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Critical Communication with Your Team - Hard Conversations · The Spiro Podcast: Managing your Real Estate Photography & Videography Business

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Coming up on this episode of The Spiro podcast.
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to grow.
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You need employees. You can't do it all yourself.
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You're just going to kill yourself.
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Remember, you started your business a defined as a
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a commercial, profitable enterprise that works for you.
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Okay.
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you didn't start your business to get a job.
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you started your business to get away from the job.
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So if you want to do it right, you need a team around you
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and you need to be able to lead
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that teams that they can thrive so they can do it better than you.
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Welcome to the Spiro podcast.
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Managing your real estate photography and videography business
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with your hosts, Todd Kivimaki
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and Craig Magrum.
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Hi, and welcome to the Spiro podcast,
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Managing your real estate photography and videography Business.
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Spiro is a software platform designed to help you
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not just manage your day to day business, but really help you grow it and scale it
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and have success with your business as well.
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We celebrate success at Spiro, and so that's what we want to do with you.
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I'm Craig Magrum, host of the Spiro podcast.
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And along with me, each and most every week, our co-host
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and also Spiro founder and owner Todd Kivimaki.
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We're halfway through the year, Todd.
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It is crazy.
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The scary thing is, is typically the second half of the year feels like
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it goes faster.
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So it's yeah, like it'll be Christmas in two weeks.
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Yeah, something like that.
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It'll take times. Relative time is relative.
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True, True.
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Oh, awesome.
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Well, we've got a kind of a challenging topic to talk about today,
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but one we haven't.
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I don't know if we've covered this before,
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but critical to the success of your business
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and we're going to be talking about critical communication
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with your employees and contractors, which I know can.
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That's kind of broad, but we're going to dive into some specific things
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that that covers that can be
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challenging at times in dealing with other people in your organization.
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So before we get into that, though, yeah, we always like to get
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a, you know, a review or a summary on what's happening with Spiro.
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Let's pay for this podcast.
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So to our sponsors, you all can just tune out right now.
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So, so Spiro. I'll be short today.
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Spiro is our platform that we've use our at our real estate
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media business for 20 years, and it has allowed us to shoot 12,000
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plus properties per year, a team of 30 plus photographers in the field.
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And we do it all in that one system.
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So it's going to automate your life.
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It's going to bring in your editors task workflows.
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It's going to do all that and more for you.
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So if you want to find out more Spiro.media we'd love to talk to you about it.
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We'd love to give you a demo on it and show you
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how it can help you scale your business or streamline your business.
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Also, another thing
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I'd like to mention that we hear from all of you is what editor should I use?
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And we had that question for many years and we built our own
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editing company and it's the name of the company, Creo.
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I am a minority owner in the company and they have local owners and Creo
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Lavdim and Shend and they are
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great individuals, my business partners as well.
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They edit Wow's photos, a lot of Wow’s photos and they can edit yours as well.
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Now they are full, but they are taking a waiting list.
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So if you want to find out more information CreoLLC.net
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you can talk the Lavdim and find out more about what they could do for you.
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But like I mentioned, they are full.
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If you're like, Well, I'd like to, I'd like to figure out a consistent editor
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that I can count on that communicates clearly that integrates with Spiro,
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sent him an email,
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get on the waiting list and have a great conversation with them.
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They do a fantastic job.
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I just just got to comment today from a client about how our
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I'm going to say our editors, because the magic that they do is awesome.
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But the realtor said, You guys have set a very high bar in this market.
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So huge, huge compliment to their work.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Glad to hear.
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And you know, they they've worked really hard for it.
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Yeah. Awesome. Awesome.
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All right, anything else before we dive in, Todd
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I have a million things.
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I love the mention of bird flu.
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We haven't talked about our logic based video editor, but I won't.
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All right, well, we'll save it for the next episode.
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Yeah. All right.
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Okay, so let's talk communication.
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Talk communication.
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You see what I did there?
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Oh, I like. I like that. Craig,
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you don't have to lie.
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It's okay.
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- I see what you did there - before we.
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Before we dive in, I saw this T-shirt.
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I'm going to have my mother.
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My mother-in-law has this big cricket machine.
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I sell this t shirt idea.
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You know I love puns, right?
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- And everybody says - your are the pun master
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championship verified champion
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at Twin Acres campground in Ohio.
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Yeah.
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Anyway, I just thought I'd throw that in there.
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All right.
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So anyway, you know the phrase no pun intended, Todd.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm familiar.
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I saw this T-shirt that says, Intend your puns,
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you cowards and I saw that.
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I'm going to have my mother-in-law make that on a black T-shirt.
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I just.
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That shirt is me
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that.
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That is you, Craig.
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That's
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You always intend
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- your puns, don't you. - very intentional.
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Very intentional.
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Every once in a while it is unintended, but I hear it immediately like,
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Oh yeah, I'll own that one.
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All right. Okay.
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So talking about communication and and whatnot, something that we haven't
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talked a lot, if at all
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about on this podcast that relates to the the business of real estate, media
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and really any business where you are leading people
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is the subject excuse me, I'm really froggy today.
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I apologize, guys,
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is the subject of critical communication
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with your your staff and with your contractors.
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Now what what does that mean, critical communication.
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It can be something as simple as trying to set a vision as the leader,
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and it can go to the extreme of, okay, how about a middle point?
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Building a culture You have to communicate very critically
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and clearly when you're trying to build a culture in a company.
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But then it can also get into the uncomfortable area
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of critical communication with an employee or staff member or contractor
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that's not performing to the level that you need them to.
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So how do you handle communications in those awkward,
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hard situations where you have to have a hard discussion with an employee?
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So I kind of like to hit all three of those.
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If if we have time, Todd.
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and get some get some of your insight on this on critical communication.
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This is
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so communication is something that I've I've failed at for many years.
