when they came to get her body, she's in an apartment complex and I was so happy to see that it wasn't a hearse. Yeah. It was a great big sedan, like a suburban. Mm-hmm. And they brought a collapsible bed up and they closed the door and they probably transferred Heather from her bed to the collapsible bed. And they had this big beautiful quilt that had elastic around it that went around the portable bed. So there's no way that Heather's gonna fall off or that the blanket's gonna fall off. It she was like all tucked in. Wow. And then they just they took her out and It felt time. It was time. I felt ready. Yeah. I did. But the interesting thing is my sister Shelly is so intuitive. And she knew I wouldn't leave. She knew I wouldn't leave Heather's place. So she had some of our loving friends come in and literally remove all the sheets, all the blankets. They took everything to launder it. Literally there was nothing left. I could not stay there. Mm. Cause she arranged that everything was taken. And then we went home and Shelly was there and she's so amazing. She was like going through cupboards and getting rid of outdated stuff and organizing and you know, she's a lot like me in that what can I focus on that I can control? So she couldn't give me back Heather. She couldn't help me not hurt. Yeah. But she could help me organize my cupboards and closets so that I could feel better at home. That's so sweet. And what an amazing sister. Yeah. So it was wonderful for me to have Logan there for Heather, with Heather. For me, with me, my husband, Shelly, my niece Desi, who was a nurse. and her husband who never ever experienced anything like this before. It was a profound experience for him. And he felt honored to be there. Wow. And it was just beautiful. Another love story. Just lots of love stories. So many love stories. Challenges can really bring a lot of love stories into your life. Yeah, absolutely. I've felt more love after my daughter has passed than ever before in my life. It's like we live in our hearts more than we do our heads. Yeah. Yeah. When you've experienced that. You do. A loss of a loved one. Yeah. It's so true. And when you recognize it in other people too. Other people that have been through such hard challenges, it seems like you have this special bond. Yeah. Yeah. that was beautiful. it's so important that this stuff is shared. I actually enjoy listening to hospice nurses that will tell their stories of sitting with people and I feel like it's actually a beautiful thing and I never thought that I would think that. my previous self would think I would never want that job or that would be so hard and how awful to see that. But now we're Now we're like, Bring it on. I wanna have some spiritual. I know. I was like I mean it's just like Birth, it's such a sacred part of your soul's journey, the birthday. That's why your podcast is so important, Ali And I found a podcast where it's specifically mothers talking about their child dying and all the details. And they said we want to try and remove the stigma of dying. That's what I wanna do too. And it's so healthy for parents and people to talk about what happened. And the whole everything they went through from this A to Z. Mm-hmm. And people can leave if they don't want to hear it all. I think it is important to start shifting that paradigm and making death not such a scary, awful, horrible thing that you can't listen to. Yeah. Well, I don't know about you, but just having so many NDEs on now. So many people. There's tons of them. I didn't tell people for twelve years and now they're broadcasting it and it's like I think they give me the courage to come and talk about spiritual stuff. Yeah. But it's like they're doing it. It's so helpful. And the more people do it, the more people do it. The more it's okay. And yeah. and the more stories you hear also, because for me I was such a skeptic at first about what happens after you die and okay, maybe the lights flickering is just a coincidence or something. but then this is a short time for you to go from that to this. yeah. Yeah. But you keep hearing it over and over and at some point you think not Everyone can be making up the same stories. there's But see you had to be open to even listen to them. Yeah. Yeah. So well because you want to. You you you're still You've got to know where your daughter is. Yes. That's all I kept saying after I have to know where she went, what's she doing? All of it. that is exactly what I was thinking. She can't be gone. She can't be gone. Because She's somewhere but she's not in there. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And now you know, I'm learning to find ways to feel her. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's so important that this stuff is shared. it's so important. Yeah, so thank you for doing it. And thank you. Okay. So you've said that reading grief books made you sadder. what has actually helped you? What's really helped is I messaged A woman who lost her husband. And I said, How did you do it? And she said, the grief never goes away. You learn to live around the grief. Yeah. And that I really connected with that. And it was even comforting to know that it's okay. If the grief never goes away. Mm-hmm. So I was very busy. And it was necessary because I purchased a duplex in January that Heather and Logan were going to live in. It was now August and Logan was supposed to move in on September first. So I had to get all of Heather's belongings out of her apartment. And I was so grateful that the government agency that was helping Heather pay rent Gave me another month, which was wonderful. So I was very busy and I was busy in a meaningful way. I was getting Heather's Earth home and Logan's home ready for them to move into. So I was working with contractors and pretty much giving them complete leeway to make the best decisions they could because I wasn't in a position to be picky about certain things. So I was packing Heather's things and I was and it was hard, really hard. But being busy was very therapeutic. Again, I've probably said this a few times during our