Latest / Karl and Crew / Understanding Spiritual Gifts with Dr. Craig Keener & Salvation Is More Than a Decision with Dr. Erwin Lutzer

Transcript

Understanding Spiritual Gifts with Dr. Craig Keener & Salvation Is More Than a Decision with Dr. Erwin Lutzer · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl and crew.
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  S2: Come as you are an experienced God, overcome what seems
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  S2: impossible and live as you never imagined delivering.
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  S1: The truth daily.
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  S3: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available
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  S3: and you're forfeiting your soul, there's no amount of gain
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  S3: that would make it worth it.
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  S4: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S4: the life source, which is God.
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  S5: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S5: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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  S5: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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  S1: Now, from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and crew.
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  S2: The gifts of the Holy Spirit. The guide is now
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  S2: placed in your life. You are no longer a slave
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  S2: to sin. You are now a bond servant of Jesus Christ.
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  S2: And you were paying that constant bill because sin has
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  S2: a demand for us to put something that we are,
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  S2: something that we have into that account. The wages of
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  S2: sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.
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  S2: And 6640 just came in, said that their brand new
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  S2: follower of Jesus Christ. You know, when we come to
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  S2: the point where and maybe you are realizing today by
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  S2: the power of the Holy Spirit that this account that
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  S2: you've been paying into the account of sin, and we're
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  S2: all bound to pay into this with our time, our talent,
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  S2: our treasure, we're investing in something that leads to death.
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  S2: And that's graphic language from the apostle Paul, isn't it, Ali?
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  S3: This I'm thinking about it like that, that we're paying
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  S3: into something. We're investing in something that ultimately leads to death.
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  S3: I haven't heard it put quite like that.
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  S2: Yeah, I'm stealing from Charles Haddon Spurgeon, who gave a
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  S2: message many, many years ago in Metropolitan Tabernacle in London,
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  S2: and he did a whole message on the dangers of
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  S2: paying into sin while being religiously active and yet missing
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  S2: life in Jesus Christ because it's a free gift. And
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  S2: some of you have been paying in to that account
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  S2: of sin. And it's a bizarre thing because you think, why?
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  S2: Why would I do that? Well, we're born with our
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  S2: backs to God and we're born as slaves to sin.
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  S2: There's no other option that we have except to pay
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  S2: into that account. But through Jesus Christ and by the
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  S2: power of the Holy Spirit, we can repent. We can
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  S2: acknowledge we are a sinner. We are paying into those accounts,
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  S2: and God, by his grace, wipes those accounts clean. We've
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  S2: been set free from that payment that we're making into that.
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  S2: And here's what's amazing. It's a free gift of salvation.
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  S2: We earn nothing. We. We bring nothing to the table.
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  S2: And when you realize that you are spiritually bankrupt, which
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  S2: is what blessed are the poor in spirit means in
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  S2: Jesus's sermon on the Mount. When you recognize, man, I'm
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  S2: spiritually bankrupt. I have nothing to give God. That's an
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  S2: awe inspiring moment, because it's in that moment that you
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  S2: can take hold of life that is found in Jesus Christ.
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  S2: And friend, today. If today is the day of salvation
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  S2: for you, you've been paying into that. And I don't
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  S2: know what that thing is that you're paying into, but
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  S2: it's something that's missing the mark You're trying to find
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  S2: security satisfaction status in something other than God and you're
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  S2: paying it. You're paying for it. But the full wages
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  S2: of that is ultimately death. And it's chipping away at
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  S2: your life every single day. But the free gift of
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  S2: God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. And
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  S2: it could be that you're tuning in right now, and
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  S2: there is a spiritual awakening happening in your heart. You're recognizing, yeah,
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  S2: I've been, I've been paying this bill that's due every
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  S2: day to try to feed something in my life, that
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  S2: the return on the investment is flat out lousy, man.
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  S2: And let me just ask you, where are you finding
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  S2: your security? Where are you finding your satisfaction? And let
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  S2: me just ask you this. How's that working for you?
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  S2: How's that working for you? And the beauty of this
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  S2: moment is that the Holy Spirit can reveal to you
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  S2: that what you've been investing in, where your eyes have
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  S2: been going, where your mind has been tracking it ultimately
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  S2: is paying nothing back but empty promises. The wages of sin,
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  S2: meaning we're paying into that account is death. But the
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  S2: gift of God is eternal life, and that eternal life
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  S2: can begin today. You might have a question in your mind,
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  S2: and that is, well, how in the world do I
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  S2: take hold of life looking at the sin in your life?
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  S2: Looking at those accounts that you've been paying into. Yeah.
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  S2: To find satisfaction, to find significance, to find security. Looking
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  S2: at those accounts and realizing by the power of the
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  S2: Holy Spirit, they're paying me nothing back. And then recognizing
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  S2: you've got your back to the one who holds out
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  S2: a free gift of salvation to you today. Jesus died
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  S2: for your sins. He paid the price. The wage has
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  S2: been paid to free you from those things you've been
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  S2: trying to cash in on. And today is your day
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  S2: of salvation. So the first and most important thing is
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  S2: to stare into those things and to recognize I'm a sinner.
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  S2: I've been paying into these accounts in my life that
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  S2: are bringing no return on investment. And if that's you today, friend.
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  S2: Just say it. I'm a sinner. I can't get this
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  S2: straight in my life. There's no return on this investment.
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  S2: And that's a revelation that God gave you by the
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  S2: power of the Holy Spirit today. But count the cost
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  S2: before you just make a few words or shoot up a.
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  S2: Help me from this. Recognize you are the problem here
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  S2: and Jesus is the answer. So admit to God right now,
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  S2: in this moment. I'm a. I'm a sinner. I need
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  S2: a Savior, I sin, I miss the mark I'm paying
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  S2: into these accounts. There's been no return on investment. It's
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  S2: been short lived security, short lived satisfaction, short lived significance.
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  S2: So Jesus, I admit to you today I'm a sinner.
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  S2: Can you say that, friend? I'm a sinner. I've never
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  S2: come to grips with the fact that I am bankrupt spiritually.
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  S2: But today, for the first time in my life, I'm
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  S2: admitting it to you, God. It's beautiful. And then we're
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  S2: called to repent. To turn around. Empty hands, no agenda.
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  S2: No more trying to invest in a life that paid
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  S2: me nothing. Surrendering all we are to Jesus Christ. Turning
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  S2: off that broad path that leads to destruction and surrendering
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  S2: all you are to Jesus. And now following Jesus saying,
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  S2: I'm going your way. It's no longer my agenda, my plan,
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  S2: and I'm no longer paying for anything because thank you Jesus.
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  S2: You died for me. It's a beautiful thing, guys. And
• 8:43
  S2: if that's you today, just want to talk about this
• 8:47
  S2: link that we're going to send your way. We want
• 8:49
  S2: to connect you with someone in your area who will
• 8:52
  S2: reach out to you and say, how can I help?
• 8:56
  S2: You know, one of the great proofs of real, genuine
• 9:00
  S2: repentance and recognition of sin in your life is that
• 9:03
  S2: you're like, hey, I'm ready for some help here. Everyone
• 9:07
  S2: that is fit for the kingdom of God has no
• 9:10
  S2: more answers and is ready for some. We want to
• 9:13
  S2: help you with that. We want to get a new
• 9:14
  S2: Bible in your hand. You might have a Bible. It
• 9:17
  S2: could be dusty. It could be littered with a lot
• 9:21
  S2: of obligation, could bring back to your mind a lot
• 9:25
  S2: of futility. Let's get a new Bible in your hand
• 9:28
  S2: to help you in this fresh new day, this new
• 9:32
  S2: life found in Jesus Christ. And so this link to
• 9:37
  S2: powerful tool, isn't it?
