Latest / Love Letters to Troublemakers / E8. The Self-Advocacy Trap and Myth of The Girl Boss

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E8. The Self-Advocacy Trap and Myth of The Girl Boss · Love Letters to Troublemakers

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It's not just like, hey, guys like practice mutual aid and
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help each other and everything is going to be fixed because the
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system is rigged to Orient you towards looking out for yourself
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and towards quote UN quote, winning and competition.
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And so to some degree, I think some of it is going to be about
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when you are a person of color and you or a marginalized person
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and you believe in and you buy into these concepts, then you
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are in the position of power to make some of these decisions,
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make these decisions, you know, just just do it.
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That's that's just like, that's number one.
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Just do it. Welcome to another episode of
0:46
the Circle Back Club, a podcast for workers who are tired of
0:50
being told the problem is US. We're sure to give you the
0:55
history, the language and the honesty to understand what's
0:58
actually happening at work and imagine something different
1:02
together. I'm lawyers.
1:03
And I'm Aparna. Today we are going to talk about
1:06
something that oh, it might be uncomfortable for a lot of
1:11
people who spend years building their brands, figuring out how
1:16
to negotiate the perfect salary, finding the elevator pitch that
1:21
will get you that next job, that next gig.
1:24
We are asking whether self advocacy, the whole apparatus
1:30
from the girl boss, Lean in chief, the wing, rest in Peace,
1:34
ladies get paid, the hustle of individual advancement, is that
1:40
really enough? And if not self advocacy, then
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what are we doing? And to, I don't know how to
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break some of these things down with us.
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Our guest today is Hala, Sally. Hala, you're a technologist with
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more than 20 years of experience.
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You're also the founder of Yahala.
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You named it after yourself, which is so, like, brave and
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confident. It's a community space in the
2:05
greater Seattle area built around connection, belonging and
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care. And someone who has been
2:11
speaking very loudly about mutual aid at work as a survival
2:15
strategy for this moment. In your own words, you said Hala
2:20
will always try to feed you. And I can personally attest to
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that as I was eating low key Hala's, like, I'm making dinner.
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It's lamb chops. Yeah.
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You know, like it wasn't a Hamburger Helper or I don't.
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I don't know. And they were vegetables too.
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So Halle will always try to feed you because the fight for
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liberation requires fuel. And food is love and love is
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food. You also write, you have two
2:47
different sub stacks and we're going to link to both of those
2:50
in the show notes so that people can find you.
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Welcome to the Circle Back Club. Welcome.
2:57
Thanks so much. Thanks for inviting me.
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I'm really excited to be here. I've been binging all your
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episodes so far so it's great to be talking to like minded people
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so thank you. So our guiding question for
3:10
today, just to see things for everybody, is when the system is
3:15
designed to exhaust you individually, what does it mean
3:19
to win together? And what if the most powerful
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thing that we as people with historically marginalized
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identities can do right now is to stop advocating for ourselves
3:32
and start building with and for each other?
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Our episode today really is like focused on this mess of self
3:40
advocacy, this girl boss playbook that I think a lot of
3:43
us have played ourselves. And I will just I'll say that,
3:48
you know, even as I was starting to think about this episode and
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started to script it, this has been the hardest 1 for me to get
3:56
ready for because I myself leaned in so, so hard into this
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girl boss life in 2017. Like I was a single girl in my
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early 30s. I went to all of the lean in
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events. I was in the bumble queen bee
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ambassador programs, like super cringe name.
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I like was often speaking at the wing and I, you know, was like
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doing the salary negotiation workshops and building my
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network and feeding my brand and Oh my gosh, and calling myself
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an investor and just like doing all of the things that I'm like,
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God, that was so embarrassing. Why did you do that?
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I I feel so embarrassed when I think about that phase of my
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life. Yeah, and I'm guessing the the
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advice didn't exactly pan out. What happened?
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Well, we've talked about so many things already in this podcast,
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right, about what didn't work out.
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But I don't think that there was like anyone moment.
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It was just like many of these little, little moments that kind
4:59
of all came to a head for me. But the first one was in 2019, I
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had a startup called Future for us.
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We did a lot of networking for women of colour and an elder in
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our community asked me, she said, well, why are you building
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a networking organization for women of color without women of
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color? And I kind of went, duh, like
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obviously it's for women of color.
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But what she meant was why are why aren't we building with
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women in professions where women of color are over indexed right
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where they're represented, the frontline and hourly workers,
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the care workers, the educators? And why are we only focusing?
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Why are we only focusing on already upwardly mobile women of
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colour? And that was a really hard
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moment for me. I like I've come back to that
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conversation many times. And before we could really solve
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for it as a start up, you know, the pandemic really shut shut us
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down. We were a year old when we went
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into lockdown and, and then there's like a sting that I feel
6:04
every time I see data on women's advancement specifically.
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And I think, gosh, like, why is the needle not moving faster,
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right? Like this McKenzie women in
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workplace report that comes out every year and the graphs are
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kind of interchangeable year to year.
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And very recently, I think just in the past year, almost every
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single week, I've had a conversation with somebody who
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did all of the right things. They worked really hard.
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They did their like 18 networking events.
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They lived on 4 hours of sleep for years and years on end.
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And you guys are nodding, right? And you're like, yeah, me too.
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Like I also survived somehow on 4 hours of sleep for years.
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And, and yet they are the first ones to get laid off or to get
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demoted or to get blamed or to be shown the door.
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And, and I've just been sitting with this idea of like what we
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did all of the things that we were told to do.
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Like we asked for our promotions and we tried to negotiate our
6:58
pay and we asked for the stretch assignments that came with no
7:02
extra pay. And yet we're in this really
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stuck place. And I'm curious like if either
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of you have found yourself in that place?
