Latest / Core Memory / Spaceplanes Are Upon Us - EP 24 Stefan Powell

Transcript

Spaceplanes Are Upon Us - EP 24 Stefan Powell · Core Memory

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: What is the Paris air show like?
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: I've always wanted to go.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really good.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of like a,
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: definitely a bit of a mashup between space and,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: aircraft industry.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: pretty exciting to just see like super high performance aircraft,
• 0:15
  like F-35s and Raphaels and like all these jets just doing
• 0:18
  crazy shit in front of
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: people.
• 0:20
  So they,
• 0:20
  they just do,
• 0:22
  it's part air show in the middle,
• 0:23
  like they're flying stuff around.
• 0:25
  And then I guess there's probably a lot of people selling
• 0:27
  things and it's like a
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: trade show too,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: isn't it?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or it's just an air show.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no, it's totally a trade show.
• 0:32
  Like there's thousands of like actual industry people there and
• 0:36
  just about everyone
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: from industry attends.
• 0:39
  But then it's also like you're definitely an air show,
• 0:42
  like kids show up as well.
• 0:43
  Like the last three days of it is kind of like the industry
• 0:46
  stuff winds down and
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: the kids show up.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: But the whole time,
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: like literally through every day of the show,
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: like F-35s are flying,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: A350s are flying,
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: like everyone's just doing the craziest shit,
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: like helicopters doing loops.
• 1:01
  Like you're literally in a meeting with some people and the
• 1:04
  F-35s flying over here
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: and the whole table's just shaking and you're like,
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: I can't hear anymore.
• 1:09
  You kind of have to like postpone your meeting for five minutes
• 1:11
  while that happens.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: I would like to see that one day.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: And they do it.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Toulouse is kind of the aviation capital of France, isn't it?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, totally.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's where all the aircraft manufacturing and stuff is.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like Airbus is centered there and tons of the space industry is there.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: But Paris, for whatever reason, is like where the actual air show is.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably easier.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to do a proper intro now.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, cool.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Stefan Powell, thank you for joining us.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: You are the co-founder and CEO and I think also CTO of Don Aerospace.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: There's many, many titles.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, way too many, way too many ads, that's for sure.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: If you guys are based in New Zealand, we're going to talk all about that.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: I've been following the company for a few years now.
• 2:13
  You make,
• 2:14
  I'll just do it quickly and then we'll get into it,
• 2:16
  but you make propulsion projects.
• 2:18
  systems for satellites and then you also make this very cool
• 2:21
  space plane it's it's
• 2:23
  totally unique there's nothing else like it we're going to talk
• 2:26
  all about it i
• 2:27
  think we're going to get to show a mock-up of it as well and
• 2:31
  and i you know you and
• 2:33
  i've known each other for a bit i wanted a chance to talk about
• 2:35
  you aerospace in
• 2:38
  new zealand and then and what you guys what you guys are doing
• 2:41
  so thank you for
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: trekking to the studio
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, we can do all of that and lots more.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, fantastic.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: And as always, this episode is brought to you by E1 Ventures.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: No cap table is complete without E1 Ventures.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Very kind people who helped make this podcast go.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: All right, here we go.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Let's jump in.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do the newsy bit.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, let's not.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Let's set up.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do a little background first.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: As I mentioned, you hail from New Zealand.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Were you born in New Zealand?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, born in Wellington.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: And your parents are Kiwis?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're both born in New Zealand, although my mom's from Dutch.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Her parents immigrated from Europe in the 50s.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and it's entirely possible that I...
• 3:31
  think i may have badgered you when i was working on my book
• 3:35
  about rocket lab as i
• 3:36
  hunted through linkedin for anyone who had worked at rocket lab
• 3:40
  and you did you did
• 3:41
  like a six month internship yeah yeah exactly i did an
• 3:45
  internship there while i was
• 3:46
  doing my master's at two delft so it was like doing an
• 3:50
  internship like a internship
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: abroad at home yeah okay yeah okay and and
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: What stage was Rocket Lab at when you did that?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: That was pre-calling it Electron.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Back then it was called Orbital.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: So this is pretty early.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is 2013, I think.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think there was like 20-ish people at the company.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty damn early, like before we had fired the Rutherford at all.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: To set the stage for people who don't know, I mean, Rocket Lab...
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: is really,
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: when it comes to rockets,
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: is the second most successful commercial space player after SpaceX.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think I just saw them.
• 4:28
  I can't even keep up with how many times they've flown now
• 4:30
  because they just flew
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: two in a row in the last couple of weeks.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think they're up to about 60, 64, 65 launches.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: Something like that.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: They did like four this month.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Which is pretty wild.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: So they're starting to like hit this kind of SpaceX ish type cadence,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: but the bigger story is,
• 4:49
  is just like really no aerospace industry of significance in
• 4:53
  New Zealand until
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: this,
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: this company comes around and.
• 4:58
  And so what was it like in the early days of working at Rocket
• 5:02
  Lab and this maniac
• 5:05
  Peter Beck telling everyone you're going to fire a rocket off
• 5:08
  from the North
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: Island?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was meant to be the South Island.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think at that point it was pretty undefined.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: It was like somewhere.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: We'll figure it out.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry about it.
• 5:18
  um yeah i mean i'm not sure i'd call him a maniac and but uh he
• 5:22
  he definitely um he
• 5:24
  knew what he wanted and he knew how to get it that's for sure
• 5:27
  like never seen
• 5:28
  anyone with that sort of dedication and and conviction and what
• 5:31
  they believed in
• 5:32
  and um just the way that he inspired people to work was pretty
• 5:35
  pretty awesome and
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: and like
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've probably studied it more than anyone else.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you see the results.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's just hard to argue with that level of execution, right?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, very driven.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: But even, I mean...
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Unlikely odds.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Totally, totally.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: But like I do remember having some,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: like I was working on the Rutherford test stand at that time.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was out at Auckland Airport.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So like pretty boring stuff,
• 6:04
  really like drilling holes in concrete and putting in like one
• 6:07
  inch stainless
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: tubing and then setting up like all the rigs to Mount Rutherford.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we did eventually get to firing it.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I was involved in about the first dozen or so firings.
• 6:19
  But we had like NASA folks come by and you could see it in the
• 6:23
  eyes of like,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: holy crap,
• 6:24
  like this is happening and this is happening in a completely
• 6:26
  unexpected part of the
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: world.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they were just so,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: they got that like twinkle in their eyes sort of thing of like,
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: this is this is happening here.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: They just didn't expect it.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: and I wrote about this in the book,
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: and so this will be old news to anyone who's read that,
• 6:44
  but that was what I heard all the time was there were so many
• 6:49
  rocket startups,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: and then everyone kept saying,
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: but this guy,
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Peter Beck,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: he's more real than the other ones,
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: and I was so skeptical.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think the first time I went out was 2016 or 2016, and just...
• 7:03
  I think I'd been burned a few times by rocket startups with
• 7:07
  their website and then
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: you go visit them and there's nothing.
• 7:13
  The idea that this guy who didn't go to college in New Zealand
• 7:17
  was doing it seemed
• 7:18
  pretty far-fetched to me and then I got there and he was 100%
• 7:23
  very much doing it
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: was ahead of everybody else I'd been looking at in the States.
• 7:28
  Yeah,
• 7:28
  but I feel like aerospace is starting to get used to these
• 7:31
  underdog stories now.
• 7:32
  It's almost becoming like if the company hasn't had some real
• 7:36
  harsh forcing
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: function that's made them make tough decisions early on,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: then they're actually more likely to fail,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: even if they had 10 times the resource.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like hardship is a prerequisite for success in aerospace.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm so curious about that because I was following Rocket Lab,
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: I was following similar companies in the US who had SpaceX veterans.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: They...
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: had access to all this history,
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: all the industry,
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: by all rights,
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: should have outpaced Rocket Lab.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then Rocket Lab was full of Kiwis and Aussies,
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: all in their 20s,
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: who had never launched a rocket before.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: Peter, you know, had been making dishwashers before starting Rocket Lab.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've always wondered, maybe you're right.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it is that, like, because SpaceX had that.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: They almost failed too, right?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: They almost failed and they had that,
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: even though people think Elon was rich,
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: they had the desperation that- He wasn't back then.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: He was not that rich.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: They had to fly,
• 8:37
  which is why I always think they've gone faster than Blue
• 8:40
  Origin because Blue
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Origin had Daddy Warbucks.
• 8:44
  By the time Jeff started that company,
• 8:46
  he was already one of the richest people in the world.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas Elon was rich, but he was not like space rich by any-
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And like aerospace is a great way to sink hundreds of millions,
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: if not billions of dollars and get nowhere.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Disaster.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't know what you're doing.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: So when you were there with those 20 people,
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: so you're saying you got a sense of Peter,
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: but like,
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: what else did you discover about this?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is the thing I've always wondered is like,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: how does a group of 20 year olds who have never done this before,
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: like what did they figure out in their culture that worked?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Probably haven't thought about this enough to like really comment on it,
• 9:24
  but I feel like it's almost as simple as just you just put one
• 9:27
  step in front of the
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: other.
• 9:28
  Like you figure out,
• 9:29
  okay,
• 9:30
  this is the goal and this is kind of the next step in that
• 9:32
  direction.
