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Andy Stanley - Great Leaders Ask Great Questions, Part 2 · Andy Stanley Sermons

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  Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a
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  Speaker 1: conversation designed to help leaders go further faster. Today is
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  Speaker 1: the sixth episode of a special series based on my book,
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  Speaker 1: What Great Leaders Do. And leading the conversation is my co-host,
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  Speaker 1: Holly Goddard. Holly's been a part of our organization for
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  Speaker 1: 15 years. She has led a variety of teams, and
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  Speaker 1: currently she serves as the chief of staff at our
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  Speaker 1: largest campus. Yep.
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  Speaker 2: Like I always say, so happy to be on the bus,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm loving these conversations. I'm loving reading this book.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm and processing it with you. And each episode,
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  Speaker 2: we're highlighting an essential. So we've talked about a couple
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  Speaker 2: at this point. We've talked about how the first essential
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  Speaker 2: is you gotta lead yourself well. And then great leaders,
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  Speaker 2: they play to their strengths. And last time, we started
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  Speaker 2: talking about how great leaders ask great questions. So we're
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  Speaker 2: going to pick that up today. We learned last time
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  Speaker 2: that you've got to create a culture of curiosity. You've
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  Speaker 2: got to use questions as invitations. And that we need
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  Speaker 2: to check out what our frequently asked questions are. Still
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  Speaker 2: got to do that. But today, we're going to get
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  Speaker 2: really practical. And I love these questions that you give us.
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  Speaker 2: You give us three questions. that you say these have
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  Speaker 2: been chasing you around for years.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, one of them almost 40 years. I've been asking
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  Speaker 1: this question, I know.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I love that. And you have a couple of
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  Speaker 2: these framed in your office. Yeah. Yeah, they hang there.
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  Speaker 1: Two of them are framed in my office. They follow
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  Speaker 1: me around. And then one of them, as you know,
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  Speaker 1: is actually literally painted on the walls in several of
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  Speaker 1: our office suites. So this is real life stuff.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, this isn't just stuff you teach. We live by
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  Speaker 2: this stuff. It's informed how you think and it informs
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  Speaker 2: how our organization thinks.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I remember this first one. You emailed this to me
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  Speaker 2: years ago, and you said, hey, you should sit with
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  Speaker 2: this question. And now I understand why, because it's a
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  Speaker 2: really big question. The first one is this. It says,
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  Speaker 2: what do you believe is impossible to do in your field,
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  Speaker 2: but if it could be done, would fundamentally change your business?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I bumped into this question. It's not original
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  Speaker 1: with me. Back in 1992, an author named Joel Barker
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  Speaker 1: published a book. The first title, the first time it
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  Speaker 1: was published, it was Future Edge, subtitled Discovering the New
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  Speaker 1: Paradigms for Success. Apparently, nobody liked that title because they
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  Speaker 1: pretty quickly re-released the book under a different title. And
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  Speaker 1: so for our podcast listeners, this is a book about paradigms.
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  Speaker 1: And a paradigm, as most people know, is a framework
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  Speaker 1: that we kind of get locked into, and it becomes
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  Speaker 1: a framework for problem-solving. Every industry has paradigms. Families have paradigms.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, they're everywhere. And they're just assumptions. And sometimes
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  Speaker 1: they're assumptions that haven't been questioned for a long time.
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  Speaker 1: But again, they become a framework that determine how decisions
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  Speaker 1: are made and how problems are solved. It's kind of
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  Speaker 1: standard operating procedure. Anyway, so I'm reading this book. I
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  Speaker 1: was 33 years old. So it's been a minute. On
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  Speaker 1: page 156. You remember where it was. Because that page
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  Speaker 1: is so dog-eared and there's so many notes in the margin.
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  Speaker 1: Page 156 is where I bumped into this question. And Holly,
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  Speaker 1: I literally closed the book and then opened a blank
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  Speaker 1: page at the beginning of the book and just started
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  Speaker 1: taking notes. But anyway, I'm going to read a couple
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  Speaker 1: of paragraphs from the book because it kind of sets
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  Speaker 1: up sort of the juice in this question. Barker writes this.
