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Moving Past Traditionalist Debates · Crisis Point

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to Crisis Point. I'm Eric Sammons, and today we have special guest Timothy Flanders. How's it going, Tim?
• 0:16
  Speaker B: I'm too blessed to be stressed, but I'm still stressed, so working on that. How are you doing?
• 0:21
  Speaker A: Here we go. I just. I'm gonna kick it off. I was gonna do something, but I saw this comment, said this guy has been kind of off the rails lately. Not gonna lie. So I assume he's talking about you. So this will be a good opportunity to explain to everybody why you're off the rails. But no, but seriously. Oh, you know, Okay. I have to do something first. I stopped a while back asking people to subscribe to the channel and like. And subscribe. That whole thing, I just, like, that's kind of dumb. It's like people just gonna do it. I have noticed since I stopped saying that I get less subscription people subscribing. I haven't changed. The views haven't gone down. They've gone up. But the number of people subscribed has gone way down. So that's my way of saying, people, what are you doing out there? I'm gonna put the little button up there. Subscribe to the channel. So please do that. And now I am going to annoy you at the beginning of every podcast going forward to tell you to subscribe, because you weren't doing it. So for those of us who were, those of you who were subscribing, thank you. I appreciate it. You are the true fans. Anyway. Okay, now let's get back to what we're really talking about. I. I posted something the other day on X where I basically said, maybe it's just because I'm getting old. I don't know what it is. I'm just kind of getting tired of a lot of the debates that kind of consume the traditionalist world. And a number of people said, yeah, they kind of agree. And I don't know if it's because first I want to ask you what. If you think that or he. Or not, but also if maybe it's just because Pope Francis gave us all our energy. I mean, Pope Francis in a lot of ways was like our Soviet Union. I mean, he just. If you're old enough, you understand that reference.
• 2:03
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 2:03
  Speaker A: Like, I mean, everything we did in America was like, okay, it was. We had to beat the Soviets. We had. You know, the Soviets were the great evil empire. We had to resist them. And I feel like the traditional movement, for about 10 years, that's what it was, how it was defined as we had to resist Francis. And by the way, I'm not taking back things I said in the past about Francis or anything like that, or other people said. I think he was an awful Pope. But now that we have Leo, who's clearly different, I feel like the wind is out of the sails a little bit, or maybe we're just moving on or whatever. So I just wanted to first get your overall thoughts on this whole, because you're more in it than I am. I mean, 1 Peter 5 is a traditionalist, you know, magazine, whereas Crisis is. Is less so. I mean, I'm a traditionalist Catholic, I consider myself. But our magazine is much more noso ordo conservative Catholic, whatever you want to call it, than 1 Peter 5 is. So kind of. What are your thoughts on that?
• 3:02
  Speaker B: Yeah, I. I mean, I agree in general, I. I think that there are. The traditional movement has been going on since I. What I do is I date it from 1964, when una voce was founded to preserve the Latin Mass. Obviously, there's various antecedents and whatnot. So. But we could say, you know, traditional movement as a modern school of thought or general movement in the Latin right of the Catholic Church has been going on since 1964. And I think that, in my opinion, I definitely think that after the communications of the sspx, we need to kind of take stock of the history of our movement. And in my view, I do think that there are certain arguments that we do need to leave behind. We need to kind of get past them. I do think that traditionalists, sometimes we get into a very. A bad mindset. We start to make bad arguments, we start to circle the wagons. And I get that because, you know, many of us have been beaten down. We've been, you know, spiritually abused or just. We feel wounded by real or perceived abuses and things going on, all sorts of problems that have been going on. And it's. It's a real cross. It's a very, very difficult cross, but we have to carry the cross like Christians. Of course. That's what we all want to do. So I want to think about the future of the TRAD movement. And so I do think certain arguments should be left behind.
• 4:41
  Speaker A: Would you say, okay, I want to ask, what are some of those arguments? But what would you say? Do people just say, well, you're just kind of giving up. You're just kind of. We're still in this battle. We're still. We need to defend traditional practices? I mean, obviously the TLM is still being persecuted in a lot of places. Even under Pope Leo, he hasn't rescinded tradition as custodes. You know, the battles here. Are we just kind of putting down our swords and giving up the fight?
• 5:10
  Speaker B: Oh, certainly not. We're. We need to fight the spiritual battle. I mean, first of all, first and foremost, we need to defend the. I wrote an article three or four months ago. It was called, is there any tradition more important than the Latin Mass? And I said, yes, there is. It's the tradition of mystical prayer. It's the mystical prayer tradition. So something you wrote about, too. You wrote an article called Tradition is a Means to an end.
• 5:37
  Speaker A: Right.
• 5:38
  Speaker B: And I think that this is kind of cuts to the very heart of the whole traditionalist movement, is that it's just zealous Catholic hearts who have experienced the Eucharistic Lord in the Latin Mass, and they've never experienced him, and not that he wasn't present elsewhere, but there's just something that they've known in their prayer life, in their interior life in the Latin Mass. And what we need to leave behind is we need to leave behind sort of a methodology of tradition that does not prioritize that tradition is the means to that end. We can erect these idols out of various aspects of the truth which are true. But then we can get so focused on these one things that we can miss the larger. You know, I, for example, just give you an example I heard of just we can get really excited about one external aspect of the mass. External aspects of the Mass are critically important. We do. We want to defend all of the external aspects of the Mass. We want to defend the eucharistic reverence and every maximizing, every external aspect. We can. But if you get so fixated on that, you will be so distracted, it'll be very difficult for you to enter into the reality of the Mass. So I think these are like, deeper, deeper issues that we need to address. These are. And I want to emphasize, you know, these are. I cite an article by Father Shed rebger. It's called 10 problems in the traditional movement. I think it's over 10 years old now. And what I'm saying is these were identified, you know, over very many years ago by Father Chad Ripperger, you know, a respected priest in the traditional movement. And I'm saying these problems are still alive and well, and we need to really address them.
• 7:37
  Speaker A: Okay, so practical here to win Swiss Pope, particularly, you and I both wrote articles lamenting things that that happened. For example, tradition custodes came out when Latin masses were revoked at various Places like in Charlotte and places like that. So what do we do now? If, like, I mean, the shirt slant Mass just got taken. Where was that? It just got taken away. Toronto, I think it was. They just re. He just restrict the bishop there. Just restricted it. I mean, are we just supposed to kind of be quiet? Should we just not say anything? Is it a matter of pick your battles? I mean, how. How do you think we should go about talking about that stuff? Just ignore it, just. Or. Or go crazy like we did in the past or what?
