Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Breaking Down the Lindsay Clancy Case: The Psychology Behind the Tragedy | E6

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Breaking Down the Lindsay Clancy Case: The Psychology Behind the Tragedy | E6 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: People aren't random, They're incredibly predictable. This is a show
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: about the science of human behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: don't even realize exist, because once you see the pattern,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: you can finally change it.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: I'm doctor Sarah Hensley.
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: And I'm Rana Butcher.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: You think your life is random.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: It's not. Welcome to the Doctor Sarah Hnsley Show.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Not since the oj Simpson trial have we seen a
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  Speaker 1: country this divided over a court case. As the trial
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  Speaker 1: of Lindsay Clancy unfolds, we are seeing a big division
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  Speaker 1: among the spectators. Half of those that are watching the
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: trial believe it's an open and shutcase that Lindsay Clancy
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: killed her three children, and the only argument under deliberation
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: is whether she did it during an acute psychotic episode,
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  Speaker 1: which leaves her not criminally responsible for the crimes. The
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: other half watching the trial see something very different, and
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  Speaker 1: those voices are getting louder and louder as the trial unfolds.
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  Speaker 1: So the question in this episode becomes, are we all
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: suffering from a classic massive case of confirmation bias? Or
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: is something different going on? And we've just become really
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: good at pattern recognition.
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  Speaker 3: So let's start with confirmation bias, because I want to
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  Speaker 3: break that down. What do you mean?
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  Speaker 1: The confirmation bias is this idea that we have a belief,
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  Speaker 1: and so we search for evidence to fit that belief,
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  Speaker 1: and we ignore or discount or minimize evidence that disconfirms
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  Speaker 1: that belief. So basically, we see what we want to see.
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  Speaker 3: Right, and how does this relate to this trial?
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  Speaker 1: The question essentially right now under deliberation legally, as most
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: people understand it, is Lindsay admitted to killing her three children, which,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: let me just say, is an absolutely horrific, unspeakable crime
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  Speaker 1: and tragedy, and my prayers are all that everyone involved
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  Speaker 1: seeks Jesus, I mean above everything else. And so the
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  Speaker 1: question legally is was she having an acute psychotic episode
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  Speaker 1: where she had a break with reality and did not
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  Speaker 1: know what she was doing. Therefore, is not criminally responsible
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: or had no control over what she was doing, because
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  Speaker 1: when you have a psychotic break, you are not in reality.
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  Speaker 1: You cannot distinguish reality from fantasy.
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  Speaker 3: Right, And the burden is on the prosecution.
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  Speaker 2: Burden is on the prosecution.
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  Speaker 1: But this is where things get really interesting and there's been.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, I have dug so far down this rabbit hole.
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  Speaker 3: You know me.
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  Speaker 1: If I'm going to dig on something, I'm going to
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  Speaker 1: know everything there is to it. Because there's a law
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: of psychology here that nobody is talking about.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: Oh let's talk about it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think we need to get into some
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  Speaker 1: of the details first, and then we will get into
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  Speaker 1: why psychology really matters here and what's wrong with not
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: talking about that psychology.
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  Speaker 3: So looks like you've done your research.
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  Speaker 2: You got a whole packet here. The psychology I got
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: under wraps.
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  Speaker 1: But all this stuff about the trial, I don't want
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  Speaker 1: to misspeak. And let me just be clear. I'm not
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: accusing anybody of committing these crimes. I'm not accusing a
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  Speaker 1: single person of committing these crimes.
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  Speaker 2: All I'm willing to say right now is that.
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  Speaker 1: What is being talked about, what is being stipulated on
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  Speaker 1: each side. I'm not talking about any conspiracies. We're just
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: going to break down what everybody is saying. That's what
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  Speaker 1: we're going to do here, and we're going to let
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  Speaker 1: people make their own decisions with your own free will.
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  Speaker 3: It's free country.
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  Speaker 1: You can think whatever you want to think. But no
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: way am I committing any kind of defamation. And I
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  Speaker 1: have my personal opinions, but I think I might keep
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  Speaker 1: those to myself, So.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, okay, So.
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  Speaker 1: So essentially what happened is On January twenty fourth, twenty
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  Speaker 1: twenty three, Lindsay Clancy, a labor and delivery nurse living
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  Speaker 1: in Duxbury, Massachusetts, was home with her three children, Cora
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  Speaker 1: five years old, Dawson three years old, and Callen eight
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  Speaker 1: months old, while her husband, Patrick Clancy, left the house
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  Speaker 1: to pick up medication and take out food. During the
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  Speaker 1: brief period Patrick was gone, the children were strangled with
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  Speaker 1: exercise resistance bans in the basement of the family home.
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  Speaker 1: Cora and Dawson were pronounced dead that night, while Callen
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  Speaker 1: survived initially but died three days later. Lindsay was subsequently
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  Speaker 1: found seriously injured outside the home after cutting herself and
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  Speaker 1: jumping from a second story window in an apparent suicide attempt,
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  Speaker 1: which left her paralyzed. She was charged with three counts
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  Speaker 1: of murder and related strangulation charges, and has pleaded not guilty.
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  Speaker 1: At her twenty twenty sixth trial, The parties agree that
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  Speaker 1: Lindsay killed the children, but sharply dispute her criminal responsibility.
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  Speaker 1: Prosecutors contend she deliberately created an opportunity to be alone
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  Speaker 1: with the children and methodically killed them, while her defense
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  Speaker 1: maintains that months of deteriorating postpartum mental health cumulated in
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  Speaker 1: psychosis and that she was unable to appreciate the wrongfulness.
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  Speaker 2: Of her actions.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so let's start out by talking about her stipulating.
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  Speaker 2: To the crimes.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: So, her defense.
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  Speaker 1: Attorney, Kevin Reddington, who has become very famous over social
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  Speaker 1: media in the days of the trial, put a motion
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: in front of the court to ask the court to
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  Speaker 1: do something called bifurcation of the trial. And apparently bifurcation
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  Speaker 1: is where you want to split the case up into
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  Speaker 1: two parts. One first deciding whether she did or did
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  Speaker 1: not kill the children, and two, if it is found
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  Speaker 1: that she did not kill the children or I'm sorry.
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  Speaker 1: If she found that she was found guilty that she
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  Speaker 1: did kill the children, was she then criminally responsible for
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  Speaker 1: the crimes? Aka? Was she not guilty by reason of insanity?
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  Speaker 2: Okay?
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  Speaker 1: That motion was dismissed. It was not taken up by
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: the court. The judge said, you cannot separate those things
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  Speaker 1: we're trying it all together. In that motion, Reddington said,
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  Speaker 1: if we do get this motion granted for a bifurication,
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  Speaker 1: Lindsay is willing.
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  Speaker 2: To stipulate that she killed the children. Why would you
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  Speaker 2: do that?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, what he was trying to accomm was not allowing
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  Speaker 1: the gruesome evidence of the children to enter the court
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  Speaker 1: and for the jury to see it. So if he
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  Speaker 1: could come and say, Nope, you know what she said,
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  Speaker 1: she did it, We just need to actually look at
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  Speaker 1: the evidence of her mental state, it would not have
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  Speaker 1: had to include all of the very tragic, very gruesome,
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  Speaker 1: very gory details of the crimes.
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  Speaker 2: So it makes sense.
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  Speaker 3: It does.
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  Speaker 1: Because if you think about it, a lot of people
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  Speaker 1: in this country do plead guilty to crimes that they
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  Speaker 1: do not commit because they recognize that the prosecution has
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  Speaker 1: enough evidence to potentially get a guilty verdict. There's also
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: something this country called an Alfred plea, which is you
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  Speaker 1: are not pleading guilty, but you're admitting that they have
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  Speaker 1: enough evidence against.
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  Speaker 3: You you for you to be potentially found guilty.