• 9:38
  S3: Absolutely. Take it, utilize it, read through it, fill out
• 9:41
  S3: that form. Just text new to 800 555 78. 98.
• 9:47
  S3: Today you are new in Christ. Text new to 805 557898.
• 9:54
  S2: Yeah. The wages of sin is death. But the gift
• 9:59
  S2: of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Wow.
• 10:08
  S2: Talk about a reordering of your life and today, friend,
• 10:11
  S2: if today is your day of salvation, just text the
• 10:14
  S2: word new to 805 5578981 word new to 805 557898.
• 10:27
  S2: Let's just shout out some numbers here as they're coming in. Ali.
• 10:30
  S3: Yeah. Welcome to the family. 6650, 66, 40, 80, 92, 33, 82.
• 10:36
  S3: Welcome to the family. 24, 29, 65, 63.
• 10:41
  S2: Yeah. And I think 5258 as well. So welcome to
• 10:46
  S2: the family. Today is a day of salvation. We've been
• 10:49
  S2: talking spiritual gifts all week long, but the the first
• 10:53
  S2: and most essential gift is the gift of salvation through
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  S2: Jesus Christ our Lord.
• 10:59
  S3: Yes, everything flows from that. Everything else.
• 11:02
  S2: Everything. So welcome to the family. Those of you surrendering
• 11:07
  S2: to Jesus all around you, United States, Canada, and the world.
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  S2: We praise God for your life. We. We thank you
• 11:16
  S2: for you. We thank God for you. It's an amazing thing.
• 11:21
  S2: So if this is you, today is the day of salvation.
• 11:24
  S2: Just when you get to a phone, uh, grab it,
• 11:28
  S2: text the word new to us and we're going to
• 11:30
  S2: help you and your first steps with Jesus. Text new
• 11:32
  S2: to 805 557898 9088. Just came in. Welcome to the family.
• 11:40
  S2: What a joy. Talking spiritual gifts all week long here.
• 11:45
  S2: It's been a joy, hasn't it?
• 11:47
  S3: Did you receive the gift of salvation? You also get
• 11:50
  S3: spiritual gift.
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  S2: Yeah.
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  S1: This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
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  S2: I want to just take a moment here and acknowledge
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  S2: those of you surrendering all you are to Jesus, confessing
• 12:03
  S2: that you are a sinner who needs a Savior, and
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  S2: agreeing with God that you are turning around and following
• 12:09
  S2: Jesus with all that you are taking your dreams and
• 12:12
  S2: your aspirations, laying them down on that broad path that
• 12:16
  S2: leads to destruction, and getting onto that narrow path that
• 12:19
  S2: leads to life eternal and life today. Last four numbers
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  S2: just responding here in the last several minutes 22, 16, 95, 59, 85, 87, 29, 26.
• 12:33
  S2: Welcome to the family. 63, 64, 45, 71, 67, 30, 40, 800.
• 12:42
  S2: Welcome to the family. 09914295, 82, 6250 5550 1815. Welcome
• 12:54
  S2: to the family, to each and every one of you.
• 12:56
  S2: So grateful for the work of God in your life today.
• 12:59
  S2: And it's his work. All we are is conduits. Just
• 13:02
  S2: carrying this message to you today. Thankful to Pastor Lutzer
• 13:06
  S2: here being so clear with the good news of Jesus Christ.
• 13:09
  S3: Yeah, I'm always grateful for his his leadership in that area.
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  S3: I mean, the clear gospel is what's needed every single day.
• 13:17
  S3: We never get tired of sharing the gospel here on
• 13:20
  S3: Moody Radio.
• 13:20
  S2: No, never. Do you know when you think legacy, what
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  S2: do you think when I say that word? Legacy?
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  S3: Ah, I mean, obviously what you what you leave behind.
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  S2: Yeah. What you leave behind.
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  S4: What people remember about you.
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  S2: Yeah, yeah. When do we normally start thinking about legacy?
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  S3: I think it tends to be a conversation people have
• 13:47
  S3: as they get older.
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  S2: Fair? Yeah. There's a lot of discussion about legacy with those,
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  S2: I believe probably, um, 60 and above. Right.
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  S3: Okay.
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  S4: Totally.
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  S2: That is a problem.
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  S3: When do we need to start thinking about legacy?
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  S2: The day we're born again.
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  S4: Yeah.
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  S2: The day we're born again. And the reason is, is
• 14:14
  S2: the grace of God. His unmerited favor and unparalleled power
• 14:20
  S2: has been deposited into your life. And a lot of
• 14:22
  S2: you that are maybe 20 don't think about legacy. But
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  S2: do you know that because you are in Christ Jesus
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  S2: our Lord, you have the privilege of leaving a legacy,
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  S2: a powerful one today. Yeah. How do I know this?
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  S2: Because God has given you a spiritual gift. Or more.
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  S2: A couple of them. Three of them, maybe more. And
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  S2: those gifts are used for the building up of the body.
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  S2: And building up in the body is not. This is
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  S2: not nothing. It's something significant. Your spiritual gift can shape
• 15:01
  S2: the future of a dad or a mom or a
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  S2: child in that ripple effect is enormous. Guys. Agreed?
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  S3: Absolutely.
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  S4: 100%. I mean, you look at like, look at all
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  S4: the things that we hold so dear in this life. Like,
• 15:18
  S4: like sports. Sports comes up often because so many people
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  S4: look to it and are so, you know, impressed and
• 15:24
  S4: they idolize it. And, you know, the greatest athlete of
• 15:27
  S4: all time, you know, whoever that may be in your mind.
• 15:30
  S4: Let's take Michael Jordan, for instance, all the accolades that
• 15:33
  S4: he has in the NBA. Uh, one day when he
• 15:36
  S4: goes away, there will still be statues and plaques of
• 15:40
  S4: the different things he achieved in sports. But that doesn't
• 15:46
  S4: change anybody's life. No one's life was. Oh, man. And
• 15:51
  S4: I just remember how Michael went and shot, you know,
• 15:54
  S4: 45 points in that playoff game. And it just changed
• 15:56
  S4: my life forever. And, you know, the things that we
• 16:00
  S4: focus on need to be the time that we spent
• 16:03
  S4: with people and the and for us, it's the gospel
• 16:06
  S4: that we give forward to people to help them grow
• 16:08
  S4: closer with Jesus. These are the important things.
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  S2: Yeah. And just to be, I think it'll undergird your point. Sure.
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  S2: But Michael Jordan left a legacy that up to a
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  S2: lot of people's ballgames, that's for sure.
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  S4: 100%.
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  S2: I think about the, um, what's the, what's a eurostep
• 16:29
  S2: right alley? Is that the term that guys brought from
• 16:33
  S2: there in Europe? There's something called the Eurostep, right. Well,
• 16:37
  S2: the guys that came from Europe and have. It's it's
• 16:40
  S2: some way of stepping that actually, in the last moment,
• 16:43
  S2: you kind of shed a defender and you've got an
• 16:46
  S2: open look at the bucket. Is that a good way
• 16:48
  S2: of saying it? Yeah. Alli is the kind of.
• 16:49
  S3: Change you change directions on that second step. And so
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  S3: it usually causes the defender to go one way. And
• 16:56
  S3: you've created a little bit of a path for yourself
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  S3: where they're not.
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  S2: So there's a legacy of the eurostep because now it's
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  S2: not just in Europe. I mean, it's being used all
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  S2: over the world.
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  S3: It's great basketball games. Fifth graders are trying it.
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  S2: Yeah. And for sure they are. So there's a lasting
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  S2: impact that you can have in so many ways, but
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  S2: nothing like the impact that we leave when we leverage
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  S2: our spiritual gifts. And I want you to think legacy today, legacy.
