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If Beale Street Could Talk with Michael-Michelle Pratt · The Bechdel Cast

0:00
Speaker 1: On the Bechel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
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Speaker 1: women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
0:08
Speaker 1: Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
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Speaker 1: it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, and welcome to the
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Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Dorante, my name is
0:21
Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast about your favorite movies,
0:26
Speaker 1: analyzed from an intersectional feminist lens. Ever heard of it?
0:31
Speaker 1: I've heard of it. And also have you heard of
0:34
Speaker 1: the Bechtel test, because that's what we use as a
0:37
Speaker 1: jumping off point to initiate a larger discussion. A lot
0:41
Speaker 1: of drama surrounding the old Bechdel Test recently. Yeah, and uh,
0:48
Speaker 1: I was just like, you know what, just let other
0:51
Speaker 1: people enter the discourse. Well, Alison Bechdel handled handled it. Yes, yea,
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Speaker 1: And um we've been saying for six years. It's is
1:00
Speaker 1: a jumping up point for a discussion. Yeah. If anyone
1:03
Speaker 1: pays attention to the podcast, you know that we actually
1:06
Speaker 1: barely talk about the Becktel Test and sometimes we forget
1:09
Speaker 1: about it. Um, but not today, I don't think Um. No.
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Speaker 1: We we have a very very oft requested movie today.
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Speaker 1: I think we've gotten request for this movie beginning when
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Speaker 1: it came out in tween. Is that correct? So, without
1:28
Speaker 1: further ado, welcome to the if Beal Street could talk
1:31
Speaker 1: episode of the Backdel Cast. Indeed, but wait, shall we
1:35
Speaker 1: say what the Bechdel test is? Just for the sake
1:38
Speaker 1: of being thorough, we forgot to do that. Yeah, I'll
1:40
Speaker 1: say it's so fast. Here's a media metric created by
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Speaker 1: queer cartoonist Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Becktel Wallace Test,
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Speaker 1: in which our version is that two people of a
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Speaker 1: marginalized gender have to have names, they have to speak
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Speaker 1: to each other, and the conversation has to be about
1:55
Speaker 1: something other than a man. Ideally for a narratively meaningful
2:00
Speaker 1: conversation at the end happens in this movie. Tell you
2:03
Speaker 1: what happens in this movie? Yeah. So this is a
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Speaker 1: very frequently requested movie, and like all frequently requested movies,
2:11
Speaker 1: we waited multiple years for basically no reason. Uh to
2:16
Speaker 1: cover it, um, But we have an incredible guest today,
2:20
Speaker 1: a returning guest. She's a film student culture writer. She's
2:24
Speaker 1: had work published in Harper's Bazaar, among other publications. You
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Speaker 1: remember her from our episode on widows. It's Michael Michelle Pratt.
2:33
Speaker 1: Welcome back back. You're glad to be back. What area
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Speaker 1: tell us about your relationship, your history with If Beal
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Speaker 1: Street could talk. Yeah, so I thowt um in greats.
2:48
Speaker 1: I saw my mom. Um, I think like Opening Night,
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Speaker 1: probably like a like a nice sized crowd and um,
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Speaker 1: and I really loved it and so it's probably quite
3:00
Speaker 1: ached at and sm lovely Jamie, what about you? Pretty
3:08
Speaker 1: short story. I've seen the movie before. I saw it
3:12
Speaker 1: shortly after it came out. I don't think I saw
3:13
Speaker 1: it in theaters. Um, but I did see it out
3:17
Speaker 1: of theaters. It's so beautiful, it's so well done. I
3:21
Speaker 1: love Barry Jenkins, and I had not I was hoping, um,
3:27
Speaker 1: Cards on the Table. I was hoping that I would
3:29
Speaker 1: have time to read the book before we recorded today.
3:31
Speaker 1: I did not. Um, this is not a James Baldwin
3:35
Speaker 1: book that I have read. But my understanding is that
3:37
Speaker 1: the movie is a very close adaptation. But yeah, I mean,
3:42
Speaker 1: I I really enjoyed the movie when I saw it.
3:44
Speaker 1: It was lovely to revisit. Especially. I feel like because
3:48
Speaker 1: since this movie came out, I guess four years ago,
3:52
Speaker 1: so many of the actors in this movie have blown
3:55
Speaker 1: up like exponentially, and so you're like, oh my god,
3:59
Speaker 1: wait that's Teana Paris, Like just I don't know. It
4:02
Speaker 1: was fun to go back and be like, wow, everyone
4:04
Speaker 1: in this movie is the most famous person in the
4:06
Speaker 1: world now. Um, So that was a treat as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
4:10
Speaker 1: What's your history with this movie, Caitlin, Very similar to yours, Jamie.
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Speaker 1: I didn't see it in theaters, but I remember the
4:18
Speaker 1: buzz around it, buzz especially around the awards season. So
4:24
Speaker 1: I'm bechtel, how's buzz watch? We're like, what's buzzing? How
4:28
Speaker 1: can we how can we participate in the buzz? I
4:32
Speaker 1: love participating in the buzz. There's a movie I haven't
4:35
Speaker 1: seen that's being buzzed about. I feel so left out.
4:38
Speaker 1: I'm kind of full of ship. I think you actually
4:40
Speaker 1: genuinely are on. You got your finger on the pulse
4:43
Speaker 1: and you engaged with the buzz. So I'm usually a
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Speaker 1: little behind the curve. That's okay, look, we forgive you, thanks.
4:50
Speaker 1: But yeah, So I saw it um not too long
4:53
Speaker 1: after it came out, and I thought it was a
4:55
Speaker 1: very moving film and I'm excited to talk about it today.
5:00
Speaker 1: It's always funny when we give our relationships with movies
5:03
Speaker 1: that came out not too long ago. It's always quick.
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Speaker 1: It's just like yep, I saw it. I was an adult.
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Speaker 1: I saw it. Should I recap the story. Let's let's
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Speaker 1: recap the story and Michael Michelle jump in. Whenever I
5:18
Speaker 1: would be here to add I'll place a trigger warning
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Speaker 1: at the top here for such things as rape, physical abuse,
5:30
Speaker 1: and racism. The movie opens on text on the screen.
5:36
Speaker 1: It's a quote from James Baldwin that says, quote, Beal
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Speaker 1: Street is a street in New Orleans where my father,
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Speaker 1: where Lewis Armstrong and the jazz were born. Every black
5:48
Speaker 1: person in America was born on Beal Street, born in
5:51
Speaker 1: the black neighborhood of some American city, whether in Jackson, Mississippi,
5:55
Speaker 1: or in Harlem, New York. Beal Street is our legacy.
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Speaker 1: This novel deals with the possibility and the possibility the
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Speaker 1: absolute necessity to give expression to this legacy. Beale Street
6:06
Speaker 1: is allowed street. It is left to the reader to
6:09
Speaker 1: discern a meaning in the beating of the drums unquote.
6:13
Speaker 1: Then we meet Tish played by Kiki Lane and Alonso
6:19
Speaker 1: a k A. Fannie played by Stefan James. They are
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Speaker 1: a young couple in love in nineteen seventies New York City.
6:26
Speaker 1: Ever heard of it? I can I just say really quick,
6:30
Speaker 1: and I know that I don't want me to get controversial.
6:32
Speaker 1: At the beginning of the episode, I would say that
6:35
Speaker 1: New York is kind of a character in this movie.
6:37
Speaker 1: You could say that, what do we think? I think
6:39
Speaker 1: that's pretty accurate. I feel like that, Yeah, that's a
6:42
Speaker 1: good you know, I know it's never been z before,
6:46
Speaker 1: but I just felt like, you know, so, how did
6:50
Speaker 1: you got to bake new ground? Do you know you
6:52
Speaker 1: gotta say controversial you know things? You got it to
6:56
Speaker 1: shake it up? Oh okay. So we cut to Tish
7:03
Speaker 1: visiting Fannie in prison. She tells him that she's pregnant,
7:08
Speaker 1: and I feel like this movie demands more respect than
7:11
Speaker 1: to say that she's gregnant. I think we need to
7:14
Speaker 1: she's actually not. I wrote that down as well. I
7:15
Speaker 1: was like, this maybe the first movie we've covered where
7:18
Speaker 1: she's not she's not gregnant, she's simply pregnant. I'm glad
7:23
Speaker 1: we agree. Kind of rare, right, Um, So she tells
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Speaker 1: him that she's pregnant, and she says not to worry
7:32
Speaker 1: she and their families will work to get Fannie out
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Speaker 1: of prison before she gives birth. Tish then tells her
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Speaker 1: family that she is pregnant, which includes her mom Sharon
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Speaker 1: played by Regina King Legend, Icon Legend, and an Oscar
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Speaker 1: For this part she should have yes absolutely, also her
7:52
Speaker 1: dad Joseph played by Coleman Domingo, another legend who we
7:58
Speaker 1: talked about most recently in the Zola episode. I also
8:03
Speaker 1: just wanted to add a quick this performance I think
8:06
Speaker 1: is amazing, and I love Barry's depiction of the father
8:10
Speaker 1: figures and I think of him, I think of the
8:13
Speaker 1: Herschel in Moonlight. I just think it's such a He's
8:16
Speaker 1: so warm and wonderful here. I just I think it's
8:18
Speaker 1: so lovely to see. Absolutely, I can't wait to talk
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Speaker 1: more about that because it's just so nice to see
8:27
Speaker 1: that whole scene to where her family is immediately so
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Speaker 1: supportive and so kind. And I feel like we're not,
8:35
Speaker 1: as viewers were not like conditioned to see that talk
8:38
Speaker 1: go well with the family and film at all, and
8:42
Speaker 1: to see Tish be so confident that like she wants
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Speaker 1: this baby that's not a question at all, and her
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Speaker 1: family's immediately supportive. It's like, oh, that's very beautiful, because
8:53
Speaker 1: I also hadn't read the book, and so I was brasing.