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  Speaker 1: Potentially found guilty, So keep that in mind. What the
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: jury is actually deciding the Commonwealth's theory. So the prosecution
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  Speaker 1: theory is that killing the kids was deliberate. It was premeditated,
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  Speaker 1: she knew exactly what she was doing. She sent her
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  Speaker 1: husband on these errands so that she could be alone
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  Speaker 1: with them and commit them. And apparently the motive for
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  Speaker 1: murder was she just didn't want to be a mom
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  Speaker 1: anymore and she wanted to escape motherhood, and that she
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  Speaker 1: had faked this suicide attempt. So the suicide attempt that
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  Speaker 1: left her paralyzed was all fake. And so it is
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  Speaker 1: on the burden of the prosecution to prove that this
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  Speaker 1: was murder one premeditated, pre planned, knew what she was
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  Speaker 1: doing the whole time.
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  Speaker 3: Right, Okay, guaranteed life sentence.
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  Speaker 1: Guaranteed life sentence, no possibility a parol. And the defense
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  Speaker 1: says well, in many months leading up to this murder,
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  Speaker 1: Lindsay had vigorously attempted to get help for what appeared
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: to be very severe postpartum mental health issues.
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  Speaker 3: And there's tons of evidence to support that.
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  Speaker 2: Very very very large amounts of evidence.
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  Speaker 1: Many medical providers, up to thirteen psychiatric medications being prescribed,
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  Speaker 1: many of those at the same time, many different providers
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  Speaker 1: entering the picture.
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  Speaker 3: With no cross communications, with no.
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  Speaker 1: Cross communication among the providers. The stance of the defense
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  Speaker 1: is that these that she was over medicated and that
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  Speaker 1: tapering of one of the antipsychotics was largely responsible then
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  Speaker 1: for an acute psychotic episode. And the prosecution has introduced
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  Speaker 1: a lot of evidence to suggest that there was no psychosis,
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  Speaker 1: that nobody that evaluated her or spoke to her believed
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  Speaker 1: at any point that she was suffering from psychosis. Now
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  Speaker 1: here's where things, I think get a little bit interesting.
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  Speaker 1: What I believe the prosecution has shown so far is
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  Speaker 1: that no providers observed positive symptoms of psychosis. So psychosis
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  Speaker 1: has both positive symptoms and negative symptoms. Negative symptoms can
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  Speaker 1: be things like very flat affect, dissociation, you know, things
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  Speaker 1: that are the absence of behavior. Those things actually were observed.
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  Speaker 1: So the defenses are we have negative symptoms, right, and
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  Speaker 1: that positive symptoms can come on extremely acutely and abruptly
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  Speaker 1: and fluctuate.
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  Speaker 2: From minute to minute. And that is true about psychosis,
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  Speaker 2: specifically postpartum psychosis, where it is more episodic and situationally
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  Speaker 2: related versus a disorder like schizophrenia. Okay, so from what
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  Speaker 2: we do know.
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  Speaker 1: About postpartum psychosis, it can rapidly fluctuate, so you can
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  Speaker 1: kind of be fine one minute and then be experiencing
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  Speaker 1: delusions or hallucinations, which are positive symptoms of psychosis the
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  Speaker 1: next minute. So apparently leading up to the deaths, her
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  Speaker 1: husband Patrick reported that she was having one of the
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  Speaker 1: best days that she had had yet in the previous
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  Speaker 1: days there had been reports from Lindsay that she was
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  Speaker 1: really struggling. It has been reported and I believe confirmed
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  Speaker 1: through Patrick's testimony, that she had admitted to him that
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  Speaker 1: she had very intrusive thoughts of harming herself and harming
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  Speaker 1: the children, right, but providers continually dismissed her, and I
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  Speaker 1: believe she was denied entry into one specific postpartu mental
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  Speaker 1: health inpatient program for potentially being over medicated and for
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  Speaker 1: not having an actual plan to commit suicide, although describing
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  Speaker 1: having intrusive thoughts about harming herself.
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  Speaker 3: How can a place deny you because you're over medicated
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  Speaker 3: or why?
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  Speaker 2: Probably I would have to guess.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know for sure, but I would guess liability
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  Speaker 1: reasons where they are not the ones actually managing her
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  Speaker 1: medication plan, and if a lot of her symptoms are
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  Speaker 1: coming from polypharmacy, which is you know, the mixing of
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  Speaker 1: lots of different medications, then they would not have the
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  Speaker 1: means to maybe potentially address that if they are not
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  Speaker 1: her prescribing providers. Right, makes sense, That's my guess. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I don't really know. I'm not sure anybody knows.
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  Speaker 2: What we do know is.
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  Speaker 1: That she sought a lot of mental health treatment, including
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  Speaker 1: voluntarily committing herself to McLean Hospital over a period of
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: a weekend and a holiday. It has since come forth
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  Speaker 1: that she did not have a lot of supervision or
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: treatment while at McLean Hospital. So the prosecution is saying, well,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: she was seen every fifteen minutes. It's now come out
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: that those were just basically checking to see if she
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: had killed herself. Yet from people who have worked at
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: McLean that those fifteen minute checks are just to make
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: sure you're alive and breathing, that those were not considered therapy.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Let's break down. Let's break down a little bit about
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  Speaker 1: her mental health and what we know. She was diagnosed
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: with generalized anxiety disorder and postpartum anxiety and I believe
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  Speaker 1: postpartum depression. The Commonwealth has called witnesses Doctor Jennifer Tuff's,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: who was the psychiatric physician and She testified that Lindsay
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: was depressed and struggling, but did not display psychotic symptoms,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: denied suicidal or homicidal intent at the final appointment the
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: day before killings. McLean clinician testimony similarly described major depression
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: and the absence of observed psychosis, and the state uses
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: this repetition to argue that the later claim of command
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: hallucinations is inconsistent with what Lindsay reported contemporaneously. They also
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: point to functional behavior that she attended appointments, she had
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: coherent communication, she was able to care for her children,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: was able to plan, conducted internet searches, ordered from a restaurant,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: and was able to discuss her medications.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: The broader inference is that.
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  Speaker 1: Her mental illness was real, but mental illness is not
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  Speaker 1: synonymous with legal insanity, so it is not under contention
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  Speaker 1: that she was mentally ill. And I think I would
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: like to just take a little sidecar to my own
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: postpartum experience with Gabby who was on our podcast, And
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: I want to just put my bias straight out there.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: We are none of us are without bias, and I
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: want to put mine straight out there. I had a very,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: very difficult postpartum experience with Gabby. She was born early.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: I had a emergency sea section. I don't remember the
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: sea section. I woke up without anybody in the hospital
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: or with my baby, had no idea if she was
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: alive or dead. I had postpartum complications, including ripping open
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: my sea section. I had to have my appendix out
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: almost immediately after, and then had some kidney stones and
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: was given a very very dangerous combination of drugs where
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: there's a black box warning on not giving that combination
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: of drugs, including cipro n SAIDs, which caused a very
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: severe psychiatric reaction. Cipro is known to basically obliterate the
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: breaks of your nervous system, especially when combined with end SAIDs,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: and I suffered for a whole year of severe anxiety
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: and over a year of very very very very severe insomnia.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: I had very little help from my husband at the time,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: and I suffered immensely. I don't know how much of
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: it was postpartum, how much of it was the cipro.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: It was hard to tell. I still have things like
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: muscle twitches.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: And neuropathy from the cipro, so I know that that
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: did affect me and I was diagnosed with fluoroquinolone toxicity
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: after that, so we know I had a toxic reaction,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: and I sought help during that period from a number
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: of different doctors in the obgy in community as well
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: as a number of different mental health provide I was given,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: like lindsay, multiple psychiatric medications that, when combined together, made
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: my mental state considerably worse, including one pill one night
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: of Sarah quell to which caused my mind inside of
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: my head so it wasn't hallucinations, but inside of my
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: head to be so loud that it scared me, like
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: music playing in my head so loud that I couldn't
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: hear what other people were saying. So I never touched
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: that medication again. I got off all medications they gave
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: me and said no, and I did recover so without
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: any medications, because I felt like the medications that I
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: was given.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Deteriorated me faster.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: They were making me worse.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like bad. And what we know about psychiatric medications
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: is that starting them abruptly and stopping them abruptly is
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: really really bad news. That they can cause very significant
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: side effects when you first start taking them if you
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: do not taper up and the taper schedules that doctors
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: usually give are far too quick. And so you know,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: when I went on medication for migraine, after vestibular migraine,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: after what was I guess my second nervous breakdown in
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: my life, I tapered up very very slow and taper
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: down very very soon. Yeah, Sarah quill is it's an antipsychotic.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a hard.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: Isn't that what they give people with schizophrenia? Is?