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And I'm I don't claim to have perfected it even at this stage.
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But I do think about it a lot.
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When I started bringing people into the company originally,
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I thought just because it was in my brain
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that they knew it,
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it's like, Hey, I know this, why don't you know this?
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And honestly it took me a lot more years and it showed up to figure out
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that I need to actually be clear with that, set expectations
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and communicate that out to people that you work with.
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And just as a side note, everything we talk about today
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is the same for your clients as well.
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You know,
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I know I have many conversations with you and an individual about a week ago,
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and he had some questions in his brain about why a client didn't use him again.
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And and they didn't even actually download or pay for the photos.
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And he had about three reasons why
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this client didn't use them or they're busy and things like that.
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I'm like,
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well, why don't you just call them and follow up with them and ask them?
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Yeah, and that's I some of those conversations
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are difficult to have because that's your product and I get it.
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You took pride in shooting this photography.
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You made sure that it looked
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the way it needed to and you deliver it to your client.
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That's your baby.
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And it hurts when someone doesn't like it.
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And I don't know that that was the problem.
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Maybe that client didn't even get the email.
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Or maybe they don't even know what to do with the email.
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But when we assume, then we just start making them
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a bunch of crazy stuff in our head that's honestly not true.
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Now, honestly, I was like,
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You know, I just told him I was like, You got to get out of your own truth.
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Like, is that true or is that your own truth?
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Because why live in your own truth?
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And it's super simple just to call and ask the person so all this can
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flow through to your client and should be flowing through to your clients as well.
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They're going to be confused about working with you.
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So very early on I just assumed that because it was in my head,
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it was in everybody's head.
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And I honestly, as I think back Craig, like
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there was a lot of great people that transitioned from Wow
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just because I wasn't a good leader and I wasn't up to,
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you know, setting them up, communicating what I expected
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and being clear about that, and then setting boundaries and guardrails
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and then taking a minute to say, hey, this is these are some things,
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some gaps that we've seen, and those are all difficult conversations to have.
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And as you mentioned at the beginning of this, Craig,
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like probably the most difficult is the well, pending your personality,
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the most
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difficult is telling people when they do wrong.
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And that if that's not difficult for you, then that's a nice thing.
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Also, I just want to point out to you that, you know, maybe you're more of a
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D personality and you're okay pointing out when they do wrong. for you,
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I would just say, hey, you just need to pull back a little bit
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and empathize with them a little bit or try to find empathy in why
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they're doing that, because the delivery is super important as well.
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Right.
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You said deep personality for those that maybe
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wonder what that is, there's something called the DISC profile.
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D I S C
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And each of those letters are different personality traits.
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Look, look it up.
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There's all sorts of resources out there,
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buta D is typically a very strong leader, very bold, up front, outspoken.
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So for those of you are maybe wondering, that's that's what Todd was referring to there.
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And that's maybe a good one that no done that we can talk about personality test.
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I know that this personality Enneagram is super is popular now
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they all are pretty close to giving you the same data.
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And that is something that a coach worked with me for a long time,
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understanding that, looking at it,
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knowing what I am, knowing what the employees are
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and then understanding what clients can even be for you to understand
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what's going through their brain so that you can
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connect your brain with them and you can communicate better.
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Right? Right.
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But before we dive too deep into like,
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you know, specific cases, like hard discussions with employees,
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like let let's kind of frame this in the sense of,
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okay, so if we don't have good clear communication with our
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specifically our employee, well, it could be clients,
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but employees, contractors and clients, what
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what is the business impact of that?
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Say you've hired somebody new,
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you've not done a great job of communicating well with them,
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whether it's training or feedback or whatever,
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and they decide to move on.
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What's the business impact of that?
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What's the financial impact of that?
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Or it can be huge.
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It it is for those of you that have tried to hire and are hiring right now,
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it's not the easiest thing in the world.
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It can be quite challenging to find really good people, qualified people,
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and as a growing business people that you can afford.
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I you know, I think back to
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some of the very early employees, like why did they ever say yes?
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Like like it was like like we pay nothing.
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We had no structure. We had no benefits.
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You know, like I just had a couple of bad jokes and they liked them.
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So I got lucky.
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But but it can it can be challenging.
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And you get through that process and you take the time
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and then you get excited and they get excited about your company.
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And then if you have problems with communicating
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and onboarding and training or managing or disciplining,
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then all of that is for nothing and that person transitions on.
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And yeah, the impact could be huge, not only financially
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for your company, but from just a growth standpoint,
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The financial side of things, I was just having a discussion
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with my oldest son who's in the process of looking for a job right now,
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and he's had some challenges
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and I explained to him, Bob, you got to look at the, I call him Bob,
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you've got to look at this from the employer's standpoint that
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they have to consider a number of issues when when they're hiring somebody
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because it's an investment to hire somebody.
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There is that initial training period where the employees really not productive
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and say the first two weeks, first month, first six weeks, whatever,
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because they're not doing the full scope of the job.
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They're there in a learning mode.
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You are imparting knowledge to them.
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So they're not being productive, they're not making you money.
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And in fact, you're taking your resources to invest in them.
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So they want to be very careful in who they hire
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because of that initial financial outlay when they're getting
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no benefit necessarily in the short term back from that.
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So that's why it's critically important for you as the
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the owners, the leader, to be careful about how you hire.
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But then also, you know, like you said, you know, the communication,
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the training and whatnot, I just kind of jumped in there.
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But I was just thinking about that conversation with happens.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It's a huge thing for a business and it takes a lot of time and companies
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spend a lot of money on finding people,
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hiring, onboarding and hoping that people
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get through to being productive part of the organization.
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Right
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So you were starting to dig into then, you know, say have it happen
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to have a hard conversation with an employee or a contractor
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about expectations or whatever?
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But in the scope of what we just talked about, let’s dive back into that.