• 8:25
  Speaker B: Well, it just depends on how can you win the heart of your bishop? It's all about winning the heart of your father, who is the father of your diocese. And that's going to depend on different dioceses and different situations. We had that happen in the Diocese of Chicago. You know, obviously, Cardinal Cupich is famous, infamous for various views he has on the liturgy. And there were two different traditionalist parishes that took two different approaches. After traditionos custodes, there was St. John Cantius who said, okay, we are going to play along. We'll do what you say and we'll work with you. So they were willing to celebrate the new rite once a month. And as a result, a strong. This is a strong institution. St. John Kanchus, if you've been in there, I mean, it's like a. This is. Back in the 90s, they had sancta mesa.org and whatnot. And then there's the Institute of Christ the King. Parish said, no, we will not do that. And they were completely suppressed. And there is pros and cons to both approach here. And it's also going to depend on the faithful and what they're willing to do here. And it's just a very difficult situation. And I don't think we can say one particular approach is going to be the best approach everywhere. It's going to be very different in different places. The most important part is that we suffer the cross. We take the crosses that come to us and we suffer manfully like Christians. But how can we win over the bishops? How can we win them over and. And convince them of the rightness of this liturgical reverence? I. I think that there is a shift, certainly happening with the. With the younger priests. There is a shift definitely happening, and it's going to take decades and whatnot. But I. I think the momentum is on our side. It's. But the fight is going to be depending on your local situation.
• 10:23
  Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like for a number of years, in the first, even decade of Francis pontificate, a lot of it was just about getting the word out that there is a traditional at Mass, that there is a different, that the way Pope Francis is presenting the faith is not typically usually consistent with traditional Catholic ways of looking at it. And it was like it was such a shock to the system because we can all have our criticism and whatnot of JP2, but in general, the, the perception was Catholic was, okay, this guy is orthodox. He's, you know, believes what the Church has always believed. Saint Pope Benedict, obviously the same. Then all of a sudden we get Francis and I know people who are really into stuff like the, the, the theology nerds, people super into this stuff. We know the nuances. We know that Paul VI had problems. All this stuff. I'm just talking about the average Catholic when France, the average, like, believing conservative Catholic when Francis came, it was a shock to their system. And so a lot of traditionals, I think, were like, okay, we need to, this is an opportunity to let the kind of, the conservative Catholics, the conservative notice, oral Catholics know, okay, it goes deeper than just Francis. It's not just, okay, Francis has some problems. This is a deeper thing than that. And I felt like we took advantage of that, which is a good thing. And so I think that's why traditional movement grew by so much during Francis's pontificate. But my own view and I, I came out and I said this about nine months before Francis passed away. I said, I'm just going to stop criticizing him publicly. I just was like, I'm not saying people who do criticism are wrong. I'm not saying there aren't things to criticize. I'm just saying I, I'm not going to do it myself. And the reason I did that a lot, there are spiritual reasons, like personal, spiritual reasons, but really a big reason. Simply, I thought there was diminishing returns at that point. Everybody knew who Francis was. Everybody knew where he came, what he stood for. Everybody knew the basic arguments like that. And so just continually into saying, oh, look at this terrible thing he did. I felt like all that was doing was just raising people's blood pressure, getting people anxious, upset. Whereas I didn't think that necessarily in 2018 or something, or 2017 or something like that. I did think in 2024. And so I, I, that's been my own. And we'll talk about Leo here in a minute. But that was my own kind of evolution. And I feel like that's kind of a little bit what you're saying here. It's not that what we believe has changed at all it's just simply the, the means by which we are fighting has adjust. We at least I think, and I think you think have, have, have, have to be changed. Just doing the exact same thing we did in 2017 when the situation on the ground is different, 2026, I think makes sense. Does that kind of correspond with what you're saying here and thinking?
• 13:19
  Speaker B: Yeah, I'm certainly, like, I talked about this in my article called My Struggle as editor of 1 Peter 5. There is just a very difficult. I mean, it's a difficult balance to address. Try to. I mean, I've struggled in my own conscience. I've lost sleep over this. I'm like, I want to try to tell the truth about what's being said or what's happening with the Vatican. I want to tell the truth. I don't want to, like, sugarcoat it. But then I'm also faced with the problems that when I tell the truth, the truth is so ugly sometimes that it hardens our hearts against the Holy Father or our priests or our bishops, and it hardens our hearts. So there's this truth and charity aspect. It's very difficult thing to walk. But I do think that the more we complain online in a spirit of complaining, not just like, I'm trying to tell the truth here, but the more, like, we get. We get addicted. Like, speaking of Pope Leo, we can talk about, like, AI and all the social media. Like, the more we get addicted to complaining and getting clicks online, it just. I don't think it helps our cause with winning over the bishops. Now, some would say, you know, this is a lost cause. Why are you even trying to work with the bishops? Why are you trying to work with the Vatican? You know, this is never going to work. You know, they're all modernists. They believe in Vatican ii. But I think that it's a little bit more complicated than that. I don't think that that argument is very deep theologically or deep in the history. I think it's. These are the types of things that I think hurt our movement. Like Pope Leo said in the run up to. It's clear that he, you know, he said in the fall, when he talked about the Latin Mass for the first time, he said, I have not. It said something like, I have not talked to these people. So it's clear that he really did. It wasn't really familiar. He spent 20 years in Peru fighting with the Marxists and whatnot. People are starving and all this stuff in Peru that they just don't have. Sounds like in Peru, they just don't really have a concern about these liturgical problems. It's just not the situation in Peru. That's what it sounds like, based on my research. And so he comes into the pontificate and he. Everybody's talking to him about this Latin Mass thing, and he's like, I haven't even talked to these people. But what did he say? He said, all these bishops tell me that these trads want to be with us. They don't want to. He says, the bishops tell me we invite them to XYZ and they don't want to come. They don't want to be a part of us. They want to be off in their separate world. Now, to a degree, we do want to be in a separate world because we want to preserve this tradition, the Latin Mass, but this is something that needs to change right here. Like, we need, like I went to 1 Peter 5, went to the Eucharistic Congress, for example, in Indianapolis. We went to that because we are trying to, you know, come to the things that the bishops invited us bishops invited the whole United States to that. We wanted to go. And, and I. There was a bishop who came up to me at my table and he said, there are many people who have. You have lots of support among the bishops, but we just got to make that connection. And I know, I know there's bad bishops. This is a really difficult situation. So nothing, what I'm saying is easy, but I think that this is the Christian way, is to connect with our bishop and try to work with them and really, really suffer through that. This is why I think the sspx, what the SSPX is doing is the opposite direction of the long term solution. So I don't know if that gets at what you're saying.
• 17:09
  Speaker A: Yeah, and we'll get to the society here in a minute. I think that's a great point. And that bishop saying that to you at the Eucharistic Congress was pretty revealing because I think if you ask the Average traditional Catholic, average 1P5 reader, do you think any bishops read or like 1P or 5? I bet you most of them say maybe one or two. And here's a bishop actually telling you face to face, no, there's. There's more support for you than you might think. And I think that does remind us. This is something that was a real revelation to me when I worked directly for a bishop. I mean, I was, he was my boss, my direct boss, and so I worked with him a lot. And you realize that they're first of all, they're just men with very difficult jobs. I mean, just re. I mean, literally, it's probably the last job in the world I'd ever want.
• 17:59
  Speaker B: Right.