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is an antipsychotic.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: She was also given Ramaran, multiple black box warnings on Ramaran.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: I have a quick question. So, if they're not claiming
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: psychosis but they're giving her an antipsychotic, isn't that quite
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: the paradox.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: It is, Although antipsychotics can also be prescribed for sleep.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: Okay, so she.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Was dealing with some severe insomnia. Antipsychotics like sarahquall are
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: extreme sedating, and that brings up some of the toxicology results,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: which I think are very interesting. She had above therapeutic
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: levels of sarahquil in her system. Sarahquila again is extremely sedating.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: It didn't knock me out after fluoroquiline toxicity, but it's
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: extremely sedating. She was given lamical trasidone, which is a
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: very very sedating, old school tricyclic antidepressant, and quite a
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: few benzodiazepine drugs which benzos are like outa van clonovin
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: xanax I think was one many people will recognize, lots
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: of lots of sedating.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Medications.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: The amount of sarahqual in her blood was reportedly double
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: what one might expect, which many people are saying would
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: make an elephant sleep.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: That's an anecdotal, little tidbit. And the prosecution's point is
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: not that these medications were irrelevant to her psychiatric state. Rather,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: they argue that the blood evidence doesn't demonstrate intoxication so
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: extreme that she was incapable of.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Being insane, right, okay, And then.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: They argue she was still able to take care of
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: her children, she was performing these other tests correct.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: So from the prosecution standpoint, they aren't convinced that she
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: heard this male command voice telling her to kill her
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: children and to take her own life. The prosecution stresses
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: that she has not reported such voices to family or
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: treated that as any kind of reason that she could
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: have been a danger to the kids before this happened.
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  Speaker 1: So she didn't say she was hearing voices, and she
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: didn't tell anybody that she thought she shouldn't be around
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: the kids.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: But can the onset of that, like you mentioned before,
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  Speaker 3: come on very quickly.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: There is a little bit of a hiccup in the
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: prosecution's case where during testimony state police Sergeant Dan Lower,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: the jury heard from him about an investigative theory that
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: a defense forensic psychologist may have influenced her later to
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: describe hearing voices. However, Lawler acknowledged there was no investigative
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: basis for confirming that coaching theory. So the prosecution may
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: attack the timing and reliability of the hallucination, but the
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: evidence reported does not establish that she was coached in
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: any way. So the prosecution is saying, well, a psychologist
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: came in there and said, tell people, you heard voices,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: but she was being guarded by police and nobody heard
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: that happen, so that is not verified. Okay, So, as
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: we supposedly see this trial, she sends her husband on
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: two errands. She apparently takes her daughter to the pediatrician.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: They tell her she's constipated, She googles pedia acts. She
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: texts Patrick, Hey, I need you to pick up this
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: pedia axe from CBS, which is apparently a three minute
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: drive from their house. And then how about takeout food.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Let's get this takeout called three V from this restaurant.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: So he says sure. He goes to the CBS. Apparently
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Lindsay had called and confirmed that CBS had this. They
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: said they did. He gets there, finds that they do
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: not have it. He calls Lindsay, she does not answer.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: She calls him right back. Patrick says she sounds fine
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: but busy. I assume she was giving the kids a bath.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Asked her if the generic brand was okay. She said yes,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: and apparently he buys it, and then he goes to
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: this restaurant called three V.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: She had called in the food.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: He sees the order, picks it up, and comes home.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: He arrives home and he doesn't hear anybody in the house.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: He looks for Lindsay, calls her name, can't find her,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: so he picks up the phone and tries to Lindsay.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: She does not answer. He goes upstairs, finds the bedroom
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: door locked. He unlocks the door with a key, that
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: they have taped on a baseboard of some sort and
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: finds blood all over the floor and the window open.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: He looks out the window sees his wife, Lindsay, laying
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: in the snow outside. This is a second story bedroom
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: by the way, runs downstairs to try to talk to her.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Tries to talk to her. Apparently she tells Patrick I
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: tried to kill myself and he says, Lindsey, where are
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: the kids? She says in the basement. He, after about
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: nine minutes, calls nine one one. Okay, let me double
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: check that in the timeline, believe it's nine minutes, calls
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: nine one one and still has not gone to the
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: basement to look for his kids. At this point, he's
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: on the phone with nine to one one and he
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: tells them that Lindsay has said the kids are in
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: the basement. Apparently, Ems was very quick to respond to
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: the house and when they arrive, Lindsay is not able
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: to speak, and as they arrive, Patrick starts to head
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: to the basement, where he finds his three children with
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: exercise bands around their necks and intervenes gets the bands
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: off of their neck and Ems quickly follow him into
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: the basement and find the children. So we have something
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: very very interesting, which is that, as of yet, nobody
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: has testified to hearing Lindsay admit.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: To killing the kids.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: But Patrick, there is no police forensic interview, there is
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: no confession, detailed confession. There is only so far more
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: witnesses can be called. Right, there is nobody that is
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: able to testify that they heard Lindsay say I killed
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: the kids except her husband.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: It's only one so far.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Now people are coming back and saying, well, her attorney
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: said it an opening statement, she knows she killed her children.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: The jury is also instructed that opening statements are not evidence,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: not to be considered evidence.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: So his exact words were, Lindsay knows she killed her children. Okay,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: So many people feel like that's pretty open and shut.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: She says she knows she did it. She's not contesting it.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: This is just about whether she was acutely psychotic and
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: out of touch with reality and unable to understand the
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: consequences of her actions.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: And there was never an interview conducted with Lindsay post
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: finding the children.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Correct, she was unresponsive at the scene. Okay, let's talk
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: about Lindsay's condition at the scene. When ems arrives, she
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: is unable to speak. She has lacerations on her wrists
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: and her neck that appear moderately superficial, so they're not
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: causing her to bleed out quickly. She apparently is unable
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: to speak, and I believe at at some point is
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: not really conscious and ends up having to be intubated
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: in the hospital, which would make a forensic interview or
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: an investigative interview virtually impossible. At the crime scene when
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: she woke up, she's being guarded by police in the hospital.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: When she wakes up, they do not let anybody in
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: the room for quite a while. Kevin Reddington, her criminal
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: defense attorney, says he was not allowed in the room.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Apparently one of the things that she asks via whiteboard
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: when she wakes up is do I need an attorney? Okay,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: which is not her saying I want an attorney. Those
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: are two different things. She said I want an attorney,
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: then she wouldn't have been able to be questioned without
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: her attorney present, But she says do I need an attorney?