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  Speaker 1: He says, he talks about paradigm paralysis. He says, paradigm
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  Speaker 1: paralysis is has profound implications for innovation within an organization
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  Speaker 1: because internal innovation is difficult to stimulate because a paradigm
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  Speaker 1: or a framework is already in place. He says, so
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  Speaker 1: when there's already a paradigm, then we're sort of locked in.
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  Speaker 1: We're sort of having to work off this within this framework.
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  Speaker 1: Denise writes this. He says, paradigm pliancy, the opposite, is
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  Speaker 1: the opposite of paradigm paralysis. It is the purposeful seeking
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  Speaker 1: out of new ways of doing things. It is an
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  Speaker 1: active behavior in which you challenge your paradigms on a
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  Speaker 1: regular basis by asking the paradigm shift question. And again,
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  Speaker 1: this is within the context of questions leaders ask. And
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  Speaker 1: then he gives us the paradigm shift question. And this
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  Speaker 1: was the question that rocked my world and has been
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  Speaker 1: sitting somewhere in my office ever since. Here's the paradigm
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  Speaker 1: shift question. You read it earlier.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: What do I believe is impossible to do in my field,
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  Speaker 1: but if it could be done, would fundamentally change my business?
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  Speaker 1: And I think the reason this captured my attention when
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  Speaker 1: it did is that I had discovered, I didn't have
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  Speaker 1: this language, but there was a question I'd been wrestling
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  Speaker 1: with in my business, the church business, if you can
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  Speaker 1: call it that. that had bugged me for some time.
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  Speaker 1: And I thought if there was ever a way to
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  Speaker 1: do this differently, it would fundamentally change my business. So
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  Speaker 1: I wrote the question down. I did not have an answer.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, it really seemed impossible to do. And then
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  Speaker 1: a few years later, and I tell the story in
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  Speaker 1: the book, a few years later, an opportunity came along.
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  Speaker 1: And because that question was front and center for me
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  Speaker 1: and our team, we realized this isn't just an opportunity.
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  Speaker 1: This may be, this just may be something that formerly
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  Speaker 1: was considered impossible to do. And as it turned out,
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  Speaker 1: it opened up opportunities. Again, we won't go through it today.
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  Speaker 1: But anyway, it was so life-changing. I've kept that question
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  Speaker 1: front and center. And the reason it's so important for
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  Speaker 1: every leader to keep front and center, I think, in
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  Speaker 1: my opinion, is In most cases, any individual company or
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  Speaker 1: the people listening today are probably not going to be
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  Speaker 1: able to crack the nut on the question itself. But
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  Speaker 1: if we're not asking the question, we're not looking for
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  Speaker 1: an answer. And when the answer comes along, we won't
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  Speaker 1: recognize it. And worse, not only will we not recognize it,
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  Speaker 1: we will be critical of it. And he talks about
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  Speaker 1: this in the book because it will be outside of
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  Speaker 1: our framework. It won't make any sense. That's not how
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  Speaker 1: it's done. That's not how we do it. That won't work.
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  Speaker 1: And so the other way he says it in the book,
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  Speaker 1: he says, what are the problems all of your peers
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  Speaker 1: want to solve but haven't the slightest idea of how
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  Speaker 1: to do it? And the point is, if we're not
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  Speaker 1: asking the question, we won't recognize the answer when somebody
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  Speaker 1: else comes up with the answer. Because oftentimes, and there
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  Speaker 1: are multiple examples of this in the marketplace, The first
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  Speaker 1: person to come up with the answer isn't always the
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  Speaker 1: one that is able to scale it to the point
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  Speaker 1: where they become famous for the answer to the question
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  Speaker 1: because discovering it and scaling it are two different things.
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  Speaker 1: So we want to be in a position as organizations
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  Speaker 1: to where we're asking that question, whatever that is. And
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  Speaker 1: the question is different for different companies and different industries.
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  Speaker 1: But again– What do the people who do what you
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  Speaker 1: do consider impossible? What's the question that seems impossible to answer?