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  S2: You have been gifted by God.
• 17:32
  S1: I want to hear that again. Just download the Curl
• 17:35
  S1: and Crew Podcast wherever you like to stream.
• 17:37
  S2: The beauty of this day is that you have an
• 17:40
  S2: opportunity to leave a legacy. I don't know that 20
• 17:43
  S2: year olds are thinking legacy.
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  S4: Not often. Maybe if they have kids, you know, that's
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  S4: kind of what I what sparked my first starting to
• 17:52
  S4: think of that is when my wife and I had
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  S4: our first daughter. Yeah. It was, oh, man, what am
• 17:58
  S4: I gonna leave behind for her? How is she gonna
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  S4: live her life? Based off on how I lived mine
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  S4: around her? Yeah.
• 18:05
  S2: The beauty is, man, you can join. You ready for this?
• 18:07
  S2: 23000 plus people that have already tapped into something that
• 18:11
  S2: I promise you, if you utilize this tool, your ability
• 18:16
  S2: to leave a legacy is so huge. It's the apostle
• 18:20
  S2: Paul who said, now concerning spiritual gifts, my brothers and sisters,
• 18:24
  S2: I don't want you to be uninformed. And boy, that
• 18:26
  S2: uninformed piece thing breaks down a lot of teaching, but
• 18:29
  S2: it basic level number one, you want some information when
• 18:34
  S2: you're born again. God gave you spiritual gifts to build
• 18:37
  S2: up the body and to make us all strong, and
• 18:39
  S2: we need you.
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  S3: And that is leaving a legacy. When we are operating
• 18:44
  S3: in our spiritual gifts, the power of the Holy Spirit
• 18:46
  S3: at work in us and through us to build up
• 18:48
  S3: the body. Leaving a legacy is not the amount of
• 18:51
  S3: money you leave to your kids. It's just not. I mean,
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  S3: it's wonderful if you can leave an inheritance to people
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  S3: who come after you, but that is not truly your legacy.
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  S2: Yeah, the spiritual family and the impact that you have
• 19:06
  S2: on them and their ability then to I mean, just
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  S2: think of the trickle down effect of you using your
• 19:12
  S2: spiritual gift of mercy, administration, teaching, leading helps, uh, encouragement.
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  S2: I mean, the list goes on and on. And we
• 19:20
  S2: need each other. 23,000 people can't be wrong here. There's
• 19:27
  S2: got to be some good motives in this lot.
• 19:29
  S3: Is that how many have taken this assessment?
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  S2: 23,000. And change.
• 19:34
  S3: Wow.
• 19:35
  S6: Wow. Cool.
• 19:36
  S3: If you've not taken it, text drew will send it
• 19:39
  S3: to you. DREW 805 557898. Text drew to 805 557898.
• 19:50
  S1: Celebrating the unstoppable gospel.
• 19:53
  S4: You gotta get connected to the vine because Jesus is
• 19:57
  S4: your power source. Nothing good can come apart from him.
• 20:01
  S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
• 20:03
  S2: Yeah. Just got a question that came in here, and
• 20:05
  S2: I love this. It's like red meat to a junkyard
• 20:08
  S2: dog here. For those of us who took the assessment,
• 20:11
  S2: how do we approach our pastor with this information? Mine
• 20:14
  S2: is strongly administration. I any pastor with a pulse is
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  S2: going to be giddy to have you tell him I
• 20:26
  S2: have a gift of administration. Is there a way I
• 20:29
  S2: can use this in this church? Most will say, oh,
• 20:34
  S2: come with me.
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  S4: Yep, 100%, 100%. And it's not about like, you know,
• 20:41
  S4: in order for you to be really using it, you
• 20:43
  S4: got to have some paid position and be on the
• 20:45
  S4: staff or anything like that. But it's just getting your
• 20:48
  S4: hands in it because you know what? I know, I
• 20:51
  S4: know pastors and I know that there are a lot
• 20:54
  S4: of burdens sometimes on a lot of pastors and churches
• 20:57
  S4: where they feel like they're doing it all because there's
• 21:01
  S4: just not a lot of a lot of assistance on
• 21:03
  S4: the side from, from the body of Christ coming around
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  S4: to say, where can I help? And so coming to
• 21:08
  S4: him saying, I've got this gift and I'd like to,
• 21:11
  S4: I'd like to join you in helping. They're gonna love that.
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  S6: Yeah.
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  S2: So good.
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  S3: Can I, since we're throwing out questions, can I throw
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  S3: a couple your way?
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  S2: Yeah. Let's go.
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  S3: Okay. So when you now discover you have these gifts,
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  S3: or maybe you're seeing it for the first time, or
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  S3: it's confirmed. Let's take one. Like a discernment gift or
• 21:29
  S3: a teaching gift. What is the right and wrong way
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  S3: to approach utilizing some of those gifts that involve other people?
• 21:38
  S2: Yeah. I'm so glad you mentioned discernment. The goal is
• 21:41
  S2: to edify the body. So the goal is to build
• 21:44
  S2: people up. We. Cautionary tale that I covered with Sam
• 21:48
  S2: Storms earlier this week. Some. Sometimes people can begin to
• 21:52
  S2: look at spiritual gifts and they almost. It becomes such
• 21:56
  S2: a focus on self rather than. We're a conduit of
• 21:59
  S2: God's gift. In other words, it's a pass through. It's
• 22:02
  S2: really not ours. It's for the sake of others. We
• 22:06
  S2: can get too fascinated with the gift that we have,
• 22:09
  S2: but it's really the spiritual gift that God has entrusted
• 22:12
  S2: us with. So if it's used for the building up
• 22:17
  S2: of the body, that is great. Take the gift of
• 22:21
  S2: discernment that you just mentioned. The danger with that is
• 22:26
  S2: God will supernaturally give you discernment in certain situations. But
• 22:31
  S2: if that becomes a tool to bludgeon people or to
• 22:35
  S2: discourage them, that's not being used rightly. So. I'd say
• 22:39
  S2: first and foremost, use it to build up the body
• 22:42
  S2: of Christ. I think that's very, very important. Remembering this,
• 22:46
  S2: the goal of this gift is to edify, edify, edify.
• 22:51
  S2: In fact, I remember us coming out of a class
• 22:54
  S2: one time in Bible college and Bible college students are crazy.
• 22:57
  S2: And we had this guy, he was nicknamed smoothie because
• 23:02
  S2: he made killer smoothies and smoothie came in from class.
• 23:07
  S2: He goes, man, this whole thing of edification. It's important,
• 23:11
  S2: isn't it? And I said, yeah, man, it really is.
• 23:14
  S2: And another one of our roommates stepped in and he
• 23:20
  S2: was talking about gifts and, and he said, it just
• 23:23
  S2: boils down to this Joe Edify stupid. And I thought,
• 23:28
  S2: that is hilarious. So we walked around for the next
• 23:30
  S2: two months whenever we saw each other, it was edify, stupid.
• 23:34
  S2: And therein lies the cautionary tale is be careful with
• 23:38
  S2: these gifts. These gifts are to build up and to
• 23:41
  S2: make strong. So that's one that's one response I would have.
• 23:46
  S3: Yeah. And I think the and I know you would agree, Carl,
• 23:49
  S3: humility being the underpinning of every single.
• 23:53
  S2: Thing.
• 23:53
  S3: Every single one of these, whether it's teaching or I mean,
• 23:57
  S3: some you think of some of them as more humble
• 23:59
  S3: on its face. Mercy seems humble, hospitality seems humble. But
• 24:03
  S3: in any one of these areas, we can become prideful
• 24:06
  S3: and feel like, oh, I have the gift of faith.
• 24:09
  S3: I don't know why everybody else can't just get on
• 24:11
  S3: board and believe God for big things. Like I can,
• 24:13
  S3: you know, like it.