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Yeah, I want I want to set up a quick scenario
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that I think will help and it really helped me so,
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at Wow, our real estate media company, we always say that the two most important
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things are communication and expectations and those go hand in hand.
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You typically communicate with people to set proper expectations
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and then you set yourself up for success and expectations
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every everybody will create them.
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So if you don't communicate and set those expectations with your clients,
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they will set them.
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So I'll just give you an example.
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We talked about it as a team today,
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the Spiro team did, and I brought it up and we found a gap.
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And I just just as a side note, I use that term strategically.
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It's in my past.
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I would have called it a problem.
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It's something that needs fixed.
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There's a lot of different phrases you could put on it.
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I had a coach that always called them gaps,
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and a gap is just a blip on the radar that you have not
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come across or you haven't thought about, and it just needs adjustment.
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Typically when you say there's a problem or something to that, just mentally,
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it just has this demeanor and especially to a team, you might be able to take it.
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Okay in your head.
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And one thing about leading a team is you you're responsible
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to make sure that the team follows and the team has this
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and you're building a culture too, and a morale comes with that.
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And if even something as small as just negative terms
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like we have somebody at wow like on an Enneagram
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she's a 6 which six thinks like
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the sky's always falling and that's not always bad.
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Sometimes that can be bad.
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There's pluses and minuses to every personality type,
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but two a personality type of a six.
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When you use the word problem, that's like red alert, like, holy cow,
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we're probably going to lose every client and we're going to go bankrupt.
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And I'm not going to have a job
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like that's what a six does if you're a six in a row Enneagram.
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And so just something as small as using a phrase of like, hey,
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we have a gap.
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It's just something we have to fill.
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I mean, it just and I know you guys are driving your next shoe
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going like, Todd, you're crazy. Like, that's just semantics.
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And for you it is.
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But for your employees, it's not.
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And I would really just urge you
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to believe me in that, because I thought the same thing.
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I was like, That's crazy.
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It's just a phrase.
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And phrases matter. Words matter.
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Like I teach my kids, you know, we're all teaching our kids this right now.
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Like, words matter. They really do.
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Remember that phrase?
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Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me.
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That is one of the most untrue statements.
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- And that is in existence. - I agreed.
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agreed.
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Yeah.
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So back.
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Okay, So thanks for letting me sidestep there.
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Let me come back to my point was we had somebody chat in yesterday,
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a Spiro user, and they wanted to know
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they had a question about a change in the system
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and it was a change somewhat pertinent to just what their business needed.
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And relatively from a development scale,
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it wouldn't be a huge amount of time.
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Now, we don't really put things in development that way,
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but the bottom line is that our our customer support person messaged
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back like, Hey, thanks for this.
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Like we can check on this with engineering and I'll let you know when I know more.
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And so in our minds from our standpoint, what that workflow is is like
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engineering is typically 3 to 4 days out to reviewing requests like this.
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Then at that point they would need to set a scope of this.
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You know, it's just how's how is this going to be carried out?
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Is there a charge?
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Because it's a specific update for a client, things like that.
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So literally, like we are
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quite a ways away from having this updated.
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And so then the client I saw in the chat comes back, I think it was 5 hours
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later and said hello and the name of the representative like,
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Hey, any update on this? You got an update form?
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And it was just like, I was like, Oh, that's that's a gap right there
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because, you know, we all want the best for the client, as we all do.
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But if we would just communicate a little bit differently
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and letting our clients know what the process is going to be,
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then they're you know, we didn't set expectations on our end.
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The expectations were set.
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They were set by the client.
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And is it fair or not? Like it doesn't work.
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We could never do that as a company, but in their mind, like I can't fault them
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because it's something they needed.
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They're like, Hey, can I have this?
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And they don't know.
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They shouldn't have to think about what goes into making that change.
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You know, I don't put that on them.
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We just don't set the expectations.
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Thus they set their own expectations
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and now it's like, okay, we need the reset expectations,
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So that is why I think setting expectations, communicating
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communicating clearly is just so important.
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It's good insight.
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And one of the most
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one of the biggest reasons that there are disagreements
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or areas of conflict or disappointment is unmet expectations.
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I learned that pretty early.
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So, yeah, making sure that you set clear expectations.
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There is the number one thing that you need to work on
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in clear communication with whether it's clients, employees or contractors.
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segueing into say, you have an employee
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that is not performing to the level that you would like them to.
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And this is something that you're like, oh, I just how can they not know this?
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Or I,
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you know, I've we've trained over this or I've told them a whole one time over it.
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Or maybe you've told them ten times over it
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and you know how to do it.
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And this might be the simplest thing in your mind.
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Like literally, this might be the simplest thing.
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And you now are to the point that you're frustrated about it.
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We've all been there. We all do it. Okay.
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And sometimes it can be silly things.
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And I think it's very important that you bring these things up.
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So the first thing that I think about is the timing of bringing this up.
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So I use an analogy and a coach use it with me is
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thinking about a ship.
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Is the hole in the ship underwater or or above water?
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If that hole is underwater, you're taking on water
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into the hall of the ship for those you that own a ship or a boat,
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if you take too much water in your boat, what happens? the thing sinks.
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Okay.
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So it's important that if you have a hole below water,
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you got to plug that sucker pretty quick immediately.
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Now, the hole might be above water
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and you might take
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on a little water as you're going through the ocean.
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You know, water
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might bounce up into the hole, but it's not going to compromise a ship.
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Yeah, you're not going to have enough water bounced up
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into the hole that it's actually going to sink the ship.
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So timing is incredibly important
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with when you do this because you can only go to a person.
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I've learned so many times immediately when it happens before,
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it just has a negative effect.
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And then they have in their mind this PTSD that every time you visit
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them, you're doing nothing
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but just complaining about the hard work that they're trying to do.
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So I fail at this many times
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and I also, at the same time have taken too much time
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to address an employee concern.