• 9:32
  So let's do it and let's do it as fast as we can and we're
• 9:35
  going to get there and
• 9:36
  then we're going to learn some more and then we're going to
• 9:37
  figure out the next
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: step.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: And like it really is that elementary, if you like.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: looking back,
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: lots of,
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: we made tons of mistakes,
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: even those six months that I was there.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, the timelines were all bananas.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: we thought we were going to qualify engines in whatever,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: a quarter of the time that it ended up actually taking,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: it was the classic.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: times your budget by two and time by pi or whatever.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that all roughly worked out.
• 10:05
  But I guess the common denominator here is just the relentless
• 10:12
  drive and clarity of
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: vision that they had.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone had that.
• 10:16
  Pete obviously had it,
• 10:16
  but everyone in their own individual roles had it as well.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: And no one wanted to believe that it wasn't possible.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess to some extent it was just raw naivety that nobody...
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: actually understood how hard it was, what they were doing.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: old adage there as well,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: like if you knew how hard it was at the start,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: you wouldn't have done it.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe that naivety is just a bit of a benefit.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: 100%, yeah.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe just being remote and away from some of the bullshit that...
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: Comes with all this, let you focus a little bit.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: And you studied aeronautics?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:51
  I did a bachelor's of aerospace and a master's in space systems
• 10:54
  engineering.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 10:56
  Well,
• 10:56
  I know you were at Rocket Lab for a little bit,
• 10:58
  then I think you were at Hyperion?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was like a little startup in Delft.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then pretty quickly started your own company.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 11:07
  It was pretty,
• 11:08
  and I mean,
• 11:10
  I kind of started that company while I was working at Hyperion.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: So Hyperion are actually early shareholders in Dawn,
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: and that was kind of like a trade of,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be spending more and more of my time on my own thing,
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: and you're going to support me while I do it.
• 11:24
  And some of the technology that we were working on was related
• 11:27
  to prior projects with Hyperion.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that was kind of the deal that we worked out there.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So they were great in supporting us early on.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: So what year did Don start and what was the original mission?
• 11:41
  The original mission was we had been working together for seven
• 11:45
  years or something
• 11:45
  at that point in a student society and we just realized we were
• 11:49
  really great at
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: building stuff.
• 11:50
  We built these big hybrid rockets and broke some European
• 11:52
  records and stuff and that was cool.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: But we realized like, shit, we're really good at this.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're a scrappy team,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: with tiny amounts of money,
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: we develop new technology,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: we should make a business out of this.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the original email I sent was actually,
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: it was,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: the subject line was badass rocket company.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: What's the original name?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that must have been 2015.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:17
  And then we won some like small startup prize things in like
• 12:21
  2016 or 17 or something.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that forced us to like open a company in a bank account and whatnot.
• 12:26
  But then like the moment where we all quit our jobs and did
• 12:29
  this full time was like
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: September 2018.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: 2018.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: And did you think you were going to be a rocket company initially?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:39
  So we originally actually tried to commercialize the technology
• 12:42
  that we developed
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: as students,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: like these big hybrid rockets,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: and we realized,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: we really,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: really don't like hybrid rockets.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I know there's lots of companies building hybrid rockets now,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm sorry,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: but I know enough about hybrids,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: and I never want to build another one in my life.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: And for people who don't know what a hybrid rocket is, what is it?
• 12:57
  It's like you use a liquid propellant for your oxidizer usually
• 13:01
  and then like a solid fuel.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: So in theory,
• 13:04
  you get the best of both worlds out of like a controllability
• 13:06
  of a liquid,
• 13:07
  but it's quite safe because it's very hard to accidentally mix
• 13:09
  those two things and
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: blow them up.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you also get a lot of the bad sides of both.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like you get grain cracking from it being a hybrid.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: But then if you want it to be really high performance,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: you still want to use cryogenic liquids,
• 13:20
  which you really need for hybrids because otherwise their
• 13:23
  performance is pretty
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: bad.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you still have a cryogenic liquid.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's a long story.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's a mess.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: So the solids give you sort of simplicity, a bit cheaper.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: The liquids let you start and stop.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: You have way more nuance and the world has tilted towards liquids.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: But there's still this desire to do both at the same time.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Especially when you start talking about reusability.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because like...
• 13:50
  a reusable well we can talk about reusability like that that
• 13:54
  was what we landed on
• 13:55
  as dawn as like the key element like we tried to market this
• 14:00
  hybrid rocket and we
• 14:00
  just realized it's just way too expensive and it's just it's
• 14:03
  maybe an iterative
• 14:04
  improvement over the status quo yeah but it's not a revolution
• 14:07
  yeah and we need to
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: go for a revolution okay so like in 2015 the way that you
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: cause of revolution in spaceflight is reusability.
• 14:15
  Like SpaceX was already talking about it at that point,
• 14:18
  kind of had ideas about it.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: No one was really talking much about in-space refueling all that much.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was kind of like a crazy notion.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, well, I think we can figure out all these things.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're far from physically impossible.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where my brother actually came into the story,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: where he had been working in proper aerospace,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: like he was doing helicopter modifications,
• 14:42
  designing and building them in New Zealand and then exporting
• 14:44
  them around the
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: world.
• 14:45
  And there's like really well set up mechanisms for doing that
• 14:47
  sort of R&D and
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: exporting it at scale.
• 14:50
  And I actually did an internship at the business he was working
• 14:54
  at as well and then
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: saw this for myself and we kind of put our heads together and said,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: these high performance rockets that we're building as students,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think we can do that,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: but in a truly like aerospace context,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: like of,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: of like airline style,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: where we,
• 15:13
  we build these parts as aircraft and then we like license them
• 15:17
  as aircraft and we
• 15:18
  fly them out of airports and we get the reusability and the
• 15:21
  scalability of
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: aircraft,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: but still with the performance of a rocket,
• 15:24
  like we can actually mash these two worlds together and get
• 15:26
  something that's truly
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: the best of both worlds.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: and then,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: as I mentioned,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: your business has a couple elements to it,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: but let's start with the space plane for a second,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: which is a bit of what you're talking about.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so let's describe it to people.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, let's show and tell them for a second.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Here's one I prepared early.
• 15:49
  Okay.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Stefan is grabbing the space plane.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Ungodly huge thing.
• 15:56
  It's large on a table,
• 15:58
  but if you're viewing at home or on YouTube,
• 16:01
  I suppose you can see it.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: So how big is this in real life?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: So the rear one, like this is, we call it Aurora.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: The rear one's about five meters long, 2.4 meter wingspan.
• 16:12
  In various configurations,
• 16:15
  it weighs between 200 kilograms and 450 kilograms.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So the one we're flying right now is about 200, 250 kilograms or so.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And how much can it hold in payload?
• 16:26
  like not very much five kilograms but like the point of this
• 16:29
  vehicle was really a
• 16:30
  technology demonstrator for like putting the performance of a
• 16:33
  rocket in something
• 16:34
  that's truly an aircraft and by that I mean you know it's not
• 16:37
  just reusable like an
• 16:39
  aircraft but it also is flies from common infrastructure like
• 16:43
  from airports like an
• 16:45
  aircraft and it's also regulated as an aircraft and those three
• 16:48
  elements are really
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: key otherwise you lose the business model of it of being an aircraft
• 16:53
  yeah okay well i have lots of questions about that but the
• 16:56
  payload goes up top yep
• 16:58
  yeah the the payload here and actually the so the next
• 17:01
  generation version has
• 17:02
  between six and ten kilograms so upgraded that a little bit but
• 17:05
  yeah it just goes
• 17:06
  in the back here so for people who are just listening kind of
• 17:09
  in the cockpit ish
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: area or nearish where you would imagine a cockpit i suppose
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Near the front.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty much.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty much.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: We'll call it cockpit area.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:19
  And does it eject the payload in the space or you're carrying
• 17:24
  it up and...
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: It totally depends what they want to do.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like aircraft, there's so many applications for this vehicle.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: But most want to actually just contain it.
• 17:34
  Like they want to test some avionics or Scout Space is one
• 17:39
  customer that they've
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: got a space domain awareness payload.
• 17:43
  So that's a camera that they want to fly up really high above
• 17:46
  the atmosphere and
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: then be able to take photos of satellites in low earth orbit.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: And would they attach that somewhere on the exterior of this?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: like in that sort of like cockpit position,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: they've got cameras looking up and out of the aircraft.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like an array of three cameras in there.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Let's see.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Before we put this away.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Before we put this away, let's talk about it more.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And the engine is what?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: The engine is a liquid bi-propellant engine.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: So electric pump fed.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it uses hydrogen peroxide and kerosene.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: So these are nice storable propellants.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Still pretty high performance though.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Very dense.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:29
  they lend themselves very well to aircraft because you can pack
• 18:32
  that propellant
• 18:33
  into lots of tiny little spaces in it so we put propellant all
• 18:37
  through the wings
• 18:37
  like aircraft do you know about 70% of the length of the body
• 18:42
  is all propellant as
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: well
• 18:44
  um but yeah being non-cryogenic you can fill it up and then you
• 18:47
  could leave it
• 18:48
  there for a day if you wanted you know you can roll it out onto
• 18:50
  the runway and you
• 18:52
  know we integrate with other traffic so you wait for an
• 18:55
  aircraft to go past and
• 18:56
  then you can fly in behind it cryogenic systems can't do that
• 18:59
  so well like they're
• 19:00
  very time sensitive so yeah try to stay away from that okay all
• 19:04
  right maybe we
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: should let's fly it away for a second it's gone to space
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 19:14
  so when you talk about that having the performance of the
• 19:20
  rocket world with the
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: planes,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: how would that be different in terms of performance to a fighter jet or,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: if we think of the most kind of propulsive planes?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:33
  When you compare it to aircraft,
• 19:34
  it very quickly gets embarrassing for the aircraft world.