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It feels like that is actually, I feel like it's built into the
7:19
system. It's built into the way that the
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system was designed and it's almost even an indication that
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that the system is working as it was designed.
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When I think about why that continues to happen and the
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cyclical nature of like seeing this with myself, with friends,
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with others that are marginalized in, in these
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organizations. It's just that the, the inherent
7:46
structure and the hierarchy that is inherent in these hyper
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capitalistic like orgs, It requires that there are people
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who do the brunt of the work and take all of the hit and get a
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fraction of the pay. And combine that with the fact
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that we just live in patriarchy and specifically there's like
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current phase of patriarchy where it's just like unhinged.
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It just makes it so that the default groups that are taking
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the hit are women and fans and marginalized groups.
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And I and I just feel like it's getting amplified.
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I mean, I have personal stories. I last year I got let go from a
8:24
start up where I was responsible for launching products from zero
8:28
from scratch. But you know, I came in and I
8:31
LED engineering team as well as product I brought in process
8:36
that just never existed before. I came in and created the
8:40
capability and, and ability for them to actually even launch
8:43
something into the market. And when their investors looked
8:46
at their numbers and they, you know, basically spoke into the
8:49
ear of the execs and the CEO and what not, they were like, you
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need to look leaner. You need to have less cost.
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You need to invest less in products and invest more in
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sales because you're not selling.
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And, and I was let go and I had like pennies upon what they
9:04
owned in, in the company and stock options, right?
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Stock options that vest at certain requirements, which is
9:12
basically your, your cost, right?
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You're required to spend a certain amount of time.
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It's not even about your contribution or what you've
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actually done. It's more about how, quote UN
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quote loyal and this culture of loyalty to a corporation or to
9:25
an organization exists. And, and anyway, ultimately, you
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know, I was let go and didn't get what should have been my
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fair share in, in terms of what I contributed.
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And that's just one story of many.
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So yeah, it's if if the Co founders had implemented, on the
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other hand, some of the principles of community and
9:47
collectivism and all of that, this situation could have gone
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in a much different direction. And I keep thinking about that,
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like how would I have handled it differently?
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That like having to ask that question, how could I have
10:00
handled it differently when, yeah, the bottom line is serving
10:05
the shareholder the the carrot of stocks that are vesting and
10:11
never ending in front of you. They like truly are in possible
10:15
conditions. And I'm thinking about coaching
10:19
clients where it's really common for me to to work with people
10:23
who are at a place where they're burnt out or at that like they
10:26
can't, they can't take it anymore.
10:28
Toxicity is addicting. So like you crash, you crash out
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and then you get the next opportunity.
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And do you think maybe this time I'm going to rig it differently?
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And so actually what, what I am reflecting on and what I've seen
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is the way that we go up and down in the spikes of like, you
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know, hollow to your point where you're like you, you've gone
10:56
through an experience where you've been pushed out.
10:58
Your intellectual property is no longer your own, but there's no
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actual like recognition of the labor and creation that you've
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done. And we are all back to asking,
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what could I have done differently, which is, you know,
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so core to the myth of what we're talking about today around
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self advocacy. Like it's never actually about
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ourselves, but the way that the the toxicity runs for people is
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we get this, we get burnt out and then we go back in and we
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try again. And I think that's something
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that I have experienced personally in my career as well.
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It's like the spikiness of it. And it's really hard to step
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back and carve a new path when you're perpetually trying to
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figure it out by yourself. Can I, can I share a thought on
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the burnout, on the burnout, I actually have been thinking
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about burnout a lot lately. And I think that the conclusion
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that I've reached around the conditions that create burnout
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is that burnout comes from a lack of reciprocity.
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So you can be, you can be doing some of the most fulfilling
12:08
community work and it feels good and purpose driven and whatever,
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and you can still burnout like you're in a corporation when
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that community also isn't reciprocating and giving back.
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Which is why the concept of mutual aid is where I feel like
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it needs to be taught. Reciprocity needs to be taught
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because it's not just about serving and giving.
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And women and femmes and people who have typically been given
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the role of serving and service are expected to serve.
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And there isn't the same expectation of reciprocation.
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And so that's kind of where I feel like that feeling of
12:47
burnout is just continue, continues to perpetuate because
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it's like, here's a little carrot, here's a little carrot,
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here's a little carrot. But give us your 150%.
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As you were saying that, I was also thinking about the
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hierarchy of reciprocity. And so I think I've talked about
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this book before, at least with Lars.
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It's called Entitled by Kate Mann, a professor who writes
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about gender dynamics and how women behave a certain way, like
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in certain ways, because they feel the pressure to give, give,
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give, give, give, right, and they're not actually receiving
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very much in return. And then white women then lean
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down on minoritized groups because they're looking to those
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groups to give, give, give, and they're not going to
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reciprocate. And so I think in work as well,
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you know, we see these hierarchies of the lack of
13:38
reciprocity where that might not actually be the case.
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Often times. Like the most giving people are
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the front desk manager, someone's EA, right?
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And who is giving anything to that person, by the way?
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Like 9 out of 10 times that person is probably a woman or
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right? Like a femme identifying human
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right. And that, yeah, I feel like that
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real is I think you making the connection between burnout and
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reciprocity is really powerful. So I actually want to jump ahead
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and you made this video, I think maybe a couple of months ago.
14:14
And Lars, I want to play it for you because I think that there's
14:19
so much hollow says in that that I don't.
14:22
And I don't want to paraphrase it.
14:24
That is a really powerful invitation for for workers in
14:30
general. So OK, let me play this so.
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We're expanding our definition of mutual aid, Yes.