8:55
Speaker 1: I was bracing myself because I've been a conditioned to
8:57
Speaker 1: watchings like this and be like, oh, they're not they're
8:59
Speaker 1: not going to accepting And then and then they and
9:01
Speaker 1: they were still reassuring of her choice. It's your choice,
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Speaker 1: and we're in we're to take her back. And I
9:06
Speaker 1: was just like, Oh, that's that's new and really wonderful. Right,
9:10
Speaker 1: this shouldn't be surprising, but it is, right, like you
9:14
Speaker 1: at least expect. I'm thinking of like other movies where
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Speaker 1: a young person is pregnant or gregnant and it's if
9:23
Speaker 1: not met with hostility, met with like passive aggression or
9:27
Speaker 1: like some sort of judgment, And that is not Tiss's
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Speaker 1: family at all. Tissu's family is the greatest. Yeah, truly.
9:35
Speaker 1: Also there is Tissue's sister, Ernestine, played by Tayana Paris,
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Speaker 1: and like we said, they are supportive and excited, but
9:43
Speaker 1: they're still apprehensive, but only because the situation is obviously
9:47
Speaker 1: not ideal, with Fannie being in prison right now, they
9:52
Speaker 1: invite Fannie's family over his mom Alice dad Frank, and
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Speaker 1: two sisters, Sheila and Adrian I think are their names,
10:01
Speaker 1: most of whom don't seem to like Tish very much.
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Speaker 1: Fanny's mom in particular, because she's super religious and doesn't
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Speaker 1: think that Tish is good enough for her son. Vastly
10:12
Speaker 1: different reaction. Yeah, they all discuss Fanny being in prison
10:17
Speaker 1: and how they need to find a good lawyer to
10:19
Speaker 1: get him out of there. We also get some flashbacks
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Speaker 1: about Tish and Fanny's past. They had grown up together
10:26
Speaker 1: as best friends. Then they eventually realized their attraction for
10:30
Speaker 1: each other and they got together romantically. We also learned
10:33
Speaker 1: that Fannie wants to be an artisanal woodworker, and we
10:38
Speaker 1: see some of his would sculptures. It's so beautiful too.
10:43
Speaker 1: It's this is a tiny thing, but it does always
10:47
Speaker 1: make me laugh when there's an artist in a movie
10:53
Speaker 1: or a book or anywhere and then you see their
10:56
Speaker 1: art and you're like, what is that there? You mean,
11:01
Speaker 1: like Channing Tatum's terrible furniture and magical Michael I was
11:07
Speaker 1: just thinking. I was like, it's like when Channing Tatum
11:10
Speaker 1: was making the ugliest thing I've ever seen. Everyone's like,
11:13
Speaker 1: we've your genius gorgeous, unbelievable, or anytime anyone does stand
11:19
Speaker 1: up in a movie and they're like genius, visionary and
11:23
Speaker 1: you're like, this is so bad. I was like, you've
11:26
Speaker 1: known stand up clearly, you've never never met a comic.
11:29
Speaker 1: Do you do you write jokes? I don't think you do.
11:31
Speaker 1: Who writes the jokes that are in a nightmare movies
11:35
Speaker 1: that like a stand up comic performs because I'm always
11:38
Speaker 1: just like I've done. I've been hired to write punch
11:41
Speaker 1: up for movie stand ups before, and it's still challenging
11:45
Speaker 1: because it's hard to write stand up for someone that
11:47
Speaker 1: isn't you. I just it's like it's just hard to
11:49
Speaker 1: make translate. Anyways. In the case of Fannie, I feel
11:52
Speaker 1: like and and Barry Jenkins is so like known for
11:55
Speaker 1: having like this amazing eye for detail that I wasn't
11:58
Speaker 1: surprised but it was neuw only just like his work
12:01
Speaker 1: is so beautiful and it's films so beautifully And Okay,
12:05
Speaker 1: I'm done. May even of Channing Tatum's table yet I
12:10
Speaker 1: think any time it is appropriate to bring it up,
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Speaker 1: we should bring up how ugly it is. So ugly
12:15
Speaker 1: it blows my mind to the point where I'm like,
12:18
Speaker 1: is this commentary and if so, on what on what? Anyway? Yeah,
12:24
Speaker 1: then we cut back to Tish breaking the news to
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Speaker 1: Fannie's family that she's pregnant. Fannie's mother does not take
12:30
Speaker 1: it well. She starts spewing hateful, uber religious rhetoric about
12:36
Speaker 1: Tish and her baby. Things escalate to shouting and violence
12:40
Speaker 1: when Fannie's dad hits his wife, and then Fannie's family
12:44
Speaker 1: storms out. We flash back to Tishe and Fannie sharing
12:50
Speaker 1: a romantic evening together. They have sex, which is Tish's
12:55
Speaker 1: first time having sex. A beautiful sex scene, by the way,
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Speaker 1: just very tasteful, beautifully shot, and one thing I loved
13:02
Speaker 1: too that it's completely shot from her perspective and she's
13:04
Speaker 1: not objectified and you're really experiencing it through her eyes,
13:06
Speaker 1: and I just thought it was beautiful. And one thing
13:09
Speaker 1: I remember reading or watching an interview and very talking
13:11
Speaker 1: about he he also that he had approved it by
13:14
Speaker 1: female colleagues of his and asked female directors their points
13:18
Speaker 1: of view, and I was just like wow, And I
13:20
Speaker 1: was like wow, look at you, like, you know, really
13:24
Speaker 1: taking taking a female protagonists to heart and really, you know,
13:28
Speaker 1: thinking about the perspective that I was just like, wow,
13:32
Speaker 1: I really yeah that that scene was so beautifully done
13:36
Speaker 1: and it felt it felt like it wasn't I think
13:39
Speaker 1: you're You're totally right, Michael Michelle that it's like the
13:40
Speaker 1: fact that we see it from her perspective makes all
13:42
Speaker 1: the difference, and it's I loved it, And there's nudity,
13:47
Speaker 1: but it's not like exploited it. It's just very tasteful, right,
13:52
Speaker 1: which has been a huge conversation on online. I was like,
13:56
Speaker 1: what is how does that word end line? Online listeners?
14:01
Speaker 1: I have covid uh, But that's been a conversation that
14:05
Speaker 1: I've I've seen happening quite a bit recently, is like
14:09
Speaker 1: the nudity in movies and how there are some film
14:12
Speaker 1: writers who are like, don't be a prude, Like if
14:15
Speaker 1: it makes sense in the narrative, like why not? And
14:18
Speaker 1: we've had that discussion and I think from different angles
14:20
Speaker 1: over the years, but on a case to case basis,
14:23
Speaker 1: I mean here it's like perfect. I don't know, it's
14:26
Speaker 1: like you just you just know when it's working and
14:28
Speaker 1: when it's exploitative based on how the cinematographer and the
14:32
Speaker 1: director are communicating. Then we learn about Mrs Victoria Rogers,
14:39
Speaker 1: who has alleged that she was raped by Fannie, which
14:45
Speaker 1: is why he's currently in jail. But the circumstances of
14:48
Speaker 1: this incident, such as where Fannie was that night, make
14:52
Speaker 1: him being the assailant of this crime impossible. But there
14:57
Speaker 1: is this cop who insists he saw Fannie run from
15:01
Speaker 1: the scene of the crime. So then Tish and her
15:05
Speaker 1: mom speak with the lawyer they've hired, Hayward. He tells
15:10
Speaker 1: them that unfortunately, Fannie's alibi isn't going to hold up
15:13
Speaker 1: very well in court because it involves a friend of
15:16
Speaker 1: Fannie's who has a criminal record. Not only that, Victoria
15:20
Speaker 1: Rogers has disappeared, possibly back to Puerto Rico, which means
15:25
Speaker 1: Tish has to put up money to pay for special
15:27
Speaker 1: investigators to find Victoria Rogers, something that she and her
15:31
Speaker 1: family can't really afford to do, so both Tish and
15:35
Speaker 1: Fannie feel pretty hopeless. We then flashback to Fannie running
15:41
Speaker 1: into his friend Daniel Carty played by Brian Tyree Henry.