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  Speaker 1: What's the thing that's impossible to do? But if it
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  Speaker 1: could be done, would not tweak, but would fundamentally change
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  Speaker 1: your business? It is such a big, open-ended, intimidating question.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a big question. I've had to sit
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  Speaker 2: with that for weeks. And it's really hard to come
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  Speaker 2: up with an answer because it kind of breaks your
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  Speaker 2: brain a little bit, which is the point.
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  Speaker 1: It pushes you outside. the paradigm, because we only ask
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  Speaker 1: questions within the framework of possibility. But this is, I
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  Speaker 1: love this quote, and this is from the book. He's
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  Speaker 1: quoting James Baldwin, who said, those who say it can't
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  Speaker 1: be done are usually interrupted by others doing it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the quote that kind of rattled my cage, too,
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  Speaker 2: because that's why it's important that you learn to think
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  Speaker 2: this way, because somebody is. And I love that you're
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  Speaker 2: doing that from the top, because it allows us as
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  Speaker 2: an organization to to do that and have those kind
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  Speaker 2: of conversations.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it goes back to what we said last time.
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  Speaker 1: This is why curiosity is so important in an organization.
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  Speaker 1: And we dare not cap curiosity because somebody in a
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  Speaker 1: different generation that is not locked into our framework. And
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  Speaker 1: this is why one of our values from the very
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  Speaker 1: beginning has been listen to outsiders, listen to outsiders, meaning
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  Speaker 1: we work within the framework of what we do as
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  Speaker 1: an organization and But there are people who are in
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  Speaker 1: different organizations who may have solutions to our problems, but
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  Speaker 1: because they're outside of our framework. So listen to outsiders,
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  Speaker 1: listen to outsiders. So anyway.
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  Speaker 2: Wow, that's really helpful.
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  Speaker 1: It's a big, intimidating question.
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  Speaker 2: It is, but a really necessary one. It'll stretch your thinking.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, this next one. This one will force you to
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  Speaker 2: get really honest. The second question is this. What would
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  Speaker 2: the next leader do? That's kind of hard to ask.
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  Speaker 2: So why did you embrace this question?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So once again, this question came from a book
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  Speaker 1: I read. I was in a bookstore. I'm in the
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  Speaker 1: leadership management section just looking for something to read. And
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  Speaker 1: I saw this title, Only the Paranoid Survive.
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  Speaker 2: That's a great title.
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  Speaker 1: It's a great title. Yeah. Who wouldn't pick that up?
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  Speaker 1: The subtitle, How to Exploit the Crisis Points that Challenge
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  Speaker 1: Every Company by Andrew Grove or Andy Grove, as his
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  Speaker 1: friends refer to him. So Andy Grove was Intel, the
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  Speaker 1: computer chip makers, third employee and became Intel's third CEO.
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  Speaker 1: And so this is the story of him, again, taking
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  Speaker 1: Intel out of their core business into a different business.
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  Speaker 1: And here's the back story. This is amazing. In the 1970s,
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  Speaker 1: Intel owned almost 100% of the computer chip manufacturing in
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  Speaker 1: the world, an American-based company. Of course, in the 70s,
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  Speaker 1: there wasn't the demand that there is today for that
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  Speaker 1: kind of thing. Then in the 80s, the Japanese entered
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  Speaker 1: the market. Several Japanese companies entered the market. the market,
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  Speaker 1: but they had the backing of the Japanese government. So
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  Speaker 1: they had endless funding just pouring into these small Japanese startups.
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  Speaker 1: So now Andy Grove and his team find themselves competing
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  Speaker 1: basically with the nation of Japan in terms of financing,
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  Speaker 1: and they can't keep up. They would make their chips faster.
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  Speaker 1: Japan makes them even faster. Intel makes their smaller. Japanese
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  Speaker 1: make them even smaller. So in the book, he says
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  Speaker 1: they flooded the market and the handwriting was on the wall.
