Latest / Honey Badger Radio / Do people understand personal agency anymore | HBR Talk 350

Transcript

Do people understand personal agency anymore | HBR Talk 350 · Honey Badger Radio

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Usa Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa, Usa,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Usa Usa Usa Usa Usa.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: U Usa, mhm, go watch.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: But the senator, while inductor nadd could not explain his toxicity.
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: Will such a.
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: Pression that don't work?
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: You should not listen to men'sies advocates. If you learn on,
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: then they have to say, brig.
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: Lay, let's get it. Let's just sad.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: Birds number z nine plural z alpha number that night, so.
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: Us gage all.
• 12:33
  Speaker 5: Echo cha house children and I'm children as okay, yeah,
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: no way, the pretty mush.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I said, I may be seen that you use
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: all my night.
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: This is wrong there, say the stranger.
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: Like a furry torpedo to the jugular. This is honey
• 13:16
  Speaker 5: badger radio with.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: What got work?
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: But the senator, while indoctrinated, could not explain his toxicity.
• 13:33
  Speaker 5: Him thought of Prussian thought work wonderful.
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: You should not listen to man's rights advocates. If you
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: lend on, then they have to say, people playing.
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: People calogae attempt.
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: I'm sure, let's be got it.
• 14:14
  Speaker 7: Frus first, that poor CNN beats them up, souls up
• 14:55
  Speaker 7: every time. Gosh, I had to do that. I had
• 14:58
  Speaker 7: to do that. Hello, and welcome to HBr Talk Tree Fitty,
• 15:03
  Speaker 7: do people understand personal agency anymore? I'm your host, Hannah
• 15:08
  Speaker 7: Wallen here with Nonsense annihilator Lauren Brooks. We don't have
• 15:11
  Speaker 7: a mic tonight, but we got two microphones. No turntable, sorry,
• 15:18
  Speaker 7: go backwards anyway. It's two turntables and microphones. Microphone. Yeah,
• 15:23
  Speaker 7: but we don't have a term Actually somewhere actually in
• 15:27
  Speaker 7: the living room here with me, I do have a turntable.
• 15:32
  Speaker 8: I have all of my father's old vinyl records.
• 15:35
  Speaker 9: Oh man, viby would love to get a turntable to
• 15:41
  Speaker 9: Amazon to the songs that I did.
• 15:43
  Speaker 8: Yeah, you know what good job.
• 15:46
  Speaker 7: I think I'm to do that. They have everything, but
• 15:50
  Speaker 7: ours actually was a local purchase. But in any case, yeah,
• 15:55
  Speaker 7: that's I guess everybody's going back to that because the
• 15:57
  Speaker 7: vinyl is superior to with CDs.
• 16:01
  Speaker 9: Just general, it's just so much better, and we've gotten
• 16:05
  Speaker 9: so far away from actually owning physical copies.
• 16:08
  Speaker 8: If the service just shuts.
• 16:11
  Speaker 7: Down, then there goes all the movies or videos or
• 16:15
  Speaker 7: oh yeah, there's like whole subredits looking for lost media.
• 16:19
  Speaker 7: Some of them are more topic specific and others are
• 16:23
  Speaker 7: just pretty much generalized. Lost media. But yeah, it just
• 16:27
  Speaker 7: goes to show that there are some old fashioned values
• 16:29
  Speaker 7: that are really important, like the one we're going to
• 16:33
  Speaker 7: talk about tonight. I bet you guys didn't think I
• 16:37
  Speaker 7: could tie that in. But before we get into that,
• 16:44
  Speaker 7: as always, we've got to do what we got to do,
• 16:47
  Speaker 7: and that is remind you that Honey Badgery Radio dishes
• 16:50
  Speaker 7: out a smorgasboard of thought provoking discussions, and as experiences
• 16:55
  Speaker 7: both recent and long past have demonstrated, the provoked thoughts
• 16:59
  Speaker 7: are fighting back. They made it clear that for people
• 17:02
  Speaker 7: like us, relying on third party payment platforms like Patreon
• 17:05
  Speaker 7: to fund our work is treading on thin ice or
• 17:09
  Speaker 7: building our house in the path of a rapidly growing wildfire.
• 17:12
  Speaker 7: In light of this, we strongly encourage our supporters to
• 17:15
  Speaker 7: switch their support for us to feed the Badger dot
• 17:17
  Speaker 7: Com the most stable way to help us out, and
• 17:20
  Speaker 7: if you want to tip us directly instead of relying
• 17:22
  Speaker 7: on any social media platforms, tip jar. The link for
• 17:25
  Speaker 7: that is feed the Badger dot Com slash just the tip,
• 17:28
  Speaker 7: And as always, the same risk applies to our social
• 17:31
  Speaker 7: media platforms, which is why you should further provoke the
• 17:35
  Speaker 7: thought police by tracking our thought provoking discussions on Honeybadger
• 17:38
  Speaker 7: Brigade dot com, where you can find your way to
• 17:41
  Speaker 7: all of our content, as well as a link to
• 17:43
  Speaker 7: feed the Badger dot Com in the drop down menu
• 17:45
  Speaker 7: at the top of the page. Our title tonight, do
• 17:49
  Speaker 7: people Understand Personal Agency Anymore? Like when I was going
• 17:54
  Speaker 7: through and seeing if I wanted to look at any
• 17:57
  Speaker 7: more of this particular research paper on the show, which
• 18:03
  Speaker 7: I don't really think it's worth it. It's essentially we've
• 18:07
  Speaker 7: heard this all before, Like it's stuff we've heard before,
• 18:11
  Speaker 7: and there's not anything we haven't argued against already, so
• 18:16
  Speaker 7: it's going to be redundant in terms of HBr talk discussions.
• 18:20
  Speaker 7: But I did still want to finish out explanation of
• 18:23
  Speaker 7: why she's doing this research what she basically objects to
• 18:28
  Speaker 7: in terms of what happened in the Carter case, because
• 18:31
  Speaker 7: that's really the meat of this everything else about it
• 18:35
  Speaker 7: is essentially I could summarize this entire paper with my
• 18:40
  Speaker 7: methodology was going through news stories and cherry picking things
• 18:45
  Speaker 7: to use in arguments against things that I cherry picked
• 18:50
  Speaker 7: to create a straw man case that would be easier
• 18:53
  Speaker 7: to deal with than what really happened, and my conclusions
• 18:57
  Speaker 7: were predictably, that poor car was treated unfairly in the
• 19:02
  Speaker 7: court system. That's pretty much how you could summarize this paper.
• 19:06
  Speaker 7: And so I just want to go through the last
• 19:08
  Speaker 7: little bit here. And remember we read previously that she's
• 19:14
  Speaker 7: framing this as Michelle Carter being unfairly villainized for telling
• 19:21
  Speaker 7: a guy to get back into the truck when he
• 19:24
  Speaker 7: called her for help during a suicide and he got
• 19:28
  Speaker 7: out and called her because he was scared, and she
• 19:32
  Speaker 7: browbed him into getting back in the truck, and apparently
• 19:36
  Speaker 7: it was unfair and a reliance on her femininity to
• 19:42
  Speaker 7: treat that behavior is inappropriate. The Carter case is a
• 19:47
  Speaker 7: noteworthy account of the long legacy of criminalizing girls virtual communication.
• 19:57
  Speaker 7: So she's comparing it to online bullying, like the time
• 20:04
  Speaker 7: that a couple of girls were threatened with jail here
• 20:06
  Speaker 7: in Ohio for basically defending the boys in the Stubenville
• 20:13
  Speaker 7: case and calling the accuser a liar. Yeah, remember that case,
• 20:20
  Speaker 7: And the Attorney General's office basically told them to take
• 20:23
  Speaker 7: the post down, put them actually in lock up overnight,
• 20:28
  Speaker 7: scared the crap out of them like that was the goal,
• 20:31
  Speaker 7: and threatened them with prosecution. If they said anything else
• 20:35
  Speaker 7: about it. But I don't think this woman would have
• 20:39
  Speaker 7: an objection to that because those girls were she would
• 20:43
  Speaker 7: say they were bullying rape victim. Yeah, the long legacy
• 20:51
  Speaker 7: of criminalizing girl's virtual communication. In portraying Michelle as manipulating
• 20:57
  Speaker 7: Conrad to die by suicide, the media narrative reframes Conrad
• 21:03
  Speaker 7: as an innocent boy who did not choose to kill himself,
• 21:06
  Speaker 7: but instead was driven to suicide by the imaginations of
• 21:09
  Speaker 7: a calculating girl with selfish motives. So here, this is
• 21:14
  Speaker 7: an interesting tactic. Right, She's already in the Mott Bailey,
• 21:18
  Speaker 7: where she has argued the mott of you can't condemn
• 21:22
  Speaker 7: all girls social media speech, when the bailey is actually
• 21:27
  Speaker 7: you should be able to tell people to kill themselves
• 21:29
  Speaker 7: online and in text and not be considered accountable for it.
• 21:36
  Speaker 9: Yeah, it's so fucking insane to me because you ask
• 21:40
  Speaker 9: any and I always I hate these lines, like because
• 21:44
  Speaker 9: you can't just call someone a feminist, right because if
• 21:47
  Speaker 9: they don't claim that they're a feminist, but they still
• 21:50
  Speaker 9: espouse these feminist beliefs, right, Yeah, these types of people.
• 21:56
  Speaker 8: Will always go and say, oh, men are the biggest harassmers. Online.
• 22:01
  Speaker 8: That's not true. And PE Research has done.
• 22:05
  Speaker 9: The studies and basically confirm that women are the biggest
• 22:11
  Speaker 9: harassers online. So how is it that we just get
• 22:15
  Speaker 9: to flip the script and say, oh, no, it's not
• 22:18
  Speaker 9: her fault, she didn't do.
• 22:20
  Speaker 7: Anything wrong, she didn't do nothing right. And it really
• 22:27
  Speaker 7: it starts to grind your gears when you realize she
• 22:30
  Speaker 7: is equating calling someone a bitch online or arguing back
• 22:36
  Speaker 7: against something someone said online, which a lot of feminists
• 22:39
  Speaker 7: do call online harassment with browbeating somebody into completing a
• 22:44
  Speaker 7: suicide that they were backing off from doing. Yeah, and
• 22:48
  Speaker 7: there's a huge difference there. I wouldn't in a million
• 22:51
  Speaker 7: years suggest that any of the people who have even
• 22:55
  Speaker 7: the people who have told me to commit suicide, like
• 22:58
  Speaker 7: they don't know me, they don't know my situation. But
• 23:00
  Speaker 7: I wouldn't suggest that was something that anyone should be
• 23:04
  Speaker 7: jailed for. But in the moment when Carter did this,
• 23:11
  Speaker 7: she knew the guy she was talking to was in
• 23:15
  Speaker 7: the midst of making a very fearful decision. He was
• 23:21
  Speaker 7: afraid to live and he was afraid to die, and
• 23:25
  Speaker 7: she decided which thing for him he should be more
• 23:28
  Speaker 7: afraid of by browbeating him.
• 23:31
  Speaker 8: There's no way you can argue against her knowing the state.
• 23:35
  Speaker 7: Of his mind. The text messages show that they talked
• 23:38
  Speaker 7: about this for a long time.
• 23:40
  Speaker 8: Miss me with that oh she was she didn't know
• 23:43
  Speaker 8: what he was going to do.
• 23:45
  Speaker 7: Shut up, yeah, shut up.
• 23:49
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 23:49
  Speaker 7: And it is entirely different from going a little too
• 23:54
  Speaker 7: far with angry banter. It's very different from that, different
• 23:59
  Speaker 7: from getting into an argument and saying harsh words.
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, but yeah.
• 24:07
  Speaker 7: As far as her motives in this instance matter very little.
• 24:13
  Speaker 7: What matters is the outcome exactly. It doesn't matter if
• 24:17
  Speaker 7: her motives were selfish or if she thought she was
• 24:19
  Speaker 7: doing the right thing, like in terms of whether she's
• 24:23
  Speaker 7: guilty and the court decided that she was. What matters
• 24:29
  Speaker 7: is that her actions made the difference between life or death.
• 24:35
  Speaker 7: And agency. Personal agency is not just your intentions. Personal
• 24:41
  Speaker 7: agency is your choices. It's about the fact that when
• 24:46
  Speaker 7: you make a choice, it's something you did, it's not
• 24:50
  Speaker 7: something that was imposed on you. It's not something that
• 24:52
  Speaker 7: you have no responsibility for. And one of the heartbreaking
• 24:57
  Speaker 7: things about this is there is the belief, and more
• 25:03
  Speaker 7: than one religion, that there's a hell and if you
• 25:06
  Speaker 7: commit suicide, it's the ultimate offense against the deity of
• 25:09
  Speaker 7: the religion. So there may be mourners for this boy
• 25:14
  Speaker 7: who are contending with that. And if it is something
• 25:18
  Speaker 7: that whether you believe in it or not, it doesn't
• 25:21
  Speaker 7: really matter in terms of us as a movement, whether
• 25:25
  Speaker 7: the movement is on the same page regarding beliefs about heaven, hell, suicide,
• 25:32
  Speaker 7: or so on. You have to think about this. Imagine
• 25:36
  Speaker 7: you're that kid's dad, and you do believe that your
• 25:39
  Speaker 7: son did something irreversible that he will be judged for
• 25:44
  Speaker 7: because it is his personal agency when he steps back
• 25:47
  Speaker 7: into the truck too, even though he was manipulated, and
• 25:50
  Speaker 7: even though he was browbeaten by this girl, because the
• 25:55
  Speaker 7: court's deciding her personal agency for that. Imagine you have
• 25:59
  Speaker 7: to go there the rest of your life thinking that
• 26:01
  Speaker 7: your son is in hell right because of your religion.
