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Jocelyn Jones on How to Start Your Ministry · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
0:13
21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
0:36
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren
0:46
Richmond, Jr. Welcomes the Reverend Jocelyn Jones to
0:49
the program. Reverend Jocelyn is an author,
0:52
speaker, and entrepreneur. Jocelyn's background
0:55
as a journalist, executive director of a
0:58
nonprofit, and community leader allows her
1:00
to connect with people from all walks of life.
1:03
She received her bachelor's degree from the University of
1:06
Iowa in journalism. After receiving her
1:09
B.A. she earned her master's degree in social work and
1:12
her master's degree in theological studies.
1:14
Jocelyn published her first book in 2019
1:17
called Breaking the Power of the Mask.
1:20
Jocelyn is an ordained minister and the president
1:23
of Faith on the Journey, a Christian counseling
1:26
company specializing in grief and trauma.
1:29
She is a master facilitator with the Trauma
1:32
Healing Institute and the founder of
1:35
the Women in the Ministry, which helps women to
1:38
start, grow, and sustain transformative
1:40
ministries that change the world. A
1:43
reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please take
1:46
a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
1:49
review, and share Future Christian with a friend.
1:52
Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian
1:55
on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh,
1:58
laurensonatemediapro
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uh.com
2:02
with comments, questions, or ideas for
2:04
future episodes. We appreciate your
2:07
voice in how we faithfully discern the future of
2:10
the church.
2:20
>> Loren: Okay. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren
2:22
Richmond Jr. And today I am pleased to
2:25
be joined by Reverend Jocelyn Jones. Hello and thanks
2:28
for being here.
2:29
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Thanks for having me, Loren. I'm excited to be here with you today.
2:34
>> Loren: Yeah, great, great, great. Uh, looking forward to this
2:36
conversation. Share if you would, just a little bit about your
2:39
faith background, your story, what that looks like in
2:42
the past and what that looks like today.
2:45
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Yeah, well, I grew up attending
2:48
a Catholic church. And so from
2:51
a little girl, I was around religion,
2:54
but I didn't fully understand, you know, you just kind of go
2:57
through the motions, right? And so that was, for
2:59
me, grade, uh, school, high school. But it wasn't until I
3:02
went to college, I was on a big ten
3:05
campus and Campus Crusade for Christ
3:08
was present. And so they introduced me
3:11
to this thing Called relationship with God. And
3:14
then I also found a church home while I was
3:17
in college that I attended over summer breaks.
3:20
Now in college, there's a lot of temptation. There's a lot going on.
3:23
So I wasn't really serious about my walk in
3:25
college, but after I graduated,
3:28
I was like, no, for real, I want to do this thing. And
3:31
so I actually found a church home and
3:34
began this journey of really discovering
3:37
what a relationship was like. And for years
3:40
it vacillated between religion and relationship.
3:43
But over the years, I've discovered that there's such a
3:46
big difference. And so I've
3:49
been growing in this journey with my
3:52
walk with God over many, many years.
3:55
>> Loren: That's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I gotta ask, can
3:58
you share which.
3:59
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Big ten camp is University of Iowa?
4:02
I'm a Hawkeye.
4:03
>> Loren: Okay. I have some, uh, have a good friend from
4:06
Iowa. So I guess go Hawkeyes. Right?
4:09
>> Rev. Jocelyn: All right. Right, right.
4:12
>> Loren: Uh, and I didn't ask you. I'm sorry, I'm out of
4:15
sync today. Anything else you want listeners to know about
4:18
you? Uh, that it's not in your bio, I
4:20
suppose.
4:22
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Uh, so there's, there's a number of things that are not in my bio. I
4:25
think the bio talks about your highlight reel.
4:28
But I think it's also important to
4:30
recognize the moments in your life that aren't
4:33
celebratory, but you survived. And so for me, I'm a
4:36
trauma survivor. I've experienced sexual trauma
4:39
and domestic violence. I've also
4:42
gone through a challenge of divorce. And
4:45
that's something that I never thought I would go through.
4:48
And so those are some moments in my life that were
4:51
major crossroads. But God has
4:54
been so good to me, sustaining me through those
4:57
moments and helping me to heal through community,
5:00
through the work, through my faith. And
5:03
so I think that's important because it gives context as to
5:06
why I'm passionate about the work that I do in
5:08
ministry.
5:10
>> Loren: Yeah. Let me, let me ask this, if I
5:13
may, if you're willing to share.
5:15
Obviously,
5:18
I've never experienced, uh, some of the things that you've
5:20
experienced, and there are countless others who have
5:23
similar tragedy and trauma experiences in the life. I'm
5:26
curious if you're willing to share just some elements
5:29
of faith practices that have
5:32
sustained you or been nourishing to you as
5:34
you've processed that challenges
5:37
M. Mhm.
5:39
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Yes. I wish I could say, Loren, I started
5:42
off the right way in trying to manage some of these
5:45
things. I think that oftentimes we cope the
5:47
best way we know how to
5:50
survive. So when I first experienced
5:52
sexual trauma in my early 20s. What I
5:55
did was actually I threw myself into ministry.
5:58
I threw myself into work, which is interesting
6:01
because that's celebrated when you like overwork
6:04
yourself and just keep yourself busy. And
6:07
I didn't realize I was just trying to run from my pain because the
6:10
silence can be so loud when you don't want to be
6:13
alone with your thoughts.
6:14
>> Loren: Mhm.