14:36
It doesn't just mean giving people cash.
14:39
It doesn't just mean it's by no means charity.
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It's reciprocation. It's a give and take, one way
14:46
that you can perform mutual aid. And I'm talking to my friends
14:50
and people that are in the tech industry, but this extends.
14:53
Beyond that, any industry. Where you are in a position.
14:56
Where you are able. To make decisions about how the
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company spends money and you have friends who are out here
15:02
looking for work, trying to supplement their income or
15:05
trying to make an income and they don't have steady work.
15:08
Hire those friends, make those decisions, help them get work.
15:15
You are not doing your company a favor by saving the money and by
15:19
introducing maximum efficiency. They they make you feel like you
15:24
are because that's in their best interest.
15:27
But if there is work to be done and you have the ability to make
15:30
decisions and you can give people work, give them work,
15:35
help each other out. I've watched that video probably
15:39
20 times, Lars. I think this is the first time
15:43
you're listening to it. I'm just curious what came up
15:46
for you. What's coming up for me is like,
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what are we doing? You know, like what, what are we
15:51
doing? And it really it is like it's,
15:57
it's not complicated to come back to how do I share resources
16:02
with the person next to me? How do I trust that the person
16:05
that I'm connected to can step into an opportunity and I can
16:09
advocate for them to to make that happen while championing
16:13
their autonomy and trusting that to exactly what we're talking
16:16
about that like this can be reciprocal.
16:19
This is non transactional. I think when if someone hears
16:23
that outside of the context of mutual aid, we're talking about
16:27
sponsorship, we're talking about like a transactional feeding to
16:32
get someone a gig. But when you're sitting under
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the frame of mutual aid, which one of the most important
16:40
tenants of it is when we are in this reciprocal nature, I also
16:47
am not owed information about what happens next.
16:50
Like you don't have to prove anything to me.
16:52
I don't have to know what you what you do with the resource
16:55
that I give. And it's the same with jobs.
16:57
You know, it's like, the point is we are standing up to help
17:02
each other be able to meet our material needs.
17:05
And we use our network to be able to support that with open
17:08
arms with, you know, that that release of just that.
17:14
So that's what comes up to me when I hear that.
17:17
And I think it's been like something that, you know, like
17:23
when you take it into how do you see yourself and what you, you
17:28
are deserving of when asking other people for help,
17:31
especially professionally, there's a lot of unlearning that
17:37
we need to do to be able to make it possible for us to even be in
17:40
those types of relationships. So that was a long, that was a
17:42
long reflection. But like, that's that's what
17:45
comes up for me with it when I hear that.
17:47
Holly, you know, you've talked about the fact that mutual aid
17:50
isn't charity. Yeah, right.
17:52
We know that this is how men, in particular white men, this is
17:56
how they built their wealth, their access, their they don't
17:59
consider it an act of charity when they invest in each other's
18:03
companies or when they hire their peers kid for an
18:07
internship. But I yeah, I'm curious, like,
18:11
will you say a little bit more about why this is not charity?
18:15
I'll say too that that video was created very much spur of the
18:20
moment as a rant after I had had a kind of reconnecting call with
18:25
a former ex like Co worker of mine who actually I managed who
18:31
is a white man within, you know, large organizations that have
18:36
budget to hire people as consultants as contractors as
18:39
what not. And I was just chatting with him
18:42
and had this aha moment realization in the middle of the
18:45
conversation that, like, I will always bite my tongue when it
18:49
comes to saying what I need with you because you are not somebody
18:54
that I will trust to say I am in a place of need.
18:57
I need work. I'm good at what I do.
18:59
And you know that because I managed you.
19:02
And can you put my name in a room, Right.
19:06
Can you say my name in a room? And I knew that I would have to
19:09
keep it at like, oh, yeah, this is what I'm doing.
19:12
Casual room. This is, you know, Yeah.
19:14
If you have anything around that's like, you know, you think
19:17
I, I could do like would be great to know and find out about
19:20
that because because there is a superiority, there is a scarcity
19:26
mindset. There is a if I got to the top
19:29
and bring this person in that is good, then that might get taken
19:32
away from me. And, and those are the reasons
19:35
why we don't in these organizations help each other
19:38
out because they've created that belief within us that like you
19:42
are out to make it for yourself. So yes, mutual aid should not be
19:48
seen as charity and the reason why and, and, and it's very
19:51
humbling, right, to get to these points in your life where you're
19:54
like, I need help, I need help and I can't therapy my way out
20:00
of it or. Take a loan my way out of it or
20:06
pretend I'm not in an in a place of need.
20:09
We will all have moments in our lives to varying degrees and for
20:12
different reasons why we will need to be able to call on other
20:15
people to help. And so if you view it that way
20:19
in, in terms of like tallying up all of the things that we're all
20:22
doing for each other, I'm doing something for somebody, but I
20:25
know that somebody else, it doesn't have to be that same
20:27
person. At some point, I will come to a
20:30
crossroads where someone else will, I will need them to do
20:32
something for me. And so that in, in that sense is
20:36
what I mean by it's not charity, it's it's actually your
20:39
responsibility to contribute to continuing the cyclical system
20:43
of like give and take. And we have to practice it.
20:47
We have to practice it. So the, the narrative that's
20:50
been persisted in, in Western cultures and capitalistic
20:54
environments is that like, you know, what's the term, pull
20:57
yourself up from your bootstraps, right?
20:59
Like this Ann Rand, you know, individual, like do what's best
21:04
for you and that will be what's best for everybody else.