• 19:36
  So like even this,
• 19:38
  you know,
• 19:38
  we're not even at the full performance prototype stage.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: We're like sort of a quarter of the way there, if you like.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Of where you want to go.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:46
  Like the Aurora that we're flying right now,
• 19:48
  that flies up to 25 kilometers altitude.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like 80-ish, 85,000 feet-ish.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:56
  That has already beaten the world record ever for flying off a
• 20:03
  runway to 20
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: kilometers altitude.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that was set by an F-15 that they'd totally stripped out,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: like stripped all the paint off,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: stripped the radars out of it.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously no armaments, minimum fuel.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: It got to 20 kilometers altitude in 122 seconds or something.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we did it in 118.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: With our like quite low performance version of our aircraft.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 20:24
  So the next version we'll be able to do it in like probably
• 20:26
  under 110 seconds.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: So the fastest thing to get, how many miles, how high up is that?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 25 kilometers is 82,000 feet.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Which is, I don't know, in miles.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: Times 5.6.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: We can work with kilometers, that helps.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: So just like the fastest we've ever been able to get that high in...
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that's in terms of climb rate.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think the highest an aircraft has ever flown is 125,000 feet.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: We've done 80 so far.
• 20:58
  We're going to fly to over 330,000 feet,
• 21:00
  so we'll more than 2x that record.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the other one is speed.
• 21:05
  So the fastest thing to ever fly off a runway is SR-71
• 21:08
  Blackbird does Mach 3.3.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: We should crack 3.5, maybe something closer to 3.8.
• 21:18
  Now,
• 21:18
  we only do that in bursts,
• 21:19
  so there's a little bit of a difference there.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's our peak velocity, while it could cruise at 3.3, so yeah.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 21:28
  and these first records that we were talking about were in the
• 21:32
  craft that you were
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: just discussing the dimensions of.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: So you're saying this is just like early version?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's like the first stage.
• 21:42
  That vehicle was originally envisioned as a technology
• 21:44
  demonstrator for like,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: this is the performance of a rocket in an airplane.
• 21:48
  That basically means it has enough performance to replicate
• 21:51
  what like a Falcon 9
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: first stage would do.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's small, so it doesn't have much payload.
• 21:56
  But if you took this exact same craft and you scaled it up so
• 21:59
  that it would have a
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: bunch more payload,
• 22:01
  then you could put a second stage on it and you'd have a
• 22:03
  two-stage to orbit
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: vehicle.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Where that first stage is truly an aircraft.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: in every way.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: That was the point of that technology demonstration.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: I see.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: So the plane will come back and then the rocket part will keep going.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Would go off into orbit.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: And what is the schedule and plans for that?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: How big will that be?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a vehicle we've always had on our website as the Mark III.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we've always talked about it as that.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: But the funny thing is,
• 22:28
  is that we've actually realized there's just way more value in
• 22:33
  these very reusable
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: vehicles than we ever thought.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: we have a customer now,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:38
  we've got a partnership with the state of Oklahoma to bring
• 22:43
  this vehicle to
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oklahoma so that they can fly microgravity payloads,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: they can do all kinds of national security research with it.
• 22:49
  There's just tons of uses for this vehicle that we originally
• 22:52
  thought was a
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: technology demonstrator.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, shit, there's actually a real technology pull here.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: People want this.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it flies to the edge of space, like slightly suborbital.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, yep.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And where,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: like you say,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: so you can test scientific instruments,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: you can do defense tests,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: you can do imaging tests,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: comms tests,
• 23:10
  all kinds of things in this environment that you just cannot
• 23:14
  get on Earth.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: We do sounding rockets and everything all the time.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it's in this sweet spot of like science, defense, and what else?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: like science,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: but that's massively broad as in like pharma,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: like life sciences,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: growing proteins in microgravity,
• 23:33
  semiconductor growing like high quality crystals for like ultra
• 23:39
  performance
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: electronics.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, national security, like missile presentation is a huge one.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: They were like target simulation.
• 23:46
  Like,
• 23:46
  you know,
• 23:47
  projects like Golden Dome,
• 23:49
  $180 billion of expenditure on missile defense.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you effectively test that?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: How do you train your troops?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do you essentially simulate what these missiles are doing?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, you can launch a $100 million missile to do that.
• 23:59
  But what if you can fly a vehicle around that basically does
• 24:02
  the same thing for 100 grand?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now you can do it very frequently and in many different situations.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: The possibilities just go so wide.
• 24:14
  The business models just completely change when it goes from
• 24:17
  being a multi-million
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: dollar exercise to a $100,000 exercise.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: So you were talking about pharmaceuticals and semiconductors.
• 24:24
  There is this fascinating thing where if you're outside of the
• 24:28
  bounds of gravity,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: the molecules arrange themselves in these very clean,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: different ways than you can do on Earth.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so yes, for years, people have been
• 24:37
  doing chemical and pharmaceutical experiments on the
• 24:41
  International Space Station.
• 24:42
  VARDA has created a whole business of sending these capsules
• 24:47
  into orbit for a period of time.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: So if people want to run experiments like that,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: how long can they be suborbital in the Dawn craft?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you get about three minutes of microgravity.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: So like in lots of cases, yeah, that's not going to do what you want.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like you need to go to orbit for that thing.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: But like if we look at semiconductors,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: they've done about 300 odd tests in space of different,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: like trying to manufacture different types of semiconductors.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: But in almost every case,
• 25:14
  it's literally just taking the same on earth process and trying
• 25:17
  to show that it's
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: better in space.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's like no tweaking of the variables.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of variables that go into that manufacturing process.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe the answer is yes, we want to manufacture them in orbit.
• 25:28
  But if the question is exactly what settings do we want to have
• 25:31
  on that device,
• 25:33
  if you have to go to orbit every time you want to change the
• 25:35
  settings and make that
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: investigation,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: that's like a two-year cycle at least to get up there and do that.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's just way too slow.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: You've got 10 different parameters with 50 different settings on each.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: if you can investigate these in a suborbital context,
• 25:50
  you only need to grow like a few micron of semiconductor to
• 25:55
  figure out whether
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: that's a better setting or not.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you could do, you know, a dozen tests in a week.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: That just completely changes the velocity of science.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And like maybe that means,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 26:05
  you figure out the settings in a suborbital context and then
• 26:08
  you do it for real
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: time.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: in the orbital domain.
• 26:12
  But I think what we're actually really excited about is
• 26:17
  discovering that maybe we
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: don't have to go to orbit for a bunch of these things.
• 26:20
  Maybe we can actually get way more value out of sub-orbit by
• 26:24
  growing what's called
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: seed crystals,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: like lots of pharmaceuticals,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: semiconductor.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you just grow that first bit of crystal perfectly,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: the first few microns,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: then you can actually grow it
• 26:36
  in gravity on top of that perfect crystal and keep propagating
• 26:39
  a perfect crystal.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right, you bring back this foundational chunk.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 26:46
  And like this has crazy implications for like just picking on
• 26:49
  semiconductor again.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's a multi-trillion dollar industry.
• 26:53
  The entire yield of all of their chips is defined by the
• 26:57
  quality of the silicon
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: ingot that they grow to start with.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: if you improve the quality of that ingot,
• 27:05
  then all the chips coming out the end are just going to be
• 27:07
  higher quality and
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: better.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Did you know, like, Intel's i3, i5, i7, i9 chip?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know they're all exactly the same chip?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: The only difference is that an I3 has way more defects than an I9.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:21
  And it's actually like if you have a perfect crystal at the
• 27:24
  start of your process,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: then all the chips coming out the end are going to be I9s.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you're going to put their branding person out of business.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: I have so many questions now.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: To put some of this in perspective, I think on this Oklahoma deal,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: I love the world we live in.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we are living in science fiction.
• 27:48
  We've got a New Zealand aerospace company flying out of a
• 27:51
  spaceport in Oklahoma.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Where is the spaceport?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: It burns flat, so it's way in the west of Oklahoma.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and it so happens.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think the United States actually has like 12 licensed spaceports.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: Which boggles my mind.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: The U.S.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: is great if you have a plane because we have like so many airports,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: but we actually have just like tons of spaceports apparently as well.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: And they haven't had a lot of stuff to fly from these spaceports.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was reading about you guys' deal.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, usually when I see these things announced, it's like...
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: One rocket,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: and some test thing,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: and many years are going to pass between the second flight.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: But Oklahoma about like 100...
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: we're supplying it with parts,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: service,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: and maintenance for 100 flights.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: 100 flights.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: And you guys are like,
• 28:41
  there's people from Oklahoma who are going to fly to New
• 28:43
  Zealand to get trained up,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: and then they're going to come back.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: So tell me how this works.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how many...