• 18:00
  Speaker A: It's a very lonely job, and it's basically a game of whack a molecule. And like I was saying this in a recent podcast, that one thing traditionalists need to understand is how little on the radar we are for most bishops. Your typical bishop, let's say I just take my own diocese. Archdiocese. My bishop in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, you know, he's relatively new. He came about a year ago. Everything. Everybody says good things about him. He's every. I have no reason to say anything against him, and I probably wouldn't if I did. But. But the point is that he's. He's fine. I'm willing to bet, based on my own experience, that about 99.9 of his thinking has nothing to do with the traditional Latin Mass or Traditionalist. It probably comes up once in a blue moon, something crosses his desk or whatever. It just isn't something he is going to be concerned about. Not because he think he hates him, he hates the trads, or he's against something like that. No, it's just simply he's got a job to do and he's got tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands of Catholics that he's overseeing, of which a very, very small number care anything about the traditional at Mass, by the way. I think that's unfortunate. I wish every Catholic cared about traditional at Mass. I'm just simply stating reality here.
• 19:21
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 19:22
  Speaker A: And so he's going to. That's his sheep. He's going to reach out to his sheep and pastor them, you know, where they are, you know, and it's, it's so this idea that. But it's not. And I know there are some bishops who truly do have issues with traditionalism, with traditional at Mass. I mean, the guy down in Charlotte seems to be a real piece of work who really has some problems. But, like, that's just not the normal thing, I think, for most bishops. And so like you were saying, how do we work in that situation? I mean, it's like I feel like the 10 years after Francis became Pope or so was one of kind of rallying the troops. Like, okay, there is an alternative. Like, in my mind, Francis was almost the, like the, the epitome of the spirit of Vatican ii. He is the, the, the result of it. He is the pinnacle of wasn't. So it wasn't always immediately clear to everybody under JP2 and Benedict, the problems of the spirit of vacuum. 2. Yeah, people complained about, but I think with Francis they saw it so clearly. And so we were like, hey, here's the alternative. The post conciliatory project has failed miserably and here's an alternative to that. And then, you know, so a lot of people joined it, which is great, but at the same time, I see a lot of people joined it. It went from being almost non existent to being less than almost non existent. I mean, we're still very small. We're under 10%, you know, probably under 5% in America. I think in other countries it's even less than that. Like you were saying, Pope Leo in Peru probably had very little interaction with traditionalists down there. And so I think that's something we just need to keep in mind. And, and so I think one thing I'm trying to say here is our discussion is about prudence. It's about prudential decisions. It's not about, okay, is this true or is this not true about the, the Latin Mass or theology? It's about, okay, how do we promote what we believe? So it spreads throughout the Church. I think in the 2010s, the way it was done was very good. Under Pope Francis, it needed to be more of a aggressive, almost in your face, almost like, okay, here we are. Because we needed it to get out there. But now I feel like that's changing some and it can backfire. That same attitude, I think back can backfire today. And I know that's going to what you're going to talk a little bit about, of course, with the sspx. But before we get to that, I just want to ask you, how do you think Pope Leo then changes the equation? Like, I think that's all part of what I was saying. I know some people want to say he's like Francis 2.0. He's actually worse than Francis because he's like nicer about his, his radicalism, whatever. But how would you kind of say Pope Leo fits into all this?
• 22:11
  Speaker B: I think that as traditional Catholics, we need to have this pious heart for the Holy Father, in my opinion. So we need to continue to love him and give him the best benefit of the doubt possible. Get to know him. We want to get to know him. There was a, there was a little dust up about. He made a comment about the Mass of the Ages a couple weeks ago, but that was at a Wednesday audience. And how many of us have actually read through his Wednesday audiences before that, before he got to that Point to try to get to know what he's saying. Where is he coming from? I think that when we understand what formed a man's priesthood, we can understand where is his pastoral heart. And, you know, his first document was about the poor. I mean, he is his art. His interview with Crux, where he first mentioned the Latin Mass, Crux asked him, what about LGBT issues? And he was like, well, most of the world doesn't really think about that. Well, he meant Southern hemisphere, you know, like South America, Africa. Like, these poor nations, they don't. They don't have time to deal with that because they have to make children. You know, they just don't have time for these rich Germans to feed their children. So it's just like, you know, he's coming from a totally different world, like Pope Francis, into a degree. He's coming from that world. I think Pope Francis, you know, he held these comments about America, for example. You know, that's. That's a common attitude in certain places in Latin America for and for good reason in certain cases. And I'm sure we'd agree on about American foreign policy. I mean, I just think that. And I want to reference Mr. Michael Matt here. Michael Matt was. He said like, months ago. I can't remember when it was, but he was just like. I think it was before the SSPX stuff, actually. He just said, like, I want to be if. If Pope Leo is a bad Pope. He said something like, I want to be the last one to decide that he's a. He's a bad boy. Like, I want to just continue to try to give him better the belt forever, and then I'll be the last one to say, okay, fine, he is Francis T. Point, you know, so this is. I think this is a pious attitude. This is. And this is difficult. It's just such a difficult thing to try to try to deal with the truth of the matter. But also, I want to emphasize something you've emphasized a lot that I try to emphasize as much as I can, which is just, you know, it's okay to ignore the Vatican. It's okay. Just. It's okay to just live a very traditional Catholic life in the sense of, like, stop watching this podcast right now. Like, go back to your, hey, wait a minute.
• 24:54
  Speaker A: Wait till the podcast is over.
• 24:56
  Speaker B: But I mean, I mean, like, you don't need. Like, you don't need to follow the news like this. This can be spiritually harmful for you. You know, this is what I love about. Here's what I love about 1 Peter 5, Eric I love publishing articles about music and architecture and literature and Catholic tradition and liturgy and ancient feast days that have been lost. I love publishing. That's like, my favorite thing to publish at 1 Peter V. But what gets the clicks back in drama. So it's a difficult balance.
• 25:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, it really is, and it always has been. It's been a struggle. I mean, it's not like some private thing to say that your predecessor at 1 Peter 5 see Skocheck, you know, he struggled with a lot of that. I think he admits it very freely with kind of getting so far into the news and seeing it. Roger is another example of somebody who got really into the muck, into the evil that goes on in the church, and it led him outside of the church. And so I do think they are some, you know, real, real issues there. Honestly, I. I feel like Michael Matt is a great example. I don't know how he does it, to be honest, because the guy will be very, like, hardcore harsh against things going on bad in the church, and yet he also has this very gregarious attitude and magnanimous attitude is probably the better word of like, hey, I'll be your friend. I'll. I'll work with you. What can we do? A bishop who's like, barely cares about the traditional Ms. I'll be your best friend. That's fine. Let's go. Let's work together. I remember, you know, I guess, years before I got to Crisis, Crisis had some things against the Remnant, and there was some bad blood there. And I remember a few years ago, Michael Matt reached out to me and said, hey, would you like to come speak at the Catholic Identity Conference? Which is, you know, his conference. He does coming up very soon. You're going to be there, right, Tim?
