Latest / Adventures in Adversity: an inspirational podcast / Ep. 79: From deception to redemption - Christian publisher, author, & speaker Athena Dean Holtz's story

Transcript

Ep. 79: From deception to redemption - Christian publisher, author, & speaker Athena Dean Holtz's story · Adventures in Adversity: an inspirational podcast

0:00
All right, we are back. As I always say, I'm so excited
0:04
every time I get the chance to sit in this chair and say that
0:08
it is time for another episode of Adventures and Adversity.
0:13
And for those of you who are new here, so excited to have a new
0:17
listener, grateful you're here. And this podcast is really kind
0:22
of simple. We talk to real people who tell
0:26
true stories about how they have overcome adversity in their life
0:32
or are currently overcoming adversity because we know it's
0:35
not something that just stops. It takes many, many forms in
0:40
life. So with that, I would like to
0:43
just say thank you and introduce my new guest at the same time.
0:48
Athena, thank you so much for being here.
0:51
Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah, you're welcome.
0:55
And your full name is Athena Dean Holtz, correctly
0:59
pronounced. Yes, ma'am.
1:01
And in the show notes, when this goes live, you'll be able to
1:05
learn all about her in addition to the story and and everything
1:08
we're going to go through today. But be sure to check out her
1:11
website, her podcast, her Instagram, all the things right
1:16
down below when you are watching this.
1:19
So Athena, thank you again for being here.
1:22
And I personally, I kept this hat on for a reason.
1:26
I was just telling you and the, the lady at the coffee shop, she
1:30
was like, oh, what's TYJ? And I said, oh, my friend
1:33
actually gave this to me. It's thank you, Jesus.
1:35
And it says it on the on the back.
1:37
And the reason I say that is I'm pretty sure you say thank you,
1:42
Jesus, quite a bit in your life, in your profession.
1:47
Yes. Once in a while.
1:49
Yeah. Well, and there's always, you
1:52
know, whether it's because it's a great thing that I'm thanking
1:56
him, and even if it's like, OK, this is hard, I still thank him
2:01
because he's sovereign. This is true.
2:05
This is true. So, and I'm gonna what I wanna
2:09
do is not talk a lot. I want to just ask questions and
2:12
give you a chance to talk about gosh, where do we even start?
2:17
Because you are an author. You're a founder of Redemption
2:22
Press, a publishing company. That is so cool.
2:26
I love that name. You are a survivor of spiritual
2:32
abuse, which you'll, I would, you know, I'm, I'm grateful that
2:37
you're open to talking about that.
2:40
And you are a human being who I think has a lot to say and a lot
2:46
to offer when it comes to spirituality and, and connecting
2:49
with God. So I'm going to give it over to
2:51
you. Tell me about, tell me your
2:54
story. Tell me where where you'd like
2:56
to start. Wow.
2:59
All right. Well, that I go lots of
3:01
different directions. But you can go any direction you
3:03
want. I will just say that, you know,
3:07
I didn't hear anything about God growing up.
3:10
Nothing, no Awana or VBS or going to church or any of that.
3:17
And was mostly around kind of more New Agey kind of
3:24
philosophies in my growing up years and came to a place where
3:30
I kind of thought Christians were kind of wimpy.
3:35
And like I was very successful in business even in my mid 20s
3:40
and just thought, you know, I don't need that crutch.
3:45
I don't, I don't need, I don't need that.
3:47
And I didn't realize how much of A Christian hater I was at that
3:54
point. I mean, I really was very
3:57
adamant about, you know, those are not my people.
4:01
And so, in fact, one time this lady, I don't know what I was
4:08
doing. I was doing some sort of a
4:10
canvassing in an area. And she answered the door and
4:13
said, oh, you know, we talked a little.
4:15
She said, so are you a Christian?
4:17
And I go, well, I'm not Jewish and I live in America, so yeah,
4:26
I'm a Christian. I mean, that was, you know, that
4:29
was the extent of what I thought being a Christian meant.
4:33
And it was probably, I mean, I was 33 when I actually heard the
4:42
gospel and heard about Jesus and really, truly, like my heart had
4:47
been prepared for that moment. And that's a whole story that is
4:52
in my memoir about how it happened.
4:55
But just the short version, I was married to a Vietnam veteran
5:01
at that time. And he was pretty out there as
5:06
far as not wanting to follow rules.
5:10
And so he was one of those guys that didn't believe that the
5:16
paper money is really worth anything.
5:19
It has to be gold or silver. And so he had this business
5:25
where he was using a bank that was like not a normal bank, but
5:30
a bank for where it turned everything into gold and silver.