conversation, but I couldn't bring Heather back. I couldn't control that Heather had died. So I was focusing on what I could control. Yeah. So my focus was going on packing them and getting the duplex ready for Logan to move in. And then once Logan moved in, we were getting it ready for his disabilities. So I was putting up shelves. I was anything that Logan and I could think of that would make his life more comfortable and better, So I was spending hours and hours doing that. Logan had expressed a desire to share himself because he's autistic. Yeah. His disabilities make it hard to be social. So he was interested in h being heard. His thoughts about things. So I had this idea of a podcast. Only Logan and I called it a vlog because I didn't realize they were called podcasts. Mm-hmm. I thought a vlog was a video. blog. Yeah. So over at Heather's Earth Home, we got one of Logan's paintings and set up chairs and I bought microphones and not like these. These are great. And so Logan and I every week started going over there and I'd ask him what the topic was and I'd try and be prepared so that I could help guide the conversation. So we were filming this podcast together. And we did that January till spring. And it was a lot of work getting all dressed up every Friday, thinking up a topic, studying about the topic so that I could understand what could be asked, what could be discussed, and then hours and hours and hours every weekend editing the podcast, the hems and the ha's and the ums and All of that. Mm-hmm. So I was very, very, very busy. Now I don't recommend being busy and not feeling the grief. I knew the grief was there. I cried when I needed to. I felt the grief. I felt the sadness with the activity. It's not like the activity made the grief go away. I did it with the grief. Yeah. So I just kept putting one foot in front of the other, doing what needed to be done with the grief. Mm-hmm. But I needed to rest. at six o'clock every night because with MS, as I mentioned, I need to rest or I might as well just go to bed because I won't be good company. I will be so tired. I'll be miserable. Mm-hmm. So every single time I would lay down to rest, the grief would just come flooding in. I couldn't rest because I would start crying almost immediately and then my nose would get stuffed up and you can't rest when you're stuffed up. That's true. It was just impossible. I just couldn't get any rest. Yeah. And so I started to take a little small dose of Xanax. Mm-hmm. And the dose was so small, but it seemed to relax me enough. that I could at least fall asleep even. And I did that for a whole year. And then I started to feel the fatigue during the day and recognizing that this doesn't just feel like MS fatigue. Like how long does Xanax stay in your system? And it was really hard to give it up because it helped so much. Just a little tiny dose helped so much. And eventually I did, but then also just I would listen to near death experiences on YouTube. Yeah. And I'd be half awake or half asleep. I would never go to sleep by just laying down and waiting to fall asleep. I always had my earb buds in and I was always listening to something until I fell asleep. Mm-hmm. And I would set a timer for it to turn off in a half an hour. So that helped me so much. Mm-hmm. Me too. So and then I do the course in miracles and I have my spiritual practices and the signs. All of the signs from Heather. The duplicate numbers, not just duplicate numbers at any random time. They were at a meaningful time. Yeah. They were when I was Pushing myself to go for a walk and I was struggling, and all of a sudden there would be six birds of prey that fly overhead. Wow. And just the numbers on the phone would come at specific times when I was having a hard time or I was really missing Heather, or I wasn't feeling well. So I take a picture on my phone, then I would see we had an orange. Dragonfly. A year after Heather passed, it came one Saturday morning and it just stayed out there for hours. Wow. On top of the hummingbird feeder, right up on top. I'd never seen an orange dragonfly in my life. I saw that photo. And it just stayed and stayed and stayed. And then another time the butterflies that Come at a special time. Yeah. It wouldn't just be, look, there's a butterfly. Hi Heather. I do that now all the time. Yeah. But at first it was at very specific times. Yeah. I couldn't go outside because Heather died in the spring. And I usually love the springs. And when I go outside in the spring, everything is good in the world. Well, I was dreading the next spring. Mm-hmm. before Heather died, I couldn't think about after Heather died. Because if I thought about with a surgery, you say, Well, when it's all over, I'm gonna go sit in the yard. When it's all over, I couldn't think about when it's all over because when it is all over that meant Heather would be gone. Yeah. So I couldn't even go there. Yeah. So I couldn't go out in the back my sanctuary, I couldn't go out there anymore. Because the grief would just come flooding in. In fact, it was only this spring that I could go out there and it's been five years. Wow. It was this spring that I could finally go outside and feel that, this is so beautiful without that grief coming in. Wow. And so nature, being in nature. Yeah. And Other parents' stories I saw helping parents heal. Yeah. I still remember driving up on a weekend to the university because they had a free shredding truck there and the grief was I pulled over at the foothill strep mall and I cried so hard because I missed Heather so much. What do you do with that? It hurts so much. And so I went to Helping Parents Heal and I wrote what I was feeling right then. And they do screen so it's not like it got posted immediately, but just having somewhere to go and write how much I was hurting and be able to send it felt like I wasn't alone. Yeah. So that helped a lot. Mediums, mm-hmm. Evidential mediums. Mm-hmm. And I say evidential because there There are some mediums that are better than others. Mm-hmm. And there are some mediums who really aren't mediums at all. Mm-hmm. So