21:07
And, and it's perpetuated because the more we believe in
21:10
that, the less we lean on each other and the less of community
21:13
we we build. And actually, the more we build
21:16
community and we see each other as a collective, the more we can
21:19
actually disrupt the oppression that's happening within these
21:22
systems, the more we can stand up together when we are like,
21:25
whoa, that's not cool. Like, it's not cool that you
21:28
guys have this policy for us at this company or we don't like
21:31
that because now we see ourselves as individuals within
21:34
the system. And so I can't do anything on my
21:36
own. Like, I don't like that they're
21:37
asking me to come work on a Black Friday, but I'm not going
21:41
to say anything when it's just me, you know?
21:45
So, so that's how what I mean when I say like, it's not
21:48
charity. It's actually like mutual
21:49
responsibility. And it's funny because a lot of
21:52
our cultures, whether it's like indigenous cultures,
21:54
collectivist cultures, it actually comes very naturally.
21:58
I remember growing up in Jordan and in Kuwait and I, I never saw
22:03
a homeless person on the street. And that is because it is
22:06
embedded in the DNA, in the culture of the fabric of like
22:10
the social contract, is that when there is somebody in need
22:14
and somebody who has something that can benefit that person in
22:18
need. It.
22:19
You give it because the next Friday you're going to be
22:22
hungry. Yeah.
22:24
Speaking of hunger, I think both, I've shared this with both
22:26
of you that I have a neighbor who, you know, like politically
22:31
and ideologically, I don't know that we have a ton in common
22:36
when we think through kind of a Western lens of like social
22:39
justice values and social justice ways of being.
22:43
But over time, right, like what I've noticed is that within the
22:48
scope of whatever she can provide, she is so giving.
22:53
And there have been periods of my work life where things have
22:55
been super hectic. I haven't had a lot of time to
22:59
cook. And she will leave meals for me
23:03
in my red well container outside my door frequently multiple
23:08
times a week. And she's not keeping track of
23:11
how many meals she's providing for me.
23:14
And when I share that with people, right?
23:15
Like when I share that with people, the fact that, you know,
23:19
she feeds meal pretty regularly and then occasionally I like
23:22
help her out by hanging out with her kids, which is honestly
23:25
helping me out because I love kids and it's good for my mental
23:28
health to be with them. Most white folks that I share
23:32
that with, they'll say to me, oh, so you're babysitting for
23:37
free? Yeah.
23:43
Why are you babysitting for free?
23:48
And I, I just, and I'm like, how do you, how do you want me to
23:53
quantify the value of spending an hour at the park with two, by
24:00
the way, very well behaved kids. They're all breaking things.
24:05
They're not being like noisy, they're just being kids.
24:08
They're having fun and I get to be a part of that.
24:10
How do how do you want me to quantify what should I be
24:14
getting paid for this? Right.
24:17
And I hear the same thing. People will ask me.
24:20
They're like, Oh my gosh, you're such a good cheerleader for so
24:23
and so, you know, like you should think about charging a
24:27
referral fee. Yeah.
24:31
Have you thought of charging a referral fee for sending people
24:36
work or making connections that end up becoming productive?
24:44
So Lars, what is the referral fee that you will be giving to
24:47
me? Yeah.
24:49
Well, I mean that I think like for both of your examples, the
24:56
center is intrinsic trust. Like if we are living in true
25:03
mutual responsibility, to your point, holla, then I am trusting
25:08
that when, when we are sharing our resources in any capacity,
25:14
that that's just it, that the trust is there.
25:17
I remember when I went to Morocco this summer, I, my mind
25:22
as a white person indoctrinated in the United States culture was
25:26
blown when someone I was spending time with was like,
25:30
next time you come to Morocco, just show up.
25:33
Don't make a plan on where you're going to stay, what
25:35
you're going to eat. Just show up and talk to people,
25:38
and people are going to put you up.
25:40
And I started crying because I was, I like my body.
25:43
I could not fathom that form of cultural generosity and the
25:50
amount of alizeness that exists culturally because that is the
25:54
cornerstone. Yeah, like it really.
25:59
It really changed what I thought was, you know, it's like in the
26:03
United States for like reading books on mutual aid, we're like
26:07
trying to strategize it. We're trying to figure it out.
26:09
We think and think and think it. And then you step step into
26:12
cultures where that is censure central.
26:15
And it's just the softening that it does to the system is
26:19
incredible. And it's just, it's literal
26:21
trust. I just want that for everybody.
26:26
Yeah, everybody does feel that. And I, I mean, it's a big part
26:29
of the Arab culture. It's a big part of Indian
26:31
culture where, yeah, like your home and your heart can always
26:38
make. A little bit.
26:39
Of room for another person. You know, it's not uncommon.
26:46
It's not an uncommon to have people come and stay with you
26:50
and you just make space. You just make.
26:53
Things my my grandma, my Tata, she taught me food that was made
26:58
for two can feed four, and if it can feed 4, it can feed 8.
27:04
And like that expansive view on like, what's enough?
27:10
Was. Very much a cornerstone of my of
27:13
my learning. You're saying that really makes
27:29
makes me miss my grandmother, which is not this.
27:32
This is not the conversation that we set out on.
27:35
And I just, I mean, not everything is incredible.
27:43
I would say about our cultures. There is also really deep
27:47
patriarchy. There is also a lot of misogyny,
27:50
but I, I think that there is a kind of like sharing and
27:54
reciprocity and that it happens without keeping tabs and the
28:00
idea that you can just pass it on.
28:02
I don't have to be reciprocal with you for feeding me lamb
28:06
chops. I might feed somebody else the
28:08
next day. And we're, none of us is keeping
28:13
tabs about how it's moving, right?
28:14
Because we're, we're responsible for everybody, right?