• 26:07
  Speaker 7: And it doesn't matter whether the public agrees with your
• 26:11
  Speaker 7: religion or not. Whether that's the dad's religion and you
• 26:14
  Speaker 7: disagree with it, it doesn't change what the dad experiences
• 26:19
  Speaker 7: or the mom. I think both parents would be equally
• 26:22
  Speaker 7: distressed over it. Mom might express it in different ways
• 26:25
  Speaker 7: in the dad, but it would. I have a family
• 26:29
  Speaker 7: member who was excommunicated from the Catholic Church back in
• 26:35
  Speaker 7: the day. This isn't somebody that I grew up with,
• 26:38
  Speaker 7: but I do know that he descended into alcoholism because
• 26:42
  Speaker 7: of the fear that that led to that he had
• 26:46
  Speaker 7: zero chance. There was no way he was ever going
• 26:49
  Speaker 7: to be redeemed. He was doomed. The rest of his
• 26:52
  Speaker 7: life was pointless and meaningless. That's basically what he was told.
• 26:57
  Speaker 7: And as bad as that is to experience that, in
• 27:00
  Speaker 7: regard to yourself, your whole life after becoming a parent
• 27:04
  Speaker 7: is about protecting and providing for and taking care of
• 27:06
  Speaker 7: your children until they're adults, and even after they're adults,
• 27:11
  Speaker 7: there are still many times when you put them first,
• 27:18
  Speaker 7: especially when they're young adults. They're just getting started in
• 27:21
  Speaker 7: the world and you're very focused on their welfare. And
• 27:28
  Speaker 7: that would be the ultimate horror to believe that about
• 27:32
  Speaker 7: your child. You would think your whole life, the rest
• 27:38
  Speaker 7: of your life, what I do wrong? Yeah, And if
• 27:44
  Speaker 7: of suicide in the afterlife, as suicides go to hell,
• 27:49
  Speaker 7: personal agency is you got back in the truck, and
• 27:52
  Speaker 7: the agency in the court system is it doesn't matter
• 27:56
  Speaker 7: if it was his action ultimately getting back in the truck.
• 28:01
  Speaker 7: You're the one who told him to do it, right,
• 28:05
  Speaker 7: all of those represent agency. Yeah, were you gonna say something?
• 28:13
  Speaker 9: Even if you take the religiosity out of it, you're
• 28:16
  Speaker 9: still stuck with that sort of is there something that
• 28:20
  Speaker 9: I could have done? Did I do something wrong? When
• 28:23
  Speaker 9: you're a parent, Now, I'm speaking out of class here
• 28:26
  Speaker 9: because I don't have kids. However, I do have an
• 28:29
  Speaker 9: ethan nephew. When the emotions run similarly, right, because if
• 28:35
  Speaker 9: either one of them had expressed anything like this, or
• 28:38
  Speaker 9: if I thought for a bleeding moment that there was
• 28:43
  Speaker 9: something that was causing them to feel this way or
• 28:47
  Speaker 9: someone in their.
• 28:48
  Speaker 8: Lives, I just would have got it. Just don't touch them.
• 28:58
  Speaker 9: If anyone even thought about harming one of them, I
• 29:03
  Speaker 9: would just go into full rage mode.
• 29:05
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 29:06
  Speaker 7: You do anything, you protect your family. Your loved ones
• 29:09
  Speaker 7: are the most important people in your life, right and
• 29:12
  Speaker 7: for most people, your family is first. There's no substitute
• 29:17
  Speaker 7: for that love. And when someone loses someone to a
• 29:20
  Speaker 7: situation like this, it does create rage response. Pain and
• 29:28
  Speaker 7: rage often go together, right. Yeah, But in the end,
• 29:34
  Speaker 7: the parents are going to be beating themselves up for
• 29:36
  Speaker 7: the rest of their lives. Maybe they went through therapy
• 29:39
  Speaker 7: and maybe they had found some ways to reduce that,
• 29:44
  Speaker 7: but it always comes back, even small things that happen
• 29:47
  Speaker 7: to your family that can lead to that, Even things
• 29:51
  Speaker 7: that you can look at and say, my family member
• 29:55
  Speaker 7: was clearly the victim of this other person who did
• 29:59
  Speaker 7: this active decision to them, You still wish there was
• 30:06
  Speaker 7: something you could have done, or you still think back,
• 30:09
  Speaker 7: could I have warned them? Could I have gotten them
• 30:11
  Speaker 7: to make a different decision.
• 30:13
  Speaker 8: There's always that thought in your head.
• 30:15
  Speaker 9: Right, there's things that have happened in my life, just
• 30:18
  Speaker 9: the weirdest little situations, right, that had the conversations linger
• 30:23
  Speaker 9: in your brain for years and years. And even if
• 30:26
  Speaker 9: there are of no consequence, right, there's always that part
• 30:31
  Speaker 9: of me that says, even though I know that there's
• 30:34
  Speaker 9: nothing that I can do to change it, right, it's
• 30:37
  Speaker 9: just the way it is.
• 30:38
  Speaker 8: And I can just easily move on with my life.
• 30:41
  Speaker 8: There is always that part of me.
• 30:44
  Speaker 9: If you are a person who takes accountability for your actions,
• 30:48
  Speaker 9: there's always going to be a part of you that
• 30:50
  Speaker 9: says that, ah, God, but I could have done something different, Right,
• 30:55
  Speaker 9: But I could have, and I think it's if you
• 30:59
  Speaker 9: drown yourself in that constant cycle of thinking, that is,
• 31:06
  Speaker 9: it's not beneficial to you, right, because obviously your life
• 31:10
  Speaker 9: has to move on. But again, it's people who are
• 31:14
  Speaker 9: ultra accountable for their actions who are subject to this,
• 31:19
  Speaker 9: and young girls like this who clearly didn't care about
• 31:25
  Speaker 9: anyone else but herself, seemingly has no remorse for what happened,
• 31:32
  Speaker 9: so she could just easily just say, oh, why didn't you,
• 31:35
  Speaker 9: Why haven't you done it yet?
• 31:36
  Speaker 8: Why are you still breathing?
• 31:39
  Speaker 7: It's one of those, And of course her arguments in
• 31:44
  Speaker 7: court revolved around her mental state, and that can affect
• 31:51
  Speaker 7: Having agency is essentially the ability to initiate and direct
• 31:56
  Speaker 7: actions toward achieving something that you're trying to achieve, right,
• 32:00
  Speaker 7: And your agency can be increased or reduced by factors
• 32:05
  Speaker 7: that touch that. If you make a decision based on
• 32:08
  Speaker 7: the factors that are in front of you that you
• 32:11
  Speaker 7: know about, and there's a factor that you could not,
• 32:14
  Speaker 7: under any circumstances, have known unless someone else took an
• 32:18
  Speaker 7: action to reveal it to you and they chose not to,
• 32:20
  Speaker 7: and it would have changed your decision. That detracts from
• 32:25
  Speaker 7: your accountability based on the idea that your agency was
• 32:28
  Speaker 7: slightly mitigated by that factor not being revealed to you.
• 32:33
  Speaker 7: And so there are things like that where if an
• 32:37
  Speaker 7: earthly court were to determine it's illegal to commit suicide,
• 32:43
  Speaker 7: if somebody caught him in the act and stopped it
• 32:46
  Speaker 7: from happening, and he survived, and they decided that the
• 32:51
  Speaker 7: best way to get him into an institution where it
• 32:53
  Speaker 7: could get help was to prosecute him, they might have
• 32:58
  Speaker 7: mitigated his agency, his personal agency in the moment based
• 33:03
  Speaker 7: on what she did. Understanding your personal agency is the
• 33:08
  Speaker 7: ability to recognize that your direct actions towards achieving whatever
• 33:14
  Speaker 7: goal you were trying to achieve are your fault, your choice,
• 33:18
  Speaker 7: your decision. You can't blame them all on someone else. Yeah,
• 33:23
  Speaker 7: In terms of this report, she's looking at the situation
• 33:27
  Speaker 7: from the perspective that the fact that he got back
• 33:30
  Speaker 7: in the truck, that it was his body, he moved
• 33:33
  Speaker 7: it through the use of his signals from his brain
• 33:37
  Speaker 7: to his nerves, and she didn't have puppet strings. That
• 33:41
  Speaker 7: makes him solely responsible and nothing she did should be
• 33:47
  Speaker 7: considered criminal. That's the perspective that we're seeing here, Whereas
• 33:53
  Speaker 7: if you look at any other type of con job.
• 34:00
  Speaker 7: Someone sells you a bill of goods, lies to you
• 34:04
  Speaker 7: about product and make sure you don't have access to
• 34:09
  Speaker 7: accurate information about it, and you give them money and
• 34:12
  Speaker 7: then you don't get the product or the product isn't
• 34:14
  Speaker 7: what they said. If you go to court over it
• 34:17
  Speaker 7: and you can prove that the information you were given
• 34:21
  Speaker 7: was inaccurate and that it was a deliberate decision on
• 34:24
  Speaker 7: the part of the person selling to you, they can
• 34:27
  Speaker 7: be convicted of fraud. They can be convicted of a crime.
• 34:31
  Speaker 7: Then I would say, encouraging him to get back in
• 34:35
  Speaker 7: the truck and selling it as the right decision and
• 34:41
  Speaker 7: the decision he wants the most, the decision that he
• 34:46
  Speaker 7: fears the least, is a type of fraud. Yeah, especially
• 34:54
  Speaker 7: considering he had gotten out and called her in fear.
• 34:59
  Speaker 7: So this woman then goes on. This writer goes on
• 35:02
  Speaker 7: to say, this examination of the media coverage of the
• 35:07
  Speaker 7: Michelle Carter case considers the implications of a narrative that
• 35:11
  Speaker 7: suggests girls can manipulate others to die by suicide using
• 35:15
  Speaker 7: virtual communication. So that's her objection. Her objection is that
• 35:22
  Speaker 7: it's being acknowledged that you can bully someone into suicide
• 35:29
  Speaker 7: using communication that is virtual instead of direct and verbal,
• 35:38
  Speaker 7: which implies that technology somehow acts as a cushion to
• 35:43
  Speaker 7: make hurdy words less hurdy? Am I off base? Seeing
• 35:50
  Speaker 7: that in that statement, no, not at all?
• 35:56
  Speaker 9: Then she goes on, this author is trying to say
• 35:59
  Speaker 9: that for some reason, we can't try to understand or
• 36:05
  Speaker 9: there's no way possible that we can understand.
• 36:07
  Speaker 8: What was going on through her head.
• 36:10
  Speaker 9: Yet she's not responsible at all for her assumptions of
• 36:16
  Speaker 9: what was going on in his head when she tried
• 36:19
  Speaker 9: to manipulate him. That just doesn't happen. It's just because
• 36:23
  Speaker 9: she used a cell phone and she's a female. It's
• 36:26
  Speaker 9: just not possible.
• 36:28
  Speaker 7: Now there's another context that I want to add here, right,
• 36:33
  Speaker 7: and this people really should consider. There are laws being
• 36:37
  Speaker 7: passed in Europe against online misogyny, and misogyny is very
• 36:46
  Speaker 7: broadly defined to include not just overtly hateful statements, things
• 36:53
  Speaker 7: that would be considered hate speech if you said them,
• 36:56
  Speaker 7: for instance, based on somebody's race or their national origin,
• 37:02
  Speaker 7: but also any kind of criticism like it's online misogyny
• 37:07
  Speaker 7: if you criticize Jodi Arius for killing her ex fiance,
• 37:14
  Speaker 7: you're too harsh in your description of the type of
• 37:17
  Speaker 7: person who would approach somebody in their most vulnerable moments,
• 37:21
  Speaker 7: slash their throat, shoot them and stab them over twenty times,
• 37:27
  Speaker 7: almost thirty actually in order to kill them. You can't
• 37:31
  Speaker 7: say mean things about her for doing that because she
• 37:35
  Speaker 7: she's a girl.
• 37:37
  Speaker 9: Yeah, Like, the most offensive thing you could do is
• 37:40
  Speaker 9: offend her nature a completely aside from the fact that
• 37:46
  Speaker 9: she actually murdered someone, it's more offensive that you hurt
• 37:52
  Speaker 9: her feelings.
• 37:53
  Speaker 7: Or you hurt other girl's feelings by using hurty, anti
• 37:57
  Speaker 7: female words to describe a vicious, brutal, violent killer. And
• 38:06
  Speaker 7: part of the narrative that's being used to promote these laws,
• 38:12
  Speaker 7: part of the narrative that's being used to suggest that
• 38:16
  Speaker 7: you shouldn't be able to say somebody who would stab
• 38:21
  Speaker 7: somebody to death, slash their throat and shoot them, well
• 38:25
  Speaker 7: they're naked in the shower is a fucking bitch. You're
• 38:30
  Speaker 7: not allowed to say that no to me might lead
• 38:34
  Speaker 7: to somebody.