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So timing is important.
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You need to think about timing.
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The second thing is, let's say if
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the hole is below water and you need to fix this immediately,
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you need to be aware of who is around when you address this employee.
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Now, the conversation is going to be private, but how you let this employee
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know that you need to talk to them is important.
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So ideally,
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let's go through a few communication
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Say this person is working in a group setting
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and you come in to that group setting and you
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say, Hey, Craig, I need to talk to you.
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Okay. So right there,
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the boss just walked in
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and said, Hey, Craig, I need to talk to you,
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okay.
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So you've started a little ripple
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that will turn into a wave.
23:29
So people are going to assume again.
23:32
Craig's like, you know.
23:33
Craig Oh, yeah, exactly.
23:36
And it's just like I'm in the middle.
23:37
So I'm like, Okay, something must be wrong, so do not do that.
23:42
If you have something like that, you need to go up and say,
23:46
Hey, Craig, I've got a question.
23:47
Can you help me with something real quick?
23:50
Yeah, this is what I use something like that.
23:52
Hey, Craig, I need your help. Hey, Craig, I got a quick question for you.
23:55
Can I borrow you just for a minute?
23:58
That tone is totally different.
24:02
Yeah.
24:02
I'm imagining you coming to me.
24:05
Yeah, I wouldn't be nearly as nervous.
24:08
And even if it is a hard conversation, the way you've set it up
24:11
makes it a lot easier and less awkward.
24:15
I'd love that. That's good.
24:18
Yeah.
24:18
And again,
24:19
I just felt it enough for the years that I realize and the way that I did it.
24:23
Another form of communication.
24:24
Communication can be digital.
24:26
So you're going to you're going to email them, you're going to slack them,
24:29
you're going to text them.
24:31
The problem with this is if the appointment is not immediate,
24:35
say it runs over a weekend.
24:37
I'm just making this up.
24:38
It's not like I've ever done it before.
24:40
Yeah, I've done it plenty of times.
24:42
So say if the communication is over the weekend, you email someone on Friday
24:45
cause you're like, What do I need to get done this week?
24:47
Oh, yeah, I need to meet with Craig on Monday.
24:50
Hey, Craig. Hope you had a great week.
24:52
Hey, can we meet for 30 minutes at 1 p.m.
24:55
on Monday? Thanks, Todd.
24:58
Okay, so Craig says okay.
24:59
Yeah, sure.
24:59
I'd be happy to meet, you know, I'll be, you know, we'll meet.
25:04
Yeah, exactly.
25:05
Now, Craig is biting his nails the whole weekend, wondering what the heck?
25:09
What does he want it? Yeah, what does he want to talk about?
25:11
Yes, analyzing.
25:13
What did I do?
25:14
Did I say that one thing?
25:15
I said that one thing and oh, my goodness, maybe I've.
25:18
Oh, I bet it's going to be.
25:19
Oh, I bet I'm just going to lose my job.
25:21
Or I bet and then, oh, well why would he ever want.
25:23
And then there could be anger, it could be sadness, It could be like
25:27
a whole carousel of emotions, like don't do that to people.
25:30
And I was going to go camping that weekend.
25:32
Todd, thanks a lot for ruining my weekend.
25:34
Exactly. You did.
25:35
And you and you did not.
25:38
This would be year two of the pun trophy and the Dad drought trophy.
25:41
It would have just run the whole repeat.
25:43
And then the dynasty is done.
25:45
- There's no repeat - right
25:47
I've not defended my title
25:51
because you didn't frame the
25:52
the question of what you needed to talk with me about.
25:56
Yes. Yes.
25:57
Now, if your boss does that to you, say, Hey, I'd be happy to meet with you
26:01
at one is what can I prepare to make sure that I'm efficient with your time?
26:05
That's a great way to try and pry a little bit and
26:09
figure it out so you're not stressing over it.
26:11
- That's good. Yeah, - yeah, yeah. So?
26:14
So don't leave a big gap.
26:16
So schedule an appointment with them and then this meeting should be private.
26:20
Now, if this is a meeting that there's a lot like this
26:24
is a build up meeting and this is potentially leading up
26:27
to the meeting that you needing to terminate someone,
26:31
there are times when you should have another person with you.
26:35
Ideally, it's a leader of your company.
26:38
If you don't have someone in a leadership role
26:41
and you're kind of flat from a organizational perspective, meaning
26:45
you're just at the top and everyone else kind of has a role underneath you
26:48
and you don't have a hierarchy, then you could pull in,
26:54
you know, a business advisor, you could pull in someone
26:58
that you trust.
27:00
But I just something to think about.
27:02
There's times in the room
27:03
where I am in the room and I know that I need someone else
27:06
because I need another set of ears in there
27:09
and I need someone else witnessing them being a part of the conversation
27:12
that that's really wise and having a written record as well.
27:16
I would say of of conversations just what was discussed and, you know,
27:20
things like that.
27:21
Because, I mean, these days we we live in a litigious society.
27:25
I mean, people will sue over the smallest things.
27:29
So to cover yourself in your business, yeah, having someone else there
27:33
and having a written record, I would say, of
27:35
the conversation is critically important in your communication.
27:39
Yeah, that's so good, Craig.
27:40
And then after the meeting, you're going to email
27:42
this person, you're going to say, Hey, it was great to meet today,
27:44
just as we are.
27:45
And you know, if it wasn't great to meet, you don't have to say, hey, nice to
27:49
thank you for your time.
27:50
Here's what we went over.
27:51
I just want to
27:52
make sure you understand these points and this is what I expect moving forward.
27:55
That's a great tip. Craig Yeah, Yeah.
27:58
So during the conversation and this is just what works for me,
28:02
I, I'm not saying it's a perfect thing.
28:05
I like to generally try to have a little bit of small talk at the beginning.
