Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Using wealth management to tackle the climate and nature crisis – Yan Swiderski, the Global Returns Project

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Using wealth management to tackle the climate and nature crisis – Yan Swiderski, the Global Returns Project · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life Podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advice.
• 0:17
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• 0:25
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• 0:29
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• 0:38
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_04: It's me, Charlie Scott, and to those of you listening, you might not know my voice, but I am new here, just hosting, wanting to talk about all the important things relating to sustainable investing.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_04: I've got Jan Swodersky with me today from the Global Returns Project to tell you everything about what they're doing, and it's amazing.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_04: I'm so excited to have you on here.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, Jan, I guess, you know, firstly, tell me a bit about yourself and how you came to be part of the Global Returns Project.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Hi hi, Charlie.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Nice to nice, nice to talk to you, and it's great to be here today.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for asking me.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I suppose my background is finance.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I used to be a fund manager for a long time, and uh I retired from that to run an organic farm.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I've always been very interested in um the environment and natural systems, and from my financial background, also what's going on in the world.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that inevitably sort of led me to getting quite concerned about environmental degradation, climate change in particular, but also other earth systems which interact with climate and are our natural life support systems.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I just thought, well, this is actually getting quite bad, and we need to do something about it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems that governments, for a whole variety of reasons we can talk about, are not doing enough.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I, you know, I just can't stand by and and do nothing.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and I was sort of writing a kind of, I suppose, a newsletter to a series of friends.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: I had about 120 people on my mailing list about environmental topics which were of interest to me.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And one of my friends, Jasper, who's now a trustee of the Global Returns Project and is you know one of the executives involved in running it, said to me, Well, you know, you keep sending me all this really terrifying stuff.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: What are we actually going to do about it?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Which I thought was a really good challenge.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um here we are today.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we we we set it set it up about uh three years ago, but quite a lot of the time has been spent on doing research, both climate research and behavioral research, uh, and and putting together a really good team of advisors and and a lot of the background work.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose we we we we ran we ran a pilot project which gave us good encouragement about um that we should go ahead.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um and and we we sort of launched our our, if you like, our main concept of symbiotic wealth management or symbiotic investment in autumn of last year.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I love that term symbiotic wealth management.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_04: As someone who's I actually studied sustainable development and a little bit of zoology once upon a time.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_04: And to have symbiotic, you know, a biosciences term in many ways that I've always known it, to meet up with wealth management.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_04: And it is a mutually beneficial relationship, the symbiotic wealth management.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_04: So um, yeah, dive into that in a bit more detail then.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think the idea is that if we look at how people manage their wealth and how they think about their wealth, you know, traditionally, um perhaps people invested without really having great regard for the environmental effects of what their investments were doing.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: But now we know that every investment has an impact.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you put your money in the bank, the bank does something with that money, and it'll be either good or bad.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if you invest in a company, those, you know, the activities of that company will will be good or bad, in many cases, quite bad, and and so on.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so every investment has an impact.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we've seen this tremendous growth in you know, sustainable investment and you know, ESG, which is which is a kind of you know, bit of jargon surrounding sustainable investment.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: The idea is that um there is there is a step beyond that, which we call regenerative investments, which are uh the activities of not-for-profit organizations.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um the thing is that there aren't market solutions for um a lot of these problems.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, so market, you know, market mechanisms can only take you so far, but there are a whole range of problems which markets cannot address.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: So they can't, for example, sue polluters.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's no real, there's no effective market mechanism for protecting some of the the fragile ecosystems, which are important carbon sinks.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: There are no real market mechanisms for getting renewable energy to the poorest people who who who live today without energy, and there are a billion people who on the planet who live without access to power.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if you can get clean sustainable energy first rather than a diesel generator, that obviously makes a huge difference and so on.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so these are regenerative investments in the sense that that you are you are supporting these projects, there isn't a financial return, but there is a global return.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and that return is real and identifiable.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and the symbiotic element comes into the fact that the idea is that you pair a sustainable portfolio with um a small allocation to these regenerative investments, and that relationship is symbiotic because it's only through the activities and supporting and funding a lot of these not-for-profit organizations that we can really protect and enhance the biosphere.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you know, in an ideal world, government policy would do all this, but they're not doing it.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and so, you know, we need we need new ways of thinking, new approaches.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, some people might say, well, why would I as an investor do this?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a rational thing to do, in the sense that if we protect and enhance the biosphere, then all of our investments are less risky.