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  Speaker 1: There was just no way to keep up. And then
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  Speaker 1: he writes this. He confesses as he says it. He says,
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  Speaker 1: in hindsight, our priorities were formed by our identity. After all,
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  Speaker 1: memories were us. So this is all they knew were
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  Speaker 1: making memory chips. They can't keep up. So there's an
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  Speaker 1: identity crisis. We'll come back to that in a minute
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  Speaker 1: because their whole identity as a company was around a
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  Speaker 1: specific product, which is always a problem. And then at
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  Speaker 1: this part of the book, after years and years of
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  Speaker 1: all this struggle, he writes the following. I just want
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  Speaker 1: to read this. And this leads to where the question
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  Speaker 1: came from. He writes, I remember a time in the
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  Speaker 1: middle of 1985. after this aimless wandering had been going
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  Speaker 1: on for almost a year, I was in my office
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  Speaker 1: in Santa, his office is from Santa Clara, California. I
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  Speaker 1: was in my office with Intel's chairman and CEO, Gordon Moore,
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  Speaker 1: and we were discussing our quandary. So they just, they
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  Speaker 1: can't figure out what to do. They've tried everything. He writes,
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  Speaker 1: our mood was downbeat. I looked out the window at
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  Speaker 1: the Ferris wheel of the great American amusement park revolving
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  Speaker 1: in the distance. And then I turned back to Gordon
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  Speaker 1: and I asked, and the following morning, few sentences are
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  Speaker 1: literally what are printed and framed in my office. They
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  Speaker 1: have been chasing me around since I was in my
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  Speaker 1: 30s when I read this book. Here's what he writes.
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  Speaker 1: He says to Gordon Moore, the CEO, he says, if
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  Speaker 1: we got kicked out and the board brought in a
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  Speaker 1: new CEO, what do you think he would do? And
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  Speaker 1: Gordon answered immediately. This is what he writes. Gordon answered
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  Speaker 1: without hesitation. When he asked that question, what would the
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  Speaker 1: next group do? There was immediate clarity. Gordon answered without hesitation,
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  Speaker 1: he would get us out of memories. The new guy
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  Speaker 1: who came in to take our place would get us
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  Speaker 1: out of our fundamental business. Then he writes, I stared
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  Speaker 1: at him numb and then said, why shouldn't you and
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  Speaker 1: I walk out the door, come back in and do
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  Speaker 1: it ourselves? So that little exchange has been printed and
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  Speaker 1: following me around. And that's where the question, what would
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  Speaker 1: the next leader do comes from? Because the next leader
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  Speaker 1: has clarity that the current leader oftentimes doesn't have because
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  Speaker 1: we get so emotionally connected to our product, our company,
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  Speaker 1: our model, and everything else. So this, again, this question,
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  Speaker 1: I think more than any other question, has provided me
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  Speaker 1: with the clarity and honestly, Holly, the courage I've needed.
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  Speaker 1: to make some of my most difficult decisions, especially as
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  Speaker 1: it relates, number one, to personnel changes, and number two,
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  Speaker 1: to letting go of ideas and things we've done for
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  Speaker 1: years that I love because I helped create them, but
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  Speaker 1: they're no longer as effective as they used to be.
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  Speaker 1: And as soon as I asked the question, hey, if
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  Speaker 1: somebody came in without that emotional attachment, either to these
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  Speaker 1: people or to these ideas or even to our whole model,
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  Speaker 1: what would they do? In fact, here's something else he writes.
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  Speaker 1: He writes, people who have no emotional stake in a
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  Speaker 1: decision can see what needs to be done sooner.
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  Speaker 2: That's such a big deal.
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  Speaker 1: I know. So what would the next leader do? I
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  Speaker 1: know what the next leader would do. Why don't we
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  Speaker 1: walk out the door, come back in and just do it?
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  Speaker 1: Terrifying clarity is the only way I know how to
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  Speaker 1: describe it.