• 38:34
  Speaker 8: Feel How dare you disparage her character? Lead what?
• 38:40
  Speaker 7: No, it's because bitch is considered to be a misogynistic term.
• 38:44
  Speaker 7: If you said something else nasty, call her a murderer,
• 38:48
  Speaker 7: call her violent, aggressive, evil, suggest that when she dies,
• 38:54
  Speaker 7: she's going to burn in hell unless she is redeemed
• 38:57
  Speaker 7: by some religion anything else like that, you could get
• 39:01
  Speaker 7: away with saying, but you can't hurl the word bitch
• 39:07
  Speaker 7: at a violent, brutal murderer because that's gendered, even though
• 39:13
  Speaker 7: it's not. Guys get called bitches too, and that that
• 39:19
  Speaker 7: is being promoted, that kind of legislative silencing is being
• 39:23
  Speaker 7: promoted on the idea that hurdy words online cause people
• 39:27
  Speaker 7: to commit suicide.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:30
  Speaker 7: Yeah, so when it's directed at women and girls, yeah,
• 39:35
  Speaker 7: they'll admit that to hurdy words online caused suicide. But
• 39:40
  Speaker 7: when it was done to a boy, suddenly it's not
• 39:46
  Speaker 7: that big of a deal. Yeah, Oh it was his fault. Yeah,
• 39:51
  Speaker 7: how dare he be hurt? So she goes on to say,
• 39:55
  Speaker 7: I attempt to highlight cultural desires and anxieties about that
• 40:00
  Speaker 7: are reflected in and produced by the public discourse that
• 40:03
  Speaker 7: emerged in the media following Conrad's death. Well also noting
• 40:07
  Speaker 7: the cursoral logics at work in this case. So when
• 40:11
  Speaker 7: she says cultural desires and anxieties about girls, remember that
• 40:15
  Speaker 7: earlier she talked about this as as evidence of a
• 40:19
  Speaker 7: woman's perceived duty to act in a more feminine, caregiving way.
• 40:27
  Speaker 7: And I want to remind people. If you're standing on
• 40:30
  Speaker 7: a street corner and you're across the street from a
• 40:35
  Speaker 7: rite aid and you see somebody bust open a window
• 40:39
  Speaker 7: and go inside, you have a legal obligation to report,
• 40:45
  Speaker 7: to call the police. Somebody just broke into the right
• 40:48
  Speaker 7: aid across the street from me. I'm on the corner
• 40:50
  Speaker 7: of street and street name, and you have a duty
• 40:54
  Speaker 7: to give the best description you can accurately give what
• 40:58
  Speaker 7: you saw, and you have a duty to file a complaint.
• 41:04
  Speaker 7: You don't work there, you don't have any stake in right,
• 41:07
  Speaker 7: It doesn't matter if it's somebody's house. Same thing. If
• 41:11
  Speaker 7: you're working in an office and you're a coworker embezzles
• 41:16
  Speaker 7: and you find out and you don't report it, there
• 41:19
  Speaker 7: can be criminal repercussions for that that you didn't say anything.
• 41:24
  Speaker 7: But somehow, when it's a chick who is actively badgering
• 41:32
  Speaker 7: somebody into committing suicide, she doesn't have that same duty
• 41:36
  Speaker 7: that everyone else has.
• 41:40
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 41:40
  Speaker 9: No, and especially not when the person being acted upon
• 41:45
  Speaker 9: is a male. Again, it just goes way back into
• 41:49
  Speaker 9: this whole male disposability thing, because if this was female
• 41:53
  Speaker 9: on female violence.
• 41:55
  Speaker 8: I guarantee there would not be articles written years.
• 42:00
  Speaker 9: After the fact trying to scapegoat and blame anyone or
• 42:05
  Speaker 9: anything else.
• 42:06
  Speaker 8: As to what her actual motive was. It just would
• 42:10
  Speaker 8: not happen. It wouldn't happen.
• 42:14
  Speaker 7: Yeah, No, because the target was male. It gives her
• 42:19
  Speaker 7: a black and white view good and evil. Girls are good,
• 42:22
  Speaker 7: boys are evil. And that's if it was girls against girls.
• 42:26
  Speaker 7: It becomes this whole nuanced discussion where both sides have
• 42:31
  Speaker 7: to be right about something, and therefore both sides have
• 42:35
  Speaker 7: to be wrong about something. Yeah, and it's that when
• 42:38
  Speaker 7: you see anti feminists arguing with feminists about issues pertaining
• 42:43
  Speaker 7: to men and boys, like, all of a sudden, the
• 42:47
  Speaker 7: anti feminists are bullies, even if it's your original post
• 42:52
  Speaker 7: and feminists jumped in underneath to say nasty things to
• 42:55
  Speaker 7: you about it. I've actually experienced that directly. I always
• 42:59
  Speaker 7: think it's funny because I basically just posted the equivalent
• 43:04
  Speaker 7: of men are good and she told me to die,
• 43:07
  Speaker 7: and you're calling me the bad guy for getting annoyed
• 43:09
  Speaker 7: about it. She goes on to admit, my analysis aims
• 43:14
  Speaker 7: to make visible the taken for granted ideas about normative femininity,
• 43:20
  Speaker 7: i e. Girls are natural caregivers inherent within the media
• 43:24
  Speaker 7: discourse surrounding the Carter case, while also pointing to the
• 43:28
  Speaker 7: systemic issues that may be at play in the pathalization
• 43:32
  Speaker 7: of girls communication. So I'm going to point out here
• 43:37
  Speaker 7: I read article after article about this when it was happening,
• 43:40
  Speaker 7: when the case was happening, because we did an episode
• 43:43
  Speaker 7: on proxy violence as Women's not so secret weapon against men,
• 43:49
  Speaker 7: and I included the Carter case in the opener about that.
• 43:54
  Speaker 7: We then discussed more about the case during the live
• 43:58
  Speaker 7: stream that we did on that. And this is years ago, right,
• 44:02
  Speaker 7: This is early on when HBr talk was a thing.
• 44:06
  Speaker 7: In fact, I don't remember whether it was before or
• 44:09
  Speaker 7: after we switched from calling it the Pussycat Cast to
• 44:12
  Speaker 7: calling it HBr talk. That's how old it is. In
• 44:15
  Speaker 7: any case, there were no articles that suggested that the
• 44:22
  Speaker 7: reason it was wrong for her to tell him to
• 44:25
  Speaker 7: get back into the truck and continue breathing poisonous fumes
• 44:30
  Speaker 7: until he died was strictly because she was female, And
• 44:35
  Speaker 7: there were no articles that suggested that the reason she
• 44:39
  Speaker 7: should have told an adult when she was receiving communications
• 44:43
  Speaker 7: her boyfriend that he might commit suicide had anything to
• 44:47
  Speaker 7: do with her gender. Yeah, they suggested that being a
• 44:54
  Speaker 7: person who supposedly loved him, she should have cared enough
• 45:00
  Speaker 7: to say something to an adult being in an environment
• 45:03
  Speaker 7: where she has received education, telling her to report in
• 45:11
  Speaker 7: a circumstance like that, because she was an attendee of
• 45:15
  Speaker 7: the public school system, and like those kind of lessons,
• 45:20
  Speaker 7: those kind of admonitions, and you hear them in health class,
• 45:25
  Speaker 7: you hear them in gym class, you hear them in
• 45:26
  Speaker 7: other classes sometimes too. And if there is a student
• 45:31
  Speaker 7: that is killed in a tragic way that involves something
• 45:34
  Speaker 7: that students knew about and didn't talk about, there's almost
• 45:39
  Speaker 7: always like some kind of assembly where that gets discussed.
• 45:43
  Speaker 7: You get these messages over and over again. So she
• 45:46
  Speaker 7: had every reason to report to an adult. Hey this
• 45:50
  Speaker 7: is going on. I'm trusting you to help me help
• 45:52
  Speaker 7: this kid. And she didn't do it. It has nothing
• 45:56
  Speaker 7: to do with her sex. It has everything to do
• 45:58
  Speaker 7: with her being human. Yeah, but that's what this woman
• 46:03
  Speaker 7: is focusing on. Oh, they're only mad that she didn't
• 46:08
  Speaker 7: act as a feminine caregiver. And it's only girls communication
• 46:14
  Speaker 7: that's pathologized, not I'm sorry.
• 46:16
  Speaker 9: In my many decades circling this fucking earth, caregiving is.
• 46:22
  Speaker 8: Not a gendered thing.
• 46:25
  Speaker 9: Men can give care to other people who are less
• 46:30
  Speaker 9: able to look after their own well being. Yeah, and
• 46:34
  Speaker 9: like Jesus Christ, there are entire occupations that have a
• 46:39
  Speaker 9: duty to report when they see.
• 46:42
  Speaker 8: Things that are don't look right.
• 46:47
  Speaker 9: Instinctual response is not something that is given to the
• 46:55
  Speaker 9: general population.
• 46:56
  Speaker 8: And I understand why that is.
• 46:58
  Speaker 9: It can't be just everybody has to If you see something,
• 47:01
  Speaker 9: you've got to say something, like they like to say
• 47:03
  Speaker 9: in the subways, because most people just don't care, they.
• 47:07
  Speaker 8: Are more concerned about their own well.
• 47:09
  Speaker 7: Being, or they assume somebody else is going to do
• 47:12
  Speaker 7: something about it, exactly like. In fact, that's the bystander effect.
• 47:16
  Speaker 7: The more bystanders there are, the more people are likely
• 47:20
  Speaker 7: to assume that somebody else is going to handle the situation.
• 47:24
  Speaker 7: As a result of that assumption to do nothing.
• 47:28
  Speaker 9: I think we have infantilized women to the point where
• 47:32
  Speaker 9: they are just automatically by default, they are not responsible.
• 47:39
  Speaker 9: They're not the ones that have to say anything because
• 47:42
  Speaker 9: they themselves feel like I need my level of protection.
• 47:46
  Speaker 7: What really gets me is that the way that this
• 47:49
  Speaker 7: woman is framing things. We are supposed to view women
• 47:53
  Speaker 7: as automatic bystanders. Default bystanders, even when they are directly
• 48:00
  Speaker 7: involves corrects. So when you talk about the bystander effect,
• 48:04
  Speaker 7: usually the example being given is somebody being mugged or
• 48:09
  Speaker 7: murdered on the street, and the violence against the victim
• 48:14
  Speaker 7: is witnessed by a crowd of people. Whether it draws
• 48:18
  Speaker 7: a crowd, whether it happens in the midst of a crowd,
• 48:21
  Speaker 7: doesn't matter. Something terrible is being done by one person
• 48:25
  Speaker 7: to another person. It's obviously wrong, it's obviously something that
• 48:32
  Speaker 7: should be stopped. The person experiencing it is obviously a victim.
• 48:36
  Speaker 7: The person doing it is obviously a perpetrator. There is
• 48:40
  Speaker 7: a high percentage of people who won't get involved, specifically
• 48:45
  Speaker 7: because they assume it's not their business, and somebody else
• 48:49
  Speaker 7: who is better qualified than them will get involved and
• 48:52
  Speaker 7: do something, and there will even be people standing there going,
• 48:54
  Speaker 7: oh my god, this is terrible. Somebody needs to do something,
• 48:57
  Speaker 7: and they don't think of themselves as somebody exactly Like,
• 49:00
  Speaker 7: the most poignant question I ever heard somebody ask in
• 49:05
  Speaker 7: my entire life was aren't we somebody? It's the people
• 49:10
  Speaker 7: who ask aren't we somebody that are the ones who
• 49:14
  Speaker 7: initiate whole new areas of medicine, or who create whole
• 49:19
  Speaker 7: new areas of public safety, or new ways of protecting
• 49:26
  Speaker 7: safety in the workplace, or step forward to stop the
• 49:31
  Speaker 7: perpetrator in that situation, and that bystander effect leads to
• 49:39
  Speaker 7: people condemning the person who does step forward as underqualified.
• 49:44
  Speaker 7: In most cases, this wasn't a cop. Why did he
• 49:47
  Speaker 7: do it? Did Daniel Penny situation? Like Kyle Rittenhouse. Kyle
• 49:51
  Speaker 7: Rittenhouse chose not to be a bystander and he was
• 49:54
  Speaker 7: attacked for it with deadly force, and he defended himself
• 49:59
  Speaker 7: with deadly and people condemned him for choosing not to
• 50:03
  Speaker 7: be a bystander, even if they didn't lie about what
• 50:06
  Speaker 7: really happened. There were a lot of people that turned
• 50:09
  Speaker 7: around and said, how dare this kid choose not to
• 50:12
  Speaker 7: be a bystander. He's obligating other people to choose not
• 50:15
  Speaker 7: to be a bystander. It was stupid, shame on him.
• 50:17
  Speaker 7: He deserved everything that happened. No, he didn't.
• 50:20
  Speaker 9: And even if they could recognize in that situation that
• 50:24
  Speaker 9: he then had he not acted in the way that
• 50:27
  Speaker 9: he acted, he would have been a victim.
• 50:30
  Speaker 8: They would have likely taken his life.
• 50:33
  Speaker 7: Yep.
• 50:34
  Speaker 8: But no, he's the bad.