6:15
>> Rev. Jocelyn: So for me, I pretended and wore this mask
6:17
for many years. And it wasn't until I
6:20
realized how it was impacting my relationships
6:23
and how I was struggling with like being able to let
6:26
anyone in beyond just like superficial level
6:29
that I was like, I need help because I'm self
6:31
sabotaging. And so in my early 30s,
6:34
that's when I really said, okay, I need to start seeing a
6:37
counselor. I. I need to begin working with
6:40
someone. So therapy was one of my
6:43
first steps in dealing with that. And I was in
6:45
and out of that for some years. Now I'm
6:48
regularly working through therapy because I realized
6:51
that healing takes time. It's a
6:54
process. And so that was one element of
6:56
it. Another element of my journey was
6:59
really educating myself around different
7:02
healing practices that integrate my
7:05
faith. Right. So I was
7:08
introduced to the Trauma Healing
7:10
Institute, which uses Bible and
7:13
mental health principles to create this small
7:16
group Bible study to help people heal from trauma.
7:20
And when I went through this process, I'm like,
7:23
this is amazing because it combines
7:25
my faith with mental health principles to
7:28
create community so we can begin to heal.
7:31
So I went through that process and then became a
7:34
facilitator with the Trauma Healing Institute to start leading
7:37
groups for others. And I discovered along the
7:40
way that when we are able to find safe
7:42
spaces to share our sacred story, to be
7:45
known and loved and not judged, and we begin
7:48
to face the stuff that we've been running
7:51
from, we can begin to
7:53
heal. I lament, Loren, on
7:56
how many times I have
7:59
interacted with individuals who have been
8:02
carrying their trauma for years.
8:05
I did a healing group about
8:08
two, three weeks ago and there were women in
8:11
the group who were 60, 70 years old
8:14
who were still carrying stuff from when they were
8:17
six because they never talked about it.
8:20
>> Loren: Yeah.
8:20
>> Rev. Jocelyn: And so that's something I want to share with your listeners.
8:23
That it's this misnomer that time heals
8:26
all wounds. If you leave it up to time
8:29
alone without ever dealing with your
8:31
stuff, you are going to carry that with
8:34
you.
8:35
>> Loren: Well, this is good stuff and it's not necessarily what we're here to
8:38
talk about, but I appreciate you sharing that. I'm
8:41
just I'm still kind of thinking
8:44
about even the beginning of that story, about
8:46
how I think this is the challenge. Right. And
8:49
especially in ministry, is that
8:52
it's. It's so hard where
8:57
overworking yourself, like you said, can be
8:59
seen as a good thing. And often
9:03
these practices, they can be
9:05
rewarded for being not healthy.
9:08
Um, Reverend Jocelyn is the author of the book
9:11
Sister Start yout A Guide to Start,
9:13
Grow and Sustain a Transformative
9:16
Ministry. Why don't you share about kind of what inspired the book?
9:20
>> Rev. Jocelyn: For sure. So I decided to write
9:22
this book because I remember when I
9:25
first felt called to start my. My own ministry
9:28
and I had a lot of questions.
9:31
I lacked clarity. I wasn't sure which direction to
9:34
go in. And I was looking for the book that I
9:37
eventually wrote several years later.
9:39
>> Loren: I've heard that before. Right. Sometimes folks have to write the book they
9:42
need to read.
9:43
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Right, Exactly. That's really what it was.
9:46
Because I think it's relevant, actually, Loren, that I talked a
9:49
little bit about my backstory around trauma healing, because that's
9:52
my initial ministry. I created a Christian
9:55
trauma healing ministry. We do counseling, we do groups across the
9:58
country. But it didn't just happen like that.
10:01
And so in this book, I talked about the
10:03
process of actually stepping out and answering
10:06
the call to ministry beyond the walls of the
10:09
church. Many times we're familiar with
10:12
ministry within the context of our sisterhood ministry, our, uh,
10:15
ushers ministry, or maybe international ministry as
10:17
well. But what if we're called to create a
10:20
parachurch ministry because the church is not
10:23
just the walls?
10:24
>> Loren: Mhm.
10:25
>> Rev. Jocelyn: And some of us are called to go out and start one. But there's an
10:27
element of entrepreneurship, if
10:30
you will, that people need to be aware of. There's
10:33
different, uh, elements in terms of really getting
10:36
yourself out there, getting your framework that I
10:39
didn't have clarity about. I didn't have mentorship to help me
10:41
with that. And so that is something that I wanted to provide
10:44
to other women in particular, because
10:48
there's also, Loren, unfortunately, certain
10:50
dynamics for women who are called to ministry that we also have
10:53
to uniquely overcome. And you're shaking your head because I think you know
10:56
what I'm talking about.
10:58
>> Loren: Well, I'm fortunate not to have to experience them
11:00
firsthand. But I'm thinking of, you know, the,
11:03
the women I know in ministry who've
11:06
shared their stories with me. I mean, I think I'm remembering.
11:09
I think in your book, right, you talk about, was it
11:12
a seminary, some kind of post, some kind of
11:14
educational experience where the fact that you are pursuing
11:17
Ordination really made you
11:20
Persona non grata, right?
11:22
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Mm mhm. Mm, mhm. I think you're talking about
11:25
when I was pursuing my, uh,
11:28
biblical counseling certification and
11:31
I went through this whole process for over a year, uh,
11:33
submitted my application, submitted this 40 page
11:36
paper, and they did not even consider
11:39
my test or exam because they did not believe in
11:42
women being ordained. And that was, for me, it was a
11:45
crushing moment because, oh, I can only imagine.
11:47
Yeah, I, I felt, quote unquote,
11:50
at the time that I wasted my time. Nothing's wasted,
11:53
we know, in God's economy. But it was difficult because
11:56
it's like, wait, just because I'm a woman, that's. You just.