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  Speaker 2: Well, what's crazy about this question is it's not like
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  Speaker 2: you're searching for ideas. It's not Your intellect, it's your
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  Speaker 2: emotional depth and regulation and EQ that has to be
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  Speaker 2: activated in this moment. I mean, when I hear that story,
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  Speaker 2: I'm just imagining him gazing out the window like, all
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  Speaker 2: my ideas have run out.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what they did. They were basically going to
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  Speaker 1: walk away from who they were and what they were
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  Speaker 1: known for in the world. In fact, we won't talk
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  Speaker 1: about it today, but in the book, I explore this further.
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  Speaker 1: He talks about the mistake they made was that they
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  Speaker 1: got their identity wrapped up with a specific product and
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  Speaker 1: a specific model. And whenever organizations get their identity wrapped
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  Speaker 1: up with something temporary, the clock is ticking backwards. And
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  Speaker 1: this is what he lost sight of. But fortunately. That
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  Speaker 1: conversation changed everything.
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's the biggest temptation is to get your identity
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  Speaker 2: wrapped up in the organization or in your work. And
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  Speaker 2: so this question helps you like zoom out and watch
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  Speaker 2: it like it's playing out on a stage.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So let me, I want to just read one
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  Speaker 1: other paragraph. This is kind of how the story ended
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  Speaker 1: because there's a lesson here as well. And I'm just
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  Speaker 1: going to read this. This is from the book. Grove's
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  Speaker 1: decision to get Intel out of the chip business positioned
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  Speaker 1: Intel to devote their energy to the emerging microprocessor market.
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  Speaker 1: By 1992, Intel became the largest semiconductor manufacturing company in
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  Speaker 1: the world, even larger than the same Japanese companies that
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  Speaker 1: had driven them out of the memory chip business. And
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  Speaker 1: then he writes this. This is such a takeaway. He writes,
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  Speaker 1: had we dithered longer, we could have missed our chance
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  Speaker 1: at all of this. His point was, if we had
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: just said, no, no, we are in the memory chip business,
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  Speaker 1: we are going to stay in it. He said, if
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  Speaker 1: If we had not made that difficult decision, we would
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  Speaker 1: have missed the next opportunity. And again, this just goes
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  Speaker 1: back to as leaders in the organization, we have to
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  Speaker 1: love what our organization accomplishes in the world and what
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  Speaker 1: it does for the world more than anybody in the
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  Speaker 1: organization or more than any idea in the organization or
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  Speaker 1: even any product in the organization. And as a founder,
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  Speaker 1: That is terrible. It's got to be difficult. Yes, because
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  Speaker 1: we are emotionally, emotionally attached. Again, that's why this quote,
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  Speaker 1: people who have no emotional stake in a decision can
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  Speaker 1: see what needs to be done sooner. What would the
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  Speaker 1: next leader do?
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  Speaker 2: So this question will save you and lead you to objectivity. Yes. Okay. Well,
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  Speaker 2: the next leader, they're probably not going to change the mission.
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  Speaker 2: That's probably going to stay intact of whatever you're leading.
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  Speaker 2: But oftentimes they like to change the way. Yeah. And
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  Speaker 2: maybe it's time to change the way that you accomplish
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  Speaker 2: the mission. In fact, you have a phrase that we
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  Speaker 2: say this all the time around here. We say, marry
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  Speaker 2: the mission, date the model. So tell our listeners, what
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  Speaker 2: does that mean? And how do you know when it's
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  Speaker 2: time to break up with the model?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, it's marry the mission, date the model.
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  Speaker 1: Because every organization was begun to accomplish a specific mission.
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  Speaker 1: And again, the organizational model or the product or the
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  Speaker 1: approach or whatever you call it is simply a means
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  Speaker 1: to an end. And what happens is We fall in
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  Speaker 1: love with the means rather than the end because that's
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  Speaker 1: what we do every day. This is what we create.
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  Speaker 1: This is what we produce. This is what we're known for.
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  Speaker 1: This is what our reputation is built around. So it's
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  Speaker 1: easy to fall in love with the means to the
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  Speaker 1: end and lose sight of the end, the end being
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  Speaker 1: the mission. What are we here to do? What are
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  Speaker 1: we here to accomplish? How do we make the world
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  Speaker 1: a better place? So again, it's sort of my version
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  Speaker 1: of what Andy Grove says throughout this book. Don't fall
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  Speaker 1: in love. Don't get your identity wrapped up in something temporary.