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the that's the underlying concept behind symbiotic wealth management.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, you touched there that government policy is is something which we people campaign for it, people use their voice to try and achieve that.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_04: But choosing to put your money and investing your money somewhere almost takes that power back and gives you the control.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_04: It makes you know that you're doing something that you can do to help.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I guess you know, touching upon the portfolio then, I know you've got some very exciting portfolio uh partners um as part of the global returns project.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_04: So, how did you go about choosing your portfolio partners?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, that's a very good question.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and it sort of touches on, you know, what's the mechanics of this?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: What does it actually mean to do symbiotic investment or you know, be a symbiotic investor?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the idea is that your existing portfolio will generate a financial return.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if some tiny portion of that, and you know, investors are doing something like a quarter of a percent of their portfolio per annum, uh, which is a which is an amount which is not going to make any difference to anybody's life.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: But if enough people do it, it will make a really material difference to um, well, to the whole, the whole um, a lot of these problems.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and so what you do is the idea is that you make that allocation, but most people wouldn't know you know how to choose those projects or what they are.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so the behavioral research we did was all about removing friction.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can make it easy, if you can just make it a sort of tick box, an automatic thing that's easy to do, then the chances of many more people doing this would go up significantly.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we've done is we've put together uh a process for identifying and researching some of the best climate not-for-profits, and then we manage that portfolio, so that group of not-for-profits with a with a sort of fund management mindset.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what I mean by that is that we monitor what they're doing and we report on it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so and so what we do is we we um find organizations which are working on some of the critical problems, and we um obviously they need to be you know well-run, properly governed, effective organizations.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: But then after that, we we we we look at various um scoring uh metrics to decide, you know, how how do we know that this one is better than that one at doing, you know, rainforest protection, for example.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so what we do is we look at what we look at their impact.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: So how much CO2 are they actually sequestering or averting?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we look at their scalability, can this be scaled up?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And do they have the ambition and the capability to increase their activities if they get more funding?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we look at their networks, so so how well they cooperate with either um indigenous communities or government networks or alliances with with other organizations.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then we look at co-benefits, which are you know desirable outcomes, which may not be the primary purpose for that organization, but which are good things which will flow from from what they're doing.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so looking at those four factors, we we give each of them a score, and only the highest scoring organizations will get into our portfolio.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a sort of cutoff, and also it it's a small but growing number.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing we do is we look at the diversity of the portfolio.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: So so what we've done is we've said, okay, so what are all the possible things that not-for-profit organizations could do with regard to climate and nature?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, nature, it's an interesting.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: They're so intertwined, aren't they?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: We can't just make that.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's an inter interrelated problem, as you say, they're completely intertwined.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and and so we say, okay, what are all the possible things that not-for-profit organizations can do?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: So what is our total opportunity set, if you like?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and then we we we give the portfolio diversity score.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: So what we say is how many of those possible activities are currently in the portfolio?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And at the moment, that is around 65% of all the of all the activities that we've identified, and that's the diversity score.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end, that produces like a figure which we call the global returns rate, and that's just like our shorthand way of saying you know, there is a methodical process, it's applied consistently across organizations, we do it every six months, and and this is our number to summarize um the output from that process.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, we publish an impact report with with you know a lot more detail than than what I've just explained.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that that is how the portfolio is, if you like, you know, put together and function.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how it functions.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think being able to produce a global returns rate as well, it shows people what that contribution, what the difference is that they've made by giving that contribution.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_04: And to be able to see these not-for-profits go from success to like success and growing what they're doing.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_04: And all it's taken is, you know, if it was just a tick of a box from someone in a fund management office making, okay, yeah, we'll we'll give it to the Global Returns Project, to then know that somewhere there's a rainforest that's being protected with a huge, very core function in protecting the biodiversity there.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: But it took, you know, a quarter of a percent, which is amazing, um, in my opinion.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: And so you said that it's a small number.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_04: So how long does it take to get a portfolio partner on board that process?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um, I mean, it takes it sometimes it's quicker, sometimes it's slower.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we only have six organizations in the portfolio at the moment, and and over time that will grow as our activities grow.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I mean it it takes a number of a number of months.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because we obviously need to do our research.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: They need to be happy that um, you know, they're gonna be happy to work with us and and give us the reporting that we need.