28:17
We're collectively responsible for the world that we want to
28:20
live in. And yeah, and, and where I have
28:24
struggled is like, how do we convince our peers to take those
28:28
ideas to? Work.
28:31
How do we put them to work at work?
28:34
How do we create that, you know, mutuality in places where we're
28:39
so conditioned to compete? Yeah, and you know what we do is
28:43
we make a policy about it. Not the policy I.
28:48
Mean we, right? I mean like we do, we regulate
28:52
it, you know, and it's sad because there's so much longing
28:58
behind that. I think there's so there's so
29:01
much need for connection, for mutuality, but just where we are
29:07
in late stage capitalism is like, OK, we got to regulate it.
29:09
We got to create the policy. I think DEI is a really
29:13
interesting example of this where if we look at hiring, you
29:17
know, it's like we have diverse slates bias training the, you
29:24
know, structured interviews in theory and service of of making
29:29
hiring equitable. And at the same time, and at the
29:33
end of the day, at it's just relationships, like the thing
29:36
that we're trying to like policy into actually requires human
29:42
connection, but we are perpetually avoiding that
29:45
through the policies we create. And we saw that with NFL, you
29:49
know, just hiring a bunch of. White Coaches.
29:56
Yeah. And but, but it's the kind of
29:58
like creating this like narrative of that they are
30:01
hiring people of color, they are interviewing.
30:04
People, they're interviewing people of color.
30:06
Yeah. So that's.
30:08
Where I go right away is like, where does it show up at work?
30:12
It's it's enforcement and like, what are we going to do with
30:16
that? You know, like how can we shift
30:19
together in that? It's it's really impossible
30:22
conditions. I don't know how I like how
30:25
you've experienced some of those elements around hiring and and
30:29
like what what's happening there for us.
30:33
Yeah, it's so interesting because.
30:38
I think. This is my experience and, and I
30:41
think some of the data that Aparna has shared recently makes
30:45
me feel a little bit validated in my experience, but it feels
30:48
like it's all a facade. Like all of the job listings
30:52
feel like a facade. All of the apply for a job feels
30:55
like a facade. Even, you know, going through
30:59
the process of a screening call or whatever feels like a facade
31:03
because it feels like the person that they are wanting to hire
31:05
with the saturation that's happening in the market of tech
31:09
workers. Look at I I speak from a tech
31:10
workers perspective. So when my cat is breaking
31:15
things. Yeah, it's a cat.
31:17
I think from a tech workers perspective, but there's so many
31:21
people out there looking for the same roles and it almost feels
31:27
like the organizations have already decided who they're
31:29
going to hire when they post a role, A job listing, but they
31:32
have to post a job listing. So it just feels so disingenuous
31:38
and dishonest and harmful and it hits your confidence and it's
31:42
like being in an abusive relationship because you're
31:45
like, I'll just apply to this one more, you know, and you
31:47
already know that it's probably going to be just the same.
31:50
And, and I think it's, it's really hard.
31:53
It's an uphill battle actually, I think to get to the point
31:55
where we're able to create some of that change within these
31:58
orgs. And that's something we need to
32:00
acknowledge. It's not just like, hey, guys
32:02
like practice mutual aid and help each other and everything's
32:06
going to be fixed because the system is rigged to Orient you
32:09
towards looking out for yourself and towards quote UN quote
32:15
winning and competition. And so it's, I think in some, to
32:20
some degree, I think some of it is going to be about when you
32:24
are a person of color and you or a marginalized person and you
32:28
believe in and you buy into the these concepts, then you are in
32:32
the position of power to make some of these decisions, make
32:35
these decisions, You know, just just do it.
32:37
That's, that's just like, that's number one, just do it, make the
32:40
decisions that you know, are going to actually help people in
32:43
your community or people feel like they're and actually
32:46
experience more equitable process.
32:49
The other thing is, I kind of think if you've seen, I mean,
32:53
I'm a part of a group called Tech for Palestine and
32:55
Entrepreneurs for Palestine. And a lot of the work that is
32:58
being done there is creating alternatives to some of the big
33:02
tech platforms. Because a lot of us have felt
33:04
like we can't continue to participate in technology that
33:07
we know is contributing to genocide or contributing to
33:10
oppression or surveillance technology, weapons technology.
33:14
And so we want, but we have solutions that we need in our
33:16
lives, technology that we need in our lives.
33:18
And so a lot of people are taking the initiative to create
33:20
alternative took and alternative platforms.
33:23
And I feel like a part of that too.
33:26
The analogy there is like, let's create alternative cultures,
33:28
alternative organizations. So if you are a person who
33:32
believes that the culture needs to change and you have the power
33:37
and the ability and the resource to create your own organization,
33:40
to create your own company to whatever it is, then bring that
33:44
culture change. Let it be embedded in the fabric
33:47
of how you do. Your org.
33:49
Yeah, again, it's not like it's intuitive or you know, a quick
33:52
fix, but it's, it's a way that you can take your resource,
33:56
which you have and and apply it and share it with others.
34:00
Shout out to Upscrolled actually such a great example and this I
34:06
actually like. Heard this at the Tech for
34:10
Palestine Summit where the CEO was talking about like I could I
34:16
have the skills to make a social media app that keeps you online.
34:21
Like I can write that algorithm in my sleep.
34:24
But instead what I'm going to do is I'm going to create a social
34:27
media app that connects you to your loved ones, gives you just
34:32
enough information that you need and gets you back out in the
34:34
world. And they went from like 120,000
34:39
people to now I think 5 million people on the platform overnight
34:43
after TikTok, you know, did their corruption.
34:47
And so, yeah, like, I think I just want to shout them out
34:51
because they're such a great example of that, of like what
34:54
you, what you can do when you're choosing, it's collective care
34:59
and, and using the skills that you have to better the world.