• 26:55
  Speaker B: Are you going? So, yeah, hopefully meet y'.
• 26:57
  Speaker A: All.
• 26:58
  Speaker B: Anybody who wants to. Yes, meet up in Pittsburgh. We'll see you in Pittsburgh a few weeks.
• 27:02
  Speaker A: But a few years ago, yeah, he. He invited me to come speak. And. And it was partly because he. He's like. He wanted to bury any hatchet on me. Of course, I didn't have a personal hatchet because I wasn't in crisis before, but there was this kind of public dispute between the two, and so. And he was so, like, happy to have me there. He was just, like, excited about Crisis being kind of part of the team, one of the clans getting united and stuff like that. And so I. I think some of it's just. Is naturally, you know, I'm sure it's got to do with his Spirituality, but also his magnanimous personality.
• 27:32
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 27:33
  Speaker A: And I do think that's something we can do. Now. The reality is not everybody can do that in the sense that, like, Michael seems to be the type of guy who can really dig into the news, look at all the bad stuff going on, yet he keeps this kind of attitude of. Of joy and, and like, just keep. And soldiering on like that. Not everybody can do that. And so that's why we shouldn't, like, imitate him in the sense that if you can't. If somebody can't do that, that's. It harms their. Their peace and everything like that. Well. Well, don't do it. But I just think he's a good model for that. I want. What I want to bring up now, though, is like, I'm with you on Leo. I think, like, I wrote an article a few years ago, I guess it was maybe three or four years ago, about Pope Francis. And I said, basically, he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore. After over a decade of doing what he did, making very clear we wanted. What I mean by that is I wasn't going to try to explain away everything he said and be like, okay, you know, he didn't really mean this. It's like, it's clear he had some wrong ideas and he. He seemed to hate the traditional movement. He seemed to not understand it at all as well. And so there's no reason to be like, okay, but as soon as Leo became Pope, that all changes because he does deserve the benefit of doubt. Everybody does on some level. The Pope does more than anybody to a certain. To a certain point, if. If he continually. But after a decade, I was like, no, Francis doesn't deserve it anymore because he had basically made. So there's no doubt anymore where he stood. But that is not true of Leo. And so I don't. I think that it's kind of what Michael Matt was saying about, like, I won't be the last one to say he's Francis 2.0, something like that. It's a good attitude to have. Now I want to get into probably the most controversial thing. It's the biggest news in the trad world this year. And that's, of course, the SSPX Episcopal consecrations. I don't think I haven't had you on since it happened. I think I had you on like, before that. But you've kind of made some waves because you basically posted something at 1 Pier 5 this week that you said, I am. I was wrong about the SSPX and I know you're getting heat from. From it. I mean, when I was kind of opposing the episcopal consecrations back in June and July, I was getting a lot of heat for that from defenders of sspx. I think part of it is because you and I have defended the society for many years. We have supported it. We have. I mean, neither of us attend a society chapel, but both of us were definitely very supportive of it. We've had sspx. I've been SSPX priest on this podcast before. You've. You've run articles by society priest and lay people, and so have I. And now all of a sudden, we were opposing it. And so I think that I understand, first of all, why there was a backlash, because it's like, hey, in their perspective, we're betraying them. And I get that.
• 30:31
  Speaker B: Why.
• 30:31
  Speaker A: Why you might think that. I think. I feel like I was always consistent because I'd always opposed the 88 consecrations.
• 30:36
  Speaker B: Right. But.
• 30:38
  Speaker A: And so opposing this was like, nothing different for me, but I get it. So why don't you lay out kind of the crux of your article you had earlier this week where you say, I was wrong about the sspx. Like, what were you wrong about? What did you used to think? What has really. And what has changed? Why has your mind changed?
• 30:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, first of all, I. I just want to, you know, I just assume we're all trying our best here. We're trying to make sense of a difficult situation that's the same as me, same as you, same as everybody watching this podcast. We're all trying our best here. So I think we need to just be merciful to each other. And that's what I'm trying to approach this, because essentially, in my view, the SSPX has crossed a line that I cannot cross. I cannot cross that line. But I also want to be merciful to the SSPX and try to oppose this sort of cancellation of the SSPX that people want to do. They want to just sort of dismiss everything the SSPX has done since 1970. And when I read Cardinal Ratzinger's, his speech from 1988 from July, and what he said, that really helped me take an approach to this, where it was like, we really need to face these issues. The SSPX is trying to call the Church to face these issues. They need to be faced, I just think that there is a line in the sand that I can't cross. Now, I've tried to study this issue as best I Can and do it as fairly as I can. As everyone knows that I've since taken over 1 Peter 5. In 2021, I published this series called the SSPX Debate. I went, published every side of that as that I could. Really. That seemed best reasonable to me. I've studied the SSPX sources, tried to understand them the best I can. I think the Archbishop Lefebvre is a hero of the faith in many, many different ways. And so he should not be canceled. He should, you know, he should be given the credit that is due to him for, you know, what he worked for, what he fought for. But after 1976, his choices caused his own sons in the priesthood to choose between his own fatherhood and the fatherhood of the Holy Father. That is the, that's the crux of the issue, is that we have to choose between who is ultimately the Father in the fatherhood of the ecclesiastical order. And so many of the sons of Archbishop Lefebvre broke from Archbishop Lefebvre and chose the Holy Father over him on this point, even though Lefebvre was right on all these other things and they should be fought for and we should fight for them. So, I mean, to me, the crux of the issue is kind of going back to what we said before when Pope Leo said they don't want to come with us to do things with us. You know, they don't. They want to be over by themselves. The crux of the issue to me is the official position of the SSPX that the new rite is a poison to the faith and should be avoided because that is a Catholic confraternity of priests telling the faithful that they should never go to the Mass that the Bishop of Rome is himself celebrating. And if you, you know, if you watch the Mass, the papal Mass, it is not a happy, clappy, Novus Ordo sort of thing. Maybe you don't like the fact that there's a female lector reading the first reading, perhaps. Okay, fine. But this is a. This is not a know. This is not a sacrilegious Mass. This is not a poison to the faith. It's not a poison to the faith to attend the Pope's own Mass. So I said this back in February when the consecrations were announced. I said, I don't know how Rome can accept Catholic priests who say they are Catholic, but tell the faithful that they cannot. Under no circumstances. I mean, and I should be fair, they do say that you can attend the new rite if it's for, like a funeral or, you know, out of charity, but that's the same exception. You can go to a Protestant service for a funeral. You can do that. So I just find this to be an untenable position. I think that the SSPX will never be accepted by Rome until they allow the Rome's own Mass celebrated in Rome for the faithful to participate of the Eucharistic Bread of the Pope himself. That to me, that's the line that, that is, is the fundamental line because there's no other unity and truth than the unity of the one bread, as St. Paul says. That's his words, not, not mine. I'm using the, the terms of the New Testament. So that is the, that is the crux of the matter to me that as far as I can tell. So that's why I just could not continue to support that long term. And this is not at all to judge like faithful who get their sacraments from SSPX priests. There's many, many different situations that might justify that. I don't know. I have no competency to say anything about anybody on that regard. And the Vatican itself does not judge automatically schismatic any faithful who attend an SSPX Mass. It's a case by case basis even to the Vatican today. But it's that position of the SSPX that I can't hold that because how can we win Pope Leo over to us if we say Pope Leo, we are Catholics, we're in communion with you, but we refuse to receive communion from you.