• 50:35
  Speaker 9: Guy because he did something to some people. That statement
• 50:40
  Speaker 9: sounded like ilhan Omar, some people did some bad things
• 50:46
  Speaker 9: and not to I don't want to make light of
• 50:48
  Speaker 9: the situation.
• 50:48
  Speaker 7: But he's the bad guy. He defended himself against a
• 50:52
  Speaker 7: would be killer. Exactly. How dared he not die when
• 50:56
  Speaker 7: that person wanted him to die?
• 50:58
  Speaker 8: Exactly?
• 50:59
  Speaker 9: And it's exactly speaking to the thing that you just
• 51:02
  Speaker 9: brought up where everyone wants everyone is conditioned to be
• 51:08
  Speaker 9: the bystander instead of saying, there's something that I actually
• 51:11
  Speaker 9: could have done, because there were plenty of other people
• 51:15
  Speaker 9: in that situation that could have stopped those people where
• 51:20
  Speaker 9: those pedophiles didn't have to get killed.
• 51:23
  Speaker 7: The other thing is that the moment where he got
• 51:27
  Speaker 7: shot at, the thing that he was shot at for,
• 51:30
  Speaker 7: the thing that he was pursued for was preventing fires
• 51:36
  Speaker 7: from spreading to a gas station and helping people who
• 51:39
  Speaker 7: were injured by people who were engaging in violence. That's
• 51:43
  Speaker 7: what they were after him for. That's why they were
• 51:45
  Speaker 7: chasing him down with guns, not because he dialed insults
• 51:49
  Speaker 7: at somebody or through rocks, or did anything nasty to people, or.
• 51:53
  Speaker 8: Even threatened someone else. He didn't do any of that.
• 51:57
  Speaker 7: They thought it was part of a crowd that extinguished
• 51:59
  Speaker 7: a flaming dumpster. Right, Yeah, put out a literal dumpster
• 52:03
  Speaker 7: fire that was being pushed toward it. You know what
• 52:05
  Speaker 7: happens when a gas station catches on fire, right, Because
• 52:08
  Speaker 7: the tank's underneath, the fire can spread to the tanks underneath.
• 52:13
  Speaker 7: If those tanks are not full of liquid gas, they're
• 52:18
  Speaker 7: partially full of gas fumes. Does everybody know how an
• 52:22
  Speaker 7: internal combustion engine works. The explosion inside your internal combustion
• 52:30
  Speaker 7: engine that causes the pistons to move is caused by
• 52:36
  Speaker 7: vapor gas vapor. It is the mixing of gas fumes,
• 52:42
  Speaker 7: basically gas vapor. It's not quite the same exact thing
• 52:46
  Speaker 7: because it's created on purpose an oxygen that creates and
• 52:52
  Speaker 7: the spark that creates that explosion. And that's in a
• 52:55
  Speaker 7: tiny little area. Okay, So if you have a gas
• 52:58
  Speaker 7: tank that is maybe half of fumes, that is a
• 53:03
  Speaker 7: big fucking explosion.
• 53:06
  Speaker 9: It's illegal for you to even smoke a cigarette and
• 53:10
  Speaker 9: you're in the process of pumping gas because what can
• 53:14
  Speaker 9: happen could be devastating, and god forbid, those gas tanks
• 53:20
  Speaker 9: underground are full, like completely full.
• 53:23
  Speaker 8: They're completely full.
• 53:24
  Speaker 7: It's actually less of a threat. Although liquid gas can
• 53:27
  Speaker 7: catch fire and it's very dangerous in and of itself.
• 53:30
  Speaker 7: If a fire is hot enough to get in there
• 53:33
  Speaker 7: and burns through everything that is enclosing that fuel, or
• 53:37
  Speaker 7: it causes a leak, then yeah, that's going to fuel
• 53:40
  Speaker 7: the fire too.
• 53:41
  Speaker 9: Yeah, but that's a cigarette like we're not talking about
• 53:43
  Speaker 9: Oh yeah, yeah, goddamn dumpster on fire, which is exactly
• 53:49
  Speaker 9: what they were trying to do. They were trying to
• 53:51
  Speaker 9: push that dumpster into the gas station, which would have
• 53:56
  Speaker 9: caused a major eruption.
• 53:58
  Speaker 8: It's not all, no, it was just it was a
• 54:01
  Speaker 8: peaceful protest people.
• 54:04
  Speaker 7: Yeah. And by the way, folks, guess what's underneath the road?
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 54:08
  Speaker 7: Natural gas lines under many roads. So if you have
• 54:12
  Speaker 7: an explosion that rips one of those open, and you
• 54:17
  Speaker 7: have a very serious problem. Yeah. Him choosing not to
• 54:21
  Speaker 7: be a bystander. That choice wasn't just made in terms
• 54:24
  Speaker 7: of what am I preventing? Oh a bunch of people protesting,
• 54:27
  Speaker 7: I'm gonna go be I'm gonna go be a hero.
• 54:31
  Speaker 7: I'm sure there was some consideration of this kind of
• 54:36
  Speaker 7: thing can get way out of hand. We've seen previous
• 54:39
  Speaker 7: protests get way out of hand. And he had a
• 54:43
  Speaker 7: close friend that had a business that needed protected and
• 54:48
  Speaker 7: he showed up for his friend. That's not That's not
• 54:52
  Speaker 7: something you would criticize. It's not something wrong.
• 54:55
  Speaker 8: That was a completely selfless act that he did.
• 55:00
  Speaker 7: Meanwhile, if that same guy who is criticized for not
• 55:04
  Speaker 7: being a bystander, was present at a party where some
• 55:11
  Speaker 7: couple got drunk and went upstairs and had sex and
• 55:16
  Speaker 7: the girl later said I was too drunk to consent.
• 55:18
  Speaker 7: I was raped and nobody stopped him from doing it,
• 55:21
  Speaker 7: he would be highly criticized for being just a bystander
• 55:25
  Speaker 7: in that situation. Yep. So when he was not a
• 55:28
  Speaker 7: bystander when a group of people tried to burn down
• 55:31
  Speaker 7: a whole city, that's problem. Yeah, But we should be
• 55:36
  Speaker 7: worried about how people judge mean words girls say online.
• 55:40
  Speaker 7: Boys don't face any judgment of that caliber. Certainly not
• 55:44
  Speaker 7: of that level that we just described.
• 55:49
  Speaker 8: And certainly not in the UK.
• 55:52
  Speaker 7: No, No, you certainly can't say anything about boys in
• 55:55
  Speaker 7: the UK. They would put a stop.
• 55:56
  Speaker 5: To that right away.
• 55:57
  Speaker 7: You can't condemn all boys on the basis of an
• 56:01
  Speaker 7: entirely fictional story. That's not Actually it's false advertising when
• 56:07
  Speaker 7: they say it's based on a true story. There is
• 56:09
  Speaker 7: no true story that runs along the lines of what
• 56:14
  Speaker 7: that story portrays. It would be like if I looked
• 56:20
  Speaker 7: at the Civil War in the United States and decided
• 56:25
  Speaker 7: that I was going to base something on that, but
• 56:29
  Speaker 7: the thing that I was writing was essentially space aliens
• 56:33
  Speaker 7: taking over a planet because the people on that planet
• 56:37
  Speaker 7: were totally evil. And that's not what the Civil War
• 56:40
  Speaker 7: in the United States was about. It had nothing to
• 56:42
  Speaker 7: do with that. It would be a lie for me
• 56:45
  Speaker 7: to say it was based on a true story. So
• 56:51
  Speaker 7: she says, I place the Carter story. The Carter story
• 56:56
  Speaker 7: takes within a long history of news media. So what
• 57:00
  Speaker 7: she's saying is that the responses, the assessments that people
• 57:04
  Speaker 7: made of the story. But because she's got takes in
• 57:07
  Speaker 7: place in the same sentence when I read it, I thought,
• 57:09
  Speaker 7: did she get the Carter story takes place out of order?
• 57:12
  Speaker 7: There within the long history of the news media to
• 57:15
  Speaker 7: demonize teen girls for not enacting proper femininity. So again
• 57:22
  Speaker 7: she's redirecting here, what was Carter criticized for actively telling
• 57:30
  Speaker 7: him to get back in the truck, browbeating him to
• 57:34
  Speaker 7: kill himself. Statement is I place the Carter story takes
• 57:40
  Speaker 7: within a long history of the news media to demonize
• 57:44
  Speaker 7: I think she meant demonizing teen girls for not enacting
• 57:48
  Speaker 7: proper femininity. And what exactly is it?
• 57:52
  Speaker 9: Doesn't proper femininity mean in that we know what she's
• 57:56
  Speaker 9: talking about, right, There's that women have some sort of
• 58:01
  Speaker 9: inherent responsibility to be mindful and careful and life preserving,
• 58:09
  Speaker 9: which we all know is bullshit because today's women they are.
• 58:14
  Speaker 9: And I would also submit that's not inherently feminine, right,
• 58:22
  Speaker 9: like the urge to protect life does not only belong
• 58:27
  Speaker 9: to women. Yeah, now, how is she saying that this
• 58:33
  Speaker 9: is something that this is a feminine urge to No,
• 58:37
  Speaker 9: it's not.
• 58:38
  Speaker 8: No, it's not I get it.
• 58:39
  Speaker 9: Trying to browbeat society and say that it's our fault
• 58:44
  Speaker 9: because we are espousing these ideals upon her, which I
• 58:49
  Speaker 9: would have to push back and say no, because you
• 58:53
  Speaker 9: are the one writing this article. These are your ideas, okay,
• 58:58
  Speaker 9: and there can be nothing else said of the sort.
• 59:03
  Speaker 9: You can't say that I've done a poll and this
• 59:06
  Speaker 9: is what the general population field that didn't happen. No,
• 59:11
  Speaker 9: these are your this is your opinion, This is what
• 59:15
  Speaker 9: you are pronouncing, This is you are putting for.
• 59:19
  Speaker 7: Yeah, it's not that she was being told she was
• 59:23
  Speaker 7: obligated to be his suicide hotline and talk him out
• 59:27
  Speaker 7: of it. She was just obligated to not be his
• 59:33
  Speaker 7: suicide dealer and to not browbeat him into it. That's
• 59:38
  Speaker 7: just in action. Don't be aggressive, and this isn't unique
• 59:44
  Speaker 7: you think about this. I'm gonna channel a little good
• 59:47
  Speaker 7: fella here. When there's a disaster, right, the dam breaks
• 59:52
  Speaker 7: and there's a flood, there's a hurricane, there's a big
• 59:56
  Speaker 7: forest fire, right, or an earthquake, tornado goes through your
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 7: community and eats up all the houses. Who are the
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 7: people who go in and start rescuing people in dangerous situations?