5:35
So there. And he also thought, you know,
5:37
he shouldn't have to have a driver's license if he want to
5:40
drive down the street because he fought for this country and, you
5:43
know, just they shouldn't have to have a Social Security
5:45
number, that kind of extreme viewpoint.
5:51
And I was selling securities and mutual funds and insurance at
5:58
that time and was was very successful at it and didn't
6:05
realize what a potential liability my husband was going
6:10
to become for those viewpoints that he held.
6:15
And anyway, he got in trouble because his business he ran
6:22
based on those rules, not the real, real world views.
6:28
And so when that happened, I mean, I was driving my car to a
6:33
business meeting and I heard it on the radio on the big Seattle
6:39
station news station saying Chuck and Athena Dean indicted
6:43
for fraud. And I'm like, what?
6:48
I mean, that's the last thing you want included by your name
6:53
when you're securities licensed and you're selling securities
6:58
and insurance. I mean, that's like, not good.
7:01
And I almost lost my entire income and I was making six
7:06
figures. I was one of the first senior
7:07
vice presidents of this company. That was especially of females.
7:11
There were very few females at the top.
7:14
And so that when that happened and I knew it was just, I didn't
7:20
have anything to do with it, but it had to do with his deal and
7:25
that really I was like, OK, we're done.
7:29
I'm not, you know, my business was more important than my
7:31
marriage, honestly, that that was kind of where I was at.
7:36
And so I was just said, we're done.
7:41
And it was about 3 or 4 weeks later that he had a radical
7:47
encounter with Jesus, which I was like, OK, that sounds weird,
7:53
but he looks different and like, wow, what, What is this?
8:00
And yeah, yeah. And he even said on a whim with
8:06
this guy, he said, OK, look, I've tried everything else, I'll
8:09
try Jesus. And he prayed.
8:12
So basically it took me probably another week when I.
8:18
And then I heard myself saying, well, you know, maybe we can
8:22
work this out. And gosh, I guess I'm going to
8:25
have to be one of those. Like if that's what you are, I'm
8:28
going to have to be one of those.
8:30
I mean, I didn't even know what I was talking about but.
8:33
You saw a shift in him, right? I'm thinking, what did you do?
8:36
You remember what you saw that was different.
8:39
He was just like filled with this piece where before he was
8:47
just like anxious and freaking out and angry.
8:52
And, and it was, it was just a pretty miraculous change.
8:58
And so I basically, you know, called someone involved in the
9:03
business I was in that I knew was a believer.
9:05
And I just said, OK, I don't know what this is about, but I
9:08
guess I need to do this. And so, you know, I, I went from
9:13
there, like headlong into ministry.
9:18
The two of us helped launch a ministry called Point Man
9:23
Ministries, which was for Vietnam Veterans and their
9:25
family members. It's still around to this day.
9:29
And this was in the late 80s. So it's 86.
9:34
And we were just, we could see the need for these veterans to
9:42
understand post traumatic stress.
9:44
I mean, it wasn't even a word back then, but they were, you
9:48
know, not handling well this return to civilian lives.
9:53
These wives, we're looking at them going, you're not the same
9:56
man that left to go to war. I mean, there was on both sides.
10:00
There was a lot of damage. And so we were learning about
10:05
and then teaching them about post traumatic stress.
10:09
And you're not crazy. This is a normal reaction to an
10:12
abnormal experience. So we just, I mean, it wasn't
10:21
long before I looked at these other wives because we were
10:24
mostly working with the wives of these veterans and said, you
10:27
know what? They don't have a corner on the
10:29
market. Like we have our own trauma and
10:32
our own PTSD, but it's not maybe it's not war induced.
10:38
But you know, I, you know, at that point I hadn't even really
10:44
remembered. It wasn't until I was 40 that I
10:46
remembered of some sexual abuse as a child.
10:50
My dad forced me into an abortion when I was a teenager.
10:55
I had my first marriage was domestic violence 24/7.
11:01
So I had a lot of baggage that it took me a long time to
11:08
recognize that I even had it because, you know, I think the
11:12
Lord is good to us in that way. He allows us to not remember a
11:16
lot of those things until it's time.
11:20
And I guess I, if I, you know, kind of look at back at that
11:32
time in my life, I was a complete workaholic.
11:36
I was, you know, just enthralled with being, you know, one of the
11:41
few women at the top of this company and, you know, just
11:46
success was like a drug and my medication of choice to keep the
11:54
trauma that was yet healed. Not it wasn't healed yet never
12:00
processed or anything to kind of keep that back.