28:09
As long as this isn't like, hey, short and sweet to the point, like, I've got it.
28:12
Like it's very imperative I have to deliver this message
28:15
and I'm setting the tone the entire time I
28:19
this is a human to human thing, like your employees
28:22
who feel a human connection to you and you vice versa.
28:26
When you feel that connection, you begin to have empathy for them
28:29
so you can understand why they did something that they did.
28:32
And then when you realized like, Oh, they really had
28:35
my best intentions in mind, and there's just these wonderful
28:38
thoughts and conversations that can happen by connecting with another human.
28:42
We were built that way.
28:44
So that is just one thing I like to start off with
28:47
and just make sure that, you know, if you can break the ice a little bit, great,
28:53
and then move in the conversation, say
28:56
this individual is say they're a photographer for you.
29:00
This is a pretty simple example.
29:02
And they had a complaint
29:06
from an agent about being rude.
29:12
So what I like to find out
29:14
is I like to always find out
29:18
how that employee thinks things are going. okay.
29:23
So I like to get their opinion first and sometimes, hey, how's it going?
29:26
Can be very, can be very broad.
29:29
So you could start to narrow down, say, hey,
29:31
I just have a couple of questions for you about the property
29:35
you shot last Tuesday for Jane at 123 Main Street.
29:39
Do you remember that property?
29:42
Okay, so if they don't remember, pull up the photos,
29:45
Get them to the point that they said, Oh, yeah, I remember this property.
29:47
Yeah, I remember shooting this property.
29:49
And then say, okay, great, awesome.
29:51
Hey, just wanted to get your opinion.
29:53
How did things go for you at that day, at that property
29:57
and then let them talk?
30:00
Okay.
30:01
I, I always think it's so important to get
30:04
the other person's opinion on how they think they're doing.
30:09
If they think they're doing a fabulous job
30:12
and you blindside them with the fact and maybe it doesn't work in this example,
30:17
but say they've messed up loading paper in the copier
30:20
the last ten times as jammed
30:23
and they think they're doing a fabulous job loading the copier.
30:28
Then there's a problem with you.
30:31
Oh, yeah, because they think everything's going great.
30:35
They've done it.
30:36
Hey, I'm doing the same way.
30:38
I've done it ten times already.
30:40
Nobody's told me I've messed up the copier.
30:42
I didn't.
30:43
I didn't know anything different when I hit print.
30:46
It prints.
30:47
And I'm just helping out by loading the copier.
30:50
Little did they know that you're the one that, unjammed the paper the last ten times?
30:55
It took you 20 minutes each time you got a paper cut on three hands.
30:59
And I know you'll have three hands, but, you know, like, you see what I'm saying?
31:03
Like, that's how when we don't communicate, that's how goofy things get.
31:07
And then you have to live it and you're like, How did that even happen?
31:10
You only have two hands. How did you get a paper cut on three hands?
31:14
You know,
31:14
like sometimes I look back at some things that like situations and I sit
31:19
and I'm just like, How did that even happen?
31:22
Like, that's such a simple thing.
31:24
And it blew up to this,
31:28
So ask them how they think.
31:30
So how do you think the point in what, Jane,
31:32
a 123 Main Street went last Tuesday and let them talk.
31:37
Now, all of you that know me, this can be difficult for me.
31:39
I've learned the trade over the years,
31:41
but when you ask someone a question, just shut your mouth.
31:45
Yeah, let them talk.
31:45
I learned this from my big brother.
31:48
I used to be an overtalker because I hate silence.
31:50
I actually love it now.
31:52
I was going to say. I wouldn’t.
31:53
I wouldn't know that from our staff meetings.
31:57
For those of you that have never sat in on a staff meeting,
32:01
Todd loves awkward silence now.
32:03
So what's the witness for this week?
32:06
And if somebody doesn't pipe in right away, we'll sit there for a little while.
32:11
I love it.
32:12
It is funny.
32:13
Like, okay, guys, what happened was, what are the wins for this week?
32:15
And everybody's going to talk. It's Friday morning.
32:17
Why are we even thinking about wins?
32:18
Like, I just want to get this Saturday and I'm like, you know, my smiley face
32:22
and I know no one's going to say anything right away.
32:24
And there's a good 30, 45 seconds of silence
32:28
and then you get all the same people. That is awkward enough.
32:30
They all speak at the same time because they just have to give in.
32:34
Right.
32:35
Can't take. can't take that silence.
32:37
You know, Todd, I did read a proverb this week.
32:40
I was reading the Bible this week, and yeah, I read a proverb that says
32:45
basically, I'm going to paraphrase it, but a loud and cheerful
32:48
greeting in the morning will be taken as a curse.
32:54
I love it, Craig.
32:55
I love how real the Bible Bible can be.
32:58
- It really can be - don't talk to me until I've had my coffee.
33:01
Yes,
33:04
Okay.
33:04
Okay, go ahead.
33:07
Okay, so
33:09
ask them and then just let them speak.
33:11
Let them speak about it.
33:12
Tell you how they think they went, how they think it went.
33:16
Let them go into if there was any problems.
33:18
If you need to nudge them, say, oh, and the homeowner was the homeowner, there
33:23
and let them speak about, Oh, yes, the homeowner was there.
33:26
We talked about her daughter.
33:27
We both went to the same high school.
33:30
Her daughter and I and realize this one thing and oh, she likes this.
33:35
And yeah, we talked for quite a while.
33:38
And so you might need to nudge them in a direction
33:40
to be more precise with the answers
33:44
that they're giving you back to pinpoint a situation.
33:48
But that's the way I would handle that situation.
33:50
I would keep asking questions.
33:52
Do you think there was any reason
33:54
why or do you think
33:58
there could have been anything going on with the homeowner?
34:00
Did she seem stressed?
34:02
Did you? how did that how did the whole appointment end?
34:05
Oh, I went back in.
