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Live At The Stanley Pub - Part 2 ATM Glitch That Gave Him Unlimited Money · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Apoche Production.
0:14
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
0:17
Speaker 2: Adam Shand. This is part two of my special live
0:20
Speaker 2: show at the Stanley Pub. My guest on this cold
0:23
Speaker 2: winter's evening in Victoria's northeast was Daniel Saunders. I call
0:28
Speaker 2: him ATM Boy, but you might know him from the
0:31
Speaker 2: podcast The Glitch. In 2011... Daniel discovered his ATM card
0:36
Speaker 2: could give him unlimited money. And for the next four months,
0:39
Speaker 2: he lived like a millionaire until his conscience took over.
0:43
Speaker 2: This is the story of what happened and how the
0:45
Speaker 2: magic ATM card brought us together. Thanks again to Sally
0:49
Speaker 2: Wright for inviting us to her pub to tell the story.
0:53
Speaker 2: Thanks once again for the Stanley Pub for having us
0:55
Speaker 2: here tonight. It's been fantastic. Let's move on with some
0:59
Speaker 2: local crime. Some local crime that began here in Wangaratta.
1:07
Speaker 2: That's another story altogether, that one. We'll get to that
1:10
Speaker 2: one day.
1:11
Speaker 1: One day.
1:13
Speaker 2: I've dealt with a lot of crooks in my time.
1:16
Speaker 2: This guy's not one of them. Although he did do
1:21
Speaker 2: something remarkable, which it's a story that's gone around the
1:26
Speaker 2: world now. In hundreds of millions of YouTube downloads, Instagram,
1:32
Speaker 2: Facebook posts, It's a story that captivates people. It's also
1:36
Speaker 2: a story that when he came to me out of
1:39
Speaker 2: the blue about 11 years ago, I didn't want to write.
1:43
Speaker 2: It was so strange. Dan Saunders contacted me out of
1:46
Speaker 2: the blue and said, I've got a remarkable story to
1:49
Speaker 2: tell you. I was a barman in Wangaratta at the
1:54
Speaker 2: Westside Tavern.
1:57
Speaker 1: Wang. Wang. Okay, good. All right. Let's get it right.
2:00
Speaker 2: Let's get it right. And one night I go to
2:04
Speaker 2: my ATM. I discover I can take unlimited money. Now,
2:11
Speaker 2: I think we've all had that fantasy about transforming our
2:14
Speaker 2: lives overnight, about untold riches, about doing everything you would
2:20
Speaker 2: want to do. It's a bit of a dream for people.
2:23
Speaker 2: But what would you actually do when the opportunity arose?
2:26
Speaker 2: Would you really take it? Dan Saunders took it. and
2:32
Speaker 2: it changed his life forever. And Dan, you can pick
2:36
Speaker 2: it up from here, but after four and a half months,
2:40
Speaker 2: you took about $ 1. 6 million from the National Australia Bank's
2:46
Speaker 2: ATMs and had the best time of all time, I think.
2:54
Speaker 2: But you weren't the kind of person to keep it
2:58
Speaker 2: to yourself. You showed all your friends. And you suddenly
3:01
Speaker 2: had a lot of new friends. A very good time.
3:05
Speaker 2: But then the bank, you decided to stop voluntarily. And
3:10
Speaker 2: the bank still didn't chase you. And you were in
3:12
Speaker 2: this sort of limbo, waiting for the hammer to fall
3:16
Speaker 2: on you.
3:17
Speaker 1: It didn't.
3:18
Speaker 2: So you contacted me to tell your story, but also
3:21
Speaker 2: to bring some kind of resolution to this deep hole
3:26
Speaker 2: that you dug for yourself. Tell me why you reached
3:29
Speaker 2: out to me Well, in hindsight, I'm not sure. It's
3:35
Speaker 2: a terrible decision, really. Reputationally, criminally, all of the above, yeah.
3:42
Speaker 1: I kind of, like my story has been told by
3:46
Speaker 1: millions of people all around the world and it's been
3:48
Speaker 1: in YouTube videos and things and I'm not telling you
3:51
Speaker 1: that because you should think that's great. I'm telling you
3:54
Speaker 1: that because a lot of people just assume what the
3:58
Speaker 1: story is. And so I'd like to start by just
4:02
Speaker 1: thanking every one of you for actually taking the time
4:06
Speaker 1: to hear it from the horse's mouth because a lot
4:09
Speaker 1: of things get printed and a lot of things get
4:12
Speaker 1: made without my actual sort of input. So I just
4:15
Speaker 1: want to say first of all that the story for
4:19
Speaker 1: me is not, you know, how good am I because
4:22
Speaker 1: I did this thing. The story for me is about
4:26
Speaker 1: temptation and what we do when no one's looking. and
4:30
Speaker 1: how we move the moral compass for money, right? And
4:35
Speaker 1: I clearly moved the moral compass for money. But I
4:39
Speaker 1: walked through a door that was essentially left wide open
4:44
Speaker 1: by a massive bank with a massive responsibility to ultimately
4:50
Speaker 1: take care of their money, which they didn't do. But
4:54
Speaker 1: it's not blaming them or anything like that, but it's like,
4:58
Speaker 1: I walked through a door and then I walked through
5:00
Speaker 1: another one and all I was using was my ATM card.
5:04
Speaker 1: So you guys have all got one. So imagine if
5:08
Speaker 1: your card becomes the magic card just like that. Now,
5:14
Speaker 1: I'd like to tell you that I've always been responsible
5:16
Speaker 1: with money, but you probably wouldn't believe me and you'd
5:21
Speaker 1: be right. I was living paycheck to paycheck. I wasn't...
5:27
Speaker 1: I wasn't saving. I was saving in a joint account
5:30
Speaker 1: with my partner at the time, but I wasn't. I
5:34
Speaker 1: was just living week to week. I was working in
5:37
Speaker 1: the Westside Tavern. I was working for Paul Judd, who
5:41
Speaker 1: apparently loves the story. Not. I think he hates it.
5:46
Speaker 1: But I kind of like that too. Not that I
5:49
Speaker 1: don't like Judd, but it's just interesting sort of the
5:52
Speaker 1: way he is. Anyway, you'll get to know that from me.
5:56
Speaker 1: I'm pretty random and I say some pretty random things.
5:59
Speaker 1: And at this point, I'd just like to say thank
6:01
Speaker 1: you to Sally for hosting tonight and being just a
6:06
Speaker 1: rip-roaring public. It's the first time I've been here. And
6:09
Speaker 1: the beer lines, I always, as an ex-barman, I always
6:12
Speaker 1: take note of the beer lines because and they are
6:14
Speaker 1: super clean. And so whoever....
6:18
Speaker 2: Thank you, Sal.
6:18
Speaker 1: Whoever cleans those, you've done a magnificent job. I think
6:23
Speaker 1: he's applying for a job, Sal. I'm always, yeah, I'm
6:26
Speaker 1: always looking. But, yeah, and the fact that, you know,
6:30
Speaker 1: you don't serve palmers is, you know, you can get
6:33
Speaker 1: a palmer in 99% of the pubs all around Australia.
6:36
Speaker 1: So I don't think, you know, if someone comes here
6:38
Speaker 1: for some dumplings, I don't think they'll be missing out
6:40
Speaker 1: on much. So... Yeah, no, it's just a pleasure to
6:43
Speaker 1: be here and thanks for having me. I did offer
6:46
Speaker 1: the seat next to the fire to Adam, which he
6:49
Speaker 1: politely refused. So it's getting pretty hot, but that's fine.
6:53
Speaker 2: I must say it's nice to be in a place
6:55
Speaker 2: where you smell wood smoke rather than shop fronts burning
6:58
Speaker 2: as we have in Melbourne all the time.
7:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially on Victoria Street. Yeah, that's right. So sorry
7:05
Speaker 1: to be disappointing to anyone, but I didn't kill anyone
7:07
Speaker 1: and I don't plan on it. I never thought about it.
7:11
Speaker 1: The only time I've ever had a physical altercation with
7:13
Speaker 1: someone was in jail when they were trying to basically
7:20
Speaker 1: beat me. And that's when I'm glad to know my
7:23
Speaker 1: survival instincts are able to kick in. And they did.
7:27
Speaker 1: So that's the only time I've ever sort of retaliated
7:30
Speaker 1: to some kind of violence. So everything that happened before,
7:34
Speaker 1: if you really love the first part of the show,
7:38
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, there's not going to be any of that.
7:41
Speaker 1: So I worked out how to transfer money between my accounts.
7:45
Speaker 1: That's probably the most important and the first thing I'll
7:48
Speaker 1: tell you. I also just want to say that the
7:52
Speaker 1: fact that I did this, I still think who was
7:56
Speaker 1: that guy that did it? Because it was clearly someone
7:58
Speaker 1: who got out of control. So I might tell the
8:02
Speaker 1: story in a jovial way, but I'm just a positive guy.
8:06
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like, I don't want you
8:07
Speaker 1: to think that I'm, like, I'm not proud of it
8:10
Speaker 1: or anything like that. I think a bank in the
8:13
Speaker 1: same position as me would have done exactly the same thing.
8:17
Speaker 1: Turned a blind eye and just spent as much as
8:19
Speaker 1: they can. And that's how they charge dead people. You know,
8:22
Speaker 1: we found out during the Royal Commission and that sort
8:24
Speaker 1: of thing. That doesn't make it right what I did,
8:27
Speaker 1: but essentially I went, well, it's a big bank, so
8:30
Speaker 1: I'm just going to go for it.
8:32
Speaker 2: Okay.
8:33
Speaker 1: Okay. Sorry, what year, please, just to give us some context. Oh,
8:37
Speaker 1: that's okay. That was Adam's job. Sorry, 2011. Okay, thank you.
8:42
Speaker 2: Thanks.
8:43
Speaker 1: So I'll just go, for those who have never heard
8:46
Speaker 1: of the story, I'll just go back to the start.
8:48
Speaker 1: So I was drinking at the Bull's Head. So cafe martini,
8:53
Speaker 1: kitchen nightmares, all that jazz, right? So I'm in there
8:58
Speaker 1: in the side where the jukebox is and the pool table.
9:03
Speaker 1: And I'm there with my mate Mark, who's a chef,
9:05
Speaker 1: and we used to work in Beechworth at a place
9:07
Speaker 1: called The Green Shed, which was a good restaurant. I
9:11
Speaker 1: don't think it's there anymore, but it was a good
9:12
Speaker 1: restaurant at the time. It was a nice place, an
9:15
Speaker 1: Asian fusion type of place. Anyway, getting off track. So
9:19
Speaker 1: basically it was my turn for a round, and Mark
9:22
Speaker 1: turned to me and he said, you cheap bastard, you've
9:26
Speaker 1: got to buy the next round. And I was like, okay, sure.
9:29
Speaker 1: So I go around the corner to the ATM shop,
9:32
Speaker 1: And I couldn't get a balance on my account. So
9:35
Speaker 1: I put the card in, put the pin in, couldn't
9:38
Speaker 1: get a balance. It said transaction cancelled and it spat
9:42
Speaker 1: the card out. And I was like, oh, that's weird.
9:45
Speaker 1: So I tried to get a balance again and then
9:47
Speaker 1: it came up with this balance unavailable at this time.
9:52
Speaker 1: So I thought, okay, well, I'll try and transfer some
9:56
Speaker 1: money from my credit card to my savings account. So
9:59
Speaker 1: I just went, okay, $ 200 for my credit card, MasterCard
10:03
Speaker 1: to my savings account. And it just said transaction cancelled
10:07
Speaker 1: and the card came out. And I was like, oh,
10:10
Speaker 1: that's weird. So I put the card back in and
10:14
Speaker 1: just got $ 200 out of the savings account like it
10:17
Speaker 1: had transferred and the $ 200 came out of the savings account.
10:21
Speaker 1: So I went back. and bought some beers, and we
10:24
Speaker 1: continued to drink for the next about maybe 40 minutes.
10:28
Speaker 1: It was February 22, 2011. So we drank for the
10:34
Speaker 1: next 40 minutes. It was absolutely howling. It was raining.
10:39
Speaker 1: I said goodbye to Mark. I walked around into the
10:42
Speaker 1: main street, and I saw like a red glow of
10:47
Speaker 1: the NAB ATM, and I was like, well, I'm just
10:50
Speaker 1: going to see what, that crazy thing was with the
10:54
Speaker 1: ATM because it was raining and I was like, oh,
10:57
Speaker 1: I'll just put my card in and see what happens.
11:01
Speaker 1: So I just started pressing the same thing, credit card
11:05
Speaker 1: to savings, and I just started doing transfers, another $ 200,
11:09
Speaker 1: then $ 500, then $ 600, and got the money out. So
11:14
Speaker 1: I had two cards, right, so they were both linked
11:18
Speaker 1: to one to the credit card and one to the
11:20
Speaker 1: savings account. So I got $ 1, 000 on each card out
11:25
Speaker 1: and went home. And I thought to myself, it must
11:28
Speaker 1: be a dream. You know, I don't know, when people
11:32
Speaker 1: have this dream of winning the lottery or winning a
11:35
Speaker 1: lot of money or having a lot of money, you
11:37
Speaker 1: have that dream where you're rich. And I had that
11:40
Speaker 1: dream that night that I was rich. And then I
11:43
Speaker 1: woke up in the morning and I thought, oh, that's
11:45
Speaker 1: just some BS dream. And then I turned to the
11:48
Speaker 1: wallet on the bed stand and it was bulging. It's like,
11:54
Speaker 1: what is going on? Like, is this real or what?
11:57
Speaker 1: What's happening? And I sort of thought nothing of it
12:00
Speaker 1: because I'd used my own card. Basically, I'd taken out
12:04
Speaker 1: a loan on my own account, really. And so I
12:09
Speaker 1: sort of went, well, I could put the money in
12:11
Speaker 1: the bank or I could just do a few things. So.
12:16
Speaker 1: I remember I bought, I had this, basically I was
12:21
Speaker 1: in a new house and it didn't have a fridge,
12:24
Speaker 1: so I thought I'll buy a fridge. Really random stuff
12:27
Speaker 1: that you don't expect to be talking about 15 years later,
12:29
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like just, yeah, innocuous stuff.
12:33
Speaker 1: And then I sort of left it for a couple
12:35
Speaker 1: of days and then went back and checked the balance
12:38
Speaker 1: of the account and it was minus $ 2, 000. Well, it
12:41
Speaker 1: was basically I had $ 3 in the account. And it
12:45
Speaker 1: was minus $ 1, 997. Also, having $ 3 in your bank account
12:52
Speaker 1: and admitting that in front of 60 people is pretty, yeah,
12:55
Speaker 1: it's not great either. Anyway, so I'm like, what is
13:01
Speaker 1: this thing? What has happened to this car? So I
13:04
Speaker 1: went back that night, two days later, between 12 and
13:09
Speaker 1: 1 a.m., and I transferred... $ 1, 000 from my credit card
13:15
Speaker 1: to my savings. So the money was going under in
13:18
Speaker 1: the savings. So basically, I'd taken the money from the savings.
13:22
Speaker 1: So that was now in debt. So I transferred $ 1, 000
13:28
Speaker 1: from my credit to my savings. And then I had $ 997.
13:31
Speaker 1: So I'm in control of my bank account balance.
13:35
Speaker 2: I can.