• 36:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that's the crux of it. I think you said this to me one time was like, how can you say you're in communion with the Pope if you won't receive communion from the Pope?
• 36:54
  Speaker B: Right.
• 36:54
  Speaker A: That's essentially what's happening. Because if it's because he's. If you receive communion from the Pope with that Novus Ordo Mass, that's all he celebrates, at least publicly. And so you're going to have to go to Novus Ordo Mass, receive communion that was consecrated and Novus Ordo Mass in order to receive communion from the Pope. And as much as both of us have strong communion objections to the way the Novus Ordo is celebrated. And I think both of us would say our desire, our fervent desire, heartfelt desire, is that the TLM would become the unique Roman Right. Again, the reality is what the reality is and we can't change that right now. And so it really is an interesting, like, you know, I've talked to, like I said, I've talked to SSPX people on this podcast. I had Jim Vogel on. Jim Vogel, SPOKESMAN for the SSPX and North America or America, I can't remember if it's North America or United States. He's great. He is such a good guy. Have tons of respect for him. That respect has not changed one iota since the episcopal consecrations have happened. And I remember having him on, I asked him about, you know, the validity of the, of the Novus Ordo. And of course, the answer is that they, they're not saying it's invalid. They, they don't say it's invalid. I suspect. And, and I'm saying this is cold speculation. Is anything Jim said or anything like that. I just suspect that there's probably a decent number of people who attend SSPX chapels who do think it's invalid. I think that's. And I think the sacraments of the, the Novus Order are all invalid. I think that's, I wouldn't be surprised. That's a common belief among SSPX attendees, if not the pre. Not saying the priest or any of that. But Jim did say, you know, in the podcast, it got a lot of pushback at the time and should have was like, basically, they, they don't recommend people go to a Novus Ordo parish. They do think it can be harmful for the faith. And I, I do feel like that is a little bit, it's just a little bit too black and white. And I know people are gonna say, oh, you're being like Michael Lofton with nuance and things like that. But what I mean by that, shout out to Michael Lofton wherever you. I haven't listened to him in a while, but anyway, hope he's doing well. But we've both been, you know, on Michael often show so, you know, we can talk about that. But, but my, my point is, if I get totally off track, is that, for example, I understand if you live in a small town and there's one parish and it's a nova sort of one, that's terrible. I do understand the argument of you don't want to sing your kids that you don't want to go there with your kids growing up there because it could be harmful for your faith, for their faith. I think that is accurate and very, could be very true. The fact that millions of people have left the church who grew up in it kind of plays that out because of the anemic spiritual life of Novus Ordo parishes, a lot of them. And I've talked about this over and over again. But the idea though, that like just kind of entering a Noah sort of Mass, not just for, like you're just traveling, for example, on vacation. Like, here's where I, here's where I would just say it's just wrong if you're traveling on vacation. And like, the only. Notice the only Catholic mass nearby is Novus Ordo. I've heard from SSF society people, including priests, that basically it's okay not to attend mass on Sunday rather than attend the Novus Ordo there for one week even. And I just think that's, that's, that's completely wrong. We're morally obligated to go to Mass. And so even if it's a happy clappy banjos or whatever, it's the only one around when you're on vacation, first of all, make better vacation plans. But second of all, yeah, like, we were, my wife and I were actually making some plans. We want to get the whole family together next summer. It's part of the equation is will we be gone on a Sunday or will we be on vacation when it's not a Sunday? If we are on a Sunday, okay, will there be a Mass nearby? But like, one time just two years ago, we did this and ended up the only parish nearby. Wasn't that great? Well, we all just went. We all. And we went home. And it's like, okay, I'd rather do that than just not literally break the, the, the, the, the command, the moral obligation to go to Mass on Sunday. And so I think that's a real. And it's kind of what. I know that's kind of what you're talking about. And that's where really a significant problem. And it's like, they're right. The SSPX is right in, in many of their critiques of the Nous Ordo. Absolutely they are. But there's a difference between that and just being like, okay, it's like poisonous to go to ever, basically. Or you, you, you, you look at like just a Protestant service. Yes, it's been Protestantized. I know that, but still has the Eucharist there. I'm not one of these guys say, well, it's valid. That's all that matters. No, but I am saying it is valid. And so you can't go there on a Sunday when you're on vacation or whatever. So I think that's a, I think that's, that's something to remember and something important.
• 41:58
  Speaker B: Yeah, let me add to that when I said that the most important tradition is the Mystical prayer tradition. To me, what's. What's really helped me, Eric, is like, for a while, I was. I was like. Like, you may know, my parish has. It's like a diocesan Latin Mass and a new rite together. So there's like a blending of the two. And for a while, I was going back and forth between them, and it was just kind of confusing and distracting. So I just started praying the rosary during the Mass, which is like a traditional custom. And I just started to try to. Try to just focus on the Eucharistic presence of Jesus, no matter what's happening. And I find that it's been really helpful to me, if I'm ever in a situation where there is something distracting going on, to meditate on the presence of the Lord. Because if you just think about this, like, you are in this crowded, you know, you're in an airport or whatever, and Jesus is standing right there. Well, nothing really matters now. Doesn't really. Nothing matters. Jesus is right here. And this is kind of the attitude, like, we're at Calvary. Jesus is crucified. They're mocking him. Maybe you're distracted by the Roman soldiers or the Pharisees who are mocking him, but you can enter into Christ crucified no matter what's happening. Now, as you said, I'm not at all dismissing the intense necessity of the external reverence to the Eucharistic Lord, but I'm trying to properly order it. If we properly order the fact that this is the divine person of the Son of God present in our midst, it can help cut through a lot of things that distract me when I get distracted about things. Another thing that was really helpful to me is the same for the Desert Fathers, where there was this story where St. Anthony. There was an angel that came to St. Anthony and said, I want to show you a man who's holier than you. And so the angel brought him to Alexandria or someplace and showed him this peddler. And the peddler was making shoes, and he just looked out at the people and said, all of these people will inherit the kingdom of Heaven, and I alone will not. Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. And so if I'm ever really distracted, I try to. I try to do that. If I remember to, like, if I'm distracted by what other people are doing at the Mass. I just think, well, these people were inherited the kingdom of Heaven because they're offering this Mass with a childlike heart, with humility. But I'm just so full of myself, and I need to really repent. So these are things that have helped me to try to enter into offering up not only the Eucharistic sacrifice, in whatever circumstance the rite is, but offering up charity for my brother as well as a necessary part of that. And that's why. That's the essential part, is why I think that this position cannot. Is untenable. Because we have to offer not only a beautiful Mass, we want to do that, give him everything possible in the externals, but we also have to offer him charity for our brothers. We're totally reconciled with them. We have nothing against our brother. We're not looking down on our brother like we're better than they are, or they're sinners and we're not, or whatever. We are reconciled with them. We're offering up all that we can in our charity with our brother as well. So those are some factors that have helped me. I don't know if they'd help you. I don't know. But those are my thoughts.