15:47
Speaker 1: Another like, Oh, the performances in this movie is just
15:50
Speaker 1: It's hard to like. Regina King and Brian Tyree Henry
15:53
Speaker 1: are just I mean, everyone in this movie is unbelievable.
15:56
Speaker 1: But them and Partaket, Oh my god, Brian Tyree Henry
16:01
Speaker 1: so much. He's so good. It's also so great is
16:04
Speaker 1: that the performance is under like fifteen minutes. He's really
16:07
Speaker 1: in there for such such a limited amount of time,
16:09
Speaker 1: but that the thing is they able to do with
16:11
Speaker 1: that time is phenomenal, a testament to his talent. Yeah. Yeah,
16:16
Speaker 1: it's the scene season. I mean, they're just especially the
16:19
Speaker 1: scene at the table where they're all it's just fucking unbelievable.
16:23
Speaker 1: I will watch anything with Brian Tyree Henry in it.
16:26
Speaker 1: I know that because I watched the New Child's Play.
16:30
Speaker 1: Oh he's thinking for Chuckie and that one. Oh okay,
16:34
Speaker 1: sorry you said Child's Play, and I thought Firestarter the
16:38
Speaker 1: new fire Starters starring Zach Afron. I don't know that
16:42
Speaker 1: is I was thinking about Chuckie. I was like, hey,
16:45
Speaker 1: was that get from? And also that's interesting? Wow, Okay,
16:48
Speaker 1: so I need to watch two horror movie reboots. Um.
16:54
Speaker 1: Fire Starter only got like on Rotten Tomatoes or something.
16:58
Speaker 1: I was going to see it because Zach of Ron
17:00
Speaker 1: is in it, but it was not reverewed very well. Look,
17:04
Speaker 1: I'll say I un ironically really enjoyed Brian Tyrie Henry's
17:10
Speaker 1: Child's play. It's not he didn't direct it. He's just
17:12
Speaker 1: in it. He's looking for Chucky. It's very exciting, and
17:16
Speaker 1: that's all I have to say about that. And he's
17:19
Speaker 1: he's just like, I think, one of our one of
17:21
Speaker 1: our generation's greatest character actors. He's the fucking best, absolutely
17:26
Speaker 1: so funny. Runs into Daniel. They talk about how they
17:31
Speaker 1: struggle to find landlords who will rent to them because
17:34
Speaker 1: this country hates black people. Daniel talks about having been
17:38
Speaker 1: in prison. He was arrested for stealing a car, something
17:42
Speaker 1: he did not do. He talks about how horrible it
17:46
Speaker 1: was in prison. He's crying as he's describing this. Again,
17:50
Speaker 1: just such a beautiful performance. We cut back to the
17:54
Speaker 1: stories present. Victoria Rogers has been found. She is in
17:58
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico and to or someone in her family is
18:01
Speaker 1: going to need to go there and talk to Victoria.
18:04
Speaker 1: The date of Fanny's child is getting closer, tissues pregnancy
18:08
Speaker 1: is showing than. We get some more flashbacks of Tishe
18:12
Speaker 1: and Fannie finally finding a place to rent that a
18:16
Speaker 1: real estate agent played by Dave Franco shows them. I
18:19
Speaker 1: was like, is that Dave Franco, Hey, hey, just like, Okay,
18:23
Speaker 1: I guess it's interesting. Yeah, that that scene is also
18:28
Speaker 1: so lovely that I mean, the chemistry between Fannie and
18:32
Speaker 1: and Tish is just so beautiful, beautiful. One thing that
18:37
Speaker 1: I also really loved too is that even though the
18:39
Speaker 1: sith matter is so heavy, there is able to find
18:42
Speaker 1: this really nice balance between alternating between timelines where you're
18:45
Speaker 1: able to also feel feel the levity of them following
18:47
Speaker 1: in love, so it doesn't feel it's still soul crushing,
18:50
Speaker 1: but it's not so heavy, and so it's balanced not
18:53
Speaker 1: really nicely as you're watching the two corresponding timelines. So yeah,
18:57
Speaker 1: they're totally and that kind of switching between different tones
19:01
Speaker 1: is also like handled really well and it never feels jarring.
19:05
Speaker 1: It's just, like, like you said, a good balance for sure. Okay.
19:10
Speaker 1: So Titie and Fannie they're about to start a life together.
19:13
Speaker 1: But that night Fawannnie has a run in with the
19:18
Speaker 1: cop who will eventually claim he saw Fannie fleeing from
19:21
Speaker 1: the scene of the rape of Victoria Rogers. Later that
19:25
Speaker 1: night is the night that Titian and Fannie's baby is conceived,
19:30
Speaker 1: and then Tish's mom, Alice, arrives in Puerto Rico to
19:34
Speaker 1: talk to Victoria, but it doesn't go well. Victoria is
19:37
Speaker 1: very traumatized and then she disappears again, so the trial
19:41
Speaker 1: has to be postponed. That scene, I mean, we'll talk
19:45
Speaker 1: about that scene, but everyone's performance that but less particularly
19:50
Speaker 1: Regina King. But just uh uh that I'm very excited
19:54
Speaker 1: to talk about. I mean not excited. It's an incredibly
19:57
Speaker 1: painful scene, but adaptation wise, very interested to discuss that
20:03
Speaker 1: when when we get there, because I think that Barry
20:05
Speaker 1: Jenkins just like made so many incredible, thoughtful choices in
20:10
Speaker 1: that scene. So the trial has to be postponed. Fannie
20:16
Speaker 1: is desperate to be out of prison soon, but things
20:19
Speaker 1: again don't seem very hopeful. Meanwhile, Tish gives birth to
20:24
Speaker 1: a healthy baby, and then we cut two years later
20:28
Speaker 1: and the movie ends with Tish and their son, Fannie Jr.
20:33
Speaker 1: Who I think is like four years old by this point.
20:37
Speaker 1: They are visiting Fannie Senior, who is still in prison.
20:42
Speaker 1: He has taken a plea but is still serving time.
20:48
Speaker 1: So that is how the movie ends. Let's take a
20:52
Speaker 1: quick break and we will come back to discuss and
21:03
Speaker 1: we are back. Is there anywhere in particular we would
21:07
Speaker 1: like to start, Michael Michelle, is there anything sticking out
21:09
Speaker 1: to you? Um one thing that I was thinking about
21:13
Speaker 1: for some reason, I don't know why, but was the
21:15
Speaker 1: slap between um Funny's mom and I find that whole
21:20
Speaker 1: secrets interesting because we want to don't see them after that.
21:24
Speaker 1: And then also just the friction between his parents so interesting,
21:26
Speaker 1: and also because he's clearly not religious but his mother is,
21:29
Speaker 1: and I just I think it's so interesting. And I
21:32
Speaker 1: also remember saying in the theater and the visceral reaction
21:35
Speaker 1: everyone around me was so interesting, and so I did
21:37
Speaker 1: I find, Yeah, that's interesting. I was curious to that
21:41
Speaker 1: was of the two, like in the criticism of this movie,
21:44
Speaker 1: because I know that that definitely happens in the book
21:49
Speaker 1: and was kept in the movie. And I saw some
21:53
Speaker 1: writers that felt that it was good that it was
21:56
Speaker 1: kept in others that were like, we didn't need it. Uh,
22:00
Speaker 1: I'm curious what you both think. On one hand, I
22:04
Speaker 1: was like, I see why I guess to stay faithful,
22:07
Speaker 1: and also because of the time period. Then I was
22:08
Speaker 1: also like, this is also deeper, gultful just to watch.
22:11
Speaker 1: And I was just like hiding behind my hands watching it,
22:14
Speaker 1: and I was, I mean, I got everything leading up
22:16
Speaker 1: to it. I feel I feel like I've met women
22:18
Speaker 1: like that that are very, very religious and um, and
22:21
Speaker 1: so that felt realistic. But just the lap I was like,
22:24
Speaker 1: I was like, that's kind of been a captivaby, especially
22:27
Speaker 1: because we see Fannie's dad again hanging out with Titia's dad,
22:33
Speaker 1: and no one seems to be challenging that he's abusive
22:37
Speaker 1: to his spouse. I don't know. I don't think it's
22:40
Speaker 1: like portrayed in the movie as if he is right
22:43
Speaker 1: to do it, and it feels like it's the way
22:46
Speaker 1: it's framed in the movie, which based on what and
22:48
Speaker 1: again I have not read the book, so I can't
22:51
Speaker 1: speak to this personally, but based on criticism I was
22:53
Speaker 1: reading in the book, it's kind of presented more matter
22:56
Speaker 1: of factly, because just generally in the seventy domestic abuse
23:01
Speaker 1: was treated more matter of factly, particularly by male writers.