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we have to sign a grant agreement with them to make sure that the money gets applied in the way that that donors you know expect it to.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's also a lot of research.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are lots of organizations we've looked at, um, I mean, I think we've looked at over 150 organizations now.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so so it's hard to say exactly how long it takes, but but I suppose the the objectives of the portfolio are to tackle what we call the the the fundamental uh um UN sustainable development goals.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: So so um you know a lot of people are familiar with the framework of the UN sustainable development goals, and there's you know that there's a whole series of them.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: There are, I think, 17 altogether.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um there's a there's a guy called Johann Rockstrom, who's a uh uh an earth system scientist, and when he when he was at the um Stockholm Resilience Center, they came up with this hierarchy.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because what he said was people people treat the the so the sustainable goals like a smorgasbord, they just pick and choose the ones they like.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, the ones that you appeal.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and the thing is that you can't really do that, is what he said, because he said there are there are four fundamental ones, which are the environmental sustainable development goals, which are clean water and sanitation, climate action, life underwater, and life on land.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, his his comment during this conference was if if you can't achieve those four goals, then all of the others become unachievable or extremely hard to achieve.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we think of them as the fundamental SDGs.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and the Global Returns Fund, as we call our portfolio, is designed to address three of those fundamental SDGs, which are climate action, life below water, and life on land.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and all of these organizations are doing something to protect and enhance um though you know those elements of the biosphere and achieve, you know, help us achieve those SDGs.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So so it convert, you know, and this is sort of direct impact.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like you know, there are there are there are lots of you know funds or companies who might say, well, we're we're doing a bit less harm in this area, or we're achieving certain social outcomes.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas it with the Global Returns Fund, this has direct positive impact, which is real and identifiable.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_04: And those, you know, climate action and life below water and life on land, without any of that, nothing else would be possible.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_04: You know, investing your money elsewhere wouldn't be sustainable because we've got such a short crunch time with climate that it needs to be the spotlight needs to be on climate right now, it needs to be on biodiversity because the long-term gains of other investments are definitely going to be impacted as we move forward with this.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and so from that point of view, you know, making that choice is a completely rational thing to do.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because in the in the you know, in the medium term, in the long term, unless we um you know protect our earth systems, um then none of our investments, and in fact, no human activity is is really going to be sustainable.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I I said earlier I was feeling a bit gloomy, and and it and it's not just because of events in Ukraine at the moment, but you know, this um IPCC sixth assessment report is that just yesterday, and you know, there was a a phrase in there which really you know stuck in my mind, which is that you know the scientific evidence is unequivocal, any further delay will miss a brief opportunity to secure a livable future.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but that's that's approximately what they said, and and these are the world's you know top scientists telling us this.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, so our view is that there are lots of people out there who who who would like greater agency in this and be able to say, well, what can I actually do?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we think that um, you know, becoming a symbiotic investor, making a that small allocation to the global returns fund would be something which a lot of people would happily do if they knew about it.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why we're here trying to get the word out.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_04: Definitely and getting the word out as well, you know, particularly to the community of the Financial Planner Life podcast, you know, these people meet with clients on a daily basis, discuss what their goals are, and particularly as you know, financial advice is going to change over the next you know few generations coming through.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I know particularly for people from my generation, putting your money into somewhere where they know where it's going, they know the impact it's having is becoming a lot more popular.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: And obviously, ESG and sustainable investment gets thrown around a lot, but the fact that you so thoroughly vet what your portfolio involves and it's so quantifiable the benefits they can have with these NGOs, it's almost like a no-brainer, isn't it?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like you can just say, yes, take my money because you know it's going to go somewhere well, and you know the returns are going to be far greater than what money can give.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, clearly um the returns are non-financial, and and some people might um sort of question that.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: But our point is that this is just a new, we need a new way of thinking in order to um address these these problems today.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: And this is one of them.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is that you know, we did some research on um, you know, how effective is this?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: How does, you know, how much difference does it actually make?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we looked at, you know, what all these organizations have achieved in the last couple of years and and you know, try to measure their their climate impact.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's not even counting the the co-benefits of the you know, the other desirable benefits of the things they do.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And what we found is that this is multiple times more effective for an individual than pretty much anything else they can do in terms of being able to donate um you know that tiny proportion to this collection of not-for-profit organizations.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: So so isn't it?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like better than donating to this, better than it's just a whole encompassed package, really, isn't it?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_04: I guess you know, should we dive into a bit more about who your portfolio partners are then?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: Because I know there's some very interesting organizations which also definitely deserve sort of a bit of a spotlight on them as well.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, so um, I mean that there are there are six, as I mentioned.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the first one, um I mean might as well go alphabetically.