• 24:14
  S2: Just, you know what, Ali, you're spot on, sister. That
• 24:18
  S2: is a great caution.
• 24:20
  S1: Chicago across North America and beyond. It's Carl and crew.
• 24:25
  S2: Come as you are an experienced God, overcome what seems
• 24:30
  S2: impossible and live as you never imagined.
• 24:34
  S1: Delivering the truth daily.
• 24:36
  S3: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available
• 24:41
  S3: and you're forfeiting your soul, there's no amount of gain
• 24:44
  S3: that would make it worth it.
• 24:46
  S4: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
• 24:49
  S4: the life source, which is God.
• 24:52
  S5: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
• 24:56
  S5: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
• 25:00
  S5: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
• 25:04
  S1: Now, from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
• 25:09
  S1: and crew.
• 25:10
  S2: Yeah, you can wig you out. You take the spiritual
• 25:13
  S2: gifts assessment and you can zero out in a couple
• 25:17
  S2: categories and you're like, oh boy, I want you to
• 25:21
  S2: be careful with that on a couple of fronts. One
• 25:23
  S2: is don't look at it from a perspective of spiritual
• 25:28
  S2: fruit assessment, that's that could really throw you off. You're like,
• 25:33
  S2: oh my goodness, I'm, I have no, I have zero
• 25:38
  S2: administration in me. No wonder my bills aren't getting paid.
• 25:42
  S2: I mean, it can get into that or, you know,
• 25:45
  S2: and think, wow, I don't have any administration. I can't
• 25:48
  S2: line up any ducks. I mean, there's there's a certain
• 25:51
  S2: amount of this we got to be careful.
• 25:53
  S3: About when you see zero mercy or zero hospitality. Well,
• 25:57
  S3: and that.
• 25:58
  S6: Hits that feels a little.
• 26:00
  S2: Yeah. And that leads to this on our midday host
• 26:05
  S2: actually texted me and I said, call in here, Shauna,
• 26:08
  S2: you're with us. Sister. Tell us about your experience on
• 26:11
  S2: a gifts assessment.
• 26:13
  S7: Well, actually, Allie just cooked me really good because it
• 26:17
  S7: was back in the 90s that spiritual gifts tests were
• 26:20
  S7: all the rage. And I took a spiritual gifts test
• 26:23
  S7: and I did score a zero in mercy. Oh, sorry.
• 26:33
  S2: Oh, no. But it's okay. So what would you learn
• 26:36
  S2: through that process?
• 26:39
  S7: Well, I think that I think I kind of gave
• 26:42
  S7: myself a pass, like, shoot, you need mercy. You're going
• 26:45
  S7: to have to go to somebody else. But I just
• 26:47
  S7: don't have that. And then it was, I don't know.
• 26:50
  S7: It was like, yeah, it was like five years later
• 26:52
  S7: that I took another test and I scored zero on
• 26:56
  S7: mercy again. And it actually was super convicting because I
• 26:59
  S7: was like, scoring is zero does not mean I have
• 27:03
  S7: license to not become like Jesus in this area of
• 27:06
  S7: my life. And it kind of got me fired up
• 27:08
  S7: to actually lean into that even more. Like, I want
• 27:12
  S7: to be more like you in this area. Jesus. Not
• 27:14
  S7: just like dismiss it and not pursue it.
• 27:18
  S2: Yeah. And I, and I'm thinking of the words of Jesus, Shauna,
• 27:21
  S2: because Jesus looked at the religious folk of his day
• 27:25
  S2: and he said, I desire mercy, not sacrifice. And so
• 27:31
  S2: having a gift of mercy does not mean or not
• 27:36
  S2: having a gift of mercy does not mean you walk
• 27:38
  S2: around going hope. You hope you find help from someone
• 27:41
  S2: else in the body of Christ. But that's a that's
• 27:45
  S2: a vulnerable insight. And that's really cool. Um, because I,
• 27:50
  S2: you know, something else I was cogitating on with my
• 27:53
  S2: bride about this assessment that we've been giving out this
• 27:55
  S2: whole week since Tuesday morning is that I believe with
• 28:00
  S2: spiritual maturity, um, there comes a little bit of health
• 28:05
  S2: in all of these things, but don't, don't beat yourself up.
• 28:11
  S2: Boom crew if you come in zero on something, right?
• 28:16
  S2: I mean, that's the goal here. Don't beat yourself up.
• 28:19
  S2: And also don't give that permission to let's say you
• 28:23
  S2: zero out in leadership. Well, there could come a time
• 28:27
  S2: when God in his providence puts you in a position
• 28:30
  S2: where you got to lead, or else it ain't going
• 28:32
  S2: to get done. And you know it. And, and God
• 28:35
  S2: can bolster you in that moment. Thoughts on this one, guys?
• 28:38
  S2: Let's mosh pit it a little bit here.
• 28:40
  S3: I totally agree because, you know, because it's a gift
• 28:43
  S3: of the spirit and it's the work of the Holy Spirit. Well,
• 28:45
  S3: the Holy Spirit is, is living and moving and doing
• 28:48
  S3: things all the time. And so there are going to
• 28:51
  S3: be many times when we are going to be called
• 28:54
  S3: upon in a moment to operate in a gift of
• 28:57
  S3: or operate in the spirit, even if it's not our
• 28:59
  S3: primary gifting. So take hospitality, mercy serving. There are some
• 29:05
  S3: people who are going to probably be out front leading
• 29:07
  S3: the way in that they're going to be serving way
• 29:10
  S3: more often. They're going to be signing up to be
• 29:13
  S3: an usher. That's just where they feel like God has
• 29:15
  S3: called them. But then there's going to be times where, hey,
• 29:18
  S3: we need a couple people to usher because we're we're
• 29:21
  S3: we're shorthanded a little bit. And so I don't need
• 29:24
  S3: to have the gift of serving to step in and
• 29:27
  S3: fill a need where I see it. Right.
• 29:29
  S2: Amen. Amen, sister. That is spot on. So well put.
• 29:34
  S2: Final thought. Shawna, what do you what do you say, sister?
• 29:37
  S2: You've been hearing this all week. We got 23,000 plus
• 29:40
  S2: people that have used this assessment already.
• 29:44
  S8: I love it.
• 29:45
  S7: Here's the thing. You are gifted. You have a gift.
• 29:48
  S7: The Holy Spirit is going to work in and through
• 29:50
  S7: your life. And so to identify what it is, is
• 29:53
  S7: not only good for you, it's good for your relationship
• 29:55
  S7: with the Lord, but it's good for everybody around you.
• 29:58
  S7: And I think as far as you know, what Allie
• 30:00
  S7: was saying about, um, just, you know, where we're weak
• 30:03
  S7: and where we're strong, I think the more we become like, Jesus,
• 30:06
  S7: I don't know, the scores might mediate a little bit more.
• 30:11
  S2: Yeah.
• 30:11
  S7: You know, instead of having like, I'm high in this
• 30:13
  S7: and I'm low in this, I think the more we
• 30:14
  S7: become like Jesus, we're going to be Um, more leveled
• 30:18
  S7: out across the board, but it's. We need you. The
• 30:23
  S7: church needs you. The body of Christ needs you. And
• 30:26
  S7: I think the people who are really good at the
• 30:28
  S7: things that we're not. I think those are the people
• 30:30
  S7: we need to be watching. Like if I score zero
• 30:33
  S7: in mercy, I want to watch people who just do
• 30:36
  S7: it flawlessly.
• 30:37
  S6: Yes.
• 30:38
  S7: And learn from them.