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 7: Who puts out the fires? Who are the people who
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 7: go in as their own little army, the Cajun navy.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 7: Who's on those boats? Because I didn't see any women, Nope,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 7: not a one who dies trying to save other people.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 7: The cop that I read about on a show a
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 7: while back when Texas had its flooding that drowned in
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 7: his police car, not a woman like, who are the
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 7: people who go in and handle the dangerous jobs, the
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 7: dirty jobs, the cold, dismal, scary, and sometimes traumatic job
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 7: of finding the bodies.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 8: Nine point nine out of ten times it's the right.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 7: When the Oklahoma City bombing took place, one of the
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 7: pictures that gave me nightmares was that fireman coming out
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 7: with a dead child in his arms, And I just
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 7: had this mental image that guy's gonna remember that body
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 7: over and above everybody else's for the rest of his
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 7: life that he's had to pull out of a burning building.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 7: He was an innocent kid. That's men. Men do that, yep.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 7: And it's men who rush in when there's gunfire. When
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 7: there was a shooting here in Dayton, in the Oregon District,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 7: in the downtown area where people go to hang out
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 7: and party and have fun, the people who ran toward
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 7: the shooter while bullets were flying, those were men. When
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 7: a building is on fire and there are people inside
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 7: screaming for help, the people who carry them out are men.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 7: Women aren't suited for that, and it's shown by the
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 7: fact that women's standards in those jobs are lower. Yeah,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 7: and those jobs exist because of men. It's men who
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 7: created fire brigades. It's men who created the guards that
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 7: became the eventual police departments in the military. It's men
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 7: who invented the ability to defend the concept of defending
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 7: borders and maintaining peace over large swatches of land. Yeah,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 7: it's men that do the fighting when that peace breaks.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 7: It's men that have died on the points of each
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 7: other's swords to make sure that the women and children
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 7: in their countries can eat and sleep in peace. So
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 7: I don't see this idea that caregiving and nurturing is
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 7: uniquely female. I think that what society thinks is caregiving
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 7: and nurturing is putting a bowl of food in front
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 7: of somebody in a band aid on their knee when
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 7: they scrape it.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 8: But it's the instant gratification, fulfilling a need, right, But
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 8: not when it comes to the darkest moments in human existence,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 8: like when things go really bad. Women do not have
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 8: the capacity to stomach what other humans can do to
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 8: one another.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 9: Because the most gluesome things that you can think of,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 9: it's not women who are responding to those scenarios.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 8: It is the men, and even they do not, like
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 8: a lot of them, find it difficult they get physically
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 8: ill from seeing this.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 9: These are scenarios that will never leave their minds for
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 9: the rest of their lives.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 7: And many of them get injuries that never go away either.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 7: Like the rescuers at Ground zero on nine to eleven.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 7: Regardless of how nine to eleven happened and why it happened,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 7: those guys weren't involved in that. They were involved in
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 7: going in and trying to find anybody that might still
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 7: be alive bodies, and that's what they found. They found bodies.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 7: They found dead bodies.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 7: These are men who were so determined to go in
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 7: and help people at the risk of their own lives,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 7: and knew how much their lives were at risk, to
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 7: the degree that they actually wrote their Social Security numbers
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 7: on themselves so that people would be able to identify
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 7: them if the building they were search and collapsed more
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 7: and they got killed, and some of them did, some
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 7: of them did get injured and killed, Some of them
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 7: got injuries that lasted a lifetime. Some of them suffered
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 7: from injuries that didn't show up right away. They breathed
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 7: in the dust, the cancers that cave and our government
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 7: abandoned Brown nine to eleven and blah blah blah.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 8: Yeah, it's a real physical fuck it. It's it happened.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 7: Yep, it's we are.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 9: All too quick as a society to want to just
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 9: forget about that. But no, those people are they have
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 9: lived with it.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 8: Some of them have not lived. They're gone because of
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 8: the things that they had to deal with.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 7: But it really bugs me about the failure to understand this,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 7: like it's it's not just nurturing to set a bull
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 7: of food in front of people spending even if you
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 7: spend all day cooking it, right, it's not just nurturing.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 7: To give somebody a blanket after men rescue them from
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 7: a flooded building or a burning building. It's nurse nurturing.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 7: But that's not the only thing that is nurturing. Going
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 7: in and getting them out is nurturing holding their hand
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 7: when you can't get them out. The story of the
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 7: girl that was trapped under rubble after the earthquake, where
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 7: she was trapped in water, and the people that were
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 7: there with her and held her hand while she died
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 7: and tried the whole time to get her out. And
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 7: it is honorable to be the person who when the
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 7: traumatized victims come in from their dangerous situations, and the
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 7: traumatized rescuers come in from getting them out of those situations,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 7: gives them blankets and water and food, and listens to
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 7: their stories. It's honorable to be that person, and it's,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 7: in my opinion, highly dishonorable to complain that is expected
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 7: of some people who are not expected to be the
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 7: ones risking their lives to go in and rest. Thank you,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 7: anyone is highly dishonorable to complain that it shouldn't be
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 7: expected of you to call for help when your neighbor's
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 7: house is on fire, or your neighbor just told you
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 7: he's about to kill himself. Just how can anybody say
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 7: that it's an unfair obligation when we obligate men to
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 7: do so much more than that, She goes on and says,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 7: this article asks how various media participate in constructing Michelle
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 7: as responsible for murder, constructing and the effects of that construction,
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 7: and answering that question, I contribute to scholarship that highlights
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 7: adult concern regarding how teen girls use new communication technologies.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 7: I argue that through a process of framing, Michelle is
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 7: lacking compassion and normal feminine caretaking skills. And situating text
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 7: messages as a murder weapon. The media coverage of the
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 7: Carter case contributes to cultural anxiety concerning girls supposed excessive
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 7: connection with communication technologies.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 8: Cultural anxiety.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 7: Yes, cultural anxiety.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 9: So other people who didn't have nothing to fucking do
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 9: with it, they might feel one like a little.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 8: Bit sad and unsure how to deal with the situation.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 9: Boyfriend is threatening to kill himself and you just happened
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 9: to be on your cell phone and saying, oh you haven't.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 9: What cultural anxiety as if this is something that the
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 9: rest of the culture would feel normal doing.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 8: This is what I would do if my boyfriend thought
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 8: that he was gonna kill it?
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: What?
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 4: Yep?
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 8: Why she is trying to make this milk.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 7: Toast and just listen?
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 8: Yeah, no, this is just this is the societal pressure
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 8: of what happens.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 7: Hey, you think about this all right, Let's make one
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 7: other comparison here. Okay, we have heard over and over
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 7: again about how men and boys are expected to physically
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 7: risk the health and safety of their bodies. Yes, being
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 7: non bystanders when a woman is in danger, stepping in
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 7: if another man is doing her harm, stepping in if
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 7: it's rape, stepping in if it's burglary, stepping in, if
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 7: it's robbery, mugging, battery. If there's a domestic abuse situation
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 7: going on, if a man knows about it and he
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 7: does nothing, he's the bad guy. If a boy knows
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 7: about it and he does nothing, not says nothing, but
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 7: does nothing physically, he's the bad guy. Equally culpable, all right,
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 7: And they're portrayed that way in movies, in television shows,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 7: in music. Think about that song weighed in the truck,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 7: that country song that came out a while ago, right
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 7: where the guy just runs across a strange woman in
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 7: the middle of the road, and, upon being not told
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 7: but concluding from her behavior that she's the victim of
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 7: a domestic abuser, he must be willing to go to
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 7: where the man lives and kill him and go to
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 7: jail for it for the rest of his life, because
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 7: it's worth it to just save this woman from the situation.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 7: She didn't even tell you was going on. You just
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 7: got that picture because of her injuries. I'd spending her honor.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 7: That's how stark the demand is on men, right, Yeah,
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 7: And the idea of male power is a physical power
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 7: among our society, like people in our society, we think
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 7: of men as big and strong and tough, physically capable,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 7: and that's the power that we expect him to use
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 7: as a society to protect poor, vulnerable, weak women that
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 7: can't do anything for themselves, and blah blah blah. Women's
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 7: power is social. Yes, yes, And so this is this
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 7: expectation that she is objecting to, is the equivalent of
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 7: a man's power to grab another man's arm and say
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 7: I think twice. It's okay to expect him to do that,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 7: but it's not okay for her to be expected to say, Hey, mom,
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 7: my boyfriend is threatening to commit suicide. I don't know
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 7: what to do. Hey, dad, my boyfriend is threatening to
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 7: commit suicide. I don't know what to do. Go on
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 7: to your parents. They're going to step up and try
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 7: to help you. They're going to want to call the
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 7: police or the kid's parents or somebody that'll help him.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 7: You're not even get in trouble for that. Nobody's gonna
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 7: punch you because you did that. It's totally different. You're
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 7: not gonna get arrested for it.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 8: Not when it's in defense of a woman.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 7: And this brings up no, not when it's because you're
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 7: a woman and you're not engaging in violence. This Guys
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 7: do get arrested, even in defense of a woman, for
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 7: doing something about somebody else's violence. They do get arrested,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 7: They get beaten up for it. They get injured. Sometimes
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 7: they get injured badly enough that injury never goes away.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 7: Just asking someone to help you help someone else takes
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 7: almost no effort and gets you into no trouble. You
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 7: don't get injured for that. At worst, the person that
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 7: you asked for help for might get mad at you.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 7: Girl's power is social, and she's objecting to the idea
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 7: that women should use their power, their personal agency, their
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 7: effect on the world right, their strongest impact on the
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 7: world wisely and compassionately and considerately. What if we had
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 7: that same standard with men and objected that we shouldn't
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 7: be criticizing men when they use their physical strength and
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 7: their superior endurance and coordination to women to commit crimes.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 9: We don't even allow men to defend themselves, which is
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 9: what we're seeing right now with this case in Texas.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 8: It's not enough that.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 9: Men are demonized when using self defense at violence at
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 9: any point, right, whether or not it's in defense of
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 9: another person, of another woman, but especially even now of
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 9: their own person.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 8: It's just not acceptable.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 9: I'll take that back, and I will say that this
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 9: is now what's being questioned, right, like, when is it
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 9: okay for a man.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 8: To even defend himself against another man?
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 7: And how because you have now I'm not going to
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 7: say that this situation that we're talking about was one
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 7: of self defense, because right this was a kid invading
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 7: another team space, who was asked to leave, who refused
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 7: to leave and could have walked away, so he wasn't
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 7: really in any danger, and when he was approached and
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 7: grabbed to try to make him walk away, he resorted
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 7: to deadly violence. That's not justified. But there's more to
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 7: this situation than kids don't get to the age of
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 7: seventeen acting that way without some nobody failing them. Three
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 7: year old might act that way, and it's perfectly natural
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 7: for a three year old to act that way. It's
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 7: perfectly natural for a three year old to respond to
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 7: somebody invading his space by grabbing him and pushing him too,
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 7: But it's not. By the time you're seventeen, you should
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 7: be responding to that in an entirely different way, and
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 7: This is where there's a lot of debate going around
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 7: about this, and I've seen some interesting points, but I'm
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 7: gonna switch to that story because we're done with what
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 7: I wanted to read on this. I don't know that
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 7: I'm going to go through this whole story, but let's
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 7: see if we can find the actual There's a lot.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 9: There's a lot here, and I think where everyone is
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 9: being hung up in is the fact that they're like,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 9: there is there's got to be video right there, right
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 9: there needs to be.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 7: There's got to be. But even if there's not, there's witnesses.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 7: And yeah, I haven't anybody deny the story that has
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 7: been put out there, which is that Carmelo Anthony was
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 7: sitting under another team's tent that the boy he stabbed,
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 7: and I'm gonna Metcalf, Austin Metcalf, Yeah, Austin. Austin Metcalf
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 7: approached him to kick him out from under the tent,
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 7: and when he refused to leave, Austin grabbed him. And
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 7: then he had already had his hand in the bag
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 7: and he pulled out the knife and stabbed Austin. And
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 7: so the first thing I'll say is that Austin did
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 7: not deserve to die from this, and stabbing him was
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 7: an overreaction to being grabbed, and that's a fact. That's
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 7: an undeniable fact. Nobody should be excusing what Carmelo did.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 7: Austin would still be alive if he had walked away
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 7: from Carmelo and gone to a coach and said, hey,
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 7: this kid's bothering us.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 9: And so this is why this whole situation is garnering
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 9: so much attention and discussion surrounding it, right, because now
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 9: you and I have actually discussed these things. If you
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 9: take the knife out of the situation, right, if he
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 9: had just punched him and Austin fell awkwardly and that
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 9: was enough to snap his neck, the situation would still
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 9: be the same.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 8: There's one lost life, right, and now we're.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 9: Left to discuss about what is self defense and was
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 9: it self defense and was it proper because there's nothing
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 9: he wasn't Carmelo was not illegally.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 8: He was breaking no laws.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 9: Even though it might have been improper for it to
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 9: be sitting underneath that tent, there was nothing illegal.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 8: About him being there, and if it was improper, then
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 8: the proper protocol would have been to get an authority. Figure, Hey, Listen,
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 8: he needs to not be here because you don't know he.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 9: And it was raining. Maybe he was just trying to
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 9: get out of the rain. But there's other reports that
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 9: say that that he knew them and he was friends
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 9: with other people on the team.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 7: Maybe he sat down. We don't know.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 8: The only thing we know is that there was a
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 8: confrontation and there.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 9: The I don't want to say the threat, but it
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 9: was stated, put your hands on me and we'll see
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 9: what happens.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 8: Yeah, listen, you wouldn't have to tell me twice. Okay,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 8: I'm not messing with you.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 9: After that, it's just so difficult to actually diagnose post
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 9: mortem because again.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 8: We don't have video.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 9: We have the police report. Now there are reports that
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 9: say Anthony the white kid put his hands on Carmelo.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 7: He did, He grabbed him, He was gonna kick him
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 7: out from underneath a tent. I grew up in a
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 7: violent neighborhood. Not a criminally violent neighborhood where adults were
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 7: breaking into each other's houses and doing shit like that,
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 7: but in a neighborhood where you gotta remember, in the
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 7: nineteen seventies, kids we were allowed to run wild. You
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 7: go out the door, at seven or eight o'clock in
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 7: the morning. In the summertime, you come home for lunch,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 7: and then if your mom's lucky, and then you come
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 7: home for supper. And then you come home when it's
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 7: dark enough out that the mosquitoes are gonna get you, maybe,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 7: But the rest of the time you're out and about
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 7: with other kids, and there may not be an adult
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 7: within eyesight for hours, okay, And we used to. We
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 7: had violent interactions as a means of settling disputes, and
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 7: we even had violent interactions for fun. We had right
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 7: across from the park, in front of one of my
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 7: friend's houses, there was a weeping willow tree, and when
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 7: in the fall, when the little leaves would fall off
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 7: of the long branches, the long whip like branches, we
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 7: would pull those branches off and we would have whip
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 7: fights with those for fun. And you were Prestige came
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 7: from being able to show off a welt that went
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 7: all the way down, spiraled all the way down your leg,
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 7: that you didn't yell when you got that, or all
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 7: the way down your arm. Of course, moms would get mad.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 7: I got in trouble for that, because those injuries can
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 7: get infected yeah, And there are smarter things to do
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 7: for fun, yes, like jumping from the top of the
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 7: monkey bars to the tree next to the monkey bars.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 7: And we did a bunch of dumb stuff when we
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 7: were kids, But one of the things that we learned
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 7: was that it is wiser and more pleasant and an
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 7: interaction leads to confrontation to keep your hands off of
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 7: each other and figure out a way to talk it
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 7: out than it is to do get out or to
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 7: grab and fight. And anytime somebody is showing not just
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 7: a willingness but an inclination to jump from words to violence,
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 7: it's being able to deescalate. That is a skill and
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 7: a show of wisdom. A person who can deescalate that
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 7: has more gravitas in the neighborhood than the other kids do.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 7: And sometimes it takes being better at violence than the
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 7: other kids to have that ability, but a lot of times,
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 7: just being diplomatic it's all it takes. And I learned
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 7: that in the most disgusting of situations. There was an
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 7: actual sandbox at that park, which is never a good
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 7: idea because there are always stray cats. And if stray
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 7: cats see a box of sand, whether it's two feet
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 7: wide or eight feet by eight feet. They're gonna poop
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 7: in it. That's where they go poop. That's where it belongs,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 7: is in that it's easier to bury in there. Right,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 7: I'm in there with water and playing in this with
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 7: my hands, and there's another little girl in there playing
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 7: in it with her hands. And I have this fago
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 7: bottle that I'm going back and forth from. It's not
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 7: really little, but it's not two leaders, right, it's a
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 7: half a leader, and going back and forth between the
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 7: sandbox and the drinking fountain that is a block away
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 7: at the other end of the park to get water
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 7: to make sand castles. And she decided she wanted it,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 7: and I wouldn't give it to her, and so she
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 7: got aggressive tried to take it, and I held it backwards. Now,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 7: this is a girl who is younger than me, and
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 7: she was shorter than me. Most of the girls were
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 7: shorter than me at that point, and so she couldn't
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 7: reach when I held it back away from her because
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 7: my arm was longer than hers. Even if she had
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 7: gone chest to chest with me, she couldn't have reached it.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 7: So she took her hand and she arped it into
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 7: a little fish hook shape, stuck her finger in my
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 7: mouth and slit the inside of my cheek with her
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 7: sharp fingernail. Oh, I spent a lot of years worrying
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 7: about there's an ailment you can contract from cat poop
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 7: that can make your kid go blind. When Yeah, and
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 7: that was a bad one. My mom made me wash
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 7: my mouth out with Bacardi one fifty one and then
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 7: hydrogen peroxide to make sure that the German were killed,
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 7: then water because you can't just leave hydrogen peroxide in
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 7: your mouth. But my teeth were really white for a
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 7: while after that. It's very good that I learned from
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 7: that situation. I couldn't let her use the bottle and
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 7: grabbed another bottle. And it doesn't matter that she was
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 7: being aggressive and she was wrong, I still got injured.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 9: Yeah, and I've heard you say that story, and I
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 9: had no idea that it was that gruesome Gros. We
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 9: tend to forget that we come from a gladiator society.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 9: It was sport for us to maim and injure and
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 9: hurt one another just to see who would come out
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 9: the victor.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 8: We have learned and we've grown and adapted.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: But.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 8: I think that still lives within us to some point.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 7: We learn it growing up. And a part of how
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 7: I learned it was this my mom the wounds from
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 7: the fight and everything, and she talked a little bit
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 7: about why didn't you just share the bottle, But it
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 7: was really my dad that was like, that was stupid.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 7: You think about this, Was it really worth it to
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 7: get into a fight over garbage because that plastic bottle
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 7: was just a bottle that somebody threw on the ground.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 7: People littered in that park all the time, and so
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 7: it wasn't like she was trying to steal the food
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 7: supply for our household. And it wasn't like she was
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 7: trying to set our house on fire or beating up
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 7: on my little brother or who was bigger than me
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 7: at that point too. It wasn't anything like that. It
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 7: was just a piece of trash that I recycled for
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 7: my own use, doing something that was fun for me
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 7: in the moment that really I shouldn't have been doing
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 7: because it was nasty. But yeah, I got into a
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 7: fight over that. And there's another story from my neighborhood
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 7: that I learned that specific day from my dad. There
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 7: was a boy who was much older than me, who
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 7: was part of a family that my family was friends
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 7: with where we're a little bit irish. This family was
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 7: Irish with capital I underlined all bold print. If they
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 7: had anything else in it, it was like one or
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 7: two percent. And so everybody liked them like they were
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 7: just fun people to be around most of the time.