35:02
And we want that. Yeah, we want that.
35:05
As you both have been talking, there's two, there's two things
35:08
that have come up for me. One, Holly, you know, you talked
35:11
about these ghost job postings. And there's been a lot of
35:15
chatter on blind and on Reddit that companies like Indeed and
35:19
Glassdoor and even LinkedIn are creating, encouraging employers
35:23
to create these ghost postings to collect the data on the kind
35:27
of worker that's looking for a job right now, which is so
35:31
gross, which is so gross. And I I think that for
35:37
organizations that do these kinds of things.
35:41
It's so cruel. In my opinion, to put an already
35:45
marginalized person through all of the hoops of the resume
35:48
screens. And y'all, at our level, we're
35:51
not just doing the resume screens and like 2 rounds of
35:53
interviews. No, we're doing like day long
35:55
interview loops. We're doing presentations,
35:57
there's panels, you're creating content, you're analyzing data.
36:00
You're doing a ton of work right for a senior role that you're
36:03
applying for a mid career role that you're applying for when
36:07
the hiring manager already has a person in mind and they already
36:11
are going to give that job to that person.
36:13
And the cruelty of extracting the time and the energy and the
36:17
emotional labour and also the ideas, right?
36:21
Like the actual like labour of a person who is probably far more
36:27
stressed. They're like safety net is
36:28
probably a way smaller already. So that's one thing about the
36:32
cruelty of how what's being encouraged.
36:36
But when you were talking about DEI specifically, I was just, I,
36:40
I wrote down this thing on my note.
36:43
I said DEI without mutuality becomes status threat.
36:53
DEI without mutuality becomes status threat.
36:56
And what have we seen in the last five or six years is that
37:00
there was this 18 month period where people of color, queer and
37:04
trans folks, right, like folks with multiple marginalized
37:08
identities were for just a moment put on a pedestal, right?
37:13
And it wasn't rooted in care, It wasn't rooted in mutuality.
37:17
It was rooted in PR, and what it created was a lot of people with
37:26
dominant identities feeling like their ability to move and
37:33
progress in an organization was under threat, that they were not
37:37
getting opportunities because they were Black or brown or
37:40
queer or a woman. And what it has resulted in, and
37:44
we have all seen it and felt it in such a tremendous and acute
37:49
way over the past year, specifically as Trump has come
37:51
into office. And the politic around any of
37:55
those alphabet soup, right, whether it's DEI or Jedi or DIP,
38:01
is that there seems to be an implicit agreement that you do,
38:06
you don't offer opportunities to people with marginalized
38:11
identities. And I am watching as my friends
38:14
that are queer and trans not get hired.
38:16
And I think to myself, oh, is it because half the states in
38:20
America are unsafe for this individual?
38:22
So you don't want to hire somebody that might not be able
38:25
to travel places for work, right?
38:27
Like, we've watched our friends that are Arab not get jobs, not
38:31
get promoted and or get fired just simply for being Arab and
38:36
also specifically for being Palestinian, right?
38:39
We're having proximity to Palestine.
38:43
We're seeing. Yeah.
38:45
So I just like, that's kind of where my mind went, is we're
38:49
seeing behaviours that come from status threat because our work
38:55
of DEI was never rooted in collective care.
39:00
No, it was performative. It was tokenization and
39:04
performative. And that that harms everybody,
39:07
that harms the marginalized communities, and then it harms
39:10
everybody collectively because there then is a backlash.
39:15
Yeah. Lars, what's coming up for you?
39:20
Senior Director of DEI formerly. And there's actually like tears
39:27
in my eyes and I think. Yeah, I think you summarized it
39:36
really well, Aparna that like when when we are trying to rig
39:45
the game while selling hyper competition and individuality
39:50
like this, this is where identity politics go completely
39:55
wrong and it's an impossible job for ADEI person.
40:00
You know, like it's, it's a, it's, it's a really weird
40:04
position to be put into. And there's some good that you
40:08
can do. You can stop harm, you can stop,
40:10
you know, people from getting fired.
40:12
You can, you know, there's, there's good things.
40:16
But when it comes to programmatically trying to shift
40:23
the system under these conditions to both of your
40:26
points, like there's nowhere to go.
40:30
And it is it is has nothing to do about the actual cultural
40:35
substance that we can be learning and changing our
40:38
cultures around. That doesn't happen through
40:42
program. It happens through recognition
40:45
of the person next to you is full humanity and an interest in
40:49
their well-being and in their ways of thinking and what their
40:53
what value they bring and what they want to leave with the
40:57
world. It's a completely different
40:58
conversation than advancement strategy, you know, So yeah,
41:05
it's, it's it's a really painful bypass.
41:12
So I want to I want to move on. We totally did stay with the
41:17
script, but I do want to ask you something that I wrote down as I
41:22
was scripting this, which is what would it look like if we,
41:27
as women, people of color, immigrants, we're trans folks?
41:30
I mean, the invitation is open to everybody.
41:31
But let's start with ourselves operated with mutuality, right?
41:37
We're not asking for charity. How do we build something that
41:44
liberates us and isn't just a rebrand of the same systems of
41:50
extraction that we see other people playing out?
41:56
I think it's so incremental and it's like small, small things
42:01
that lead to bigger cultural change.
42:04
But I think that it starts with individuals within organizations
42:10
doing the things that they know are right.
42:13
I mean, we've all been in an in an organization in a situation
42:16
where we're like, this is wrong. This person is getting a this
42:20
kind of performance review because there's a quota that
42:23
says this many people can be called exceeds expectations.