• 20:49
  unknown: Let's do it.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Ashton um is an organization which runs uh I think called the Ashton Awards.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And what they do is they identify organizations and projects which are delivering clean, sustainable energy um to um various you know parts of the world.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, traditionally they've done a lot of work in in the global south, but they're increasingly doing more work in the UK, and what they do is they identify initiatives which can be scaled up and also can be um applied to other countries as well, and they help those organizations make connections, funding, and with you know greater application of the work they've been doing.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they can be anything from you know solar, small scale solar panels in the Yemen to electric powered tuktuks in um India to um you know uh more efficient food management so that so that um you know reducing food waste in in Of supply chains.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a whole variety of things that they're now working, doing a lot of work actually now with schools.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: To um, if you think about all the schools, uh there are, you know, they they all have a carbon footprint and getting ways to you know reduce that, which at the same time has an educational value um in terms of you know what the you know all all the the children participating in those in those projects.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Then there's client earth, which is our second um one moving alphabetically, um and client earth, a really interesting organization.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: They have they're a um a group of lawyers, and they regard the earth as their client.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And they are completely you know funded um pro bono.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: So so all of their work is is is funded by donors, and they have they operate in, I think about over 40 countries now.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and they they've done some major, you know, they've had some major achievements.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: So for instance, the reason we have an ultra-low emission zone in London is because they successfully sued the UK government three times for not implementing their own anti-pollution laws.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_04: I like high and earth.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, high and earth sound great.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they were instrumental in getting the Polish government to agree to close down the largest single carbon dioxide emitter in Europe, which is a big power station in eastern Poland.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: They got the Greek government to agree to phase out uh a lignite uh coal power station in Greece, and and they've agreed a phase out policy for the second one as well, using EU competition law.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then um they're doing loads of work in, well, they're doing a lot of work in lots of countries, but what I also think is really interesting is they're, for example, training Chinese prosecutors to on how to implement the new environmental laws which they're bringing in in China.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, they were involved in helping with the policy around those laws, and now they they've trained over 1,500 Chinese prosecutors.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the kind of work they're doing, which is, and the impact of that is actually dramatic because they're changing systems and changing the way people do things and the way that people think about the law, which is really good.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Then another one would be Global Canopy, and they're a really interesting group as well.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: They do data analysis of supply chains, and you might think, well, that's you know, that sounds a bit obscure.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, how does that help?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so a lot of supply chains are responsible for deforestation pressure.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: So all of that demand for palm oil, for soy, for um coffee, um, for timber puts puts pressure on um rainforests principally, and and and is is a is is a commercial incentive for deforestation, and and deforestation rates are still extraordinarily high.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so what this does is it shines a light on that on that on the on those supply chains.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a they have various web-based tools which are which are open to all you know to access.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's one called Trace.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's another one whose name I can't quite I can't quite remember, forgive me.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: But basically what it is, if you're a if you're a purchasing manager for a company, if you're an investor in that company, if you're an NGO trying to put pressure on that company, you can actually identify products and where they're coming from, and you know, down to the level of which province in Brazil or which part of Indonesia, and and actually say, well, you know, we you know, we don't like these elements of the supply chain.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, if you change this or you change that, it would it would reduce that deforestation pressure.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, it's very hard to do things to change systems without good data and global canopy, you know, provide that data.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_04: What a resource as well, because you could have a supply chain and not even really have an awareness of the impact you're actually having.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_04: Trace that back and say, no, no, no, we could get that from you know, maybe somewhere in in the UK or Europe and not necessarily destroy the Amazon for this product.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's really great.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then um the next one would be Rainforest Trust, and they kind of do what it sounds like they do, they protect rainforests, but they do it in a way that is um you know by working with local communities uh to make sure that um you know those communities have some sort of interest in continuing to protect those rainforests.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And in some cases it involves outright purchase, in other cases it involves just defending the rights of those communities and and and and the the you know establishing legal frameworks for those communities to carry on protecting them.