• 30:40
  S2: Yeah. It's it's so true. And, and here's, there's so
• 30:46
  S2: many thoughts I have on this topic, but not least
• 30:49
  S2: of which is there's, there's a too large a percentage
• 30:53
  S2: of people in the body of Christ that have left
• 30:57
  S2: the spiritual gifts that God has given you underutilized in.
• 31:01
  S2: And we straight up need everyone at the table.
• 31:04
  S3: It's so true. And, you know, Shawna just said like,
• 31:07
  S3: there's when you're watching somebody operate in their spiritual gifting,
• 31:11
  S3: there's an ease and a grace to it and you
• 31:12
  S3: just stand back and you, you can be tempted to
• 31:15
  S3: feel like jealous, like, oh, man, there's no way I
• 31:18
  S3: could ever give a message like that. Like, I don't
• 31:21
  S3: have the gift of teaching, but it's like, no, let's
• 31:23
  S3: this is a gift of the spirit. So let's praise
• 31:25
  S3: God for what he's doing through this person. And then
• 31:28
  S3: let's lean into where he's gifted me because there's an
• 31:31
  S3: area where I'm going to flow in grace and somebody
• 31:34
  S3: else is going to be like, man, she's in her
• 31:35
  S3: gifting and it's going to be different from the next person.
• 31:38
  S2: Okay, so I have one final thought.
• 31:40
  S6: Okay, final, final, final thought.
• 31:44
  S2: If you see somebody using a spiritual gift, would you
• 31:47
  S2: please affirm them?
• 31:49
  S6: Oh yeah.
• 31:50
  S2: Would you please affirm them? And don't think a leader
• 31:54
  S2: doesn't need to be affirmed. Speaking is 100% leader. Leaders
• 31:59
  S2: need encouragement to.
• 32:03
  S7: 100% okay, on that note, I got to take this
• 32:06
  S7: opportunity to say thank you so much for having the
• 32:09
  S7: conversations and leading us into deeper relationship with the Lord
• 32:12
  S7: and figuring out what our gifts are and being able
• 32:14
  S7: to step in and serve every single day on Carl
• 32:17
  S7: and crew. I feel like there's an opportunity to lean in,
• 32:20
  S7: to literally take the next step and become more like Jesus.
• 32:23
  S7: So thank you guys for what you're doing.
• 32:25
  S3: Oh thank you.
• 32:25
  S6: Shawna.
• 32:26
  S3: So glad you're with us. Rest up, heal up.
• 32:30
  S7: Yeah. Thank you.
• 32:32
  S2: Yeah. We love Shawna. She's a great midday host. And
• 32:35
  S2: here she is listening and calls in. And she's contributing
• 32:41
  S2: all throughout the clock. How about.
• 32:42
  S6: That.
• 32:43
  S3: Oh yeah. That's awesome.
• 32:44
  S2: Pretty cool. So some of your listening going hold it
• 32:47
  S2: a second. You're talking about this thing. I just tuned in.
• 32:51
  S2: We don't want you missing out if you haven't grabbed this.
• 32:53
  S2: Today is the day. Now is the time. What do
• 32:56
  S2: you say.
• 32:56
  S6: The.
• 32:56
  S3: Spiritual gifts assessment, just text drew to 800 555, 78, 98.
• 33:03
  S3: Our thanks to Drew Dickens, who put this together with
• 33:06
  S3: some significant help from AI. He put the prompt in AI,
• 33:09
  S3: put out a great, great product text drew to 800 555, 78. 98.
• 33:15
  S1: Walking closer to Jesus every day. You're listening to Carl
• 33:19
  S1: and crew.
• 33:20
  S2: Well, if we're talking spiritual gifts. I think it's important
• 33:23
  S2: to get a man in here who is a great theologian,
• 33:27
  S2: a great student of the original languages, and a man
• 33:32
  S2: who was without rival. I would say when it comes
• 33:35
  S2: to plumbing the depths of the topic of spiritual gifts
• 33:39
  S2: and many others. Doctor Craig Keener is with us right now.
• 33:42
  S2: Will give you a proper full bio here. Let's tackle
• 33:45
  S2: it right now. Ali, I don't know how much of
• 33:47
  S2: this you want to cover. This guy's got quite the
• 33:50
  S2: biographical sketch.
• 33:51
  S6: Yes.
• 33:52
  S3: Professor of biblical studies at Asbury Theological Seminary, author of
• 33:56
  S3: 40 books with 1.4 million copies in circulation today. His
• 34:02
  S3: books have won 13 national and international awards, including six
• 34:06
  S3: from Christianity Today.
• 34:07
  S2: Yeah. So let's just start at the beginning. Why spiritual gifts?
• 34:11
  S2: Why are they so important, Doctor Craig Keener?
• 34:15
  S9: Every time Paul brings up spiritual gifts, it's in the
• 34:19
  S9: context of the body of Christ. So it's part of
• 34:22
  S9: how we minister to one another. It's part of how
• 34:25
  S9: we fulfill what we're supposed to be together as the
• 34:28
  S9: body of Christ, to serve one another.
• 34:31
  S3: So everybody has a spiritual gift, correct? Is that a
• 34:34
  S3: correct way of understanding at least one?
• 34:36
  S9: Yes. Yeah.
• 34:38
  S2: How do we know? Uh, Craig, uh, if we have
• 34:42
  S2: more than one. And does God use spiritual gifts differently
• 34:46
  S2: in different seasons of our life, where one will maybe
• 34:51
  S2: surface itself because we're in a unique body of Christ situation?
• 34:56
  S2: Maybe it's a church launch, maybe there's a time of reconciliation.
• 35:01
  S2: What's your experience anecdotally and biblically?
• 35:06
  S9: Biblically, we can see, for example, Philip the Evangelist in
• 35:10
  S9: acts chapter eight. He's itinerant. God is using him in evangelism,
• 35:15
  S9: church planting, so to speak. But by the time you
• 35:18
  S9: get to acts chapter 21, he's been in Caesarea for years.
• 35:22
  S9: He's got four virgin daughters who prophesy, and the nature
• 35:26
  S9: of his ministry seems to have changed. He's still a minister,
• 35:30
  S9: but I think that does show that sometimes there are
• 35:32
  S9: different seasons in in our ministries. It's interesting, as members
• 35:37
  S9: of the body of Christ, we definitely do have spiritual gifts,
• 35:40
  S9: but also in first Corinthians 13, the love chapter. It's
• 35:44
  S9: surrounded by two verses 1231 and 141. Both talk about
• 35:49
  S9: seeking spiritual gifts. I believe it's talking about seeking spiritual
• 35:53
  S9: gifts for edifying the body of Christ. And then 141
• 35:57
  S9: mentions a particular spiritual gift that would be useful for
• 36:00
  S9: building up the church in Corinth. Teaching us is valuable
• 36:04
  S9: for everybody. But in Corinth, you know, that church was
• 36:06
  S9: only a couple of years old in the Lord. And
• 36:08
  S9: so he urges them to seek the gift of prophecy
• 36:11
  S9: that was something they could all aspire to. He says
• 36:14
  S9: in 1431, I believe it is. You may all prophesy
• 36:17
  S9: one by one. So that was a gift since the
• 36:20
  S9: day of Pentecost, that they could seek for building up
• 36:23
  S9: the body of Christ. So it's true that we also
• 36:26
  S9: can seek certain spiritual gifts, which kind of answers your
• 36:30
  S9: question about whether there can be more than one, because
• 36:33
  S9: obviously we come into the body of Christ, we're born
• 36:36
  S9: into the body of Christ with some spiritual gift already,
• 36:39
  S9: but we also can seek for spiritual gifts.
• 36:42
  S3: And we know that all of the gifts are needed,
• 36:44
  S3: just like a body needs all of the body parts.