• 45:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, I want to bring up something related, another concern I had that kind of came to the fore. And I will admit that these issues, and I think it. I think you would say the same about the SSPX really came to the fore because of the Episcopal consecrations, because it made a lot of us dig into a little deeper and kind of recognize, okay, what are we choosing here? And there's a comment here. We just got in live chat, by the way, everybody participating in live chat, thank you, Court Bond two, and thank you. God bless you for joining. Anyone raising kids over time will get jilted without sspx. And I bring this up just simply because it reminds me of something, that a common accusation against the sspx, which I kind of dismissed for years, but I kind of wonder how true it is, is idea of the society being a parallel church, that basically one of the things you often hear is when some bishop does something terrible, he removes the Latin Mass or he makes everybody, he shuts down masses because of COVID or whatever the case may be. You hear society people say, we didn't have to worry about that. We didn't have to do that. You know. But the question is why you didn't have to do that. Because you're not under authority of anybody. You're not under the authority of Rome, you're not under the authority of the local ordinary. And so therefore you could do that. So are there advantages to that? Sure, there are advantages to that. Like when Covid happens, you guys keep saying Mass and most other places, most Catholic, almost every in America, at least Catholic parishes didn't. But what is the cost of that? What is the cost of those benefits? And to me, I feel like there is a weighing of that cost benefit analysis. And ultimately, I think the costs are too high because what happens is you get an insular attitude, you know, like thinking that you can't raise your kids Catholic without the sspx, when I know tons of people, myself included, I have adult kids now. I can say this, who they're. Now they're practicing Catholics. They have kids, practicing Catholics as adults, and they had never stepped foot in an SSPX chapel. It gets to be where you get this very insular attitude where everything outside the society somehow is not as clean as pure, whatever the case may be. Only inside is, is the true faith practice. And I know there's a lot of pushback, and I was one of them. When the American. Who. Priest, Society priest who was ordained. I'm forgetting his name right now. I apologize. He gave the, the homily at the vespers, at the, on the day of the consecrations. And he basically said everything in the modernist church is, is sterile and deadly. And also, you know, in the traditional church, it's all good. Now, I don't want to harp too much on that one comic because I think that'd be unfair to him, but I do think it reflected an attitude I've seen a lot where it's like, if you're not, you know, it's kind of like if you're an sspx, that's the boat that you need to be in to be saved. And I, I saw a lot of this on X, at least after and, and comments of after when, when I came out against the consecrations, like, you know, basically, it's like, you're not part of the team now. You're, you're, it's like, wait a second, guys. Do you or do you not want to be part of the universal church, the greater church with all its problems? Yes. Do you or do you not want to be. It's kind of like they've been saying for so long, we're in community with this. We're in communion. We're in community. We're in communion. Rome. But then when the rubber meets the road, it's like, well, now they're saying, thank God we don't have to be. We don't. We're not answerable to Rome. And I just feel like that was, that was unfortunate. I think it is, is the problem when, as much as I would commend the Society. For many years they've been. People have been telling from day one they're going to go off the reservation one day they'll be doing crazy stuff and they haven't. It doesn't mean there isn't some though attitude thereof. We're in the real boat and we'll be saved. And good luck to the rest of you guys who aren't in the sspx. But when the real boat, of course, is the Catholic Church, right?
• 49:36
  Speaker B: I mean, the SSPX has split with itself. Bishop Williamson disagreed with the other bishops and there's disagreements between the sspx. And so the argument doesn't really last. If you say, well, it's a good thing we're not under these bad bishops. But that's what every single Catholic, all of our forefathers, they all had to suffer under their bishop, whether he was good or bad. And this is the virtue of patience, to suffer evil as well. Take up your cross. And I'm sorry, this sounds trite, it sounds trite, but this is the Lord's own words. We have to suffer with our bishop. Stay with him.
• 50:18
  Speaker A: Take.
• 50:19
  Speaker B: Because what I said just about the Pope. What is even more so true in a sense is that your local bishop is your Eucharist. This is what I wrote in my. The retractions on the SSPX. But on the 1 Peter 5 text that I put where I said I was wrong about the sspx, it really is that insular attitude that I think creates what I call the SSPX narrative, which is a superficial analysis of the crisis. The SSPX narrative is what I term a superficial analysis. Like if you read the biography of Archevich, of Lefebvre, a lot of great stuff, a lot of great content, very important information, obviously, but its treatment of the Second Vatican Council is just not a deep analysis. If the SSPX took that and said, okay, we're going to remain in communion, we're going to take the one bread from our local bishop and we're going to work with the other sides of things, then we'd actually fill that out. We'd fill out that. We've got a portion of the analysis which is an important one that needs to be heard. We need this SSPX part. But if we can add these other parts, then we can actually have a full analysis of what's going on and a full approach to it. But because they want to go by themselves, then we can't actually as much get that goodness that they have and it creates this very superficial analysis. It doesn't add up. That narrative does not add up. It doesn't add up to just say, like, oh, Vatican II is this modernist council. It treated these things. That doesn't add up. And when we make that argument to Catholic priests and bishops and theologians who have so basic theological education, they see us make that argument and they're like, well, they're not serious. They haven't actually done their homework. They haven't actually read all the documents of Vatican ii. They haven't actually read all these different things and had the theological acumen to really dig deep into it. So this. But this happens with an insular attitude. If you separate yourself and you only talk to yourself, you're not going to have that actual true dialogue, like a Socratic dialogue, not a false dialogue, but a Socratic dialogue with these other sides and try to sharpen this. So, yeah, I agree with what you're saying, and those are some of the concerns I have.
• 52:49
  Speaker A: Yeah. And the suffering is part of the path to reconciliation, having to suffer. It's not that we're like, you know, you should have, like, an abusive wife who just takes a beating and does nothing. I'm not saying that.
• 53:02
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 53:02
  Speaker A: But I am saying in a real, true relationship, there's always some suffering involved. There's some hardships involved, things like that. If you want to really progress further now, I will. I do want to ask you, though, because what you were saying makes me think, do you then reject the whole idea of recognize and resist, which was such a big thing for a long time? You and I both associated with it, because you're kind of saying, if I'm hearing you right, maybe not like you have to kind of suffer under a bad bishop, maybe. Well, for years we were saying recognize and resist, meaning we recognize that Francis is really the Pope, but we resist the bad things he does. And also that means we resist the bad things and bishops do. Like, how do you do you just say, no, recognize and resist is a stupid term. I don't really want to do that anymore, or I never wanted to do that, or, no, it's still true, but here's how. So how would you then? How do you reconcile all that?