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: She also writes the word horrified.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Apparently, a psychologist for the defense was the first person
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: to talk to Lindsay after this happens, and let me
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: see if I can see exactly when that was.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we got to get our facts, right, Yeah, we gotta.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Get our facts right. Let me look, that's important. Yeah.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to say anything
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: that's not okay. Hospital call confession, the verified record. Patrick,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: her husband, testifies that Lindsay called him from the hospital
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: quote like a week or so after.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: And ask Lindsay.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: About quote what happened with the children, and and when
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: he was asked, well, what did she say, he says
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: she didn't talk about our kids. She talked about what
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: she went through. He then described her as saying she
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: heard a man's voice. Asked whether she mentioned the children
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: at all, Patrick said, I don't think so, I mean
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: not directly. So this is the first contact Patrick has
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: had with Lindsay since the killings, and he cannot remember
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: if she discussed the children. Okay, so that's what we know.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Apparently a psychiatrist for the defense was in the room
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: when she made this call, and it has been verified
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: that her hands were cuffed to the bed when this
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: call was made.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, so.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Let's go back to the nine to one one call. Okay,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: this is another part of Lindsay's confession. On the nine
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: one one call, Lindsay's voice is not able to be heard,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: just moaning sounds. Groaning sounds is all that is able
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: to be heard from Lindsay on the nine one one call.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: So she attempted to make a nine one one call. No,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: he makes a nine one he makes it, okay, okay,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: He finds her, he talks to her for a few minutes.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: She's in the background while he's on the nine.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: Then he picks up and calls nine one one okay,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: and describes his wife's condition and that he says that
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: they are in the basement. Then apparently Ems showed up
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: really quickly, which is, you know, a very good thing
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: most of the time.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: That is not the case. If we look at the timeline,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: let's see he arrives at six nine pm.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: Patrick House back cam mm hmm.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: And then.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: I don't have I don't have a number on what
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: time he called nine one one, So I don't want
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: to make a mistake and say what time it actually
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: was that he called nine one one, But it was
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: not immediately. It wasn't upon finding Lindsay immediately, okay. On
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: the nine one one call, we hear Patrick say, and
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: if you have kids in the car, hopefully you're not
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: listening to this with kids in the car. This is
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: we should have probably said that upfront, cover their ears,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: turn the volume down. She killed the fucking kids. The
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: nine one one recording is important. It's a corroboration of
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: his emotional discovery, and Lindsay can be heard again moaning
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: and struggling to speak in the background while Patrick tells
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: her to wake up. He does not go look for
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: his children until first responders arrive. But again, they arrived
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: fairly quickly.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: That's odd to me, Like why why? I wonder why?
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, obviously we don't know, but.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Well, there could be a couple explanations. Let's break that down.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: First explanation, let's go with what we're kind.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Of being told.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: He'syed, he's distraught.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: He sees his wife in this horrible state. She's tried
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: to commit suicide. All he knows is kids are in
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: the basement. Maybe he assumes they're safe, they're fine. He's
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: going to try to maybe see if you know, he
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: can get Lindsay medical attention, and once he knows the
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: ems are there with her, then he feels comfortable enough
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: to go to the basement. However, many mothers in particular
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: are pushing back on that because Callen was only eight
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: months old, Cora is five, Dawson is three. Yeah, that's young,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: very very young, right, potential for harm or injury. And
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: if she had said to Patrick previously, which he stipulates
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: that she had said previously, she had had thoughts of
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: harming the children, so he knows this at this time,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: yet he waits until ems arrived. But again, that can
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: be explained by You're in an acute trauma shock situation.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: I've been in acute trauma shock situations before. You're not
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: thinking very clearly in those situations that.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Can be chalked up to trauma and shock. I think
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: that is reasonable.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Mothers are saying hell no, But mothers and fathers are different,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: and I don't think that that says anything conclusive. Let's
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: talk about a little bit more about Lindsay's state. The
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: cuts on her wrists and now are super superficial.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: So she cuts her wrists across not not vertically. Not vertically.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: We know you have to do vertically.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: Right, and she's a nurse, so she knows this right.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: She knows where things are right, So she cuts her
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: wrists superficially, in her neck superficially and then throws herself,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: moves the bed, and then throws herself out the window.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: And this is this two story about home, two story home.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: The fall was approximately twenty feet and paralyzed her from
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: the sternum down.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: A lot of people are pushing back and questioning why
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: were the cut superficial? The prosecution is saying, see, it
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: was all faked. She you know, she didn't really want
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: to commit suicide. She planned to live through this whole
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: thing and just claim insanity, which this is where I'm struggling.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: If she wanted to escape motherhood, the only escape she's
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: going to run into with this plan is life in
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: prison or life in a mental institution.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes sense sense.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: There's no other route.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: So her escape was I'd rather be in prison for
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: the rest of my life or I'd rather be in
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: a mental institution for the rest of my life. If
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: she was saying, there are no alternative explanations, so that
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: is the escape she was seeking. Okay, the mental health
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: witnesses the prosecution is bringing forth are somewhat sus no
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: matter I think what you think happened. Everybody can agree.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Doctor Jennifer Tuff's this was like her first patient ever practically,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Oh no, So she's fresh up out of residency. She
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: has never admittedly never cared for a postpartum mentally ill
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: woman or maybe a postpartum psychosis case have had. She's
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: had very few cases in general. She's fresh, brand new doctor,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: or I should say brand new doctor in this sense.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: The social worker slash therapist that she had seen a
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: few times did not review her records before she took
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: the stand and was very unhelpful in remembering exactly what
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: lindsay state was, but seems to remember that Lindsay seemed
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: okay and not psychotic. There was the impatient hospitalization that
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: was voluntary, so she went in and hospitalized herself and
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: did not see a doctor until that Tuesday. So I
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: believe she went in and was there for several days,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: but did not actually see her doctor, I'm sorry, not
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: a doctor, her doctor until Tuesday. During weekends and holidays,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: there is a sort of on call physician, and instead
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: of having five to six patients per doctor, which is
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: what happens during the weekdays in regular operating hours, this
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: one doctor sees twenty five to thirty patients, so all
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: the patients on the floor.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: So the doctor that would have been there the majority
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: of time that Lindsay was there was managing everybody on
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: the floor and not able to spend quite a bit
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: of time with Lindsay. When the doctor does see Lindsay,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: she wants to leave, she wants to go to her
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: daughter's birthday party, and so she is checked out. All right,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: So where does this leave us?
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: What do you want to know? What I mean?
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: I just feel like we've covered so much of the
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: details of the actual trial. I want to know the
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: psychology and maybe the breakdown. Maybe a good place to start,
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: I think, is really what can potentially happen with a
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: mother who's experiencing postpartum and postpartum psychosis.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Postpartum psychosis is just a very well documented illness, yet
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: so misunderstood. It is rare, but it can produce a
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: very fluctuating mental state where it can be described a
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: mother can be very lucid, very caring, very normal, and
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: then suddenly experience psychotic symptoms. So there are what we
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: call these windows of normalcy with acute psychotic episodes. Again,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: psychosis is break from reality. You do not know what
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: is real and what is not real.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: So does she even have does she even claim to
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: have memory, any memory of what's happened?
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: This is where it gets really interesting. Lindsay has never
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: so far from what we know, the trial is not over,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: been interviewed by the police. What all the accounts of
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: her admissions have come from Patrick And the psychologist that
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: was supposedly in with her from the defense is on
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: the witness list to testify for the defense they have.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: This psychologist has not been called by the prosecution yet.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: They're close to arresting their case though, and he has
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: not been called.
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: So and they can't call Lindsay because it's an it's
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: it's a claim to insanity, so she can't testify, correct.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I do not know that. Okay, I
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: do not.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: Know that Most defendants don't testify.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: Most cases, and that should not be considered admission of
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: admission of guilts.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: No.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: So, yes, that psychologist that was in the room when
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Lindsay supposedly called her husband and said I heard a
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: man's voice commanding me to kill the children.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Has not been called by the prosecution.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: Okay, So that account. That account, as of today, has
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: only come from Patrick.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Has only come from Patrick himself. As of today, no police,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: no forensic interviewer, no psychologist has said Lindsay admitted she
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: went downstairs, she did this, she did that, she did this.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: There has been no detailed account from Lindsay admitting to
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: killing the kids. But then people will go wise her
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: attorney saying it right, Well, I think it's reasonable to
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: conclud flude that her attorney might be saying this because
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: he realizes that the defense may have enough to convince
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: a jury that she is guilty of committing these crimes,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: and that she would then face life in prison, and
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: that his best defense for his client is to admit
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: to being psychotic and clinically insane, which would render her
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: to a state psychiatric facility for potentially the rest of
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: her life.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: She would be assessed periodically.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: And potentially let go if they feel like she is
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: no longer a danger to herself for others. But what
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: we know from for example, the Andrea Yates trial, is
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: she is still committed. So it's actually very hard, I believe,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: to be released from a state psychiatric facility once you're
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: committed for something like.
