Latest / Cait & Court's Cozy Corner: Romance Readers / Let's Talk About: Let's Kiss and Tell by Joss Richard

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Let's Talk About: Let's Kiss and Tell by Joss Richard · Cait & Court's Cozy Corner: Romance Readers

• Cait: Hi. Welcome back. And guess who we have with us today? Author Joss Richard. Say hi. Joss Richard: Hi. I wasn't sure if I was allowed to say hi yet. Court: need I think we need to start telling people that at the beginning because everyone feels stuck. Like, can I say hi Cait: I know, it's so funny. Yeah. Court: and do it and we're like yes. Cait: Do I say hi too? And now I just try and do this like really quick intro. Anyway, so here's what's really fun though, is Joss was our very first author guest Court: Yes. Cait: last year in October when we like just started this on a whim for fun. And it was really fun because I just like slid into Joss's DMs. Court: Yeah Joss Richard: Love that. I love, I love a cold DM, honestly. You know? Yeah. Court: Yeah. It reads. Cait: Yeah. Court: And she And she very graciously said yes Cait: You know, be bold. Court: and came on and set the bar very high. And as you all know, we've had many since. But also her book blew up. It's Different This Time, last year. It was amazing. On the can of short reads, short list. It just went Cait: Yeah. Court: everywhere, as it rightfully should have. And now Joss has a second book, Let's Kiss and Tell. This is the art cover, but she's got the beautiful ones behind her. Which is another so good Cait: Yeah. Court: romance with extra spice, as Joss, if you remember a year ago, promised the second book would be even spicier. Cait: Promised. Yes. Joss Richard: Mm. Court: And it is. She did deliver. Cait: it is. Yeah. On that note I've Court: Yeah, do you wanna tell us what it's about? Cait: Yeah. Can you give us the synopsis? Joss Richard: My favorite question Court: Right. Joss Richard: It is about a cynical sex columnist and newswriter who don't want to be in relationships and they enter a fake relationship to help themselves professionally and personally. I feel like that's like the really short elevator pitch. Court: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Cait: That is very good quick elevator pitch and it doesn't like it gives away no spoilers. It tells you what it is. I'm like, it's a coworker fake dating romance. Court: Yeah, the but it's that yeah. The big trope Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: is the fake dating, obviously, which all of us romance Cait: Right. Yeah. Court: girlies are, we all love a fake dating, a good fake dating story, which this very much is. Cait: Yes. Joss Richard: Yes. Court: But it's fun because it dives into the writer and it's two sides of the journalist side. She's a sex columnist, sex writer, Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: and he's a very serious Joss Richard: Mm. Court: writer with two publications kind of under the same company umbrella. but they meet Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: not knowing they work under the same company umbrella or in the same world, which is a super cute meet cute Joss Richard: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I Cait: true. Court: in this book. Cait: It's a really cute meet cute. That's true. And then though Joss Richard: Thank you. Cait: it does come into play, like it's a part of the plot. It winds up being, you know, that they do work for the same publication. And I really like how you note in it, Joss, that it's you know, it's, it's corporate. So there's all those rules that come with it, you know? as far as dating in the workplace. Joss Richard: Yeah... I actually don't like a workplace romance. Cait: Yeah. Court: Fair. Joss Richard: Well, I just, I think when it's something's marketed as a workplace romance, I'm like, I don't really want to read about people in an office all day, which is not this, not this. Court: Yeah. It's not this. No. Cait: Right, which is not this is not that. No. Joss Richard: I mean, they obviously work in an office, but we spend a lot of time outside of that. But I just feel Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: like, yeah, when it was time to come up with tropes, I was like, workplace romance, I guess, yeah, like technically, but I hate, I hate marketing it as a workplace romance. Court: Yes, it is. It's not Cait: It's a little bit Court: It is the main it's part of it, but it's not where everything takes place or the main story. It's all outside of the workplace. It's Cait: Yeah. Court: just that's one of the barriers for them getting there happily ever after, is the rules around a workplace aside Cait: Yeah. Court: from many other things Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: going on with the character. Cait: Yeah. Plus it's a sexy workplace. I mean a, a news, a newspaper is, it's like old school, you know. It's like classic. Yeah. Classic rom com magazine. Joss Richard: Old school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm I gotta Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: Absolutely I had to get it in because I feel like that industry is not dying, Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: but you know what I mean? It's gonna be really dated Cait: Totally changing. Joss Richard: at some point. Court: Yes, get your Right. But also okay, Cait: Yeah. Court: So look, we open up this book, we meet Lucy basically writing reviews about vibrators and going on with the ice cream scoop with the go like that Cait: Yeah. Court: is your introduction. You are in it as soon as you open this book, you're like, okay, I know where we are and who we're with. Yes. Was that your beginning? Like was Cait: So good. You get your spice right away with that, which is so wonderful. Yeah. And also Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: that always your beginning? Joss Richard: Always. That was always the first line, the first chapter. I had different iterations where I actually at first she wasn't even a sex columnist. I was like, maybe she's a photographer and she was photographing vibrators. So it was always, it was always vibrators. Court: Hmm. Cool. Yeah. You knew you wanted the vibrators. We Cait: Yes. Court: need... Joss Richard: Absolutely. Court: I need to write these Cait: Totally. Court: off. I need some Cait: But I love that. Court: reason to write off these purchases this year. They're in Cait: Yeah. Court: my book. We're good. Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: Also, like there's something about like reading, you know, when you read these spicy romances and sex toys are involved, and then you kind of it gives you more fun ideas and you're like, oh wait. You know, I like that. I like when they're in there, making Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: it a more palatable and lovely conversation instead of like, you know, feeling, I don't know, shame around it, or like it's tacky. Like so many, so many shops like with that sell sex toys are just so tacky looking. And I always love the ones that are like really beautiful and feel like a nice sneak peek. And... Joss Richard: Yes. Yes. And that's why I wanted it to be like, like, for there's one called the Cleo. Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: And the way I explain Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: it is like, it's beautiful. It's something that like is a vibe Court: Yes. Joss Richard: and a Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: vibrator. But like, you know, like it's something you'd want to display. And I feel like sex toys now, they're really doing a good job at marketing that and making it feel like, like this is something that I should not be ashamed of buying, which is how it used to feel. And I just feel like when she's Court: Yes. Yes. Cait: Yes. Joss Richard: a sex columnist, I, I wanted to celebrate women's autonomy. I wanted to be sex positive. Cait: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: And I was like, what am I trying to hide? She's a sex columnist right off the bat. Let's talk about vibrators. Like, what are what am I trying to beat around the bush here for? Court: Yeah, that's a big part of it. I love it because I felt like I was reading the ones that you would on Goop. Like Goop has a really good review of sex toys and vibrators. Cait: Yes, yes. Court: I have read them. Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: They do it very well. And this had Cait: Yeah. Court: that feeling to it, which I loved. It's gone is the day that skeevy guy kind of like Cait was talking about in the sex shop that you feel gross or it's bachelor, bachelorette. And now it's an experience and this is that Cait: Wait, then you just don't Yeah. Court: feeling. So did you go- did you get to look into them yourself and check them out or was it just based on your own knowledge? Joss Richard: You know what? I sure did. I sure did. I, I Court: Yeah, good, good. As you should. Yeah. Joss Richard: I did my research. I was real like boots on the ground journalism for this book. Court: Perfect as I was hoping. Let reading going on the dates. Cait: Oh my gosh, I love that so much. Also, I'm like, how, how can I write off Court: Right. Cait: doing this research? Joss Richard: Maybe, maybe for the podcast, you know? Court: Yeah, you know, We'll just start doing Cait: Yeah. Court: our own advertisements for readers and wait till one wants to pay us to continue to do it. There's something in it. Cait: Actually there's an angle there. I'm taking a note. There is. Joss Richard: You know, you're on to something. Court: And so with Lucy, like obviously with June, there were certain things close to home. And I really feel like Lucy got to be she almost had confidence, not to compare 'cause they're two different books, but like confidence where June didn't and lack and she was almost like the other side of the curtain of the female, like version with sex and comfortable and love and how like her own issues with it and coming around to it. So was that, Cait: my gosh, yeah. Court: like was she living in your brain from a before it or did you kind of find her as you were exploring the world of a writer? Joss Richard: So when it came time to pitch a book two, I had a totally different idea Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: that I actually I wrote half of a different book. And by the time it was time to pitch, I was like deep into edits of It's Different Court: Right. Joss Richard: This Time. And I didn't want to write a similar character or tonally a similar story. Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: So I had June in my head for so long and I was finding That the next character I wrote was sort of similar Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: to June. So I actually actively made the decision to write a character completely opposite because I Court: Yes, you did. Joss Richard: I wanted to explore Cait: You can. Joss Richard: something different. I wanted someone that had a different perspective on love. I wanted someone that had a totally different personality. someone that was, you know, more opinionated, where I feel like June sort of like walks more quietly and she's like not really sure and she's sort of avoidant, where Lucy is very much like, I am going to tell you how I feel. These are my thoughts. I am very confident in my decisions. And, so that was all intentional. Court: Amazing. Joss Richard: And so she was sort of in my head before this book came to be. Court: Right, as like Right, as like something percolating Cait: Okay. Court: in there. How is that pressure? How was going from- cause you had a huge year? Like this is less than a year ago we talked to you. Almost like, almost exactly a year, but It's Different This Time as your first book. And here you are with your second and already like flying high in both. How has this last year been? Like that's fast in the publication world. Joss Richard: So fast. The year has been incredible. I honestly had the, the most life-changing years of my life. I think it's competent. Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: I, I can feel confident in saying that. But the process for writing Let's Kiss and Tell was so different than It's Different This Time. And I, I was so scared to have this book come out into the world. I hated it. It Court: no. Joss Richard: was, it was really, really scary. And I think because Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: if you have a book, if your first book does Cait: Hey. Joss Richard: objectively Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: well, you know, for a debut, Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: and it's, it's loved by its readers so fiercely. Like the people that have read It's Different This Time and love it, like they really do love it, which I'm so... Cait's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Court: Mm. Yeah. It's yes, it stays in your heart. It's, it's, it's there. Yes. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joss Richard: Yeah, and I wasn't expecting that. So I got edits for Let's Kiss and Tell the week that It's Different This Time came out. Court: wow. Joss Richard: So Cait: Gosh. Joss Richard: I was just Like all of these people were DMing me and I they were posting such wonderful things about It's Different This Time. And I think for that season it was one of the more popular Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: books of the year. And it was just like It's Different This Time, It's Different This Time. June and Adam, June and Adam. Like it was nonstop. And I had to go back to my hotel room because I was Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: on tour and I had to write about Lucy and Marsh, who were the complete Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: opposite of June and Adam. And it really, really got in my head because I was like, people aren't gonna like these two. They're not June and Adam. They're so messy. They're complicated. They're more sex positive. Like it was, I was so scared to have this book come out. Cait: Felt They felt more grown Court: Yeah. Cait: up, but I, I want to get to in a minute because I want to continue on this line. I remember when we spoke with you last year and you spoke about writing It's Different This Time and really just kind of doing it in a flow, and you were like, in the future, I'm gonna have more of an outline Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: and stuff. And so, did you do that with Let's Kiss and Tell? Did you have a bit more of an outline? Was it more of a kind of that process, knowing that it would be easier for you with edits? Is where I was tagging that in. Joss Richard: I did do an outline. Did I look at that outline? No. Court: No, it's you're it's not your natural way to write. You're still just like a flow it out girl. Joss Richard: Yeah. I mean, I wrote it because I w- it's the first time I ever wrote a book on a deadline. Court: Right. Joss Richard: So in a lot of ways, Let's Kiss and Tell feels Cait: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: like the first book I ever wrote because I, I had to write it. So it was a very Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: new experience. So I wrote an outline because I knew I was on a deadline, Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: but I don't know. It was really hard to keep going back to that that outline. It just it made it not fun for me. Court: Made it work. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Well that's why I wanted to ask that question because you know, and also It's Different This Time was such a success and it's such a like it's just so, because it's your unique voice, like you come at and the same thing happens in reading Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Let's Kiss and Tell and was like, I wonder if she did do it differently or if she you know, if you, if you have your style. So it sounds like you have your style, which is fantastic. And... You're writing about writers and there's a lot of deadlines and there's a lot of like, Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: you know, like Marsh's output schedule, by the way, I was like, Is this real? That's insane. Court: Like her Cait: Like five stories a day. I was like, How is that even possible? Do I Joss Richard: He... he's a machine. Well, like first off, he's like a workhorse, Court: Yeah. Yes. Joss Richard: but I did interview a lot of news writers for this. Cait: Yeah, I bet. Court: Amazing. Joss Richard: And yeah, thank you. And I, you know, I, I interviewed some that wrote for television like TV Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: news and some that wrote for news outlets like publications, digital, whatnot. And honestly, like that does sometimes feel like the output. Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: It just depends. It depends where you work, depends how senior you are, depends how fast you can. turn them out. So yeah, crazy. I could never be a newswriter. Court: Yeah, It's intense. But you did it makes it because I felt like Cait: So intense. Court: you captured that really well. And I was like, I wonder if she Cait: Right. Court: knows someone in the news but it makes sense you were interviewing them and got it. But it had that feel to it. And everything you say, like second book-itis is Joss Richard: Thank you. Court: a real thing for a lot of authors. Like the second book they really struggle with. It's that first deadline, it's the blank page. And even though you had that pressure, like as someone that as we've said many times I read so many books a year, like you did it. You really did it. Like you, it's amazing. Like it's... Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Without even It's Different This Time, it's an amazing book. It's a fantastic book. I would read it. I would read it over and over again. But these two books, like that this is your first and second book, is crazy, Joss. Like it's so good. And that you did on a deadline. No, I'm serious. Like I read so many Cait: Yeah. It's very impressive. Joss Richard: Gosh, you're too kind. Let's Court: different authors. Like, it's amazing what you've done. And in this very short time and doing it, like you should be super proud of you because you've killed it. It's so good. And as like and Canadian author that's killing it in this genre that can be oversaturated and making name like kudos to you. It's amazing. And I'm so happy for you. And this book. Joss Richard: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And also, I meant to say at the beginning of the episode, but we kind of got into it, that I am, have been looking forward to this conversation ever since it was on my calendar just because I loved chatting with the two of you last Court: And Joss Richard: time. And like you two are so good at what you do. And you just created this like wonderful space for readers. And I just want you two to know like how grateful Court: thank you. Joss Richard: I am for you and having me back and like how cool you both are. Court: Thank you. So much love for everyone. Well, we did coin the term tits and knee bath on here. You know, I think that changed the internet. I'm pretty like, you tits and knee bath. Of course. It's like what everyone took. Joss Richard: Yeah. yeah, of course. Broke the internet. Yeah. Court: I'm going. It's such a must-have. We have to get that in the next book again. Another tits and knees bath of someone. Cait: it's such a such a must have. Yeah. Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: Yeah. Cait: Right? Okay, so before we get into spoilers, I Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: really, like my pitch to someone if they haven't read this book, you know, is I think it feels like a grown-up romance, which we're gonna touch on the difference between June and Adam. And Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Cait: I love them so much from It's Different This Time. It's also a total love letter to Los Angeles. I Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Cait: mean, you really take us Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: all over the town. Even though you talk about how in reality people don't quite go all over the town the way that they do in this book. But I think, Court: Yeah. Cait: you know, if you want to take a trip to LA, read this Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: book. I think if you want to be reading a romance that follows all of the romance rules, but feels, there's some things that happen, which we're gonna get into after spoilers, where I was like, Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: these are adults in a romance book, you know? Like, oh, okay. Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: This is taking a turn that I haven't necessarily experienced Court: Yeah. Cait: before reading these. That would be my, my pitch. I think it's a really great read. Like I, I just think it's wonderful. Yeah. Joss Richard: Thank you so much. I know that- I think I know what you're talking about, about things, decisions and that happen. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Court: Yes, there are a couple that will go into Yeah. Joss Richard: yeah. Yeah. But that's so funny you say that about Los Angeles 'cause I, I have a love hate relationship with Los Angeles. I don't and... Court: I'm supposed to. Cait: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: Right. And I have people that have read this book and they're like, oh my gosh, this makes me want to go to LA and I'm like, Really? Like... Why? I don't know. I, I think yeah, I, I think I tried to romanticize it, especially the Santa Monica Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: Pier. I, let's like, let's just be real here. The last time I went to the Santa Monica Pier before writing this was like 10 years ago. And I was like, oh yeah, that's, that's a great date night. Like Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: that, that's really cute. And I went back recently to take photos with the book and I was like, this is Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: awful. This is the worst fucking place that I could ever be. Like, do not go here, anyone. Court: Yeah. Cait: I mean as a mom, like my son, my son loves the Santa Monica Pier. And we were, we used to live in Venice, so we would ride our bikes there and stuff and it was wonderful. But yeah, no, it's very... It's not that big very Court: It's like a romantic date spot. It's not Cait: touristy too. Yeah, it's not a romantic date spot. No. Court: But that's what's so great. Books romanticize Joss Richard: No. Court: places and make you want to be there. Like if I read Lynn Painter, I want to be in a garage in like Nebraska. Do I want to be in the winter in a garage in Nebraska? Cait: Yeah. Court: No. But when I'm reading the book, I'm like, yeah, I want to go and Cait: Yes. Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: be at this like hockey party there. And so you successfully Joss Richard: Yeah yeah yeah. Court: did that for LA. But the funny part is in your head, you're like, no, Cait: You do. Court: don't go there. That's not. That's not where you want to go have Joss Richard: Ha ha Cait: Yes. Court: your date night. Cait: Well, there was one part where they drove from Pasadena, I think it was that day, they drove from Pasadena Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: to Santa Monica and I was like, they already did a Joss Richard: Why? Cait: bunch of stuff in Pasadena and then they went to do more stuff in Santa Monica and I was like, nobody does that. That's not possible. But... Court: It's a big day. It's a big day. Joss Richard: Well, okay, In my mind for that specific scene, Court: Mm. Joss Richard: so they live... So she lives in West Cait: That's not good. Joss Richard: Hollywood, he lives in Mar Vista, he went to pick Cait: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: her up. I literally had to map this, and I'm like, he Cait: Right. Joss Richard: asked her, he's like, Where where do you want to go? And he gave her a bunch of options, or she gave him a bunch of options, and he's like, I want to go to Pasadena. So they go to Pasadena. They had to go back across town, and halfway through going across town, they realize that they needed to go to the Santa Monica Pier. And I think Cait: That's true. They were Court: Yeah. Cait: They were already heading to the West Side because they had to go home to the West Side. Yeah. Joss Richard: They're all Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that t- for me to justify it, it's like he likes her. Marsh is really into Lucy and he's like, Yeah, I'll spend the extra forty minutes in the car with her. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: If she wants to go to the Santa Monica Pier, I'll do it. And you only do that for someone you really like. Cait: Yeah. And when you were real. Court: It's true. Cait: It's true. Court: Right? Cait: It's true. And Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: And it's not like one of them lived in Silver Lake and they were going to Santa Court: Yeah. Cait: Monica Pier and then trying to go back to Silver. So it made it yeah, you made it make sense, but it that's a big day. Court: It is. But I that like my husband, when we were first friends and dating like Joss Richard: Big day. Court: before we had confessed our feelings and doing friends, he came to IKEA with me and helped me get something. And now that I know this man and I've known him for I've never gotten him to IKEA since. Like that has never happened. It is his nightmare. But he did it when we were first together. And I didn't even think Joss Richard: my god, so romantic. Court: anything. I'm after him like, that was such a t- like if I knew you better at that point, I would have known that was such a tell, obviously, that you were into me because you willingly came to IKEA in Toronto. And got this armoire. Cait: Yeah. Court: Yes, it was insanity. Joss Richard: In Toronto, God. Cait: Ha ha. Court: Gardner across the highway, like getting to Islington from one side. And I feel Cait: Well. Joss Richard: No, he, he was down bad. He was down bad for you. Court: like this was this is Marsh's down bad of like, okay, we'll turn around and do the drive and go. Joss Richard: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cait: I love it. Okay. So if you haven't read the book from here on, we're going into spoilers because we Court: Yeah. Cait: gotta we gotta get into them now. and if you have Court: Go read it. Yes. Cait: no. Yeah. Go read it if you haven't. You can stick around if you don't mind spoilers, but they're coming. They're coming from here on. Yeah. Court: Yeah, because it's still a great read, even if you know them. It is a romance. We have a feeling where Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: it's going. Yeah, spoiler alert, Joss Richard: Spoiler, they end up together. Cait: You know where Court: there's a happy ending in this book. But it takes a minute. Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: So, this one, Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Cait: It does. Yeah. Court: Joss, Queen of the Slow Burn. I think where did we get to in this one before penetration? Which, okay. First of all, I saw you with More Booker on your penetration rant, which I Joss Richard: Yeah. Mm-hmm. How many times can I say penetration? Like so, so many times. Court: Right. I, I had to give it to you. I loved it. And I was like, this makes so much sense. So Cait, if you didn't see it, Joss really loves everything before Cait: I didn't say. Court: penetration. And that is the as you can tell reading the book. Cait: Okay. Court: Go ahead. Joss Richard: I think Once you Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: get to penetration, I'm like, Oh, I'm out. You know, it's just, it's the, it's the buildup. It's that's what I love. You know, the minute Cait: Yeah. The build-up Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: is amazing. It's true. It's the foreplay. You gotta, you really do need Court: Gotta get that foreplay. Joss Richard: It's the foreplay. Cait: it. And it... Penetration on its own doesn't do it. Cause one of- here we are, we're in spoilers. Like when Lucy sleeps with someone else, you know, and Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: then when Marsh sleeps with someone else, which is where I was like, oh this feels like an adult romance. Like, you know, normally Joss Richard: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Cait: they don't, we don't have sex with anybody else Court: Yeah. Cait: in these books. There was nothing I wasn't like, oh this is hot. You know what I mean? I wasn't like I wasn't turned on by those scenes. They were great, but Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: I wasn't like, they weren't they didn't make it spicy, you know, for me Court: No, and they also weren't, they weren't Joss Richard: No Court: And they also weren't any the vibe. It wasn't like... It's so fascinating that, so yes, the build-up when they finally get together, when Marsh and Lucy finally sleep together, it's like 270 or something, 270 pages in, like well into it. We I checked it today because I was like, I'm Joss Richard: god, is it that long? Sorry. Court: so curious what page numbers we talked about last time. But it's great. You, you earned it to get to that page. Like you really did. We get a lot of spice Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Court: and things building up, and then when it finally happens, and then Cait: You bet. Yeah. Court: Joss, for fun, a page, like a chapter later, has Lucy sleep with Chris. So you get that build-up, you get their beautiful Cait: Yeah. Court: thing, and then she goes with Chris. But I will say, from a female's perspective, like you do do that. You self-sabotage. You go back to like seeing the two to still feel free Cait: Yeah. Court: and that you have a choice and that you're not gonna be owned to this guy or running away from your feelings. Like we do that, even when it feels gross and even yourself get a little ick. But you do it. I don't know why we Joss Richard: Mm. Court: do it to ourselves, but we do. And Lucy, like it felt true. Like that's exactly what you do. Have this life changing sex with Marsh. And then be like, and we're just gonna do this so I Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: can prove I can and I don't need that. And I'm okay. And no one owns me. Joss Richard: Yeah, there have been look, I don't read reviews. Sometimes they Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: read me, but like I try to stay away as much as possible. And I do know that a lot of people are not happy with the decisions that Lucy and Marsh made. Court: happy with marsh When he in act three breakup and he slept with her I Cait: I love Court: hated it. Not you and your writing i understood Joss Richard: yeah. Court: but as the if going and wanting I was just like ugh! I just didn't want it. Joss Richard: That's interesting. Cait: But that's what It just made it feel more real to me. Like that's what I liked about- Not more real, but just a little bit more adult. You know? I was like, I like this. This is, this is what people who are, you know, she's twenty nine, he's in his thirties, like, Court: Thirty six, yeah. Cait: yeah. Let's be honest, you know, like they're not twenty one and they're not virgins. They're not, you know, she's a the whole thing. And so I don't know. There was something about that that I found I found it to be very refreshing. Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: Thank you. Yeah, it's something that I, I actually learned that that is not something that you do in romances. Court: Well yes, the third act having Cait: No, I don't think it is. Court: him go yeah, that is not usually a general part of romances. Joss Richard: Yeah, it's It's not something you do, but it felt and the thing is like when I'm writing, I'm not trying to follow a Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: formula. I mean, I know there are beats that you have to hit for a Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: story, and I know there has to be a happy ending, but it's interesting that you were upset with Marsh because I would say that's more forgivable than Lucy Court: Yeah, I think it was when it happened, like how Joss Richard: sleeping with Chris. be Court: far along into it for me was the Joss Richard: yeah yeah yeah. Court: part. And for how for me for Marsh, again, you're the writer so you know you're in his psyche. But for Lucy, I'm like, she was, she even had just told him they were figuring it out, and I understood because I've been that girl and got it. For him and his feelings Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Court: about sex and his thing to it, and then what he had just gone through with her, and I just also wanted them back together already at that point for myself. So I was just like, another Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: I like felt it because I felt for the character. So like I felt it in my heart of like a this is a mistake and you're making a mistake and this is gonna suck. That part. Not like you Joss Richard: Yeah Yeah. Court: wrote it and I shouldn't have read it and this doesn't belong in romance. Just in my own thing for these people like this sucks. Yeah. Cait: But that's what made like the reading of it fun for me. You know, I mean, I'm also more of a litfic reader as well. So I think that might be where I'm like, ooh, yeah, we're getting like we have a little more reality, you know? Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: It yeah, it was just it was refreshing. That's and, and that's also where I, I find with, with both of your, with both of your books, but this one too, where I'm like, it's so easy to recommend to somebody, I mean to romance readers, of course, because it's a great romance book. But as somebody who's maybe not into romance books yet, I'm like, try this. Like, this is, this is gonna... Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Joss Richard: Yeah, I appreciate that. Cait: I'm like, I think you'll actually appreciate this one. It's got enough going on that you're not just gonna be like, okay, it's like a princess story. Well, not that they're princess stories, but just that there's like... Even with her, with her sex column, with her sex writing, and then with him writing the story about the thing and, and the whole debate and all the information that you put out th- in this book about that. I loved Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: it. I was like, I love having this conversation. It's like when I read the book, Margot's Got Money Troubles, and I was like, it's so good. And they made it into a great show. And I was so thrilled because I was like, good, more people are going to be thinking a little bit more critically about how we treat sex workers and how we treat somebody who, you know, makes their living on OnlyFans or whatever. Because just shoving it aside into like the shame spiral of, you know, the Patriarchy and Christianity is, it's tired. Like we've got to get past this. Joss Richard: Yeah, I, I really appreciate you saying that. And I mean, when I set out to write Let's Kiss and Tell, I like I said earlier, I wanted Lucy to be very different from Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: June. And it wasn't just the characters, I wanted the story and what I'm saying about love to be very different. Because as a romance writer, and this sort of hit me when It's Different This Time Came Out, and how deeply people love June and Adam and how Whatever I what like quotes, like people will take these quotes and they'll, they'll like really embody Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: them and it it means a lot to people. And I thought, okay, as a romance writer, my job is to put out love stories. I, I love what June and Adam have. I love a sweeping romance, your one true love that lasts, that lasts decades. Like, give me Jack and Rose from the Titanic, Court: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: give me Noah and Allie from The Notebook. But to me, that is not reality, and that is not always what love looks like. I live in Los Angeles in 2026 in a modern dating world. All of my friends are Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: single. So I Cait: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: know that how hard it is to find that kind of love. So I wanted to write a story that portrayed messiness, Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: how complicated Cait: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: love is, casual hookups, and knowing that you can move through life doing these things and sleeping with people as long as you're both okay Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: with it. And you can still find a person for you. So all of those decisions, you know, Lucy sleeping with someone else, Marsh sleeping with someone else, I just feel like that's reality. That is reality. I mean, Court: Agreed, yes, for sure. Joss Richard: for you to find someone and connect with them, that doesn't mean that they're yours forever, you know? So I wanted, Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: I, I felt like it made the most sense for their characters to make those decisions and for their character arcs. I honestly I didn't think it would become this much of a thing the fact that they sleep with other people, but it's, it's pissing people off. Court: no, like it's become like a really big thing. Joss Richard: Yeah, it's become like a really big thing. Yeah. Cait: It's good though. Yeah. Court: Good. It's you know what? You You want that though. You want it specifically. Like, I'm not saying you want people to piss your book, Cait: Good for you. Court: but you do want them to have to talk about it because that creates that and it creates these divides. Like Cait and I, if we just talked about this book and you weren't on here, we'd have a debate about this. And how does it feel? And why does it feel different? Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: And why am I more okay with the woman doing it than the man? And like that's just my own version of like romanticizing things and how I want it to be. Because Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Court: I would love it if every woman out there got to like get- have multiple and have a revenge and never do it. And it's the guys that have to like sit idly by and wait and like wait for the text to go. Like there's that part of me that loves when in books they have to like be on that end of it for a change. Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: But I never felt like it wasn't realistic. I wasn't like, oh, he wouldn't do this. It was just in there I again, because Joss Richard: Mm. Court: you wrote it so well and it is a romance, but it is a fiction romance. Like it does live in the fiction side of things. So you do go through the heartache. And it was sad girl summer this year across across the board in every book I read. Everything was Sad Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: No. Court: Girl Summer. And I felt like this was your book's version of that because it still was real. It's not Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: total fantasy. Obviously, there's fantastic things in it, but there is a grounding real life in this, which is what I Cait keeps saying which is like it's more an adult romance because it is. It's, it's not just pretending everything's okay. which some there's a place for those books, and then there's Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: a place for this that you just really get to go on this journey and you take all the scars and the hits, but then you also get the reward. And the beautiful part of it, which definitely comes in. Like it's fine they serve other people, but they're also fine. They get together. It's a happy ending. They move past it. Joss Richard: They're fine. Court: They're fine. It's not even an issue. Which is the other part I liked. I liked that you gave them that, but Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Cait: Like that. Court: you didn't make it a problem. Cait: Didn't make- That wasn't the thing. The thing was both Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: for both of them was like their own journey of emotional maturity that needed Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: to happen. You know, it wasn't about the sex, just the sex, which is where we started on this, where it's like, oh yeah, penetration is not the hot part. Court: Yeah. Cait: You know, like that's not the p- the thing. It's all the other Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: stuff. It's like the kiss is more, is more meaningful than Joss Richard: Mm. Cait: penetration. Isn't that interesting? But it's true. Court: Yeah. Cait: It's true across the board. I think it's true in real life too. Court: Like when she asks Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: him, like, oh can you go on top and just hold me for- Like the vulnerability that they let each other have in their sex and in that build up and in Joss Richard: Mm. Court: these really hot moments is what made it, I think, like really good quote unquote smut, but like really good spice because it had those true moments in it Cait: Yeah. Court: that you carried throughout everything with them. Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: And even And even though we slow burn to 270 for the penetration, we get, we get a vibrator in chapter one. So like someone like myself Court: Yeah, it's there. It's there. Cait: who doesn't like to wait too long for some like... The dirty talk! I loved it. And Court: Get the dirty talk. I loved that. The dirty talk was so good. Joss Richard: Ha ha ha. Cait: I thought to myself, like, Joss, this was a question for you. I was like, do you love dirty talk? Cause you wrote it very Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: well. It was very fun. Joss Richard: I do love Dirty Talk. I love Dirty Talk. When I'm reading smut like any spice scene, I actually like I, I need the characters to say things. If it's just like parag- Court: Yeah. It's the make or break it. Yeah. Joss Richard: Yeah, if it's paragraphs of description, I'm like, no, like I need to, I need to hear the characters like let them talk. I love that. Yeah. Court: And it can change your main male Cait: Yeah. Court: character, right? Like it can take Cait: There's something empowering about it. Court: a guy that seems kind of like Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: geeky or introverted or hasn't quite stepped into the like fantasy part of a main male character yet. And then he opens his mouth in the bedroom and then you're like, oh, oh, okay, okay, okay, I get it. I'm on board. Okay, got it. Yeah, I see you. Like got it. Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: So true. Speaking of main male characters, can we talk about the sexiness of Court: Ugh. Cait: Marsh as like journalist dude and his fashion and his body and his thing? And he's so that like ideal journalist sex symbol guy. And I Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Cait: like the, the total nerd that I am, I just really loved reading that. I was like, God, he's so hot. Court: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: In every way. Like he's really smart and he's really hot and he's very like assured and you know, I don't know. And then and then he, he also made her food, right? Like, I mean he's not like Adam, but, but still I'll take Joss Richard: Yeah, he made her like a grilled cheese. Court: Yeah. It was not like gourmet by any means, but Cait: a grilled cheese. It doesn't mat- I mean I listen, Adam is a big Adam and June are big for me, but, but like make me a grilled cheese, anything, like just somebody else make me Joss Richard: Anything. Cait: food, and it's so I'm so appreciative. I love to Joss Richard: Yes, yes. Cait: cook. I don't like being the only cook. Court: Yes. Joss Richard: Again, like we said before, like cooking someone a meal is like one of the most romantic gestures. But I also, like I didn't want Marsh, I was worried about him even making the grilled cheese because I'm like, no, that's Adam's territory. Court: Right. Joss Richard: Only Adam Cait: I yeah. Joss Richard: can make food for someone else. So I made it very basic, but for him, I felt like him knowing her coffee order and like every time he sees her, he's like bringing her an iced oat latte. I'm like, that's really, that's also really sweet. That's like his little gesture. Cait: It's the, it's the small remembrances of like it things that are important to you that are s- that are so Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: romantic, you know? Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Cait: Like we just moved recently and we only have half of our stuff and my husband made sure that he packed because he did all the packing I was working, he did he packed the like the the seasonal linens that we have, like the fall like tea clo- tea towels, Court: Yes. Cait: you know? And stuff. Joss Richard: That's so cute. Cait: And the Christmas details, like the things that just like they mean so much Court: He knew you'd need Yes. Cait: to me. And he's like, I knew you would need these. And I was like, Thank you. Joss Richard: Wow, romance is not dead. Court: No, it's those Cait: It's not dead. It was Court: little moments. Cait: the most romantic, like just knowing of like my like what a thing to have be a big deal, but it's like a big deal to me. Court: Yes, you would have been You would have been devastated had they not been there. But you wouldn't have blamed him. But him doing it made it that like, oh you car- you pay attention to me. You know what I love. Yes, that's amazing. Good job, Brad. Cait: you know? And like the fact that he's No. So sexy. So romantic. Yeah. I know, right? Joss Richard: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: So it's that kind of thing in a romance book that's just like, like it's so Court: Yeah. Marsh has that. It- Cait: That's what we read them for. You know? Yeah. Joss Richard: Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Cait: And I don't think those are unrealistic expectations. It's the small things, it's the small memories. It's not always the grand gesture thing, you know, that you need. Court: Mm-hmm. But and And that's why, like, it also Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: made sense to me why Julia, his ex, held on for him for so long and why she wanted it to be something. And Cait: Yeah. Court: then I love that you also wrote when he finally, like, when they're having their last conversation, him and his ex, and she said he says, like, you did what I wasn't brave enough to do. And like, call on that, because yes, things the way she went about it obviously wasn't ideal, not great. But There is something for women also recognize be like, this isn't enough anymore. And standing up, like even for Julia, stand up for herself and take what she wanted, not necessarily the best way, but did do that for herself and got this, is also great to see and doesn't have to be the villain of it either. Like it takes courage to break out of relationships and go after what you really want and not settle down. And I thought that was awesome that you showed it through that way. Joss Richard: Oh my gosh, thank you so much. I... Julia and Riley in It's Different This Time are two very important Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: characters to me. because they are technically the other woman, and you know, but I, I wanted to humanize them. And even though Julia can easily be painted as the villain here, as I was writing her, again, we're only seeing Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: one side of the story. We're only seeing Marsh's side of Cait: Thank you. Joss Richard: the story. And I was always thinking, you know, if, if I were to write a book about Julia, like what are all those things that Marsh did that led her to cheat on Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: him? And I tried to communicate that in a way that came from Marsh's perspective. Like he, he, you know, after they lost a child, he stopped paying attention to her, he was consumed with work. Like those, there are things that like break relationships and people. And yes, she did, she shouldn't have done what she did, but in her mind it was Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: justified. So Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: I appreciate you bringing her up in that way because I didn't want her to be like a textbook, like this is the Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: ex-girlfriend who cheated on him. You know, it's, it's very nuanced. Court: Yes. Cait: Yeah. Again, which I loved, you know, I mean, and she- very easy to put her in the villain category Court: Yeah. Cait: here, but I loved how you- but I also loved how you like drove right up to that and then steered away Court: Yeah. Cait: from it. But you drove right Joss Richard: Mm. Cait: up to like even the confrontation between Lucy and Julia, Julia in the bathroom. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: I was like, Joss Richard: Mm. Cait: yes, I love this. I love that it wasn't a love fest between the two of them right away. Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: You know, because that's not realistic. Court: No. Cait: But I also like that it wasn't like claws out because A, I don't know how many of us, as much as we might fantasize about being claws out, really are in those scenarios either, you know, like that's its own kind of like unrealistic situation. Most of us have been brought up in a certain way and we've got manners and even facing our mortal enemy, we don't slap them in the face. That's why we like to watch it in movies and TV and read about it in books. Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Cait: That's how we get to do it. But it was really nice how, you know, Lucy kind of caught herself and she went, okay And she pulled back and then, you know, and, and I like too how Julia her hurt showed, you know, the way that she kind of like sniped at Marsh and then she pulled back. Like there was everyone wasn't perfectly behaved and I like that. Court: Because emo well, because Cait: Yeah. Court: emotions are there, right? So you're still gonna have feelings about it. And Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: when you're vulnerable like Julia, it's gonna come across harsher or defensive because there's that, there's one, there's the thing of the ex that no matter who you are, we talked about this with, like about Poisoner's Daughter. But like you want your exes to be happy, you want Joss Richard: Mm. Court: them to move on, but like there's still that thing of like but I want to be the hotter one or like in a bubble that I don't have to know it exists. And like there's that part for Julia that Joss Richard: Yeah. Court: wants his life and has that, but still doesn't necessarily wants in her head Marsh to be happy, but also like wait till like I'm really good and settled, and then you can figure it out. Cait: Yeah. Court: Let's not throw it in here yet. Like, let me get Joss Richard: Ja, ja, ja, ja. Court: this for a minute. I put nine years in, and then you can have your thing. And Joss Richard: Yeah, yeah. Court: I think that's like the feeling. Cause it's hard. It is. Yeah. Joss Richard: And I think that's like human. I think that's real. Yeah. Yeah. Cait: Well, it is real. Though I loved the um... There were a couple of parallels in this book to like my own life and I was like, oh. When Brad and I met, he had just gotten out of an eight and a half year relationship. And so he was like not really looking for a relationship. Now, neither was I. I was like, No, I'm just looking to like have some fun, you know, kind of thing. Isn't that always the way it happens? Joss Richard: Yeah. Cait: But it's interesting because like Lucy's not really looking Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: for a relationship, she's just looking to like you know, write this art- these articles to keep her career moving forward. And Marsh is like, I'm not, but I gotta go to this thing. And so like the tension that was in there, I was like, oh I know how this feels. And then in the end, Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: when he was going to Thailand, so when Brad and I are dating, we broke up at one point and I booked a trip to Bali and Thailand. And he wound up Court: Yeah. Cait: following me there and like joining me. And was like, oh my God, this is weird. Court: I thought of you when I got to that I thought of you when I got to that part of the book of that. I'm like, oh wow, this is really parallel. Joss Richard: Wait, that's crazy. Also, Cait: Right? Joss Richard: Cait, before you jumped on, Court was saying how your partner is an actor and has been on Broadway. And I was like, wait, there's that parallel also with It's Different This Time. That's so Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: crazy. What do you, what do you want me to manifest for you in the third book? Cait: I know, isn't that wild? I know, just Court: I know let's see what happens with you guys having coffee. Like let's see what this Cait: yeah Yeah. Joss Richard: Yeah. Crazy. Cait: We're gonna put some details in there. There's gonna, there's gonna be a for sure tits and knees Court: Yeah. Cait: tub. Start working on getting one of those. Joss Richard: Absolutely, absolutely. Court: We'll get you a brownstone. It'll all work out. It'll just come in and find it. And how, okay, Cait: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Joss Richard: Yeah. It'll be great. Court: Okay, so because we kind of touched on the beginning of this, and you talked about it last time you were here, and refresh on, but what you wanted the spice to be. And we'll go into our spice pumpkin meter after. But how was it for you Cait: Yeah, let's go into the space. Court: like getting to decide for this one how much further you want to go or where you want to find that balance and taking it from the perspective of people that were very sex positive? Like, what was that like for you? Joss Richard: It's interesting because when I wrote this, I wasn't seeking out- because I think when we spoke, I was already in the process of writing. Court: You had already written it. Yeah, yeah. You're in editing. Joss Richard: Yeah, I've already written it. Cait: Mm. Joss Richard: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I didn't come up with I, this idea and say, okay, I'm gonna have this be more spicier, then It's Different This Time. I think it just Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: naturally happened that way because of the characters. And I mean, it's not even just sex, it's like sex on the page, like what they're talking Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: about. I feel like where they're constantly talking about sex. So I think that it was, it was interesting. I was, I was worried. I was worried because not just the spice scenes, but them interviewing women who are on OnlyFans. Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: Them talking about escorts. Like all of those things I, I was actually more worried about than the actual sex. Court: Right, yes. Joss Richard: Like the penetration. I was I was more worried about them talking about it. Yeah. Cait: You mean like how Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: You mean like how that was gonna be received or? Joss Richard: Yes, how it was gonna be received. I didn't want it to feel like I, like it was too much sex on Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: the page. I didn't want it to feel like I was trying to preach and say something about sex positivity. I didn't want people to pick up a romance book hoping to escape and then enter this world where we're talking about sex workers. I was just so worried about how it would be received Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: because, yeah. Cait: It I kind of feel like the way, especially the way that you talk about it in this book, but I feel like the more that we talk about sex work and we the more that we build respect Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: for it. Because building- sex work really, again, and you say it in the book, and it really falls on women. Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Cait: And when you know, as women like reading these books and everything and reading spicy romance books that make us feel more empowered sexually, I think taking some of the shame out of Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: sex work takes a lot of weight and shame off of every woman's shoulder. I think that we've been, we have such power because our bodies are so sexy and, and all of that. And, and I think that there's a ton of power in that. And I think that's why men have been trying to suppress it for so long. Joss Richard: Mm-hmm. Cait: And I think that it the more that we get away from being ashamed about our bodies and them being beautiful and them being something that people want to pay to see or, Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: you know, enjoy, the more we free ours- free ourselves up across the board. And so that's Joss Richard: Mm. Cait: what's nice about it in a romance book is that it just like You know, it just creates more of a conversation, a healthy sex. Court: And it's not in a way, it doesn't stay with you after either, as like as if you made this political statement either. Like it's just part of the story and going, but it wasn't like something that like pops, like, oh and she's trying to do this with it or that, which is a great way to write about it so that it's in people's psyche and talking about it, but it's not like following or popping up that way. It's more subconsciously. And you and I think Stephanie Archer also has a big sex worker book. It's not just about that, but it's like talked about this year in romance. And I just think that's awesome. And I think it's so great. For women and especially in Canada, it's legal. There's like it's different in different places. But again, giving power back to women anywhere we can, and that's definitely an area and market that the power has been taken away for a very long time. So I think it's awesome that we're supporting them now in these ways. Cait: OnlyFans gave the power back for a while Court: Yeah. Cait: and then now Joss Richard: Mm. Cait: they're like finding ways to make it seem like it's problematic. And it's like, no. Stop. Enough. Like if that's how Joss Richard: No, yeah. yeah. Court: Yeah. Cait: somebody gets to make their living and everything, then more power to them, you know? Court: Yeah. Cait: Like just there's no shame in the game. Joss Richard: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was also really nice to write about it. Like again, I had I halfway through writing this, I had to tell myself, write the book that you want to read, write the book that you know, and I think that every author always says Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: that, you know, you can't think about readers. Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: And ultimately, like I, I would want to read Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: a book like this. I would want, I think that's really cool to pick up a romance book and have these themes just casually Court: Mm-hmm. Joss Richard: talked talked about. You know, same way how it, it's cool to write a Filipino main Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: character. And, you know, it's just, it just like these are things that I didn't read in books growing up. So just to have it in there, I think is awesome. Court: Yeah. Cait: It's so great. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I mean... Court: And that's what this book sorry, go ahead, Cait. Cait: No, I just I'm curious to how that's being received. I think it's is it I, I it made the book for me. Like all the these things you were worried about, I'm like, oh this Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: is why I'm s- recommending- I can recommend it to so many different people, which is really great. Joss Richard: Thank you. I haven't seen anything about anyone bumping up against Court: No, I don't think so. Joss Richard: any of that. Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: It, it's so funny because that was the thing I was worried about most. And when I gave it to my editor, like anything that had to do with sex work, any of the interviews, any of the like those topics, nothing was ever Court: Mm. Joss Richard: touched. Like it was like no notes whatsoever. And I was like, wait, that like that was like such a relief for me. And that was sort of validating knowing like, okay, like my publisher is okay with putting this book out into the world with like these themes. Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: So yeah, that was really Court: Ugh, Joss Richard: cool. Court: That makes me so happy to hear. And I think this Cait: I love it. Court: that's also why so this book, what I would say, is it's an great one for women in their 30s, in their 40s, like older women, because it does feel more of an adult book, but it's also a great one for those 20-year-olds, for the young women that are learning about their sexuality because it's kind of a teacher in a way. I have that with a lot of young people I've worked with where they'll ask me things. They're like, oh you're just so open, or talking about sex and things that they still haven't got talk to their friends about or know about. And this is one of those books that they can almost learn from just reading about how open Lucy is about everything and Marsh and like find their own power Cait: Yeah. Court: in it. And I think it's such a great tool and gift in a romance book to have that. Like if you're learning about your own sexuality, if you're Cait: Yes. Court: experiencing it, you feel like someone's seeing you. If you're on the verge of finding out who you are, you'll find little tidbits to take for yourself. Like it's just across the board at any age, wherever you are in your experience, it's something you'll connect with in this book, which is amazing to see to read and have on the shelf. So Joss Richard: Thank you. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. Thank you. Court: all the flowers to you. which we should say for the spice. So Cait... where are we going on this one with our spice meter? A reminder, Joss, we have one pumpkin, two pumpkin, three pumpkins, sassy pumpkin, spicy pumpkin. Sexy pumpkin, yes. We'll get there also yes. Cait: Spicy pumpkin. Yeah, yeah. Joss Richard: Ha ha. It's Different This Time was. Court: You were You were saying it was a two. We put it at like somewhere it's a three. Yeah, I think we put three Cait: Two and a half three. Joss Richard: Three. Okay. Cait: This one's three and a half. This one's a three and a half, I think, for me. Court: Yeah, I put it three I put it at three and a half again after three, three and a half four is when we're like, Okay, on the bus it might get a little awkward with certain scenes. It's kinda like the yeah, like what's Joss Richard: Okay. Court: your face gonna do? Cait: Which I will say I was on the subway at a very spicy scene and I was like, oh this keeps happening to Court: Yeah. Cait: me. Like reading on the train I hit the Joss Richard: Damn it. Cait: like spot and I'm like- I pulled the phone up just a little closer. If I'm reading out out of the book a little closer, I'm like, Okay, I don't want anybody looking over my shoulder. So three and a half. Joss Richard: I will say I I don't like listening to my audiobooks. It's just like Court: Yeah. Joss Richard: it's just weird for me. Like nothing, nothing against the narrators, but Robert Hatchet, he does Marsh because it's told in you know, dual narrator. I listened to that scene in the car with him. I was with my husband and we were listening to it in the car just driving. And I actually had to turn it off because I was like, oh my God, this is... This is like really- Like I was blushing and I'm the one Cait: Yeah. Joss Richard: that wrote it, but hearing him say it, I, I was like, oh my god, this is actually like really spicy. Like I don't know why I was blushing. So yeah. Court: Well, it went like a lot of ton of detail, a lot of like take their time and her making him call it what he wants to do and her having to say like you really let them get into the fun of the dirty talk details, Cait: Yeah, yeah. Court: which and him saying like I want to take my time Joss Richard: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Court: and like... Yeah, it's those moments that will make you blush because she's blushing when hearing certain things and he is and like the excitement of it. So I would say, yeah, I think it's about I think those scenes are about three and a half. Yeah. I Joss Richard: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Three and a half. Court: think it's right in that blushworthy, blushworthy Joss Richard: Love. Court: spice when you get to it. Cait: It's Court: Oh yeah. Cait: Oh yeah. Totally and totally titillating and so fun. Court: Yes. Cait: Oh my gosh, Joss, we could talk with you forever. Joss Richard: Same. Cait: But you know, we gotta wrap this up. So thank you so much for joining us again a year later with another book. Wow, very impressive, Court: Yes. Cait: huh? Yeah, and that is it for today's episode of Cait and Court's Cozy Corner with Joss Richard. Let's Kiss and Tell. If you haven't read it, you Court: Go read it. Yeah. Cait: gotta go read it. And if you haven't read her debut novel, It's Different This Time, you gotta read that one as well. Amazing. So good. Thank you. Joss Richard: Thank you. Thank you for Thank you for having me. I love you both. Court: We love you too. Cait: We love you too. Yeah. Court: Can't wait for the third one. Caitlin Stryker: You know the drill. Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you listen to our podcast. Courtney: Thanks for tuning in to Cait and Court's Cozy Corner Romance Readers. Caitlin Stryker: Executive producers and hosts, Caitlin Stryker and Courtney Richter, Producers, Canasia Ngo and Hollie Lobosky. Original music, Cassie De Silva.