• 28:48
  of these planes will they have one plane that they're flying a
• 28:51
  hundred times or
• 28:51
  they have multiple or yeah yeah yeah they'll have one plane
• 28:53
  that they fly a hundred
• 28:54
  times which is like not that's not special for aircraft right
• 28:57
  like in the context
• 28:58
  of aircraft that's not even that's normal impressive yeah that
• 29:01
  might be like what
• 29:01
  like a year's worth of flights or well not even like you know
• 29:05
  most aircraft would
• 29:06
  do multiple flights a day yeah so well okay so sorry yeah i
• 29:09
  kind of got ahead of
• 29:10
  myself i mean you could fly how much how much prep does it take
• 29:13
  to get your plane
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: ready to reuse again
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: So in an R&D context, we've turned around aircraft in like six hours.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Six hours.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's totally doable.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: So multiple flights a day is not hard.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just like however often they want to fly it to get to those 100.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: But like if you kind of like zoom out a little bit,
• 29:31
  what we're really doing here is we're actually just trying to
• 29:33
  completely change the
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: business model of space.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like space has always been at you buy a service.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm a taxi ride.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: You want to come to suborbital space or orbital space or whatever.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: You want to go to the moon.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can pay me for that service and I'll do it for you once.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: If you want it again, you have to come back and buy it again.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I won't sell you the capability.
• 29:52
  I definitely won't sell you a rocket factory so that you can
• 29:55
  have like an ongoing ability.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not how the airline industry works.
• 30:00
  Like it's totally untenable for a company like a Boeing or a
• 30:03
  Lockheed Martin
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: to be an airline for every country around the world.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's just a ridiculous notion.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's way too complicated.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: The scale is way too big.
• 30:12
  There is no way Boeing is ever going to understand the local
• 30:15
  market dynamics in
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thailand or whatever to understand how to best run an airline.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if we change that,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: and we are changing that with Oklahoma,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: the whole point of that partnership
• 30:28
  Is that,
• 30:28
  yes,
• 30:28
  we provide the vehicle and we provide local training for the
• 30:31
  people.
• 30:32
  And there's clauses in the contract that they can completely
• 30:35
  take over the
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: operation of that vehicle at the end of the first year of operation.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: So they can take it in whatever direction they want.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's their vehicle.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's the point.
• 30:44
  And we can move on to the next people and enable them,
• 30:47
  you know,
• 30:48
  the next ecosystem to spool up.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: it's what you're saying is,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oklahoma becomes a spacefaring state,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: under their own control.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: And even to your point about the rockets,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: even when we have reusable rockets,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:02
  it's like SpaceX is flying the reusable rockets and there is
• 31:06
  still an immense
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: amount of infrastructure.
• 31:09
  involved to have this a pad that's running at that sort of
• 31:14
  efficiency you're not
• 31:15
  just handing it over to florida or wherever yeah exactly and
• 31:19
  like there's very good
• 31:20
  reasons why spacex doesn't employ this business model but like
• 31:23
  it it does limit how
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: far it's going to go
• 31:25
  yeah are you guys i know there's itar restrictions around
• 31:30
  rocket lab so you do
• 31:32
  you're nodding that you you also have itar restrictions on
• 31:35
  these types of are you
• 31:36
  limited on who you can sell these planes to not quite itar
• 31:40
  because it's all made
• 31:42
  outside of the u.s so there's no there's no american knowledge
• 31:45
  if you like right in
• 31:45
  the vehicle but there there are other um restrictions like eir
• 31:49
  and of course new
• 31:50
  zealand has all kinds of export restrictions you know this is
• 31:53
  not going to get sent
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: to north korea
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: So the, yeah, sorry, I messed up.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: I just,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: the ITAR stuff,
• 31:58
  I always associate just because Rocket Lab ended up putting
• 32:01
  their headquarters in
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: the U.S.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, but they're set up super complicated in that respect.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: Since they're making missiles and the U.S.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: wanted to keep an eye on all that.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: So this is in how many, okay.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: So if
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: How many of these planes,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: like what if 100 cities want to do,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: how many of these planes do you have?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then we'll build 100 planes.
• 32:26
  And like in that respect,
• 32:27
  actually,
• 32:28
  like I think we're really well set up.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we haven't talked at all about the in-space propulsion stuff,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: we're already producing hundreds of thrusters for satellites.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: We've got 150 in orbit.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: We'll build about 50 prop systems for satellites this year.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: So like we...
• 32:43
  understand pretty well complex manufacturing i would accept
• 32:47
  like propulsion systems
• 32:48
  is not the same as aircraft but in the end it's all high-tech
• 32:51
  manufacturing and
• 32:52
  it's same same but different if you like um you guys started in
• 32:57
  christchurch uh
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: technically in delft okay but and now you're in auckland
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or now we're headquartered in Christchurch.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you are in Christchurch.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and is that where the engine manufacturing takes place?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: so everything on the component level happens in Christchurch,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: and then we send all those components over to the Netherlands,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: and they get integrated there.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, about...
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: 40% of the companies in Delft.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: I underestimated the Netherlands.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a huge part of it.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:27
  Like on our,
• 33:28
  on our own space propulsion side,
• 33:29
  European customers are about 70% of the business.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Is that, yeah.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like why, why split things up?
• 33:35
  Is it to help with the European side of the business or why not
• 33:38
  just do everything
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: in Christchurch?
• 33:40
  um europe has a lot of expertise in aerospace in particular
• 33:45
  like not just on the
• 33:46
  aircraft side but the space side as well and being close to
• 33:49
  your customers super
• 33:50
  important so um that was really important for us especially in
• 33:54
  the early days like
• 33:55
  lots of our um like like our our best first customers were all
• 34:00
  in europe um yeah
• 34:01
  like i say 70 percent of our business is there just being close
• 34:03
  to customers just
• 34:04
  makes life so much easier okay so you're you're putting these
• 34:07
  thrusters on european
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: satellites
• 34:09
  yeah yeah mostly yeah okay and and again sorry just for people
• 34:13
  who are not from the
• 34:14
  space industry i mean these thrusters help they go on the
• 34:16
  satellites they help move
• 34:17
  the satellites around avoid collisions change their orbits for
• 34:21
  whatever they're
• 34:21
  trying to do there's a bunch of obviously there's companies
• 34:26
  historically that have
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: made these sorts of thrusters but there's a huge right there's a
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like what's going on in the thruster land right now?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's a bunch of startups in the US that are doing thrusters.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's you guys.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: This is stuff that's been around for a while.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, we have a ton more satellites coming.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're all just scrambling to meet that demand.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like when Dawn started in 2000,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: like when it really got off the ground in 2018,
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was like 4,000 operational satellites or less.
• 34:56
  There's probably about,
• 34:57
  well,
• 34:58
  in low Earth orbit,
• 34:59
  there's probably about 2,500.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then, yeah, whatever else was further out.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: And now there's like 12,000.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, given like most of that's Starlink, for sure.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: But like a lot of other stuff is coming.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like Starlink is just comms.
• 35:16
  But there's about three different flavors of Earth observation
• 35:20
  that are coming.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's probably...
• 35:21
  four or five at least major strategic like areas that want
• 35:26
  their own independent
• 35:27
  system so you know you're talking multiples of these two
• 35:31
  numbers you know it's
• 35:32
  going to be at least 20 mega constellations of various flavors
• 35:35
  yeah um they're all
• 35:37
  going to need at least thousands of satellites if not tens of
• 35:40
  thousands yeah so
• 35:41
  like what's happening in the propulsion world everyone's
• 35:43
  scrambling to meet this
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: scale man yeah like
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's a real challenge.
• 35:48
  And so like Tom Mueller,
• 35:51
  who was one of the co-founders of SpaceX,
• 35:53
  he left to do impulse space.
• 35:54
  Their whole mission is things like this and then moving bigger
• 35:57
  objects around.
• 35:59
  What is the advantage of your propulsion systems over some of
• 36:04
  these others?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: so Tom,
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: they're all about bringing stuff out to geo,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: like direct geo insertion.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: They're doing these, like, throughout the solar system missions, too.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the big selling points they talk about is being fast.
• 36:21
  Like,
• 36:21
  you know,
• 36:22
  typically it takes three months or more to get your thing
• 36:24
  from...
• 36:25
  a geotransfer orbit out to actual geo in three months of time
• 36:29
  for one of these
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: satellites is worth at least $10 million.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like they earn $40 million a year.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: So time is money.
• 36:35
  We're kind of the same in that we're bringing back chemical
• 36:39
  propulsion to low Earth orbit.
• 36:40
  Lots of them went to electric propulsion because it was cheaper
• 36:44
  and easier,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: but it is very slow.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: especially as the price of getting to orbit comes down,
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: the cost of,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: if you like,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: of getting a less efficient chemical system to space goes down.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: But the value of that time is still very high.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: The value of space is very high.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of having a propulsion system on for months,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: every time you want to change the orbit,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: you can just do a maneuver in seconds.
• 37:07
  Okay,
• 37:08
  and so you get this higher volume of energy by doing chemical
• 37:14
  propulsion.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep, exactly.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: This is a bit of space where I'm bad.