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: That, Andrew. I mean that was back in the late nineties,
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: early two thousand.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was in the early two thousands, or it
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: might have been nineteen ninety nine. And so I don't
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: think there's been anything as bad as this since then
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: that I can remember, or they.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: Just didn't get the media coverage correct, So keep that
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: in mind. Yeah, there's lots of holes here.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, we haven't even gotten to the house.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: Got there's already a ton I want to know in
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: terms of.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: Talk about the psychology of memory.
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do want to talk about that. And Patrick's alibi.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, I know they have him on.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: Ooh, yes, they have him on video. Okay, let me
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: get to the timeline.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: So Patrick states he leaves the house at five point
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: fifteen pm CBS is approximately three minutes from the house.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: There is an email sent by Patrick for work, timestamped
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: at five twenty four pm. The defense has raised the
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: question as to whether that email came from his surface
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: pro or his iPhone. So far, I don't think we
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: know that for sure. He is seen arriving at the
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: SEATVS at five thirty two pm. So he states he
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: leaves at five fifteen. It's three minutes away. He's seen
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: entering the CBS at five thirty two.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: Okay, so there's quite a gap there.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Seventeen minutes, he gets the medication, you know, calls Lindsay,
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: she doesn't answer. She calls back, says generic's fine, He
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: checks out, leaves.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: Then he is seen picking up.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: The takeout food at five point fifty four PM, dressed
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: in a different shirt and different shoes that are on
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: the surveillance video at CBS's We've had no explanation for
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: that whatsoever. Nobody's even brought it up. It's not even
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: been brought up, not yet, not yet, not yet. We
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: don't know, could be could be brought up. I don't know,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: But that's not.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: The defense's position. So it makes it very interesting. If
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: the defense's position is yes, she did it, but ins
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: insanity correct, then would it even be real.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: It would not be relevant.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: So it's actually not surprising that it's not brought up
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: because it would have nothing to do with her mental state.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Why he changed his shirt and his shoes. Okay, so
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: that makes sense that they didn't bring it up.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: Right, It doesn't make sense why it happened.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Nobody's all we can see that. We can see the
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: brown boots and then the tennis shoes. Right, we can
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: see the half zip and then the full zip. Maybe
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: there was a jacket in the car. Maybe his feet
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: were hurting and he changed his shoes. Maybe he was
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: planning on going running and his shoes were in the car.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know, We don't.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Know, nobody knows, nobody has any idea. But let's look
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: at the psychology of memory. Psychologists know that memory is
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: more like Plato than a camcorder memories. It are insanely
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: subjected to being distorted from information after the fact, very
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: subjective to being distorted. Memory is sometimes confabulated, which means
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: we put in random details that were never there to
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: begin with to try to fill in some holes. Our
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: brain just fills in the holes with things that didn't happen.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: Professor and distinguished researcher in memory, Elizabeth Loftis has extensively
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: researched this topic, specifically in the field of forensics, and
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: has found that memory is anything but reliable, is very
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: subject to distortion, is very malleable, and researchers in the
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: area of psychosis and memory in particular will tell you
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: and I have a lot of the science here printed out.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: We love the science. We love the science.
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: Sciences that they may that they are.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: In fact the most vulnerable population for false memory, people
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: that are in active psychosis. Okay, decades of research show
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: a consistent pattern of memory unreliability that is directly relevant
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: to any interview that could be used as evidence. We
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: see drastically elevated false recognitions.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: And here's what's really psychotic.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Patients are massively overconfident in their false memories. So not
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: only do they have false memories, they believe them with certainty.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: Have you ever met somebody in active psychosis?
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: I have, Yeah, because I worked with the chronic manly
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: ill adult population for four years in my early case
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: management days.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: And what do you notice about those people when they're
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: describing their delusions and hallucinations?
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: Oh, they believe them. They, I mean, they a million them.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Absolutely nothing you can do to talk them out of it.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: I worked with a chronically mentally ill population between undergrad
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: and graduate school and was privy to a few individuals
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: in active psychosis. And they will tell you very very elaborate,
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: impossible stories, and if you do not believe them, they
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: can get very very angry at you.
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: Yes, I have a very personal experience where this happened
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: to me with a client.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: Uh huh.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: And this is present and prevalent across the psychosis trajectory.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: So meta memory miscalibration is observed in chronic schizophrenia as
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: well as first episode psychosis and clinically high risk individuals,
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: suggesting it's intrinsic to the illness itself rather than a
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: byproduct of chronicity or medication. So false memories are part
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: of psychosis itself rather than a byproduct.
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: So my question is, if she's being told certain memories
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: that potentially aren't true, there's possibility that she believes them.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: If we look at the evidence of what we call
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: vulnerable populations. First of all, the amount of false confessions
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: and vulnerable populations are drastically higher than those in what
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: we call quote normal populations, So that would be the
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: mentally ill abused women, etc.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, In terms.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Of those that are specifically psychotic, we have enough data.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: To say that they are probably that they are.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: The most vulnerable of the vulnerable populations, and that the
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: false memories may be part of psychosis itself, that it
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: may be an act of symptom of psychosis versus just
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: being more vulnerable to it. Many researchers believe that that
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: is the case. There is imagination inflation, which is repeatedly
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: imagining an event that increases the patient's belief in its likelihood,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: and this includes autobiographical memory. Autobiographical memory or memories that
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: happened to you that you believe you participated in. Okay,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: delusion linked distortion, false memory and illusionary pattern perception biases
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: are stronger in patients with active delusions, and the mechanism
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: of action is dopamine driven hippocamical changes that encode congruent
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: or delusion congruent autobiographical memories, and those memories may persist
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: after acute symptoms remit. So that was Krahan and Irich
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty three and hugh Chen and Tang, twenty twenty three.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: First study is investigating false memory and illusionary illusory sorry
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: pattern perception bias in psychotic schizophrenia and spurious autobiographical memory
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: of psychosis. A mechanistic hypothesis in the Journal of Brain Sciences.
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: Which tells us that memories that even that are dangerous
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: or thoughts that are even dangerous can be sought out
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: or acted upon based on the psychosis or the memories
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: that they have. And I think back to one specific
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: client that I had who had daily psychosis and his hallucinations.
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: He thought he fought in the Vietnam War. He actually
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: died in Vietnam. They placed a microchip in his stomach,
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: shipped his body back to the States, brought him back
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: to life, and now aliens communicated with him through this
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: chip and his stomach, so he spent he almost not
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: intentionally tried to commit suicide by trying to cut this
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: chip out of his belly because he believed that it
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: was there. Yes, that's just one example.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: I think I remember you telling me that story like
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: a while long and a long long time.
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: One of the ladies that I was working with when
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: I worked in domestic violence in between undergrad and graduate
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: school was an active psychosis and she had not yet
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: yet gotten a diagnosis, so we were awaiting trying to
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: get her an assessment. She was also homeless at that time,
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: and she stated to me that and this was an
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: older woman, so she was probably in her late fifties
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: at this time, early sixties, that her husband had left
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: her because her husband's mother had snuck into her room,
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: taken out her child bearing organs, had them surgically implanted
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: into herself so she could continue to have children in
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: old age, and that her husband had left her because
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: she no longer had her reproductive organs because his mother
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: stole them. Oh yeah, it's so sad.
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: It is very sad. I know, we have tons of
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: really sad. It is very crippling sad. I have another
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: I had another client who she was my age but
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: suffered from severe schizophrenia, and you know, I had to
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: do home visits and she would often slam the door
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: in my face. She was very noncompliant and taking medication
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: and seeing doc and she reported that I was trying
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: to kill her. So every time that I would come
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: to her house, the reason why she would try, she
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: wouldn't let me in or I think I got through
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: to her maybe twice, but that was usually when she
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: was being compliant with with her medication. But she would
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: just slam the door in my face really hard and
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: then yell at me through the door, you know, And
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: I think back to that time of my life. You know,
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: I'm like twenty seven, Yeah, twenty.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Eight, you're scared oh gosh, I was terrified. I worked
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: with this population. I was like twenty three years old.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: I had no idea what I was doing. A bachelor's
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: in psychology, but I had no idea what I was doing.