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, it's it's specific to each situation and each country, but they're an incredibly effective organization and they operate in um, I'd like to say nearly 50 countries, I think, but obviously those countries that have you know rainforest and other and other you know important habitats which are which are all also you know, apart from being stores of carbon, many of them are actually carbon sinks as well.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And and generally speaking, you know, if you're looking at a solution rather than a systemic change, you know, protecting rainforests is one of the most effective things you can do.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and rainforests, you know, conservation and biodiversity are such crucial factors to consider because they're an indication of a healthy ecosystem.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, when you've got climate change occurring and you've got biodiversity being threatened, we need to protect the rainforest for more than one reason.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's really, really great that they help with the local community because that's going to be a long-term sustainable growth within the community, because you want them to protect their community and them to have the passion about it and for it to become a generational protection and pride.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_04: And really, you know, quite a lot of these communities, there's so many factors that come into why they feel like they want to or why they feel like they can't, but there's also so many external factors not from their country making these areas um at risk.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, rainforest trust, yeah, really great, really cool.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and the other interesting thing about them is that at the moment there is a there is a match funder who is who is match funding um up to, well, the exact amount um remaining I'm not clear about, but um, when we last looked at it, there was about 40 million dollars worth of match funding still available.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: So so it certainly still applies.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So to the extent anyone makes a contribution to them, it gets match funded.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that makes that obviously double doubly effective.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um then the next organization is Trillion Trees, which is a um collaboration between the Wildlife Conservation Society, the World Wildlife Fund, and Bird Life International.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a joint venture, and they operate in over 50 countries, I know.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they have um there's one project which we're supporting called the Reforest Fund.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: So they're basically trying to uh regenerate degraded rainforests by planting you know the right trees in the right places, yeah, and once again making sure that those local communities are involved in that so that the there's some permanence to the to that intervention.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, this is an incredibly effective uh intervention because obviously degraded land has has you know released a lot of soil carbon, a lot of the carbon that was sequestered in the woody biomass has been released.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can restore that, particularly you know, in in a way that's that's properly protected in the tropics, it obviously tends to grow very fast, but you're restoring the carbon cycle, you're restoring the water cycle, um, you're supporting biodiversity, and you're in many cases, you know, helping local communities as well.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then the the last one is uh whale and dolphin conservation, uh, which is obviously you know life underwater, but what perhaps many people may not know is the importance of um you know marine ecosystems in the carbon cycle, and uh which is huge, and and and clearly a properly functioning marine ecosystem is a critical component of the earth's carbon cycle and and and you know water cycle as well.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: But but um you know there's good evidence uh to suggest there are various reports that have been done on the the role of great whales in sequestering carbon and the the the mechanism uh which is which which is which um goes on is that they through their bodily functions they're circulating nutrients and uh fertilizing marine phytoplankton, which are photosynthesizing it at massive scale.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, there are studies that suggest the great whale uh could be responsible for sequestering as much as 250 tons of CO2 per annum.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: So so it, I mean, that the there are ranges of uncertainty around that number, but what we can say with certainty is you know, the more whales we have, the more large uh cetaceans that we have, the more uh carbon is likely to be sequestered within the the um you know marine carbon cycle.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and and the sequestration happens because you know the the a lot of the the the plankton uh and also the zooplankton who who are the next bit up the food chain will when they die their bodies you know will fall as sediment to the bottom of the ocean, or a good number of them.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: But also the whales, when they die on average, they they fall to the deep ocean and their their body has you know carbon in their in their in their skeletons, and that takes you know many, many years, if not millennia, depending how how deep they go, uh, for that for that carbon to be released again.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's also a critical part of what they're doing.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the those are the six organizations, and we're um you know, always looking for more organizations, but we want the number of organizations to grow sort of, if you like, in step with the with the growth of the global returns project.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it will happen organically.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's not a process to be rushed and it's not a process to just you know get loads of people on board because, as you said, it's important that these align with quite core values for you guys and align with the development goals.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_04: And I think the strict vetting process of getting these people on board ensures that people know that where they're putting their money is ethical, it is sustainable, it is considering these very crucial things.