• 37:21
  Because hasn't historically some of the chemical propulsion
• 37:24
  been these hypergolics
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: that are super horrible?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 37:29
  things yeah that was a such a big reason to go away from it
• 37:32
  because it's just super
• 37:33
  toxic super nasty like you don't want to put this on hundreds
• 37:36
  of satellites at a
• 37:37
  time because if anyone leaks like it's a major deal and you
• 37:41
  know statistically
• 37:41
  speaking all systems leak at some point so um yep great reason
• 37:46
  to go to electric um
• 37:48
  where you're just dealing with xenon or krypton if like you
• 37:50
  have a small leak it's
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: not a big deal that system won't work but it won't
• 37:54
  you know be an issue for everyone else um we use nitrous oxide
• 37:59
  and properly which
• 38:00
  like nitrous oxide you literally can breathe it's it's not
• 38:03
  toxic everybody loves it
• 38:04
  yeah and the other one's pretty much barbecue gas so i wouldn't
• 38:07
  recommend breathing
• 38:08
  it but it's not going to kill you that quickly so um yeah super
• 38:12
  accessible super
• 38:13
  easy still very high performance we actually get better isp
• 38:16
  performance than uh
• 38:18
  hydrazine monopropellant systems which is what's typical in
• 38:20
  these smaller systems
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: okay
• 38:22
  um so what like because i just always hear so what is a
• 38:26
  hypergolic what it just
• 38:27
  means as soon as you put them together they'll ignite like you
• 38:30
  don't need to light
• 38:31
  it so like why are it's it it was this was always presented to
• 38:35
  me before as like a
• 38:36
  you had to do that or you did electric and there was no like
• 38:40
  yeah yeah there really
• 38:41
  wasn't any other option but you guys figured you figured out
• 38:44
  some recipe that
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: people had missed or
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, like nitrous wasn't new.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like students had been using nitrous for ages.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that, man, the aerospace industry is so antiquated at its core.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like everything's just so old school.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like hypergolics have been used since the 60s.
• 38:59
  And no one had done particularly new propellants actually in
• 39:02
  space for ages.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: So like, yeah, there were students playing around with nitrous.
• 39:08
  Decades ago,
• 39:09
  we were the first to just say,
• 39:10
  hey,
• 39:11
  we can actually do this properly.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, let's take it from the party.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get serious about this.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: We can use this,
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: be really effective,
• 39:23
  prove that spark ignition works in cars millions of times
• 39:27
  without changing spark
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: plugs.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: We can do that in space too.
• 39:30
  There's definitely a bit of working that out and making it
• 39:34
  appropriate for
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: satellites,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: if you like,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: and proving that it works in space.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: But like,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: in 2018,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: when we had this massive dream of like,
• 39:43
  we need to reinvent all of space transportation because there's
• 39:47
  50,000 satellites
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: that have got to get launched and the current methods just don't work.
• 39:51
  Like that was like a dream that required billions of dollars of
• 39:54
  investment.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: We couldn't start there,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: but it was like,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: there's this smaller problem of replacing hydrazine with nitrous.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably like a million dollars of investment.
• 40:03
  And then there's real,
• 40:04
  like we can make a real tangible single step towards this
• 40:09
  grander goal.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was the starting point.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know?
• 40:12
  And all the,
• 40:13
  the hydrazine,
• 40:14
  I think,
• 40:14
  as I understand it,
• 40:15
  like all comes from Russia and China.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Tons of it comes from China.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 40:20
  I think that there are us suppliers working to establish that
• 40:24
  now because yeah,
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: that's like a major strategic non-dependence issue.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like so many things.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: Just put it on the list.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: Just keep doing this.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and so, um,
• 40:37
  So that business has been up and running as you've sold dozens
• 40:40
  upon dozens of these.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know like which one becomes the bigger business over time or,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: or you just hope they both is like one more of the focus than the other.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: I would say we're very opportunistic about both of them.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like both of them have big macro tailwinds.
• 41:00
  Like when SpaceX started the transporter flights,
• 41:04
  that was just like flicked a switch.
• 41:06
  Suddenly everyone needed responsive low-cost propulsion because
• 41:09
  everyone was going
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: to get dumped out in these orbits.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: They were the bus to space.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then they needed to go where they actually wanted to go.
• 41:16
  And we could deliver low-cost systems with a low lead time that
• 41:22
  actually worked.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like we had good...
• 41:24
  um flight heritage at that point and so yeah like we like sales
• 41:29
  just turned on and
• 41:31
  and if starship becomes a thing then that's going to get 10x
• 41:35
  like the the price is
• 41:37
  going to go down even more people are going to need even more
• 41:39
  propulsion um so yeah
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: like like that's going to be huge for us um on on the flip side
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: The space plane is fucking cool.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty cool.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not hard to sell, that's for sure.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: like we went from that being a,
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 41:56
  this is a technology demonstrator for an even more scalable way
• 41:59
  to get to space,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: like to orbit.
• 42:03
  And now we've had this incredible technology pull of not just
• 42:06
  people wanting to use
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: the vehicle,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: but people wanting to buy the vehicle.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, oh, crap, we have to commercialize this.
• 42:11
  The other huge macro tailwind there is US defense spending in
• 42:18
  hypersonics has gone
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: from $200 million in 2018 to $7 billion today.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's just such a crazy change that we definitely didn't predict that.
• 42:27
  And that's part of why the underlying demand for a highly
• 42:31
  reusable vehicle
• 42:33
  high performance aircraft essentially is is now useful so it's
• 42:37
  it's pretty trivial
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: to upgrade this vehicle from mark 3.5 to mark 5.5 or whatever is actually
• 42:42
  attractive to for them it's context there and correct me if i'm
• 42:47
  wrong please um
• 42:49
  turns out china's been doing all this hypersonic research is
• 42:52
  appears to be years
• 42:54
  ahead of the united states so the defense department has been
• 42:56
  suspending gobs and
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: gobs of money to suddenly run a bunch of hypersonic
• 43:00
  tests and so you have this vehicle that flies very fast into
• 43:04
  the edge of space and
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: and can help us test things
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty useful for that.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like pretty,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: pretty useful for like,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: especially on the research side,
• 43:12
  like just giving you unfettered access to these domains where
• 43:15
  you can actually like
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: in a,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: basically fly like a,
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: it's a flying wind tunnel essentially.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:21
  Like if you have some avionics or some materials or an engine
• 43:25
  component or whatever
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: you want to get to this domain,
• 43:27
  like you can kind of do that in a wind tunnel in the ground or
• 43:30
  you can do it in
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: simulation,
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: but it's not the same as doing it for real.
• 43:33
  So you actually need these,
• 43:34
  these three things to have a really effective,
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: like design capability.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:40
  I don't want to put you on the spot,
• 43:41
  but I kind of do want to put you on the spot.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, go for it.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 43:43
  because we're like hinting around this bigger version of the
• 43:48
  plane or you're saying
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: it's possible,
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: but the other one is doing a lot of business.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the tea leaves I'm reading are either the like...
• 43:56
  you kind of don't want to announce something specific on terms
• 43:59
  of like what it
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: would look like or timing or,
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 44:02
  maybe you have some big surprise coming or you need some big
• 44:07
  pocket of money to
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: like make that happen.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 44:12
  surprisingly you don't need big pockets of money because this
• 44:15
  is such attractive
• 44:16
  stuff for customers that they'll mostly pay for development
• 44:19
  like that's that's a
• 44:20
  really important part like if you if what we're doing is not
• 44:23
  attractive enough that
• 44:24
  customers will wait for it don't do it okay um but yeah like
• 44:28
  there definitely will
• 44:28
  be a vehicle between aurora and like a two-stage to orbit
• 44:33
  concept okay and it's
• 44:34
  just it's just you you guys are just not telling us exactly
• 44:38
  what it will look like
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: or when yet yeah
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think once we have that properly defined,
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: so it's not shifting around every six months,
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: then we'll tell the world about it.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I don't mean this to sound as...
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: puffy as,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: as it is,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: but you guys have like always really impressed me because it's,
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: it's like you were a company again,
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: founded by really young people in New Zealand.
• 45:02
  You've done like nothing but kind of deliver on the things that
• 45:07
  you set out to do.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said,
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: with the engines,
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: you've actually built them,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: flown them,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: they're in space.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the, you,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember the exact timeline you had for the plane,
• 45:18
  but I just remember clicking on the internet every now and then
• 45:21
  I'm always like,
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: they did it.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: So like how, how big is the company now?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: You're about 120 people.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: 120 people.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 45:30
  At least you're keeping the New Zealand track record of people
• 45:35
  doing what they say
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: they're going to do in aerospace in good stead.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's big shows to fill.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: This never happens in aerospace, though, and now...
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: like maybe like,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 45:51
  maybe you should be telling us why actually you're the one that
• 45:53
  studied this a
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: whole bunch.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, I think it's just, it's like, ah, there's so many factors.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think once, once you have.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: any sort of startup-y commercial part of space.
• 46:04
  I think part of it's like kind of lying and then part of it's
• 46:08
  optimism and
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: everyone's just,
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: they get really excited and it's like,
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: we can do that.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that it always just takes longer than you thought.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then I saw it happen with the rocket companies every time,
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: which was that you get 90% of the way there in like a year.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then you think you're six months from flying.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then it turns out that last 10% takes like two to four years.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's like standard 80-20 rule, right?
• 46:33
  Like 20% of the effort gets you 80% of the way there and the
• 46:36
  other 80% gets you 20%
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: of the way there.
• 46:39
  But it was funny to watch people who had like been through this
• 46:42
  before and still
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: talk themselves.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think it's lying.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's like some kind of self-delusion of hope.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: And like to some extent,
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: like a little bit of that is necessary,
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: but like at some point it also becomes hubris,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you get burnt eventually by hubris.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: because you start running into the thing where the money,
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: it's,
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: if you've also fooled yourself,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: then you're in trouble.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: And like the money side of this is important, right?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you run out of money,
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't matter how much dedication you have,
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: like it'll fall over.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 47:18
  so I found this really interesting because when I was working
• 47:22
  on the book and the
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: movie,
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: I got to go to New Zealand a bunch of times.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so Rocket Lab was,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: Peter's from the South Island,
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: but for all intents and purposes,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: it's always been an Auckland affair.