42:26
And so I have to put them in the like doesn't meet expectations
42:30
bucket or whatever, because there's a quota.
42:33
So we can speak up against practices that we know are
42:36
wrong. We can do the hard thing.
42:39
We can promote people that we know.
42:42
I've been doing good work, you know, and, and not fall prey to
42:46
the whole like hyper competitive culture and structure.
42:51
And that might mean that that we don't get as far as maybe we
42:55
would have if we would have stepped on somebody else's
42:57
shoulders. You know, and, and, and, and I
43:00
think there's a big question here for a lot of people in
43:03
these industries with like inflated pay and inflated even
43:07
sense of entitlement of like what I should be getting by
43:10
working at a big org like this. Like, can we be real with each
43:13
other about what's enough, what's good enough?
43:17
Can I root myself in what's good enough and be like, I'm, I'm
43:20
content, I'm good where I'm at? And so I'm going to your earlier
43:23
question. I might have to quote UN quote,
43:26
sacrifice something or, you know, put something at risk in
43:30
order to do what I know is right for the collective and for the
43:33
group. I also think little things like
43:35
establishing communities of practice within organizations is
43:39
a way for people to start to practice community, right?
43:43
Whether it's communities of practice around a technical
43:45
concept, like let's all get together and like learn this
43:48
technology once a week together or whatever.
43:52
But it starts to establish a sense of reciprocity.
43:55
And like you'll do it this week. I'll present next week, you
43:58
know, and it's and it's not for the purpose of a work goal that
44:03
we've been incentivized by, but rather establishing more meaning
44:07
and and kind of creating opportunities for that with an
44:10
ORC. So just a couple of.
44:12
Ideas Lars with When I said that we might cry later, I was just
44:19
joking. Yeah, like what?
44:24
What is on the other side of self advocacy?
44:26
I think I want to speak to to that piece as someone, as I
44:33
shared, like fully indoctrinated into this culture.
44:37
And something that I'm learning is that one, the playbook
44:45
already exists when you are a white collar worker.
44:52
Tala's earlier point, you know, we like to pretend like we're
44:56
creating everything and do a pretty poor job at citing who
45:01
we've learned from and who we're taking from.
45:04
And I think one thing that we can rest into in this topic is
45:08
that this this already this the the models exist in the world.
45:15
Companies, there are companies that exist that are doing it
45:18
differently. There are entire cultures that
45:21
are doing this, and there are radical humans.
45:28
Who? Exist in this culture who are
45:31
actively fighting for the counterculture that exists.
45:34
And so we can rest into the fact that if we just step outside of
45:41
the by design isolation that our class privilege and our white
45:46
collar material privilege creates, we can actually just
45:51
kind of learn. And why that's important is
45:57
under the framing of obsession of yourself advocacy, you can
46:02
take some of the pressure off. You know, like white collar
46:06
workers are one of the most anxious people in the world
46:10
because there's so much pressure because you're doing it all by
46:13
yourself and you have to do all these things and do the dance
46:15
and like say it the right way and all of that.
46:20
And this there's actually this path can offer less pressure in
46:24
your life. And to Holla's point, there's
46:27
also that means like letting a little bit of risk come through.
46:33
And how do we do that inside of a corporation where that system
46:36
already exists? I think the relationships is
46:38
where we start and getting connected to other
46:44
organizations, you know, always come back to Tech Workers
46:48
Coalition that exists to help us try to find these models.
46:52
But you, you literally can't do it yourself.
46:56
And I think the last thing I'll say part of my soapbox is I'm
47:02
actually thinking about another thing that you said at the very
47:05
beginning of the podcast. Follow around like using your
47:08
path where like there's the playbook already exists and we
47:13
have a unique amount of access power and influence in literally
47:19
what is happening in the world everywhere.
47:22
And I think once we start to share that responsibility with
47:26
our neighbor, with our Co worker, then things start to
47:29
widen a little bit like mutual, mutual responsibility shifts
47:33
when you actually recognize that you're responsible.
47:37
And these are all like very beginning steps to making change
47:42
possible. So yeah, that's.
47:45
That's what's coming up for me. Maybe I'll cry too.
47:51
You should try. It you should try.
47:54
OK, you both know me and you know that that is never going to
47:57
happen publicly, ever. I only cry in my car, literally.
48:03
You know, I, Lars, like you and I, I think last year I shared
48:06
with you like this phase that I went through where I was so
48:09
angry because I had come out of my sabbatical and I thought that
48:12
all of the people that had advocated for champion would
48:15
step up and do the same for me. I just was like depressed and
48:20
angry and I felt humiliated. And I think you might have
48:25
actually asked me. You were like, well, then like,
48:30
why do you keep doing this for other people if you're, it's not
48:32
coming back to you? It was.
48:36
And I just, you know, and I've been asked that question many,
48:40
many times and I now like I'm, I feel like I'm in a much more
48:47
grounded place. And I think the truth is for me
48:50
that I don't want to live in a world where we stop doing that
48:54
for other people just because it isn't coming back to us.
48:59
I just don't want to live in that world.
49:01
I don't want to live in the world I will do the free child
49:04
care for my neighbors because I don't want to live in a world
49:10
where a mom can't ask me to watch her kids for an hour so
49:15
she can get something else done. And we already know what the
49:27
likely future looks like. We have like we have ample post
49:34
apocalyptic, you know, sci-fi fiction books, right?
49:38
We have like we have Octavia Butler's prophecy in the form of
49:44
a parable of the sower and we know what this possible and
49:48
likely on our current trajectory future looks like.
49:52
And when I read those books, I'm just like, I don't actually want
49:55
this. I don't want to live in this
49:56
world. Also, I don't want to eat rats
49:59
or maybe like, rabbits and acorn flour bread.