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 7: But one of the boys in the family was extremely
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 7: stereotypical in that he was very prone to fighting. He
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 7: liked getting into fights, and he would fight over anything.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 7: Right is a zebra black with white stripes or white
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 7: with black stripes. It's worth duking it out to decide
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 7: who's right. And he was walking to the park from
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 7: his house one day and one of the houses that
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 7: he was walking past had a little girl on the
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 7: porch who decided she didn't want him using her sidewalk.
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 7: She was wrong, it's not her sidewalk. It was a
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 7: public sidewalk. She picked up a stick and she told him,
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 7: you take one more step, I'm going to throw this stick.
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 7: And he didn't take her seriously. Be in the fight
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 7: and dude that he was. He took a step forward
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 7: as menacingly as he possibly could, and she threw the
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 7: stick and it hit him in the eye.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 5: Put his eye out.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 7: He was blind in that eye for the rest of
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 7: his life. My uncle was principal of a junior high
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 7: at that time, and this kid did not learn from
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 7: that situation that there are some things that are not
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 7: worth fighting over. So every day at school he's in
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 7: the office, got in a fight with somebody else, and
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 7: about two thirds of the time he was in the
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 7: right in the dispute, but it mostly wasn't something that
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 7: anybody should have resorted to violence over. And the thing
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 7: that actually talked him into settling down, my uncle actually
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 7: put him in the utility closet, shut the door and
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 7: turned off the light, asked him what he saw, and
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 7: you're like, I don't see nothing. It's dark in here.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 7: And my uncle says to him, is out you want
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 7: to see for the rest of your life, because it's
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 7: what's going to happen if you lose your other eye
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 7: in a fight. And that settled the kid down. That
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 7: is male caregiving, That is mentoring. That is showing the
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 7: potential consequence of a decision to somebody who is vulnerable
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 7: because of his own attitude. And that's just a childhood attitude.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 7: That's not something that this was not a bad kid.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 7: He was just very stubborn and very oppositional in his stubbornness,
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 7: which is my injury could have affected my child if
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 7: I had gotten toxoplasmosis. I didn't. I was very fortunate
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 7: and my kid was fortunate. Fighting over things that are
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 7: not worth fighting over can have far reaching death of
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 7: a stating consequences in this was an instance where that
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 7: panned out. And it's men usually who teach children at
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 7: a younger age than this to understand that, yeah, because.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 8: They learn first.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 9: When little boys are young and they fight amongst each other,
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 9: no one's really quick to break them up, unless you
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 9: have an extremely oversensitive mother like the father will step
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 9: in and say, listen, this is something that they need
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 9: to learn. And these are vestiges of gladiator type society
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 9: that you know, we just don't have anymore really ingrained
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 9: in wider society.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 8: But they're so necessary. It's so necessary.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 9: It just does us a disservice when we try to
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 9: steer each other away from these conflicts, because they teach
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 9: us about how to deal with each other. And I
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 9: think that's where a lot of women just fall off
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 9: the map when it comes to societal growth.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 8: When are taught to.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 9: Coddle and know you don't want to be this, but
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 9: there has to be a little bit of back and
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 9: forth and give and take to.
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 7: Be an understanding of agency. Your intentions don't affect the
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 7: consequences of your actions. What affects the consequences of your
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 7: actions is the contributing factors in the circumstance and the environment,
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 7: the actions of other people. Your intentions don't mitigate those factors.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 7: And for instance, like the boy and the girl I
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 7: was talking about, where she threw the stick in a
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 7: hit him, she wasn't aiming for his eye. She still
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 7: had to remember for the rest of her life that
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 7: she half blinded another kid because she had a temper tantrum.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 7: That's a consequence. Her father's job was to make her
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 7: understand that it's right for her to feel bad about that,
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 7: and it's right for her to use that bad feeling
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 7: to direct herself to control her anger in future situations.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 9: There's a learning that comes with the consequences of your actions. Right,
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 9: so she may have been fully in the right to
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 9: stand her ground, Obviously it really wasn't because your kids
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 9: and nobody owns the sidewalk or the whatever. She laid
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 9: the groundwork for her expectations, and her expectations were trampled upon.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 9: So she felt this righteous indignation to therefore act upon
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 9: that and say, oh, no, you're not going to get
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 9: away with this.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 8: Because I said no.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 7: I thought she was staying in her ground. She thought
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 7: she was engaging in self defense. She did get punished
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 7: for that, by the way, but not as much as
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 7: he did because he lost an eye. There was no
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 7: amount of punishment that you could do to her legally
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 7: and to losing an eye. But like I said, that guilt,
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 7: on the other hand, while it doesn't equate to losing
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 7: an eye, it does it does provide a very valuable
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 7: tool to her in the future to prevent herself from
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 7: doing that to somebody else. And it should be on
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 7: both parents to teach kids that. But moms are not
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 7: as good about it, and it's it's just a fact.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And.
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 7: The lesson of.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 9: His consequences being worse than hers really is the lesson
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 9: that she should have learned.
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 8: Hopefully she did.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 7: Both of them, the same lesson that I had to
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 7: learn with the Fago bottle incident. Before you get aggressive
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 7: with someone, the first question that you got to ask yourself,
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 7: is this worth fighting over?
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 8: Is this gonna hurt me more than it's gonna hurt you?
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 7: And when you consider whether something's worth fighting over, you
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 7: have to remember that fighting can entail long term, far reaching,
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 7: profound consequences that are completely unintended. Yeah, and this is
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 7: I'm going to switch to the cops statement here. We're
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 7: going to read that. But before we do that, I
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 7: want to point out, once upon a time, kids did
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 7: learn these lessons because rough and tumble play was valued, right, yes,
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 7: and it was recognized that this is just something that
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 7: kids do, and they work out their skills at assessing
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 7: their circumstances, negotiating with each other, figuring it out instead
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 7: of having to run to an authority every time, and
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 7: instead of having to resort to violence. So it used
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 7: to be that we were allowed to get into fights,
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 7: maybe not that kind of fight. A parent sitting on
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 7: that porch would have stopped that girl from throwing that stick,
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 7: for instance, and a parent walking with the boy would
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 7: have said, this isn't worth that. We're going to cross
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 7: the street wing crossed back at the corner. This is
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 7: no big deal. Let her be mad. She can't do
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 7: anything else about us crossing the.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 9: Street, and if the coach of that team had recognized
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 9: that person didn't belong under that tent, maybe he could
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 9: have stepped in and said, hey, listen, you need to
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 9: move on.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 7: Before I was part of the men's rights movement, I
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 7: was on a social media site that was specifically geared
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 7: for artists and writers. It later got taken over by
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 7: another company and it's not a social media site anymore now.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 7: It's basically a stupid tabloid. I used to write posts
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 7: on there that were like blog posts, and I wrote
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 7: about zero tolerance and what it has done to kids'
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 7: ability to understand interpersonal diplomacy. I researched multiple news articles
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 7: and studies and some cases that were published online. The
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 7: actual case file was published online and stuff like that,
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 7: where there were different things that were addressed. Interpersonal violence
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 7: between students, students bringing forbidden items to school, ranging from
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 7: books they weren't old enough to be reading yet, to weapons,
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 7: to drugs. Some were illegal drugs, some were prescription drugs. Right,
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 7: and how zero tolerance affects children with asthma and allergies
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 7: when their emergency medication that they should have on their
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 7: person at all time is taken away from them and
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 7: locked in a nurse's office that has to be unlocked
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 7: with a key only the nurse has, and all kinds
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 7: of stuff. And the thing that I ran into is
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 7: this incident can partly be explained as the deadly effect
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 7: of zero tolerance policies, where these kids, throughout their entire
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 7: school career were never allowed to learn how to negotiate
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 7: conflict with each other. They weren't allowed to deal with
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 7: it by engaging in rough and tumble play. They weren't
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 7: allowed to deal with it by engaging in fistfighting and
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 7: figuring out that it's a dumb way to handle things.
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 7: They didn't have adults explained to them there are other
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 7: ways to deal with this. Here's what you can do
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 7: in these situations. They just got punished. And what zero
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 7: tolerance has done in the last thirty years has been
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 7: teach kids that they cannot trust their mentors. If Susie
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 7: brings diet pills to school and starts selling them to
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 7: the other students, you don't tell a teacher, because not
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 7: only is Susie going to go to jail, but the
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 7: whole school is going to have a series of assemblies
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 7: about this and there will be created new rules that
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 7: you have to obey. All of the students will be
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 7: treated like their suspect. You might be getting your backpack
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 7: searched every time you come into the building, and so on.
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 7: So it's better to just let Susie do what she's doing.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 7: If Joey says he's going to commit suicide, you don't
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 7: try to find his parents and tell them. You don't
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 7: try to tell the teachers. You don't even talk to
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 7: the guidance counselor about it, because if you do, it's
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 7: going to get you attacked by the kids that have
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 7: been bullying him. If you've got somebody stealing your lunch
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 7: money every day before class, don't tell anybody, not even
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 7: your friends, because you'll start a fight and everyone will
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 7: get in trouble. Don't tell the adults because they're not
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 7: going to do anything serious. The bullies will get expelled
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 7: for a couple of weeks, and then they're going to
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 7: be back in your toast. That's how zero tolerance works.
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 7: And in the end, you end up in situations like
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 7: this where these boys, both of them made really stupid
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 7: decisions and then one of them killed the other one,
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 7: and now one is dead, and one is probably going
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 7: to go to jail for the rest of his life
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 7: because they're probably going to try him as an adult
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 7: and they've charged him with murder. One.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I would not like to be his defense attorney.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 7: I wouldn't like to be anybody in this situation.
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 8: No, No, absolutely not.