11:59
You're not considering this, you know, and so
12:02
it was a life lesson around. First, you have to
12:05
do your due diligence on who you are
12:08
attempting to align yourself with when you are
12:11
stepping out and doing anything. But
12:14
also I had to take that moment and
12:17
say, well, are you just going to just
12:20
like lick your wounds and feel bad about yourself in this
12:22
moment, or are you going to pivot and do something
12:25
different? And I did something different. I started my
12:28
own practice as a result. But, uh,
12:31
I share that story to say there's
12:34
countless stories of women who are denied
12:36
positions, who are overlooked opportunities, who
12:39
are told that they should not preach, they should
12:42
not lead. I, I get sometimes hate messages
12:45
on social media for the work that I do because they're saying
12:48
I'm speaking, um, blasphemy. So
12:51
it's a thing that we have to deal with as
12:53
women who are called to lead.
12:56
>> Loren: Wow, I'm so sorry. Uh,
12:58
again, I'm in a position where that's not something I have to deal
13:01
with firsthand. So I'm sorry you have to deal with that.
13:04
And I'm thankful that you've been able to
13:07
persevere. Uh, I wrote this down
13:10
here. I'm really appreciative of this
13:13
quote that you said, nothing is ever wasted in God's economy.
13:16
And I'm just thinking about how devastated I would have
13:19
been if I'd have gotten through a similar
13:21
situation. You write in the book that
13:24
we are more than what people have said about
13:27
us. You and your ministry are more than what people have said
13:30
about you. You obviously
13:33
in that experience, if I can
13:36
extrapolate, like
13:39
you were an experience where people said about you, you were
13:42
not cut out to be a clergy
13:45
person. You are not.
13:48
I mean, uh, talk more
13:50
about,
13:53
talk more about that and I'll listen here because I think
13:56
I've succumbed to that even myself. And
13:59
I know folks
14:02
listening as well, who we can
14:04
get trapped in that. What
14:07
are people saying about me? What do people say about my
14:10
ministry? Um, and
14:12
you've had to overcome that firsthand, so share more about that, if
14:15
you're willing.
14:16
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Yes. I still have
14:19
to work through that. Sometimes. There's this
14:22
deep desire, I think, that many of us struggle with, to be
14:25
accepted, to be loved. And putting
14:28
ourselves out there and being vulnerable and
14:31
answering this call, uh, we can.
14:34
We're going to have resistance. We're not meant for everyone. We're
14:37
not everyone's person. And
14:39
understanding that there are certain
14:42
people who we are called to, who
14:45
you can uniquely reach, Loren. There's people that you
14:48
can only reach that I can't reach, and vice versa.
14:51
And so, uh, with that understanding, we have
14:54
to understand that we can't
14:57
deny the people who we are called to for the sake of the people
15:00
who are going to hate on us anyway. Like, there's
15:03
going to be people who are going to see hatred. They're going
15:06
to say all these negative things, and a lot of times they're
15:08
projecting their own insecurities, their own
15:11
fears, their own limited mindsets onto
15:14
you, and it has nothing to do with you. They don't
15:17
even know you yet. They are
15:19
judging. And they don't have, um,
15:22
the. They sometimes don't even have
15:25
the courage to step out and do the work that you're
15:28
doing, yet they still criticize. That's their issue.
15:31
But I've learned that I can't
15:34
let these people stop me from
15:37
the mission that God has given
15:39
me. And I'm not sure if this is
15:42
directly answering your question. I feel like I kind of got passionate
15:45
when.
15:46
>> Loren: That's okay, that's okay.
15:48
>> Rev. Jocelyn: But that's where I'm at, Loren,
15:51
because at the end of the day, I'm on assignment,
15:54
just like you. Even with this work, with your podcast,
15:57
you're on assignment here. So we
16:00
can't get lost in the fact that people will love
16:03
you one day and hate you another. We see that
16:06
with our savior, Jesus Christ. You know, on Palm
16:08
Sunday, they celebrating. On Friday, they was
16:11
yelling crucified. People do that
16:13
sometimes. But at the end of the day, we have one
16:16
person who we need affirmation from, and that's
16:19
God. And outside of that, people,
16:22
you know, they'll fall in line.
16:26
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, this is good. So let me ask.
16:28
And this again gets back to your point about nothing ever
16:31
being wasted in God's economy. You
16:34
write about how what
16:37
we perceive as failure can still
16:40
be used by God and Let me speak here
16:43
just from my own context. Like, I am
16:46
someone who let a new church start
16:49
that did not make it through Covid. So when
16:52
I say, like, firsthand, like, I know,
16:54
I know failure, and it sucks, if I can
16:57
be brutally honest.
16:59
>> Rev. Jocelyn: I know.
17:00
>> Loren: So, uh, I mean, I think that has been
17:03
the hardest thing for me to get
17:07
my head around, my spirit around, is that,
17:10
you know, talk more about
17:12
why what we define as
17:15
failure should not be seen in that
17:18
way.
17:19
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Yeah, I appreciate your authenticity around that, Loren,
17:22
because sometimes we do over spiritualize the fact that
17:25
sometimes the stuff we go through just sucks.
17:28
And we. And we have to name the pain
17:30
around that because it doesn't feel good to suffer, it doesn't
17:33
feel good to fail. And
17:36
yet with that, when
17:39
I look back at major turning points
17:42
in my life, I've
17:45
experienced tremendous growth from
17:47
it. And I've also seen
17:50
God's hand in it. Now, here is the
17:53
thing, though. When we go through certain
17:56
events where we would describe it as a failure,
17:59
there's a choice in this. Sometimes
18:02
we can look at it and say, this
18:05
failure is a reflection of me. And this is
18:08
where we mess up. Because we take these failures.
18:10
>> Loren: I'm listening.
18:11
>> Rev. Jocelyn: We take these failures personal
18:14
and we take it on as our
18:16
identity, as it relates to our value.
18:19
But our value is not rooted in our
18:21
accomplishments. That's not who we
18:24
are. This is something where it didn't work out
18:27
quite how we wanted it to work out. We.