50:04
Like, I love my white flour bread.
50:07
I would like for us to continue to grow wheat so I can have
50:11
that, you know? Yeah.
50:15
I just. Yeah.
50:17
I feel like mutuality is a pathway to living in a world
50:21
that we like, and we like ourselves in that world as well.
50:28
Halloween End every episode with asking people one sort of take
50:34
away and one invitation of what a listener should do now that
50:39
they've listened to us for almost an hour and yeah, we can
50:47
take a second. What's a take away and what's 1
50:50
sort of, let's say concrete ish action?
50:53
I think a take away that I have continued to try to embed in
50:58
people's brains, like even through the community work,
51:02
through Yahada and through bringing people together and
51:04
having a lot of the action and the events be driven by people,
51:11
is for people to understand that they have power.
51:14
We have such an issue of really believing that I can do
51:19
something and giving people that sense that you have power, you
51:25
can think of a thought and you can make it happen in the world.
51:28
You have that power. I think it's so important.
51:33
I think and I, I don't stick to rules.
51:36
So here's my second take away is that live a life outside of your
51:43
work. Really, really, really live a
51:47
life outside of your work because work and corporations
51:52
and companies and capitalism will have you thinking that that
51:54
is your reason for being. And then you if you lose that
51:59
which we're all going to at some point, if you haven't already,
52:02
like there will be will be in cycles where.
52:06
You lose. That access and that security
52:09
and you must be able to know that you can.
52:11
Survive. Outside of who?
52:13
You are at work and then an action I guess is like take
52:21
initiatives, like take initiative today with a small
52:23
thing, something that you can do for somebody else and just do
52:27
it. Something I'm taking away from
52:30
spending time with you both in this episode is and something
52:36
that I am like trying to unlearn that I think also is interesting
52:41
as a practice for the next week is track.
52:47
Try to track less about what you give or you take and focus more
52:52
on what you're sharing and just see what that feels like to let
53:00
generosity let reciprocity just kind of like live in your body a
53:07
little bit. Like truly somatically like.
53:09
And this is something that I've been practicing the past like
53:12
month is trying to let generosity like actually build
53:16
in my body. And I've found that when it is,
53:20
I feel a lot wider, like possibility is way wider.
53:25
Connecting with people feels different.
53:29
So unintentionally, I guess I'm offering a somatic exercise of
53:33
like connect to the difference of give versus take and let
53:38
sharing, whatever that core word is.
53:42
Spend a little time in your body and see what happens.
53:44
See how you interact with people at work.
53:46
See what you value and play. You know, my take away was going
53:53
to be unlearning as well, but I think let me start with the
53:59
action, which is notice when you choose not to do something for
54:05
somebody when you easily could have, you could have made a
54:08
different choice, right? And ask yourself why?
54:13
Is it because that person annoys you?
54:15
Is it because they didn't come to your birthday or they didn't
54:18
get you a gift or like what it like, what is it?
54:22
Maybe they're not a cat person and but when there are moments
54:28
where you could easily, yeah, we don't we don't want those
54:31
people. But just notice that, right.
54:36
Like notice when you don't want to help somebody, but helping
54:39
them would be super easy. Saying somebody's name in a
54:42
room, super easy. Just notice that yeah.
54:46
And I think my own take away is finding my identity outside of
54:51
work. Like, I have really struggled
54:53
with it. And this week a, a really dear
54:57
friend is here from out of town. And we were, you know, walking
54:59
around and we walked into a yarn store.
55:02
And then I realized that she can knit things, like real things.
55:06
And she's like, why don't you take a knitting class?
55:08
And I was like, oh, I don't have time for this, but I used to
55:12
love to knit as a kid. I was like knitting constantly.
55:15
And. And the resistance to not have a
55:21
life outside of work is, yeah, it's like a a real struggle.
55:25
So with that, I'm going to bring us to a close.
55:28
This was our eighth episode of the Circle Back Club Friends.
55:33
We talked about so many things. The myth of self advocacy,
55:38
naming the girl boss. Can I just call it the girl Boss
55:41
industrial complex, Right. We talked about Rachel aid at
55:48
work as a practice. We talked about how it's not
55:51
charity and how we look out for each other.
55:55
Hella, I love you. Thank you, Thank you for your
55:58
friends, for you. Thank you for your fierce love
56:01
for community, your wisdom. You have the biggest heart.
56:05
And also thank you for giving me a new nephew because it's, you
56:09
know, the auntie life just loves the new addition.
56:13
So. He's the sweetest Lars.
56:16
He's like, honestly, he came to my house and he was like, this
56:20
is my first night here and I was like, you can see forever.
56:30
So thank you for being here with us.
56:32
Thank you so much, it was such a pleasure.
56:37
And guess what, in our next episode, Yeah, well, actually in
56:44
our next episode, we are going to talk about I think really
56:48
spending a little bit time, little bit more time on the cost
56:51
of not living into what we've talked about today.
56:54
We're going to talk about the way that white collar jobs
56:57
isolate us and create loneliness by design, of course, where
57:03
you're going to get into the data, the stories.
57:05
So if it's something that you've felt, something you want to
57:08
learn more about, subscribe so you don't miss it and can't wait
57:11
to learn with you. And if this episode mattered to
57:14
you, if it made you cry, share it with somebody in your life
57:18
who has worked really hard at all of the quote UN quote right
57:21
things and still hit a wall. And, you know, reach out to us.
57:27
You can e-mail us at hello at circle back dot club.
57:31
You can invite us to have some of these conversations in your
57:33
company. I'm signing off.
57:36
This has been Aparna. I'm Lars.
57:39
And we'll circle back.