23:05
Speaker 1: But in the movie, if it feels like it's almost
23:08
Speaker 1: used as this character who we've only seen be horrible
23:13
Speaker 1: to Tish, who we love, and then something horrible happens
23:17
Speaker 1: to her and it introduces a shade of gray to
23:21
Speaker 1: her character. But then it's like it never comes back,
23:24
Speaker 1: it's never addressed, and the perpetrator of that violence appears
23:28
Speaker 1: again and it's as if nothing happened. And if that's
23:33
Speaker 1: in that case, yeah, it just didn't I don't know
23:35
Speaker 1: if there if that was aiming at commentary, it didn't
23:38
Speaker 1: super hit for me, and it just felt like we
23:41
Speaker 1: saw domestic violence. One thing I was also thinking about
23:45
Speaker 1: was I was thinking about James Balden. I know that
23:47
Speaker 1: and a lot of its writing. Like I remember there
23:49
Speaker 1: was this one essay that I read. I think it's
23:51
Speaker 1: like the fire next time I think it's called and
23:52
Speaker 1: he's talking about kind of like I mean, I know
23:55
Speaker 1: that he was like an assistant passed down with time.
23:56
Speaker 1: He was of religious and then he kind of made
23:58
Speaker 1: away and kind of felt like that religion kind of
24:01
Speaker 1: withholding like people back and that and that and that,
24:04
Speaker 1: Um that was like a hindrance. And then he kind
24:07
Speaker 1: of felt like and like getting go away from religion
24:09
Speaker 1: was kind of freeing for him. Until I was wondering
24:11
Speaker 1: if for him as a writer, um, having Fannie's mom
24:16
Speaker 1: be the brunt of that and then never seen again
24:18
Speaker 1: was his own commentary unreligion kind of matter of fact, Lee, Yeah, yeah,
24:24
Speaker 1: that's possible. I feel like the movie presents two reactions
24:29
Speaker 1: to Fannie's mom's behavior, and it feels to me like
24:34
Speaker 1: the reaction of her being struck violently and abused is like,
24:39
Speaker 1: that's not how we do it. But Tisha's reaction when
24:44
Speaker 1: she says, just like that was the most terrible thing
24:46
Speaker 1: anyone has ever said to me, and then she gets
24:49
Speaker 1: called a dried up yellow cunt, which did make me
24:54
Speaker 1: giggle a little bit. Ship You're just like, oh my
24:58
Speaker 1: word language. Yeah, sorry everyone that you heard me say that.
25:05
Speaker 1: But um, I was, I mean I was. I know
25:08
Speaker 1: you were quoting the movie, but I'm wondering if the
25:12
Speaker 1: movie is saying Tissue's response is the way to handle
25:18
Speaker 1: this pious, toxic behavior from Fannie's mom. I don't know. Yeah,
25:24
Speaker 1: I just feel like it could have been maybe taken
25:26
Speaker 1: out and we could have just had like a verbal
25:29
Speaker 1: kind of I agree that you could have gotten the
25:34
Speaker 1: same effect, And I do think it's also like I'm
25:38
Speaker 1: not like ragging on James Baldwin here. It's like, I
25:40
Speaker 1: feel like the effect is far more startling when you
25:44
Speaker 1: see it on screen and in a movie where other
25:48
Speaker 1: where Barry Jenkins chose to adjust a couple of moments
25:53
Speaker 1: and scenes for eighteen audiences. I was a little confused
25:58
Speaker 1: why that. I mean, I would be interest did in here.
26:00
Speaker 1: I couldn't find a quote about it on his reasoning
26:03
Speaker 1: behind that choice. But I mean in general, it's like, yeah,
26:06
Speaker 1: someone could have said something just as awful back to her,
26:10
Speaker 1: and something cutting and cruel that could have really hurt
26:13
Speaker 1: her and produced the same effect. I wanted to talk
26:19
Speaker 1: about broadly how this movie and its representation of black
26:26
Speaker 1: characters and a black family, we see things that we
26:29
Speaker 1: don't normally get to see on screen because so often
26:35
Speaker 1: what we're seeing is harmful stereotypes and tropes usually perpetuated
26:40
Speaker 1: by white filmmakers. For example, we see a black nuclear family,
26:45
Speaker 1: particularly titious family who are warm, loving, unconditionally supportive of
26:51
Speaker 1: each other. We see a black mother and black father
26:55
Speaker 1: being tender and supportive of their daughter. Too often we see,
26:59
Speaker 1: like you know, a broken home where the parents are
27:03
Speaker 1: abusive to each other and or to their children. Maybe
27:07
Speaker 1: there's no father in the picture at all, and there's
27:10
Speaker 1: never any acknowledgement of why fathers and children are separated.
27:14
Speaker 1: So like the carcerol state is not addressed. It's made
27:17
Speaker 1: to seem like a choice as opposed to something that
27:21
Speaker 1: is like cooked directly into white supremacy exactly. Um. So
27:27
Speaker 1: we see again, just like this warm, supportive love in
27:31
Speaker 1: this family. We also see this warm, gentle, romantic love
27:37
Speaker 1: between two young black people in Tishe and Fannie. We
27:42
Speaker 1: see men opening up to each other and talking about
27:46
Speaker 1: their feelings and their trauma. In that scene between Fannie
27:49
Speaker 1: and Daniel. It's beautiful and you and you see many
27:56
Speaker 1: complicated and loving relationships between black women as well. I
28:00
Speaker 1: mean you get even though again it's like Tanna Paris
28:04
Speaker 1: is not in this movie very much, but anytime you
28:08
Speaker 1: see her and Tish together, it is supportive as is kind.
28:13
Speaker 1: You know that Tish's mother would do anything for her
28:16
Speaker 1: because you see it and everyone, I mean yeah, even
28:20
Speaker 1: though because this is not like a particularly long movie,
28:23
Speaker 1: I feel like the like economy of everything that Barry
28:26
Speaker 1: Jenkins is doing is so like efficient and cool, and
28:30
Speaker 1: the actors are doing this incredible job because even when
28:32
Speaker 1: you don't see two characters together very frequently, you still
28:35
Speaker 1: understand what they're bond is for the most part, And
28:39
Speaker 1: I think one thing that's really great is he is
28:41
Speaker 1: he really hones in on the on the theme of
28:43
Speaker 1: community and and and I think because he's a black
28:45
Speaker 1: clam maker and being immersed in black community interesting that
28:49
Speaker 1: that's how we're able to get by and then it's
28:52
Speaker 1: a pitotal to the core of being able to survive.
28:55
Speaker 1: My fantasy is as having community and when you're you're
28:59
Speaker 1: maybe not a blacklam give an understand and that and
29:01
Speaker 1: and I think that's very that comes through very clearly.
29:06
Speaker 1: Uh for sure. There's a number of kind of voiceover
29:10
Speaker 1: monologues from Tish to that effect, which I think most
29:15
Speaker 1: of them are pulled pretty closely from the book. This
29:19
Speaker 1: is I just didn't know this. This is also James
29:22
Speaker 1: Baldwin's only novel that's narrated by a female character. Interested
29:29
Speaker 1: yep um because a lot of this movie is pretty
29:32
Speaker 1: direct commentary on the legal system, cops, incarceration, the inherent
29:39
Speaker 1: racism within those institutions. And she's talking about how like
29:45
Speaker 1: the odds are just so stacked against them, and the
29:49
Speaker 1: fact that this is a movie about Fannie getting arrested
29:52
Speaker 1: and incarcerated for a crime he did not commit because
29:56
Speaker 1: a racist cop who works within a racist institution and
30:00
Speaker 1: who had specifically targeted and established a vendetta against Fannie,
30:06
Speaker 1: puts him in the police lineup for again a crime
30:09
Speaker 1: he could not have committed. And there's all this commentary
30:13
Speaker 1: on how you know, it's up to the accused to
30:18
Speaker 1: prove and pay for proving the irregularity and improbability of
30:23
Speaker 1: this sequence of events, and such a big hurdle for
30:27
Speaker 1: the families is like trying to find good legal representation
30:32
Speaker 1: and finding a lawyer who will care enough about their case,
30:38
Speaker 1: and how that's a huge struggle. And even when they
30:41
Speaker 1: do find a lawyer who cares about their case, it's
30:44
Speaker 1: still like a small journey for that character to realize
30:48
Speaker 1: exactly how stacked the odds are against Fannie. Which that
30:53
Speaker 1: was just like another that character is barely on screen
30:56
Speaker 1: and it's not like we need him on screen very long,
30:58
Speaker 1: but it's like you do get at that moment of
31:01
Speaker 1: him and it's like, oh my god, dude, you're a lawyer,
31:04
Speaker 1: you should know this, um. But like that's you know,
31:08
Speaker 1: very based in reality of like a white lawyer probably
31:13
Speaker 1: wasn't thinking about that at all, like then and often
31:17
Speaker 1: now so and and then also like I don't know
31:20
Speaker 1: just how much this story naturally references issues that you
31:25
Speaker 1: don't really see spoken about in movies or really much
31:29
Speaker 1: of anywhere. I also thought it was like really moving
31:33
Speaker 1: and efficient and cool how they addressed racism within real
31:37
Speaker 1: estate too, and how that's like explicitly addressed in the
31:43
Speaker 1: text and also still like moves the story forward, and
31:46
Speaker 1: that seems lovely this movie just it's accomplishing so much
31:52
Speaker 1: and providing so much poignant commentary on racism, but also
31:58
Speaker 1: like having these moments of levity, like you said, Michael Michelle,
32:01
Speaker 1: and having so much of the movie be about black
32:06
Speaker 1: love and black community. And I want to share a
32:11
Speaker 1: quote from Barry Jenkins from an interview the cast and
32:15
Speaker 1: crew of this film did at the Toronto International Film
32:20
Speaker 1: Festival where this movie premiered, and Barry said that the
32:26
Speaker 1: film is quote a very pure story about black love,
32:32
Speaker 1: black life, black family, black community that's rooted in reality.