• 47:35
  But most of the aerospace startups that I was running to were
• 47:40
  based in Christchurch
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: on the South Island.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: If you've never been to Christchurch, it's a beautiful place.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like a wonderful place to like raise a family.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's smallish, but it has like... It's got everything we need.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's got this cool vibe to it.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's got good restaurants.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, I don't know.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: I really enjoyed it there.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: How...
• 48:01
  I tell people this all the time and now maybe I'm about to like
• 48:04
  call myself a liar,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: but I mean,
• 48:06
  there does seem to be a legitimate aerospace scene in and
• 48:11
  around Christchurch and
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: in New Zealand more broadly.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is this true?
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, I can attest to it.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: and I don't...
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: Hard to say exactly what it is,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: like what draws people in,
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: but I feel like it is a really nice-sized city.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: That really helps, just easy to get across and easy to do stuff.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: But there's something about the mentality of the people as well.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's just a real pioneering spirit.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it kind of just comes from...
• 48:40
  us not being a particularly mature country you know like
• 48:44
  everyone just barely came
• 48:46
  to the country within the last 150 years so we're all like
• 48:52
  migrants to some extent
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: but of course with the exception of the local tribes but even there
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're very entrepreneurial.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: They're very engaged with, you know, even specifically with aerospace.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: like the place that we're flying out of now,
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: Tawaki,
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: is a joint venture between the local iwi,
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: the local tribe,
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: and the New Zealand government.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, even they're super plugged into what's going on.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is that on the South Island?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like just an hour south of our...
• 49:27
  headquarters how many how many aerospace companies do you think
• 49:31
  there are in new
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: zealand like a handful or are we up to like a dozen oh um
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: companies over 10 people is probably still only a handful.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's still pretty small.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I, you know, I don't think I'm fully wrong.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think if you go United States,
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: if we're talking like space startups,
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: especially of consequence,
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: Europe will have a few,
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: okay.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: On the satellite side,
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: it gets slimmer pickings,
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: as you get into rockets,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: things that fly,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like I would kind of put New Zealand after the United States,
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: with like most interesting,
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: at least like kind of bigger,
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: different ideas,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I'll reserve judgment.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'll take the compliment.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's definitely close.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: And we're talking about a country with like, what?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how many million people?
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, five million.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: Five million.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and... Okay, and I forget China.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: China's its own thing.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: They definitely have a lot going on as well.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I do have to give the Dutch arm of...
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: Dawn Aerospace,
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of credit though,
• 50:40
  because like this wouldn't have happened if it was just a New
• 50:42
  Zealand company.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: And like,
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think that really speaks to the,
• 50:47
  like we've been able to be so scrappy and so forward leaning
• 50:51
  into our customer base
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: because we have been close to customers.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's one of the real challenges in New Zealand.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like we hit, there's a ton of good reasons to be there.
• 51:00
  Like the,
• 51:01
  the open airspace,
• 51:02
  um,
• 51:03
  sees,
• 51:04
  um,
• 51:04
  you know,
• 51:04
  entrepreneurial spirit and whatnot.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: Although there's a bunch of that too in Europe,
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: if you,
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: if you find the right people,
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: there's not the same scale in New Zealand,
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: like space is still a capitally intensive business.
• 51:17
  Like you do need customers early on to verify that your product
• 51:20
  actually works.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's also like a highly strategic, um,
• 51:23
  business like new zealand doesn't have a whole lot of actual
• 51:26
  space operations
• 51:27
  itself so there's not a whole lot you can do there with um the
• 51:30
  new zealand
• 51:30
  government directly as a customer but europe man europe is
• 51:33
  turning on the taps now
• 51:35
  you know nato just recently announced the increasing defense
• 51:38
  spending from 2.5 to 5
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: of gdp which is massive yeah yeah well they they should because the
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they've got problems.
• 51:47
  They've got problems,
• 51:48
  and Arian's boss,
• 51:50
  God bless them,
• 51:53
  could use some help from some newcomers.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then the Dutch, oddly, yes, good at space.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's a company,
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: at least,
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if they've changed their name,
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: was unfortunately named ISIS,
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: that did that.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_02: We're quite good at integrating satellites.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: They have leaned into that.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, we do a bunch of work with them.
• 52:16
  they've like they've how did they lean into the isis the isis
• 52:21
  brand they just fully
• 52:21
  oh they um like i remember when that that happened and um like
• 52:27
  well this must have
• 52:28
  been like 2015 or 16 or something yeah maybe a little later i
• 52:31
  can't remember yeah
• 52:32
  yeah but it was like oh that's all good and then they just kind
• 52:34
  of rolled with it
• 52:35
  and then they're like look any any marketing is good marketing
• 52:38
  no one's gonna
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: forget us now it's like yeah i suppose you're right
• 52:41
  what are they i remember running into them in india so they
• 52:45
  just help build
• 52:46
  satellites or put them on the put them on the rocket i've
• 52:48
  actually got a bunch of
• 52:49
  different businesses but their but their main ones is uh like
• 52:52
  selling um like uh
• 52:55
  like they will sell you launch slots on other vehicles so i
• 52:59
  think they originally
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: did it i hope i'm not misquoting it or misrepresenting but um
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: On PSLV, the Indian launch vehicles.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's where I met them, in Sriharikota on a PSLV launch, yeah.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so they make, like, tons of CubeSat deployers.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's big business for them.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then actually selling,
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: then they did a bunch of components,
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: like radios and whatnot,
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: and now they do full satellites as well.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: How much, so, and obviously...
• 53:28
  This aerospace activity,
• 53:31
  I mean,
• 53:32
  this has to be some knock-on effect from Rocket Lab.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like Dawn is a knock-on effect?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, it's just Rocket Lab doing well.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it must have helped spur on... It's helping everyone.
• 53:45
  But yeah,
• 53:46
  I think it's really just indicative of just this massive macro
• 53:50
  tailwind for space.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's still really early days in the space industry in general,
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: and people are just starting to click on what the...
• 54:00
  the actual core um like that there is a ton of value there and
• 54:05
  we're starting to
• 54:06
  get huge amounts of value out of some particular things like
• 54:08
  you know starlink is
• 54:09
  huge value out of out of broadband internet from space but
• 54:12
  there's tons of other
• 54:13
  things that could be it's kind of like the internet in the
• 54:16
  early days like in the
• 54:17
  90s could like everyone knew it was a big thing but no one
• 54:20
  could quite put their
• 54:20
  finger on what was going to be the big thing like do you know
• 54:23
  is it going to be
• 54:24
  data centers or is it going to be asteroid mining i was about
• 54:26
  to ask you because
• 54:28
  everything i don't know man it's always it's always
• 54:31
  communications and imaging and
• 54:33
  then some weird yeah that's the obvious one related stuff right
• 54:36
  but then this is i
• 54:38
  mean this is a question i ask myself and that i get asked all
• 54:41
  the time right
• 54:42
  because we're about to put up all these thousands upon
• 54:46
  thousands of satellites but
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of that is as you outline is just to like sort of
• 54:51
  almost just have a level communications playing field and then
• 54:55
  some of it imaging.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's always like, wow, this is the internet.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: What's the next big giant thing?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even want to speculate on that.
• 55:04
  The only thing I really hold conviction is that it's going to
• 55:07
  be a big deal.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be a bigger deal next year than it is this year.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's going to continue.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I know they're going to need to get to space.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I know they're going to need to move around in space.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: So hey, we're building rocket motors.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: like to be in the picks and shovels part of this,
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think is the good spot to be at some point,
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: especially for the rocket companies,
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: the money has to keep going.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:31
  But the next realization is that the scale that we're talking
• 55:34
  about is not like 2x
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: or 5x of where we are.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably not even 10x, it's probably closer to 100x.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: So everything kind of breaks.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you've ever built businesses,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: everything breaks at like 3 and 5x or 3 and 10x,
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: depending on who you ask.
• 55:52
  So we see that everything is gonna break as we scale up,
• 55:57
  but we need the scale.
• 55:59
  What precedes scale is reusability,
• 56:03
  and what precedes reusability is reliability.
• 56:05
  Like,
• 56:05
  as in,
• 56:06
  your thing will not be reusable if it breaks one in every
• 56:09
  hundred times.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're never going to get beyond 100 reuses.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're never going to get to scale if it's not a truly reusable system.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, just mass manufacturing shit doesn't work.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's just not...
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: it's not a way to scale the industry 100x.
• 56:23
  Once you get to scale though,
• 56:24
  you start getting statistical significance in what's going on.
• 56:28
  Like obviously,
• 56:29
  if you've reused a thing,
• 56:30
  you've now proven that it works.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you've reused it 100 times,
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: you now understand where all the niche failures happen,
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: like the stuff that's kind of...
• 56:38
  unlikely to happen but does get you every now and then you
• 56:41
  start addressing those
• 56:42
  problems and then you get even more reliable and this this
• 56:45
  actually becomes a
• 56:46
  flywheel you know reliability reusability scalability and
• 56:50
  that's really the common
• 56:51
  thread through everything that we're doing like whether it's on
• 56:53
  the in-space
• 56:54
  propulsion side or the space plane side that drive like that
• 56:57
  cycle drives every bit
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: of dawn
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: on that point,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: we had the space shuttle,
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: which was supposed to be our reusable way to space,
• 57:06
  and then we had this huge gap until SpaceX figured out how to
• 57:10
  land these rockets.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why didn't somebody try what you guys have figured out before?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really good question.