34:06
I said, you know, thanks for your time.
34:09
It's great to see you.
34:10
And so just ask questions and let them talk.
34:12
And and at the same time, you're going to know what the complaint was.
34:16
So let's say you knew that the homeowner was upset
34:19
and thought the photographer was rude because they didn't say goodbye.
34:23
And they were they were quiet during the appointment.
34:27
And you know this.
34:28
So what you could say is, you know, you could ask them, like, how did the
34:32
how did the appointment end?
34:34
And everything will go okay At that point.
34:36
They might say, Oh, I just finished in the basement.
34:38
Then I left
34:39
and then you could ask them, you know, were you able to say goodbye, remember?
34:43
And hopefully you have some procedures of how
34:47
you train your photographers to end an appointment
34:49
and what they should say, that they should definitely go back in and and say goodbye.
34:53
If you don't, here's a perfect gap that you can create one.
34:57
So if your photographers are not saying goodbye
35:00
and you don't tell them that they need to say goodbye
35:02
and how to set expectations when they leave. beautiful
35:06
new a new A procedure right at the top
35:11
when leaving an
35:11
appointment, you know, finalizing a photography appointment.
35:15
Here's what you do when the agent's there, when the homeowner's there,
35:18
when no one's there.
35:20
Here's what you say.
35:20
What you do with the Key, the lock box.
35:23
How do you double check the door?
35:25
All these things.
35:26
So you got a great opportunity.
35:27
Again, semantics,
35:29
You got a great opportunity to fill that gap, to create a procedure.
35:32
And at that point you can continue to dig in and you can train how you want.
35:37
And at that point, if you don't have a system
35:40
to tell them to say goodbye, you need to blame it on the system.
35:44
Do not blame that photographer for not saying goodbye.
35:46
It's good. It's good.
35:48
You blame them for not saying goodbye because you've always said goodbye.
35:54
You're going to turn them callous towards you.
35:56
You're going to turn. They're like, Well, wait a minute.
35:57
No, I did everything that that person could be an introvert.
36:00
They could be terrified of going back in.
36:02
Maybe they just looked at all 300 dolls that your homeowner that the homeowner had
36:07
and spent 20 extra minutes and now they're late.
36:10
You know, you know, this house is Craig where you walk in, the owner's showing you
36:14
every knickknack they've ever collected and all 85 years that they've been alive.
36:18
I mean,
36:19
I love those people, but just not during the day
36:21
when I'm trying to get to my next shoot.
36:22
There was there was a house.
36:24
No joke. Now, this is not what I was shooting.
36:26
This is when my wife and I were looking for a home wall to wall
36:30
KISS memorabilia, everything KISS that you can think of.
36:35
It was sorry.
36:36
Flashback.
36:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:39
I didn't want to go back into that house.
36:42
Yeah, I'm not buying that one.
36:45
So then just to wrap up here.
36:47
So the final thing I would say is, hey, you know.
36:50
Hey, sorry, sorry, Craig.
36:52
You know, I, we, we had a homeowner call in,
36:55
and this is one point where we have a gap and we're going to learn from it.
36:58
I'm sorry, I just didn't tell you
37:00
of the proper expectations of what I want you to do when you leave an appointment.
37:05
We've learned over the years it's incredibly important just to go back in
37:08
and say to thank them for their time,
37:12
to ask them if they have any more questions for and to say goodbye.
37:16
And doing that allows them to know that you're done.
37:19
Then they can go back and they can put the house back to normal living
37:23
and they can tell the dogs to come out of the crates
37:25
and the kids that come out of the crates and things like that.
37:29
And then they can leave again because your your photography's done right.
37:34
So at that point, blame the system, don't blame the employee
37:39
and then document it like Craig mentioned.
37:42
Send them a quick email afterwards.
37:44
Hey, Craig, it was great to meet today.
37:46
Thank you so much for sharing about your appointment.
37:48
And da da da da da.
37:49
Yeah. Just to recap,
37:53
when you leave an appointment, Here's what you should do.
37:56
Here's the guide I’ve attached.
37:58
to this email, if you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them.
38:02
Thanks, Todd.
38:04
Perfect.
38:05
What could be an awkward conversation?
38:08
Actually de-escalated? Very chill.
38:11
Great training opportunity for you to your employee
38:14
or your contractor.
38:18
Yeah.
38:18
It's all how you how you frame
38:21
the discussion that needs to be had.
38:24
That's great. Yeah, that's great. Yeah.
38:26
So okay, let me then push this envelope a little bit further, Todd.
38:31
Okay.
38:32
So you've had multiple conversations
38:35
and you're now at the point where the the person
38:38
might be bringing some toxicity into the into the culture
38:43
or is just not has not performed well
38:46
and you've given them a lot of chances and it's time to part ways.
38:50
Mm hmm.
38:50
What is some practical advice on how to communicate
38:54
to that employee or contractor or whoever
38:58
when you when you have to
39:00
make the break with their their employment?
39:03
Yeah.
39:03
So, so in the cases where you have done everything you can
39:08
and you have use time to educate,
39:12
to build systems and educate about the systems you've had,
39:17
you know, some leadership time where you have tried to build them up.
39:21
You've tried to teach them and you feel as though it's just not a good fit.
39:24
And there's, you know, like you say Craig,
39:26
toxicity and just some other things from it.
39:29
There is a time there where you just need to move on.
39:32
And again, we talked about timing.
39:34
I've been bad at this over the years and it's it's never easy.
39:38
This is never easy.
39:40
You know,
39:42
if it was easy, everybody would do that.
39:44
I think I'm using that every podcast.
39:46
I just love that phrase. Like it's true.
39:48
Like when you come up against something
39:49
hard, just tell yourself, Hey, if it was easy, everybody would do it.
39:52
But I know I can do it like I know I have.
39:55
I know I possess the ability to do it.
