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SoWhoCaresAnyway E46 Just Name It · SoWhoCaresAnyway

• 0:04
  Welcome to So Who Cares Anyway?, a fortnightly podcast exploring stories that shape care, community, and the systems we live in.
• 0:13
  I'm Ruth Germaine, and in each episode I'm joined by my guests, people from behind clinical doors to the North York Moors, whose experiences open a window into how we care for one another.
• 0:25
  Together, we explore care through creativity, connection, and the strengths we already hold.
• 0:31
  Because care isn't small, care isn't soft, care shapes the world.
• 0:36
  So who cares anyway? It's time to talk about it.
• 0:42
  Hi, and welcome to the next episode of So Who Cares Anyway? And today I'm gonna be joined by Sandra Dyer, someone I've known for quite some time.
• 0:50
  She's a nurse, a researcher, and someone who really uses her voice as an advocate for people locally and globally, as you'll hear in this conversation.
• 0:59
  So before we begin, I just want to say something important.
• 1:03
  The perspective Sandra shares in this episode are her own, shaped by her work, her values, and her lived experience, and my role here is simply to hold the space openly and thoughtfully, and I hope that comes through as you listen.
• 1:16
  And just to add, Dad, this one's for you Welcome to So Who Cares Anyway, Sandra.
• 1:23
  It's lovely to have you here with me today.
• 1:25
  Thanks, Ruth.
• 1:26
  It's, it's great to be here and to see you again.
• 1:28
  Yes.
• 1:29
  Yeah.
• 1:29
  So I'm just gonna give a little background for people listening.
• 1:32
  We've known each other for quite some years now.
• 1:34
  I was working in, um, the primary care training hub across Kent and Medway, and you were working in primary care, um, in West Kent in one of the practices there.
• 1:46
  And then I went into the, um, an advanced practice role and put together a Was trying to put together a website and a community of practice around research.
• 1:55
  And you very kindly came on in your, in your role as a practice nurse.
• 1:59
  So we had somebody who was a lead from the community trust who helped to support that as well, a research lead, but there's no real research lead for, um, within primary care.
• 2:08
  And you stepped up to do that.
• 2:10
  And I don't know if you know, but that practice is still, um, that community practice is still running, and it's led by Claire Pegg.
• 2:18
  So she's the lead.
• 2:20
  Um, she works for the NHIR and got a number of hats.
• 2:22
  She's been on the, on the podcast as well.
• 2:25
  So she continues that, and it's actually grown across Kent, Surrey, and Sussex, so you stepping up and getting that going meant that there was already something to continue.
• 2:33
  So yeah, but maybe you'd give a little bit more about what you're doing 'cause I know you've done, gone off and done, done lots of things since then.
• 2:39
  Yeah.
• 2:39
  Thanks, Ruth.
• 2:40
  Um, it feels like quite a long time ago now, but yeah, you're right.
• 2:43
  It was.
• 2:43
  We, um, both working in Kent and Medway at the time.
• 2:46
  I was working in a, in a small practice near Maidstone.
• 2:49
  Um, and I, I was really kind of wanting to get involved in, in research and kind of frustrated by the lack of infrastructure everywhere to kind of support, um, primary care nurses in relation to, um, uh, sort of research ambitions or just, you know, any kind of involvement in research.
• 3:05
  I thought there was lot of, lot of brick walls at the time.
• 3:07
  So it's actually really good to hear that, um, my involvement and our work together has kind of m- made some, you know, some, some impact in terms of infrastructure because I think that's what's, what's needed in, in terms of people knowing where to go to.
• 3:21
  Um, yeah.
• 3:22
  Um, since, um, since then, w- as I said, it feels like quite a while ago.
• 3:27
  Um, I'm now, um, not working clinically at the moment and- Mm I've been doing a PhD, I started doing a PhD in February of last year.
• 3:41
  Um, and that's at King's, and I'm looking at, um, primary palliative care and multi-morbidity.
• 3:47
  So, um, two interests of mine.
• 3:49
  Um, and, um, the other kind of context to my research is socioeconomic deprivation, um, sort of health inequities.
• 3:57
  Another big interest of mine, which I'm sure we'll cover as we cover our, our conversation, um, today.
• 4:03
  Yes.
• 4:03
  Yeah, and definitely around that health inequities.
• 4:06
  I think that's, as well, one of the bits that really we're gonna be talking about more as we go forward.
• 4:12
  So perhaps on a more global context than just UK, you know, for people out there to wonder where we're going.
• 4:18
  But I just wanna find out from you, Sandra, where does that drive come from? W- what is it about those health inequalities, what's...
• 4:25
  that you've come to that and thought, "This is something that I need to be pa- particularly co- concerned about," or that, that you are doing your work around, however you'd like to phrase that.
• 4:35
  Yeah.
• 4:35
  Well, thanks, thanks for asking about that.
• 4:37
  Um, I think, I was think- I was con- pondering this yesterday 'cause I knew you were going to ask me this question.
• 4:42
  I was thinking it just feels like a part of who I am.
• 4:45
  Um, you know, in terms of my kind of maybe my upbringing, my, um, early kind of, um, exposure to politics, um, and things I was involved with in my sort of early teens and, and, um, early 20.
• 4:59
  So late teens and, and early 20.
• 5:01
  So, um, just to kind of clarify that point, I was involved in kind of the peace movement in, in the 1980s, um, and, and then the rights movement in the 1980s.
• 5:11
  Um, they were sort of two big causes that I thought were very important at the time.
• 5:15
  Um, and that exposed me to lots of ideas, lots of different people, different ways of living, um, and just, um, kind of totally kind of opened up my world really from, um, my sort of- Quite, um, constrained childhood, um, growing up in a Catholic, um, Irish Catholic family, um, and quite a, um, lack of exposure to exciting things.
• 5:40
  Um, so my, my late teens, early 20s were very exciting times for me.