12:04
I worked, you know, 60 hour weeks and loved it and succeeded
12:09
and all the things not knowing that that wasn't a real healthy
12:13
choice. And it what was interesting is
12:19
during that time when we were working with the veterans and I
12:23
was working with the wives, we had a kind of getaway one
12:28
weekend where we were looking for answers.
12:30
Like we understood the psychological piece of post
12:35
traumatic stress. We understood the physical piece
12:40
of post traumatic stress because if if there was something
12:44
similar like a sound or a song or a smell, yes, yes, that
12:52
triggers like your brain doesn't know the difference between a
12:58
true real threat and a perceived threat.
13:03
So triggers are happening all over the place.
13:06
I mean, I'll never forget seeing we were at the moving wall.
13:11
Well, it wasn't the moving wall because this was the one in
13:13
Washington, DC. So the memorial for the Vietnam
13:17
Veterans and it was the 4th of July.
13:22
So of course they're setting off all these fireworks and these
13:29
guys are just like on the ground because it sounded, no, it
13:34
sounded just like incoming. Yeah.
13:38
And I'm like, what is going on? Like that kind of started the
13:43
research into adrenaline and triggers and how that all comes
13:48
about. And you know, it was like, so
13:52
we, we understood the physical reaction and the psychological
13:57
reaction, but we hadn't really connected any sort of spiritual,
14:02
like what is the spiritual thing that's happening here?
14:05
Well, we went away for a weekend to a cabin and just prayed and
14:09
said, God, you need to show us what, what are we missing?
14:12
And the scripture we all went to was Psalm 147.
14:18
He heals the broken hearted and binds up their wounds.
14:23
And I'm like, because I always in my mind just thought our
14:29
unhealed wounds are controlling us.
14:32
They're controlling us if we are reacting like that, overreacting
14:37
to things and not even knowing why.
14:39
It's, you're right, it's complete control, right?
14:43
So get this we I go to the back of my Bible that has the Greek
14:48
and Hebrew. So since it was in psalms it had
14:52
a Hebrew root to that word. So I I went and looked it up and
14:59
it said wound Atstabeth. So the the Hebrew word was
15:06
Atstabeth. It is an idol.
15:15
Yeah, like and so for. So that that for people who
15:22
might not know what that means, that's kind of like the wound is
15:26
something you're bowing down to controlling.
15:28
Exactly you're. Worshipping it, almost like I, I
15:32
must. It's in control.
15:34
It's you are worshipping it. You are.
15:36
It's like worshipping it. Yeah, but of course a completely
15:42
naive to it completely. I mean, that was not on my
15:46
radar. We're doing that, not realizing
15:48
it, which was like, sweet, I have an answer and I know what
15:54
to do repent. I I mean, I can just say God, I
15:58
didn't know I was doing that. Would you forgive me?
16:01
So I cannot be controlled by my wounds and, you know, grow in
16:09
healthy ways. And it was like, that was just
16:14
like, I call it my heavy Revi because it was just like such a,
16:18
an amazing understanding that there was the spiritual aspect
16:24
that God tells us, I don't want you to worship other idols, you
16:29
know, worship me, worship God, not idols.
16:32
And so it, that was kind of the beginning of my awakening to,
16:41
OK, I have this stuff and it's not healed.
16:47
So I, it, it is an idol for me because it is, I am allowing it
16:53
to control me unknowingly, of course.
16:57
And so I, that was kind of a defining moment where I actually
17:02
had an opportunity to say, OK, I need to take some time off.
17:09
I need to go get quiet, maybe get a counselor, do something
17:13
where I could get maybe just some of the things that I've
17:17
remembered. I didn't.
17:18
There's a lot of stuff I still don't remember.
17:20
But what I do, I need to be able to process that and and just let
17:26
the Lord heal me and heal my heart and I got distracted by
17:32
another business that I squirrel.
17:38
You're like, I can get successful.
17:40
I know how to do that. Right.
17:42
And I mean, I'm sure it was not a conscious.
17:45
I'm just going to say no to God, but that's what I did.
17:49
Yeah, like you can. So that basically led to about,
18:00
I would say eight years later in I had Co founded Winepress
18:07
Publishing, which was the first credible custom publisher in the
18:15
Christian market back in the day.
18:17
So it was like the first self-publishing option that was
18:22
credible. So I kind of didn't even know
18:25
it, but I was pioneering that in our industry.