• 57:18
  Like,
• 57:18
  I asked myself,
• 57:20
  why didn't somebody try to do SpaceX in,
• 57:23
  like,
• 57:23
  the 70s?
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, vertical landing is, like,
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: arguably Apollo technology.
• 57:28
  And open cycle locks,
• 57:30
  caro engines,
• 57:30
  and aluminum structures are also not particularly fancy.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: The US military did try.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:37
  I guess the answer is mostly market conditions and incentive
• 57:42
  structures within
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: these large aerospace primes.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: They're just not incentivized to innovate like that.
• 57:49
  And in lots of cases,
• 57:51
  people have sort of said that they've actually been anti-
• 57:54
  innovation like they have intentionally low bid on or like
• 57:59
  taken darpa projects or
• 58:00
  whatever gone three years into them and then they just scuttle
• 58:02
  them because like
• 58:03
  frankly they've got a good business so why would you risk that
• 58:06
  so in what is when
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_02: we're talking about the performance on the space plane versus a jet um
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why is it that you're able to go so much faster?
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's the engine?
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the raw physics of rocket engines.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're using the liquids that we would use...
• 58:27
  just just rocket engines are like you know um a decent rocket
• 58:32
  engine is at least a
• 58:33
  thrust weight ratio of 50 a really good one is like 150 like
• 58:37
  the best jet engines
• 58:38
  are like eight or nine okay like that's just jet engines are
• 58:41
  just huge yeah right
• 58:43
  the and they're not that powerful and they get even less
• 58:46
  powerful as soon as you
• 58:48
  you know gain some altitude while the rocket engine gets more
• 58:50
  efficient as you gain
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: altitude
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: What else did you guys have to figure out to make this work?
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there were a million hard parts,
• 59:00
  but what did you figure out that other people had not really
• 59:04
  looked at to put a
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: rocket engine on a plane and make this work?
• 59:11
  Like a ton of technical stuff and actually figuring out how to
• 59:15
  certify it.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like we always talk about the whole innovation as four parts.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, we used to think it was three.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now we realize it's four.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's the technology, like the reusability.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's the infrastructure that you use.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's how you regulate it.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually the business model as well.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: But if you kind of dive into the technology bit,
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: to understand how to do that properly,
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: you have to understand where you're going to be flying this from.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: Airports, not necessarily space ports.
• 59:44
  How you're going to license it,
• 59:46
  not necessarily as a rocket,
• 59:47
  probably as an aircraft if you can.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then how you're actually going to, like what's the business model?
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're not going to be operating it.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody else is going to be operating it.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: So every element of this is like, the answer is like an aircraft.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's got to be designed like an aircraft engine.
• 1:00:02
  It's got to have safe failure modes like an aircraft engine so
• 1:00:04
  that you can certify it.
• 1:00:06
  It's got to be super reusable and maintainable and whatnot so
• 1:00:08
  you can operate it
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: from an airport and have somebody else do that maintenance.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like these four things factor into every other bit.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're all interrelated.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: Does it have like a parachute or anything?
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_02: What happens if something goes wrong?
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: if you have an engine failure,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: just like an aircraft,
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: what do you do if you have an engine failure in an aircraft?
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: You glide back home and land.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like we've had things go wrong.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: We've had plenty of stuff go wrong.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like we've had engine failures and come back down and landed.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_00: We've had brake failures on the ground.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've had it go through a fence.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: We've had it like,
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: we've smashed the plane up a bit,
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: but you fix it up and fly it again.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of normal for aircraft development, right?
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's kind of a fast, iterative development of aircraft.
• 1:00:57
  And that's where like these many,
• 1:01:00
  many layers of safety save you so often.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because like once you establish...
• 1:01:06
  um like a base level of capability of being able to fly this
• 1:01:09
  thing then you can
• 1:01:10
  start pushing the limits and then you know you maybe push a
• 1:01:12
  limit and you break a
• 1:01:13
  thing but you fall back to that basic level of capability which
• 1:01:17
  is like at least
• 1:01:17
  gliding back home like even if you have an engine failure you
• 1:01:20
  can at least get it
• 1:01:21
  back on the ground and it's not going to end up in the drink or
• 1:01:23
  something how many
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: times can you run the engine
• 1:01:26
  oh uh like it's basically infinitely restartable yeah yeah so
• 1:01:30
  you really are
• 1:01:32
  oklahoma will probably if things go right just be reusing the
• 1:01:36
  one plane over and
• 1:01:37
  over and over yeah i mean like there's parts in it that you
• 1:01:39
  swap out like there's
• 1:01:40
  seals and there's catalyst packs and whatnot that are like
• 1:01:42
  lifed items so like
• 1:01:44
  you'll be refurbishing parts of the engine every five or ten
• 1:01:46
  flights or so but like
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know it's it's a couple of hours to do that work it's not a big deal
• 1:01:51
  And then what,
• 1:01:52
  they get some software package that you guys make to launch it?
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like they'll have a pilot, like we'll train a pilot.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a lot of automation there, but yeah.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: So the whole thing is not automated.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's a pilot that is, yeah, like walk me through the flight process.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, okay.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: So currently we have everything at our HQ in Christchurch.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: We pack it all up into some trailers.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: We drive out to our launch site about an hour south.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: We unpack everything.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: It would usually take six hours or so to unpack everything.
• 1:02:23
  We could fly that day,
• 1:02:26
  but mostly we'd just come back and fly the next day.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: We do basic vehicle checkouts.
• 1:02:31
  It's about an hour or so to do those checkouts and we do
• 1:02:33
  propellant loading.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a couple of hours.
• 1:02:38
  You'd normally then roll it out onto the runway and then you'd
• 1:02:43
  do all your regular
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: traffic calls and whatnot and coordinate with air traffic control.
• 1:02:48
  And then like one time we've been waiting on the runway and we
• 1:02:52
  had to wait for like
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: a Jetstar flight to actually go overhead.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then we pulled in behind them.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: then you kind of like get the go,
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: you count down from 10 and then light it up and Iago,
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: our pilot,
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: flies it.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: it rips down the runway,
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: takes off,
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: pulls up into about a 30 or 40 degree climb and then it just kind of like
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: pulls up and away into about 85 degree climb.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: Through 50,000 feet or so, we get supersonic.
• 1:03:20
  And then on this particular aircraft,
• 1:03:23
  burnouts at about 60 odd thousand feet.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then we coast up to 80,000 feet.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: On the full performance vehicle,
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: we'll have way more propellant on board than a high thrust engine.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: Burnout will be more like about 120,000 or 130,000 feet.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll coast up to over 300,000 feet, like 100 kilometers.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: I should have asked you this sooner.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_02: This is cool.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: But that's pretty exciting.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: But the funny part is, I mean, like once you're...
• 1:03:48
  above 120,000 feet or about 30-ish kilometers,
• 1:03:52
  you're kind of above the effective atmosphere.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's not enough air.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: Even though you're doing Mach 3,
• 1:03:57
  there's just not enough air flowing over the wings for you to
• 1:04:00
  have substantial
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: control anymore.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you're...
• 1:04:05
  for all intents and purposes you're kind of in space at that
• 1:04:07
  point in terms of your
• 1:04:08
  aerodynamics and you have to start controlling the vehicle with
• 1:04:11
  what's called a
• 1:04:12
  reaction control system so it's like little rocket motors in
• 1:04:15
  the um in the
• 1:04:16
  extremities of the of the vehicles on the nose and the wingtips
• 1:04:18
  and whatnot oh so
• 1:04:20
  that's how you control your attitude we call it like direction
• 1:04:24
  they must be pretty
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: small yeah yeah tiny tiny only like about 80 mil long
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, cool.
• 1:04:32
  And the pilot,
• 1:04:33
  like how much of this is automated or when is the pilot
• 1:04:38
  controlling things?
• 1:04:38
  So through our R&D testing,
• 1:04:40
  like it's totally,
• 1:04:42
  call it manually piloted with computer assist.
• 1:04:44
  Like there's computers doing all kinds of like dampening of
• 1:04:48
  like wind and whatnot.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_00: But longer term, this can be pretty much fully autonomous.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: You would think so, right?
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is all automatable.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_02: But in Oklahoma, they'll have a trained pilot or a couple.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: So for certification reasons, that's pretty important to have a pilot.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's just way harder to certify a fully automated vehicle.
• 1:05:10
  But that doesn't mean we don't want to automate stuff because
• 1:05:14
  it does make the life
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: way easier for the pilot,
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're just going to have a more reliable aircraft if more is automated.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do people come out and watch your flights?
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:26
  We have,
• 1:05:27
  I mean,
• 1:05:28
  for now,
• 1:05:28
  friends and family mostly,
• 1:05:29
  but,
• 1:05:30
  um,
• 1:05:30
  yeah,
• 1:05:31
  person comes out.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like is Peter back?
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, does the average New Zealander know him at this point?
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I would say so.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be getting pretty close to like household name territory.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think he'd get recognized on the street?
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, for sure.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_03: He's pretty, pretty, pretty characteristic.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_02: Cause the last time I was there,
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_02: even when I was like in Invercargill where he's from,
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_02: people are like,
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_02: I know Russell Beck,
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_02: his dad.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, Jesus, man, the guy, you know, sent a lot of stuff to space.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_02: It was pretty good.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, maybe people in Auckland know more.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:06:04
  And so,
• 1:06:05
  and what is the next,
• 1:06:07
  what is the next like year look like for you guys?
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_02: What are your hopes and dreams?