• 36:47
  S3: There's that analogy used, but we're also called to seek
• 36:51
  S3: the higher gifts. Explain that a little bit. There's not
• 36:53
  S3: a hierarchy, but are there some that are more valuable
• 36:57
  S3: for the body?
• 36:58
  S9: Yes. Like you said, to seek the higher gifts. And
• 37:01
  S9: then he specifically mentions prophecy when he when he returns
• 37:04
  S9: to the subject and in between, in first Corinthians 13,
• 37:08
  S9: he's dealing with love because love shows us how and
• 37:11
  S9: why to use the spiritual gifts and the reason he
• 37:15
  S9: emphasizes prophecy over tongues in a corporate setting. In one
• 37:19
  S9: Corinthians 14 is that prophecy builds up the body. It's intelligible.
• 37:24
  S9: Whereas tongues, you know, nobody else knows what you're saying
• 37:27
  S9: except with the gift of interpretation, which is another gift.
• 37:31
  S9: It's used for the body. So the point is, the
• 37:34
  S9: greater gifts, at least in a collective corporate setting, are
• 37:38
  S9: the gifts that build up one another.
• 37:41
  S2: Doctor Craig Keener is our guest. Right now I would
• 37:43
  S2: like your perspective. Tongues is an interesting gift. We find
• 37:48
  S2: in Pentecost that it was a language spoken that could
• 37:51
  S2: be heard. But we also find in First Corinthians that
• 37:55
  S2: it's a heavenly language that yes, it's self edifying. So
• 38:01
  S2: that's unique gift in that that's to build up self,
• 38:05
  S2: but it can be used with an interpreter. How do
• 38:09
  S2: you wrestle with the abuses of tongues that many have
• 38:13
  S2: reacted to, and settle on a biblical explanation for how
• 38:19
  S2: this should be done?
• 38:22
  S9: Maybe the most common abuse of tongues is pride. Like
• 38:26
  S9: I'm better because I speak in tongues. In Corinth, I
• 38:29
  S9: think you have that. You also have the gift of
• 38:30
  S9: teaching because he says, knowledge puffs up, but love builds
• 38:34
  S9: up in first Corinthians eight one. And sometimes you have
• 38:36
  S9: churches kind of divided along those lines, like, I'm better
• 38:39
  S9: because I'm smarter than you are, or I'm better because
• 38:43
  S9: I speak in tongues. And in both cases, it's an
• 38:46
  S9: abuse because we're supposed to use our gifts to serve
• 38:50
  S9: one another. Now, in terms of tongues edifying oneself, some
• 38:54
  S9: people take that as a putdown in the context of
• 38:58
  S9: edifying one another in first Corinthians 14. Obviously, that's not
• 39:01
  S9: an ideal, but it's also not a putdown in the
• 39:05
  S9: sense that it's bad to edify yourself. If it's bad
• 39:08
  S9: to edify yourself, then we study the Bible only in
• 39:12
  S9: sermon preparation, right?
• 39:13
  S2: So we better stop praying and start stop studying the scripture, right?
• 39:17
  S2: I mean, because I.
• 39:18
  S9: Only do it in public.
• 39:19
  S2: Yeah, right.
• 39:21
  S9: But also in terms of acts, it was in acts
• 39:25
  S9: chapter two. There's some debate as to whether they were
• 39:28
  S9: preaching in tongues or worshiping God in tongues. I tend
• 39:31
  S9: to think they were worshiping God in tongues, because Peter
• 39:34
  S9: has to go on to preach the gospel to them
• 39:36
  S9: in a way that's intelligible to them. And in acts
• 39:40
  S9: ten and acts 19, acts 1046 and 1906, I believe,
• 39:45
  S9: where you have people speaking in tongues. Again, there's no
• 39:48
  S9: evidence anybody there understands them, just like in first Corinthians 14.
• 39:53
  S9: I mean, with thousands of languages in the world, chances are,
• 39:56
  S9: unless God sets it up, somebody's going to recognize the language.
• 39:59
  S9: Nobody's going to recognize it. Which is why if it's
• 40:02
  S9: meant to communicate or even if it's meant, you know,
• 40:06
  S9: for other people to enter into the worship of God.
• 40:08
  S9: If it's prayer and praise, which I think it normally
• 40:11
  S9: is in the Bible, there'd have to be somebody there
• 40:13
  S9: who would either understand it or you've got a you've
• 40:16
  S9: got to have a supernatural interpretation.
• 40:19
  S2: So let's toggle back to you touched on the gift
• 40:21
  S2: of prophecy. Uh, Doctor Craig Keener, our guest right now. Prophecy.
• 40:27
  S2: I guess the danger point is when we are speaking
• 40:31
  S2: forth a truth that does not comport with the Scripture
• 40:35
  S2: or conflicts with Scripture. Is that is that right?
• 40:38
  S9: Yeah. If it doesn't comport with Scripture, it's not true.
• 40:41
  S9: Scripture is the canon of canon means a measuring stick.
• 40:45
  S9: That's how we can measure any other claim to be
• 40:49
  S9: speaking for God, whether it's in preaching or teaching or prophecy. Now,
• 40:54
  S9: some people have said that prophecy would compete with Scripture
• 40:58
  S9: because they both claim to be the word of the Lord.
• 41:01
  S9: But you could say the same thing about teaching scripture
• 41:04
  S9: has to be the norm, by which we evaluate all
• 41:06
  S9: of the claims to speak for God or to hear
• 41:09
  S9: from God. And God speaks to each of us when
• 41:11
  S9: he's bearing witness with our spirit that we're God's children.
• 41:15
  S9: Or Romans chapter five five through eight, his Spirit testifying
• 41:19
  S9: in our hearts about how much he loves us and
• 41:22
  S9: so on. You know, he speaks to us in those ways.
• 41:25
  S9: So sometimes I believe he speaks to us in ways
• 41:28
  S9: to encourage someone else as well. I don't believe prophecy
• 41:32
  S9: has ever meant to introduce new doctrine. Neither should teaching.
• 41:35
  S9: I mean, they should expound what we already have in Scripture,
• 41:39
  S9: like what we have in the book of acts. It's
• 41:41
  S9: not a matter of new doctrine. It's like acts chapter 11,
• 41:44
  S9: the famine is coming, or acts chapter 21. Paul, you're
• 41:48
  S9: going to get beat up in Jerusalem. Can be used
• 41:50
  S9: in those ways like we hear from God, our calling,
• 41:53
  S9: or God leads us to a certain ministry or a
• 41:56
  S9: certain place.
• 41:57
  S3: Doctor Craig Keener, our guest this morning, was something that's
• 42:00
  S3: come up a couple times in our discussion about spiritual
• 42:02
  S3: gifts this week is the issue of prayer. Most people
• 42:06
  S3: know somebody in their church or in their life who
• 42:08
  S3: they would consider a strong intercessor, or somebody who really
• 42:12
  S3: seems to have a more vibrant prayer life than other people.
• 42:16
  S3: But yet we don't see prayer itself as a spiritual gift.
• 42:20
  S3: Speak to that a little bit. Is that an incorporation
• 42:22
  S3: of other gifts, maybe faith or or prophecy or. Or
• 42:26
  S3: is prayer itself a spiritual gift?
• 42:29
  S9: I don't think any of Paul's lists of spiritual gifts
• 42:32
  S9: are meant to be comprehensive. I think all of them
• 42:35
  S9: are examples. I counted up about nine lists of spiritual
• 42:40
  S9: gifts in Paul's letters. I think you're right in that
• 42:43
  S9: the gift of faith, gifts of healings and things like that,
• 42:47
  S9: all are reflections of particular spiritual gifts that also involve prayer.