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_04: And it sounds like there's a lot of expertise and consideration and almost, you know, so much science behind it.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_04: And that's something which I find very interesting as you know, when dealing with climate change and you know, and focusing on sustainability, you can't just look at the science.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_04: You've got to look at, you know, you've got the hard sciences and you've also got the soft sciences.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_04: And this brings into it the finances.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_04: And very rarely do you have this triangle, this unison of all three, because they're all so intrinsic, like all so linked and it's all so important.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, I think it's really inspiring and very exciting, just particularly to see where this goes, because all of those portfolio partners cover such key, key issues.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you've got the deforestation, the loss of carbon, biodiversity, you know, traceability of product supply chains as well.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_04: And, you know, I think for people listening, you know, that might have been a bit of a deep dive into what these charities do, but it's also so much knowledge that you can share and impart, particularly about where people's money can really benefit.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I think when you've got the choice to invest your money into something, you know, with great power comes great responsibility.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_04: And this is responsible, you know, it's you've got to have a responsibility when we are in such a crisis time, and I think lots of people want to put away investments for grandkids and you know, or trust funds.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_04: But what about the earth?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_04: That's something that you can invest in for your grandkids and beyond.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and and as you say, the scientific knowledge, I mean, we're not scientists by background, but what we've done is we've put together um a you know, world-class advisory board of you know, climate scientists, ecosystem scientists, marine science specialists, uh, land use specialists, and and so we have you know five uh world-class scientists on our advisory board, and they meet with us quarterly to you know review the portfolio and also consider any potential you know additions and and also review you know the the the impact um that the portfolio has had you know during the period.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think I think I should also just mention that you know a couple of other points.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: One is that you know, we are a UK registered charity, so um, you know, the trustees don't get paid for their work.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if somebody makes an allocation to the Global Returns Fund, 100% of the money goes into the Global Returns Fund.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there are no deductions.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Our core costs are met completely separately.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that money, 100%, will go to those underlying underlying organizations that we've been talking about.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I you know, I think that that you know that's that's an important point to make because sometimes people think, well, hang on, you know, it's somebody making money out of this.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what we're trying to do is get to a stage where being a symbiotic investor just is a normal thing that people could can decide to do.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and what I think is really exciting about it is the potential for it in the sense that, you know, let's say I've got a you know portfolio, and you know, for argument's sake, you know, because we think about it as a percentage, it's linked to wealth, and and and if it was say a quarter of a percent that people decide to to do every year, um, you know, the amount the percentage is the same to everyone.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if you've only got you know four thousand pounds, that's ten pounds a year.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: But if you've got four million pounds, that's ten thousand a year, but the percentage is the same.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and and the interesting thing about it is if you think about global private client wealth, so the amount of money that individuals control.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: So this is money that's not in sovereign wealth funds, it's not in insurance companies, it's not in defined benefit pension plans, it's not in corporate investments, it's belongs to individual people.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's about$150 trillion.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um, roughly.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's hard to it's between 140 and 160.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: We think it's around 150 trillion.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we've done quite a lot of research to sort of get to that number.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and if you think, okay, well, so if everyone did this, a quarter of a percent would be 350 billion a year.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, obviously, I hear people think not everyone is going to do this, but let's say only three in a hundred people do this, right?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: That would still be over ten and a half billion a year going into these projects, and that would move the dial.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_04: And phenomenal.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that that's what is exciting about it because you know, a lot of the time we're overwhelmed by the scale of these problems.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this is actually something which gives people agency.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: They can they can just do this and they know that they're having real impact, and it doesn't take many other people to do the same thing, and it will have significant impact over time.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and you know, that's what's exciting about it.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, so, and in terms of you know how it happens, how does it actually get implemented?