32:37
Speaker 1: To be black and conscious is to know that at
32:40
Speaker 1: any moment, your joy can be taken away from you.
32:43
Speaker 1: And I think this movie rides on that wavelength where
32:46
Speaker 1: you're going to experience great joyous highs and at the
32:49
Speaker 1: turn of a dime, the very very real lows of
32:54
Speaker 1: being black in America. I was even thinking about when
32:57
Speaker 1: they're linking for department with Dave frank Go and and
33:00
Speaker 1: and Fannie's having him helped like carry the pretend fridge
33:03
Speaker 1: and and and that kind of and even after like
33:06
Speaker 1: talking about their harship of the real estate, but there's
33:08
Speaker 1: still that sweet moment of them like looking for the
33:11
Speaker 1: apartment and all that. Then I was also thinking about, like,
33:14
Speaker 1: I don't know if you all have seen Selvie's Love
33:16
Speaker 1: looked at the Thompson and um Namdi asom Law and
33:20
Speaker 1: all or heard of it. They're not really similar at all,
33:22
Speaker 1: but it um when they look about that movie, it's
33:25
Speaker 1: kind of talking about like yes, like, yes, there are
33:27
Speaker 1: issues being black and it's hard in America, but but
33:30
Speaker 1: they're but there's still like everyday life happens inside of
33:34
Speaker 1: that struggle and and like and we're still leakding doing
33:37
Speaker 1: normal things, which allows it to avoid the like tragedy
33:41
Speaker 1: porn exactly kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely, And I like that.
33:45
Speaker 1: I mean, we've we've touched on this a little bit
33:48
Speaker 1: when we were talking about Fannie's family, but you you
33:50
Speaker 1: get like not just this movie that centers black love
33:53
Speaker 1: and black community, like everyone is coming from a different place,
33:58
Speaker 1: like through Fannie's um and through his family, you they
34:02
Speaker 1: have like a totally different perspective on life that seems
34:06
Speaker 1: like maybe not as healthy for their kids. But it's
34:09
Speaker 1: like there is a variety in the in people that
34:12
Speaker 1: you're seeing. And again, it's just like amazing how many
34:15
Speaker 1: characters are in this movie while you still know exactly
34:18
Speaker 1: who they are and like there. I mean, it's just
34:21
Speaker 1: it's very special. I really like it. And I was also,
34:25
Speaker 1: um not to I mean, I feel like we talked,
34:28
Speaker 1: we talked about this sometimes where we like hand it
34:32
Speaker 1: to uh Man for like writing a female character that
34:38
Speaker 1: like isn't horrible, So not to do that. However, I
34:43
Speaker 1: do think that it is worth mentioning uh that this is,
34:48
Speaker 1: you know, a female protagonist adapted from a male writer
34:51
Speaker 1: by a male writer, and it works because she's being
34:55
Speaker 1: treated thoughtfully and like she's a protagonist. Like yeah, I
35:01
Speaker 1: have a quote from Barry Jenkins here from an NPR
35:04
Speaker 1: ever Heard of It interview um where he was asked
35:10
Speaker 1: to just sort of talk about Tish a little bit,
35:12
Speaker 1: And the way that the headline is framed is on
35:16
Speaker 1: why a character like Tish, a woman both soft and tough,
35:18
Speaker 1: may seem unusual. Um, And Barry Jenkins says, I think
35:23
Speaker 1: the part of why the character may seem unusual, you know,
35:26
Speaker 1: I can't say this the first character who has exhibited
35:28
Speaker 1: those qualities. That might be the first character who looks
35:32
Speaker 1: like key Key Lane and who walks on screen with
35:34
Speaker 1: her natural hair. But I think what I see in
35:36
Speaker 1: that is authors like James Baldwin have been writing these
35:39
Speaker 1: characters for decades, you know, but authors like James Baldwin
35:42
Speaker 1: haven't been adapted into feature films as often as their peers.
35:45
Speaker 1: The characters exist, and it's incumbent upon people like me
35:48
Speaker 1: to bring them to the screen. So again, I love
35:52
Speaker 1: it great, and it's like there there is there are
35:56
Speaker 1: so many great female characters in this story. Which should
36:01
Speaker 1: we get to the assault talk? Yes, might as well.
36:10
Speaker 1: All right, well this isn't gonna feel good, gang, but
36:14
Speaker 1: here we are. We'll take a break afterward and recover, okay. Um.
36:20
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean I just wanted to open up
36:22
Speaker 1: that discussion starting with a little more from Barry Jenkins,
36:27
Speaker 1: because this is it sounds like an adaptation, not even
36:30
Speaker 1: like change, but just focal adjustment that sounds like it
36:35
Speaker 1: was really thoughtful and effective. Again, I have not read
36:39
Speaker 1: the book, based on what I have read around this movie. Originally,
36:45
Speaker 1: Victoria is presented not as a villain, but as more
36:49
Speaker 1: of an antagonist than she's presented as in the movie.
36:53
Speaker 1: Interesting because her I mean, she picks uh fanni out
36:58
Speaker 1: of a lineup and then it's difficult to get in
37:01
Speaker 1: contact with her, And so I think that in the
37:04
Speaker 1: book it is framed a little more like it is
37:07
Speaker 1: more her fault that this trial is delayed so much, um,
37:12
Speaker 1: in addition to obviously the fucking cop who set him up.
37:16
Speaker 1: But my understanding is it's presented a little less sympathetically
37:21
Speaker 1: towards Victoria, which Barry Jenkins I think really really thoughtfully
37:28
Speaker 1: shows incredible empathy for this character while not really changing
37:32
Speaker 1: that much about the text. It's all about, like the
37:35
Speaker 1: performance between Emily Rios and Regina King. So I wanted
37:40
Speaker 1: to share a quipe with him about his thought process
37:44
Speaker 1: on portraying that. So same NPR interview. So sorry, uh,
37:54
Speaker 1: look our tax dollars. I think maybe I actually don't know.
37:58
Speaker 1: Um okay, he says uh when asked how he chose
38:04
Speaker 1: to depict the character of Victoria. He says, quote, I
38:07
Speaker 1: think the moment that Mr Baldwin published the novel is
38:10
Speaker 1: a very different moment than the moment the film is
38:12
Speaker 1: arriving in. I think that in the early nineteen seventies,
38:14
Speaker 1: the semantics, the complications of what Mr Baldwin was depicting,
38:18
Speaker 1: we're maybe more round it, and I think they're much
38:21
Speaker 1: sharper now. In context. Fannie is not falsely accused of anything.
38:26
Speaker 1: He's chosen out of a police lineup. He's placed in
38:29
Speaker 1: a police lineup by an officer who very clearly has
38:32
Speaker 1: a very racist bent. And so for me, when you
38:34
Speaker 1: unpack it that way, it was clear that Victoria Rogers
38:37
Speaker 1: was not the antagonist. I think all these things are
38:40
Speaker 1: set up, all these characters are set up in a
38:42
Speaker 1: way that you do empathize with all of them. And
38:44
Speaker 1: so for me, it wasn't a challenge at all to
38:46
Speaker 1: understand that she had just as much a right to
38:48
Speaker 1: speak as Regina King, and she had just as much
38:52
Speaker 1: a right to her humanity as Fannie. Yeah. I think
38:57
Speaker 1: because the character, particularly Tish, her mom, her sister, who
39:03
Speaker 1: have a couple of different conversations about this, they all
39:08
Speaker 1: believe that Victoria Rogers was raped. It's not as though
39:12
Speaker 1: they don't believe that. It's just that based on the facts,
39:15
Speaker 1: it could not have been Fanny. But because of this
39:19
Speaker 1: racist cop and the vendetta he has against Fanny, and
39:23
Speaker 1: she's you know, just severely traumatized by what happened to her,
39:27
Speaker 1: she makes this false accusation, which, for the sake of
39:31
Speaker 1: the story we are following, is incredibly frustrating, and it
39:35
Speaker 1: means that an innocent man is incarcerated for years. But
39:41
Speaker 1: the movie acknowledges that this traumatized woman is being manipulated
39:46
Speaker 1: by a racist cop. Ernestine says, you know, I believe
39:51
Speaker 1: she was raped, but she has no idea who did it.