you have to try and find other parents that have found mediums that have given evidence. Mm-hmm. And I took a mediumship course because of course I want to connect with Heather and I want to hear her voice and I want to do all that. And actually that was very therapeutic. And even though it didn't Turned me into a medium, it helped me learn how to listen and how to be quiet. And I got to do little activities where intuitively I could say something to someone else. So I would get these amazing readings. One was even from a student in that course who's like, Heather will not let me go to sleep. She keeps knocking on the wall. And she described Heather to me in her blue baseball cap and I had a picture of Heather in New York with her black fanny pack in her blue baseball cap and I sent it to her and that's what she saw. But I know when you haven't experienced an evidential mediumship. It's just hard to believe. Yeah. And if you don't believe in that stuff, it's okay. But I'm telling you, I found a medium through Suzanne Giesman that for some reason she and Heather really connected. Yeah. So she would pick Heather up really easily and she felt Heather's energy and recognized it. But evidence, what kind of evidence? Mm-hmm. Well, she would Heather would literally tell her what I was doing the morning before. I had an ingrown toenail, and she's like, I'm seeing a big toe. I'm, because they they're playing charades with the spirit. Yeah. And they're trying to understand what they're trying to say. Yeah. And so there's just undeniable evidence that mediums can give you when they're good evidential mediums that you simply can't brush off. You can't shrug it off. Yeah. You got to have a reading by Suzanne Giz. I did, yes. I did. I feel very, very lucky in that. she's incredible. She's definitely an evidential medium. And that was lucky. That was because McKel nudged her when I was at a book signing for Wolf's Message. And she says, Your daughter just nudged me. and I had one really bad one, the first one, and then I had another one at a bereaved mom's retreat and that one was quite good. and then the next one was Suzanne's. So I had already had a couple, so I had a bad experience, a good experience had and then a range of experiences. And then yeah, Suzanne's was was incredible. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's There was a really fun message from Heather. So I had Heather's celebration of life at the Red Butte Gardens and it was by invitation. really close friends and family and I basically got up and said I can't tell you. about Heather as well as she can tell you herself. So I played her talk. It's called Is What You See, What You Get. Seeing Beyond. Mm. Wow. And so I played that. so Heather gave the talk at her own celebration of life. That's cool. And it was just honestly, it was two months after she went because I needed time. And I wasn't gonna show her body. And I thought I would get Heather cremated, but because I had a couple lots that I inherited, I for whatever reason, I always thought I'd cremate her body and I just couldn't burn her body. I just couldn't do it. Yeah. So she was buried immediately because we didn't go through all of the embalming and stuff. So It's Christmas, right around Christmas, maybe even Christmas Eve, and my brother Shaun, who's had NDEs and spiritual experiences, and one of his friends that's a medium received a message from Heather about the uniqueness of her celebration of life and how perfect it was and how much she loved it. So that was my Christmas gift. Wow. And Sean's in Hawaii and the medium was like in New York somewhere or something. Wow. It was just one of those things where they have a group, let's see who comes, and Heather came. What a great Christmas present. So we could spend a whole podcast on the spiritual experiences that you've had with McKel and that I've had with Heather. Yeah. And my nephew Brandon. Yes. We should definitely do that. one thing I I haven't asked you that I've been curious about because how I met you was through your brother when he was speaking. And I thought, well that would be so helpful if you had someone in your family who's actually had an N D E. Like how much that would give you so much faith that, Your soul continues on. has that been really helpful? Can you talk to Shaun about it? It's really been wonderful. Yeah. and it's been fun because when it first happened to Shaun, yeah. Like you'll hear a lot of people that have NDE say, I thought I was crazy, so I didn't tell anyone. For whatever reason, Shaun felt safe in telling me and in telling Heather some of these early experiences that he had. Wow. And he would send me an email with I know this is gonna sound crazy, but this is what happened and Wow. And One thing I've noticed is that I never disbelieve someone when they say they've had a spiritual experience or an N D E. And even they say, even Shaun at first they can't believe it, even though they experienced it. It's not like suddenly they're on this planet in their physical body in the physical and the other realm is so real that they don't have physical emotions anymore. They still get tired, they still get cranky, they still get hungry. And they still say, Did that really happen? Yeah. So I got to experience Shaun going through that whole entire phase of this happened, did this really happen? This happened. Did this really happen? I know I'm not alone. Mom sent me this song right at this time. and it just kept pouring in. Wow. And so The more he talked about it and the more he shared it. The more it was almost as if I was experiencing it too, even though I wasn't experiencing it the way he did. I was experiencing him experiencing the miracle of it all. Wow. And so that definitely helped strengthen my beliefs and strengthen my connections. And strengthen my intention to connect. Yeah. Yeah. What a gift And even Shaun says, even though our mom is his guide and she's always on the job helping him, that doesn't erase some of the human feelings of conflict that he had with her while she was here. And that's good for me to hear too. Because