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there are various ways, it just depends on the individual and the organization.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people can go straight to our website, which is you know global returnsproject.earth, and just look at the look at the um allocate page and make an allocation and and you know, just decide what's the appropriate amount in the context of their investments.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: But what we're trying to do is we're trying to get financial advisors and financial planners and fund managers to actually embed this in their process.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_04: I think you know, when talking to you then, you said you want symbiotic wealth management to become the normal, what people do.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: And it's sticking in my head when you said ticking that box, you know.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_04: I'm thinking of things you tick a box for, gift aid, for example, you'll just tick a box for it.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_04: Or, you know, you you tick a box to be an organ donor or not.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_04: But these are, you know, can make a huge difference.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_04: And if this was something which came down to just tick a box, but you can say, you know, three out of a hundred people putting in a quarter of a percent is equal to 10 billion dollars, which you can then divvy up amongst these portfolio partners, it's a huge impact.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_04: Like that's really, really, really huge.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, I'm very it's just so exciting.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_04: I'm almost a bit speechless about how this idea has come to fruition.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_04: And if anything, I think it's really commendable that there's this forward thinking in how to do this within the wealth management space and how to, you know, it's hard to feel like you can make a difference when it comes to climate change.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_04: And everyone talks about the anxiety that you can have about it, you know, what can I actually do?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, you can recycle, you can have a reusable water bottle, you can, you know, switch the kettle off at night like my mum does.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_04: But to be able to make the difference here and it go straight to the source, straight to the companies that really or the charities that make a difference, um, it's just very exciting as to where you can be in like five to ten years.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_04: And where's where do you guys see yourself in five to ten years then?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so so I think what I we'd like to see is that if somebody says, you know, regenerative investments or symbiotic investments um or you know, symbiotic wealth management, everyone would know what that is.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that it's just that, you know, and obviously people can choose to do it or not do it, but you know, people would understand immediately, oh, that that's when you're pairing your sustainable portfolio with a regenerative portfolio and making making it a regular allocation.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, we'd like to see people uh adopting this across many different financial organizations so that you know if you're if you're on a website and and you interact with your portfolio just through electronically, there might be a tick-the-box option and you just it's just the default thing, which just happens automatically once you've made that choice.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or um if you you know have a private banker and you're discussing your your you know ESG or sustainability preferences, um you know, they they would say, Oh, well, you know, do you want to allocate to the Global Returns Fund?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you would they would just do that.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: And if it what and it may not be our product, it may be somebody else's.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, it could be a different process because other people might have different ideas about what the most effective organizations are.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's fine.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because so long as more people are doing things like this, then it will have a systemic effect.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so we think that eventually we could get to a stage where the amount you know being raised for for this kind of project is you know 10 billion a year, why not?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: That that that should be eminently doable.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, definitely so.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I think you know, particularly talking to financial advisors, it's just about initiating that conversation with clients, then isn't it?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_04: Obviously, the people listening, we might have financial advisors listening or power planners, and everybody has the agency to bring this up, you know.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_04: Everybody, as we head closer towards 2050, and you know, to people listening, if you aren't aware of the Paris um climate agreement, by 2050, a lot of us will have to be at net zero.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_04: And every business is going to have to start thinking about what they can do to make a difference.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_04: And this is something you can do, isn't it?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_04: This is something you can implement in your business to ensure you're meeting those targets.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and and so, you know, in terms of of how how this, you know, how.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: How we're going about this to help businesses.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we're talking to financial advisors, and what we want them to do is endorse the global returns project, say, you know, we think this is a good idea, and talk to their clients about it, introduce it to them, refer them to our website, or go further, incorporate it into their normal, you know, financial planning, put it on their platform.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: And those conversations are ongoing, and we've got you know three financial advisors now who have said they want to implement it, but you know, we're just going through the hoops.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a little while to for that to happen.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Then there's another way to do it, which is to incorporate it within a product.