18:30
In your case of the story you shared, you were being obedient
18:33
to God. Um, let's face it, Loren, you had nothing to
18:36
do with this whole pandemic situation, Right? Like, you
18:39
couldn't control this, you know? But
18:42
yet, and still, like we sometimes question,
18:44
I could have done more. I should have done this. I should. When certain
18:47
things are out of our control. But what was the
18:50
beauty that came from the process that you
18:53
went through, the people who you touched, the connections you made,
18:56
the lessons that you learned, the growth
18:59
that can come from that. You take that with you.
19:02
Just like going back to the story of me being denied
19:05
the certification through the biblical counseling. If I said
19:08
that was wasted, that's a lie. For a year, I
19:11
learned all this information. You can't take that
19:14
away from me. The lessons you can't take
19:17
away. And we understand that from
19:19
certain things that we go through. Even I, uh, talk about
19:22
trauma. There's a thing called post traumatic
19:25
growth. You can
19:28
grow outside of the events that you've
19:31
gone through. If you do the work. It's about
19:33
framing, it's about learning, it's about getting the
19:36
support. But I think going back to your original
19:38
questions, failures don't define your
19:41
value, just like success. And this
19:44
is kind of a paradigm shift, right? Like I think we can mess
19:47
up when we get so caught up on our high horse
19:50
around our accomplishments, establishing our
19:53
value, because when those things are taken away from
19:56
us, then we're setting ourselves up for
19:59
a crash. So I think if we are able
20:02
to know our value in Christ and
20:04
say that again, going back to what I said earlier,
20:07
I'm being obedient to God. If this, if
20:10
this thing falls through God, the
20:13
results are up to you. I'm doing what I'm doing to
20:16
be faithful to you. And that's how you
20:19
navigate the failures of life.
20:21
>> Loren: Yeah, I think it's. Forgive me if
20:24
this is too,
20:26
um. What am I trying to say,
20:29
but I'm just thinking like, uh, you know, the joke's kind of on
20:31
them. Like you got the training and you're doing the work, so
20:35
the jokes on them because.
20:38
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Exactly.
20:41
>> Loren: Um, I think this kind of
20:44
relates here. You talk about this in your
20:47
book too, about the importance of God being our
20:50
guide, not ourselves. And
20:53
again, I'll kind of just speak from my own experience. I think it is kind of easy to
20:56
get lost in the
20:58
process. The energy, the momentum, what
21:01
have you of a new endeavor.
21:05
How do you keep yourself centered? How
21:08
do you advise those you're working with to keep
21:11
themselves centered and focused on God? Because
21:14
again, when there's. We kind of have a culture that's
21:17
really excited about new. Anything new gets really
21:20
a lot of momentum, excitement around it. And sometimes it's hard
21:23
to decipher between what is just like
21:26
cultural people excitement versus what God really
21:29
wants to do.
21:31
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Mm mhm. I
21:34
think Loren, is a couple things. First, it's around
21:37
the people who are around us.
21:39
It makes a difference. Yeah, you have to surround yourself
21:42
with wise counsel. One of the things I
21:45
teach people is when we think about a
21:48
nonprofit, they have a board of
21:50
directors to advise them to
21:53
make sure that they're staying on the right path, to raise funds and all
21:56
that stuff. Who is on the board of directors of your
21:59
life? Who are the people who are
22:02
going to pull your coattail when they're
22:05
seeing you starting to lose yourself
22:08
in ministry? Who are the people who are going to
22:11
pray for you and not just say they're going to pray for
22:14
you? You know what I'm talking about? No, they actually
22:17
do intercede and undergird you in
22:19
prayer and who create that space
22:22
to call you up, to
22:25
help you to rise into your crown. That
22:28
is essential. And I've learned that along the years
22:31
that I have to have people around me to keep me
22:33
steady because I believe that there
22:36
are a number of people who start off in ministry with wonderful
22:39
intentions, God centered intentions.
22:42
But it's easy to lose yourself, Loren, in this
22:45
work because God has given
22:48
us wonderful gifts and we can start
22:51
leaning into the gifts that came from God
22:54
and thinking that that's coming from our own strength. And
22:57
we start making the focus about us versus who
23:00
we started this ministry for, to glorify in the first
23:02
place. I talked and I uh, warned sisters who I uh,
23:05
coach in ministry saying, hey, we have to be
23:08
careful not to be doing work for
23:11
God without God because you
23:13
can easily fall into that trap and
23:16
start going through the motions. You can pray and
23:19
do say all the things and scream out
23:22
scriptures, but your relationship with God could be at
23:25
a deficit. And so we have to guard
23:28
against that and we have to prioritize our
23:31
spiritual practices to make sure that we are
23:33
operating in the spirit and not the flesh.
23:37
>> Loren: Yeah, that's so important.
23:40
I mean, I can't help but think too, uh, I remember
23:43
many years ago when I was in Bible college,
23:47
there was young men who,
23:49
they could kind of just ride the coattails of their
23:52
good story. And it wasn't even like,
23:55
you know, they had a good conversion story or
23:58
transformation story that they could kind of ride and they didn't really
24:01
have to stay faithful and humble. And I remember
24:04
kind of being
24:07
kind of shocked when I remember, you know, someone who
24:10
I looked at as, you know, who was an
24:13
upperclassman to me and someone who I looked at as
24:15
a spiritual leader or mentor kind of admitted to me like he had just been kind
24:18
of like riding the coach. Tales of a good testimony,
24:21
not staying faithful, listening.
24:26
So I appreciate that.
24:28
Mhm.
24:32
Um, let me shift gears here. We've kind of been really
24:35
talking theological,
24:38
philosophical or big picture. Let's
24:41
dive down into some real nitty gritty because I think
24:44
this is something that I thought was really the other side
24:47
that was real helpful about your book. When you're,
24:50
when we're, when we're thinking about someone who's starting a new
24:52
ministry.
24:55
You talk about the importance of.
24:59
You use these words. I won't. These are your words.