39:54
Speaker 1: Fanny was presented to her as the rapist, and it
39:57
Speaker 1: was easier for her to say yes than to relive
39:59
Speaker 1: the thing. Um. So I think that characterization in that context,
40:06
Speaker 1: it presents it in such a way that, um, you know,
40:08
Speaker 1: it's not as though, like, oh, this woman is just
40:11
Speaker 1: making up being assaulted because thanks to rape culture, that's
40:17
Speaker 1: what a lot of people assume women do frequently, right,
40:21
Speaker 1: So that is completely avoided, which I really really appreciated,
40:25
Speaker 1: and you get kind of yet another angle on the
40:29
Speaker 1: ways in which American cops fail people, where it's not
40:33
Speaker 1: only is he intentionally failing Fannie and setting him up
40:39
Speaker 1: for his life to be destroyed because he's racist, he's
40:42
Speaker 1: also setting Victoria up for her life to be destroyed
40:47
Speaker 1: by being so deeply ineffective and so heartless towards victims
40:51
Speaker 1: of assault, Like he doesn't give a shit what happened
40:55
Speaker 1: to her. He's using her to carry out his vendetta
40:58
Speaker 1: against Fannie. It's one one one thing that I do.
41:02
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. It's it's very clear sitated that
41:05
Speaker 1: that that that that they're both equally victims, and that
41:07
Speaker 1: he and that he's just taking these two victims and
41:09
Speaker 1: and paying them being at each other, just just just
41:12
Speaker 1: hurt one and then and then resulting in hurting and
41:15
Speaker 1: ruining both of them. And it's very clear that the
41:17
Speaker 1: system care about women or black men. And I like that.
41:21
Speaker 1: That's very clear. Absolutely, And and I've like, yeah, Regina
41:27
Speaker 1: King's performance in that scene, I feel like the writing
41:29
Speaker 1: is amazing, but it's just like I feel like you
41:32
Speaker 1: can see through her performance what a hopeless, frustrating situation
41:40
Speaker 1: it is, because you know that this character does believe Victoria,
41:44
Speaker 1: and it's just trying to have a conversation that Victoria
41:48
Speaker 1: is too traumatized to have, and like it's not the
41:51
Speaker 1: fault of anyone. They're like it it would be easier
41:55
Speaker 1: to be angry with Victoria, but she's not because she
41:57
Speaker 1: believes her. And it's just it is like absolutely heartbreaking
42:03
Speaker 1: to watch and also just very like reflective of real
42:08
Speaker 1: life dynamics to this day, to this day. Yeah, so
42:13
Speaker 1: I thought that that, I mean, yeah, and just like
42:14
Speaker 1: the way that that scene is framed and um played,
42:19
Speaker 1: I feel like shows an appropriate empathy for Victoria while
42:25
Speaker 1: also clearly we are rooting for Fannie m Let's take
42:33
Speaker 1: a break and we will come back for a more discussion,
42:45
Speaker 1: and we're back. Where shall we go? I would not
42:50
Speaker 1: mind talking about I want to talk about how, in
42:57
Speaker 1: addition to all the other commentary that this movie is
42:59
Speaker 1: affect of re making, labor and class is another thing
43:04
Speaker 1: that I think the movie addresses responsibly in that there's
43:09
Speaker 1: a lot of mention of Tissa's family. You know, everyone's
43:14
Speaker 1: working class. You know, Tissu's dad works at the docks um.
43:18
Speaker 1: She ends up getting a job in a department store,
43:22
Speaker 1: at a perfume counter. I don't know if we know
43:26
Speaker 1: if do we know if Regina King's character works or
43:30
Speaker 1: what her job is. I can't remember, but I don't remember.
43:35
Speaker 1: Everyone in the family has a you know, working class job,
43:38
Speaker 1: and there's often discussion of how they're struggling to pay
43:44
Speaker 1: for like the special investigators they need to hire. They
43:49
Speaker 1: you know, can barely afford this trip to Puerto Rico
43:52
Speaker 1: to talk to Victoria Rogers um tissue works throughout her pregnancy,
43:56
Speaker 1: and I think we haven't talked about yet, but that
43:59
Speaker 1: they will. I mean, I would imagine this is mostly
44:02
Speaker 1: James Baldwin, but the way it's translated to film is
44:04
Speaker 1: so beautiful and it's like, ah, everything is a perfect metaphor,
44:09
Speaker 1: the way that Titsu's job at a perfume counter, and
44:12
Speaker 1: how people of different races feel entitled to her body
44:16
Speaker 1: in different ways, and it's just yeah, but but just
44:20
Speaker 1: speaking to your point, Kaitle, I mean she has to
44:22
Speaker 1: work throughout her pregnancy, yeah, and and just that that
44:26
Speaker 1: that statement of class and that and that lack of
44:29
Speaker 1: privilege to have to do labor to be able to
44:31
Speaker 1: to afford you know, the case in this baby, and
44:34
Speaker 1: that she has to keep pushing through. Yeah, so I
44:38
Speaker 1: thought all of that was handled well. And yeah, like
44:42
Speaker 1: you said, Jimmy, the commentary on black bodies and the
44:47
Speaker 1: level of like respect and boundaries people have or do
44:52
Speaker 1: not have, and how you know black bodies have historically
44:56
Speaker 1: been so exploited and objectified by white people. Um. Yeah,
45:01
Speaker 1: that was a really effective like metaphor to introduce into
45:06
Speaker 1: the movie by way of um Titia's job. And then
45:10
Speaker 1: we have Fannie who found something that he wanted to
45:15
Speaker 1: do this like you know, woodworking, This would sculpturing and
45:19
Speaker 1: having this creative pursuit and that he's really good at it,
45:23
Speaker 1: and the commentary around that because she says that it
45:28
Speaker 1: saved him from the deaths that awaited the children of
45:30
Speaker 1: our age. The you know, he found this like passion
45:34
Speaker 1: that he could really connect to and it explore his
45:37
Speaker 1: art And I really liked that. Um but just yeah, overall,
45:41
Speaker 1: the characters constantly worrying about where they're going to find
45:47
Speaker 1: the money to pay for this defense that they shouldn't
45:50
Speaker 1: even have to be dealing with in the first place,
45:53
Speaker 1: because he's been wrongfully accused because of a racist cop
45:58
Speaker 1: fucking with him. It's frustrating, but you know, again, the
46:02
Speaker 1: movie handles it very effectively. Yeah, I agree. And then
46:07
Speaker 1: the last thing I wanted to talk about was the
46:10
Speaker 1: romance between Tishe and Fannie and just that it's so
46:16
Speaker 1: sweet and beautiful and pure and you know, we've we've
46:23
Speaker 1: talked about how black love is something that does not
46:26
Speaker 1: get depicted on screen very often, and again the way
46:30
Speaker 1: that it's just like this very supportive and pure love
46:34
Speaker 1: between these two characters. They were like childhood best friends.
46:38
Speaker 1: They both came of age, they realized that each other
46:41
Speaker 1: was very sexy, and they're like, well, we should probably
46:43
Speaker 1: do something about this, but we turned out so sexy.
46:47
Speaker 1: We turned out to sexy, and we're already best friends,
46:49
Speaker 1: so we might as well kiss. We already talked about
46:53
Speaker 1: like the sex scenes on screen and how they're shot
46:56
Speaker 1: very tastefully, and yeah, I just I thought the romance
46:59
Speaker 1: between Tishe and Fawnny was handled very well and it
47:05
Speaker 1: made me believe in love just a little bit. I know,
47:08
Speaker 1: I was like, huh, I was like, I don't this
47:10
Speaker 1: thing might not suck. And I also I love that
47:14
Speaker 1: it's you're able to tell in this movie that you're
47:16
Speaker 1: able to have like that this boy next door thing
47:20
Speaker 1: amongst this movie is just it's just so magical to me,
47:23
Speaker 1: um and and and and then it just kind of
47:26
Speaker 1: like slowly washes over you. And I feel like it
47:28
Speaker 1: washes over the view the way that it does, and
47:31
Speaker 1: I just think that's really wonderful. It's lovely, it's really beautiful.
47:36
Speaker 1: It's and the way it's shot is just like so incredible,
47:40
Speaker 1: and it feels like you're falling in love with them too.
47:43
Speaker 1: It's really nice. The last thing I wanted to just
47:46
Speaker 1: mention really quick, because I'm an adaptation head, was the slight,
47:52
Speaker 1: slight change in the ending of the movie versus the book,
47:58
Speaker 1: which I was not aware of when I first saw
48:00
Speaker 1: the movie, but when I was prepping for this episode.