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I had no idea what I was getting into.
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: And I mean I would transport these clients. You know,
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: I had another client, this one's actually it kind of
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: might bring a little bit of light to this very
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: heavy subject. And I don't mind to openly talk about it,
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: but I was transporting a client and I know I've
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: told you this story before, you know, and I'm asking him,
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: actively asking him about his medication as I'm taking him home,
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: and this was something case managers did all the time.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: Looking back, I'm like, this was not safe. But he
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: looked over at me, just out of nowhere and said,
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: do you like oral sex? Because I would like to
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: give you oral sex. And this is a guy that
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: was like well into his sixties, old enough to be
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: my grandfather. And I was so taken aback by the
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: question that I plus, I felt immediately fearful because we
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: were confined to my car and I'm behind the wheel.
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: So I'm like, I have no idea what this guy
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: is about to do, and so I try to compose myself.
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: I look over at him and I'm like, I have
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: no idea what would make you ask me that question.
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: I'm your case manager, and I've never given you any
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: indication that I was anything more. And he was like, well,
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: do you like? He just acted like nothing, you know,
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: and I remember, you know, I said, well, that's completely inappropriate.
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: I'm going to turn around right now. I'm shaking, by
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: the way, keep in mind, like physically, I'm like shaking
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: and my voice is shaking, and I'm like, we're going
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: to turn around. I'm going to take you back to
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: the center, and we're going to find you another way home.
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: But of course we're like seven minutes from the center,
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: and I'm just gripping that steering wheel, like I don't
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: know what this guy is gonna do. And you know,
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: I remember he said, well, I didn't mean to upset you.
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: And of course this is a man that's been on
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: antipsychotics for years, so he had all the long term
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: side effects, big lower lip, slurred speech, you know, dreopy eyes,
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: all of these long term physical side effects of antipsychotics.
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: And so I finally get to the center, I like
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: throw my car and park and just run into the
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: center try like I just I'm waiting to unleash the fear.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: And I get into my supervisor's office and I just
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: lose it, I mean completely lose it. And she's like,
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: oh my gosh, did somebody die? And I tell her
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: the story and she's like, oh, yeah, he'll do that
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: from time to time. And I'm just like, what is happening?
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: What is happening here now? Granted I don't want to
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: I don't want to knock anyone in that situation. You know,
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, we were probably all overworked and underpaid.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: Definitely, but social workers.
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And but you know we were also in you know,
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: at this time, I lived in southeastern Kentucky where resources
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: just weren't plentiful, right, people and resources in general just
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: were not plentiful at all. So they were just working
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: with what they got. So no offense to her or anything.
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: She was just doing the best she could too. So
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: but I always, you know, I tell that story often
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: just because it was maybe the scaredest I've ever been
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: one of the I mean, in terms of like the
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: scary moments in my life. I was fearful. I was
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: fearful for I mean, I didn't know what he was
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: gonna do.
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: It is it is really hard to be around someone
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: with psychosis, the mood, liability, the ability for them to
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: kind of snap, yeah, and get very angry. I have witnessed.
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: And then if you know that someone is not in
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: touch with reality, that does open up the possibility that
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: they could harm you because they don't understand what's happening
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: right right, because they can't distinguish reality from fantasy at
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: this point.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you and I have witnessed this first week. Yeah,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: so we know this is possible.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: So why is half of the internet going absolutely bonkers
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: and the other half is saying you're crazy? This is
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: an open and shutcase. She admitted to doing it. Nobody's
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: disputing that. Okay, because there's holes.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: Here's were just broke down all the holes, guys.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: Well, we've gotten to some of them. Here's the evidence.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: And again I'm not saying she didn't do it. She
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: may very well have done it. And no matter who
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: did it, it's awful and terrible. And I get that
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: we want to hold someone accountable. Someone needs to be
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: held accountable, and we need to pray the blood of
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: Jesus over this entire situation, that God just intervenes in
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: any way that he possibly can, because in my opinion,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: this was demonically orchestrated.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: You all know my opinion on that, all right? What's wonky?
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: Fifteen pm departure timeline, the five to twenty four PM
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: work email, and the five thirty two pm CBS entry.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: This creates a seventeen minute interval.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: Where his departure sequence and his document an entry into
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: the store is unaccounted for. On redirect the prosecution address
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: the interval, Patrick was asked whether he could have reached
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: the CBS parking lot and remained in his vehicle while
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: sending the five twenty four email from his iPhone. He
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: agreed that is possible. However, he did not testify this
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: was definitely what happened, and did not really know what
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: happened between when he says he left and when he
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: entered the CBS parking lot. It does not establish wrongdoing,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: doesn't say he did it. But what we do know
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: is there's not then this minute to minute timeline that
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: makes sense where he claims I left at five fifteen
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: and the CBS is three minutes away, and then I
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: showed up at the CBS. Why have we not gotten
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: the metadata for this email? Surely that's available. Did it
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: come from his surface pro or did it come from
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: his iPhone? If it comes from the surface pro, which
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: is his computer at home, we know he was home
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: at five twenty four, which definitely shortens this window by
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: which Lindsay s allegedly killed her children. So why don't
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: we have that? Where's the metadata? Could it be coming
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: when the defense?
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: Where I get a little I don't know question, because again,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: if they're not pursuing any kind of third party theory,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: it would be irrelevant, be completely.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: Irrelevantah, So I'm questioning the defense of this point their angle.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: I guess unless he's got you know, the magic rabbit
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: and the Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: I think if you're trying to establish third party possibility, you're.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: Not leading with we know she killed her children, right
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: at least?
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, Okay.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: The differences in his shoes and top and the surveillance
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: footage has gone unexplained. Nobody has talked about it. We
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: do not know why. Again, if there's no third party accusations,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: it doesn't matter Patrick Clancy's restrained or flat courtroom affect.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: We have observed Patrick's courtroom demeter as unusually restrained, detached,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: and flat and talking about his children. Now, grief presentation
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: does differ dramatically among people, and dissociation will absolutely produce
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: flat affect. So if he's trying his best to kind
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: of dissociate from it, that could be an explanation. And
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: everybody else in the courtroom is crying. Lindsay is crying
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: hysterically throughout the trial, Her parents are crying. They keep
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: offering him tissues and he declines because he does not
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: need them. He does this unusual panting when he's describing
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: his children and what they liked and what they were like.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: It's body language experts have not testified, not entered the record,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: but have commented that this is unusual and appears performative,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: that it is not consistent with anxiety, which would have,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: you know, other features present.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: I don't think I can comment on that if I'm
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: not a body language expert comment on it.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: I would argue though, that potentially the breathing is because,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: you know, is he feeling so overwhelmed?
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: Is he feeling yet it's not this sort of breath
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: in deep and then trying to exhale regulation type of breath.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: It's more of a I just kind of random marathon
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: type of breathing without other stress indicators being present alongside it,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: according to the talking heads of social media who are
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: body language experts. So do with that what you will.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: It's not entered into evidence. It's not anything anybody's talked
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: about on the record. Let's talk about the physical evidence.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: No usable fingerprint identification on any of the exercise bands
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: used to kill the children, and no usable fingerprints found
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: on the knife used to create the last serrations on
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: Lindsay Clancy.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: No fingerprints.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: Then we get to the DNA evidence, and this is
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: where it.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: Gets really bizarre.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: For the yellow bands on the ends of the bands,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: Lindsay is excluded, Patrick is excluded, and Dawson, the child
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: is seen as being present one point seven non million
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: chance that it's him. There's a two person interpretation, so
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: there's two people's DNA. Lindsay however, is excluded and Patrick, however,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: is excluded. They cannot identify the other contributor. The yellow
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: bands in the middle, Lindsay is excluded, Patrick is included
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: at a one point four billion likelihood, Dawson is included
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: at one point five non million, and Callen, the youngest child,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: is included at three point six million. But they have
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: landed on a likely to person mixture and fullmilial relatedness
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: means Dawson, Callen, and Patrick cannot all be contributors despite
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: individual inclusionary statistics.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: So what makes this really hard?