25:02
Selling your ministry or your idea. And uh, again I want
25:05
to frame it from this context. In church
25:08
spaces, in Christian spaces like that,
25:11
selling idea can be seen as a dirty word. And
25:14
certainly we all know marketers and salespeople who
25:17
are icky and gross. Talk about
25:20
why it's important to really
25:22
share passionately what you feel like
25:25
you've been called to.
25:27
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Mhm. I love this question, Loren, because you're
25:30
right. I think that the word sell sounds so
25:33
taboo. It sounds icky to people. But I learned
25:35
this even before starting my own ministry. I was an
25:38
executive director of a nonprofit for almost
25:41
10 years. And I had to
25:44
learn that in order for me to get
25:47
funding for these children so we can do
25:50
this work, I had to sell
25:53
funders, donors on the fact
25:55
that this is the place where you need to give your
25:58
money. And using some of the same
26:01
skills from uh, another life, I used to sell insurance.
26:04
I had to use those same skills to be able to
26:07
tell the story and convince people that
26:10
this work is good and this is a
26:13
place where you can invest your
26:15
resources. We will be a good steward
26:18
over these resources to bear fruit, to do
26:21
great godly things. And so the
26:24
skills are very transferable from
26:27
selling insurance to selling the vision for a
26:29
nonprofit, to selling, quote unquote,
26:32
your ministry. Because at the end of the day,
26:36
what you are doing is conveying a message to
26:38
people that what we have to offer you
26:42
from a place of service.
26:43
>> Loren: Mhm.
26:44
>> Rev. Jocelyn: That's the thing, that's the difference, the motive. I
26:47
know that what I have to offer is helping
26:49
people. My motive is not to cause harm, it's to make
26:52
a difference. And for some people,
26:55
for example, going back to my nonprofit story,
26:58
I knew that there were donors who weren't going to
27:01
necessarily be in the trenches doing the work every day. But
27:04
uh, they wanted to find a place to steward
27:07
their money, to make a difference. So I'm helping
27:10
you by showing you that this is a place where we're
27:12
responsible, we can make that difference that you desire to make.
27:15
And it's a relationship there based on trust, based on
27:18
integrity. So when we're doing the work of the
27:21
Lord and we a, might need
27:23
resources to raise capital or we
27:26
are providing a service with integrity
27:29
to help people, we're doing them a, uh,
27:32
disservice if we're not vocal about the fact that we
27:35
have this to offer to, to serve the
27:38
world, right? And I tell people it's not a good thing
27:41
to be in the witness protection program about your
27:44
ministry. Like we can't do that
27:46
because it's denying us the ability to
27:49
help others. So as long as your motives are
27:52
pure, you know, you are, uh, coming from a place
27:55
of service and you're offering something
27:58
that's quality, then yes, Be bold about that.
28:01
The more the better. And those who you're not for, they
28:04
won't, they won't, you know, be in your ecosystem
28:06
anyway. But some people are praying for your
28:09
ministry. You are the answer that God is
28:12
using. And so people need to know about you.
28:15
And that's the whole point of that. Loren.
28:17
>> Loren: Yeah, that's really good. Let me ask this
28:19
too, because I think it's related.
28:22
Something that I struggle with, and I know many
28:25
other folks that I've run into in
28:28
these kind of spaces struggle with is like
28:31
compensating yourself adequately,
28:34
like. And uh, again, I hate to say, like
28:37
to use the language, like billing appropriately. How do
28:40
you coach, you know, upcoming
28:43
leaders to like really adequately
28:46
compensate or bill for their time? Because I
28:49
feel like I, I make this mistake over and over
28:52
again myself.
28:54
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Oh, such good questions, Loren. This is a
28:56
struggle, right, for a number of reasons, because
28:59
many of us, we have worked in the church for years.
29:02
Most of the stuff we do is volunteer based, right? So we got
29:05
that going then. For the women who I work with,
29:08
sometimes we see this even in the corporate
29:10
arena, we are often underpaid or we struggle to
29:14
assert ourselves in terms of our needs. So we have all these
29:17
dynamics going on. And I had
29:20
to learn that when we are offering a
29:23
quality service, just because we
29:26
are Christian does not mean that
29:29
we don't get compensated fairly for this. Because
29:32
I can't go to the people who I got my
29:35
mortgage from and say, hey, yeah, I can't pay this
29:37
mortgage this month because they're gonna be like, uh, yeah,
29:40
that sounds like a personal problem. You know, like. And
29:43
so when it comes to this, I believe
29:46
that if you are offering, say, for
29:49
instance, I teach on domestic violence and I'm a
29:52
speaker. If I'm going to do a keynote on
29:55
this topic, the fact that I'm Christian,
29:58
or if I was someone who was doing this from a secular
30:00
standpoint, I still should be compensated for that because
30:03
I'm bringing a level of expertise. I've done the
30:06
work. And so for
30:09
many of them, um, many people who I work with, I have
30:12
to first remind them of the value
30:15
that they bring to the table. Um, your
30:18
education, your years of experience, the lessons that
30:21
you've learned, the quality and expertise
30:24
is not diminished because of your faith. Now,
30:27
yes, there's certain things that I do as a
30:29
volunteer and I'm, I'm led by the spirit in
30:32
terms of what I will give my back my time for, because I do believe
30:35
in that. But I also think that you should
30:38
be Fairly compensated for the services that you offer
30:41
in the marketplace. And, uh, over time,
30:44
your confidence to charge more will
30:47
increase. And the last thing I'll say about
30:50
this, Loren, is money is a
30:53
resource. It's not the source. It's a
30:55
resource. And if we
30:58
look at it like that, we are not making money in
31:01
Idol. That's not the thing.
31:03
But I want to be able to
31:06
create a ministry that reaches far and
31:09
wide to change lives. And for me
31:12
to be able to do that, I need resources for that. I
31:15
need to not be up to my eyeballs in debt.