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  Speaker 1: Marry the mission, date the model. And I mean, I'm
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: an example of somebody who loves our model because I
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: created our model and it's been so effective and it's
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: what we're known for bits and pieces of it through
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: the years. However, we've had to discard because I am
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: so committed to But I have to remind myself and
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: it is emotional. But when I get a little bit
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: wobbly and when I get a little bit confused or
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: even kind of frustrated with changes other people want to
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: make and I say, okay, okay, okay. But Andy, if
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the board, if the elders kicked you out and brought
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: in a new team, not just a new leader, but
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: a new team, what would the new team do? It's like, okay, clarity.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Easy to see that for some reason.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: So easy. Because there's no emotional, they wouldn't have an
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: emotional association with many of the things that I love.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: But I want to be the kind of leader that's
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: able to lead beyond that. And that's why this little
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: conversation sits in my desk, printed out, framed as a reminder.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Gosh, I love that. Because it's a discipline that you
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: have to keep practicing.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: It is a discipline. Yeah. Okay.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: So our first question, it challenges what's possible. That last
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: one right there, it tells us objectively what needs to change.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: But this third question, this is where we turn the
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: mirror back on ourselves a little bit. And it's essentially
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: the book's title, What Would a Great Leader Do? So
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: how is that different from what would the next leader do?
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: And why do you consider that one the most important question?
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. What would a great leader do? So great is,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: this is what I say, great is as great does.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Great leaders aren't great because of what they think or
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: what they imagine or even what they say. It's really
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: what they do. And that's why I titled the book
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: what I title. It's because doing is what makes the difference.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Doing is what makes the difference. So this question goes
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: back to self-leadership. This question encompasses Fear addresses fear. In fact,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: in the book, I say it accomplishes four things. I'll
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: just list these real quick. When we have the courage,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: and it takes courage to ask this because before we
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: even finish asking the question, we know basically what the
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: answer is. We look at the options in front of
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: us and we think about what everybody else would do,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: what everybody else normally does under these circumstances, what people
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: expect us to do, what's in it for me, all
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: that swirling around. And then we pull back and ask, okay, okay, okay.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: But If I was a great leader, if I was
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: a selfless, others first, the company first, me second, if
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I was that kind of leader, if I was the
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: kind of leader that books are written about and movies
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: are made, if I was that kind of leader, what
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: would that kind of leader with these options do? And again,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: it's like that second question. It brings extraordinary clarity. It
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: does four things. This question raises the standard of our
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: leadership above the circumstances of our leadership, because in leadership,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: we tend to make decisions based on the circumstances right
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: in front of us. But when you ask, what would
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: a great leader do? You push back from the immediate
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: and you consider the ultimate and suddenly options that weren't
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: options become options. Decisions that were seemingly difficult to make
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: down here in the details become clear. The second thing
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: this does, it unveils motives. I mean, let's be honest.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's such a big deal because that gets
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: in our way and we don't even know it.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: No, right. It's again, a bad motive is difficult to
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: see in the mirror. Selfishness is difficult to see in
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: the mirror. Greed and jealousy, difficult to see in the mirror.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: But when you ask the question, okay, but what would
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: a great leader do? And suddenly you're looking above that,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: you're looking beyond that. So it unveils motives. I wrote,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: it creates embarrassing clarity. It And again, this goes back
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: to self-leadership. It forces us to face the real reason
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: that we're doing what we're doing or the real reason
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: we're considering what we're considering, because a great leader would
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: be better than that. A great leader wouldn't be as
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: selfish as that. A great leader wouldn't be as much
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: what's in it for me as that. So it unveils motives.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: It reveals weakness. For the conflict avoider, it's like, Okay.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Great leaders don't avoid conflict. For the person that powers
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: up and just goes in, okay, great leaders don't do
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: that either, so it reveals weakness. And the last thing,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: this question will inspire you to reach beyond the limits
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: of personality and style. And here's what I mean by that.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: All of us have said, either out loud or to ourselves, well,
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: that's just not who I am. Right. That's just not
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: who I am. And it kind of lets you off
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: the hook. Yeah. That's just not the kind of person
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: I am. That's not kind of... But great leaders- They
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: don't do that. That's right. They're like, you know what?