our human feelings get in the way of us being able to hear the message. It doesn't get in the way of them communicating. They are communicating all the time. But we block the communication without meaning to. Yeah. And it might even be just that bad memory of that fight you had with someone or seeing the person on the other side as being the difficult person, but they're no longer in their physical body. So they're no longer the difficult person. They are now of pure love and free. And so I know Abraham once said, Esther Hicks said she didn't recognize Jerry because she was looking for the Jerry that was physical. Yeah. So if I look for the Heather that was physical, then it might be harder to experience her, but Heather was so spiritual while she was here that my spiritual experience with Heather is so real that she really is here. Yeah. But then when I think of her actual physical body sitting in her glider, getting up to walk to the fridge, and then it's like all of a sudden I see the physical Heather. And then I realize she's not here. Yeah. But it's like they're Different. There's spiritual heather and physical heather. And yeah. And I do miss the physical heather, but I have the spiritual heather with me all the time. Yeah. And I hear Shaun talk about that. So it helps me a lot. It helps me a lot. Yeah. That is And he's remembered more and more and more of it along the way. Yeah. So and it also helps me when I have a spiritual experience. I immediately dictate it into my phone, write it down. Mm-hmm. Because I don't always remember all the details. Yeah, that's okay. And want to remember the details. Mm-hmm. So validates it. Yeah. That it happened. Absolutely. And that someone who who you can talk to. Yeah. Also who gets it because he's had his own spiritual experience. Cause I didn't even know what an N D E was Yeah, I didn't know any of that, so Yeah. I don't remember when I first Anita Morjani. yeah. She is one of the Anita Morjani, dying to be me. I read her book and heard her story right when I was diagnosed with MS. wow. So that was theme very powerful N D E. Yeah. And it helped me so much. I listened to it over and over and over while I was hiking. I'd be listening to her whole story. That's it was And I don't even remember when they all started popping up on like I don't remember exactly when everybody started to be so courageous. Yeah. In sharing their NDEs with us to help us through grief. I know. Because they do. It really and if I heard a NDE that I didn't connect with, I just stopped it. Yeah. And I said, I don't I think we all create our own experience. So I'm not saying they didn't experience that. I'm just saying that's not the experience that I wanna have right now. And I'm not gonna create it by listening to it. Yeah. But there will be some people that will hear that and say see. Yeah. Or they'll connect to it or it will give them an adversion against NDEs. So We can find whatever we want to find. It's so true. Yeah. that's amazing. And I love that both you and your brother are so willing to share. Well, what was really fun. This is a whole nother story. So I'm not gonna tell the whole thing because it's it's getting late here. But we're having so much fun talking about all of these topics so that we can share them with you. Yes. But Shaun was here. in the summer when he spoke at Yeah, the IANDS At Utah. Utah IN. And it just so happens that Shaun and I got to share a spiritual experience with Heather he'd never seen her memorial site. So we went to see her memorial site. And the day Logan and I saw Heather's memorial site There was a silver star balloon floating above the tree, right above her grave. And we're like, sign from Heather. Well, Shaun and I go there and Shaun's like, I feel a wind, a breeze look up. We look up and we see a heart cloud. We see like the capital H in the clouds. And then for some reason I'm nudged to turn and look and all the way across the cemetery is a silver star balloon. wow. And I just told Shaun the story about the balloon. We drove over there and this family has like everyone has one. There's like six of And I went over and Sean's like, You're gonna go talk to him. And I said, Yeah, this is like an amazing story. Yeah. So I went over and I said, Can I take a picture of your balloons? And I told him about the story and they were Big smiles and one of their teenage boys, they walked behind our car. so I connected, took pictures, thank you, went to the car, showed Shaun. We get in the phone, and I'm looking for the original silver star picture. It's the same day at the same time. Are you serious? I'm serious. So Shaun and I are together, and even though he's had three NDEs and I've had spiritual experience, we're still going. I can't believe this. Can you believe this? That is. And then the people were walking to their car behind mine, so I went out and I told them about the time and the day and they're like smiling and and their teenage boy just hands me the silver balloon. how sweet. And so it was just one thing after another while Shaun and I were here and having these experiences with Heather. And Yeah. So yes, even someone like Shaun who speaks about it, leads groups with people sharing their own NDEs and spiritual experiences, and he still is fascinated to have a spiritual experience. Yeah, yeah. that's amazing. It was great. That is such a cool story. wow, thank you for sharing that. I love these stories. Okay, So Logan drew Heather with a halo. And what has it been like to grieve alongside him? it's been Logan, just like he was 100% committed to being there for Heather in her time of passing, he has been one hundred percent committed with very clear intentions to help mom through this as he's going through it himself. Yeah. When Logan and I finished doing the Podcast, one of our episodes was why isn't Heather here with us doing this podcast? So we talked about her passing and what we experienced. And as we approached six or seven podcasts and realizing how hard they were, it's just like, why is this so hard? For Logan and me. To sit down together. And so we just sat at