13:41
Speaker 1: Shift money between my accounts that's not there. It's essentially
13:46
Speaker 1: not there. And I can't even tell you from the
13:51
Speaker 1: bank's point of view, that's just my point of view.
13:53
Speaker 1: That's what was happening. So then I transferred another $ 1, 000
13:56
Speaker 1: and I'm back to $ 3 in credit. So then I
14:01
Speaker 1: transfer another $ 1, 000 and another $ 1, 000 and then get $ 1, 000
14:05
Speaker 1: on each card and go home. Well, I think you
14:09
Speaker 1: know the story. You did it. So I had the
14:11
Speaker 1: dream again, woke up, money's in the wallet. Now, we
14:18
Speaker 1: talk about like being responsible and things like that. I
14:21
Speaker 1: think that eluded me in 2011. So I just discovered
14:26
Speaker 1: a way to print money out of nowhere. And it
14:30
Speaker 1: was extremely addictive. So I wasn't at any point thinking
14:35
Speaker 1: to myself that I'm not going to, I'm going to
14:37
Speaker 1: stop doing this now because I think it's bad or
14:40
Speaker 1: it was just exciting. And I didn't go and buy
14:44
Speaker 1: things for myself. I started, it's a bit of a
14:47
Speaker 1: trap gambling because I used to work at the TAB
14:51
Speaker 1: at Juddy's. So I used to gamble behind the bar
14:55
Speaker 1: and a guy who was a racehorse trainer, his name
14:59
Speaker 1: was Ray Boltworth. I don't think he's alive anymore, but
15:03
Speaker 1: He said to me, my horse, it can't run worse
15:10
Speaker 1: than third. And so I thought, well, I'm going to
15:14
Speaker 1: use the money that I've got so far. So I
15:16
Speaker 1: went every night to the ATM and I got this money.
15:19
Speaker 1: So I was just building up this money in my
15:21
Speaker 1: top drawer. And I thought, well, if this horse places,
15:26
Speaker 1: then I can pay all the money back and still
15:29
Speaker 1: have a bit left over. Great plan.
15:32
Speaker 2: Perfect.
15:33
Speaker 1: And so you can imagine what happened. The horse missed
15:35
Speaker 1: the start by about four lengths and ran fourth. And
15:40
Speaker 1: I remember Ray Bodsworth just went, oh, well, you didn't
15:45
Speaker 1: have too much on it, did you, Dan? I was like, no, no,
15:49
Speaker 1: just about eight months pay, not much. Anyway, so that
15:54
Speaker 1: kick started. Basically, we started shouting so big. We'd go
16:01
Speaker 1: to places like the zoo and GC and all those
16:06
Speaker 1: places and start shouting drinks. A very mature act of
16:12
Speaker 1: leaving money on the floor for people to pick up.
16:15
Speaker 1: I thought that was like a really funny joke, which
16:18
Speaker 1: again is pretty embarrassing 15 years later, but here we are.
16:23
Speaker 1: Just going to pause for one second. So all these
16:26
Speaker 1: juvenile things happened along the journey, which I can't really explain.
16:31
Speaker 1: I don't really know why. I can just put it
16:33
Speaker 1: down to the hilarity and the craziness of the situation.
16:39
Speaker 1: So then my girlfriend at the time, my fiancé at
16:44
Speaker 1: the time, she got wind that I was spending all
16:47
Speaker 1: this money all around town and she wanted nothing of it.
16:53
Speaker 1: She was a religion teacher. She wanted nothing of it.
16:57
Speaker 1: So she said to me via text that it's all over.
17:00
Speaker 1: And then that very same day, the TAB rang Paul
17:05
Speaker 1: Judd and said, this guy's betting behind the bar. He
17:10
Speaker 1: can't run the TAB anymore. You've got to get rid
17:13
Speaker 1: of him. So I lost my job and my fiancé
17:19
Speaker 1: in one day. But all I had going for me
17:22
Speaker 1: was this limitless credit card. So then I had nothing
17:27
Speaker 1: to keep me in Wangaratta. So then I... went to Melbourne.
17:32
Speaker 1: And that's when the spending escalated and I really started
17:38
Speaker 1: to learn more about the glitch. So I started to
17:42
Speaker 1: learn that I could transfer up to six figures at
17:47
Speaker 1: a time. So I could transfer $ 999, 000 from my credit
17:52
Speaker 1: card to my savings account And this money would stay
17:57
Speaker 1: there for a 24-hour period before it would reverse. So
18:03
Speaker 1: then I could walk in. A misconception about the story
18:06
Speaker 1: is that I got all this money out of an
18:09
Speaker 1: ATM because I had the balance of, you know, so
18:13
Speaker 1: if I transferred $ 900, 000 and then I transferred another $ 900, 000
18:17
Speaker 1: and then another $ 900, 000 in five minutes, right, the account
18:24
Speaker 1: would be $ 2. 7 million. So then I could walk into
18:28
Speaker 1: the bank in the morning and just say to the teller,
18:32
Speaker 1: and this was 2011, so we were still getting big
18:34
Speaker 1: amounts out of the bank, I could say, could I
18:37
Speaker 1: please have $ 50, 000? And they'd think nothing of it because
18:41
Speaker 1: they had $ 2. 7 million in there. So I remember having
18:44
Speaker 1: conversations where the teller would say, oh, are you off
18:47
Speaker 1: to buy a car or what are you going to
18:49
Speaker 1: buy today? And I was like, oh, well, I don't
18:53
Speaker 1: really know, you know, so I had to come up
18:55
Speaker 1: with a story next time, you know. And I just
18:57
Speaker 1: learned things as I went along. And, yeah, it became
19:04
Speaker 1: normal life but clearly not normal, clearly completely abnormal. Is
19:10
Speaker 1: that how you say it? Abnormal. Yeah, abnormal, yeah. So, yeah, well,
19:15
Speaker 1: you can tell by that I'm not a bright spark,
19:17
Speaker 1: am I? You know what I mean? So... it's um
19:23
Speaker 1: yeah i i discovered something so exciting to me that
19:28
Speaker 1: that it was impossible for me to leave it on
19:30
Speaker 1: the table and and and people go oh you know
19:32
Speaker 1: it's a it's a moral or whatever i mean it's
19:36
Speaker 1: perfectly fair enough i mean it's uh it's just the
19:39
Speaker 1: story i mean i um yeah when i sort of
19:42
Speaker 1: explain it to people it's not i'm not trying to
19:44
Speaker 1: justify it i'm just trying to Sort of, it's almost
19:47
Speaker 1: like a therapy, like what would happen to you? And
19:49
Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons it has gone around
19:52
Speaker 1: the world is because of the fact that, you know,
19:55
Speaker 1: it taps into people's fantasies. And it's like, well, what
19:58
Speaker 1: would you do if you were in that position? And
20:00
Speaker 1: I think everyone kind of, you know, thinks about that.
20:02
Speaker 1: It's not really about me or what I did. It's
20:05
Speaker 1: more about what are your decisions or what would they
20:08
Speaker 1: be if you were in this position.
20:11
Speaker 2: And you attracted a new group of friends around you.
20:15
Speaker 2: And you indulge their every whim or desire.
20:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think looking back, that's what I loved. I
20:24
Speaker 1: love being the person that could make other people's dreams
20:28
Speaker 1: come true. Like that's what I was addicted to. And
20:31
Speaker 1: I love being the person who could walk into a
20:33
Speaker 1: room and change it, you know. And I think that, yeah,
20:37
Speaker 1: I really love the attention. Like I'm no Cristiano Ronaldo,
20:42
Speaker 1: but you feel like you're famous and when you can
20:45
Speaker 1: sort of walk into a room and, you know, people
20:48
Speaker 1: gravitate towards you. And obviously it's just because of the money.
20:51
Speaker 1: It's not because of, you know, who I am or
20:54
Speaker 1: anything like that.