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: That's not what I would normally do. That's not how
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: I'm wired. But in this situation, in these circumstances, it
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: calls for something more than that. So the challenge is
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: to pause long enough to say, okay, I'm not committing
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: to this, but if I were a great leader- Yeah.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: What would a great leader do?
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: You know what I've learned about this question? Well, this
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: is the one we have painted all over our wall.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: So you can't really escape it. And, you know, you
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: should model it if you work here asking it. And
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: sometimes if I get stuck in a meeting and I'm
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: genuinely like in a one-on-one stuck about what to do
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: with the problem there. bringing me, I'll start saying, hold on,
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: I got to think for a second. What would a
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: great leader do? And I'll just give myself permission. And
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: then they'll start riffing a little bit about what they
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: think a great leader will do.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, you ask it out loud.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm just like, hold on. I'm thinking.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Pause.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Pause with this situation. I have to think.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: You lift everybody up above the circumstances.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: And it's so fascinating to kind of hear what they're saying,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: because they'll be reflecting things to me. And it helps
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: me to zoom out. And it's such a way that
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: we talk and think that we're expected to act like
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: that in the moment. So it's really such a good
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: culture creator. And sometimes you need people to help you
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: get to that place. In fact, there's a story that
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: you tell in the book that I love about your mentor, Charlie.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: And I would not know that you were naturally conflict-averse.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: That's just not how I experienced you. So he helped
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: you get there. Will you tell that story?
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell it real quick. So when I was,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: I was working with high school students in a church
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: and there was a guy named Charlie Renfro, still around.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: He's in his 80s now. I love Charlie. I've told
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: so many Charlie stories. Sometimes I feel like I should
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: change his name because people are going to think, do
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: you only know one guy, one smart guy? Anyway, so
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: his students, his kids were in our student ministry and
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: And so he wanted to get to know the person,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: the guy who was influencing his kids, which was me
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: at the time. So I'm 30, 31, 32 years old.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: So we would meet for breakfast at a pancake place
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: at 630 on Tuesday mornings. And Charlie ran a big outdoor,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: owned a big outdoor business, billboards. He had a record
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: storage business, which was kind of new back then. Instead
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: of paying high dollars to store records, his vans were
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: all over the city of Atlanta. picking up records, storing records,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: then digitizing them. He was one of the first to
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: do that. So he was a big deal, doing big things.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: I'm doing little bitty small things, you know. And so
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Charlie would walk into the restaurant. He'd be all dressed up, cufflinks.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, his initials. He's that guy, big personality,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: walk in, just greet people in this little restaurant, whether
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: he knew them or not, just sort of the mayor
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I'm sitting there. Then he would
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: sit down. He had a University of Alabama big gold ring.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: And he would slap his ring on the table. And
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: he would start every breakfast. He'd slap it down. He'd say, Andy,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: what you working on big? What you working on big?