Heather's Earth home, each in a glider, saying, Why is this so hard for us? And we realized it's because we really haven't had a lot of opportunities to build a close relationship. Heather needed me a lot. And Logan recognized that Heather needed me a lot. So he pretty much gave me to her. And he didn't ask for what he needed. He just gave me up. And because I have personality characteristics like the excitement that I feel here. When a person doesn't have that level of excitement, or you could say vibrations, and they're more of a low key, centered, grounded, they can be really uncomfortable with someone that is kind of high energy all over the place. It's like being flashed. Yeah. So Logan and I recognize that We can't pretend that we've had this close relationship. Heather and I had a very close relationship. I didn't realize how much of my life was centered around helping Heather's life be better, finding something to help Heather, being with Heather, sharing spiritual experiences, reading spiritual books together. writing together, sharing our writing with each other. It was just back and forth, back and forth. And when she was gone, I lost my inspiration. it was like they say like losing your arm. It was truly like losing such a big part of myself. Yeah. I was I will never be the same person that I was when Heather was here. But Logan and I recognized and so we had a conversation and communicated about Going forward and being open and honest with each other Logan would text me and say, I need calm today. And I knew what that meant. Or if I was really tired, and I try and rest before I go to Logan so that I can be a good friend and partner and conversationalist. And my energy gets really high when I'm tired. Believe it or not, like a little kid that they go berserk and it's because they need a nap. Mm-hmm. and I get really sensitive if I'm tired. And Logan, if I drop something, his autism and he's lives in a controlled environment, he's going to lash out. Mm-hmm. He'll just yell at me, Mom, really loud. And immediately I'm like, like I'm gonna cry. Mm-hmm. And so I was able to start saying, I'm really tired today, so I'm gonna be a little oversensitive. So so we started to do that together, and we did this through the grief process. So we always talked about the signs we got, Logan would dump out his frozen dinner and there is a heart-shaped carrot. And then he looks at his watch and it's 555. So the combination of the time on the clock. And the heart shaped carrot. Hi, Heather. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So all this time I was going over there all day Thursday, all day Friday, because on Thursdays we would build shelves and do what we needed to do physically active. And on Fridays we would sit and talk. Mm-hmm. And he is amazing. So Logan realizes with Heather gone how much memories of Heather help us. Remember when Heather did this, remember when Heather did that. And Logan is so clear that memories have helped us that he is intentionally creating memories for me for when he's gone. Because Logan has health problems, lung disease, kidney problems, chronic pain. It's amazing that Logan is still here at 46 years old. I don't know how long I will have Logan. I asked him to send me a heart every morning when he wakes up so I will know he's alive. That's how much of a reality it is. So Logan listens to me talk about Heather, listens to me talk about spiritual things, shares what he wants to about his spiritual things. And when we go to a doctor appointment, we call it an outing. So I drive and Logan takes pictures. And at the end of the day, he goes in and uses his artistic skills to crop the pictures. And he sends me the pictures of our outing that day. And which appointment it was what we were doing. Wow. And then he sends me a selfie of himself smiling at me. my God. Before bed. That is so sweet. So Logan, he knows how important he has been for me during this grieving process. And I know how important I've been for Logan through this grieving process. And we have really leaned on each other. And he is just going out. He's already trying to help me through the grieving process that he knows I'll go through when he's gone. big heart he has. Yeah. It's huge. He has a huge heart. Okay. So what would you say to a mother who is grieving who may have recently lost a child and can't imagine surviving the next day? I would say. One minute at a time. Just one minute at a time. Mm-hmm. You don't have to know how you're gonna make it. Yeah. Just get through one minute at a time. Yeah. And you will start to recognize that you will start doing the necessary chores and the grief will be there. It will always be there. Yeah. You will start to live your life around it. And one day you will catch yourself smiling. I never thought I'd smile again. I never thought I'd be happy again. And then you start to laugh at something. And I still remember, I wrote it down, so I have the date. It was about a year and a half after Heather passed. I got on Facebook and someone had posted a short, great big smile with some inspirational something. And that was the very first spark of inspiration that I had. inspiration to share. I couldn't write, I couldn't share, I couldn't post. Because Heather and I did that together. It always triggered grief. It's only been in the last six months that I've started to be inspired to share, inspired to do this. Yeah. And It happens just one minute at a time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's very true. I can relate to that. Yeah. And pretty soon a year's gone by. And you just never know because like at three years, you'd think, it's been three years, it's gonna be it was awful. Yeah. Or my birthday one day. It was like I couldn't stop crying on my birthday. Yeah. Because Heather wasn't here and my birthday was special to Heather. You just never know. It's just gonna come and let it come, feel it. Be kind to yourself. And just keep putting one foot in front of the other and keep feeling the love for your loved ones. Mm-hmm. Keep looking for the beautiful flower or the beautiful post. Mm-hmm. The beautiful video. Mm-hmm. Whatever can get you through. Yeah. One minute at a time. One minute at a time. Those are good words for. Really anything, any challenge, not just losing a child. So true. Yeah. if you could go back to that twenty one year old in the delivery room, what would you tell her? I would say You don't have to know everything right now. You don't have to know anything right now. Just hold her. And You are going to be filled with the most indescribable, strongest love. And love is the most powerful thing on earth. Yeah. And that's what's going to help you through. Yeah. One minute at a time. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And also, this child is gonna have a personality. And she's gonna have ideas and talents and hopes and dreams, along with the disabilities. Yeah. And that's hard to see when you don't know anything and all you see are the yeah the challenges. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I don't know if that twenty one year old could hear that, but that's what I would want to say to her. Yeah. that's perfect. what has Heather taught you that you're still learning? Heather has taught me to choose love. That was her motto. She lived by choose love. Now what that means is The guy that pulled out in front of me just now really triggered my anger. And then I hear Heather's voice, choose love. And then I say, I could accidentally pull out in front of someone. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So just choose the loving response whenever you're able. We're not always able to choose a loving response because our knee-jerk reaction is. too fast and too strong. But look for the opportunities. Heather even talked about like the space between the lights on the ceiling. The space between like notice ever all the details in the room. So you can be sitting there feeling some uncomfortable way. And all of a sudden you notice the little tree in the corner or the little flower or the floor color. How nice it looks with the sun glowing on it. there's always something to see that's positive. Yeah. And when when you see what's positive, you're you're choosing love. Yeah. Just choose love. That's so true. I know it sounds so and so simple and trite, but But it's very true. And Heather said she was very afraid of the pain that would come with the cancer. And she said, I'm going to use pain as my teacher to choose love. Wow. Wow. She was amazing. She really sounds amazing. I was really upset with her because she was taking so long to play with her pills that she wasn't eating or something, and I was frustrated because I couldn't get her to Yeah, and and I got frustrated, and then I just dropped down on my knees and I put my hands on her leg and I said, I'm so sorry. And I was just crying. How can I possibly get upset with you or frustrated? And she just looked at me and she said, You're forgiven. And she was just like that. Just all the way till the end. Just pure love. Yeah. yeah, we can all learn a lot from Heather. Yeah. Mm. That's so beautiful. Mm. how is Logan still teaching you? And how is his art? Logan's amazing. Logan lives every moment of every day with clear intention to have purpose and meaning in his day. He makes his choices consciously. How he moves his body so that he doesn't have future pain. He's always looking for a better feeling thought. What does he need? And I watch him persevere through autism, isolation, chronic pain, all the things he has to do to take care of his body. And he gives me strength. I'm sure that every time I come over on Friday, he's probably not. always in the mood, but he always wants to be in the mood, so he finds a way to be in the mood. And we have conversations. he uses his strength and he has insights and wisdom. I can sit here and give you 200 words to answer a question. Logan can say a brief little sentence and it's just loaded with insight. Mm-hmm. Like I said, food, shelter, water. Yeah. We can get through a tough challenge by saying, do I have food, shelter, water? Yeah. Yes I do. So what's the problem? Wow. Such an And he painting hurts. Painting hurts his body. Yeah. But when Logan's painting, he loves every stroke. That he makes on the painting. So he loves the actual act of painting, not just the result, not just the idea. it's like his soul is experiencing being in a human body in human form, causing a result from a human action. And he's so aware of that. So he just keeps painting. And he'll say, Well, what am I gonna do with? the paintings. Yeah. Cause having a business is hard, but he feels good. So I watch Logan move in the direction of what feels better for him. Mm-hmm. So that he can create a life worth living and stay here. And he's very aware that staying alive. Brings a lot of positivity into a lot of people's lives. Yes. Yeah. How's Logan doing? He's painting every day. Happy. He makes people happy just having them know he's painting every day. Yeah. And being alive and persevering. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I watch him do that and I watch him say, I should socialize more and I've got these friendships I should nurture. But I feel so much better when I'm alone and texting hurts. and so he's choosing what he needs to do for himself so that he can feel more content and even have some happiness and joy in between the contentness and the difficulty. So that's how I learned from him. I literally learned from him every day, watching how he Brings happiness into my life intentionally and his own life as well. Yeah. He's doing what lights his soul up and how that ripples out and you do what lights your soul up and there are different things. But it's like he gives me permission to do it too. Yeah. So beautiful. where do you find your joy now? I find my joy through Finding a happier thought, just like we've talked about. Reading something inspirational. Noticing the beauty around me. I find joy in eating healthy and doing exercise even though it's not easy and it's not fun. Mm-hmm. But there's satisfaction. I get satisfaction in having self discipline and being lighter on my feet so