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if somebody's launching a fund, they can actually allocate a tiny percentage of the fees of that fund or the return of that fund to the global returns fund.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that immediately enhances the direct impact of that fund, ideally aligned with the overall objectives of the fund, anyway.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so there's um there's one UK fund manager, TT International, that has a um environmental solutions fund, and they um specifically in the fee structure of the fund allocate one-third of the management fee to environmental charities, and the Global Returns Fund is is one of those.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then another another really interesting one, going back to what you said about you know, businesses and just because they don't necessarily need to be financial businesses, you know, thinking about net zero and and you know how they can achieve some desirable objectives.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we had a very interesting conversation with a with a, they were actually a fund manager, but it's applicable to any business where they was they were struggling with offsetting and they were saying, well, you know, we know we should be offsetting, but you know, we've done what we can to reduce our footprint, and now we we've got some residual amount to offset and also some historical amount to offset, which they decided to do.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh, but when we look at the offset markets, we're we're concerned about permanence, you know, we're concerned about additionality, we're concerned about leakage, and we're concerned about the quality of a lot of these offsets.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: And some of them just seem to be kind of too cheap.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so, so you know, we said, well, you could look at, for example, the compliance market, which is the European um, you know, emission scheme or the UK emissions scheme, where there are regulated entities that that you know have to have to have permits to to emit carbon, and then there's a market price for that.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you and you know, that's an objective price for carbon, and it's many times higher than the voluntary offset market.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: It may be, you know, I'm not entirely sure where it is today, but you know, it may be 80 pounds a ton or 90 pounds a ton or you know, some something in that order.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we said to them, well, what you could do is you could do your cheap offsets, which you're you you're not sure about, you could look at the the uh emissions trading price, which is you know, in some cases 10 times that, and the difference in price, you could just allocate it to the global returns fund as a way of having much more direct systemic impact, looking at some of the causes.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: And anyway, they went off and thought about this and came back and said, actually, you know what, we're just going to put the whole lot into the global returns fund because we think that's much more effective.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's another that's another application, um, which has that, you know, has you know that they're not a company that has the resources to do all the analysis that we've been doing, but they're very confident in our in our process and said, okay, well, that's great.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know, go ahead, we'll just delegate it to you.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: But there are lots of different ways this can be applied.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, not even within the world of math wealth management, it could really be with any any business, any company.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's very inspiring.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_04: And also it's just more about getting the message out now, really, isn't it?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_04: And raising the awareness.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_04: And um, I guess you know, moving forward on the podcast, that's great.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it's just about putting out on socials and reaching a variety of audiences as well.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think for an individual like myself, um, growing up in what I've seen, I think you know, I'm 25 and I've studied, and a lot of my generation are so passionate about the environment.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_04: And then I sit and I talk with people from varying generations, and but the passion is there within everyone.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_04: It's not split across generations, it's still there within everyone.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_04: And that means that this can really reach so many people, it's gonna resonate with so many people.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and that's that's definitely the direction that this will be heading.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_04: I believe it.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think it can, it can't not really.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're excited.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's it's um, you know, the thing is it unfortunately it takes time to get people to to to to do things and then change their systems.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: But in the meantime, anyone who feels inspired can literally just go to our website and participate.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing to stop you doing it right now.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely, for sure.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I think, you know, uh yeah, we're coming towards the end of this episode on the Financial Planner Life podcast, and I'm leaving feeling very inspired.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_04: I'm leaving feeling like I need to go figure out how to put my money into the Global Returns project because you guys have so clearly vetted and so clearly thought this out, put so much science and experience into this that looking forward, I see success, and I think that success is not the usual success that people get when investing their money or reaping the rewards of wealth, but the the earth being healthy is so much more rewarding in that respect.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, thank you so much for your time.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's it's been a pleasure.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's been great talking to you, and thank thanks for having me on the on the podcast.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, look forward to to hearing it.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, absolutely.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I look forward to hearing all the success and seeing where you guys grow.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_04: I can't wait to watch it.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.