• 5:44
  But I think in particular it's, it's, um, that experience that sort of came, come with me in terms of just thinking about things from maybe slightly different viewpoints and, um, a, a real kind of commitment to wanting to see a sort of more just world, um, and passionate about fighting things or, um, um, you know, being involved in kind of movements that, um, help that, that, that, that process.
• 6:12
  Thank you, Sandra.
• 6:12
  And there's a few things that you've said there.
• 6:14
  So the first bits I've jotted down is that when you were involved in those peace movements and the animal rights movements as well, there's definitely a sense of excitement that came through.
• 6:23
  So you can see that still, it, it's still, um, I can hear it in your voice as well as see it, that's still with you.
• 6:29
  But you spoke about that, that opened you up to new ideas.
• 6:33
  You went on to say different perspectives as well, which is the same thing.
• 6:36
  New people perhaps than you'd known within, within the way that you were brought up, brought up, but also different ways of living, which is quite a big thing to say really, isn't it? There are different ways of living.
• 6:48
  So I suppose, yes, I don't, hadn't thought about it, or we grow up in the way that we grow up, and we assume that's the way, but actually there's so many different ways of living.
• 6:56
  So I don't know, yeah, if you've got anything about that that you want to share, but it was just, to me, that was quite an impactful thing when you said it When I, um, left home, um, 1980s were very different to, um, the 2020s.
• 7:09
  Yes.
• 7:09
  Um, there was still, I think, opportunities to kind of leave home earlier, um, and live kind of more independently, and I think that's got much more difficult for young people, um, in sort of, in the 2020s.
• 7:22
  Um, so I left home and actually lived in a, in a squatted house in, um, in South West London, in Brixton.
• 7:28
  Um, and at that time, there was a lot of squatted properties, um, in, in London and across, across the country.
• 7:34
  Um, squatting wa- wasn't illegal.
• 7:36
  Um, it was, um, a kind of response to the housing, um, kind of crisis after the Second World War.
• 7:42
  Um, there was quite a big squatting movement in, in the UK.
• 7:45
  And, and essentially, um, local authorities, housing associations would leave a lot of property empty 'cause they didn't have the resources or they didn't have the kind of organizational skills perhaps to, um, to keep all the, all the property kind of up and running.
• 8:00
  So there'd be lots of empty property, um, and so this kind of squatting movement took a- took advantage of that or responded to that by saying, "Actually, you know, people are homeless, you know, shouldn't, there shouldn't be empty properties.
• 8:11
  We, we're gonna move in and maybe make some improvements to the property, make it habitable and, and live here."
• 8:17
  Um, and, um, yeah, that's what I did.
• 8:19
  So we lived in a squatted house in B- in Brixton Hill, um, probably for about three years.
• 8:23
  And the house we lived in had been empty for a few years.
• 8:27
  Um, and it was in quite a poor state of repair, but I learnt some very good skills, um, like plumbing, basic electrics, um, sort of DIYs, DIY skills.
• 8:36
  And with a group of other people, we kind of made it habitable and made it our home.
• 8:40
  Um, and for me, that was a kind of amazing experience of learning lots, le- meeting lots of people, but also kind of moving away from my quite, um, uh, kind of cons- constraining, I suppose, household, um, that I'd lived in as a, as a child.
• 8:54
  Yeah.
• 8:55
  So quite exciting times.
• 8:56
  Yeah, I can see now.
• 8:58
  You know, so yeah, quite different.
• 9:00
  And as you say, the '80s were incredibly different than they were now.
• 9:03
  But I never thought about the fact that actually there was more opportunity.
• 9:06
  Most of us left home earlier.
• 9:08
  You know, I think I was the oldest one to leave home at...
• 9:10
  Well, I was.
• 9:11
  Out my brothers and, my brother and sister and I, and I left home at 18.
• 9:14
  So yeah, we all left home that much earlier, and that sort of gave us that independence much sooner, didn't it? Which must change our outlooks, I suppose, whereas things have changed differently.
• 9:24
  And yeah, hearing about the squatted houses, I never realized that it was illegal.
• 9:27
  Now legal, I'd never really sort of thought about it, I suppose.
• 9:30
  Um, and the fact that people are leaving the houses e- or authorities were leaving houses empty deliberately, and I've heard this before, it's not something people think about, that actually people that move in and squat, they don't live there to squat in squalor.
• 9:43
  They live, move in there to squat and live a reasonable life, you know, and, and often bring the properties up to a more, a usable state than perhaps they were to start with.
• 9:52
  So I can see that probably in that, you know, it sounds a fascinating time, and you saw and met lots of different people and lots of different perspectives.
• 9:59
  But I'm gonna come back to something else you said now, and I'll just save that one because that will really bring us into why you're here today.
• 10:06
  You said that you became particularly interested in a more just world And I know that's something, so I saw your post on LinkedIn, which was where you were talking about not having a voice within certain organizations, and I'll let you elaborate on that a- as you feel you want to as we go through.
• 10:24
  But not having that voice or agency always, and when you're trying to advocate for a more just world, how difficult it can actually be to do that.
• 10:33
  Um, but yeah, so talk to me a little bit, or, uh, maybe you want to start talking now about that more just world and h- and how you see that, um, happening and what your particular passion is around that at the moment and perhaps what you're doing as well.
• 10:47
  Well, what I was referring to in my sort of early 20s was thinking around, um, I guess particularly ineq- in- inequities in terms of wealth, um, that there's, you know, super rich people and there's some very poor people.
• 11:01
  Um, and, um, as a, as a developed country, the UK has the capacity, um, to feed everybody, to provide housing to everybody, um, provide healthcare, provide, um, benefits if, if n- if people can't work.
• 11:15
  Um, so I think that capacity is, is there.
• 11:17
  We've got the wealth.
• 11:18
  It's about how that wealth is chosen to be spent.
• 11:21
  And in the '80s, there was obviously lots of money being spent on ar- armaments, and we were kind of going through the Cold War, um, with, with, with Russia and Eastern Europe.
• 11:31
  Um, and in, in that sense, it felt like quite a dangerous time in terms of the prospects of war and what that might mean.
• 11:38
  Um, and, um, obviously lots of people were kind of interested in, um, trying to change that in terms of, you know, let's spend more money on welfare rather than bombs, um, and actually let's try and make our, our world a kind of safer place, um, by, you know, perhaps not having nuclear bombs or not having American nuclear bombs on our, on our soils.
• 11:59
  Um, and, um, I was talking about the peace movement.
• 12:01
  That's kind of, I guess, was the kind of ethos behind that.
• 12:05
  Um, but I think it's probably more fundamental.
• 12:08
  Um, I think that the, um, the, the kind of question around, you know, how money is spent, who controls money, um, and, um, having a more equal distribution of, of, of, um Of stuff that keep people alive.
• 12:23
  So sort of housing, um, food, um, jobs.
• 12:27
  Um, so more, more equity in, in, in, in terms of those kind of fundamental things that people need to, um, to survive.
• 12:34
  That's really interesting, Sandra, and you've gone back to that bit about actually, um, that capacity to feed people and to, to support people, which comes back to that health inequality.
• 12:44
  So you've gone from that peace movement, making the world a safer place, to actually the equality.
• 12:50
  And I wonder if there's something in that, whereas where if we have equality, does that in itself make the world a safer place? I suppose that's what I'm thinking.
• 12:58
  I think it, I think it does.
• 12:59
  So, um, I think, you know, there's the, the basic requirements that, that people need to, to, um, you know, to stay alive, um, and to be healthy.
• 13:08
  So that's housing, food, some sort of income, um, and security.
• 13:13
  Um, I think if more people had that, we would definitely have less crime.
• 13:18
  Um, and on a sort of global scale, I think if there was a more sort of a, a, a fairer ethos in terms of how countries run, um, I think we'd be less likely to have conflict.
• 13:29
  Um, so I think those things are important in terms of, um- A more peaceful world and a more, a more just world.
• 13:37
  Obviously, it's much more complex than that, but w- we're talking kind of high level um, kind of requirements.
• 13:43
  I th- I think that's what n- that's what's needed.
• 13:46
  Yes.
• 13:46
  Yeah.
• 13:46
  And of course, it's, it is more complex, but actually the way we work and live in our communities has a greater impact, doesn't it? So it's really important.
• 13:56
  Yeah, so what I was gonna go on to talk about as well, 'cause I asked you a lot in that first question, I always do this, I, I put everything out there.
• 14:03
  But, um, so when you put that post up on LinkedIn, you were talking about agency.
• 14:09
  But what I hadn't quite completely picked up on that until we had our conversation is you were talking about what was happening out in, um, Gaza and Palestine, um, in particularly.
• 14:21
  So...
• 14:22
  And I, the question I asked you when I realized that when we met was, and, and we'll go on to talk about what you're doing there or, and why you think that's important or what you're advocating for in a moment, is why does the health of the rest of the world, if you like, or other places in the world, or how we interact with the, with other places in the world that perhaps need support from us in some way, or might need support, why is that important to us in the UK? And I remember your answer.
• 14:53
  You might not, but you might come up with something different today, which would be really interesting.
• 14:57
  So, but that's what I asked you at the time.
• 15:00
  Yeah, I mean, I, I think for, for lots of reasons it's relevant to, um, to us in the UK.
• 15:05
  I think from a kind of just a purely kind of human point of view, what happens to humans around the world should matter to us.
• 15:14
  Um, so if humans are being hurt somewhere or being disadvantaged somewhere, I think we probably should care about it just from a kind of humanitarian point of view.
• 15:23
  But I think from a more, um, maybe a more sort of selfish perspective, um, if, if as humans or as, as a, as a country we can accept, um, grave injustice against, um, populations, um, in another country, um, what's likely to happen if that's become acceptable behavior, um, to, to, to hurt, to, to remove healthcare, to im- re- re- remove food, and to, and to basically to murder people, um, legally.
• 15:54
  If that becomes accepted, um, you know, th- that's gonna happen in other places.
• 15:59
  And, and ultimately, um, states will believe, um, and governments will believe, or leaders will believe that that's acceptable behavior to control populations.
• 16:09
  Um, so it'll come back and bite us individually, I think, um, if, if we accept it So I think there's a number of reasons why, why we must speak up.
• 16:18
  Um, I think the other one for me, um, as a nurse, um, I would say that we've got, um, um, a, a mandate almost, um, to speak up.
• 16:28
  So the NMC talks about protecting people.
• 16:30
  Um, and when I think about protecting people, obviously it's my, it's my patients, sitting in my clinic room with me.
• 16:36
  Um, it's people in my community, um, where I'm working.
• 16:39
  Um, but it's also, it's, it's, it's, it's much wider than that.
• 16:43
  Um, if we see that healthcare's been denied to populations within our country or in other countries, I think we should care about it and we should speak up.
• 16:51
  Um, and we've got, you know, we're, we're kind of respected members of the community.
• 16:55
  People look up to nurses, they trust them.
• 16:57
  You know, we should u- use our voices for good, I believe.
• 17:01
  And so for lots of reasons, I think we have a responsibility, um, to, to talk about stuff that we think is unjust and, and to do what we can as individuals to, to try and change that.
• 17:12
  That's lovely.
• 17:13
  And, and you've elaborated on it so much more 'cause when I asked you, I think you were a little bit surprised.
• 17:18
  And I said, "I'm not questioning you."
• 17:19
  But I think it is really important to think about, and what you said at the time was that hu- humanitarian part.
• 17:25
  Actually, it's just humanitarian.
• 17:27
  But actually, you've said so much more there, and you talked about care, and that's one of the things with this podcast.
• 17:32
  As you know, it's called So Who Cares Anyway? And actually, what is care? Um, um, many of the time, you know, and I do it myself, will say, "I really care about this," or, "I care about that."
• 17:43
  But caring in, in m- our mind isn't actually, um, it makes it a noun, a noun maybe? I don't know.
• 17:50
  I'm not very good at my things, but it's not an adjective.
• 17:52
  Care to me is an adjective.
• 17:54
  It's about what we do, and you've spoken about that, about using your voice to think about not just, um, the people that you see on a day-to-day pace- basis, you might call them patients, people, um, your community, but thinking about that wider, um, to the broadest context o- of the world, that we have to think about that.
• 18:14
  And you've spoken about why we need to do that, and accepting injustice.
• 18:17
  If we start to accept injustice, then without questioning it, without perhaps speaking out, and doing what might sometimes just feel a very small part, then actually, um, what are we accepting and, and how is that going to affect us in the long run? Um, and it might feel real, and it might not feel real, but actually, it does impact, um, all societies really.
• 18:38
  And, and we've seen it's a very global world nowadays.
• 18:41
  We all know everything that's happening everywhere.
• 18:43
  So I wonder if you want to go on, Sandra, to talk about what it is that, that you were talking about in that, um- in that LinkedIn post or about what you're doing as a whole, whichever way you'd like to frame that Well, I mean, what I would have been referring to was, was the, the, um, conflict, um, between Israel and Gaza.
• 19:04
  I won't call it a war.
• 19:05
  I don't believe it's a war.
• 19:06
  Um, I believe it's a one-sided, um, conflict essentially in terms of who has the resources, um, and who has the, um, uh, I guess the world's kind of power at its, um, at its ba- uh, uh, at its, um, uh...
• 19:22
  is able to kind of call on, as it were.
• 19:24
  Um, so, um, I've been involved in, um, sort of Palestine solidarity and sort of been interested and, um, passionate about the Palestinian cause but for a number of years.
• 19:36
  Obviously the last three years, um, has been, um, a massive kind of ramp up in, in terms of the, um, impact of occupation, um, for people living in Gaza and, and the West Bank and, and Palestine.
• 19:50
  Um, and, um, got involved in, um, a couple of, um, groups, um, that involve healthcare workers, um, in terms of advocating for people in, in, in Gaza and so one of those is Nurses for Palestine.
• 20:04
  Um, and, um, Nurses for Palestine has been up and running since I think, um, 2023 I believe.
• 20:11
  I got involved last year, um, and, um, have been working with them in terms of trying to influence public bodies and, um, trade unions and professional bodies to kind of speak up, um, in relation to what's happening, in particular in relation to healthcare.
• 20:30
  So, um, what's happening in terms of healthcare provision, um, what's happening to healthcare workers, um, and what's happening to kind of civilians, um, in terms of casualties, um, and, um, and, and killings.
• 20:44
  Um, so I think probably what I was talking about at the time was how, um- It's clear to me that, um, the ability to speak up around this subject is becoming increasingly difficult.
• 20:58
  It feels like there's more censorship, um, both on a kind of, um, social media platforms, uh, but also within institutions.
• 21:07
  Um, and I think there's quite deliberate, um, kind of application of policies, um, are being kind of used to try to limit, um, free speech around, um, around this issue.
• 21:18
  And I think that probably was what you were talking about.
• 21:20
  But you d- you started to talk here about the different things that you're doing.
• 21:24
  Um, and you've mentioned briefly Pales- um, Nurses for Palestine and some of those things that you're doing.
• 21:30
  So I wonder if you want to perhaps elaborate and give us a bit of a story so we can picture what it is that you're doing and what it is that you're trying to advocate for, or that you're wanting to advocate for.
• 21:40
  Um, so Nurses for Palestine, as I mentioned, has been around since about 2023.
• 21:45
  Um, I'm gonna very briefly summarize kind of what we're trying to do.
• 21:49
  Obviously, it's about solidarity with, um, nurses and healthcare workers in, um, in Gaza.
• 21:56
  Um, and looking at ways that we can support our colleagues on the ground.
• 22:00
  Um, how we can kind of raise awareness about what's happening there.
• 22:04
  Um, and how as nurses we can, um, can support each other to, um, to speak up.
• 22:11
  Um, and, um- Raise awareness of, of, of, of what's happening.
• 22:18
  And I think the other part is, is, is that, um, wanting to influence, um, trade unions and professional bodies, um, to support, um, um, you know, provide support for the people in Gaza as well in, in context of s- actually using their, um, quite significant voices for good.
• 22:40
  Um, so for example, to cause for, cause for ceasefires, cause, call for end of, um, sending arms and provision of arms to, to Israel, and to name it, um, as, as a genocide against the, um, Gazan people, uh, and against Palestinians.
• 22:57
  Um, and to name the, the perpetrator, which, um, the state of Israel.
• 23:01
  Um, and I think those four things would be fundamentally, um, what we're calling for.
• 23:07
  And none of those things to me feel that they're particularly controversial.
• 23:11
  Um, but it's in...
• 23:13
  I, I think increasingly, um, they feel like they're more controversial to kind of speak openly about in the context of working in the public sector, um, and in the context of being a registered healthcare professional.
• 23:27
  Thank you, Sandra.
• 23:28
  And you named a couple of things there.
• 23:30
  You talked about, um, the unions and other sort of professional groups actually naming what's happening.
• 23:36
  But you also talked about support for nurses and healthcare workers on the ground.
• 23:41
  And it's not something when you think about what's going on, we just see the devastation on the news or wherever we it is that we, we look at, um, what's going on in the world.
• 23:49
  People use different things.
• 23:50
  But we see that, but we don't always think about the complexities of that.
• 23:55
  And of course, for you, it's around that healthcare.
• 23:58
  So I wonder if you, um, would give us a bit more of a picture really of what's going on on the ground for those healthcare workers, nurses, doctors, whoever.
• 24:07
  And I know obviously this is more around nursing, which is fine.
• 24:10
  So that people can get an idea of what's going on and why it really matters that we do support those people, and then perhaps we can look at what that support looks like afterwards.
• 24:20
  Yeah, thanks, Ruth.
• 24:21
  Um, so I guess in answer to your question, um, firstly, I think it's actually quite difficult to find out specifically about nursing and what's happening, um, in terms of kind of numbers and, um, and data.
• 24:34
  Um, it tends to be kind of aggregated data in relation to healthcare workers And do we know, um, I think the latest kind of numbers is around, in terms of, uh, healthcare workers who have been killed, um, as a result of the, um, the conflict is around 1,800.
• 24:52
  Um- Mm-hmm and that's a mixture of doctors, nurses, paramedics, et cetera.
• 24:56
  Um, hospitals, um, are very, very badly, um, uh, damaged.
• 25:02
  Um, I think the, the last lot of data I saw was about 94% of hospitals have been damaged or destroyed.
• 25:08
  Um, so the kind of infrastructure is, is very severely impacted.
• 25:12
  Um, there's still restrictions, um, on sort of medicine and food coming into the country.
• 25:19
  I mean, historically, uh, before, um, the recent, um, escalation in violence, uh, from October 20, um, 2023, um, there's always been restriction on food coming into, into Gaza, and, and, um, and medicines and other, um, essential sort of life-sustaining, um, um, materials have always been under, um, res- restriction or, um, um, im- embargo.
• 25:45
  Um, but that's much more severely, um, restricted now.
• 25:48
  So there, there is no open borders, um, in terms of aid coming in.
• 25:51
  It's still, despite the so-called peace, um, peace deal or ceasefire, um, there's still severe restrictions.
• 25:58
  So I guess what in answer to your question around what does that mean for people on the ground, I mean, is they're working in a very, very difficult situations.
• 26:07
  Um, you know, obviously there's, um, big organizations such as, um, Medecins of Palestine and MSF, um, and other smaller, um, organizations, uh, third sector organizations who are providing, um, kind of support, um, to, um, the healthcare workers there, and then foreign, um, healthwo- healthcare workers coming in as well to, to provide support.
• 26:30
  Um, so there's obviously, um, kind of, um...
• 26:36
  What's the word? Um, there's a, there's a, there's a kind of rebuilding going on, but it's, it's very, very slow, and it's very poorly resourced because of the restrictions on, on what is allowed in.
• 26:48
  Um, so I think there's a, um, going back to the destruction, the destruction healthcare, on healthcare, I don't think was by accident.
• 26:55
  I think it was by design.
• 26:57
  Um, so if you, um, if you destroy healthcare, you destroy access to health, um, and that's another assault on the civilian population.
• 27:06
  Um, and I would see that as part of a, uh, concerted, um, sort of well-documented, um, act of, um, deliberate destruction.
• 27:15
  Which is absolutely, yeah, it's awful to hear, um, and, and devastating.
• 27:20
  And I think what you've done there has really helped put it in perspective, and, um, I asked you what does it look like on the ground.
• 27:25
  It just must look very, very hard This podcast is all about collective voices, so if you're enjoying it, please subscribe and share it across your networks, your friends, your family, your colleagues.
• 27:39
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• 27:45
  Now, back to the conversation So is there anything else that you're particularly doing or that you know other people are doing on the ground is, uh, uh, or that you're advocating for to happen, um, to make a difference to support people? Yes, I mean, there, there are some kind of fairly large organizations trying to kind of support the rebuilding effort.
• 28:08
  So there's an organization called PalMed.
• 28:09
  Um, they had a recent conference in London that I went to, um, where they kind of highlighted the scale of the destruction and kind of what was needed.
• 28:17
  Um, and there was a nursing voice within there, although it was mostly focused on medicine and, and surgery.
• 28:23
  Um, there was a kind of nursing, nursing element to the kind of rebuilding and the kind of...
• 28:28
  They're telling of the story around the rebuilding.
• 28:31
  Um, so universities have been very badly damaged.
• 28:34
  Um, and, um, even where, um, nurses are able to kind of continue their education, often, often that's remote, um, because they can't, they can't physically get there.
• 28:44
  There's, um, el- electrical, um, um, kind of, you know, blackouts, a s- shortage of elect- uh, you know, s- sufficient electrical supply, um, damage to, um, infrastructure in relation to mobile phones and Wi-Fi.
• 28:58
  So it's all very challenging for them.
• 29:00
  Um, so a, a lot of resource basically needs to go in to, to rebuild.
• 29:05
  Um, but at the moment that rebuilding is severely hampered, um, by, um, restrictions by the Israeli state.
• 29:12
  Um, so I think it's a bit of an up- uphill, um, battle.
• 29:15
  So I think, um, going back to what we can do in, in the, in the West or in the UK, I think the best thing is to talk about it, is to name it.
• 29:24
  Um, I think organizations that have, um, the ability to influence government, um, so I'm gonna name here the RCN, for example, um, I think they have the ability to p- influence government as a, um, respect- a w- well-respected, kind of very big, um, nursing voice.
• 29:43
  The biggest, um, trade union, um, for, um, for nursing, um, as well as a professional organization.
• 29:50
  Um, organizations like that, I think, have the ability to influence government policy and, you know, influence what the government is, is trying to do.
• 29:59
  Um, so I think that's one thing I feel is a very kind of, um, tangible thing as individuals is, um, speaking to those organizations and asking them to speak for us and to be our voice.
• 30:12
  Um, I think in back to that, uh, LinkedIn post, um and it was about advocacy and speaking up and, um, how important that was to do, um, and the, the kind of importance of institutions speaking on our behalf.
• 30:27
  Um, so going back to the Royal College of Nursing, I don't believe currently that the RCN is speaking on my behalf when it relates to an...
• 30:35
  in relation to this issue, um, because, um, they won't name, they won't name the perpetrator.
• 30:41
  Um, and they're very, um I think, um, I think cowardly probably isn't the right word, um, but they're very, um, opposites to brave, um, when it comes to speaking out.
• 30:56
  They're playing a very sort of safe political kind of stance, um, which I, I believe is fundamentally wrong because I think if one has the voice that they could use and they choose not to use it, and there is absolutely something so awful going on, um, such as genocide, um, there comes a place or a position where you become complicit in supporting it by not naming it and not opposing it.
• 31:20
  Um, and, um I think it's a very kind of tricky grounds.
• 31:26
  Um, the RCN talk a lot about neutrality, um, and wanting to keep a neutral voice.
• 31:32
  And I, I think there's different...
• 31:34
  When we talk about neutrality, I think there's some kind of obfuscation maybe going on when the people talk about neutrality.
• 31:41
  Because clearly, as a nurse, if I'm providing care to a patient, their political beliefs, their religious beliefs, their country of origin, their, their personality, what, you know, what that person's done in their life, whether they've done good, done bad, is completely irrelevant to the care that you provide.
• 32:00
  You provide that care because you're a nurse and you're doing your job to provide the, the care that the person needs in a, in a person-centered way.
• 32:08
  When we talk about neutrality in the context of kind of politics or geopolitical conflicts, um, I think that's a lot more, um, a lot more nuanced, and I don't see that there's a place for neutrality when it comes to genocide.
• 32:24
  If we think back to the, the Holocaust in the Second World War, if, if someone was advocating for a, a neutral position on, on that, if we look back historically, I think we would say that that was incorrect.
• 32:37
  Um, you know, either from a humanitarian ethical point of view, that is not a legitimate position to take.
• 32:45
  Um, and I would argue in this current situation where there's well-documented evidence of, of genocide, um, I don't believe taking a, a neutral position on that is a, um, is an ethical, um, kind of, um, standpoint.
• 33:01
  Um, so in answer to your original question about what can we do, um, I think we need to speak to our, to our institutions, to organizations that have the voice to speak on our behalf, um, and make sure that what they are saying actually reflects members', um, voices and beliefs.
• 33:18
  Um, and currently that's very difficult.
• 33:21
  So Nurses for Palestine, other organizations have had dialogue with the RCN.
• 33:27
  Um, I've personally been to meetings with the RCN where they've made it very clear that, um, they're, they're not prepared to take that position of being outspoken.
• 33:36
  They feel that's what they've done in terms of putting out, um, uh, press releases, um, signing joint letters and, um- Making reference to what's happening in Gaza is kind of more than enough, that they've done more than other colleges.
• 33:54
  Um, and so they're not prepared to, to, um, they're not to take- they're prepared to take a more kind of overt or, um, positive position on it.
• 34:04
  Um, so I find that extremely disappointing, um, to say the least.
• 34:08
  Um, at RCN Congress this year, we were told there would be no motions accepted on, on the question of, of Gaza or Palestine.
• 34:19
  Um, there was a emergency debate on the Palantir in the NHS, or no Palantir in the NHS.
• 34:26
  Um, and this, the proposer was told that if they mentioned, um, Israel, they mentioned Gaza and Palestine, that their microphone would be cut off, that they weren't allowed to mention that in the, um, in the debate.
• 34:39
  Um, so I think it's ve- a very interesting position.
• 34:42
  Um, when we, um, think about, um, the campaign against Palantir, there's very many ethical reasons why that particular company, um, should be opposed in, in my view.
• 34:56
  Um, but I think at the forefront of that, um, is their support to the military effort and, um, and genocide in, in Gaza, which is very well documented.
• 35:07
  Um, but the RCN felt that that was too controversial to name.
• 35:12
  Um, and I think that's a very perfect example of, um, institutions not being brave enough to put their head a-up above the parapet and, um, to kind of name, name names and, um, be clear about what it is we're actually, um, opposing.
• 35:30
  Thank you, Sandra, and that gives me a really clear picture.
• 35:33
  I suppose my first question is, or a couple of...
• 35:36
  Uh, first a reflection and then a, then a question, is you've spoken about how, um, particularly in this case, the RCN, and as a nurse, obviously that, and you're with the RCN, I presume, so therefore, that's why you speak about them.
• 35:49
  But they're saying they've done more than perhaps other organizations have.
• 35:54
  But what you're asking for is for all organizations, not just particularly the RCN.
• 35:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 35:59
  But i-is there an instance where perhaps, um, it is...
• 36:04
  Are you asking for something to be done that's more than perhaps been done in the past? So there are...
• 36:09
  Because we've seen lots of things happening across the world, you know, in our lifetimes, haven't we? Are, were you asking for more than perhaps has been done in previous, um, as you said, not wars, but maybe they're wars, maybe they're, um, I can't remember what you called this now, conflicts.
• 36:25
  Um- Is this new or different than you're, that you're asking? I think that's something that probably listeners are thinking, "Well, well, why the RCN and the other royal colleges or these other level people? And have they done this in the past?" So is there something where you think, "Actually, yeah, they have done it before," or is this something new? Yeah, that's, that's a really interesting question, and something that myself and, um, colleagues have kind of been looking at in terms of comparing the response of the royal colleges to this particular, uh, conflict, um, to previous wars and humanitarian kind of disasters.
• 37:00
  Um, so, um, there's definitely a difference, um, I would say, um, in terms of how this particular conflict is being spoken about, um, um, described, um, and, um, the kind of, um, um, language that's used is, is often quite different.
• 37:20
  So a- as an example, if we go back to the RCN, but I'm not talking very specifically about the RCN when I talk about this.
• 37:27
  I'm talking, as you said, much more generally about the, the royal, the royal colleges and similar organizations who have this potential voice to use.
• 37:36
  Um, if we think back to the Ukraine War, um, very quickly after the Ukraine War started, um, there was, um, statements put out by many of the royal colleges, um, talking about protection for healthcare workers, um, and, um, wanting to provide support in many different ways.
• 37:55
  The RCN in fact donated 5,000 pounds, um, to the healthcare kind of effort in Ukraine very quickly after, um, the, the, um, the war started.
• 38:06
  Um, so that was kind of one difference.
• 38:08
  Um, lots of the other royal colleges did quite visible things, um- I'm probably gonna get it wrong if I say-- if I give examples.
• 38:16
  So, um, I, I, I know that a particular college lit up their building in the colors of the Ukrainian flag, for example.
• 38:23
  Um, so there was lots of kind of quite symbolic, um, acts, um, but quite visible acts that, um, that happened, um, in relation to the Ukraine war.
• 38:34
  So there was a kind of an institutional impetus to kind of support it, um, to support in Ukraine and support health workers working there.
• 38:43
  Um, and I, I think it felt that it wasn't that kind of political ten-kind of tension or contention, um, in, in terms of, um, um, having that kind of vocal, um, um, kind of response.
• 38:59
  Um, whereas the, um, the conflict in Gaza, it's much more muted, much more kind of, um, overly considered what's, what's, um, what's put out.
• 39:12
  Um, and to the point that actually what's being said feels so kind of muted that it's, it's almost, it's almost meaningless, um, because it's so, um, sort of non-specif-non-specific what's, what's, what's being said.
• 39:28
  Um, also kind of safe politically.
• 39:30
  It's stuff that's already happening.
• 39:32
  So an example for that would be, um, evacuation of, um, injured children.
• 39:37
  Um, uh, it would've been sometime last summer when the government decided they were gonna put some effort into trying to remove some, um, injured children from Gaza and provide them with appropriate healthcare.
• 39:48
  It was very, very low scale, um, and, um, didn't in a way kind of meet the needs of the population.
• 39:54
  But I guess it was s-a symbolic act.
• 39:57
  Um, and the RCN immediately supported that and asked for more of it.
• 40:01
  Um, so it didn't feel particularly contentious to be doing that.
• 40:04
  Um, it felt that was quite a safe thing to do.
• 40:07
  Um, and always, um, I think, you know, if you're talking about wars, um, it's always easier to talk about children than it is to talk about adults in, in terms of, um, the kind of the sympathy vote perhaps or, um Uh, I guess it's gonna be less contentious to, to, to, um, to, to, to, to name children as victims I can, I can see there's definitely something in that.
• 40:33
  Um, the child's voice and the innocence and- Mm and the things that people perceive is quite different.
• 40:40
  So you've given us lots of things there, Sandra, and I think that last bit was really helpful.
• 40:44
  Um, we spoke before we ca- you came on, didn't we? Because I said to you, "Actually, I don't really do politics."
• 40:50
  But as you said to me, this isn't controversial, it isn't politics, it's just about what's happening out there, and what do we do and how do we respond.
• 40:58
  And of course, it does affect politics, so it is politics in, in many ways, but then I suppose a lot of what I talk about on here can potentially be political in how we work and what we do.
• 41:11
  Um, but I think you've given a real picture and a real clarity there about what's happening and what it is that we can do, and I think just raising our voices and speaking about it, um, and making people aware of what's going on, um- Beyond just, uh, you know, we see things.
• 41:28
  I've seen things on the news, but today what I've got from you is far more depth about what's going on, what, and what we could potentially do, and the impact of that.
• 41:37
  So it's been really helpful.
• 41:39
  Thank you, Sandra.
• 41:41
  I wonder if as we...
• 41:42
  'Cause I'm just aware of time, and I know we could keep talking about this, and there probably is more.
• 41:47
  So, um, but I wonder if as we finish, if there's anything that you want to share, either a key message or a call to action.
• 41:54
  I think your call to action there for, for, uh, larger institutions is quite obvious.
• 42:00
  Please stand up and do something.
• 42:02
  Please just name it.
• 42:03
  Just pl- call it out.
• 42:05
  But is there anything that individuals can do? Um, because quite often when I see things like this on the news, I do feel like that there's, there's very little I can do.
• 42:15
  So is there something or is there just a message that you want to share? Yeah, I suppose in, in summary, there was something else I wanted to say about the previous question- Sure which helps in summary in a way.
• 42:27
  Um, I was thinking about are we asking institutions or organizations to do more for this conflict than they have done for, for others? Um, I think if they're, uh, uh, I think, yes, that would be great, but at the very least, I would expect that there's a kind of equal playing field in terms of what the response would be.
• 42:47
  Um, so the RCM, for example, has a humanitarian framework, um, that I think was published either '25 or 2024.
• 42:55
  Um, I think if they were able to kind of meet the requirements of their own framework, they would be speaking up a lot more on this.
• 43:04
  Um, so I think at, at, at a sort of very kind of, um, low expectations level, um, I think if there was an equal playing field, if there was, um, equality in terms or equity in terms of at, uh, what the response kinda looks like, um, I think that would be a big kind of step up from the current situation.
• 43:25
  Um, the next thing I'm gonna think about is, um, as an individual, and I was kind of pondering this yesterday 'cause I thought you might ask me something around that.
• 43:33
  Um, so I think it's a, it's a really good question.
• 43:36
  Um, and, um, I think there's something about, um- Individuals using the voice that they do have and using any kind of, well, I would probably describe as privileges that they do have.
• 43:48
  So I think as a, as a white person with a reasonable income, um, I'm having company, got an employer, um, I think I'm actually probably quite privileged in the sense that I'm probably going to face less, um, disadvantage or, um, negative effects of, of talking about this.
• 44:07
  Not that it's risk-free for me, but it's certainly going to be much more risky for other people.
• 44:12
  So if you do have any, any kind of, um, privilege in terms of your sort of social standing, um, you know, who you are, then I think, you know, there's an...
• 44:22
  To me, there's an obligation to, to, to use that if you, if you can.
• 44:26
  But I think when we talk about kind of activism or speaking up, that can be very little things.
• 44:32
  Um, so for me, it's about when I go shopping, I'm not gonna go and buy the avocados from Israel, for example.