20:55
Speaker 2: And the way people treated you changed because before the
20:57
Speaker 2: card you were like a soft six, but with the
20:59
Speaker 2: card you were a hard nine.
21:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
21:02
Speaker 2: I think that's generous.
21:03
Speaker 1: Soft six, that's good. Exactly. You know, you could be
21:09
Speaker 1: another person. And haven't we all dreamt of that? Haven't
21:13
Speaker 1: we all dreamt to wave a magic wand and be
21:15
Speaker 1: a different person? And I think that if you haven't,
21:19
Speaker 1: if you're sitting in the room and you haven't wanted
21:21
Speaker 1: to be another person, I think you've got the good
21:24
Speaker 1: stuff because that's, you know, like that's not a common thing.
21:27
Speaker 1: You know, like we all dream of being someone else sometimes. Yeah.
21:33
Speaker 2: And there are moments of just sheer indulgence. So you
21:35
Speaker 2: go to Rockpool in Melbourne and shout at the whole restaurant.
21:38
Speaker 1: It was completely ridiculous. I mean, so I was on
21:43
Speaker 1: Insight the other night and I remember filming Insight. I
21:47
Speaker 1: filmed it about four months ago. And they talk to
21:50
Speaker 1: you one-on-one at the start. So Yumi comes out and
21:53
Speaker 1: she'll have a chat to you for 40 minutes and
21:56
Speaker 1: then she'll go to the next person. And I chatted about,
21:59
Speaker 1: you know, how I'd bought a lady a horse and I,
22:03
Speaker 1: you know, took a lady to every shop in town
22:09
Speaker 1: to buy everything she needed to go and be an
22:11
Speaker 1: au pair in Paris so she could learn French in
22:16
Speaker 1: a French university. And then they cut to this Aboriginal
22:21
Speaker 1: woman who needed $ 2, 000 for a car and I was like... oh,
22:27
Speaker 1: I'm going to look like a real arsehole now, you know.
22:31
Speaker 1: And maybe I am an arsehole.
22:34
Speaker 3: I don't know.
22:35
Speaker 1: But the point is that you speak for 40 minutes
22:39
Speaker 1: and then it's condensed to three minutes. So it's like a,
22:43
Speaker 1: you know, that's your moment. That's what you guys do. Yeah. But, yeah,
22:49
Speaker 1: it's something that you– I completely ran away with myself, absolutely. But–
22:54
Speaker 1: The way I justified it is that I spent the
22:57
Speaker 1: money on other people. So I bought, so we paid
23:03
Speaker 1: a NAB home loan with the NAB stolen money.
23:11
Speaker 2: My favourite though was when you went to the bar
23:14
Speaker 2: underneath the National Australia Bank headquarters in Melbourne. What did
23:17
Speaker 2: you do?
23:18
Speaker 1: Again, ridiculous. But Yeah, we put a sign, because I
23:23
Speaker 1: used to work in the bar, so the bar was
23:25
Speaker 1: called Watermark Bar, and we put a sign near the
23:29
Speaker 1: escalators at the Watermark Bar saying, all NAB staff, free
23:34
Speaker 1: drinks Friday night. And so we had a bit of
23:39
Speaker 1: a build-up. We did it on Tuesday, and so there
23:42
Speaker 1: was a bit of a buzz, and we had 400,
23:45
Speaker 1: 500 NAB employees in the Watermark Bar saying, and we
23:51
Speaker 1: were just shouting them drinks. And if I had the,
23:55
Speaker 1: I just want to say now, if I had the money,
23:57
Speaker 1: I'd shout you all drinks.
24:00
Speaker 2: Is there an ATM.
24:03
Speaker 1: Nearby? So they had no idea they were there, why
24:09
Speaker 1: they were there. And we shouted them drinks for two hours.
24:13
Speaker 1: My friend decided it'd be funny to get up on
24:15
Speaker 1: stage and make a speech. So he said, We just
24:20
Speaker 1: want to thank NAB for being there for us this year.
24:24
Speaker 1: And you're a really great bank with really great people.
24:29
Speaker 1: And we just really appreciate you all. And they had
24:33
Speaker 1: no idea, but they were really happy with the free drinks. Yeah.
24:37
Speaker 2: One of the surreal moments for me was when you
24:39
Speaker 2: were in the height of this indulgence and you see
24:44
Speaker 2: a NAB sign and it's a mirror image and it says, Dan.
24:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, things like that was just spooky. I
24:54
Speaker 1: think we've actually found a way to get Adam in
24:58
Speaker 1: a spooky way. If I give you all Adam's phone
25:00
Speaker 1: number at the end of the night, we can call
25:03
Speaker 1: him in the middle of the night and say we're
25:04
Speaker 1: the ghost of Carl Williams.
25:06
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
25:10
Speaker 1: Well, you know, like you're getting too calm in your
25:11
Speaker 1: old age.
25:12
Speaker 2: Getting too calm, yeah.
25:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it was, oh, jeez, what do
25:16
Speaker 1: you say?
25:18
Speaker 3: Yeah.
25:19
Speaker 2: One of my favourite moments of the whole story was
25:21
Speaker 2: when you were in Sydney and you were approached by
25:23
Speaker 2: a homeless guy in the street. He said, I just
25:26
Speaker 2: need some money for a room for the night. He said,
25:29
Speaker 2: I'll do better than that. He got him a room
25:31
Speaker 2: at the Hilton, I believe.
25:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. So that happened to be. So there'd
25:36
Speaker 1: be a bus guy who sort of needed, you know,
25:39
Speaker 1: like wanted some money or, you know, like would overpay
25:43
Speaker 1: cab drivers, you know, that kind of stuff. But, yeah,
25:46
Speaker 1: like a homeless guy comes up and he says, oh,
25:49
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to scrape together $ 12 for a room
25:51
Speaker 1: for the night. And basically I didn't think I'd be
25:56
Speaker 1: reciting this years later, so it's not like, you know,
25:59
Speaker 1: I was doing it for any particular reason. But so
26:02
Speaker 1: I said I can do better than that. I'll get
26:04
Speaker 1: you a night at the Hilton. Come with me. So.
26:09
Speaker 1: I know, I've got to know Jack at the Hilton,
26:13
Speaker 1: the duty manager at the Hilton. So I say, Jack,
26:16
Speaker 1: this is my friend, Frederick, you know, and Jack goes, yeah, yeah, sure,
26:22
Speaker 1: he's your friend there, yeah, no worries. I go, please,
26:25
Speaker 1: get him a night and he's going to stay and
26:29
Speaker 1: he can order a room service, whatever, we're going to
26:31
Speaker 1: leave the card and he can do whatever he wants.
26:34
Speaker 1: No problem. So I didn't think anything of it. I
26:38
Speaker 1: was staying over at the Shangri-La or somewhere, which is
26:42
Speaker 1: not dissimilar to the accommodation tonight, so thank you very
26:44
Speaker 1: much for whoever provided that. And, look, I wasn't doing it.
26:50
Speaker 1: This is completely random, right? So I don't think I'm
26:54
Speaker 1: going to be talking about this years later. So he goes,
26:58
Speaker 1: has a great night, gets all the room service he wants, has,
27:03
Speaker 1: you know, scotches and whatever, champagne, whatever he wants to have.
27:07
Speaker 1: And then I think nothing of it. And then about
27:10
Speaker 1: 5 p.m. the next day, Jack calls me and says, oh, Mr. Saunders. Yeah, yeah, Jack,
27:18
Speaker 1: how you going? He goes, well, pretty good. There's a
27:22
Speaker 1: few issues with the room last night where your friend stayed.
27:26
Speaker 1: And I'm like, friend? What are you talking about, friend?
27:29
Speaker 1: He goes, yeah, you remember? You checked in about 3 o'clock. Frederick. Yeah.