31:18
>> Loren: Yep.
31:18
>> Rev. Jocelyn: So I have to be able to be compensated
31:21
to pay my staff to do the things I need to do.
31:24
And so there's an element of being able to operate in
31:27
Kingdom business as an entrepreneur
31:29
to be able to sustain the ministry that God has called me
31:32
to.
31:33
>> Loren: Yeah, this is good. And this leads into, I think, a
31:36
related question. You write that
31:39
the word no was one of the most powerful words you learned
31:42
in your beginning season of ministry. So
31:45
I'm thinking again, you probably know
31:48
better than I do because I'm not good at no. But
31:52
I can imagine there's going to be times where someone's going to come to you with a
31:55
great offer that might really be
31:59
a promising event. But you might have to say no, because reasons
32:02
of resources, capacity, talk
32:05
more about that.
32:06
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Yes. That I've had to work on
32:09
as a recovering people pleaser, M who
32:12
cared so much about what people thought about me and not
32:15
wanting to sound mean, I would have
32:18
a neat jerk reaction of saying yes to, uh, so many
32:21
things. And I'd be stressed out, out of my mind.
32:24
And sometimes I would be almost resentful because
32:26
I would have these events coming up and I'm like, why did I commit
32:29
to this? Blah, blah, blah. And
32:32
it's my fault, all my fault. And so I've
32:35
had to learn to take pause and really
32:38
think about, okay, Jocelyn, is this something that
32:41
you want to do? Okay. Okay. You want to
32:44
do it? Okay. Are you the best person
32:47
for this? Okay.
32:49
>> Loren: Okay.
32:49
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Um, this is the timing
32:52
for this. Okay. So asking
32:55
these questions and then also being clear about
32:57
my priorities. In this season of
33:00
life, when you don't have priorities or
33:03
clarity of vision, then you can let other people
33:06
set the priorities for you. And at that
33:08
point, you are all over the
33:11
place. And so for me, as it relates to
33:14
certain opportunities, for example, I had someone approach
33:17
me for speaking engagement on a topic that I
33:20
typically speak on, but it was something
33:23
where they didn't have, uh, they had a small budget and that
33:26
was fine. I said, you know what? I know someone who's perfect for
33:29
you, who, uh, is a mentee of mine who
33:32
was. I was able to give them that opportunity. And so
33:35
it's one of those things where you can delegate, you can pass
33:38
gracefully on opportunities, and you can just let people
33:41
know that this sounds wonderful. I'm so grateful that you
33:43
considered me. But at this time, I'm
33:46
unable to commit to that due to other priorities. But thank you
33:49
for keeping me in mind and make that referral. I'm learning to
33:52
do that as an act of grace to them and to myself.
33:55
>> Loren: Yeah, that's great. Because I think, I mean, if
33:58
one, if anything, you're giving someone else a good opportunity.
34:01
Right. Um, in
34:04
that, the graciousness. I wrote this down.
34:07
So let's review this because I think this is good. So
34:09
again, do you want to. Because I think we all do a lot of things we
34:12
don't really want to do. Right. Am I the best person? Is the
34:15
timing right. And do they align with my
34:17
priorities in life? Because I
34:20
know for me, like when I'm haggling about
34:23
something, reviewing
34:26
what my priorities are, my values are, or
34:29
whatever really is helpful for me.
34:32
M. So again, this is kind of perfect.
34:36
Like, let's skip to this question. Then you write
34:38
about the maybe later journal. So let's talk
34:41
about the maybe later journal, how that might apply
34:44
here.
34:45
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Oh yes, I made that for myself
34:48
because I am a
34:50
creative. And uh, for anyone who's listening, when you
34:53
get the visions from God and you're like, oh, this is such a great idea,
34:56
and you just getting all these downloads and sometimes I
34:58
realize, listen, you could get overwhelmed with all your
35:01
wonderfulness and be
35:04
like a squirrel and just not
35:07
completing anything. And so I had to
35:09
create. I actually create, created a planner for
35:12
women in ministry. And I
35:15
put in the planner. The maybe later list
35:18
is a section in planner where, you know, you can
35:21
capture your ideas in a. In a place
35:24
that you can continuously go back and review it
35:27
later, but you do have to ask those
35:30
questions. Uh, again, it goes back to questions. All
35:32
right. Is this a vision that God gave me for
35:35
this season or is this something that's for 10 years from
35:38
now? Is this an idea that I have
35:41
just because it's a trending fad? Mhm. Is this
35:44
something that's in line with my
35:47
mission and ministry in the season
35:50
and so it allows you to capture it and revisit
35:52
it? I tell people, revisit it maybe once a quarter
35:56
because there's good stuff on there. But we have
35:58
to be very careful, Loren, not
36:01
to have a practice of being a great
36:04
starter and a terrible finisher. We have a whole
36:07
bunch of half built bridges. We build the bridge,
36:10
halfway stop, and then don't bring things to
36:13
completion. So I'm big on
36:16
focusing on a particular project each
36:19
quarter and I ensure I bring that project
36:21
to completion at the end of the quarter before I take on
36:24
another major project. Because I was the queen
36:27
of half built bridges for the longest, but it wasn't
36:30
serving me well, it just was making me frustrated.
36:33
And so that's my new practice in order for me
36:36
to capture those ideas but focus on
36:39
completion of what's in season for
36:42
me at this time.