• 42:52
  S2: Uh, Craig, there is a list of spiritual gifts that's given, uh,
• 42:57
  S2: that are leadership oriented gifts. Um, apostle, I'm I'm imagining
• 43:04
  S2: that that's a new frontiers, New Horizons type person, uh, teachers,
• 43:09
  S2: evangelists for the equipping of saints to do the work
• 43:14
  S2: of ministry. I just wonder, we've been wondering this whole
• 43:19
  S2: week what would happen if the church were to be equipped,
• 43:25
  S2: intentional equipping of the saints to do. And I love
• 43:29
  S2: the Greek word there. You know it better than I. Aragon,
• 43:32
  S2: by the sweat of their brow to do the heavy
• 43:34
  S2: lifting of ministry. What have we lost there? What needs
• 43:37
  S2: to be reclaimed? And what would the church look like
• 43:40
  S2: if we took that text in Ephesians four to heart?
• 43:44
  S9: That would make a huge difference. I once was attending
• 43:48
  S9: a church where they they listed in the bulletin, the
• 43:51
  S9: pastor and then the youth pastor. And then for the ministers,
• 43:57
  S9: it said, Everybody because we're all called to to minister
• 44:01
  S9: to one another, to build one another up. And ultimately,
• 44:06
  S9: it says to build one another up into full maturity
• 44:09
  S9: as Christ's body, which obviously will help us to to
• 44:13
  S9: reach the world. It will help mobilize us for evangelism.
• 44:17
  S9: And evangelism happens in more than one way. Like in
• 44:20
  S9: acts chapter two, you have the outpouring of the spirit.
• 44:23
  S9: Peter preaching 3000 are converted in acts 241 and you
• 44:27
  S9: get acts 247 and people are being added to the
• 44:30
  S9: church daily as they see how the believers are ministering
• 44:34
  S9: to one another. So it has that impact too, in
• 44:37
  S9: terms of the ministry gifts that are listed in Ephesians 411,
• 44:42
  S9: one thing they all share in common is some sort
• 44:44
  S9: of ministry of the word, some sort of ministry of
• 44:47
  S9: God's word. And that is ultimately, I believe, how God
• 44:51
  S9: builds up the body of Christ the most.
• 44:54
  S3: Doctor Craig Keener, we could go on all morning, but
• 44:57
  S3: we'll put a pin in it for now. If you
• 44:59
  S3: want more resources from Doctor Keener, just text Kiehne KEEN.
• 45:03
  S3: Text keen to 805 557898. Keen to 805 557898.
• 45:12
  S1: Want to hear that again? Just download the Call and
• 45:15
  S1: Crew podcast wherever you like to stream.
• 45:18
  S3: Doctor Erwin Lutzer joining us right now, pastor emeritus of
• 45:21
  S3: Moody Church. You also hear him on running to win
• 45:24
  S3: a daily Bible teaching program right here on Moody Radio.
• 45:27
  S2: Pastor, it's good to have you with us. I'm curious,
• 45:30
  S2: where are you going to take us in the Word
• 45:32
  S2: of God today? What is, for you the most salient
• 45:35
  S2: point of discipleship?
• 45:37
  S10: I'm going to Luke chapter 14, verse 25. Now great
• 45:42
  S10: crowds accompanied him. So he turned and said unto them,
• 45:46
  S10: if anyone comes to me, let him deny himself, take
• 45:50
  S10: up his cross, and he goes on and on. So
• 45:52
  S10: here's the first thing that strikes me is that Jesus
• 45:56
  S10: used discipleship to thin out the crowd. Not everybody followed
• 46:01
  S10: Jesus from then on. And you know, Carl and Ellie,
• 46:05
  S10: even as we're talking to a lot of people this morning,
• 46:09
  S10: not everyone is going to respond in a very proactive
• 46:14
  S10: way to become a disciple. And so what we have
• 46:17
  S10: to do is to realize that we are swimming as
• 46:21
  S10: Christians in the world so much that sometimes we don't
• 46:26
  S10: even live so distinctively with the distinction that Jesus Christ
• 46:31
  S10: calls us to, and we're more worldly than we realize.
• 46:37
  S10: I mean, we fit in so well. What we have
• 46:40
  S10: to do is to recognize that discipleship is very countercultural.
• 46:45
  S10: You know, it's Bonhoeffer, of course, who wrote the famous book,
• 46:48
  S10: The Cost of Discipleship. And I think he makes the
• 46:51
  S10: statement that when Christ calls a man, He comes and
• 46:56
  S10: he bids him come and die. And of course, for Bonhoeffer,
• 47:00
  S10: that's exactly what happened. But discipleship is really a deep
• 47:07
  S10: sense of making Christ first in an extreme way. You know,
• 47:12
  S10: we are so programmed in this world that we're always
• 47:16
  S10: thinking of other things. Discipleship means a radical commitment to
• 47:22
  S10: Jesus Christ and everything that's entailed.
• 47:26
  S3: You know, you mentioned that discipleship is used here by
• 47:29
  S3: Jesus to thin the crowd, which goes against every every
• 47:34
  S3: model for church growth or for evangelism is about to
• 47:38
  S3: a certain extent, gathering a crowd. And we want a
• 47:41
  S3: crowd of people to hear the gospel. One of the
• 47:43
  S3: things we wrestle with often here on the show, which
• 47:44
  S3: I'd like for you to speak to, is that if
• 47:46
  S3: we're not careful, we can lower the bar so that
• 47:49
  S3: more people can clear it when we tell people to,
• 47:53
  S3: you know, even things that are well intentioned, but things
• 47:55
  S3: like just slipping a hand in the air and nobody
• 47:58
  S3: will see. Nobody's looking around or just praying a prayer.
• 48:02
  S3: And we can in some ways, unintentionally mislead people into
• 48:06
  S3: what it actually looks like to follow Jesus. Speak to that.
• 48:10
  S10: Allie, you've raised a very difficult question because on the
• 48:14
  S10: one hand, salvation is a free gift. And I personally,
• 48:20
  S10: and not everybody agrees, make a distinction between a believer
• 48:24
  S10: who's come to saving faith in Christ and a disciple.
• 48:28
  S10: In other words, not all believers are going to follow
• 48:31
  S10: Christ in discipleship. We should never give the impression that
• 48:37
  S10: once you've received Christ as Savior, it's the end of
• 48:40
  S10: the ball game. As a matter of fact, proof of
• 48:43
  S10: your salvation is going to be whether or not you
• 48:47
  S10: seek to the best of your ability to follow through.
• 48:50
  S10: And that, of course, involves discipleship. So on the one hand,
• 48:54
  S10: we can't say, well, you have to be a disciple
• 48:56
  S10: to be saved because that means renouncing your family and
• 49:01
  S10: all in terms of value. But on the other hand,
• 49:05
  S10: the intention of salvation is discipleship. So yes, indeed, on
• 49:12
  S10: the one hand, churches want crowds because they want the
• 49:15
  S10: unsaved to hear the gospel. But on the other hand,
• 49:19
  S10: you have to help people to understand that salvation is
• 49:24
  S10: more than raising a hand. In fact, I think many
• 49:27
  S10: people who raise their hands have never been saved. And
• 49:30
  S10: even those who pray a prayer. I like to point
• 49:34
  S10: out to people that prayer doesn't save you. It's not
• 49:38
  S10: the prayer. It's Christ. And unless there's a work of
• 49:42
  S10: the spirit within the heart, where there's a transfer of
• 49:45
  S10: trust to Christ, I think we've given so many people
• 49:49
  S10: the false impression that you are saved because you prayed
• 49:52
  S10: a prayer, you raised your hand, you went forward even
• 49:56
  S10: in a meeting, and there was no genuine, heartfelt recognition
• 50:01
  S10: of your sinfulness. I've asked myself, why is it that
• 50:06
  S10: so many people who profess Christ never follow through? I
• 50:11
  S10: think it's oftentimes because they see salvation as an add on,
• 50:17
  S10: as a good thing, and they do it without a
• 50:21
  S10: sense of conviction of sin. At the age of 14,
• 50:25
  S10: I came to know Christ as Savior. Now here's a
• 50:28
  S10: farm boy. I hadn't gotten into any trouble the way
• 50:32
  S10: in which it's defined today, but I was so burdened
• 50:37
  S10: with my sin, I was overwhelmed with guilt. And that's
• 50:42
  S10: what drove me to Christ.