48:03
Speaker 1: So at the end of the book, Fannie is out
48:07
Speaker 1: on bail with his trial postponed indefinitely. So it's almost
48:12
Speaker 1: like this it's hopeful and that he's going to be
48:16
Speaker 1: able to spend time with his child and with Tish,
48:19
Speaker 1: but it's also like purgatory, like because you don't know
48:24
Speaker 1: how long this situation is going to last. Barry Jenkins
48:26
Speaker 1: chose to end it on a less I guess less ambiguous. No,
48:32
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just I don't really have a
48:34
Speaker 1: strong opinion on it either way. I just thought it
48:36
Speaker 1: was interesting that that was one of his creative choices
48:40
Speaker 1: to adjust a little bit. Yeah, it makes the ending
48:44
Speaker 1: feel more bleak, certainly does in the book's ending, but
48:50
Speaker 1: shop is bleak out there. So I don't have a
48:55
Speaker 1: strong take out it. I just wanted to mention that
48:58
Speaker 1: connotation change um, because I could see feeling a number
49:02
Speaker 1: of ways about it. I think that the way that
49:04
Speaker 1: the movie ends, I mean, both are grounded in realism.
49:08
Speaker 1: They're just kind of different, different ways to slice it. Yeah,
49:11
Speaker 1: I also had read the book, so when I watched it,
49:13
Speaker 1: I was like, that makes sense. I was like, things
49:16
Speaker 1: are kind of like a kind to that, and that
49:19
Speaker 1: makes sense. So, I mean, you know, it tracks. It
49:23
Speaker 1: would have been nice to see this black narrative end
49:27
Speaker 1: on a more optimistic note, since a lot of black
49:32
Speaker 1: stories don't. Yeah, I found I just found it interesting
49:35
Speaker 1: that Barry Jenkins made a choice to make it a
49:37
Speaker 1: little more depressing. It was like, right, but I trust
49:41
Speaker 1: his judgment, you know, of course, So I'm just like,
49:44
Speaker 1: you know, One thing I also remember reading was that
49:46
Speaker 1: apparently that Fannie's dad could suicide in the book but
49:50
Speaker 1: not in the movie. And so I was like, so,
49:51
Speaker 1: I guess it was like a trade off. Interesting, I
49:54
Speaker 1: did not see that. It's like, I guess we can
49:58
Speaker 1: keep Fannie his dad. But I guess we got it.
50:00
Speaker 1: So I guess it was a good toss up. I
50:02
Speaker 1: guess we have to add in a bummer element somewhere else.
50:06
Speaker 1: That's I mean, bummer is a major understatement, obviously. Yeah.
50:09
Speaker 1: I mean, as we've said many times, we're not known
50:12
Speaker 1: for our our our book reading. We don't read book
50:16
Speaker 1: here podcast. I do really want to read the book,
50:19
Speaker 1: especially because I haven't read a James Baldwin novel. Shout
50:24
Speaker 1: out to James Baldwin, um a prolific queer Black writer.
50:30
Speaker 1: I did because I love movie watching so much. I
50:32
Speaker 1: did watch the documentary on him. I am not your Negro,
50:37
Speaker 1: but I have yet to read one of his great books.
50:41
Speaker 1: I had a great I'll shout her out. I had
50:44
Speaker 1: a great English teacher in high school named Mrs McLaren
50:49
Speaker 1: who had us read Notes of a Native Son are
50:53
Speaker 1: freshman year of high school, and she James Baldwin pilled
50:57
Speaker 1: us early. Nice it work. He's the best. But I
51:01
Speaker 1: also want to read this back summers here baby, you
51:05
Speaker 1: got it to download your audio books and and and
51:09
Speaker 1: go nut nut um. Does anyone else have anything to
51:15
Speaker 1: say about the film? Everything? Yeah, I feel like, oh,
51:21
Speaker 1: I guess my one last phrase of this great movie,
51:23
Speaker 1: you're not going to kind of bring down a little
51:25
Speaker 1: little bit, but to go back to the I guess
51:27
Speaker 1: to the treatment it's early down, but to the treatment
51:30
Speaker 1: of Victoria. Also what I love because of thinking about
51:34
Speaker 1: the treatment of like of of Psycho Saut with black
51:37
Speaker 1: men and not black women, and how and how black
51:40
Speaker 1: men have been wealthy accused, and how and how that
51:42
Speaker 1: this self could have gone left and um, and kind
51:46
Speaker 1: of thinking about that history and and and and treating
51:48
Speaker 1: it also in so much in his court in his
51:51
Speaker 1: defense that you have to that you have to automatically
51:54
Speaker 1: feel in eyes. But but they still didn't. And keeping
51:56
Speaker 1: in mind that New Wanton just thought that was another
51:58
Speaker 1: great point. They can at that history that but that
52:01
Speaker 1: you don't have to automatically still balonize And that was
52:05
Speaker 1: really great. Absolutely, this movie is so beautiful. If you
52:08
Speaker 1: want to uh fall in love and cry, then watch
52:13
Speaker 1: it today because it is just fucking gorgeous. And we
52:17
Speaker 1: also I mean, this is the first Barry Jenkins movie
52:19
Speaker 1: we've covered, but we are we We are also aware
52:23
Speaker 1: of the overwhelming number of Moonlight requests. We will become
52:28
Speaker 1: the Moonlight. Don't you worry. It's Barry Jenkins here here
52:32
Speaker 1: in the pod. Yeah. Um, this is very much beside
52:37
Speaker 1: the point. But Barry Jenkins, I feel like you're hot. Yeah. Well,
52:42
Speaker 1: and also in law married to Lulu Wang, director of
52:47
Speaker 1: The Farewell Maybe the couple. I love Law. They're so cute.
52:53
Speaker 1: It's kind of startling what a good idea it is
52:56
Speaker 1: for them to be married. It's just it's it just
53:00
Speaker 1: makes sense. I remember where I was when I learned that.
53:05
Speaker 1: I was like, if you guys want to cold direct something,
53:07
Speaker 1: I just feel like he would all be really grateful.
53:10
Speaker 1: As as society culturally we need this. I'm just like,
53:14
Speaker 1: why not? Why not? I also wanted to last shout
53:18
Speaker 1: out Barry Jenkins related also hot, married, and he released
53:25
Speaker 1: a series on I think Amazon Prime last year called
53:28
Speaker 1: The Underground Railroad that was so good and I felt
53:32
Speaker 1: like was really overlooked. I don't know a lot of
53:35
Speaker 1: people who have seen it. I feel like Amazon's horrible
53:38
Speaker 1: at promoting their own shows and fuck Amazon, but that
53:42
Speaker 1: show is incredible. You should watch it. I feel like
53:45
Speaker 1: Amazon treats Prime as it. It's kind of like the
53:48
Speaker 1: throwaway thing that you that you get when by that stuff.
53:51
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you have like shows and they're good,
53:53
Speaker 1: just promote them like it's not hot. The content is good,
53:56
Speaker 1: they're already there. I was like, you gave Barry Jenkins
53:59
Speaker 1: a thank check. You're gonna want to tell people about it,
54:03
Speaker 1: you fools. The only show that any like, I don't know,
54:07
Speaker 1: Amazon shows The Boys. The Boys. I'm tired of hearing
54:10
Speaker 1: about the Boys. Love to promote the Boys. Look, I'm
54:14
Speaker 1: not going to watch The Boys. You can't make me,
54:17
Speaker 1: but I highly highly recommend Underground Dollara. Yes, um, well,
54:24
Speaker 1: it really came down hard on the Boys and Tantatum's
54:28
Speaker 1: furniture today. I just don't for your first lidetto over there.
54:31
Speaker 1: It was like you, Okay, what happened? We're doing great?
54:37
Speaker 1: What did the Boys ever do to me? I don't know.
54:39
Speaker 1: I mean, in general, Billy Zanes in that show, I
54:42
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm so upset about that changes things.
54:47
Speaker 1: I think for just like an episode, I'll watch that episode, Okay,
54:51
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm so mad about. I need
54:53
Speaker 1: to take a nap. I'm sick. You do you you
54:55
Speaker 1: have COVID, Jamie, Yeah, need to rest. So let's let's
54:58
Speaker 1: draw this episode O to a conclusion. Does the movie
55:03
Speaker 1: pass the Bechtel test? For sure? It does a lot
55:06
Speaker 1: of the conversations between women, such as like Tissue and
55:09
Speaker 1: her mom, tishe and her sister. The context is often
55:13
Speaker 1: about Fannie, but there are exchanges that do pass. And also,
55:17
Speaker 1: this is one of those movies where you know, not
55:20
Speaker 1: handily passing the Bechtel test is fine. Not every movie
55:25
Speaker 1: has to do that because it's doing so much else
55:30
Speaker 1: and it's saying so much else, and this movie is
55:34
Speaker 1: doing it anyways, so right, which I speaks to Yeah, Again,
55:38
Speaker 1: it's like the metric itself is not the liver Die thing.