36:44
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Let me ask this as a follow up then, because
36:47
I'm thinking about a lot of
36:49
the listeners of the podcast or pastors or church leaders. So
36:52
I'm thinking, I imagine you have fairly
36:55
similar experience yourself, mentoring and
36:58
supporting ministry
37:01
entrepreneurs. So someone comes to you and it's
37:03
like, uh, oh, I have this idea for a ministry I want to do,
37:06
which is oftentimes what a pastor
37:09
or church leader will experience. Someone who's part of their
37:12
congregation coming up to m them, hey, we need to do this, that or the
37:15
other. And you know, again, this
37:17
is assuming that you're in good relationship with
37:20
them and you feel like you have a good kind of
37:25
tone or take on what is good for them and
37:28
what's going on in their life. How do you, how do you counsel
37:31
people to say, hey, that's great,
37:34
but this, you know, these four things, like
37:36
the timing's not right, like, how do you, how do you have that conversation with
37:39
folks?
37:40
>> Rev. Jocelyn: I ask questions. I start off with
37:43
questions because I think when people
37:46
first are starting their ministry,
37:49
they, they might, they have this burning desire,
37:52
they want to do purpose driven work, but it's typically
37:54
not always clear. Unless you have a burning bush
37:57
moment, you're still trying to figure things
38:00
out. And so at the end of the day, I
38:03
continue to ask when people are
38:05
discerning, I ask them, okay, what cause
38:08
burdens you? Who are the people who you
38:11
feel called to serve? What gifts do you
38:14
have? And I start going through these
38:16
series of questions to help them
38:19
to refine their focus. And
38:22
then I asked them, okay, what gifts do you already
38:25
have or things do you already have going for
38:28
you that you can lean into already?
38:31
It's amazing to me how many people have
38:34
gone through these certifications or
38:37
these programs that they've done nothing with and
38:40
they have it in their Back pocket, but they start
38:43
working on something else before they actually explore what they already
38:46
have there. So I usually take people through this
38:49
assessment process of a series of questions to get
38:52
clarity and then say, okay, what can
38:55
we focus on first as
38:57
foundational? And I think the
39:00
one thing I've also seen, Loren, is people
39:03
can get so caught up on creating
39:06
this full McDonald's menu. And let me
39:09
explain that. You know how McDonald's has like, the
39:12
fries and the salad and all these side things, and
39:15
I'm like, what is your hamburger? Like
39:17
what. What is your main thing? Focus. Let's
39:20
focus on establishing that first before we
39:23
get all these side menu items.
39:25
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Because, like, even thinking McDonald's has cut back their
39:28
menu menu quite significantly
39:31
in recent years just because they realized, like, they can only do,
39:34
like, they weren't. They stopped making a good burger. Right. Because they were
39:37
doing too much.
39:38
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Mhm. Yep, yep, yep.
39:41
>> Loren: Well, this is good conversation. Uh, let's,
39:44
let's take a break. But the book is again, Sister, Start
39:47
your Ministry, A Guide to Start,
39:50
Grow and sustain a Transformative Ministry.
39:53
Again, it's titled Sister, but I imagine plenty of brothers
39:56
or folks could really
39:58
benefit from the book. So Reverend Jocelyn, uh,
40:01
let's take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing
40:04
questions.
40:08
All right, we're back with Reverend Jocelyn Jones. I
40:11
always tell folks here these closing questions, you're welcome to take these
40:14
as seriously or not as you'd like to.
40:17
Uh, some folks get a little bit
40:20
hung up on the Pope question. So feel, uh, free
40:23
to answer as you want or not. If, uh, you're
40:26
a pope for a day, if you had some kind of
40:29
global or Christian authority,
40:32
how might you want to see
40:35
that authority or experience be for
40:38
the day?
40:39
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Yeah, I sat with this question. I'm like, this question is super cool.
40:42
Let me really think about this here, because
40:45
I think if I was Pope for the day, I would
40:48
mandate a day of silence with
40:51
no technology, uh, and
40:54
require people to be able to just
40:57
be still and
41:00
to be able to reflect, commune with their God
41:04
and really reconnect with self. I think people
41:07
might be crawling and climbing the walls
41:10
with a date like that because we become
41:12
so inundated
41:15
with technology and busyness and
41:18
distractions. And again, as I said earlier, silence
41:21
could be so loud for people. But once
41:24
you get past the initial shock and you kind of
41:26
detox from the, from all the distractions
41:29
and you have moments to find rest in self
41:32
and be out with nature and
41:35
really explore the things that God has given us that
41:38
matter, how beautiful that is.
41:41
And God has given me tremendous revelations
41:44
when I actually sat in the
41:46
silence. And that's something I would
41:49
love to have people experience.
41:52
>> Loren: Yeah, it goes back to what you said early in the
41:55
conversation about. I mean, you talked about being so
41:58
busy that you couldn't hear. But I think
42:01
so many of us, me included,
42:05
we're so distracted by the phone
42:08
or the constant inputs that it's hard to hear.
42:10
So I,
42:13
I've done a 24 hour silence retreat and
42:16
I hated it, but I'm sure it was good for me.
42:20
>> Rev. Jocelyn: It's tough, it's tough. But, yeah, uh,
42:23
I think I'm trying to go on one next year for a couple
42:26
days and I feel like I'll be going through my little detox, you
42:29
know, convulsions and everything. But, ah, once you get
42:31
through day one, you can start embracing it, I
42:34
believe.
42:35
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Um, a theologian or
42:37
historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back
42:40
to life.
42:42
>> Rev. Jocelyn: I was wrestling between Peter and
42:45
Paul. I think both of them
42:48
resonates with me because of
42:50
their backstory. Their backstory is
42:53
fascinating. Paul, obviously known as Saul,
42:56
formerly known as Saul, and his backstory. But then
42:59
Peter, when he denied
43:01
Jesus, when Peter, you know, swore
43:04
up and down he never would. I mean, and Peter
43:07
had that wild side. I mean, he was cutting off ears. He was like,
43:10
go hard for Jesus, you know, but, but
43:13
just seeing his, his transformation and
43:16
his redemption after that
43:19
mistake is beauty in that.