27:33
Speaker 1: And I said, oh, what's happened? He said, well, there
27:38
Speaker 1: seems to be some items missing from the room. The
27:43
Speaker 1: robes are gone. The towels are gone. The TV. The
27:48
Speaker 1: kettle's gone. The TV wasn't gone, but it had been
27:53
Speaker 1: tried to remove from the wall.
27:56
Speaker 2: There's no gratitude in the world, right?
27:58
Speaker 1: Well, and that's what I thought at the time. But
28:01
Speaker 1: then I quickly thought to myself, well, hang on a second,
28:04
Speaker 1: you're just doing exactly the same thing. just on a
28:07
Speaker 1: completely different level. So, yeah, it was stranger than fiction,
28:14
Speaker 1: a lot of it. And I was all about experiences
28:18
Speaker 1: and I was always, always, always about experience. And they
28:22
Speaker 1: say when you've got money, you're just an extension of
28:26
Speaker 1: what you were without money. So it was always ever
28:28
Speaker 1: about a good time. And whether that sounds silly or not,
28:32
Speaker 1: I don't know. But, you know, like I say to people,
28:36
Speaker 1: if you want to do it, just go to the
28:38
Speaker 1: NAB at 12 o'clock and have a crack. You know
28:41
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like it's not– I didn't know what
28:44
Speaker 1: I was doing. Yeah.
28:47
Speaker 2: There was lots more decadence. There was trips to tropical islands.
28:50
Speaker 2: There was fulfilling everywhere. It was a boy's own adventure
28:54
Speaker 2: every day for you for four and a half months.
28:56
Speaker 2: But you kept expecting that this would end. The bank
28:59
Speaker 2: would eventually cotton on and someone would grab you, but
29:03
Speaker 2: it didn't happen that way. So you voluntarily stopped the transfers.
29:10
Speaker 2: You even put $ 80, 000 in a laundry bag from the
29:12
Speaker 2: hotel and and marched into the bank and tried to
29:16
Speaker 2: give it back to them. What did they say?
29:19
Speaker 1: Well, I'd amassed some friends and there was a lot
29:23
Speaker 1: of people sort of going around with me at the
29:25
Speaker 1: time and I did have a meeting with everyone and
29:27
Speaker 1: I said, hey, look, I'm going to stop doing this.
29:31
Speaker 1: And half the people tried to chop my head off
29:34
Speaker 1: and say, what are you talking about? This is the
29:36
Speaker 1: best time of our lives. How can you make stop
29:39
Speaker 1: this and i thought ultimately that every transaction i was
29:42
Speaker 1: just adding to my eventual prison sentence i'd fulfilled every
29:48
Speaker 1: dream that every wildest dream i'd ever had so to
29:51
Speaker 1: me it was over i felt like i was going
29:53
Speaker 1: to die i had a lot of anxiety towards the
29:56
Speaker 1: whole thing um but it was still saying that it
30:00
Speaker 1: was still fun as well so Yeah, I had to
30:04
Speaker 1: sort of make a call and go, look, that's it.
30:08
Speaker 1: So I announced to everyone I was with that it
30:11
Speaker 1: would be ending shortly. Ladies and gentlemen, last drinks at
30:14
Speaker 1: the bar, last games of pool. You know, like I said,
30:17
Speaker 1: that's it. And yeah, and then a lot of people
30:21
Speaker 1: just deserted me, of course. But look, I said through
30:26
Speaker 1: the whole thing that, you know, if you're going to
30:28
Speaker 1: come along for the ride, then you're definitely not going
30:31
Speaker 1: to be dragged into it. You know, that was something
30:34
Speaker 1: that was a... To me, it wasn't about sort of,
30:39
Speaker 1: you know, blaming or anything like that. It was like
30:41
Speaker 1: we were just people who wouldn't get the chance to
30:45
Speaker 1: experience something like that. And then we got the chance,
30:48
Speaker 1: so we acted like rock stars for a bit and,
30:52
Speaker 1: you know, got away with it. But, yeah, I didn't
30:54
Speaker 1: get away with it morally ever.
30:56
Speaker 2: No, you didn't. You see, you went to the bank
30:59
Speaker 2: with the bag full of cash and they went... Yeah, sorry, Adam,
31:05
Speaker 2: you said that.
31:06
Speaker 1: His beers are very good, nice beers. I was kidding.
31:10
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask the question again. So they wouldn't
31:13
Speaker 2: even take the money back, let alone have you arrested.
31:16
Speaker 1: No, that's right. They flatly said, you know, we can't
31:20
Speaker 1: take any money from you. I rang on the house
31:25
Speaker 1: phone and tried to speak to someone about it. They
31:28
Speaker 1: said they'd be in touch. They said that basically... like
31:32
Speaker 1: a bit of a school principal kind of vibe. I
31:37
Speaker 1: spoke to this guy named Bernie at the bank and
31:40
Speaker 1: he said that they would come and get me and
31:44
Speaker 1: just to sit tight, but I'd made a big mistake
31:47
Speaker 1: and my life was over basically. Yeah.
31:52
Speaker 2: And you stopped doing the transfers and you kept expecting
31:57
Speaker 2: that you would be arrested. Nothing happened.
32:00
Speaker 3: And.
32:01
Speaker 2: Nothing happened, nothing happened. And then I get this email
32:07
Speaker 2: out of the blue.
32:08
Speaker 1: I don't know who you are.
32:09
Speaker 2: And he's read one of my books or something and
32:12
Speaker 2: he wants to talk.
32:13
Speaker 1: To me about that.
32:13
Speaker 2: And I just thought, this must be bullshit.
32:16
Speaker 1: This must be.
32:16
Speaker 2: And I was driving on, I actually organized a call
32:19
Speaker 2: with Dan while I was driving to Sydney, actually not
32:22
Speaker 2: far from here. And he explained, I said, why on
32:26
Speaker 2: earth would you be telling me this? He said, well,
32:29
Speaker 2: two reasons. This is a story that needs to be told,
32:32
Speaker 2: but also I want to end this. Maybe in the
32:36
Speaker 2: future I want to have a life that's not waiting
32:40
Speaker 2: for the sword to fall on my head. And so
32:44
Speaker 2: can you help me? And I said, no, I don't
32:47
Speaker 2: want to help you. I want to help you. You've
32:49
Speaker 2: gotten away with this and you won't be thanking me
32:52
Speaker 2: when you get five years jail and your cellmate's making
32:55
Speaker 2: lovey-dovey eyes at you. You won't be thanking me then. Anyway,
32:58
Speaker 2: so we had a meeting in Melbourne and I refused
33:01
Speaker 2: and then he came back and he was literally falling apart.
33:04
Speaker 2: He really was. You could see this was not a person. See,
33:08
Speaker 2: the thing about these transfers was that he worked out
33:12
Speaker 2: he could do that $ 999, 000. He could transfer it overseas.
33:17
Speaker 2: He could have just left the country. But that would
33:20
Speaker 2: mean leaving his entire life behind, leaving his family, and
33:25
Speaker 2: his identity would be gone. So I reluctantly, in fact,
33:29
Speaker 2: I had a lawyer friend who checked the whole thing
33:32
Speaker 2: out for me and explained that really, in this case,
33:35
Speaker 2: he's just overdrawing his own account. He's not even really
33:37
Speaker 2: stealing the money. And the fact that they're not chasing
33:40
Speaker 2: him suggests that they probably absorbed the whole thing on insurance.
33:43
Speaker 2: And his professional opinion was that Dan should bless his
33:46
Speaker 2: luck and fuck off. And that was the quote, right?
33:49
Speaker 2: But that wasn't going to satisfy Dan. So I was
33:54
Speaker 2: then pushed into this situation where I was writing stories,
33:58
Speaker 2: one for the age, and we hired a jet and
34:02
Speaker 2: got him to sit there in the champagne and recreated
34:05
Speaker 2: some of the scenes and expected that they would arrest him.