39:57
I'm going to do it for my business
39:58
and I'm going to do it for everyone that's at the business.
40:02
Because that's one thing that in time and in the past that I had
40:07
as an air thought in my head, I thought air thought air, that's what it is.
40:12
That's an Eli ism.
40:13
Eli uses that a fart air in my head is I thought,
40:17
Well, I'm just going to keep them around and they'll be okay.
40:20
Like, it's difficult for me.
40:22
It's going to be difficult for them and they've got a family and
40:26
but no, like there comes a time there where you just need to part ways of people
40:30
and you need to do it not just for yourself,
40:34
not just for all of your employees, but for the other individual, too.
40:38
And and these cases. So I'm
40:42
there.
40:43
So I'm just going to speak from a point of how I would handle it.
40:47
Now, there are some cases where you're an employer,
40:50
you owe it to people to make sure that they have a fair shot
40:54
and they're sometimes aware you need to have an attorney
40:57
and you just need to consult with them.
40:59
There has been decisions over the years that I have made
41:02
in this case, and one in particular that I had some
41:06
ongoing dialog with my attorney and he was coaching me about
41:10
what was I thinking, what did I try, and so on and so forth.
41:14
Now Ohio, where we mainly operate in is an at will state,
41:20
maybe your state as well or in your part of the country, which means that
41:24
somebody can be terminated for any reason.
41:27
They don't there's no they don't have to be here through the end of the year.
41:32
Now there's contracts as well but it's an at will state
41:35
and that is which means that I could terminate anybody for any reason
41:40
and they would no longer have a job and Ohio wouldn't have a problem with that.
41:44
But I will tell you, who can have a problem with
41:46
that is if that employee thinks that you discriminated against them
41:49
or you did something that was not proper,
41:54
that employee can then bring charges against you.
41:57
Thus it's it's no longer employment thing.
42:00
It's a it's a suit against you that they think
42:03
that you wrongfully terminated them for a reason.
42:07
So that's a very edge case.
42:08
I'm not saying it's going to happen to you,
42:10
but I'm saying the world can be a crazy place and it could happen for you.
42:14
So there's always times where we don't know what we don't know.
42:17
That's when I call my attorney.
42:18
I say, Hey, this is what's happening. What do you think about this?
42:21
This is what I'm thinking about doing next Thursday.
42:24
Did you try this?
42:25
Did you do this?
42:25
Did you document this? Did you document that?
42:28
Have you done this?
42:30
Let's put it this perspective.
42:32
If you're thinking,
42:33
oh, I don't want to pay my lawyer charges, you know, their hourly rate,
42:37
what is it worth paying them versus what the lawsuit against
42:41
you could potentially be if you were in the wrong
42:44
spend the money on the attorney, if it's that type of situation.
42:47
Yes, for sure. For sure.
42:49
I mean, they're going to you're going to spend, you know,
42:52
a little bit of money on it.
42:54
It's probably a ten minute phone call.
42:55
So even 10 minutes,
42:56
if they make 400 bucks an hour, it's not it's not unaffordable for you.
43:01
- Yeah. Yeah. - Okay. So that conversation.
43:04
So when it needs to happen, there's many, many strategies to this and,
43:08
and this is just what we do so we don't terminate on a Friday.
43:12
I think sometimes that's like the
43:14
the everybody thinks let me do it on Friday and then we get the weekend.
43:18
I, I don't know what the logic is.
43:20
I think we either do it Tuesday or Thursday because a coach told us to.
43:24
So I can't give any more than that.
43:26
But
43:26
so so I know if Todd says, Hey, Craig, I've got I got a question for you.
43:31
And it's a Tuesday. Oh, man.
43:36
Anyway, go ahead. sorry.
43:37
Sorry.
43:37
So I don't know what the logic is behind that.
43:39
I just know that there's some study out there that says it's
43:42
not great to do it on a Friday.
43:45
And this is a point where you don't need
43:48
to justify anything in this conversation.
43:51
So these conversations are short and sweet and you need to get in your head
43:55
what you're going to say.
43:56
So, you know, Craig,
44:00
you know, today effectively is your last day
44:03
here at Wow, you know, we're sorry it doesn't work out.
44:07
You know, I'll be happy to give you some time to collect all your things.
44:11
You don't need to give a reason.
44:12
You don't need to justify.
44:13
In fact, you're just better to have one phrase of telling the person
44:17
that they're no longer going to work their and that they're just,
44:22
you know, you'll give them some time to collect their stuff.
44:25
And these are the things we need you to sign out of.
44:28
Or hopefully you have a nice switch that.
44:29
You can toggle them off an employee accounts and then that's basically done.
44:34
So the thing that and your attorney
44:37
can help you with some of that phrasing as to what you should or shouldn't say.
44:41
The problem here lies that he who speaks first typically loses.
44:45
So if you've had continuing conversations
44:48
with this employee, this is not a surprise to them.
44:52
Okay. So they know that this is coming.
44:55
They're aware of it. So,
44:58
yeah, change is the first one.
44:59
The first one talk loses. Exactly.
45:02
And so if you're talking during this conversation,
45:05
you're going to talk yourself into a hole
45:07
and they're just going to have all of that to either be mad about you again,
45:11
to talk to someone about you against or bring a suit against you.
45:14
Right.
45:15
Manipulate the conversation.
45:18
What actually happened?
45:19
Yeah, you can get messy.
45:21
Exactly. So this is short and sweet.
45:23
If they ask questions, all you have to do is say the same thing again.
45:27
I'm sorry you don't understand today's your last date.
45:31
Yada yada yada.
45:32
Say what your employer would say, what your attorney told you to say,
45:34
and then just keep saying that over and over again.
45:37
I literally there was one there was one case at Wow.
45:40
But I literally had to say almost 20 times.
45:42
I just said it again and again.