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: So they're all related to each other except Lindsay and Patrick.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: So is it the kid or is it Lindsay is
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: at the kid?
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: Is it Patrick? Is it two of the kids?
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: That makes it very hard to tease a part right
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: whose it actually is? On the black Bands on the ends,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: Lindsay is unknown, Patrick is unknown. We do know there's
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: at least five possible contributors, and the profile was too
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: complex and not suitable for comparison. The middle of the
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: black bands, Lindsay had a likelihood ratio of eleven. So
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: we're talking like on the band that was used on Dawson,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: it was one point seven non million.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: I'm not even sure I know what a non million is. Yeah, okay,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: no clue.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: Lindsay was an eleven, Patrick was two hundred and twenty
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: thousand QRA was one point six non million, Dawson eight
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: hundred and seventy trillion, and Callen twenty six hundred three
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: person person mixture. The lab testified that validation studies produced
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: likelihood ratios of two to one thousand for known non contributors.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: So's Lindsay's likelihood ratio of eleven could reflect adventurous support,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: meaning that it's likely a false positive for Lindsay. So
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: she's not on the yellow bands a likelihood ratio of eleven, which.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: Is as close to excluded as you can get on
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: the black bands. But what was used the exercise bands?
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: But was it yellow or black? I'm confused.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: Yellow was used on Dawson, Black was used on Cora.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: I see for the blue bands used on Callen. The
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: blue ends Lindsay on the ends of the bands, Lindsay
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: is a contributor. Patrick is also a contributor. Cora, Dawson,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: and Callen are also contributors. The parties stipulated that DNA
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: from all five family men were present on the ends
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: of the blue bands. The middle of the blue bands,
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: Lindsay is not a contributor. Patrick is not specified as
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: a major contributor, and Callen is a major contributor. Contributor
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: available summary did not provide comparable Lindsay versus Patrick likelihood
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: ratio values.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: So conclusivity here says what all family members at some
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: point touched the bands? Probably, but in terms of strangulation,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: where you have to pull through the middle of a band, right,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: because that's what they're claiming, correct, You have to pool
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: with pressure.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: You have to pull with with with pressure, and apparently
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: there were knots tied around the neck, so you would
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: have to touch I'm guessing.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: The middle of the bands.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you would have to to get pressure. I mean,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 3: think about unless yeah, I mean even exercising with a band, right,
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: like you want more tension, you want more resistance, you're
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: gonna pull up on that.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: You're going to do they have handles? We haven't seen patures.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know that.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: I'm guessing they have handles because.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: And I'm sure this is something the forensic psychologist is
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: trying to break down.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: So it's very very weird and messy, and they don't
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure it tells the inconclusive and inconclusive and
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure it tells us much.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if at all.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: But Lindsay excluded all together from the yellow bands all together,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: excluded all together, excluded from the ends of the black,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: and as close as you get to excluded from the
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: ends or the middle of the black, contributor to the
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: ends of the blue, and excluded from the middle of
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: the blue. So that's what we have in terms of
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: Lindsay's DNA and no usable fingerprints that match and sees
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: on it either the bands or the knife used to
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: create the lacerations.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: So this tells my brain all family members have sometimes
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: touched the bands, maybe use them to exercise, of course
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: in some capacity, played with them, or whoever committed the
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: murders had gloves on, potentially.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: Allegedly maybe No, we don't know, we don't know, we
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: I'm just, I'm just This is strictly.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: Opinion, Okay.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: Jennifer Tuff's contemporaneous note not hyper comma pressured speech.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 3: Break that down. I can't even know what the are.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: During doctor Jennifer Tuff's testimony, she looks at her notes
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: and she has written down not hyper comma pressured speech.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: Pressured speech can be an indicator of mania and potentially psychosis.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: Jennifer said I meant to write not pressured speech. Kevin
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: Reddington said, well, what did you write? It says pressured speech,
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: and she said, but that's not what I meant. So
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: they had this whole back and forth argument exchange that
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: she wrote pressured speech, but she didn't mean to write
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: pressured speech. She meant to write not pressured speech. So
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: that's a pretty bad typo to make. This is why
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: people who are in this field need to take incredibly
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: careful and good notes. And what I know from directing
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: to graduate psychology clinical programs is that they don't. They're rushed,
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: they have tons of people that they see, and likelihood
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: of error can be high. In leaving out the word
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: not that means too totally different.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: There traumatic error.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: At this point. So those are the wtfs. So I
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: think the psychology is something that is not being talked
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: about that needs to be talked about. The unreliability of
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: memory in general for your average, everyday person. The extreme
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: unreliability for false memories, particularly autobiographical memories in psychosis patients,
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: is well documented throughout the scientific literature. Those that are
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: vulnerable and abused or under any kind of coercive control
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: have a much higher likelihood of false falsely confessing.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 3: Which we didn't even get into the allegations of Patrick
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: and affairs.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: And things like that.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: It's because there's no nobody's really looked into that. We
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: do know that he left on a trip from New
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: York in November after Lindsay had had suicidal ideation and
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: intrusive thoughts of harming the kids. We also know he
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: admits to on the stand taking ski trips, including taking
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: a t trip very close to when the children were killed,
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: to go skiing with his oldest daughter and one of
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: her friends and her friend's dad, So he knows his
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: wife is very much struggling. There appears that to be
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: some involvement in her care by Patrick, where he comes
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: to some of the appointment appointments, the telehealth appointments, and
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: I believe assists her in getting checked into the McLean hospital. However,
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: he admits on the stand that he quote wasn't very
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: involved or I should say not quote something around the
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: effect of not being very involved in her care in
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: the beginning, and having some concerns about multiple medications being prescribed.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: Well, and you just said something else that I didn't
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 3: know there was an older child was it Lindsay and
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 3: Patrick's child.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: No, there's only three children.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: Oh co he ran on a ski trip with his
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: oldest daughter.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, Cora.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 3: Cora was before. I thought it was after the murders,
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 3: Before the murders.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: He goes on very soon, I believe, like the murders
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: were about to happen, and he takes this ski trip
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: so he feels comfortable leaving Lindsay.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 3: Knowing what's transpired up to that point.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: And his sort of argument is like, well, she seemed
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: to be getting better, she was having some good days
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: and apparently she was having quote one of her best
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: days before the killings, which is consistent with what we
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: know for postpartum psychosis that you can rapidly fluctuate in
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: your stability, your coherence, your demeanor, your understanding of reality.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: And hormones do they play a role, I.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: Mean completely play a role.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: Hormones dramatically affect our brains, dramatically affect.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: Our fluctuating a lot during post during.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: The postpartum period. And you know our hormones and our
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: neurotransmitter levels have some degree of correlation.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 3: She could have had a big influx of estrogen progesterone
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: that day, before, which would cause a state of almost
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: feeling better, yeah, heightened happiness, joy, and then a crash,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 3: a bottom.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: Out potentially, and then.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: The amount and levels of psychiatric medication in her blood
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: I think raise considerable questions as to what her mental
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: state could have been. So I think that the psychology
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: we need to look at is not just the psychology
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: of Lindsay. It's the psychology of who's watching this trial
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: right now, because I have never seen.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: People go at it like I have with this trial.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: And maybe it's my algorithm because I wanted to cover
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: this episode. And so it's like, once you watched one video,
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: all they want to try to send you is more videos.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: But we have people, and this is just what I'm seeing.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: The people that are vehemently convinced that she did this
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: and it was planned and she's just an ordinary psychopath
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: without active psychosis and premeditated and planned this are all
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: in that I have seen again, are all in the
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: field of law or.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: Policing.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: And the people who are going hold on a second
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: are very much abuse in dB survivors, which would give
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: them a bias, sure, And those that are on the
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: side of Okay, let's say she did do it, but
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: she was psychotic. Are are usually in the field of