43:21
And, and I think it just reminds
43:24
me of our walk because we
43:27
are going to mess up sometimes. And for
43:30
me, also a recovering perfectionist,
43:33
there have been many times in which I got
43:36
stuck in a shoulda, coulda, would haves. I, uh,
43:39
tell people now, stop shoulding on yourself, you know, because
43:42
it doesn't help but to
43:44
see how God uses us
43:48
in our mistakes and flaws and seeing how Peter
43:51
and Paul, I would interview them and say, how did you, like,
43:54
work through that? Like, what was your thoughts like, Peter,
43:56
when, you know, you realize you denied Jesus three times
43:59
and you weeped and everything. How did you get through that?
44:02
And, you know, so those are questions that I
44:05
would have.
44:06
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good, that's good. Um, what do you think
44:09
history will remember from our current time and place?
44:13
>> Rev. Jocelyn: That question I struggle with because
44:16
right now I feel like we're extremely
44:19
polarized. It's unfortunate
44:22
that sometimes we can
44:24
be stuck on an issue
44:27
and, uh, firmly in our beliefs to the point where
44:30
we can't disagree without cutting off
44:33
the person yeah. And that's
44:36
scary because we, you know, in a
44:38
cancel culture type environment,
44:42
you know, people I don't disagree
44:44
with, I don't agree, excuse me, with everything that anyone
44:47
says. Like there's going to be disagreements, agreements. Right, right. But I
44:50
can still love you. I can still at least provide space
44:53
for like conversation to
44:57
at least understand your viewpoint and then
44:59
vocalize mine is very
45:02
challenging in this environment when we aren't
45:05
open to hearing other
45:08
people and really listening deeply and
45:11
then still being able to love them in spite the fact
45:13
that we disagree. That is something that I'm
45:16
hoping, uh, particularly. I, uh, know this is probably going
45:19
to air well after the election, but you know, with
45:22
the election being very polarizing, I just
45:25
pray that we can get to a point where we can love each other
45:28
in spite of our differences.
45:30
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:33
What do you hope then for the future of Christianity?
45:37
>> Rev. Jocelyn: I, uh, think it's around that same lines. I think
45:40
that my hope for Christianity
45:43
is that we move beyond
45:46
religion to again relationship,
45:48
which I started this conversation talking about. I think that
45:51
religion can jack people up when we
45:54
get to be so holier than
45:57
thou Pharisees caught
46:00
up in certain elements of the tradition, which is
46:03
honestly a beautiful thing. You know, there's certain elements
46:05
of religion that I embrace and I love in terms of uh, spiritual
46:08
practices and I love the church.
46:12
I do think though that people can use
46:14
religion to weaponize and cause harm.
46:17
I mhm. Was talking about this. Earlier this week I was hosting a
46:20
Faith Leaders Against Domestic Violence summit
46:23
and I was talking to faith leaders,
46:26
uh, about the fact that the spiritual text
46:29
could be used like scripture can be used as a
46:32
weapon versus a source of healing for people.
46:35
And taken outside of context,
46:38
and this is, this is scary for someone who
46:40
is a domestic violence survivor to see
46:43
how this domestic violence happens to men
46:46
and women and anybody it can happen to, but
46:49
primarily women. We see m that women
46:51
are chastised and really
46:54
encouraged to stay in dangerous marriages
46:57
for the sake of religion and their
47:00
relationship with God. When God does not
47:03
want anyone to be abused. Right. And
47:06
so I want the church to be
47:08
trauma informed. A lot of my work is
47:11
around helping the church to become
47:14
sacred places of healing versus harm.
47:16
So that when you do find out that someone has
47:19
experienced trauma, whether due to domestic violence, whether they're
47:22
struggling with suicide, whether they're struggling with
47:25
depression, whatever the case may be, we
47:27
don't say, well you don't have enough faith.
47:30
We don't say words like that. No,
47:33
we, we show them love, we
47:36
connect them with Resources. And we, we
47:38
are a place that is safe for people
47:41
who are coming to the church as a spiritual
47:44
hospital. That's my desire for the church and
47:47
that's why I do the work that I do.
47:51
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. I'm. I'm reading, um, a book
47:53
right now on kind of church
47:56
abuse. And you know, in that
47:59
kind of toxicity that can happen where
48:02
folks are essentially protecting the church, they're protecting the
48:05
religion, doing the wrong thing because they
48:07
think they need to protect the religion. So
48:10
I'm especially appreciative of what you said there.
48:14
Let's, uh, let's do this. Share if you would. Kind
48:16
of. You obviously have the book here, which we've talked about, but you
48:19
do a lot of other work, so feel free to share how
48:22
folks can connect with you, what some of the other work you do and
48:25
that in your connection.
48:27
>> Rev. Jocelyn: Yes. So if someone wants to connect with
48:30
me, they can visit my website, jocelynj
48:33
Jones dot com. That's kind of like the
48:36
hub where you can learn more about the work that I
48:38
do from like a faith standpoint, from a
48:41
healing, trauma healing, church standpoint, my trauma healing
48:44
ministry. You can connect through there. You can also
48:47
find out about my sister Start yout Ministry Resources
48:50
through that site. So that is a good place to
48:53
start. I also do want to mention, Loren, that I have a free
48:56
gift to offer your listeners.
48:59
Yeah, I created a
49:02
ministry launch starter kit for individuals
49:05
who are just trying to get, you know, the ministry off the
49:08
ground. And so you can get that for free by visiting
49:10
sisterstartyourministry.com.
49:14
>> Loren: Okay, let's make sure, uh, if you have not
49:17
send that to me, I'll make sure we include it in the show notes.
49:20
>> Rev. Jocelyn: For sure. For sure.
49:22
>> Loren: Well, this has been a great conversation. Really appreciate your
49:25
time. Always. Uh, leave folks with a word of peace.
49:27
So may God's peace be with you.
49:36
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
49:39
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
49:42
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
49:45
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49:47
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