45:44
And this individual
45:46
this individual was trying to talk and sidestep and all these things.
45:49
And I knew it was coming.
45:50
It's just you have to keep saying it again and again and again.
45:53
So at that point and again at that point, that employee should not be surprised
45:57
that they're being terminated because you have had
46:00
plenty of conversations with them, plenty of documentation about them.
46:04
If that employee surprise and I would say you kind of have a problem
46:07
as being a leader, that that employee wasn't given what
46:13
really a fair shot.
46:14
And I know there's some extreme cases that that's not warranted
46:18
and I won't even go there because that's a loaded word.
46:21
But bottom line is when you terminate someone, if they're like,
46:25
Oh my goodness, I thought I was going to get employee of the month this month.
46:28
All right.
46:29
There's there's a problem there.
46:31
without going into too much detail,
46:33
how much of this do you put in your employee handbook
46:36
as far as, you know, handling
46:39
performance issues or things like that?
46:42
Do you put anything in them in the handbook?
46:45
Yeah, we do, Craig.
46:46
You know, I'll be the first to admit that I am not the most h.r.
46:50
Gifted individual.
46:51
I might actually be negative in h.r. Points,
46:56
but we have
46:57
over the years hired people that are really good at h.r.
47:00
We paid someone to write the handbook, and it does it has
47:03
it talks about reviews.
47:05
It talks about disciplinary actions.
47:08
It talks about all those courses and defines those
47:11
so that the employee knows what that looks like.
47:14
Got it. Perfect.
47:16
Smart to do it.
47:18
We can't stress enough.
47:20
Have things in writing.
47:22
Mm hmm.
47:23
It just.
47:24
It will cover your wares in a lot of cases.
47:28
It sure will.
47:28
And, you know, the first couple
47:30
didn't really hit me until I lost an employer to that.
47:34
I was like, Wow.
47:35
That person was like,
47:36
I really thought they were going to be a key part of my company.
47:40
And you realize that you just don't lead them
47:42
to the way that they needed to be led.
47:44
And you didn't set expectations and you didn't build the relationship.
47:46
And there's a whole host of things that you can have gaps in.
47:50
But, you know, you might lose the first employee and say,
47:53
this employee just
47:54
wasn't even going to be a good employee no matter how much you tried.
47:57
So you're like, Oh, you might have this callous build up about employees,
48:01
but like to grow.
48:02
You need employees. You can't do it all yourself.
48:04
You're just going to kill yourself.
48:06
Remember, you started your business a defined as a
48:09
a commercial, profitable enterprise that works for you.
48:13
Okay.
48:14
Not you didn't start your business to get a job.
48:17
you started your business to get away from the job.
48:20
So if you want to do it right, you need a team around you
48:23
and you need to be able to lead
48:24
that teams that they can thrive so they can do it better than you.
48:28
That's a great place to stop this episode, Todd.
48:33
And I want to throw out the idea of how about we do a part two
48:38
because we talked a lot about the Critical communication with individual employees.
48:43
You've just segue beautifully into talking about building
48:47
culture, building a team around you, and the importance of communicating
48:52
to that culture and communicating what that culture is.
48:54
Can we cover that in the next episode?
48:56
Yeah, that would be great.
48:58
- I look forwad to it. - Okay. Awesome.
49:01
Great material.
49:02
Never an easy topic when you have to let somebody go
49:05
or have hard conversations with with training.
49:08
But some great tips this week
49:10
from Todd on on how to how to have those conversations
49:13
and some practical things to cover yourself as well.
49:18
Todd thank you for all that insight.
49:20
Good stuff.
49:20
Yeah. And they do just as an ending note.
49:23
They do get easier. The first time.
49:25
The first time you're going to screw that conversation up early
49:28
and you're going to get out and you're going to call your coach or whoever.
49:31
You're going to talk to your wife or spouse at home.
49:33
And you're like, I just hacked this conversation off and I was terrible.
49:37
But the thing is, you'll get better the next time.
49:40
I remember the first conversations of all these that I had, I'm like,
49:43
I was stuttering over myself.
49:44
I don't even know if I was speaking a different language.
49:47
And then you do it a time or two and you think about it
49:50
and then it just gets easier.
49:52
Yeah, Good encouragement. Thank you.
49:55
Already.
49:56
Well, we got our topic for our next episode, so we will dive
49:59
into communicating culture in the next episode of Spiro.
50:02
But if you do have a question, some sort of business topic that you're
50:06
kind of curious about, you'd like to learn more about, write us, send us an email.
50:10
Write us what?
50:11
Like people you send letters anymore?
50:13
- What in the world? - We can give them
50:15
We can give them our mailing address, Craig.
50:17
That would be kind of fun, actually, to get some handwritten notes.
50:20
You know, I still send handwritten thank you to two clients.
50:23
And yeah, it works.
50:25
It does because it's unexpected these days.
50:27
Anyway, email us hello@spiro.media.
50:32
I like and laughing Anyway, even if I'm laughing at myself.
50:35
hello@spiro.media.
50:37
Drop us a line or if you're watching the YouTube version, leave
50:40
a comment in on the channel and on the episode.
50:43
Guys, we appreciate you so much listening and watching each week.
50:47
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50:50
share it with others.
50:51
Whether you hit the share button, you know, share it in a Facebook group,
50:55
whatever.
50:56
We just really appreciate that
50:57
because if we can encourage more business owners and help them develop
51:00
successful businesses, that's when we can all celebrate.
51:03
All right.
51:04
Take some time this week.
51:05
Be thankful for your blessings.
51:07
Make sure you take a breath. Have a great week.
51:09
Thank you for joining us for the Spiro podcast,
51:12
managing your real estate photography and videography business.
51:16
This is a production of Spiro and Wow video tours.
51:20
You can find out more about Spiro
51:22
is real estate, media, business management software at our website.
51:26
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