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: mental health, psychology, psychiatry.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think the deeper psychology too, is just
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 3: women's psychology.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: And women's mental health trade.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: In general.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: We have an extremely flawed and la unacceptable system of
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: care for postpartum women in this country. Absolutely unacceptable.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: You mean to tell me that we get to see
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: a doctor once a month when we're pregnant, if not
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: at the end, more than once a month, and that
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: after six weeks you'll just say.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: We're fine and let us go when we not even begin.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 3: We know it takes to being normalized. I didn't feel
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 3: normal again after my pregnancy and labor and delivery for
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 3: two years minimum.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: There's a reason my children are six years apart. I
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: had a horrific time with Gabby.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: There's a reason I only have one, you know, because
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 3: it was hard.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: It's so hard. I think postpartum is harder than the pregnancy,
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: oh for sure. And we give it no attention.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 3: And there's no research.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: There's fragmen in system of care in our country is pitiful.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: Nobody talks to each other, nobody works with each other.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: There's no care teams anywhere even experiencing quote care teams
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: with my mom's cancer diagnosis. They're all supposed to be
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: on a team, and none of them talk to each other,
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: none of them know what's going on. I've experienced that
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: over and over and over and over and over again.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's the real wake up call here.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: You know, we need knowledge.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: And so here's the argument, right if people are pushing
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: back and say, we don't think Lindsay did this. We
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: don't think she did this.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: Her DNA is not there, her fingerprints aren't there, she
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: was psychotics, so we can't trust her memory she is.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: You know, if she really wanted to commit suicide, she
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: probably would have done a different then she did.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: And what was this escape we're talking about.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: Her choices would have been mental hospital or prison, like
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: neither one of those is good.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: Then, you know, if we're talking about this just gigantic deterioration,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: and if she didn't do it, then we're not going
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: to really address the failure of the medical system because
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: we're saying she didn't do it right.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 3: So that would be a travesty in itself.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: That would be a travesty because we need to be
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: able to shed light on the fact that this woman
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: was begging and pleading for help.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and this isn't the first time it's happened, and
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 3: it won't be the last, not unless we wake up
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: and start to change things.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: We have to do something her postpartum women in this country.
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: We have to.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 3: Do something women's health in general, and women's health in.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: General is we just like twenty years ago, started putting
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: women in research studies somewhat equally to men. Every medication
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: we got was studied on men.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 3: And we all know women's bodies are extremely complex, not
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 3: that men's aren't. I'm just saying much more complex than
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: a man's potentially.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: Because we have a lot more hormone fluctuations during.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 3: And we grow human beings, We grow humans in our bodies.
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: And then the state of support for families, not just women,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: but families is non existent in this country. Non existent.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: There is no familial support. There's no support for men
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: to try to understand what's happening with their wives or
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: girlfriends or baby mama's whatever you want to say. There's
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: no support for them to understand. And what we know
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: about certain profiles of men, those that are dismissive, avoidant,
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: those that are narcissistic, they leave and or get angry
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: when their wives are most vulnerable.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 3: Yes, and this isn't us knocking men, this is just spitting.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: This is just fact.
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is this is an.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: All guys, This is an all miss It's not all men,
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: but it is a fact that certain men are much
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: more likely to leave their partners or hurt their partners
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: when they are pregnant or postpartum.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's really where the awareness needs to
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 3: be is right here. How we're wrapping this up. Obviously,
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 3: this trial is getting a ton of attention and a
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 3: ton of you know, people talking about it on social media,
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 3: But this is really about awareness and how we can
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 3: help and are part of what we can do to
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 3: bring awareness to these things that women are struggling with,
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 3: to the point of where children get murdered. Right, Like,
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 3: if that doesn't wake you up, I don't know what can.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: Right And regardless if you're listening to this and going
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: she definitely didn't do it, or she did it, or
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: she was saying when she did it, or maybe she
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: wasn't saying when she did it, three children died.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: A tragic, horrific death. And I think we need we
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: need God, we need spiritual protection over the evil of
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: this world. Satan is the ruler of the world. God
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: is the ruler of their heaven, and Satan is the
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: ruler of the world. And if you do not think
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: he is alive and well and that.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: He orchestrated, he orchestrated all of this.
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: He orchestrated not only the crimes themselves, but he's orchestrating
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: the division we see now amongst people. The people that
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: are coming out and saying that something isn't right here,
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: and there's details that don't add up, and we're not
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: sure what really happened here. Those people are getting death threats.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: Those people they're screaming at each other on social media.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: So not only does the devil orchestrate these crimes in
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: the first place, then he's going to pit all of
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: us against each other in the process. And we need
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: to stop, and we need to realize that we are
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: all looking at things in life through our own lived experiences,
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: our own intuition, and our own knowledge of aspects of
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: this case.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: My training.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: Has included lots of exposure to Elizabeth Loftus's research, to
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: other memory researchers who show us that memory is insanely malleable,
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: and I have been exposed. You know, I minreed in criminology.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: I wanted to go to law school before I decided
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: on graduate school. I took a year off to decide.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: It was like basically a coin flip for me. So
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: I've always been very interested in the law, specifically criminal law,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: and in the psychology of false confessions. And they happen,
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: and they happen most to people in psychosis and abused women,
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: that's who, and other cognitively impaired populations. So people with
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: low IQ, people with cognitive disabilities, they are also vulnerable
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: populations where false confessions are higher. So I think it
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: is unfair to come at someone who is questioning things
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: and saying something doesn't look right or feel right here,
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: and that their intent is not to somehow dramatically dismiss
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: postpartum mental illness. I think, why can't we just all
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: maintain curiosity and openness to evidence presented and focus on
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: the fact that this is a tragedy and we need.
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: Better care for postpartum mothers.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 3: That's the only thing that we'll ever change. It is
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 3: becoming a collective in some sense behind it. You know,
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 3: whether you agree or disagree, but collectively agreeing to disagree
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 3: right is where right change can happen. That's right, and
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: you know that would require God.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: We know that, we know that, without a shadow of
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: a doubt, this is nothing but evil. And you know
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: the enemy has access to our minds. We've known that
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: since the beginning of time. When Eve ate the apple,
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: it was the snake.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: That told her to do it.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: So regardless of your spiritual beliefs, I think everybody listening
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: here will at least agree that this was a tragedy
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: that somehow, some ways should have been able to be prevented.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: And a lot more could come out that maybe negates
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: things that we had to say today when the defense
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: presents its evidence and witnesses.
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 3: Well, and we've reached out to Professor Loftus hoping that,
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 3: you know, maybe she can she.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: Can give us the comment. She is by far one
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: of the most world renowned memory researchers and her research
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: is fascinating. You can go to YouTube and just YouTube.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: Her and watch some of her videos on her research
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: and the studies that she conducts.
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 3: Oh sure, she's a genius.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: She's a genius, and we can I have a clip
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: and we can even insert a clip on the YouTube
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: episode of her talking about memory because we mistakenly think
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: that if someone says it happened, it happened. Yeah, we
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: know that eyewentness testimony is extremely unreliable. People's own memories
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: are unreliable.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 3: So well, guys, if you've made it this far, we
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 3: are so grateful for you. We realized this was a
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: little bit longer today, but it took that time to
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 3: really break down obviously the details and the accuracy of
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 3: the trial. We you know, doctor Hinsley wanted to make
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 3: sure that she got all that accurate. So thank you
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 3: guys so much for being here. Continue to tune in, like, subscribe,
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 3: leave us a comment. We can't wait to hear your
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 3: feedback on this episode. And be kind please and until
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 3: next time, peace, love, and perspectives.