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, compared to you, nothing. I'm not working on anything.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're larger than life. And we would have
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: these breakfast conversations. And I learned so much from Charlie.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: But anyway, to the point of this story, I would
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: bring situations to him. And so there was a situation
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: at work where I had a boss that I just
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: disagreed with on some things and I was avoiding him.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: And so I would just gripe and complain to Charlie.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Two weeks later, we get together. I'm griping and complaining
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: about the same thing. And I'm not bringing it to
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: my boss. I'm just avoiding, avoiding, avoiding. And so, you know,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: he got tired of listening to me talk about the
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: same thing over and over. So he slaps the ring down, says, Andy,
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: let me tell you a story. Because that's what he
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: would do. I would bring a situation. He would tell
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: me these things. epic stories that, again, are so directive.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: So this was the story. He told a story about
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: getting in trouble with these bankers in New York. He
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: got upside down financially because he owed too much money,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: wasn't working. And so he said, they turned me over
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: to the Black Hats. And that was his way of describing, yeah,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: they'd send you, they put you in a different department.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: He said, this is the group that thinks they know
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: how to run my business better than I do. I'm like, oh,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: he said, So they let me know they're going to
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: be coming to Atlanta because they're going to, you know,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: they got to make sure they're getting their money. Anyway,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: big business deal. He said, I called him. I said,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: you don't need to do that. I'm going to be
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: there Monday morning, meet you at your office. He said,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: so I flew up there, walked in. He said, I'm
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: going to be up here every, I can't remember, it
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: was every week or probably every other week. You're not
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: going to have to come looking for me. I'm going
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: to be here every Monday morning with what you need
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: from me. And you're not going to have to come
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: to Atlanta. And he said, eventually, they said, you know,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: after a few rounds of this, they said, Mr. Renfro,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: you don't need to come back up here. Because, again,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: their concern was, oh, you're going to hide. You're going
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: to hide things. He's like, no, no, I'm not. And
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: then he looked at me and he said, Andy, sometimes
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: you need to open. He said, sometimes you need to
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: walk up to the cage and open the door and
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: invite the big gorilla. You need to invite the gorilla
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: into the room with you. And I just looked at him.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: He said, so I knew what was coming next. He said,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: when we finish our pancakes, I want you to get
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: in your car. I want you to drive down through
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: the office. I want you to walk in his office
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: and I want you to introduce the conversation. I'm like, yes, sir. Yeah.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: You got to invite. You got to hit it head on.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: He said, you got to invite the 500 pound gorilla
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: into the room. Don't avoid the gorilla. I'm like, and
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: so here I am to this day telling that story.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: And so many times, Holly, when I just want to,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: I'll just email, you know, I'll just, I hope they
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: don't answer. I'll just leave a voicemail. I just, it's like, Andy,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: come on. That's not what great leaders do. You need
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: to open up the cage, invite the issue into the room.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Don't hide and don't run. And that really was kind
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: of a defining moment because it's not, believe it or not,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: it's not my personality. So- Anyway, that's the story.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Well, I love that.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: That's what great leaders do, right?
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: That is what great leaders do. And what I love
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: is a great leader took some time to sit with
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: a potential great leader and pass these things on because
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: that's what great leaders do as well.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: I'm grateful forever, forever for Charlie Renfro. So many stories.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: So anyway.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Well, as we wrap up, I would love for you
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: to do that for our audience today because we got
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of great leaders that are watching. So this
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: is ultimately... a legacy question, because eventually all this leadership stuff,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: it's just a story we're going to tell about our lives,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: just like the story you're telling about Charlie. So let's
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: leave everybody with something practical today. To our leaders listening,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: what's one thing you want them to do with this
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: this week?
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. So my suggestion is that
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: you write this question, what would a great leader do?
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Write the question down somewhere where you can't help but
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: see it every day for the next few days. Or
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: the next few weeks, or you can do what we
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: did and just paint it on the walls in your offices.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: What would a great leader do? Then stop and ask
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: yourself the question. Stop and ask it before a challenging one-on-one.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Stop and ask it before you react to baseless criticism.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: or a ridiculous suggestion. Ask it when an appetite threatens
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: a value. What would a great leader in my circumstances
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: face with my options do? And here's the secret. If
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: you do what a great leader would do, you become
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: a great leader because great is as great does. So
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: ask it and then act on it because that is
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: what great leaders do.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Hey, thank you so much for giving us that question
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: to wrestle with. And thank you so much for joining us.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Before you go, take a minute to subscribe wherever you
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: access this content. By subscribing, you help us grow the audience,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: which allows us to keep bringing you great content to
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: help you go further faster. And be sure to visit andystanley.com
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: where you can download the Leadership Podcast Application Guide. That's
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: going to include a summary of this episode plus questions
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: for reflection or group discussion. And we will see you
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: next time right here on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast.