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Has Serial Killer Dennis Rader Struck Again? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
0:13
Speaker 2: A pair of pantyhose was found. Who cares?
0:17
Speaker 1: Who cares about a pair of discarded pantyhose? Well, I do,
0:23
Speaker 1: especially when it's tied in a ligature and it's found
0:30
Speaker 1: near the stomping grounds of one of the most prolific
0:35
Speaker 1: serial killers in the United States. At this time, will
0:43
Speaker 1: one or more victims be connected to b t K
0:53
Speaker 1: bind torture kill? That's right, it's not over yet now.
1:02
Speaker 1: Many believe, including myself, the two young ladies, one as
1:08
Speaker 1: young as sixteen years old, have fallen prey to the
1:14
Speaker 1: former dogcatcher turned serial killer Dennis Raider. I Nancy Grace,
1:21
Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
1:24
Speaker 1: here at Foxination in series six, sem one eleven. Don't
1:28
Speaker 1: know much about Dennis Raider, the church deacon, dogcatcher turned
1:32
Speaker 1: serial killer, so hungry for fame, his hands literally dripping
1:39
Speaker 1: with blood, that he taunts police by contacting the media.
1:44
Speaker 2: Take a listen to BTK in his own words.
1:48
Speaker 3: Did he in fact suffocate them the eye as result
1:52
Speaker 3: of this is not right away? No, sir, he didn't.
1:54
Speaker 4: What happened well after that, I did miss this, Soltero.
2:01
Speaker 4: I had never strangled anyone before, So I really don't
2:04
Speaker 4: know how much pressure you had to put on a
2:05
Speaker 4: person or how long it would take.
2:07
Speaker 3: But was she also tied up there?
2:10
Speaker 4: Yes, you got both her hands and their feet were
2:12
Speaker 4: tied up.
2:13
Speaker 3: She was on the bed.
2:14
Speaker 4: Where were the children, Well, Josephine was on the bed
2:18
Speaker 4: and Junior was on the floor this time.
2:23
Speaker 3: So we're talking first of all about Joseph Otaro. So
2:26
Speaker 3: you had put the bag over his head and tied
2:29
Speaker 3: it and he did not die right away? Can you
2:32
Speaker 3: tell me what happened in regards to.
2:33
Speaker 4: Joseph He moved over real quickly, and I think tore
2:36
Speaker 4: a hole in the bag, and I could tell that
2:38
Speaker 4: he was having some problems there At that time, the
2:41
Speaker 4: whole family just went They went panicked on me.
2:44
Speaker 3: So I worked pretty quick, You worked pretty quick.
2:49
Speaker 4: Well, I mean I strangled missus Otaro and she went
2:54
Speaker 4: out or passed out. I thought she was dead. She
2:57
Speaker 4: passed out, and I strangled Josephine. She passed out, and
3:02
Speaker 4: I thought she was dead, and then I went over
3:05
Speaker 4: and put and then put a bag on the.
3:10
Speaker 1: Junior said, why is this man still alive? Why is
3:14
Speaker 1: the breathing air on our earth. Did you hear him?
3:19
Speaker 1: He is describing the murders of an entire family as
3:23
Speaker 1: casually as if he is Fries and French fries in
3:27
Speaker 1: the deep Fry. I got to work pretty quickly, including
3:32
Speaker 1: children killing children. That's BTK, bind, torture, kill, and it's
3:43
Speaker 1: not over yet.
3:46
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our friends at kryl online.
3:48
Speaker 5: When Dennis Reader was arrested in two thousand and five,
3:51
Speaker 5: lots of documentation was found by the Wichita Police, Documentation
3:55
Speaker 5: in his own writing journals in an unpublished book manuscript,
3:59
Speaker 5: The man You Script is thought to be a description
4:01
Speaker 5: of the murders BTK viewed as successful. There were polaroids
4:05
Speaker 5: of the victims and of Raider dressed like his victims,
4:08
Speaker 5: and in the state their murders occur bound, partially buried,
4:12
Speaker 5: or hanging upside down. The Osage County Sheriff's Office investigators
4:16
Speaker 5: have poured over raiders writing looking for links to local
4:19
Speaker 5: unsolved crimes, and the information inside led police to search
4:23
Speaker 5: the property where Raider and his family lived. During their
4:27
Speaker 5: search of the property, investigators found trophies from at least
4:30
Speaker 5: one woman. Investigators also found chains apparently used for bondage
4:35
Speaker 5: along with sea clips. Sea clips can shorten chains or
4:39
Speaker 5: be used to secure a person's legs or feet. We
4:42
Speaker 5: know that a pantyhose ligature was found. Other items found
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Speaker 5: have not yet been described publicly.
4:47
Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
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Speaker 1: what we know right now, as I believe at least
4:53
Speaker 1: two more women will soon be identified as being murder
4:59
Speaker 1: victims a Dennis Raider. Before I go to the whole panel,
5:03
Speaker 1: I want to go to a special guest joining me
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Speaker 1: right now, Sheriff Eddie verdin O, Sage County Sheriff. Sheriff,
5:08
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. I know
5:10
Speaker 1: there's a lot you can't tell me, but could I
5:13
Speaker 1: clarify what I just heard from our friends at crime
5:18
Speaker 1: Online because it was stated so matter a factly, so calmly.
5:25
Speaker 2: It was like a weather report.
5:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, fair to middling clouds out there, it might start
5:31
Speaker 1: raining tomorrow afternoon around four o'clock. And Raider addressed like
5:35
Speaker 1: his victims in the state their murders occurred. What could
5:39
Speaker 1: you explain, Sheriff, what is meant by bt K? Dennis
5:45
Speaker 1: Raider would dress like his victims and in the quote
5:50
Speaker 1: state their murders occurred.
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Speaker 6: You know this. The further and further you get into information,
6:00
Speaker 6: you know, the darker and darker side of things that
6:03
Speaker 6: you see. There's so much disturbing information that has never
6:10
Speaker 6: been released, never been seen. You know in the book
6:15
Speaker 6: you were describing that he was writing at the time
6:18
Speaker 6: of his rest and unfortunately didn't have finished because it
6:22
Speaker 6: might give us more answers. But there's a chapter thirteen
6:25
Speaker 6: that pretty pretty much sums up and part of that thirteen,
6:30
Speaker 6: you know, Dennis says no one will ever know the
6:35
Speaker 6: number of victims, and there's probably some that he can't
6:39
Speaker 6: even remember, and he signs it off see you in hell, Well.
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Speaker 2: He'll be there.
6:45
Speaker 1: I hope I'm not. I hope I don't see him there,
6:47
Speaker 1: but he will definitely be there. But I notice you
6:50
Speaker 1: sidestepped that question, Sheriff. Do you not want to divulge
6:54
Speaker 1: information that could touch on current investigations?
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Speaker 6: I would, I would absolutely, or anything that I can
7:01
Speaker 6: possibly share, you know, I can. I can tell you
7:04
Speaker 6: for sure our investigation is moving forward, that we've obtained
7:10
Speaker 6: a lot of information, a lot of leads, and are
7:14
Speaker 6: are still working every day possible. Of course, we've got
7:18
Speaker 6: current crimes going and got a balance between the current
7:22
Speaker 6: cases and in the cold cases. But we have have
7:26
Speaker 6: done thousands and thousands of ours on this case, and
7:31
Speaker 6: you know what led us here was was good, good leads,
7:35
Speaker 6: good evidence that keep, you know, leading us further and
7:41
Speaker 6: further in And while we were looking at things for
7:45
Speaker 6: our case, of course, we've we've come upon information that
7:49
Speaker 6: we believe is related to other cases. And as we
7:54
Speaker 6: develop that information, we reach out to law enforcement that
7:58
Speaker 6: are working those cases, pass that information on and you
8:03
Speaker 6: hope that that's something that could lead them further in
8:06
Speaker 6: their investigations and hopefully we'll get to the answers. You know.
8:12
Speaker 6: For instance, the map that I'm sure you're aware of
8:17
Speaker 6: that emailed to police back when he was tormenting him
8:22
Speaker 6: basically showed mileage from Wichita at different locations where he
8:26
Speaker 6: had committed crimes. And in that map there's one that
8:33
Speaker 6: made us really go into that because there's one of
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Speaker 6: fifty five miles, which is just above our county in Kansas.
8:43
Speaker 6: So I've got one really dedicated investigator that has devoted
8:51
Speaker 6: I couldn't tell you how much time, but we wanted
8:55
Speaker 6: to figure out what fifty five was because information in
9:00
Speaker 6: our investigation leads us to believe from several different areas
9:04
Speaker 6: that our victim was placed in the stall of an
9:07
Speaker 6: old barn, and we got that from writings that he created.
9:14
Speaker 6: But additionally, back when this crime occurred, one of the
9:18
Speaker 6: deputies received an anonymous call at night from a mail
9:22
Speaker 6: who told them that they could find her in an
9:27
Speaker 6: old barn up along the Kansas Oklahoma border. So when
9:32
Speaker 6: you find writings of his from seventy six from a
9:36
Speaker 6: project he calls bad Laundry Day and marks in chapter nine,
9:41
Speaker 6: which is a chapter in his book of the actual murders,
9:47
Speaker 6: and then you find additional information that cooperates that, and
9:51
Speaker 6: then you do an interview with him, and he tells
9:54
Speaker 6: you things that he can't know. And the example of
9:57
Speaker 6: that is my first interview was to just simply go
10:01
Speaker 6: see if a background information visit with him, nothing about
10:07
Speaker 6: our crime, didn't tell him any details of anything, just
10:10
Speaker 6: told him I was looking an old case from seventy six,
10:13
Speaker 6: wanted information. You know. He started that conversation off with
10:18
Speaker 6: I only killed the ten that I confess to, So
10:21
Speaker 6: whatever you think I did, I didn't do. But if
10:23
Speaker 6: I can help you, I'd be glad to. So I said, well,
10:28
Speaker 6: you know, I just want to know about you. And
10:31
Speaker 6: we started at age three and went to where he's
10:35
Speaker 6: at now. He went through nine of the ten murders
10:39
Speaker 6: in details. He went through every detail of his life
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Speaker 6: from you know, age three was a memory that he
10:49
Speaker 6: described that was fair to graphic and torturing animals and
10:54
Speaker 6: burying him onto you know, his boy scout time is
11:01
Speaker 6: his college time, and then on to the military. He
11:04
Speaker 6: talked about, you know, bondage and prostitutes and stuff in Okinawa, Japan,
11:11
Speaker 6: returned to Wichita, you know, ended up getting married, going
11:15
Speaker 6: through his jobs, and then some of the things that
11:18
Speaker 6: set him in motion to lead him to the ten
11:22
Speaker 6: murders that he can passed.
11:23
Speaker 2: To you know, Sheriff.
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Speaker 1: I'm thinking today about two potential victims that I feel
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Speaker 1: very strongly were killed by BTK, Cynthia Cindi don Kenny
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Speaker 1: and Shawna Beth Garber. But I would put money on
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Speaker 1: a sheriff if you went to Okinawa that there would
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Speaker 1: be missing people women that were murdered by BTK while
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Speaker 1: he was there. The first question I asked, guys, you're
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Speaker 1: hearing Sheriff Eddie Verdon out of Osage County, the elected
12:00
Speaker 1: shareff who is still working BTK.
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Speaker 2: You know a lot of people don't get it, and
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Speaker 2: it's it can.
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Speaker 1: Be exhaustive when you get, as I did in the
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Speaker 1: DA's office, one hundred new cases a week, and I
12:15
Speaker 1: had older cases that were still not prosecuted, that still
12:20
Speaker 1: needed work.
12:21
Speaker 2: But every week you get one hundred new cases.
12:24
Speaker 1: And it's a lot, and you're trying to do your best,
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Speaker 1: and older cases do get set back.
12:33
Speaker 2: On the back burner. It happens.
12:47
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Cheryl mccollumb joining me, the
12:52
Speaker 1: founder of the Cold Case Research Institute.
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Speaker 2: You can find her at coldcasecrimes dot org.
12:56
Speaker 1: She's a forensic expert and she's host of a hit
12:59
Speaker 1: series is called Zone seven. You can find that a
13:03
Speaker 1: crime onliner at all your podcast sites. Cheryl McCollum, I
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Speaker 1: want to retouch and I'm leading up to the pentyhose ligature.
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Speaker 1: I want to retouch on the fact that BTK and
13:15
Speaker 1: of course we'll have to have a strength way in
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Speaker 1: all this. Doctor Bethany would dress up like his victims
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Speaker 1: in the state they were at the time of their murders.
13:26
Speaker 1: That can be bound, that can be partially buried, even
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Speaker 1: hanging upside down. Explain, Eryl, it.
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Speaker 7: Is so important that we understand what was happening then.
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Speaker 7: And he is not only recreating. He has given us
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Speaker 7: his mo He's given us his signatures, just like he
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Speaker 7: did with his moniker BTK. He is telling us this
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Speaker 7: is what I did, this is the order that I
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Speaker 7: did it in, this is the way that I did it.
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Speaker 7: It is actually assisting law enforcement and not only understanding
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Speaker 7: what these photographs mean.
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Speaker 1: Okay, could I get you out of the weeds and
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Speaker 1: back in the middle of the road. Did he or
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Speaker 1: did he not take photos of himself dressed up like
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Speaker 1: the victims in the same positions.
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Speaker 2: They were when he killed them. That's a yes, no, Cheryl.
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Speaker 8: That is a yes absolutely.
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Speaker 2: Ki Lord, you know what.
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Speaker 1: I'm a JD, not a DDS, but I believe I
14:26
Speaker 1: can pull a tooth with the right pliers to doctor
14:30
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall joining us a renownced psychoanalyst out of LA.
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Speaker 1: You can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, did you hear what Sheriff Verdon just said?
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Speaker 1: You go to try to he goes to try to
14:44
Speaker 1: talk to raider. I ain't even call him BTK, although
14:48
Speaker 1: that's his most famous moniker because he gave that name
14:51
Speaker 1: to himself. He went through all this drama deciding what
14:55
Speaker 1: should the media call me? How about world class? A
14:59
Speaker 1: hole umber one? But that said, did you hear Vernon say,
15:04
Speaker 1: excuse me, Sherifford say that he goes to talk to
15:08
Speaker 1: Rader and he starts all the way back at his
15:11
Speaker 1: first memory, talk about narcissism.
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Speaker 2: Now again, don't listen to me.
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Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm talking about when I throw
15:20
Speaker 1: out a word like narcissism, but I got a pretty
15:22
Speaker 1: good idea.
15:23
Speaker 2: It fits him. Talk. If somebody goes, how do you
15:27
Speaker 2: do one? What's going on?
15:28
Speaker 1: You don't start with your first memory and go all
15:30
Speaker 1: the way through elementary and middle and boy scouts blah blah.
15:35
Speaker 1: But he did because it's all about him, Bethany.
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Speaker 9: It's all about him.
15:39
Speaker 10: He is supremely interested in himself. And can you imagine
15:44
Speaker 10: the investigator's eyes glazing over.
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Speaker 1: When you wait a minute, Bethany, because my fingers are tingling.
15:51
Speaker 2: I want to put my hands around his neck so badly.
15:54
Speaker 1: Sheriff how did you sit there and not just punch
15:58
Speaker 1: him right in the mouth?
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Speaker 6: Well, you know you've been here. Your goal is to
16:04
Speaker 6: solve your case and get that information, and we have
16:08
Speaker 6: to go through a lot of situations to get to
16:12
Speaker 6: the truth.
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Speaker 1: I shouldn't even ask that because you might say something like, yeah,
16:16
Speaker 1: I really wanted to. I withdraw that question back to
16:19
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany. I don't want the sheriff to burn out.
16:22
Speaker 1: He really wanted to punch him right in the mouth. Okay,
16:25
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany, what is that? He goes, Okay, let's talk
16:28
Speaker 1: about all your victims. Instead he starts talking about himself.
16:32
Speaker 10: Well, I mean, obviously, it's what we call in a
16:35
Speaker 10: way auto erotic, meaning all the eroticism, the interest, the
16:39
Speaker 10: excitement is directed back against himself. And this is a perversion.
16:44
Speaker 10: It's not a well known perversion, but this is why
16:47
Speaker 10: after he killed his victims in whatever state of dress
16:50
Speaker 10: or undressed or being bound or hanging upside down, he
16:54
Speaker 10: would recreate himself as the victim. Because he would create
16:59
Speaker 10: these I think we would call them the vignettes sex
17:02
Speaker 10: murder vignettes, with a mother and a dad and a
17:05
Speaker 10: child who opposed them. He would do all kinds of things,
17:09
Speaker 10: but then he would put himself in various positions within
17:14
Speaker 10: the vignette. So now he's the dad, Now he's the child.
17:18
Speaker 10: Now he's wearing women's pantyhose. Now he's hanging upside down.
17:22
Speaker 10: And remember, Nancy, these crimes are they're so seconfully.
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Speaker 1: I'm looking at the photos right now, Dale Carson joining me,
17:30
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, and the reason I
17:34
Speaker 1: have him on sheriff for and you'll appreciate this. He's
17:37
Speaker 1: a former fed an agent with the FBI, former Miami Dade,
17:42
Speaker 1: author of Arrest Proof Yourself. He's at Dale Carson Law
17:46
Speaker 1: dot com. Dale have you looked at these photos? I'm
17:51
Speaker 1: looking at the one right now where he looks like
17:54
Speaker 1: he's got on a woman's bra and his hair. I'll
17:58
Speaker 1: have to look up sun down because he he's hanging
18:00
Speaker 1: upside He is actually hanging himself. Have you seen these
18:04
Speaker 1: Jackie upside down? He's got on I think a woman's
18:07
Speaker 1: bra and some kind of like a cameousol over it
18:10
Speaker 1: and lingerie, yeah, lingerie and makeup makeup, and he's gagged
18:18
Speaker 1: himself with something black and his hands. I don't know
18:22
Speaker 1: how he took the picture, and his feet up on
18:24
Speaker 1: like a tree tied to the top of a tree and.
18:27
Speaker 2: His hands are tied behind him.
18:28
Speaker 11: I mean, really, this was done before the time of
18:32
Speaker 11: photograph editing that we can do on our cameras today
18:35
Speaker 11: and iPhones. I mean it took some skill and energy
18:38
Speaker 11: to do that, which indicates the level of intensity that
18:43
Speaker 11: he placed in this behavior. I mean, it's pretty striking.
18:47
Speaker 11: And the more complex it is, and of course you
18:50
Speaker 11: all know.
18:50
Speaker 1: That here he is in women's and women's hose, all
18:54
Speaker 1: tied up with his face covered.
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Speaker 11: Right, And the more complex it is, the more ritualized
18:59
Speaker 11: it is, longer he's been engaged in that behavior, which
19:03
Speaker 11: argues that there are plenty more victims than what we
19:05
Speaker 11: know of today.
19:06
Speaker 1: You know what, and everybody please jump in, especially you
19:11
Speaker 1: share Vernon with me right now to want to Bollinger
19:16
Speaker 1: a very dear friend of a thenteen girl that I
19:20
Speaker 1: believe was one of btk's victims. He has not been
19:24
Speaker 1: formally charged, and that's what we're going to talk about
19:26
Speaker 1: once I can get off these photos I'm looking at
19:31
Speaker 1: to wanna when you think about the mockery that he
19:36
Speaker 1: has made of these victims by dressing up in their
19:40
Speaker 1: clothes or like them and restaging their horrible deaths that
19:46
Speaker 1: he inflicted and taking pictures of himself. He's basically mocking
19:51
Speaker 1: what he did to the victims. And you think of
19:55
Speaker 1: your little friend Cindy's.
19:58
Speaker 12: Anti it thinks that he's just an evil man's Nancy.
20:05
Speaker 1: I don't understand what. Why is he still alive? Why
20:09
Speaker 1: did I miss Sheriff Verdon? Why didn't he get the
20:13
Speaker 1: death penalty.
20:15
Speaker 6: I'll tell you the answer to that is the only
20:18
Speaker 6: ten murders that he eventually confessed to, whereas during the
20:26
Speaker 6: time period, Kansas did not have the death penalty.
20:29
Speaker 2: Well you've got it now, don't you.
20:31
Speaker 6: And in addition to that, he did not want to
20:35
Speaker 6: reveal things that he did outside of Wichita because if
20:40
Speaker 6: that came out, then the surrounding states that had similar
20:44
Speaker 6: crimes would look at him and put it together. And
20:49
Speaker 6: those states did have the death penalty. I've got recordings
20:53
Speaker 6: of him talking to reporters and even describing to them
20:59
Speaker 6: in one of the recent serial killing cases that he
21:03
Speaker 6: was visiting with a reporter about that. You've got to
21:07
Speaker 6: watch those western states because they've got the death penalty.
21:10
Speaker 6: Some of them still have hanging on the book.
21:13
Speaker 1: Hanging is too good for him. Guys, take us an
21:16
Speaker 1: our cut ar fens kWh.
21:18
Speaker 13: The house that BTK once called home was torn down
21:22
Speaker 13: in two thousand and seven, and it was an empty lot.
21:25
Speaker 13: But investigators came into this lot and dug up this
21:29
Speaker 13: sidewalk looking.
21:30
Speaker 14: For evidence of an old cold case. A lot that
21:34
Speaker 14: was empty until Tuesday morning, when investigators from Oklahoma moved
21:38
Speaker 14: on to the property, pulling up sidewalks and digging, digging
21:43
Speaker 14: for evidence. According to Osage County, Oklahoma Sheriff's Office, for
21:47
Speaker 14: cold cases involving murders and missing persons possibly connected to
21:52
Speaker 14: Dennis Raider.
21:53
Speaker 2: And there's a reason they're doing that. Listen to our
21:57
Speaker 2: cut forty eight.
21:57
Speaker 1: This is my friend now, Carrie Rawson, btk's daughter, And
22:04
Speaker 1: don't hold it against her what her father did.
22:08
Speaker 2: He was a devil straight from hell to live with.
22:11
Speaker 1: And it's amazing to me she and her mother lived
22:14
Speaker 1: through life with BTK.
22:16
Speaker 2: Don't hold it against her.
22:18
Speaker 1: Listen to what she says that this is why this
22:20
Speaker 1: is so important the panty hoose.
22:22
Speaker 2: Listen.
22:22
Speaker 15: The first day after or the first evening, even after
22:26
Speaker 15: my father was arrested, the FBI called us and said
22:28
Speaker 15: they had found evidence under our floorboards, so he had
22:31
Speaker 15: driver's license up. Several of his victims, he had jewelry
22:35
Speaker 15: that he had taken from their homes after he murdered them.
22:38
Speaker 15: Those were his late most prized possessions. And he had
22:41
Speaker 15: carved out underneath the floorboards a place through this evidence
22:44
Speaker 15: in our hallway where we wrote out tornadoes and that
22:48
Speaker 15: had been going on since the seventies.
22:50
Speaker 1: And listen to this. Not only did he keep souvenirs
22:54
Speaker 1: off the women, the men, and the children that he murdered,
22:58
Speaker 1: then he dress up like them hose for selfies that
23:02
Speaker 1: he could look back on over and over and over.
23:06
Speaker 1: He kept kill kits, much like Israel Keys, another serial killer.
23:12
Speaker 1: Let's not cut forty nine.
23:13
Speaker 2: He had hit kits.
23:14
Speaker 15: And so we're seeing with rex Huerman like handcuffs. My
23:18
Speaker 15: father had like fannyback fanny packs with like handcuffs and
23:23
Speaker 15: rope ties like bondage gare bandanas. In hindsight, I actually
23:27
Speaker 15: did see my father's hit kit from the eighty five
23:30
Speaker 15: murder down the street. It was a bowling bag. It
23:33
Speaker 15: was like he didn't bowl, and so that was weird
23:36
Speaker 15: in hindsight. But at the time, my dad just had
23:37
Speaker 15: a lot of weird oddity bags around him.
23:40
Speaker 1: Two special guests joining us along with Tijuana Bolinger, friend
23:45
Speaker 1: of Cindy McKinney Sheriff Eddie Verdon elect to cheerriff out
23:49
Speaker 1: of Osage County Sheriff. You had a really interesting story
23:55
Speaker 1: about a conversation you had about him storing these keel k.
24:01
Speaker 6: You know, I've had a lot of very disturbing conversations
24:06
Speaker 6: with him.
24:07
Speaker 5: But.
24:09
Speaker 6: What led us to that particular spot. You know, we
24:13
Speaker 6: were lucky enough to obtain some of the information from
24:16
Speaker 6: Wichita after my first initial background visit with him, and
24:22
Speaker 6: you know, in that visit, we were just trying to
24:26
Speaker 6: see if he had any ties area, to see if
24:28
Speaker 6: he was a suspect. And of course you know the
24:31
Speaker 6: reason for that. She worked at laundry matt and there
24:35
Speaker 6: was bank being built right across the street. And you know,
24:38
Speaker 6: at that time ad T had eighty percent of all
24:40
Speaker 6: the commercial alarms in the United States. So, knowing from
24:45
Speaker 6: from previously going through this cold case, when when I
24:49
Speaker 6: learned that he was an a D ten stallar, I
24:51
Speaker 6: wondered could he have been participating in the alarm system
24:54
Speaker 6: going in that bank across the street spot at her
24:58
Speaker 6: and been there, And then as I did more, did
25:00
Speaker 6: again and learned that he was at the Boy Scouts.
25:02
Speaker 6: Pa Usca is where the Boy Scouts started. We have museums,
25:06
Speaker 6: you know, more dig and reveal the truth from Wichita.
25:10
Speaker 6: In the time he was in the Scouts hisself were
25:16
Speaker 6: in Pasca and their camp was up along the Oklahoma
25:21
Speaker 6: Kansas border in north of Sedan, so all those were
25:26
Speaker 6: in But I cut him off after learning how familiar
25:30
Speaker 6: he told me about all the towns north of us.
25:33
Speaker 6: He's very familiar with the Flynn Hills and things that
25:37
Speaker 6: a lot of the locals don't even know. So when
25:40
Speaker 6: I go talk to him, I'm not trying to I
25:43
Speaker 6: give him no information about my case other than I'm
25:46
Speaker 6: looking at an old case from seventy six. And when
25:50
Speaker 6: I stopped the interview because I know I'm going to
25:52
Speaker 6: have to dig further, he one of the things he
25:56
Speaker 6: said was, would you like to know what one of
25:59
Speaker 6: my favorite fantasies was that I never got to do?
26:03
Speaker 6: And I said, sure, go ahead, and he said, I
26:07
Speaker 6: always wanted to kidnap a girl from a laundry mat.
26:12
Speaker 6: And of course, you know how shocking that was, because
26:16
Speaker 6: the odds of him saying that would be a million
26:20
Speaker 6: to one, if even not higher. And I of course
26:25
Speaker 6: came back at him, trying not to show any emotion,
26:28
Speaker 6: and said, you know, you just told me about you know,
26:32
Speaker 6: nine murders and going into the tenth where you ambushed
26:35
Speaker 6: people in their houses. You told me about attempting to
26:38
Speaker 6: kept the kidnap a bank clerk, and that didn't go well,
26:42
Speaker 6: and then you moved to ambushing people in their houses
26:45
Speaker 6: and tricing mendic cooperating and then doing what you did.
26:48
Speaker 6: So in this fantasy you never got to do. How
26:51
Speaker 6: would you have done? And he said, I would have
26:54
Speaker 6: watched a laundry mat so she was in there alone.
26:57
Speaker 6: I'd approached her with one of my rouges. I would
27:00
Speaker 6: have had her help me get my stuff from my car,
27:05
Speaker 6: and when I got her to my car, I would
27:08
Speaker 6: have her and nobody would see her here anything. And
27:13
Speaker 6: You've got a lot of experience, a lot of people
27:15
Speaker 6: on here, you know. Right then and there, you know,
27:19
Speaker 6: he moved to the top of the list, of course.
27:22
Speaker 6: And so we went to Wichita and then going through
27:26
Speaker 6: the documentations that they collected in the search warrant, we
27:32
Speaker 6: find in nineteen seventy six, which is when our girl
27:36
Speaker 6: went missing. He's got a project called bad Wash Day
27:40
Speaker 6: and he has that marked for chapter nine and in
27:45
Speaker 6: one that he was going to release information on it.
27:49
Speaker 6: He's actually got two murders listed, one that he was
27:53
Speaker 6: going to release information in April and one possibly in November.
27:58
Speaker 6: The one in November is still a cold case. It's
28:01
Speaker 6: open of a girl named Sherry Baker out of Wichita,
28:06
Speaker 6: and even in his interview he tried to confess to
28:09
Speaker 6: that and gave gave details that he said the manner
28:14
Speaker 6: of which he was killed and what she was killed with,
28:17
Speaker 6: and that wasn't in the paper, but he did not
28:21
Speaker 6: go on with the story, and you know that led
28:25
Speaker 6: us to that. But besides all that information then, of course,
28:30
Speaker 6: you know, we were looking for anything possible. So we
28:34
Speaker 6: were able to track down people that you know, were
28:38
Speaker 6: former club members, different people that he's had relationships through
28:44
Speaker 6: the years, wrote letters to. We obtained a copy of
28:48
Speaker 6: a letter that I believe he had written in two
28:50
Speaker 6: thousand and eight, and in that two thousand and eight letter,
28:54
Speaker 6: he had told them that he had some trophies and
28:57
Speaker 6: driver's license hid under or the concrete blocks in his
29:02
Speaker 6: storage building behind his house and the police had never
29:06
Speaker 6: found those He described it as he had it buried
29:09
Speaker 6: some of them in a in a jar. So of
29:14
Speaker 6: course when you read that, you're you're you're thinking, oh
29:18
Speaker 6: my gosh. You know, we know he released driver's license
29:21
Speaker 6: on other victims. We know that he has notations in
29:25
Speaker 6: the book that he was writing that he was going
29:27
Speaker 6: to release more in April and more in November. So
29:32
Speaker 6: when we got that information, we went straight to Park City,
29:36
Speaker 6: got with Park City Police department, and we went to
29:39
Speaker 6: the location, uh, you know, to see if if there
29:44
Speaker 6: was anything there as he described. And when we got there,
29:48
Speaker 6: there was a six foot sidewalk that had been put
29:51
Speaker 6: right over the top of where he described he buried
29:54
Speaker 6: those items. So on that first on that first attempt,
29:59
Speaker 6: we some around the edges of that concrete and that's
30:04
Speaker 6: when we located the pantyhose that you were talking about earlier.
30:10
Speaker 6: But in order to get to the other stuff, we
30:12
Speaker 6: would have to have the concrete removed. So of course
30:15
Speaker 6: we took that information, went to KBI, worked with Park City,
30:21
Speaker 6: and it came together last week for them to come
30:26
Speaker 6: out saw cut that remove that concrete. Because you know,
30:30
Speaker 6: when you've got that kind of information, you've you've got
30:33
Speaker 6: to follow through. And then of course in the dig
30:36
Speaker 6: we found several items saying broken glass. The problem is
30:41
Speaker 6: we don't know if anyone involved they got that letter
30:45
Speaker 6: or got information out of that had been there between
30:48
Speaker 6: two thousand and eight and when we finally dug there.
30:51
Speaker 6: So you know, the question is, you know, he definitely
30:55
Speaker 6: says in that there was Sicklim's license along with other trophies.
31:00
Speaker 6: You know, if somebody had already got some of that
31:03
Speaker 6: stuff prior, but also they had removed you know, probably
31:08
Speaker 6: six inches of dirt or so in that area to
31:12
Speaker 6: prepare that site for the concrete. So we don't know
31:15
Speaker 6: if that could happen, but we definitely found items that
31:19
Speaker 6: matched the letter and they were definitely uh.
31:23
Speaker 2: What were the items?
31:25
Speaker 6: I can't release all the items.
31:26
Speaker 1: Trying to understand guys. You may have noticed a Paul
31:30
Speaker 1: went over the whole.
31:31
Speaker 2: Panel when.
31:34
Speaker 1: The revelation came out from raiders own Mouth that he
31:41
Speaker 1: dreamed about laundry mats.
31:43
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut thirty eight NBC.
31:46
Speaker 16: Oklahoma's Ocge County Sheriff's Office recently unearthed new evidence at
31:49
Speaker 16: the serial killer's former home.
31:51
Speaker 3: There are penny hose that are tied.
31:53
Speaker 16: In an Investigators believe Reader use those pantyhose to bind
31:56
Speaker 16: the victims hands or feet together. Perhaps, they say Sana Kenney,
32:00
Speaker 16: a sixteen year old who was last seen at the
32:02
Speaker 16: laundrymat in Bajasca, Oklahoma in nineteen seventy six, reader writing
32:06
Speaker 16: in a journal entry around the same time that laundry
32:08
Speaker 16: mats were a good place to watch victims and dream.
32:11
Speaker 17: We read from cover to cover his journals, and he
32:14
Speaker 17: left all kinds of clues in there. I absolutely believe
32:17
Speaker 17: they were probably on a victim, and he took them
32:21
Speaker 17: after he killed him. He took him and he kept him.
32:24
Speaker 3: As a reminder to.
32:25
Speaker 1: Nicole Parton joining US Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Nicole.
32:32
Speaker 2: From where did Cindy go missing?
32:36
Speaker 8: She went missing from the laundrymat. That was the last
32:40
Speaker 8: known place where she was. She went missing from the
32:44
Speaker 8: laundrymat there in Poshaga in Kentucky. And here we have
32:49
Speaker 8: this reference where he's saying in his journal, I would
32:52
Speaker 8: watch the nearby laundrymat for the victim. Even references the
32:58
Speaker 8: journal entry as wash day. He says that he was
33:03
Speaker 8: watching the brunette, which Cindy was, and he goes on
33:08
Speaker 8: in detail as how he watched them, and then goes
33:12
Speaker 8: back to how he would dress himself. He has on
33:14
Speaker 8: a pair of women's underwear. After watching a girl or lady,
33:19
Speaker 8: he would go into the bathroom relieve himself with masturbation thoughts.
33:24
Speaker 8: Also in the journal, he references the laundry maat day
33:29
Speaker 8: and says, see another entry I've made, And that entry
33:32
Speaker 8: in his journal was the original reward poster upon Cindy's disappearance.
33:38
Speaker 1: Guys, take a listen now to our friends and cut
33:42
Speaker 1: forty six at the Today Show.
33:44
Speaker 18: The case has repeatedly been the subject of documentaries.
33:47
Speaker 2: Four o'clock a Normal Guy.
33:49
Speaker 18: Including a show Sheriff Verdon happened to see, prompting him
33:52
Speaker 18: to visit Reader in prison. That's when the sheriff says, unexpectedly,
33:56
Speaker 18: BTK may have tipped his hand on Kenney at a laundromat.
34:01
Speaker 17: He said, well, you know, there was my favorite fantasy.
34:05
Speaker 17: Would you want to hear what it was? And I
34:07
Speaker 17: said sure, why not? And he looked me in the
34:10
Speaker 17: eye and he said, I always wanted to kidnap a
34:12
Speaker 17: girl from a laundrymat Sheriff Verdon.
34:14
Speaker 2: Did he look you right in the eye when he
34:16
Speaker 2: said that?
34:17
Speaker 6: Absolutely, you know, Nancy, and he has given me so
34:21
Speaker 6: much more. You know he before he told me the
34:25
Speaker 6: laundry mat thing. After we shut him down, because you know,
34:29
Speaker 6: he's very controlling. He likes to control the situation. We
34:33
Speaker 6: were shutting it down. He was throwing stuff at us,
34:37
Speaker 6: I believe. And you know the first thing he said
34:42
Speaker 6: when we shut it down was I was in Oklahoma
34:45
Speaker 6: a lot in nineteen ninety and I said, I said, really,
34:49
Speaker 6: what were you doing? And he said, well, I'd lost
34:53
Speaker 6: my job at ADT and I went to work for
34:56
Speaker 6: the United States Census. I started in which to tall,
35:00
Speaker 6: but got promoted a regional supervisor and in nineteen ninety
35:06
Speaker 6: I was all over Kansas and Oklahoma. And I said,
35:10
Speaker 6: that's terrifying.
35:12
Speaker 1: And it is to want to bolinger a friend of
35:17
Speaker 1: Cindy Kenny who goes missing, never seen again, age sixteen,
35:21
Speaker 1: at that laundromat. When you hear BTK dropping all these
35:29
Speaker 1: hints as Innuendow knowing so much about Cindy's disappearance, how
35:36
Speaker 1: does that make you feel?
35:37
Speaker 12: You know, I'm hearing a lot of things for the
35:40
Speaker 12: first time today and I'm just heartbroken over this. Demand
35:49
Speaker 12: is a sick, evil person to do this to such
35:54
Speaker 12: a sweet in the sick girl. Cindy was the most
35:57
Speaker 12: beautiful girl you'd ever meet. She never met a stranger.
36:03
Speaker 12: It's just I'm in Sharton Nancy.
36:20
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me right now is
36:25
Speaker 1: a renowned medical examiner, doctor Kendall Crowns, joining us out
36:29
Speaker 1: of Terrance County.
36:30
Speaker 2: That's fort Worth.
36:31
Speaker 1: Never a lack of business there for Doctor Crown's lecturer
36:35
Speaker 1: at University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical
36:39
Speaker 1: School has literally conducted thousands of autopsies. Doctor Crowns, thank
36:45
Speaker 1: you for taking your time to be with us today.
36:50
Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that there are even more victims
36:55
Speaker 1: of Dennis Raider BTK. If the bodies, if the remains,
37:00
Speaker 1: that is, we're found now, would you be able to
37:05
Speaker 1: identify them as being, for instance, Cindy Kenney.
37:11
Speaker 9: So at this point, most of his victims have been
37:14
Speaker 9: dead over thirty years. All you're looking for is skeletal remains.
37:18
Speaker 9: But from those skeletal remains, there is still a possibility
37:22
Speaker 9: of identifying them through gentle records and if there is
37:25
Speaker 9: any tissue left or a bone marrow left, you could
37:30
Speaker 9: get a sample to do DNA testing. So there is
37:33
Speaker 9: a possibility of still identifying them even after all this time.
37:37
Speaker 1: It's very disturbing that he referred to his murders as
37:43
Speaker 1: quote projects. I remember I would have four h projects
37:48
Speaker 1: all the way through you know, middle school and high school.
37:52
Speaker 1: I'd work call them lovingly. He called his murders projects.
37:56
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut fifty three from.
38:00
Speaker 17: When we started digging through the files. We located those
38:05
Speaker 17: polaroids that he had taken his self, and there was
38:09
Speaker 17: a series of nine photos that he took on one
38:12
Speaker 17: of his convicted cases out of Wichita. In the series
38:18
Speaker 17: of nine is written that he is wearing articles from
38:24
Speaker 17: three different projects, one of them of which was the
38:29
Speaker 17: Davis murder bear in Wichita.
38:32
Speaker 1: Not only that, do these photos and other evidence connect
38:36
Speaker 1: him to another unsolved case of SHAWNA. Beth Garber. Listen
38:42
Speaker 1: to our friends at the Today show in cup forty.
38:45
Speaker 18: Five, Oklahoma's Osh County shares thatdy Vernon also suspects in
38:49
Speaker 18: nineteen ninety Raider may have killed twenty two year old
38:52
Speaker 18: Shawna Beth Garber. Garber's body was found in Missouri in
38:55
Speaker 18: an area where Raider's own daughter remembers Fishy with her
38:58
Speaker 18: father and true.
39:00
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum that the twenty two year old Shawna Beth
39:05
Speaker 1: was found severely decomposed dumped in a Missouri home that
39:09
Speaker 1: had been abandoned bound at the ankles. Autopsy reveal she
39:13
Speaker 1: had been raped, restrained with different types of bindings two
39:18
Speaker 1: months before she was found, and for thirty one years
39:22
Speaker 1: she was known as Grace Doe, but authorm laves identify
39:27
Speaker 1: her as Shawna Beth Garber.
39:29
Speaker 7: Correct and Nancy let me brag on the sheriff a
39:32
Speaker 7: moment when he first went on TV and showed that
39:36
Speaker 7: ligature that would only fit a wrist or an ankle.
39:40
Speaker 7: I thought that was the most brilliant thing I've seen
39:42
Speaker 7: in a long time, because what he did was two
39:45
Speaker 7: things simultaneously. One, he spoke directly to Dennis Rager, Look
39:50
Speaker 7: what I found. You thought you hit it.
39:53
Speaker 10: You thought this was going to be your trophy that.
39:55
Speaker 7: You got to keep forever. But we found it. And
39:57
Speaker 7: the second thing he did, he showed law and for
40:00
Speaker 7: across this country. Look what we have. Look how it's tied,
40:06
Speaker 7: because that not is going.
40:08
Speaker 18: To be key.
40:09
Speaker 7: You can take DNA completely out of this thing.
40:12
Speaker 19: Where it was cut, how it was tied, where it
40:15
Speaker 19: came from the panty hose, if it was near the toe,
40:18
Speaker 19: the legs or the panty part is going to be critical.
40:22
Speaker 7: And I thought that was absolutely genius.
40:25
Speaker 1: She's right, Sheriff Ardan, do you believe that you are
40:29
Speaker 1: close to making a case for SHAWNA.
40:32
Speaker 6: I've actually got new information that hasn't been released and
40:37
Speaker 6: we're confirming it now, but it is it's probably going
40:42
Speaker 6: to move her case a lot closer, if not put
40:49
Speaker 6: it over the line in my opinion. So I'll give
40:52
Speaker 6: you you know, the first bit of that, and we
40:56
Speaker 6: are still confirming. So in here his notebook that he's
41:02
Speaker 6: got like his whole timeline with a bunch of projects
41:05
Speaker 6: and stuff. On ten twenty six of ninety he's got
41:11
Speaker 6: a notation of one and two under the star Camboree.
41:18
Speaker 6: And then on ten twenty seven the next day he
41:22
Speaker 6: has moss Leg project. So we didn't get to Shonda
41:28
Speaker 6: by picking out a random thing and going We followed
41:34
Speaker 6: evidence that we found in different things that took us
41:38
Speaker 6: to her. And in addition to that, as we doe deeper,
41:46
Speaker 6: we actually we actually we were really trying to figure
41:50
Speaker 6: out what the under the Star one and two Cambri was.
41:55
Speaker 6: So of course we know he was in the Scouts,
41:57
Speaker 6: the son was in the Scouts at that time, and
42:00
Speaker 6: we have been doing extensive research and you know, we
42:05
Speaker 6: knew that was going to be Boy Scout related and
42:11
Speaker 6: just trying to find some information. I've called all the
42:13
Speaker 6: way to Utah to the headquarters.
42:15
Speaker 2: Are you saying, Scout Jamboree.
42:19
Speaker 6: Under the Star Cambree? So this is really helpful in
42:27
Speaker 6: Shonda's case. So we've reached out to the Boy Scout
42:33
Speaker 6: troop and we've actually the other night ran down a
42:40
Speaker 6: gentleman I'm not going to reveal, but was in the
42:42
Speaker 6: Scouts with him, and he told me that on that
42:49
Speaker 6: date in nineteen ninety from his recollection, they were camped
42:55
Speaker 6: at the Roaring River in Missouri, which would be, you know,
43:01
Speaker 6: approximately thirty forty minutes to an hour from where her
43:07
Speaker 6: body was found. That from the recollection, it would have
43:12
Speaker 6: been a Friday Saturday and leave Sunday. And then in
43:17
Speaker 6: following up with that campground, we learned that it's site
43:23
Speaker 6: one and two. And this is all still brand new
43:28
Speaker 6: and we're we are digging, you know, right now, trying
43:33
Speaker 6: to determine. But Nancy, how big is that if we
43:37
Speaker 6: can now put Dennis Raider in Missouri and at that
43:45
Speaker 6: location close to where her body was with with this
43:50
Speaker 6: project named a series of nine photographs that he did
43:55
Speaker 6: on eleven one, So if you go with this project,
44:00
Speaker 6: he committed it on the twenty seventh, and he took
44:05
Speaker 6: a series nine photographs and he made a special map
44:09
Speaker 6: that he sent to the police specifically showing this location
44:16
Speaker 6: and on that map noting a place for the body
44:19
Speaker 6: to be put in the woods, and her body was
44:21
Speaker 6: in the woods. And if you put the one sixty
44:25
Speaker 6: at Joplin, which is what the map is, without a doubt,
44:30
Speaker 6: and the map shows southeast corner and it actually shows
44:33
Speaker 6: out of the state of candidate. But if you put
44:36
Speaker 6: that one sixty where he put that notation of the
44:40
Speaker 6: body to be placed, it is spot on. And again
44:45
Speaker 6: we provided information McDonald County worked with them. We actually
44:49
Speaker 6: went up with them to do an interview, provided them
44:52
Speaker 6: a bunch of information, actually helped them prepare and arrest
44:56
Speaker 6: Affi David in this case. They did the interview, we listened,
45:02
Speaker 6: and I had one of my people in the interview
45:04
Speaker 6: room with them. But you know, McDonald County said he
45:09
Speaker 6: was fairly honest with them. They fell. But while they
45:14
Speaker 6: were doing that interview, and just one example, the investigator
45:18
Speaker 6: asked him, did you ever wrap anything around the victim's head?
45:23
Speaker 6: And he said no, And I had provided them photographs
45:29
Speaker 6: of him, the nine pictures where he's got something around
45:32
Speaker 6: his head. So they said, why did you have this
45:36
Speaker 6: around your head? And he said, well, that was to
45:37
Speaker 6: hide mydentity. But I didn't do that to victims during
45:41
Speaker 6: the interview. I sent that investigator photograph of victims that
45:46
Speaker 6: he's convicted for with stuff wrapped around their head. I mean,
45:50
Speaker 6: I can document at least five to six lies that
45:55
Speaker 6: he told them. And again I wasn't in the room,
45:59
Speaker 6: but I listened all this, and again I've heard them
46:03
Speaker 6: say they couldn't place him in the area. But guess what, Nancy,
46:09
Speaker 6: We've now possibly placed him not just in the area,
46:15
Speaker 6: but right in the area. We're body stain.
46:18
Speaker 1: How do you go to sleep at night with this
46:22
Speaker 1: dancing through your brain?
46:23
Speaker 6: Well, let me tell you. My wife came in at
46:25
Speaker 6: one point thirty and said, you've got to get to sleep.
46:29
Speaker 6: You're going to kill yourself. But you know it's Nancy.
46:36
Speaker 6: I'm telling you with your experience, if you've seen I mean,
46:42
Speaker 6: we haven't even we haven't even touched the tip of
46:45
Speaker 6: the iceberg. In what I've looked, I've been eight months
46:52
Speaker 6: going through, collecting, following up on and the information. If
47:00
Speaker 6: you looked at it, you you would be absolutely shocked,
47:05
Speaker 6: and you you would know. I mean, I had a
47:09
Speaker 6: meeting and put together a slide, and I had the
47:14
Speaker 6: OSBI from Oklahoma, I had KBI from Kansas. I had
47:22
Speaker 6: numerous sheriffs from Kansas. I had the US Attorney's Office here,
47:29
Speaker 6: and I had the Oklahoma State Attorney General's office here.
47:33
Speaker 6: We figured the presentation we put together would last about
47:38
Speaker 6: two hours. We felt like it was very compelling and
47:43
Speaker 6: would show everyone, you know, the need for us to
47:47
Speaker 6: form some type of a task force and really dedicate
47:52
Speaker 6: the time that needed to be done on this case.
47:55
Speaker 6: That meeting ended up going the majority of everyone's for
48:00
Speaker 6: at least eight hours, some up to ten hours because
48:04
Speaker 6: of the significance of just the tip of the iceberg,
48:10
Speaker 6: and if you look at the things I mean, we
48:13
Speaker 6: went through his map. James. James is an incredible person
48:17
Speaker 6: with more dedication than I can say. And again, I'm
48:22
Speaker 6: dealing with day to day and I've kept James focused
48:25
Speaker 6: on this and he's he's in there going through stuff.
48:28
Speaker 6: He's made maps where and you know, we have no
48:32
Speaker 6: idea how much other law enforcement has done because you know,
48:36
Speaker 6: we've only been accessing what we can access when we
48:39
Speaker 6: can get it. And we made a map of missing
48:45
Speaker 6: people or unsolved cases just off of the map that
48:49
Speaker 6: dentists provided. And then as we did as we did that,
48:53
Speaker 6: then we looked at at you know, what the victims
48:56
Speaker 6: were wearing, their descriptions and heard them. He has got
49:02
Speaker 6: a ton of of of drawings and and notations and
49:09
Speaker 6: letters and poems and and just unbelievable things. But going
49:14
Speaker 6: through that, we found you know, not only cases that
49:19
Speaker 6: that that matched his map, but but but other items
49:24
Speaker 6: that particularly show the description of the victim down to
49:33
Speaker 6: colors of their shirts matching hair color, hairstyles. I mean,
49:38
Speaker 6: it is, it's it's unbelievable and uh, you know this
49:44
Speaker 6: thing is uh is really really amaze me of of
49:51
Speaker 6: and disappointed me. You know, I was old when we
49:53
Speaker 6: find an abt schedule and be able to really in
49:58
Speaker 6: an out. But we got one letter that says we
50:01
Speaker 6: don't have any records. I mean it goes on and
50:06
Speaker 6: on and on, but you know it's just you know,
50:10
Speaker 6: like like there's an Oklahoma. I was telling you that
50:14
Speaker 6: he talked about his senses time and in his timeline
50:17
Speaker 6: it's the busiest time of his life, which he told
50:19
Speaker 6: me in person. You know, he couldn't be his self
50:23
Speaker 6: at home because he had to be the church deacon
50:28
Speaker 6: and the dad and the husband and keep his his
50:33
Speaker 6: his his role as that. But then when he was
50:38
Speaker 6: out on the road, he got to be btk and
50:40
Speaker 6: have his hotel parties. He described breaking and enterings, prowling,
50:45
Speaker 6: window peeping.
50:46
Speaker 2: What do you mean by hotel parties? What hotel parties?
50:49
Speaker 6: Okay, So some of the pictures that he made, he
50:54
Speaker 6: would again dress up, you know, in women's clothing, wigs,
50:58
Speaker 6: mask and each and take his own pictures inside those hotels,
51:05
Speaker 6: like the one you showed.
51:08
Speaker 3: Where he was.
51:08
Speaker 6: Hanging in the trees. Yes, okay, we have located the spot.
51:14
Speaker 6: We've we've been with that Sheriff's department. We've located a
51:19
Speaker 6: document that he made describing that day, everything he took,
51:25
Speaker 6: what he did when he created that, and that's a
51:29
Speaker 6: special area of his and that's an area that will
51:33
Speaker 6: be searched, you know, in the near future. One example,
51:41
Speaker 6: craziest thing I ever heard. I actually brought that up
51:45
Speaker 6: to him and you know what his response was, what
51:49
Speaker 6: he actually said this. He said, he said, well, well,
51:53
Speaker 6: if you find something there that that won't mean anything,
51:56
Speaker 6: because every killer used that spot and me, me and
52:03
Speaker 6: me and one of the guys that was with me.
52:05
Speaker 6: After that conversation, you know, we're going back. I mean,
52:09
Speaker 6: it's just unbelieva. It's like, you know, we're we're picturing
52:12
Speaker 6: the john Wick Assassin Hotel. You know, he said you
52:15
Speaker 6: would go to that spot and you'd trip over other killers,
52:18
Speaker 6: you know where you were trying to get your time
52:20
Speaker 6: in there. I mean, it's just insane. And you know,
52:24
Speaker 6: at that location we haven't released it, but in a
52:27
Speaker 6: silo we found a button to a blouse and the
52:31
Speaker 6: middle part had been torn off, so a shirt had
52:33
Speaker 6: been ripped open or torn which would cause that to
52:37
Speaker 6: break off. And there is no reason that we can
52:41
Speaker 6: think of for it to be in that location. Why
52:44
Speaker 6: why a female would be inside of a silo and
52:49
Speaker 6: have something occurred in a grain silo that would cause
52:52
Speaker 6: her button to be ripped off of her shirt. So,
52:55
Speaker 6: you know, we we've got so many things that that.
52:59
Speaker 6: But you imagine nobody in law enforcement wants to touch BTK. Now,
53:06
Speaker 6: you know, when I go in to talk to Sheriff,
53:08
Speaker 6: they you know, a lot of times run from backwards
53:12
Speaker 6: because they don't want anything to do with that because
53:14
Speaker 6: of the baggage that comes along with this type of investigation.
53:19
Speaker 6: But my victim needs justice and her family needs answers.
53:25
Speaker 6: And I met with her parents years ago, and I
53:29
Speaker 6: had done other things on this case, and I promise
53:33
Speaker 6: them if I got anything, I would follow it to
53:36
Speaker 6: the end of the earth to get those answers. I
53:39
Speaker 6: don't want to work McDonald kin things. I don't want
53:42
Speaker 6: to work other things. I just want to find my girl.
53:46
Speaker 6: But you know how these cases are, it's again a
53:49
Speaker 6: domino effect. If I can get anything that's going to
53:55
Speaker 6: cause a chain of events that will will possibly reveal
54:00
Speaker 6: the location of my victim and get my case closed
54:04
Speaker 6: and my answers.
54:05
Speaker 1: You know, Sheriff, I'm just so so inspired that you are.
54:14
Speaker 1: You call these people the same thing. I called my
54:19
Speaker 1: people my victims. And you know, I've never heard anybody
54:23
Speaker 1: else say that in my life beside me. When you
54:28
Speaker 1: say my victim, I mean that tells me how much
54:33
Speaker 1: this means to you.
54:34
Speaker 6: Oh it does. And believe me, I won't stop off
54:38
Speaker 6: push as long and far as I can. And you know,
54:42
Speaker 6: I'm quite certain at this point I probably made a
54:45
Speaker 6: lot of other law enforcement to upset, you know, but again,
54:51
Speaker 6: you've got to and that's that's why, you know, we
54:56
Speaker 6: didn't release anything to me. The first time I talked
54:58
Speaker 6: to him, he called the reporter out of New York
55:01
Speaker 6: and they called me and I tried to talk to them.
55:03
Speaker 6: You know, hey, you know this is just routine. There
55:05
Speaker 6: might not be here. You know, I don't want to
55:08
Speaker 6: open wounds. But of course, you know, the story ran
55:12
Speaker 6: and caught some some buzz off that, but then died down,
55:17
Speaker 6: and we of course had continued. You know, we had
55:21
Speaker 6: done two prior digs at two different locations, one in Kansas,
55:27
Speaker 6: and we're lucky to not catch any attention on those.
55:30
Speaker 6: And you know, because it makes it easier to move
55:33
Speaker 6: around a lot of people when they see the media buzz,
55:36
Speaker 6: they don't want to talk to you because they're afraid.
55:39
Speaker 6: You know, they're going to walk out to get their
55:40
Speaker 6: mail and there's going to be fifteen different media outlets
55:43
Speaker 6: chasing around, ask some questions. You know, when you run
55:47
Speaker 6: up and you know this because you've been there, you know.
55:50
Speaker 6: You take a little couple that's been through forty some
55:54
Speaker 6: years of misery now knowing where the baby is, details wondering,
56:00
Speaker 6: you know, and they go to get their mail, and
56:02
Speaker 6: somebody comes running up and says, how do you feel, Nancy?
56:06
Speaker 6: You know how they feel?
56:07
Speaker 2: Terrible? It's terrible, you know.
56:09
Speaker 6: You don't even I mean, that's that's of course, that's
56:13
Speaker 6: where we live in today, you know, And that's why
56:16
Speaker 6: I try to push people, you know, to respect those families.
56:19
Speaker 6: And Carrie, Carrie is a phenomenal, phenomenal person. And Carrie
56:26
Speaker 6: is a true victim, just as she's as much of
56:30
Speaker 6: a victim as as the family members of the murdered people,
56:36
Speaker 6: and not just her, but her whole family. You know,
56:39
Speaker 6: I've been fortunate enough to to to visit with one
56:43
Speaker 6: other family member, and I can tell you the pain
56:48
Speaker 6: and the hurt and the things they live with. I mean,
56:51
Speaker 6: can you imagine, you know, you you have nothing to
56:56
Speaker 6: do with no knowledge't didn't didn't have anything. But anytime
57:00
Speaker 6: you go anywhere, you're not you your bt k's brother,
57:05
Speaker 6: or your bt k's daughter, your bt k's son, or
57:08
Speaker 6: your btk's wife. You know, if if bt k's grandkids,
57:14
Speaker 6: you know, or in school and people find out, what what?
57:17
Speaker 6: What are those other kids do? And then if they
57:20
Speaker 6: if they have friends and they say, hey, can I
57:22
Speaker 6: go over and stay the night there?
57:24
Speaker 2: What?
57:25
Speaker 6: What?
57:25
Speaker 11: What?
57:25
Speaker 6: Has had the world parents going to say? You see
57:29
Speaker 6: what I'm saying. I mean, people need to realize that
57:32
Speaker 6: that that that the suspects families.
57:35
Speaker 1: Have been through hell and the embarrassment and the shame
57:40
Speaker 1: attached to it much less we know the guy's a
57:43
Speaker 1: serial killer. How do you think he treated them growing up?
57:47
Speaker 1: I mean Carrie told me how awful he was to
57:51
Speaker 1: live with. Can you even imagine?
57:53
Speaker 2: Oh?
57:53
Speaker 6: Absolutely? But it's it's harder on on Carrie and the
57:58
Speaker 6: family than it is on the victims' families because you know,
58:02
Speaker 6: when the victim's family goes somewhere, people have compassion because
58:09
Speaker 6: of what they went through. But but when when the
58:13
Speaker 6: suspects family goes places, you know, it's a whole different deal.
58:18
Speaker 12: They're they're they're they're.
58:21
Speaker 6: Shunned, they're talked about, they're whispered about, and they're carrying
58:27
Speaker 6: a harder burder and people just really need to set back.
58:31
Speaker 1: I think the victims' family might disagree with you, because
58:34
Speaker 1: at least they're all alive. So it's that's a toss up.
58:38
Speaker 1: He was, you know, everybody suffered. Everybody has suffered.
58:42
Speaker 6: Don't don't get me wrong. I'm not downplaying that, but
58:46
Speaker 6: I'm saying victim's family has got compassion where where somebody
58:53
Speaker 6: like Carrie. You know, Carrie has told me she plans
58:57
Speaker 6: on advocating for victims as many years as Dennis tormented society,
59:04
Speaker 6: just trying to clear their name and do good where
59:10
Speaker 6: somebody did that, you know, and you've got to admire
59:13
Speaker 6: somebody that's done that. I can tell you she has
59:16
Speaker 6: been a tremendous asset to us. And if you go
59:19
Speaker 6: back and look at some of her early releases when
59:24
Speaker 6: this information broke, when Dennis put it out, you know,
59:28
Speaker 6: I mean, she she was like, I don't believe he
59:31
Speaker 6: did any of this, and then you know, through through time,
59:35
Speaker 6: we ended up with her actually getting to see some
59:40
Speaker 6: of the information we got and you know, she left
59:44
Speaker 6: here I believe in a better position personally, But not
59:49
Speaker 6: only that, she revealed a lot of really really good information,
59:54
Speaker 6: because some of the notations, when you're looking at him
59:57
Speaker 6: as a person not knowing everything, it doesn't really make
1:00:00
Speaker 6: a whole lot of sense. But if you go over
1:00:03
Speaker 6: those items with her, she can bring them to life
1:00:07
Speaker 6: and fill in the gaps and make it make perfect sense.
1:00:13
Speaker 7: She's the only outwitness.
1:00:16
Speaker 6: So you know, it's tremendous, and you know, I would
1:00:22
Speaker 6: love to bring some experts in because you know, the
1:00:29
Speaker 6: more recognition that they have, the more credibility they have,
1:00:33
Speaker 6: the more craction this is going to get. That is
1:00:37
Speaker 6: going to get the investigation done that needs to be done.
1:00:42
Speaker 6: You know, I don't know if you're aware of this
1:00:44
Speaker 6: or not, but Dennis talked for thirty hours basically, and
1:00:51
Speaker 6: lawyered up and then never never talked again. So the
1:00:56
Speaker 6: items collected in these search warrants, he was never interviewed
1:01:01
Speaker 6: item to item, And I've had an opportunity to go
1:01:06
Speaker 6: through some of these items with him that he hadn't
1:01:10
Speaker 6: seen since his arrest, and you can imagine how that was.
1:01:15
Speaker 6: But trying to get questions you know. I mean it's
1:01:20
Speaker 6: you know, there's things he can't explain off at all.
1:01:23
Speaker 6: You know, he's got kidnappings marked, not murders, but kidnapping
1:01:30
Speaker 6: marked in a certain time period. And I have found
1:01:35
Speaker 6: letters from people claiming to be victims that match his timeline,
1:01:42
Speaker 6: and we're in the process of running them down.
1:01:44
Speaker 1: Sheriff Rten, I just pray that you and your people
1:01:51
Speaker 1: maintained a strength physically, mentally, and emotionally to stay on betch,
1:02:00
Speaker 1: because I can only imagine what it feels like not
1:02:06
Speaker 1: to know what happened to your daughter, or your mother
1:02:11
Speaker 1: or your sister. I mean, my fiance was murdered. I
1:02:16
Speaker 1: know what happened, and I know who did it, and
1:02:20
Speaker 1: justice was sought, but I cannot imagine going through life wondering.
1:02:26
Speaker 1: And you are the person to give those families the answers.
1:02:35
Speaker 1: We pray for justice. God bless you sare Goodbye friend,