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: so we're basically redesigning the vehicle,
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_00: like not to make it bigger or anything,
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: but just to make now the optimal version.
• 1:06:18
  Like that first version was literally the first ground up
• 1:06:21
  vehicle design we had done.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: So now it's about making an optimal version of Aurora.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
• 1:06:26
  it's going to go from a maximum takeoff weight of about 250
• 1:06:29
  kilograms up to 400-ish
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: high thrust engine.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, takes us from 25 kilometers altitude up to over 100.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_02: Are there any,
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_02: we're in this phase where there seem to be,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_02: it's like from the first batch of rocket startups,
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_02: some went by the wayside and the survivors went on.
• 1:06:50
  And then we actually have kind of like this second wave of some
• 1:06:54
  people trying to do
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: things a little bit differently.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, when you look out into...
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: both kinetic launch and rocket startup land.
• 1:07:02
  Does anyone catch your attention as having sort of like an
• 1:07:05
  interesting approach?
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't mean it has to like totally work just as like caught your eye.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we're just,
• 1:07:14
  I'm paying less and less attention to that world because I feel
• 1:07:17
  like we're more and
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_00: more in the aircraft world.
• 1:07:20
  I guess I'm paying more attention to the Strato launches and
• 1:07:24
  the Hermes and Venus
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: is an interesting company in lots of ways too.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: Which one's Venus?
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:07:34
  Venus has been building a rotation detonation engine for use on
• 1:07:38
  hypersonic vehicles
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: and whatnot.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because I just feel like there's so much
• 1:07:44
  energy momentum in that particular industry,
• 1:07:47
  even more so than space specifically.
• 1:07:51
  Did you hear about all these EOs that came out from Trump about
• 1:07:58
  abolishing the ban
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: on supersonic flight over land?
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the EO on...
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_00: like drone dominance as well,
• 1:08:07
  like about bringing through a whole bunch of like new licensing
• 1:08:10
  for EV toll
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: aircraft and like unmanned aerial systems,
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: like getting that stuff pushed through FAA.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's way more important for my world.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's huge because like we've,
• 1:08:22
  so much of that is what we have done in New Zealand already
• 1:08:26
  that's about bringing
• 1:08:28
  rockets to a truly aircraft world and that totally speaks to
• 1:08:31
  that it's like when
• 1:08:32
  that well then all that stuff came out it was like shit we've
• 1:08:35
  done all that and
• 1:08:36
  this is a clear signal that you know there's a need for this in
• 1:08:41
  the US so we can
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_00: bring all this to the US now
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_02: So you mean,
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_02: when you say we've done all that,
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_02: you mean,
• 1:08:45
  are you saying like the New Zealand regulatory bodies have
• 1:08:50
  already paved the way
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_02: for all?
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because of you guys and because of some other.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think we're one of the only companies in the world to have
• 1:09:01
  Like a UAV that's licensed to fly beyond line of sight,
• 1:09:06
  above 60,000 feet at supersonic speeds.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's actually no limit to speed under our certification.
• 1:09:12
  So like,
• 1:09:13
  yeah,
• 1:09:13
  we've pushed the boat way out and we've already done all this
• 1:09:17
  stuff.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like we've shown that we can integrate with other airspace users.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like we don't have danger zones and whatnot.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:09:22
  where we're flying like we we've done this in uncontrolled
• 1:09:26
  airspace so you know you
• 1:09:28
  know like i said the um the story where there was a jet star
• 1:09:31
  flight flying overhead
• 1:09:32
  and we had to like wait for them to clear and then we took off
• 1:09:35
  and and flew and
• 1:09:36
  like we cut through the airspace where they just were at like
• 1:09:39
  500 knots of of a
• 1:09:42
  cent speed like and that was all it was it was all fine and
• 1:09:45
  yeah yeah everyone knew
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_02: what was gonna does oklahoma have to do anything special still to
• 1:09:50
  Yeah,
• 1:09:51
  so we'll have to license in the States,
• 1:09:52
  obviously,
• 1:09:53
  to be able to fly there.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's still,
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:09:56
  we still have to figure out exactly how this is going to be
• 1:09:58
  licensed in the States.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_00: But so much of what we've done in New Zealand has proven,
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: that path and,
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: lots of the certification basis,
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:10:06
  lots of the methods for establishing that what we're doing is
• 1:10:09
  safe are FAA standard
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_00: methods for assessing that.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: it won't be a one-to-one translation,
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_00: having set a lot of precedents in New Zealand should help us a bunch.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, and, you know, these EOs, um, certainly help a whole bunch as well.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_02: It seemed like boom kind of talks Trump and pushing the supersonic away.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Blake was quick.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think Trump was in office for like a couple of hours.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_02: He was, he was on top of that.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then, uh,
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_02: eVTOL stuff,
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: it's pretty crazy because if you look at like Joby and Archer,
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think they're going to fly,
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_02: even though they're all made here,
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_02: they're going to fly in Dubai before they fly in the United States.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then,
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_02: we just did a piece on zipline,
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_02: which was like designed,
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_02: actually manufactured in San Francisco.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then mostly flown in Rwanda or something.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_02: they used to fly in Rwanda and then now in the States,
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_02: they're doing tests in Arkansas and Dallas and like,
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_02: we can't fly them in California and,
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_02: California,
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_02: God bless.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_02: We really are getting self-defeating at some point when,
• 1:11:16
  when you have a company that is manufacturing stuff in South
• 1:11:21
  San Francisco.
• 1:11:22
  I mean,
• 1:11:22
  I went there and saw it with my own eyes and we still,
• 1:11:26
  you can't even fly here.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, the eVTOL stuff, um,
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_02: God, we've spent hundreds of millions, billions of dollars of U.S.
• 1:11:35
  capital all these years of innovation,
• 1:11:38
  and then I'm sure it's going to fly first in Dubai.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm pretty positive about the outlook there.
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think once these technologies demonstrate that they truly are
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_00: transformational and way,
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_00: way better,
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_00: then usually the world finds a way to make it happen.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the places where you can extract the most value out of those things,
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_00: like where there is the most good to be done,
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_00: like we'll figure out a way.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like Oklahoma might be the first,
• 1:12:04
  but they definitely won't be the last to have one of our rocket
• 1:12:08
  power aircraft in
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_00: the States.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:12:10
  um stefan um i feel like you're meant to be here because the i
• 1:12:17
  your first name i i
• 1:12:18
  had to i watched like 12 interviews just to make sure i said it
• 1:12:23
  right to find you
• 1:12:24
  introducing yourself because everybody else seems to get your
• 1:12:27
  your first name wrong
• 1:12:28
  but we have we have stefan we have stefan curry you got it yeah
• 1:12:32
  nice yeah yeah yeah
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_02: true yeah so this is this we've come to the right place
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_02: um, thank you so much for coming and spending time with us.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_02: And do we, did we have two elements of show and tell?
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_02: No, it was the two parts of the plane.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_02: There was the top.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to make sure we, uh, we got to everything.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, thank you so much.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's so fascinating what you guys are doing.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so glad, uh,
• 1:12:56
  to see it's all going so well and and i know we've been talking
• 1:13:00
  for a long time now
• 1:13:01
  i mean i'm going to come out we're going to do a new zealand
• 1:13:04
  it's been so new
• 1:13:04
  zealand was the we shot a pilot of hello world in sweden and
• 1:13:09
  then new zealand was
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_02: our first episode that we shot
• 1:13:12
  kind of like once we'd committed to doing this tv series and
• 1:13:15
  that was like eight
• 1:13:16
  years ago yeah and then since then there's so many fascinating
• 1:13:22
  startups and then
• 1:13:23
  also we didn't even talk about but new zealand is like it's
• 1:13:26
  like the test place for
• 1:13:28
  both software and hardware all these these internet companies
• 1:13:31
  yeah yeah because you
• 1:13:32
  have this contained english-speaking population if like
• 1:13:35
  linkedin or google has a
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_00: new feature oh man we're like becoming the world's sandbox yeah
• 1:13:41
  and then i see every time somebody has a flying car or
• 1:13:44
  something yeah whiskers out
• 1:13:46
  there yeah i guess in the on the hardware part it's just
• 1:13:49
  because you can be a
• 1:13:50
  little more remote and and and yeah so so specifically for us
• 1:13:56
  like it's yeah it's
• 1:13:57
  having a range that's like a essentially a hypersonic test
• 1:13:59
  range an hour south of
• 1:14:00
  where we um build them like that's you know the u.s goes to
• 1:14:04
  like guam or australia
• 1:14:05
  mostly or like you know flies basically in rocket ranges like
• 1:14:08
  off vandenberg or
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_00: whatnot yeah
• 1:14:10
  so like that's way harder than we have it yeah yeah okay so i
• 1:14:14
  have to i want to get
• 1:14:15
  out there i um i miss christ church and um all right and then
• 1:14:20
  we'll go so we'll
• 1:14:21
  come out and we'll do an episode of the show and then so we
• 1:14:24
  could come we could
• 1:14:25
  come see a flight yeah yeah of course okay all right well we'll
• 1:14:28
  do it thank you so
• 1:14:29
  much for coming in the studio i really appreciate it yeah no
• 1:14:32
  thanks for having me
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_00: on it's been good
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Core Memory is hosted by me, Ashley Vance.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_02: The show is produced by David Nicholson and me.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Our theme music is by James Mercer and John Sortland.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_02: And the show is edited by the John Sortland.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you all for listening.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_02: As mentioned, the show is sponsored by Yuan Ventures.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.