• 44:38
  I'm not going to give my money to, um, or as little money as possible that I, um, to big o- organizations that I believe aren't doing good things in the world.
• 44:48
  Um, so I will boycott things like Amazon, or I'll try to avoid using Airbnb.
• 44:54
  I'll try to avoid those big corporations, um, that may be giving money to Arms companies, tech companies that aren't doing good.
• 45:04
  Um, so I think there's small things that you can do, um, which do make a difference.
• 45:09
  I think the second thing is about the ability to, to speak to people about this and, um, being brave and trying to have some conver- little conversations where, where you feel that it's going to be, um, received in a, in an okay way.
• 45:23
  Um, so I'm not talking about us talking up in a, standing up in a team meeting and talking about really contentious stuff.
• 45:28
  I'm talking about little chats you might have with colleagues and sort of sounding them out.
• 45:32
  And actually, you might find that people think very similarly to you, but they're worried about talking about it.
• 45:38
  Uh, so I think that's my second bit of advice.
• 45:40
  Third bit is to try to join, join a sort of community or, um, organization where there's like-minded people, and I think that makes a big difference.
• 45:49
  Uh, so for me, the, the, the organizations that I've connected with, I've met other nurses, I've met other healthcare workers, um, and that solidarity, that feeling that you're not alone is very important.
• 46:00
  Um, but also means that collectively you've got a louder voice, um, and what you're able to do together is more impactful than what i- individuals can, can do on the, do on their own.
• 46:10
  Um, but I think, you know, for each individual that's different and, um, you know, what, what you're able to do in your kind of sphere of influence, um, is always going to be helpful.
• 46:20
  Um, I think the other part of that is the benefits for the, for the individual.
• 46:24
  Um, so for me, I think for lots of my kind of working life, I've deliberately kept kind of politics and, um, work very separate, um, as lo- lots of us do for, for good reasons.
• 46:36
  Yes.
• 46:36
  I've just spoken about as well.
• 46:39
  Um, but I think that, um, there's something for me about sort of joining the dots between the two, um, and making what I do in my work life kind of meaningful to my kind of values and beliefs, um, and trying to kind of complete that circle in, in some way.
• 46:55
  And for me, um, advocating for, um, civilians, for healthcare workers in Gaza, for advocating for my patients in local communities, doing the research I'm doing at the moment, they're, they're very connected, um, in terms of feeling that I'm doing the right thing, um, and doing the just thing and trying to do my bit to, um, um, influence, um, in relation to kind of equity.
• 47:22
  Um, so Yeah, I suppose that's my takeaway message is, um, you know, for, for yourself, finding that place, um, where you're doing the things that feel right and feel safe for you, but being a little bit courageous as well and, um, speaking up.
• 47:37
  So for me, coming on the podcast today feels like a courageous act.
• 47:41
  Um, I think there is a real, um, sense of, um, concern amongst healthcare workers, um, particularly ones who are advocating for people in, in Gaza and, and talking about the genocide.
• 47:55
  Um, there's a worry, um, that they're gonna be reported to their regulator, um, that their employer's going to be after them, um, and, um, you know, life could become very difficult.
• 48:06
  As I said, I've got some privilege there that I don't have necessarily all those concerns.
• 48:10
  Um, but there's always that kind of doubt at the back of your minds is, you know, what might happen.
• 48:15
  So there is something about having, um, embracing, I guess, or accepting that there's risks in, in most things that we do.
• 48:25
  Um, and I think it's finding that level of risk or, um, comfort that's, um, right for you.
• 48:32
  And then maybe just going a little bit above that level of comfort, comfort and, um, being, being brave enough to do those small things, um, I think is im- important, but good for you as well because as I said, it's that, that, a, that ability to feel, um, that you're connecting your various segments of your life in a, in a, in a, in a positive way.
• 48:53
  Thank you, Sandra.
• 48:54
  And, and you've given a lot there, but actually it's really, really helpful and really structured.
• 49:00
  So thank you with your final thoughts.
• 49:02
  I really appreciate them.
• 49:04
  I appreciate you joining me today.
• 49:06
  It felt quite brave for you.
• 49:07
  You've just said that, so thank you.
• 49:09
  And, um, yeah, it felt quite brave for me.
• 49:12
  So thank you so much for joining me and, uh, yeah, I really appreciate it.
• 49:16
  Thanks, Liv.
• 49:17
  I think that's, um, yeah, it's a nice way of wrapping up and I completely, um, sort of echo, I guess that, that sentiment of, um, risk-taking for, for both of us.
• 49:27
  Um, and appreciate your offer to come and speak with you and, um, hopefully, uh, to be able to publish something that we, um, both feel that kind of...
• 49:37
  I've lost it there a bit Liv, sorry.
• 49:39
  Um, but mi- It's gonna make a difference.
• 49:41
  Yeah, it's, it's gonna make a difference and impact and we're, you know, we're kind of, um, comfortable with in, in terms of that, that level of, um, bravery.
• 49:50
  And I suppose for me it's just that, uh, provoking thought beyond what we do day to day.
• 49:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:56
  And just thinking about the wider context, um, which I always feel is really important.
• 50:01
  Thank you.
• 50:02
  Yeah.
• 50:02
  Thank you.
• 50:05
  I hope today's conversation gave you something to think about.
• 50:08
  If it did, please share it with someone.
• 50:10
  Ripples matter.
• 50:11
  You can also follow the show so you don't miss future episodes, and if you have reflections or ideas, then please leave a rating, or to support my work, head over to my Linktree, which you can find in the show notes.
• 50:24
  But for now, stay caring, stay connected, stay curious.
• 50:29
  Thanks for listening So what stayed with me from this conversation is a reminder that care isn't just local, it is global, and it matters.
• 50:40
  And sometimes the bravest thing we can do is simply name what's happening even when it feels uncomfortable.
• 50:48
  So thank you, Sandra, for your honesty, your clarity, and your courage