34:08
Speaker 2: Didn't happen.
34:09
Speaker 1: Didn't happen.
34:10
Speaker 2: So then we did a story in a current affair
34:13
Speaker 2: and the executive producer, he used to be a policeman
34:17
Speaker 2: in New South Wales, organized someone to actually arrest you.
34:20
Speaker 2: I thought, thank God for that. We can finally get
34:22
Speaker 2: this resolved. And I was very fearful that this was
34:28
Speaker 2: going to be my responsibility, that you would get five
34:31
Speaker 2: years or more and this was going to mar your
34:34
Speaker 2: life forever. You were not of that view. And I
34:38
Speaker 2: think I began to understand what was driving me. And
34:42
Speaker 2: this is where you and I have something very similar, right?
34:45
Speaker 2: I talked earlier about my near-death experience, which gave me
34:48
Speaker 2: a kind of risk addiction. And I could tell that
34:51
Speaker 2: you were addicted to the risk of all this. that
34:54
Speaker 2: this day-to-day thing, working out what's going to happen next,
34:59
Speaker 2: how much prison time will I get? That was your addiction,
35:04
Speaker 2: and you needed to play the whole thing out. And
35:08
Speaker 2: I felt you could have had a better legal representation
35:11
Speaker 2: than no jail time at all. But you decided to
35:15
Speaker 2: plead guilty to the charges, and what did you get
35:19
Speaker 2: in the end?
35:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got a year in the end. Yeah, a
35:23
Speaker 1: year and 18 months community corrections order.
35:29
Speaker 2: And the remarkable thing is when you got to Port
35:31
Speaker 2: Phillip Prison, there was a particular warder who had been
35:37
Speaker 2: the man who had got up there in the watermark
35:39
Speaker 2: bar and said, let's drink on the bank. He was
35:44
Speaker 2: now a prison warder. Can you imagine that? Greeting him
35:47
Speaker 2: in jail. So you couldn't write that, right?
35:50
Speaker 3: Yeah.
35:51
Speaker 1: Yeah. I guess it's just a, you know, it's kind
35:56
Speaker 1: of a homage, I suppose, to how close, you know,
35:59
Speaker 1: like I wasn't in the criminal world, right? You weren't. So,
36:03
Speaker 1: you know, one of my friends, I remember when I
36:07
Speaker 1: told everyone what I could do and how I could
36:10
Speaker 1: do it, he said to me very loudly, he said, Dan,
36:16
Speaker 1: I'm an officer of the court, right? So he was out.
36:20
Speaker 1: So he said, no, I can't come on this, you know,
36:22
Speaker 1: journey as crazy as it's going to be. But that's how,
36:26
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't know anyone who was a criminal.
36:29
Speaker 1: Like I just knew, you know, like a chiropractor and
36:31
Speaker 1: a doctor, you know, like I didn't know, you know,
36:34
Speaker 1: the underworld. So, yeah, I mean, there was a few
36:38
Speaker 1: questions in there, Adam, but I think the reason I
36:41
Speaker 1: handed myself in is because I'd lost myself as a person. Oh, I.
36:47
Speaker 1: It's got nothing to do with having guilt towards the
36:50
Speaker 1: bank or I knew that I'd overstepped what I was
36:57
Speaker 1: okay with. And so it might look like, oh, geez, geez,
37:02
Speaker 1: you went pretty far before you went, oh, I don't
37:04
Speaker 1: know about this. But the point was that I knew
37:08
Speaker 1: that I was never going to get myself back if
37:10
Speaker 1: I didn't draw a line in the sand and go, no,
37:14
Speaker 1: that's it. I'm not going to be that. Right. So
37:18
Speaker 1: that's not, you know, I don't expect the people to
37:21
Speaker 1: nod at me and go, oh, that's really good. That
37:23
Speaker 1: was just my line. And I was like, I got
37:27
Speaker 1: to my line. I knew that I would, you know,
37:30
Speaker 1: I still go and, you know, pick my mum up
37:32
Speaker 1: and we go to the MCG and play footy, watch footy.
37:35
Speaker 1: And I'd never be able to do that. If I didn't,
37:40
Speaker 1: you know, if I had moved overseas and taken the
37:43
Speaker 1: money and gone elsewhere, yeah, okay, I would have eaten
37:46
Speaker 1: lobster on the beach for a while. But ultimately, I
37:49
Speaker 1: would have lost everything that I hold dear in my life,
37:52
Speaker 1: you know. And some days I sit at the MCG
37:54
Speaker 1: and it's cold and I think about Spain and I'm like, oh,
37:58
Speaker 1: it would have been pretty good. But, you know, the
38:01
Speaker 1: point is, the point I'm trying to make is that
38:04
Speaker 1: It was a line that I'd crossed for me and
38:07
Speaker 1: I was like, well, I've got to get myself back.
38:09
Speaker 1: And also, once you get away with something, you're like, oh,
38:12
Speaker 1: what else can I get away? You know, what else
38:15
Speaker 1: are they going to turn a blind eye to? Gee,
38:18
Speaker 1: I'm addicted to free money. That's amazing. Oh, this is
38:21
Speaker 1: another way I could get it or I could do
38:22
Speaker 1: this or I could do that. So, yeah, it was
38:25
Speaker 1: more drawing a line in the sand for myself really
38:28
Speaker 1: and going, well, no, things clearly escalated. And they got
38:33
Speaker 1: way out of hand. But this is an opportunity to,
38:37
Speaker 1: you know. And I remember my lawyer was like, you know,
38:40
Speaker 1: he walked in and he's like, can't help you. Can't
38:44
Speaker 1: help you. You've admitted it. National television. You've admitted it.
38:49
Speaker 1: Can't help you. It's not my fault.
38:52
Speaker 2: I didn't aid his defense by getting him to confess
38:55
Speaker 2: on television.
38:55
Speaker 1: But then I proceeded to talk to him about the
38:59
Speaker 1: point of what I was trying to do. And I
39:01
Speaker 1: don't know if you've ever explained something like that to
39:04
Speaker 1: a lawyer, but they don't understand what you're talking about.
39:08
Speaker 1: Their whole business is get away with it at all costs, right? So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
39:14
Speaker 1: so basically it was just getting myself back. It was
39:18
Speaker 1: making a line in the sand. I didn't want to
39:20
Speaker 1: get a knock on the door when I had a
39:23
Speaker 1: one-year-old kid five years later in a new relationship. You know,
39:28
Speaker 1: I wanted to just go, okay, this is it. and
39:31
Speaker 1: I'll move on. And, you know, to go to Port
39:34
Speaker 1: Phillip Prison, was like massive eye-opener like we're talking about
39:40
Speaker 1: big brother say what you can go to Port Phillip
39:43
Speaker 1: prison for a bit and go oh yeah you know
39:45
Speaker 1: like this is gonna be they call it Port Putrid
39:48
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you what they were pretty spot-on it
39:50
Speaker 1: was yeah it was cold it was horrible The only
39:54
Speaker 1: thing that saved me is not getting locked up with
39:56
Speaker 1: the wrong person. So if you're locked in a cell
39:59
Speaker 1: overnight with the wrong person, then you definitely... Someone like
40:03
Speaker 1: me is not violent. You definitely get, you know, sort
40:06
Speaker 1: of assaulted and, you know, even worse.
40:10
Speaker 2: We're sharing a room tonight, by the way. I hope
40:12
Speaker 2: we're going to be okay. Make it a flashback, yeah?
40:15
Speaker 1: At this stage, if anyone wants to save me, please do. Yeah. So, yeah, it's...