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 9: And there's so much controversy going on around it, like
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 9: people trying to defend one over the other, and really
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 9: it's just a shit situation for either one of them
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 9: to have been in. And honestly, the way that I
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 9: feel about it is that you've already had one young
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 9: man lose his life, like to not see the other
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 9: one lose his life over it as well. And I'm
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 9: sure people are gonna say, oh, please, blah blah blah blah,
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 9: he's guilty. Okay, just imagine yourself in that situation. And
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 9: I can't imagine that he knew that was going to
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 9: be a fatal blow. Just like as many times as
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 9: we've discussed on this channel here, you can punch someone, yep,
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 9: and that can be the end of their life. They
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 9: were in bleachers in a stadium. If he had just
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 9: pushed him the wrong way, he could have fallen and
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 9: hit his head some way.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 8: There's so many different.
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 9: Scenarios that could have happened in which that one man
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 9: could have young man could have lost his life, and
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 9: the other one would have been guilty. And the main
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 9: thing is that we do not have all of the
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 9: information surrounding what happened before that all transpired, right Like,
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 9: we have some information, but I don't think it's enough
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 9: to make a conclusive decision one way or the other.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 7: Everybody has a right to do process yestely, I would say,
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 7: think of yourself in this situation if I was a
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 7: family member of the kid who died. My thinking on
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 7: the subject, this is one of the reasons why I'm
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 7: against the death penalty too. I would want that kid
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 7: to not be allowed to be the person that he
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 7: was when he thrust that knife into my family member. Ever, again,
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 7: you're not allowed to be that person anymore. You have
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 7: to kill off the person who did that, but you're
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 7: not allowed to die. Your mind that remembers doing that
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 7: and has to contend with having done that has to
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 7: live on and deal with that guilt. The only way
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 7: to achieve that is treatment. The only way to achieve
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 7: that is for this kid who's just barely old enough,
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 7: young enough to still be considered a kid. A year
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 7: the United States government could tell him he has to
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 7: go to war. Ya get a choice to say no, exactly.
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 7: He's old enough and young enough. He's got enough agency
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 7: and enough plasticity for reformation to take place. And the
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 7: reformation means you kill off the violent person that you
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 7: are right now, and you form a new person on
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 7: top of that foundation, on top of the dead person
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 7: that you were, and you be that person, that better person,
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 7: for the rest of your life. And it's your responsibility
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 7: now because you did something so bad that other person
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 7: that you were deserves to die for it. That's what
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 7: I if I could control, what would happen to the
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 7: nurses that worked with my mom when she was in
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 7: the hospital and she got COVID and she died and
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 7: they were abusive. That's what I would say to them.
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 7: The person that you were when you did that has
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 7: to die. You have to remember doing that and remember
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 7: the person who did that, and you have to make
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 7: yourself a better person, and you have to focus on
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 7: that for the rest of your life, being a better person.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 7: You owe my whole family that because you took my
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 7: mom away from me, you took my mom away from us,
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 7: And that's how I feel about it. I don't like
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 7: the idea of punishment just being for the sake of punishment.
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 7: You don't pay off a debt by suffering. You pay
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 7: off a debt by providing value. And I think that
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 7: a crime debt, a violence debt, a wrongdoing debt is
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 7: the same way you do something wrong, you must pay
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 7: off that debt, provide the value of doing better and
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 7: making it your obligation to do better, to police yourself,
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 7: to learn better, to never go back to being that
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 7: person with that attitude. And it takes humility to do that,
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 7: and I've seen people do it. I know people who
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 7: have committed violent crimes and done terrible things in their
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 7: lives who have regretted their actions and because of what
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 7: they did, and because of what they regret as a
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 7: consequence of what they did, change their whole life around
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 7: and done everything they could to give back as an
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 7: individual in their community, to be a positive force within
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 7: their community.
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 5: But our.
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 7: Criminal justice system, which I prefer to call a criminal
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 7: injustice system, does not lend itself to that. No, and
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 7: I think that needs to change.
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 9: We don't was much as we like to say that
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 9: the system is rehabilitating. They don't rehab anyone.
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 7: It's not very rehabilitative.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 9: No, it's something that you have to dig deep within
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 9: yourself and determine that this is what it is that
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 9: you would like to do. And that's not I don't
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 9: think that is a very common thing. Like these people
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 9: who determine that have really understood where they went wrong.
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 8: Yeah, And we just live in a society where it's
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 8: how many times I gonna say society we just.
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 9: Scapegoat, just like that author did for what was her name,
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 9: the one that the woman we were just talking about, Carter, Yeah, exactly.
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 8: It's just like that.
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 9: And I think we are more full of people who
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 9: will give leeway to people who have actually done wrong
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 9: and have not tried to rehabilitate themselves in.
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 8: Any way, or don't up to the things that they've
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 8: done wrong. We are more.
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 9: In a place where we just want to allow people
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 9: to claim that they deserve forgiveness than actually going through
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 9: the performative steps of doing it.
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 7: You've sat in the room behind bars, in an environment
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 7: that mexes with your mind for this long. You're okay,
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 7: get out?
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 8: Yeah, so really sorry? That I've had to waste my
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 8: life away behind these bars.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 7: I'm really sorry.
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 8: I'm really I'm sorry. I just don't want to do
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 8: this anymore.
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 9: Rather than no, I understand why, what, my how, my
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 9: decisions were wrong?
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 7: So well, yeah, I have a lot of respect for
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 7: them that go into prison systems as representatives of a
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 7: higher power. And it's not just Christian ministers that do this.
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 7: Rabbis do this, Pagan priests do this. Different people will
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 7: go in and it's the idea of using conversation and
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 7: basically verbal mentorship, where you're providing group therapy, you're discussing
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 7: one on one with people, you're offering advice, you're offering comfort,
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 7: and somebody wants to talk about their guilt. With regard
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 7: to some I mean that they did and the consequences
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 7: that it affected somebody else, like the drunk driver who
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 7: just wanted to go home but unintentionally killed someone because
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 7: he lost control of the car. Drunk driving was a
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 7: stupid decision, but it doesn't mean that he intended for
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 7: that other person to die, and for the rest of
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 7: his life he's guilty over it, and however long he's
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 7: in jail. It helps to have a minister or rabbi
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 7: or whoever he connects with to talk about that. But
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 7: a lot of times those guys will go in and
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 7: they'll talk to these guys that have done things that
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 7: have had profound, horrific consequences in somebody else's life and
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 7: help them process the guilt and help them attach that
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 7: process to a moral code. And a moral code is
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 7: usually based on a combination of a code of ethics
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 7: and a set of religious dogma. And for what it's worth,
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 7: whether one agrees individually with this religious dogma or not,
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 7: every religious dogma does have a moral code. And helping
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 7: somebody humble themselves to a higher power and evaluate their attitudes,
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 7: not just their actions, but the attitude behind the actions
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 7: on the basis of that moral code and the dogma
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 7: of a religion, that can actually be more rehabilitative than
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 7: anything as psychiatrist can do. So it doesn't mean that
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 7: every individual who goes into a prison system to evangelize
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 7: or recruit into a religion is good and does good things,
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 7: but the intention of those programs that allow that is
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 7: definitely helpful. Yeah, and I think in a lot of
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 7: cases it can make a huge difference in people's lives.
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 7: And there are people that I know that have done
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 7: things that have had just profoundly awful consequences for someone
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 7: else that have been through that process that I've learned from.
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 7: You know, these individuals because of the changes they've had
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 7: to make in their personality. And it's one of the
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 7: reasons why I think of it as a death in reverse,
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 7: because you really literally have to kill off part of
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 7: your ego to stop being a violent person, and especially
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 7: to stop being an oppositionally violent person. It's very hard
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 7: if that's your nature. It's very hard to humble that,
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 7: and it's very hard to live with that still intact
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 7: and not act on it in stupid ways on a
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 7: regular bay. And when women do it, we get ourselves
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 7: into stupid situations. We get ourselves into minor trouble. Occasionally
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 7: women get themselves into really big trouble for it. But
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 7: the same actions that get excused or lead to just
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 7: minor trouble when a woman does them under that circumstance,
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 7: when a boy or a man does them, they end
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 7: up in deep shit or dead. YEP. So the thing
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 7: that I wanted to read here, we'll go over this
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 7: at least start it today and I may. If we
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 7: finish it by nine thirty, we'll be done with it.
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 7: But if we don't finish it by nine thirty, I'll
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 7: finish it next week. And next week we also have
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 7: an article that's basically an update on something else we
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 7: talked about before. There it is okay. I just went
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 7: to We got a ten dollars rumble rant that I
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 7: haven't read yet. See that's pronounced I'm sure differently than
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 7: I'm going to but it looks like it's Prolepsis gave
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 7: us ten dollars and said people should prefer freedom of
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 7: speech over freedom of touch. I've had people grab me
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 7: in in an effort to control my person and claim
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 7: horse play. Later, kindergarten rules dictate keep your hands to yourself. Yeah,
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 7: you don't have the right to touch people without their consent.
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 7: At the same time, and what zero tolerance actually dictated
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 7: to schools is that if you had I don't know,
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 7: Billy and George get in a fight and you get
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 7: down to the facts, and you find out that George
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 7: was friends with somebody Billy didn't like, and that person's
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 7: not around. So Billy decided to go punch George and
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 7: backed George and into a corner and kept hitting him
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 7: until George finally hit back. In my day in school,
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 7: George would have been sent back to class and the
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 7: principal would have given Billy a talk to, talking to.
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 7: Maybe he would have paddled him, depending on how early
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 7: in my school career, because I died off by the
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 7: time I hit junior high, they started you can't paddle
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 7: kids in school anymore. But he would have definitely been
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 7: lectured on the situation. He would have had a whole
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 7: discussion about why it's ridiculously stupid to attack George if
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 7: the person he's angry at is somebody else that isn't
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 7: even there, And he probably would have had some sort
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 7: of punishment, and he would have been told he had
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 7: to apologize to George. And then the other thing is
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 7: if in the process, let's say he broke George's glasses,
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 7: George's parents would have gone to his parents and they
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 7: would have paid for George's glasses. There wouldn't even they
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 7: wouldn't even have had to sue for that. There would
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 7: have been no small claims court case. There would have
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 7: just been Billy punched George in the eye and broke
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 7: his glasses. Oh gosh, we're so embarrassed. How much are
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 7: the glasses? At least we can pay for the glasses.
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 7: And then Billy would have got punished at home too.
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 7: Today the school would punish both Billy and George. And
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 7: when George's parents came to the school and said, you
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 7: let our kid get beaten up, get attacked and beaten up,
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 7: and you didn't supervise well enough to stop that from happening,
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 7: and now you are punishing him from being the victim
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 7: for being the victim, they would have been told he
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 7: shouldn't have hit back. But if he didn't hit back,
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 7: they would have been told, we always punish both kids
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 7: in a fight, and that's zero tolerance. That is the stupid,
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 7: idiotic nature of zero tolerance. They would punish the perpetrator
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 7: and the victim of a rule breaking that were they
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 7: adults and it happened in a bar, would have been
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 7: a crime committed by one of them against the other
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 7: who would have been a victim of the crime. Maybe
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 7: you can endure a punishment so that George also gets
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 7: punished and you get to beat him up.
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 8: Yeah, and what do you learn about that?
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 7: As George? And you basically learn that you might as well,
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 7: you'll beat the shit out of Billy if he hits you,
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 7: because you're gonna get punished just the same. Yep, Like
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 7: you don't learn anything good from that, and you don't
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 7: you learn to not tell the adults if you're in
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 7: a fight because you're going to get punished. Reconsider this incident.
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 7: Where were these boys coming from? Did they have zero
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 7: tolerance policies in their school? And when they went to
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 7: elementary school? Were they in an environment where if they
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 7: had gotten into a fight that didn't end in anybody's death,
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 7: and one of them knocked the other one around and
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 7: the other one didn't do anything about it, would they
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 7: both have been punished? Because if that's the environment that
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 7: they were coming out of, it's no wonder they fought
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 7: like this. John Doe hit a nail on the head
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 7: here too. He says, I wonder how much does zero
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 7: tolerance contribute to school shootings? And from what I found
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 7: among the various news stories and stuff about violent incidents
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 7: in general in school where there have been incidents where
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 7: kids have engaged in shootings, There been incidents where kids
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 7: have tried to poison other kids. There been incidents of
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 7: stabbings of gang violence where it's eight or nine people
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 7: on one. In all of those situations, there were incidents
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 7: where students knew ahead of time that the violence was
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 7: going to happen, and they did not talk to an
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 7: adult because they were afraid of the consequences of talking
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 7: to the adult more than they were afraid of the
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 7: consequences of the other kid violence. So that should tell you.
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 7: That should answer your question. Right. There every situation where
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 7: a kid could have maybe stopped the violence from happening
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 7: by going to an adult. In every single one of
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 7: those situations, zero tolerance was a causative factor, right because
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 7: it directly contributed to thwarting any efforts at prevention. So
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 7: in the news article before a let me see if
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 7: I can find where it says okay. Frisco Police Chief
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 7: David Chilson called the incident a senseless act of violence
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 7: in a lengthy statement last week, while offering his deepest
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 7: condolences to all of the families involved, which I liked
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 7: that he said that, especially the metcalf family. When I
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 7: was in school, if we had lost a teammate to
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 7: an act of violence, their family would have obviously been devastated.