• 50:43
  S2: Love that.
• 50:44
  S10: And that's why ever since that time, I know whom
• 50:47
  S10: I have believed and I have the assurance of faith
• 50:50
  S10: because it was a matter of guilt and my need
• 50:54
  S10: driving me to Christ. Now, is that true of people
• 50:57
  S10: who raise their hands? Not necessarily. What they're asking for
• 51:01
  S10: is God's help, not God's redemption.
• 51:05
  S2: Yeah, I'm glad we're going here, Pastor Lutzer, because I've
• 51:08
  S2: done a deep dive doing a lot of work on
• 51:10
  S2: this right now. And it's interesting that the Prince of Preachers,
• 51:14
  S2: Charles Haddon Spurgeon, about 250 years ago, there was a
• 51:19
  S2: move toward what is commonly called now Decisionism, which is
• 51:23
  S2: moving from an encounter with Jesus to a public encounter
• 51:27
  S2: that may or may not indicate genuine, salvific experience. And
• 51:32
  S2: Spurgeon was dead set against these altar calls. I didn't
• 51:34
  S2: know that until recently. And he had rooms of inquiry in.
• 51:38
  S2: His concern was that we've invited people to raise a
• 51:42
  S2: hand when no one's looking around, walk down an aisle,
• 51:44
  S2: pray a prayer, invite Jesus into your heart or even
• 51:49
  S2: accept Jesus, both of which are nowhere in the Scripture.
• 51:51
  S2: How do we fix that? My general observation is Decisionism
• 51:56
  S2: is still with us today, and we've led people into
• 52:00
  S2: an illusion of salvation that many will say on that day, Lord, Lord,
• 52:05
  S2: this is a big issue, pastor.
• 52:07
  S10: And you know, you have articulated it perfectly. We've led
• 52:12
  S10: people to believe that salvation is a decision. And of course,
• 52:17
  S10: it involves a decision, but it's a decision of repentance,
• 52:21
  S10: recognizing your need. It is not simply, you know, yeah,
• 52:26
  S10: I need Jesus for my help. You don't need help.
• 52:30
  S10: You need to be rescued. And if you don't see that,
• 52:33
  S10: you need to be rescued from your sin, your faith
• 52:37
  S10: is probably going to be vain. It's going to fall
• 52:40
  S10: short of regeneration. So we must preach to help people,
• 52:45
  S10: to feel the weight of their sin so that they
• 52:50
  S10: know this is not just a hand raise or a
• 52:53
  S10: quick prayer. This is a turning from sin to Christ.
• 52:59
  S2: Amen. So, pastor, it was a number of years ago,
• 53:02
  S2: you were in studio with us and we, for the
• 53:06
  S2: first time ever shared the real gospel on air. Gospel
• 53:10
  S2: of recognition of sin and repentance. I feel prompted we
• 53:14
  S2: need to do that right now. What is the good news,
• 53:18
  S2: Pastor Lutzer?
• 53:19
  S10: Well, the good news makes little sense. Unless, first of all,
• 53:23
  S10: you accept the bad news. The bad news is that
• 53:27
  S10: we are deeply fallen people. And I want to speak
• 53:31
  S10: to everyone listening at this moment. You are not only
• 53:35
  S10: a sinner, but you are a sinner that is much
• 53:38
  S10: more in need of help than you realize. And that's
• 53:42
  S10: really true of all of us. We are deeply fallen.
• 53:45
  S10: And unless you recognize your sinfulness, if you don't recognize
• 53:51
  S10: your sin, you won't know exactly why you need a Savior.
• 53:56
  S10: Now Jesus died for sinners. He didn't die for the
• 54:02
  S10: righteous person who comes and says, I'm pretty good, but
• 54:06
  S10: I could use some help. That's not the gospel. It is.
• 54:10
  S10: You're a sinner and you recognize your sin, and you
• 54:14
  S10: are convicted of that sin. And you say, Jesus, rescue
• 54:18
  S10: me and thank you for making a sacrifice on the
• 54:21
  S10: cross that enables me by faith to receive the gift
• 54:26
  S10: of eternal life. And that means forgiveness. It means from
• 54:30
  S10: now on, I belong to you. And of course, your
• 54:34
  S10: intention at that point would be definitely to follow Jesus,
• 54:37
  S10: whatever that means. But you come helplessly. Nothing in my
• 54:42
  S10: hands I bring simply to thy cross I cling. And
• 54:48
  S10: so that's the gospel. And you can receive Christ even
• 54:53
  S10: while you're driving a car, though I suggest you drive
• 54:56
  S10: very carefully while you're praying. But if the Holy Spirit
• 55:00
  S10: of God is speaking to you right now and saying,
• 55:03
  S10: you know, I think that my faith was fake. I
• 55:07
  S10: wanted God's help, but I didn't know I needed his
• 55:12
  S10: rescuing and his deliverance. So I want to do that.
• 55:16
  S10: And as many as received him, to those he gives
• 55:20
  S10: the authority to become the children of God, even to
• 55:23
  S10: those who believe on his name. And all throughout the
• 55:27
  S10: listening area right now, there could be people who say,
• 55:30
  S10: you know, I am a fake. I fooled myself. This
• 55:36
  S10: is my moment when I leave that behind and acknowledge
• 55:41
  S10: my desperate need as a sinner.
• 55:44
  S2: Beautiful. Right now, all across the United States, Canada, and beyond.
• 55:51
  S2: The Holy Spirit is working. It is a cry of
• 55:54
  S2: the soul. It's not a patent prayer. It's not walking
• 55:58
  S2: an aisle. It's not music in the background. It's God
• 56:01
  S2: putting a new song in your heart. It's faith alone.
• 56:07
  S2: It's acknowledging you're a sinner and saying, oh God, I repent.
• 56:12
  S2: And today I turn from the broad path onto the
• 56:14
  S2: narrow path. And if this is you today and you
• 56:17
  S2: know it because the blues are bluer, the greens are greener,
• 56:20
  S2: and your soul has a new song in its heart.
• 56:23
  S2: It's one of hope. We want to welcome you to
• 56:26
  S2: the family, and we want to help you in your
• 56:28
  S2: first steps with Jesus Christ. And this is how we're
• 56:31
  S2: going to do it today.
• 56:32
  S3: Just text new NEW to 800 555 7898. Just that
• 56:40
  S3: one word new to (800) 555-7898. We're going to send just
• 56:47
  S3: a quick form for you to fill out. This is
• 56:49
  S3: going to allow us to have a member of our
• 56:51
  S3: team here follow up with you directly, help you get connected,
• 56:55
  S3: see if there's any way that we can support you.
• 56:57
  S3: Just text new to 805 557898.
• 57:02
  S10: What could be more precious to people who are struggling
• 57:06
  S10: than the gospel? Just today I read Romans one. You
• 57:09
  S10: know it is the power of God unto salvation. So
• 57:13
  S10: it isn't human effort added to the divine work. It
• 57:17
  S10: is entirely the divine work, but it is received by
• 57:22
  S10: faith as the spirit enables.
• 57:24
  S2: This is discipleship. It begins with the miraculous regeneration by
• 57:30
  S2: the power of the spirit in the soul of men
• 57:33
  S2: and women. This is new life. Text new to 805 557898.