• 53:53
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, again, it's going to be different in different situations. But, like, basically, how do you deal with an abusive father? You have to resist the abusive father or else it will destroy you. It'll destroy your siblings, it'll destroy your mother. You have to resist him. You have to protect yourself and all these people. But Is the answer to try to get a different father. Does that actually solve the problem? No, it does not solve the problem because there is no other father but your own father. That's it. So you can't. You're just stuck with your father. He's always going to be your father. This is the key. It's like he's always going to be your father, even if he's a bad father. So you have to take some kind of measure to resist him, resist his influence, resist his abuse. As I said, it's going to be totally different for different things. But the Eucharistic altar is the locus of his fatherhood. Now, I mentioned in one of my articles, like, you know, these extreme cases, one of them was our mutual friend, father father Mr. Charles Colomb. He's not a priest. And how he. In the 1970s in Hollywood, he was experiencing this intense, you know, craziest 1970s Hollywood Catholicism. And a Catholic bishop told him that he should go to the Eucharist of the local Eucharist to always adhere to that fatherhood, but get some liturgical formation from the Anglican Catholic Catholics down the street who had more liturgical reverence than the Catholic Church. And that is an extreme situation, obviously. Like, that's not recommended. Like, I don't recommend that. But this was this particular situation. But this is kind of like the SSPX situation. Like, if the faithful are, you know, getting something from the SSPX that they cannot, or it's totally not present in the local parish, in some sense, perhaps there's a justification for that. And this is what the Vatican's own decrees say, that some people have gone to the SSPX just because of these liturgical things. But if they forsake the Eucharist of the local bishop and they will not take his Eucharist, then they are not in communion. They cannot say they are in communion unless they are willing to take. It doesn't mean you have to take communion literally every time, but it means that you're willing to take communion. You would if you needed to.
• 56:20
  Speaker A: Sound like you're open to life always.
• 56:23
  Speaker B: So I think that this is kind of this analogy of the abusive father. You can't erect a new father. Well, you can't create this ultimately totally different altar. You can take refuge in extreme situations, but you cannot ultimately harden your heart against the Eucharistic altar of the local bishop. And this is the tough part. This is a really, really tough part because there are so many extreme situations of terrible bishops now and in history. And these are we need to take consolation in the lives of the saints and how they suffered through these things and worked. They worked to always keep their heart with the bishop, even if he was bad. This is what St. Augustine said and Bishop Snyder in his text quotes this and in his opinion, he's totally against what we're saying. You know, he believes the SSPX and that's totally, you know, he is a bishop and he can say as he liked. One of the things I've been trying to emphasize is that it's become a clerical question. I'm just, everything I'm saying is just kind of like me as a father, what would I do for my own lay sphere and with my children, you know. But the idea is that we have to make a, a choice as to are we going to be willing to partake of that Eucharist with the local bishop. And that's, that's where I can't, I can't go over that line. So.
• 57:58
  Speaker A: And I think that the reality is we actually have a concrete example of taking this road that we're talking about in a real way that has, that has led to the salvation of many souls. And it's all been within the church. And of course I'm talking about the Fraternity of St. Peter.
• 58:17
  Speaker B: Yeah, right.
• 58:20
  Speaker A: I think most people know the history, but of course it was a number of priests who of the Society back in the 80s who didn't go follow along with Archer Lefebvre when he did the consecrations. I heard, by the way, two bishop, I think it was two priests of the Society decided to leave the Society after this year's consecrations. If you saw that out of like 800, whatever it is, only two did. But still two did. But the point is, is that a number of them did back then and they came to John Paul ii. John Paul II gave them, basically created an order for them, a not order. I'm sorry, you know, I always forget the exact term like that, whatever that is, you know, official, basically equivalent to what the Society was And it's fraternity St. Peter. And I know people like to knock on them, especially society types like, oh, they are. They, they were promised to bishop, they never got a bishop. Okay. But the reality is they have grown tremendously in those 40 years. They have saved countless souls. They work with their local bishop. Does that mean sometimes they're not allowed to go into certain diocese? Yes, absolutely. They're not allowed in certain diocese because certain bishops aren't very good and they, they prevent them. But the reality is, is that they continue to exist within the church and they have to suffer for that, for the fact that it's kind of like the uber trads don't like them. But also the, the Norman Catholics don't like them. So they just kind of feel. But they fill a real. So it's kind of like the whole idea is if they didn't do the consecrations, it's a sighting consecration, and the whole thing falls apart. It's like, wait a second, we got, we have proof of 40 years, almost of eternity of that they are under their bishop. They are truly. They are truly under. I mean, as I know it works a little bit more complicated than this, but when they go into a diocese, they have to abide by their local bishop's wishes. So, for example, that also meant when the local bishop shut down Masses because of COVID out of fear and panic, they had to shut down their public Masses as well. That's terrible. That's awful. But they're still there. They're still plugging away. That was a temporary situation. They're back. I mean, you know, everything happened and now they're still plugging away. They still in general have good relationship with their bishops and they still. To the average person who goes to a SSPX chapel versus a fraternity parish, there is no real difference as far as the preaching they hear, the, the sacraments they receive, the teaching, the catechism, they get the, the, the direction, they get in, in spiritual direction, whatever. All that is going to be essentially the same. So it's kind of hard to not be like it. There is a path, is what I'm trying to say, of not going too far astray one way, but also not like embracing falsehoods that do exist in today's church. And I think that's, that's a good example for all us. So if we're trying to think as a father, you and I are both fathers, kids. I mean, because that, a lot of it comes down to that, like, okay, my kids, what kind of Mass do I bring them to? What, how do I teach them faith, all that stuff. They're a good. And by the way, for anybody wants to know, I don't attend a fraternity parish. I, I, you know, I'm like you. I attend parish that has both the. Yeah.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker B: Oh, you, you have both. I thought it was like an oratory that you're at or something.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker A: Yeah, but we have both no sort of. And traditional Mass at our parish as well, diocesan parish and everything. I mean, there's fraternity parish about 45 minutes away, which I have friends that go to. And it's great. So the point though is almost like a model that you stay under your bishop, you stay under the Pope, and then you live out the traditional Catholic faith. And at times there will be situations in which that will be difficult, might even be impossible, certain aspects of it, but you just keep doing it. You just keep plugging away.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker B: Right. I think, I mean, some would say, well, but the local bishop can just suppress them, you know.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker B: Shouldn't we go SSPX but, but that is, that's the, that's the difficulty with having a bishop is that the bishop could do something bad. And, and we just have to work with that as best we can. But I think that that is one of the best points that you're just making just now is like, you know, this is a state of necessity is what the aspects have said. But the fssp and there's other traditions. There's, you know, Institute of Christ the King, there's the one in France, there's one in Campos. All of these traditional priests, they've all managed to work with the bishops defending the tradition. You know, we're all imperfect. Everybody has strengths and weaknesses, obviously, in different movements and stuff. And, but in my opinion, I think they are the future of the traditional movement. And also, like I want to mention, you know, latinmass.com where latinmass.com has latin mass University, where they've thought about the fact that there's no decree against ordinary diocesan priests learning how to do the Latin Mass privately. And so they just teach all these. There's tons of priests. There's a few bishops who've taken the course. So there's all these priests out there. And this is the younger crop of priests. Here's the other thing, like, is that there's not, there's not enough credit being given to that younger crop of priests that are. They were all conceived under John Paul ii. And I have never heard, I mean, I hear, I mean, I. With Avila. I have contacts with many, many different diocese. I just talked to director of the High Calling program and he, he works in like 30 different dioceses and he's like 100% of the young priests are zealous, orthodox and traditional. It's like oldies, younger priests. So that means that their, their new Mass is obviously, it's a new Mass, it's a new right Mass, but it is, you know, he's making it the best he can. He's practicing eucharistic reverence. That's not a Poison to the faith. You know, having contact with these zealous priests who celebrate the new right, that's not a poison to the faith. So I, I just can't go there.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker A: Yeah. And here's a comment. Just example Dev Pav 9880 says the FSSP, the fraternity exists to celebrate the TLM like some kind of art project, not to promote traditional Catholic doctrine. And that's just false. It's just a falsehood. And you really shouldn't say that. I actually, you know, I don't attend fraternity. Haven't for 10 years now. But the first five years I was, I was attending church line Mass was Annette Fraternity Parish. I turned for fraternity parish in 2011, 2016. And that's when I first learned really traditional Catholic doctrine. It was there. It was. Because it wasn't just the Mass, it was all the sacraments, of course. It was the preaching, it was the teaching, it was the formation. That's where I start. It took me, it took some time for it to really sink in. But I realized it's not just about the traditional Mass as he's indicating. It's much more than that. That's the kind of the foundation of it and that's where I learned it. And you'll. A fraternity parish, that's just the way it is. I mean they're going to teach a traditional Catholic faith. They're not going to get up there and attack the bishop and they're not going to, you know, they're not going to get up there and even criticize the bishop because they know they can't and they, because it could get them shut down. Is that the healthiest thing? Maybe not, but it's kind of the way it's always been. If you attack your bishop, I don't care what if you're fraternity, if you're just a regular Dyson, whatever, you're not gonna, you're not gonna get very far. You're gonna get shut down. So I wanna, I want to bring up one more topic and it's one I do not actually want to bring up, but because I, I refuse to get into personality debates. This is like a policy of crisis policy 1 through 5. My personal policy, probably yours too. I don't like personal personality conflicts. But I do want to mention because I'm sure people, some people mentioned the comments and that's Kennedy Hall. He was a regular writer, columnist for Crisis magazine for a number of years. I found on the podcast many times he's on, he was on the editorial board of 1 Peter 5. And I know, you know, he's. He is a devoted SSPX member and not member but, you know, he's attended SSPX Chapel for years. They basically saved his family, saved his soul. I mean, they. They did just beautiful, wonderful work and he's eternally grateful to them. And all I want to say about it is simply. And because I know he said some things against you online, we have the. I won't. I won't speak for you. I have the deepest respect for Candy. I think he's an awesome guy. He is doing what he thinks is best. I think I am. I mean, this is a legitimate for me to use line poke. Who am I to. Not the judge and I'm not and talk against the ex. Candy's only for all who attend. That's not like attack them or anything like which, you know, just. We think it proper path forward. So I just wanted to say that because I know some people were asking the comments and people might be thinking, I have nothing. I have not. I have nothing but high respect for Kennedy. And I think he's a great guy, you know?
• 1:07:55
  Speaker B: Yeah. Kennedy is my friend. He's a gentleman. He's a man of God. He's a zealous Christian. And his arguments about the SSPX should be heard, they should be read and analyzed because yes, he specs deserves its day in court. And they have a zealous defender at Kennedy. And I have total respect for him. And I talk with him. I'm still talking to him. And I said to him, you know, this is what I respect about you, is that truth is the most important thing. And, you know, obviously we're coming to different conclusions here, but I just want to give, I mean, Kennedy so much credit because he has so much great content, so much great writing, not only on the ssbx, but like tariff demons, you know, got a book on charismatic movement. He's a great writer. Fantastic. Yeah. Modernism. So Kennedy's an awesome guy. I love him. And I love you, Kennedy. I'm sure you're listening to this right now, so just have.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker A: He's a busy guy.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker B: Well, maybe not right now, but I'll send it to him after this. So, yeah, so that's. That's. Those are my thoughts.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker A: Yeah, I just, I wanted to get that because I. Like I said, I hate the personality disputes. I hate the. The. And I'm not saying Kenny's doing either. I'm not, I'm not. I'm not accusing that. I'm just simply Saying I wanted to make it just clear we're not going to have some childish spat where we treat people disrespectfully, uncharitably. He's not doing it. We're not.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker B: Yeah. And he's not doing it. Right, right. We're just.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker A: Right. So, yeah, we're just. People came to different conclusions about, you know, the way forward in a very confusing time. So.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker A: Anything else you wanted to address? Do you think we covered everything that you, that you were kind of thinking about with this?
• 1:09:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's, that's just about. Does it, I think. Yeah.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker A: Yeah. I think obviously our, our standard advice always applies. Pray fast. You know, just. Just try to grow in holiness and do it the best you can, the situation you're in. And it might mean you might make major changes in your life potentially, you know, if the Latin Mass is taken away from you, things like that. But ultimately God understands your efforts. I mean, listen to the story of Bishop Athanasius Schneider, where they didn't even have a priest available for years. For years.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker A: Right.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker B: Good one.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker A: Because he lived in the former Soviet Union. He grew up in the former Soviet Union in the 50s and 60s. And yet his mother, his mother, who did not have access to the sacraments for years, at times, maybe once a year at most or something like that, she was able to keep the faith, she was able to be a holy woman, she was able to pass on the faith to her kids. And so honestly, whereas I have complete sympathy for people when they lose the Latin Mass or when, you know, there's nothing available to them, I totally sympathize and I empathize with that. At the same time, it's not an excuse. It's not excuse. I mean, if Bishop Schneider's mom can do it and so can you in much harder circumstances. Catholics throughout history have had even harder circumstances than we have. And so we can, I think we can persevere. We can still grow in holiness no matter what the situation externally is.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker B: So, yeah, reading the lives of the 20th century martyrs and confessors, this has been a real consolation to me. It's a long term project that I'm working on, is trying to create more devotion to the, the modern confessors because our forefathers, I mean, this is what makes modernity so. This is. Dieter von Hillebrand said the modern world is so great because there's so many saints and martyrs in the modern world, but we don't even know about them. And it's sad. But if we look into these people like you just said, you know, we can have hope that we can endure these things. We can pass on the faith. And in the end, her immaculate heart will triumph.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker A: Amen. Amen to that. Well, thanks, Tim. I appreciate you coming on, brother.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker B: Thank you, man.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker A: Okay, until next time.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker B: Bye.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker A: God love you. And remember the poor.