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 7: But the rest of us and our families would have
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 7: been sad too. Our teammates we went to each other's
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 7: houses for snacks and dinner and hanging out and stuff
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 7: like that. At different times, our parents all sat together
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 7: in the stands and rooted for us. It would have
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 7: been devastating to all of the parents to lose any
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 7: of the kids and to see any of the other
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 7: parents go through that loss. We had a teammate on
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 7: my track team that made a dumb choice and ended
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 7: up in juvie for most of his high school career.
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 7: It involved the weapon, and it was just a momentary,
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 7: stupid impulse. He didn't actually attempt to injure anybody with it.
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 7: He was just attempting to scare somebody with it. But
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 7: he committed an illegal act and it resulted in being incarcerated.
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 7: This wasn't some dumb ass from the deadbeat home room
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 7: that all the kids get the bad grades because they
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 7: don't do their homework and they act out all the time.
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 7: This is a kid that was taking calculus and physics
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 7: and preparing to go to college, highly intelligent, just made
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 7: a dumb choice because he was a kid, thought it
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 7: would be funny didn't consider that the other person didn't
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 7: think the same way about it, and was obligated to
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 7: call the police because she was at work. And I
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 7: just I can remember my parents were teachers, so they
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 7: had probably a bigger and emotional investment in all of
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 7: the students than say the parents of their peers who
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 7: were not teachers, because they had personally had those kids
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 7: in class and they had helped to mentor them in everything.
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 7: But even my friend's parents were all sad like this.
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 7: It was just senseless and stupid, and that was just
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 7: over a record that was going to disappear, like when
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 7: he turned twenty one, that would drop off. Nobody got injured.
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 7: It was embarrassing for him and his family, and some
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 7: people were mean to her about it, really mean actually,
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 7: even though she didn't do anything wrong, the whole situation
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 7: affected every family that knew those kids. So it was
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 7: neat to hear him say all the families involved, because
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 7: there's the two families that were directly related to the
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 7: involved kids, and then there's the families that were part
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 7: of their social circle who loved them. So his statement
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 7: is as follows. This week, our Frisco community suffered the
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 7: devast loss of one of our young residents because of
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 7: a senseless act of violence on behalf of the Frisco
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 7: Police Department. I want to offer our deepest condolences to
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 7: all of the families involved, especially the Metcalf family. Keeping
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 7: our great city safe requires an incredible partnership with those
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 7: who live and work here, as well as community stakeholders. Therefore,
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 7: I ask everyone to be cautious of the inaccurate information
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 7: that is circulating related to this incident, and to only
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 7: trust information that comes from official releases and verified sources.
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 7: Beware of those taking to social media to deliberately spread misinformation, hate,
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 7: fear and division. Yesterday evening, a fictitious account was created
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 7: using my name perpetuating misinformation. This is a criminal offense
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 7: and a third degree felony, which will be investigated. I
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 7: couldn't take anything after I read that. Couldn't take anything
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 7: that I saw on social media as gospel, because when
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 7: you think about it, I could create an account with
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 7: his name on it and say anything I wanted, And
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 7: if I didn't tell people that I was a parody account,
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 7: people might believe it, Like why wouldn't they? As part
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 7: of this partnership in keeping our community and our school safe.
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 7: I ask this of our students and our parents. As parents,
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 7: we must remind our sons and daughters that the choices
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 7: and decisions they make today can lead to severe consequences
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 7: for the rest of their lives. Violence cannot be the
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 7: go to means that our young people use as their
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 7: only way to resolve disputes. We must have conversations about
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 7: what guides their decisions and motivations. Our students must consider
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 7: their futures in everything, in every choice they make, in
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 7: every word and image they post, and every person they
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 7: are friends with. And I would like people to note here, right,
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 7: he's taught talking about this in terms of actions, not individuals,
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 7: So when he's talking about violence cannot be the go
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 7: to means that our young people uses their only way
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 7: to resolve disputes. Everybody's going to be heated about this discussion.
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 7: It hurts to hear about a seventeen year old getting killed.
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 7: It's just heartbreaking to think about somebody's life ending at
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 7: that point, and that heartbreak and outrage can cloud your judgment.
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 7: And nobody wants to speak ill of the dead. Nobody
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 7: wants to speak ill of a crime victim. And it
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 7: was a crime to stab him and kill him, and
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 7: so nobody wants to consider what actions could he have
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 7: done differently that would have change the trajectory of that interaction.
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 7: But it's something that if you love your children, you
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 7: really and truly love your children, sons and daughters when
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 7: you talk to them about violence and conflict and how
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 7: to handle disagreement and other people's aggression, because being in
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 7: a place that is not dedicated to you, being unwanted
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 7: and insisting on being there against the will of the
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 7: people who's space it is an act of aggression, even
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 7: if it's not violent, it doesn't necessarily justify getting into
• 2:03:41
  Speaker 7: a violent conflict. And if you love your kids, you
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 7: teach them that just because somebody is aggressive in a
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 7: nonviolent way that upsets you doesn't mean that you should
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 7: use violence to put an end to it. And if
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 7: you are going to use violence to put an into it,
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 7: it's better to use the proxy violence of an authority
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 7: than it is to use your own violence and be
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 7: wrong or be harmed for being And I would say
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 7: this to any group of people that feels invaded, like
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 7: I have actually said this to women who are objecting
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 7: to trans women in their bathrooms, and I've said this
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 7: to trans women who are objecting to being kept out
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 7: of women's bathrooms. I think this is the best way
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 7: to handle this kind of situation is through debate and
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 7: through dealing with it in an authoritative manner. The business
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 7: that owns the bathrooms has the right to make their rules,
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 7: and you follow those rules. The group that owns that
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 7: space has the right to make the rules about that space,
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 7: and you follow those rules. And when you think somebody's
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 7: breaking a rule, you don't start a fight with them.
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 2: You go to the.
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 7: Individual who enforces the rules of that space. Violence only
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 7: creates results like this story, big or small. But he
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 7: goes on. He says, I'd to express my thanks to
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 7: those members from Frisco PD, Frisco FD, and Frisco ISD.
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 7: So that would probably be like all of the different
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 7: first responders, the fire department, the police department, and the
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 7: EMTs that probably showed up as quickly as they could
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 7: under that circumstance, who responded quickly to this horrific and
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 7: chaotic scene. I'm also thankful to the school resource officer
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 7: who quickly took the suspect into custody, And I'd like
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 7: to thank that many students who have offered statements and
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 7: provided useful information related to this investigation. I encourage anyone
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 7: who has further information to polease come forward, which means
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 7: he's doing everything he can to get to the bottom
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 7: of this and not just taking a side many up with.
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 7: Based on my twenty three years of serving Frisco, I
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 7: am confident in this city's ability to respond to this
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 7: tragedy with compassion and empathy. Together, we must all demonstrate
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 7: mutual respect for one another. The Metcalf family has made
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 7: clear through their statements during this very difficult week that
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 7: they will lean on their faith to guide them. I
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 7: encourage our community to do the same. I ask that
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 7: you lift up the Metcalf family in prayer and pray
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 7: for all the families that have been impacted by this
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 7: senseless act of violence. So you see, at no point
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 7: is he demonizing anybody, At no point is he making
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 7: any statements as to guilt or innocence. What he's talking
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 7: about is healing the community and helping future young people
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 7: in the community better understand how to respond to conflicts
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 7: like this without violence. Richard beierreusks at Hannah wal and
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 7: I wonder what would have happened if he was invited
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 7: to pray with the other team, would have been an
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 7: interesting question. Maybe things would have been entirely different. Maybe
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 7: he would have said yes, maybe he would have said no.
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 7: Maybe he would have been uncomfortable and left. But I
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 7: doubt the outcome would have been him stabbing somebody. If
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 7: somebody had sat down next to him and said, hey, man,
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 7: are you okay, that probably wouldn't have resulted in stabbing.
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 7: If I was at a cross country meet and a
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 7: player from another team sat down under our canopy, that's
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 7: the first thing that we would have responded with. Because
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 7: people get really out of breast, they get cramps, they
• 2:07:43
  Speaker 7: get tired, they don't feel good. It's a kind of
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 7: a brutal sport. Really, it's very quietly brutal to the
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 7: athletes individually, without a whole lot of fanfare to tell
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 7: people what they're going through. And then entirely different way too.
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 7: Then football is brutal because football they have concussions, broken bones, bruises,
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 7: huge amounts of pain and suffering. It takes place there.
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 7: But with running that's really tough, actually on your whole
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 7: body in a whole different set of ways, and a
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 7: lot of circulatory issues. I had a teammate that had
• 2:08:20
  Speaker 7: a heart condition. I had an asthma attack every race,
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 7: and my team especially, we had enough handicaps on the team.
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 7: If somebody had sat down under our tent, we'd have
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 7: been like, hey, man, are you okay? You need us
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 7: to get somebody to help you. That's check and see
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 7: if they're breathing okay, and then probably would ended up
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 7: in a conversation about the event. Very little we had
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 7: conflict one time. We gotta remember, this is like just
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 7: before the nineties, and we had a girl on our
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 7: team who was half black and half Indian, like India Indian.
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 7: If I understand correctly her family hair, she might have
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 7: been half black, at quarter Indian, a quarter white. But
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 7: there were some girls from one school that particular community
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 7: was living like it was nineteen fifty in a lot
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 7: of ways, or longer ago than that, because my dad
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 7: said it wasn't even that bad everywhere else in nineteen fifty.
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 7: It was just that community, and he never really understood
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 7: why he lived there for a while he knew, but
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 7: in any case, they were using racial slurs and being
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 7: dumbasses and everything, and some of the rest of us
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 7: on the team were really pissed off because they were
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 7: messing with our friend and they were treating her like
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 7: she was less for reasons that had nothing to do
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 7: with the kind of person that she was. And we
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 7: were winding to mouth off back to him and get
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 7: into a conflict, and she was like, Nope, we're gonna
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 7: walk away, and then we're all going to run as
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 7: hard and as fast as we can. We're gonna beat
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 7: him on the course. And we did. We put everything
• 2:10:04
  Speaker 7: we had into that race. There was to be no
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 7: no fuck you's, no nothing, shake hands if they came
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 7: up to us, and believe it or not, afterward they
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 7: showed some respect because she came in second, right behind
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 7: our first place runner. She beat all of them, every
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 7: single one of their team. She ran faster, and that
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 7: was worth more than anything we could have said to them.
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 7: That's the kind of lessons you learn growing up in
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 7: a rough and tumble environment. You figure out your victories.
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 7: Which victory you want? You want the victory where you
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 7: knock someone on their button you hate each other for years,
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 7: or do you want the victory where you show somebody
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 7: that their first impression, that their prejudice against you is stupid,
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 7: and you earn their speed because I think that's a
• 2:11:02
  Speaker 7: bigger victory. But in this situation, that victory never got
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 7: a chance because both of the boys, they just went
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 7: straight for violence and one of them got killed and
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 7: the other one's guilty of murder. Now if he did
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 7: what it looks like he did, and he's probably screwed,
• 2:11:22
  Speaker 7: unless there's some information that hasn't come out yet that
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 7: changes the entire story. Maybe where he was grabbed. There's
• 2:11:31
  Speaker 7: a huge difference, for instance, between getting grabbed by the
• 2:11:35
  Speaker 7: arm versus getting grabbed by the throat, things like that.
• 2:11:39
  Speaker 7: But it's just an awful situation. And I really think
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 7: that the chief there made the best statement he possibly
• 2:11:51
  Speaker 7: could have made in that circumstance, and I hope that
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 7: the adults in that community take his advice. And I
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 7: don't see any super chows. I don't think no superchows,
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 7: no superchats that I saw. If I missed any superchats,
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 7: I am terribly sorry. My tab with the super Chats
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 7: and my tab with the rumble rants both just died
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 7: in the moment. I'm reading those on a different computer
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 7: than the computer I'm using to stream, and I'm gonna
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 7: have to replace it sometimes soon because it's old. It's
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 7: so old that I can't update from system eight. Yeah,
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 7: we've got the chat talking about the trans athletes dominating
• 2:12:46
  Speaker 7: female sports. It is true that especially in sports where strength,
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 7: physical strength, or physical endurance make the difference in who's
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 7: gonna win, trans athletes are gonna dominate just the way
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 7: it is. Over the next fifty years or so, a
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 7: couple generations of girls might catch up with trans athletes.
• 2:13:08
  Speaker 7: I don't think that it's going to happen in this generation.
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 7: Unless you have the girls practicing with the boys all
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 7: the time, they're not going to even get close. So
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 7: with that, though, Lauren, did you have anything else you
• 2:13:22
  Speaker 7: wanted to add? One is muted, so I guess with that.
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 7: I will thank Lauren for going through This was a
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 7: tough issue to talk about because it looks like there's
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 7: an obvious right and wrong here, and it's hard to
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 7: not condemn because that was an extreme act of violence
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 7: and a really awful way to handle this situation. But
• 2:13:50
  Speaker 7: I think, like the officer said, we should wait for
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 7: the rest of the information to come out before making
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 7: any decisions. Thanks everybody for listening to this and thank
• 2:14:00
  Speaker 7: thanks to everybody who works in the background to make
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 7: HBr talk happen. Good n I to all.
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 1: Us, usa, usa usa usa us