55:43
Speaker 1: It's like, this movie has a number of well written,
55:46
Speaker 1: well thought out characters of all genders who are talking
55:50
Speaker 1: to each other and it's that whole, that whole level
55:53
Speaker 1: of discourse. It was like, oh my gosh. I was
55:58
Speaker 1: just like, I was like, we're taking a cartiage of
56:00
Speaker 1: a little too literally here. Maybe we all settled down,
56:03
Speaker 1: maybe we all got outside. Maybe with touch of Grass.
56:06
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, Michael Michelle, thank you so much for
56:10
Speaker 1: returning to the show. It is so lovely to have
56:13
Speaker 1: you back. Thank you for inviting me. I love y'all.
56:16
Speaker 1: Y'all they're great. I love the show. I love movies.
56:19
Speaker 1: You think all, where can we find more of wit?
56:24
Speaker 1: We didn't do the nipples, Jamie, Jamie, you're so sick.
56:28
Speaker 1: I have co um so yes nipple scales zero to
56:34
Speaker 1: five nipples. Based on how the movie fares, looking at
56:38
Speaker 1: it through an intersectional feminist lens, I would give this,
56:43
Speaker 1: I would say like a four point five. And the
56:46
Speaker 1: only thing I can think to jock four would be
56:53
Speaker 1: the domestic felt like an unnecessary inclusion of domestic violence
56:58
Speaker 1: that is also not really I don't know why it
57:02
Speaker 1: was there really, But other than that, it's a nearly
57:06
Speaker 1: perfect movie. It's yeah, it's just it's just a really
57:10
Speaker 1: beautiful story. And as as Barry Jenkins said, this movie
57:15
Speaker 1: rides that wavelength of like Joyce highs and at the
57:19
Speaker 1: turn of a dime, very real lows of being black
57:23
Speaker 1: in America. And I think that this movie handles that
57:27
Speaker 1: maybe more effectively than any other movie I've seen. I
57:30
Speaker 1: love the focus on this loving and supportive black family.
57:36
Speaker 1: I love the focus on this loving and supportive relationship
57:39
Speaker 1: like romantic relationship between Tishe and Fannie. All the commentary
57:44
Speaker 1: on the judicial system, policing real estate, and the racism
57:52
Speaker 1: that's present there class commentary. This movie is just accomplishing
57:56
Speaker 1: so much, so efficiently, and so beautifully. And I'll give
58:01
Speaker 1: it four point seven five nipples. I'll give one to Tish,
58:07
Speaker 1: one to Tissa's mom, Sharon, I will give one to
58:12
Speaker 1: Barry Jenkins. I'll give one to James Baldwin, and I'll
58:17
Speaker 1: give my three quarters nipple to Ernestine Tissue's sister. Love it.
58:27
Speaker 1: I'll meet you there. I I agree that the one
58:29
Speaker 1: thing that bumped me was keeping domestic violence that felt
58:33
Speaker 1: like I could have been accomplished in a less triggering way.
58:37
Speaker 1: Or if you're going to keep it, then make sure
58:38
Speaker 1: you're commenting on it. We already talked it through. But
58:42
Speaker 1: this movie is just so beautiful it couldn't make I mean,
58:46
Speaker 1: Barry Jenkins adapting James Baldwin is like, what more could
58:50
Speaker 1: you ask for in a movie like? And I feel
58:53
Speaker 1: like his Barry Jenkins filmmaking like rises to the same
58:58
Speaker 1: quality of James Baldwin's writing, which is like, like that's
59:02
Speaker 1: how it's not fair how talented people are sometimes you know,
59:06
Speaker 1: it's sort of fucked up. Someone just have to be
59:10
Speaker 1: on podcast, you know, and it doesn't feel good, you know,
59:14
Speaker 1: um the but it's just like an unbelievable match between
59:20
Speaker 1: writer and director. Um, and it works so well. Every
59:24
Speaker 1: character here is so well acted and and you know,
59:29
Speaker 1: I mean Caitlin did just echo what you're saying. The
59:32
Speaker 1: number of issues that this movie addresses thoughtfully and seamlessly
59:38
Speaker 1: is just like kind of incredible in a period piece too,
59:43
Speaker 1: It is just incredible. And also you just have you
59:46
Speaker 1: have women at the center of the story and also
59:50
Speaker 1: a lot of different kinds of women with different perspectives,
59:53
Speaker 1: and but there is still generally a loving, supportive environment
59:59
Speaker 1: across the board. So I love this Spoobie. Um, I'm
1:00:03
Speaker 1: gonna give it four point seven five. Give one to Tish,
1:00:06
Speaker 1: give to one to Brian Tyree, Henry, I'll give one
1:00:11
Speaker 1: to Regina King, give one to Tiana Paris, and then
1:00:16
Speaker 1: I'll give the point seven five two. Barry Jenkins love it.
1:00:22
Speaker 1: Michael Michelle I would also give it a point for
1:00:24
Speaker 1: seven five. Also because like the slap you know, we said,
1:00:28
Speaker 1: like we said, I didn't need to be there. Um,
1:00:31
Speaker 1: but yeah, I just I love this movie. I'll keep
1:00:34
Speaker 1: rewatching it because, um, it just handles things well and
1:00:38
Speaker 1: it also still makes me feel warm although it's not
1:00:40
Speaker 1: like about this really hard topic, but it's still gives
1:00:43
Speaker 1: you like the feeling of warmth, which is like amazing. Yeah,
1:00:46
Speaker 1: and just everyone everyone looks great. Uh shut after Stefan
1:00:51
Speaker 1: James for looking like that. Thank you for existing, sir, um.
1:00:57
Speaker 1: And it just handles so many things really well. Else,
1:01:00
Speaker 1: I would give one to Tish, one dish to Sharon
1:01:05
Speaker 1: and Orgina King for being an icon and possibly the
1:01:08
Speaker 1: greatest Chile star of all time. Um oh, I would
1:01:12
Speaker 1: give one to Barry jing and and then also one
1:01:15
Speaker 1: to Coin Nikas whose name I don't remember, but a
1:01:18
Speaker 1: great father figure. And then point seven five to Barry Jakin,
1:01:22
Speaker 1: Tish's father. You mean, yes, Joseph, Yes, one to Joseph
1:01:26
Speaker 1: for for for following impartial all these food steps of
1:01:30
Speaker 1: very very Jenkin's great father figures. Yes. Absolutely, Thank you
1:01:35
Speaker 1: again Michael Michelle for coming back and chatting about this
1:01:38
Speaker 1: movie with us. Where can people follow you? Check out
1:01:43
Speaker 1: your writing, et cetera. Yes, so I am on Twitter
1:01:47
Speaker 1: at Michael. No, that's wrong. I'm on Instagram, like I
1:01:52
Speaker 1: have social media and I know what they're called. I
1:01:55
Speaker 1: am Michael Michelle with three m h A E L
1:01:59
Speaker 1: m h l e with three ears at the end
1:02:02
Speaker 1: on Instagram, on films and films on Twitter because I
1:02:07
Speaker 1: care about women in movies, and um, you can see
1:02:11
Speaker 1: me um in our Bizarre and Awards Watch and teen
1:02:15
Speaker 1: Vogue and I'm doing some really cool cover story that
1:02:18
Speaker 1: I can talk about yet, but they're really fun. Um.
1:02:20
Speaker 1: I did some cool work with Awards watched for some
1:02:23
Speaker 1: Emmy nominees recently that'll be out soon. Um. I'm still
1:02:28
Speaker 1: paying at university, how the dollars each year it hopes
1:02:31
Speaker 1: of one day get a good degree. So I'll so
1:02:34
Speaker 1: I'm still doing that. I'm making a short film and yeah,
1:02:38
Speaker 1: oh yeah that's incredible. Yeah. You can find us on
1:02:42
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1:02:49
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1:02:53
Speaker 1: a month look at you too, bonus episodes with over
1:02:57
Speaker 1: a hundreds in the backlog. Are you running out of
1:02:59
Speaker 1: main fee. Well not anymore, to scoot on over to
1:03:03
Speaker 1: the matrix, not anymore, okay, and sorry, I have COVID
1:03:08
Speaker 1: nineteen um okay uh. And you can check out our
1:03:13
Speaker 1: merch over at public dot com slash the Bacto cast.
1:03:18
Speaker 1: Indeed you can. And with that, should we all take
1:03:24
Speaker 1: a stroll down Beal Street. Let's do it together holding hands? Yeah,
1:03:30
Speaker 1: you know, as a score swells and there's like a
1:03:32
Speaker 1: yellow ceres yes, and the leaves there's it seems like
1:03:37
Speaker 1: there was always fall foliage. Yes, very autumnal vibes. Oh
1:03:44
Speaker 1: so nice. Okay, bye bye, bye bye