40:22
Speaker 1: When you go into prison like that, I remember there
40:26
Speaker 1: was a moment that I was like, oh, shit, okay,
40:31
Speaker 1: this whole year is going to be real. When a
40:35
Speaker 1: guy comes up to me, he comes bounding up to me,
40:38
Speaker 1: and he goes, hey, have you met Julian? I'm like, no, no,
40:44
Speaker 1: should I have? And he says, yeah, yeah, come and
40:47
Speaker 1: meet him. Come and meet him. He's a lifer. I'm like, oh, yeah, great.
40:52
Speaker 1: I walk up to where Julian is. Julian's reading The Australian, like,
40:56
Speaker 1: you know, like it's just another day. And he goes, oh, yeah, hi,
41:00
Speaker 1: I'm Julian. And so I'm shaking hands with him and
41:03
Speaker 1: I look into his eyes and I'm like, this is
41:07
Speaker 1: Julian Knight. This is the guy that killed seven people
41:12
Speaker 1: in Hoddle Street one night.
41:14
Speaker 2: But if we roll back to 2011, knowing what you
41:19
Speaker 2: know now, you're standing there in the rain at the ATM...
41:22
Speaker 2: outside the Bull's Head Tavern, would you do the same thing?
41:27
Speaker 1: Oh, it's a very hard decision where you do the
41:29
Speaker 1: same thing. Knowing what I know now, probably not. But
41:34
Speaker 1: if I was in the same mindset as I was then, yeah, probably.
41:39
Speaker 1: I mean, you see ATM glitches all around the world, right?
41:43
Speaker 1: So there was one in Ireland and there's literally police
41:47
Speaker 1: on the loudspeaker saying, step away from the ATM, right? So...
41:52
Speaker 1: It's an incredibly addictive thing to get money for nothing
41:56
Speaker 1: and be able to spend it and be rich all
41:58
Speaker 1: of a sudden. It's a very hard carrot to step
42:01
Speaker 1: away from. Yeah, it's got some honey on it.
42:04
Speaker 2: Because I did feel that you wanted to tell the
42:05
Speaker 2: story because it was such an extraordinary story and that
42:08
Speaker 2: it would not be repeated again. So hard question. But
42:13
Speaker 2: you can take some questions now, but don't ask him
42:17
Speaker 2: how to do it yourself, okay? That's the one thing
42:18
Speaker 2: I would ask you.
42:20
Speaker 1: Some questions? Yes. Actually, Dan, I have a question. Just
42:24
Speaker 1: be gentle. But I just want to say to anyone,
42:26
Speaker 1: you can ask any question you want, even if you
42:28
Speaker 1: think it's going to annoy me or it's going to
42:30
Speaker 1: upset me, like you're more than welcome to ask because
42:33
Speaker 1: I'm more than happy to answer anything.
42:34
Speaker 3: I was just going to ask, what's taking on friendship?
42:39
Speaker 1: Friendship? Yeah. I think it's great. It's a good question.
42:48
Speaker 1: I reckon that ultimately when there's stakes involved, people do
42:52
Speaker 1: move there. It'd be an interesting experiment, right? So if
42:56
Speaker 1: you've got money, it would be interesting to take away
43:00
Speaker 1: that money and see who would be left. It would
43:04
Speaker 1: be interesting. And it's not essentially something you are able
43:08
Speaker 1: to do in your life there wouldn't be a place
43:11
Speaker 1: you know not many people get to the point where
43:14
Speaker 1: they're bankrupt and then their whole financial position changes in
43:18
Speaker 1: their life so some people you will never know but
43:21
Speaker 1: essentially i think there are people in your life that
43:23
Speaker 1: will just stick there because of your financial means and
43:27
Speaker 1: and that's not necessarily you know the way that you
43:31
Speaker 1: want to see things but i think that's the truth
43:32
Speaker 1: yeah i think I think people, there's definitely a vested
43:37
Speaker 1: interest in the way you are or what you have. But, yeah,
43:41
Speaker 1: it was interesting to lose everything and go to jail,
43:45
Speaker 1: you know, not for a crime where you hurt anyone else,
43:50
Speaker 1: you know, in a way, in a physical way or,
43:53
Speaker 1: you know, you didn't do anything to anyone. So, yeah,
43:56
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting. It kind of, yeah, it was
44:00
Speaker 1: interesting to see who stuck around and who stayed. Thanks, Dan.
44:05
Speaker 1: My name is Ken. I'm from Chilwell. I thought you
44:10
Speaker 1: were from Ocean Grove a second ago.
44:13
Speaker 2: He's moved.
44:13
Speaker 1: Wayne just here. It was amazing to hear your story.
44:19
Speaker 1: It was really good. And two very quick questions. I'm
44:23
Speaker 1: guessing you don't have an NAB card any longer and
44:28
Speaker 1: can I buy you a beer? You can. Can I
44:32
Speaker 1: address the good news first? You can definitely buy me
44:34
Speaker 1: a beer. Thank you so much. It's a billion up there.
44:38
Speaker 1: What sort of beer do you want? It all comes
44:40
Speaker 1: from the same fresh line, so I'm happy with anything.
44:43
Speaker 2: Okay.
44:45
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sorry, what was the first question? I get excited
44:48
Speaker 1: when I hear beer. Do you have an NAB credit card? No, no,
44:53
Speaker 1: there's no NAB credit card. I have not made any
44:56
Speaker 1: attempt to get any more NAB cards. but I think
45:00
Speaker 1: I know the answer.
45:01
Speaker 2: You have a question? Oh, I mean, yeah.
45:07
Speaker 1: I'm Julie. Hi, I'm Julie from Bright. I'm wondering, when
45:13
Speaker 1: you first heard.
45:14
Speaker 2: Of money, how did you explain where did you get
45:16
Speaker 2: it from to all the people around you that knew
45:20
Speaker 2: you so well that you had $ 3 in your account?
45:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I didn't go around spruiking that I had
45:26
Speaker 1: only $ 3 in my account all the time. That was
45:29
Speaker 1: definitely something I kept to myself. But, yeah, it was
45:39
Speaker 1: an interesting thing where some people were just happy not
45:44
Speaker 1: to know. So I remember my friend Mark, who I
45:47
Speaker 1: spoke about at the start, he was like, I don't
45:50
Speaker 1: know what you're into, Dan. I'm going to come for
45:52
Speaker 1: the free beers, but I don't want to know anything.
45:57
Speaker 1: When the cops turn up, I don't want to know
45:59
Speaker 1: anything and I want to truthfully say that, so don't
46:01
Speaker 1: tell me anything about it. And then other people wanted
46:04
Speaker 1: to know straight away. Other people I told I want
46:07
Speaker 1: to be quaddie. Other people that I just met, I
46:10
Speaker 1: told them I was a poker player traveling to Australia for,
46:16
Speaker 1: you know, some tournament. Yeah, I– oh, jeez, it sounds
46:21
Speaker 1: awful now, but, yeah, I used to tell– Women, I
46:25
Speaker 1: was like a doctor and stuff. That was awful. It
46:30
Speaker 1: was horrible, yeah. But, yeah. Okay, back here.
46:33
Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Lara.
46:34
Speaker 1: Hello.
46:45
Speaker 3: I was curious, you talked earlier about recognising that everyone
46:48
Speaker 3: has that dream of what would I do.
46:49
Speaker 1: If I won a million.
46:50
Speaker 3: I was wondering now what your relationship with that dream is,
46:54
Speaker 3: if you ever still think it would be great to
46:56
Speaker 3: have a lot of money again or if you're just
46:58
Speaker 3: done with it?
47:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I was done with it for a
47:03
Speaker 1: long time. I think that I basically, I did everything
47:09
Speaker 1: I dreamt of. So for me it was kind of
47:12
Speaker 1: like it was done. But now I'm starting to realise
47:16
Speaker 1: that money is actually a really good foundation and it's
47:19
Speaker 1: really good to have a little bit. So I've taken
47:22
Speaker 1: a bit of a different stance on that. But I
47:24
Speaker 1: guess I've just evolved with it. So I've just become, yeah,
47:28
Speaker 1: I take it pretty seriously now compared with how it
47:32
Speaker 1: was before. But, yeah, definitely I wouldn't say I'm not
47:36
Speaker 1: a catch, put it that way. I'm not sitting on
47:38
Speaker 1: a villa in Spain or anything. Yeah. But, yeah, it's
47:43
Speaker 1: definitely a lot easier with money and a foundation. And
47:49
Speaker 1: it's actually really important to be the person you want
47:52
Speaker 1: to be because it ultimately gives you freedom. We have
47:54
Speaker 1: a question down here.
47:56
Speaker 3: Sorry if I've missed it, but how old were you
47:59
Speaker 3: in the 70s?
48:01
Speaker 1: I was 17 and just crazy and young. No, I
48:05
Speaker 1: was 29. I'd like to say I was younger, but
48:08
Speaker 1: I was 29.
48:09
Speaker 3: One more.
48:15
Speaker 1: Question. Yes. Is the movie happening? Is the movie happening?
48:23
Speaker 1: Movies are stupid things, really. I mean, it takes so
48:28
Speaker 1: much to get. a movie to happen. Now I've had
48:32
Speaker 1: Skypes or Zooms with movie stars who've said that I
48:36
Speaker 1: want to play you. And, yeah, I just have no idea.
48:41
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I have no direct line to Hollywood.
48:44
Speaker 1: I don't have any kind of– they tell me it's happening, but,
48:49
Speaker 1: you know, two or three companies tell me it's happening.
48:51
Speaker 1: So it's not something I worry about. It's not something
48:55
Speaker 1: I have an attachment to. If it happens, it happens.
48:59
Speaker 1: I think it would be a funny movie and I
49:02
Speaker 1: hope it would be kind of, you know, have a
49:04
Speaker 1: lighter side to it because it is such a, you know,
49:08
Speaker 1: we all have money, we all have dreams, and I
49:11
Speaker 1: think that you could tap into that really well in
49:13
Speaker 1: a movie, so it might be like a good rollercoaster
49:15
Speaker 1: of a movie. But in terms of whether they're going
49:18
Speaker 1: to do it or not, I have no idea. Yeah,
49:23
Speaker 1: what are you doing now with your life can you
49:25
Speaker 1: just say that again now I just travel around to
49:29
Speaker 1: little pubs across Australia and um yeah try and make
49:33
Speaker 1: people laugh at what I say No, I sell building
49:38
Speaker 1: estimating for a company called Buildmetric that does estimates for
49:43
Speaker 1: new houses and multi-res. So I'm a salesman and sometimes
49:50
Speaker 1: I call people up and I say, oh, I'm Dan
49:52
Speaker 1: from Buildmetric. And they say, oh, I just listened to
49:55
Speaker 1: your podcast. And I was like, oh, can we talk
49:58
Speaker 1: less about that? Because they record all the calls. I'm
50:02
Speaker 1: just trying not to get fired basically.
50:05
Speaker 3: One more, Adam, do you think?
50:06
Speaker 1: Time for one more?
50:07
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, first one out here.
50:09
Speaker 1: Question?
50:11
Speaker 3: Anyone?
50:12
Speaker 1: Anyone?
50:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. What I hope, I've dealt with a lot of
50:17
Speaker 2: people over many years who have that one story that
50:20
Speaker 2: they live, and I always say to them, one day
50:24
Speaker 2: you'll have to stop telling that story. And there is
50:27
Speaker 2: a time after that, and I sincerely hope, because I
50:29
Speaker 2: always saw in you that you weren't this recidivist crook
50:33
Speaker 2: that I've dealt with in so many other stories over
50:36
Speaker 2: the years. And I really hope that I guess that
50:38
Speaker 2: you find the story beyond this, because the problem is
50:42
Speaker 2: the way the story is portrayed, it's always about the
50:46
Speaker 2: hookers and the coke and the good times, when really
50:51
Speaker 2: this is a story that I think speaks to some
50:55
Speaker 2: deep problems in our society, about gambling, about risk, and
50:59
Speaker 2: that I hope that finally comes to the fore and
51:02
Speaker 2: that you can use the balance of your time to
51:07
Speaker 2: explain to people that, yes, it was a great time.
51:11
Speaker 2: In the end, the party does end.
51:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a funny one. I mean... I
51:22
Speaker 1: was more than happy to put this story to bed.
51:24
Speaker 1: I mean, it keeps sort of coming up. People keep
51:28
Speaker 1: talking to me about it. People want to go, oh,
51:31
Speaker 1: let's do a book about it. There will be a
51:33
Speaker 1: book about it. So there's a book that's going to
51:36
Speaker 1: be printed by Simon & Schuster in the new year. So, yeah,
51:40
Speaker 1: it kind of just keeps sort of coming up. I
51:43
Speaker 1: compartmentalise it. So I don't walk into my job now going, oh,
51:49
Speaker 1: I'm the ATM guy. So I just address it when
51:53
Speaker 1: it comes. So, yeah, I've been able to differentiate the
51:58
Speaker 1: two pretty easily. So it's not I don't see myself
52:01
Speaker 1: as being a depiction of four months of my life
52:04
Speaker 1: and that was it. I see myself as just being
52:07
Speaker 1: Dan and, you know, things happen and, you know, this
52:11
Speaker 1: one they just keep bringing it up. I don't know why.
52:14
Speaker 1: It's my fault. Yeah, probably. But yeah, I just keep
52:18
Speaker 1: sort of, I'm happy to speak about it. I don't
52:22
Speaker 1: mind talking about it. I don't think I'm special. I
52:25
Speaker 1: think the fact that the story's gone so far is
52:28
Speaker 1: the fact that it could happen to any of us
52:30
Speaker 1: at any time. I feel like the bank didn't want
52:35
Speaker 1: to prosecute me. So I'm like, what did I actually find?
52:39
Speaker 1: You know, what flaw inside the system did I actually
52:42
Speaker 1: figure out that they weren't willing to admit what it was?
52:46
Speaker 2: And how many people did exactly what you did and
52:49
Speaker 2: didn't confess?
52:51
Speaker 1: Yeah.
52:52
Speaker 2: That's what I think about it.
52:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, like I think we're able to.
52:56
Speaker 2: I'm waiting for their calls.
52:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I don't think we need to reiterate at
52:59
Speaker 1: the end. I think we've established I'm the dumbest person
53:01
Speaker 1: in the room. I don't think you needed to do
53:03
Speaker 1: that right at the end. But, yeah, it's your show. Anyway.
53:08
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure to be with you guys tonight.
53:10
Speaker 2: Thanks once again to Sally for having the foresight and
53:14
Speaker 2: the dash to do this. And thanks to Hilary as
53:18
Speaker 2: well from Turnip Media who's put this on tonight. I
53:20
Speaker 2: want to thank you all for coming. You've come from
53:22
Speaker 2: far and wide. It's been a great night and we'll
53:24
Speaker 2: do it again really soon. Thank you so much. Thanks
53:32
Speaker 2: once again to Sally Wright at the Stanley Pub and
53:34
Speaker 2: Hilary McNevin of Turnip Media for organising the night. If
53:38
Speaker 2: you'd like to have me in your town, please get
53:40
Speaker 2: in touch on adamshandwriter at gmail.com. You can also find
53:45
Speaker 2: me on Facebook. If you have a crime to report,
53:47
Speaker 2: please call Crime Stoppers on 1-800-333-000. This has been Adam
53:53
Speaker 2: Shand on the road for real crime. Thanks for listening.
54:04
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
54:07
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54:11
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54:14
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54:21
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