that I recognize when I'm walking lightly or I'm bending over easily. Yeah. Or I'm curling up in a chair easily. Yeah. So I do find joy in keeping this physical car. Yeah. Running as good as it can. And finding other ways to feel better, like I find joy in staying connected with my siblings. So for years I have the first Wednesday of the month, I zoom for a couple hours with my sister Shelly, who's in California. And the second Tuesday of the month I zoom with a very dear friend of mine that's in Las Vegas. And the third Wednesday of the month I zoom with my sister Kathy, who's in South Carolina. wow. And the fourth Tuesday night of the month I zoom with Shaun, who's in Hawaii. And my brother lives in Lehi So once a month I drive out to Lehi and I find so much joy and satisfaction in helping others. So I find joy in if someone needs something that I can help with, I find so much joy in being able to help them. Whether it's a few dollars or I find joy in sending text to friends or family that I know are going through something hard just Letting them know I'm thinking of them. Yeah. And it helps me too. it's yeah. It fills my cup. Mm-hmm. And I find a lot of joy in playing with videos and photos and being able to clone and heel or improve the color. Just so much fun. And I love telling stories. I was a hairstylist for forty years. And I had a story to tell, which is why I wrote my book, because I was compelled. But the truth is writing, it's not like a writer who can't not write. Yeah. Like I'm not attracted to writing that way. But what I have learned from Heather is to write authentically, speak authentically. That's how you connect to people and I get a lot of joy in connecting to people. Yeah. So here and there on Facebook, I'm not on there regularly enough and I don't go visit other people enough. But if it's just a little moment and I go on whoever's flying by at the moment, if it looks like they need a kind word or acknowledgement or encouragement, it brings me joy. Yeah. To do that. It really brings me joy to help others. Yeah. And when I think back, why did I give a talk in ninth grade? Why did I I just go back how much I helped my mother and how much I helped my family and I help myself too. I've learned to help myself. That brings me joy when I listen to myself when I say I need a nap and I go take a nap. Yeah. Or I listen to myself say, you don't have to do the dishes today. It's not like it's gonna hurt anybody. Or you can sleep in today. Yeah. So I experience joy when I connect to source, when I connect to myself, take enough time for myself. and just being conscious in life. Awake. I find joy in being awake. Awake. Yes, me too. It's hard to go to bed at night because I want to be awake. But of course I have to go to bed because I have to sleep in order to be awake. Yeah. But I do. I find so much joy in being conscious and awake and aware. Yeah, that's amazing. I think that's probably so inspiring for a lot of people to hear because especially early on in grief, I wanted to hear from people further along to see if it was possible to feel joy. And so people who were further down the road, I thought there's no way I'll ever feel joy again. So To hear someone like you with everything that you've been through to say that you find joy just in being awake. Yeah. That's huge. Very inspiring. So I'm inspired by hearing you say it back to me. Yeah. See, and it's just a ripple effect. there's a light at the end of the long tunnel. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There is a light. There is a light. And choose love. That's right. Choose love, which you so often do. I remember even just right after I met you, I think the very next day I got a nice text from you and it was the sweetest thing and it just made me tear up and I thought, wow, I've never experienced such love from people. you know, after going through such a hard thing. To meet other souls who have been through hard things, you really have such a capacity to love. Yeah. And it brings joy to connect. Yes. And that love. It does. It does. Even if you walk away and suddenly you're back in grief, at least you got to experience that love while you were connected to someone. Yeah, yeah. And all those things are really excellent ways to find joy. A lot of them I also do. And on a different podcast we were talking about how gratitude and serving other people is kind of like a secret magic pill for when you're really feeling grief. It's like, ooh, if I could find someone to help to serve to make them feel good, then that'll be my thing that, the magic that gets me out of it. So I agree. Yeah. It's so good. okay, we are we are at the final question. Final question. Yes, if you could share maybe your favorite aha moment or A few top aha moments. Well, I shared a few along the way. And I'm glad I used the word aha because they really were aha moments. But really the transformational aha moment for me was in my late twenties when I did that seminar. And I realized only I am responsible. For me. No one else. There is no one else that's responsible for my happiness, that's responsible to make my birthday a nice birthday. No one. And with that aha moment. Came, I don't want to know this. Because I thought I was gonna get married and my husband was gonna take care of me for the rest of my life. Yeah. It didn't even occur to me that I would have to be responsible for literally everything in my life. Yeah. Happy? Not happy? Yes. Whatever it is, I'm responsible. Yep, absolutely. But along with that also came empowerment. Because I realized that I was accountable for every single thing in my life. Now, was I responsible for having a disabled child? That's different than being accountable. I chose to get pregnant. I chose to keep my baby with disabilities. I chose to get pregnant again. I chose to keep that baby. I chose to not stay married to the man that was living with another woman. So I was a single mom of two kids with disabilities. So realizing that I'm accountable, and that means that I'm making choices along the way. And the choices that I made before that moment are what created my life at that moment. So the choices that I've made between then and now are what have created my life the way it is. Now, is my MS doing so well because of the choices I've made to find the positive and not fear the future and take the medicine and believe that it's going to help me? Maybe, but we don't know that. Yeah. Yeah. But they are. Talking more and more about how our mind is connected to our body, which means our choices that we make. So pay attention. If I pay attention to how I feel, if I feel good, I'm gonna make a better choice. And if I make a better choice, I'm gonna create a better life. Yeah. Yeah. So to me, that sounds like old news because we've all heard someone say you're responsible for you. Change your thoughts, change your life. But yeah, I really experienced that aha moment when that wasn't my reality. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It wasn't my reality that I was responsible for me. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's huge. And it changed my life. That is and I have a good life, even with all the challenges. Because I'm creating it. One choice at a time. Mm-hmm. that's huge. Thank you. That's very inspirational. Thank you, Ali Thank you for this opportunity. Thank you for starting this podcast. Yeah. you know, I'd watch a podcast from time to time and I'd think, gee, that would be a nice way to share my story if it can help someone to make a positive difference. But I couldn't imagine a podcast that would fit. what would fit? A podcast, sure, talking about disabilities but I wasn't inspired, you know. But then I met you and then I looked you up on Facebook and then I saw your reels from your podcast. So I looked up your podcast and I listened in and I went, wow. awaken, heal, and align. Yeah. Awaken, heal, and align. That's right up my alley. That captures what I'm about in my life. And what an inspiration you have to have started this. And to help you through your grief and to help others. And I'm sure McKel is helping you do this. No question. I love believing that. I really do. Your experiences confirm mine and mine confirm yours and we feel our daughters here when we're talking about it. Mm. I know. Even right before I came down here to start getting the equipment ready, on the deck upstairs There's an outdoor chair and there were two little birds right up against the window sitting on the chair. I've never seen birds sitting that close to that window before and they weren't moving. They were just sitting there. And I got closer and I got closer and they weren't moving and I just had this thought. Interesting. Maybe that's Heather and McKel Yeah. Well, you know, I think they nudge us, so they nudge us to go get that piece of paper out of our purse or something, right? So they nudge us. I think they nudge animals too. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's what I think. And I think the animals give them permission too. So they nudge those birds. Yep. That's what and the birds respond. Yep. And I do believe that. I believe that as well way too many people get totally and that was today. That was right yeah, literally right before I came down. and started getting the equipment ready. I love it. and I just had that thought like so whenever I can I take pictures. I did take a picture of it. yeah fun stuff. the first day I did my very first episode and I was terrified. Was getting ready in my bathroom and the vanity light it's never done it before or since and it was flickering the whole time I was putting on my makeup. And so Those things I took as little signs like this is what I'm supposed to do. And I just you have all this grief energy, I guess. Grief energy, absolutely. And you wanna do something with it to help people and you don't know what it is, but I listen to a lot of podcasts that are helpful. And so maybe that's what I do with my energy is just do that and even just the Aha, I felt like I've never had so many aha moments in such a short period of time. maybe after my divorce I might have had a aha moment. okay, maybe some of this was my fault. but you know, you go through things in life and you have here and there, but after Child loss I felt like it was like, aha, huh, light bulb, light bulb going off. And so Well, like you said, it cracked you open. And I think that's a really a really profound way to describe what happens. Mm-hmm. Yeah. When you lose someone you love and when you lose your child. I mean especially so unexpectedly. There's a lot of a lot of love there. A lot of love. Right alongside the grief. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love thinking and I have no way to prove if this is true or not, but I like to think that McKel or your child's soul knows like, hey, this person would be perfect for you to talk to. You're gonna resonate well. So I met this other soul up here, Heather. And we're gonna figure out a way to arrange this or something and because there are just some people that are just the right person for you. Absolutely. I don't know how they do it, but I believe fully that What we know on this earth is just a teeny tiny speck of what is possible in the other realm and they're using powers that we don't even know about or understand to Yeah to make these connections happen. I have no doubt. Yeah. And to make objects appear. Yeah. you know. Yeah. We don't know what's possible when you're in the other realm. Yeah, we don't. So we just experience it as a miracle here. Mm-hmm. Yeah. How did they do that? I know I looked for my keys right there and now they're there. You know, I mean it happens. Yeah, yeah. So many stories And as some of the books I've read explain possibilities of how it can happen in the other realm. And I go, Yeah, that's cool. That makes sense. that is so cool. And I might not remember it enough to be able to repeat it or teach it, but it makes an impression on me. Absolutely. Thank you. We're gonna have to In the future set a date for all these cool spiritual Absolutely. I would absolutely love that. I will look forward to it. Okay. Yay. Yay. Thank you so much. It was