18:30
And about eight years in, I ended up publishing a book for
18:37
someone who knew all the words to say and knew all the lingo,
18:43
but they were a fraud. They were a a wolf in sheep's
18:48
clothing. And I did not realize it till 13
18:53
years later. And in that period of 13 years I
18:59
lost everything, like everything.
19:04
My marriage, my relationship with my kids, my 3.5 million
19:09
twenty year old company, my house, my car, I mean every.
19:14
I lost all of it. And I thought that whole time
19:20
that I was hearing from God and doing God's will.
19:25
That's pretty. I mean to realize that.
19:30
I mean, when I came out the other end and realized I had
19:34
been duped, it was kind of the same feeling that I had when I
19:43
as an unbeliever, before I ever became a Christian.
19:46
I spent seven years in Scientology, in Hollywood, at
19:54
the big manner where all the celebrities were.
20:00
And that book, there's a lot there.
20:02
Wow. Yeah, yeah.
20:03
And I mean, I signed up John Travolta for his first class and
20:10
you know, I mean, I was, you know, it was very, it appealed
20:13
to my pride big time, big time. And I, and so seven years in, I
20:19
mean, I went way up in the on the ladder, right?
20:25
And you know, didn't I? I didn't see it for what it was,
20:32
but I didn't, I had no discernment.
20:33
So why would I? It's hard to see when you're
20:37
when you're being duped in a. Yes, but here and here was the
20:43
turn time. Yes, so here was the turning
20:46
point for that. And and they kind of connect.
20:51
We moved into this house and somebody had left kind of a
20:54
partial library and just one day out of the blue, I just picked a
21:01
book off that shelf, open it up. And it was called White
21:06
Witchcraft by Aleister Crowley. Now Aleister Crowley, like,
21:12
brought witchcraft to the United States from England, like bad
21:16
dude, right? And I'm like, you know, I, I had
21:21
no idea. You thought it was supposed?
21:23
To be like a Scientology. You were in Scientology at the
21:25
time when you find the book. Is that what?
21:27
OK, yes. And so I just opened it up to a
21:35
place where, wait a second, Like, the wording in this book
21:42
was something I had read in one of Scientology books, one of the
21:46
Scientology books by L Ron Hubbard, who was.
21:49
Yeah. The dynamics, right?
21:51
Right. And I'm.
21:53
Weird that the witchcraft so so the language that you had read
21:57
mirrored the language you're reading in this witchcraft.
21:59
Book. It was word for word.
22:02
And I'm like, so wait a second. This guy who is like the source
22:07
of all wisdom of Scientology plagiarized this witchcraft book
22:14
and put his own name on it. And I was like, duped.
22:20
I have been duped. This guy is a fraud.
22:23
I mean, that was like, that opened my eyes.
22:25
I walked away from it, but it was that same feeling that I got
22:30
with this after losing everything.
22:36
It was that same I have been duped again and this was a quote
22:44
UN quote Christian I would call a cult.
22:47
It was a call, a Christian cult. I was going to say that before
22:51
and I was like, oh. Yep, no.
22:54
Or Scientology it it and then? Well, Scientology is a cult.
22:58
It is a cult. We yeah, yes, it is a cult.
23:00
Well, I, it was almost like a Deja Vu because all of a sudden
23:04
I realized I have been duped again and just too similar to
23:13
just realize that the leader is a fraud and that I thought he
23:19
was legit. So that was a real, that was a,
23:24
a very defining moment that then took me to a place where my son,
23:32
I reconciled with my kids. My son took me to a lawyer and
23:36
had him look at the sale documents of the publishing
23:40
company and the guy just one page after another, fraud,
23:45
fraud, fraud. He was like shaking his head,
23:48
like in disbelief that they had created those documents and made
23:54
me sign them. And so you're sitting there
23:56
going like that feeling of just, I know that feeling in a
24:02
different situation of a being like there's like, I really
24:06
didn't like the your altered reality.
24:08
It's like something is like, well.
24:11
And especially the fact that I walked away saying, if this is
24:16
God, I don't want him. This is ridiculous.
24:19
What you know what, I was the kind of oppression I was under
24:22
was just like, OK, if, if this is God, not I'm not buying
24:26
anymore. And so to sit there and go, that
24:30
wasn't God. That was a crook, that was a
24:33
fraudster. That was just a, an absolute
24:38
defining moment to realize that. And it helped me really start to
24:44
heal because, well, it helped me start to heal.
24:48
Plus one other thing. And that and it was probably I,
24:53
I started getting counseling to try and figure out how the heck
24:58
did I get here thinking a lie was the truth and willing to
25:03
give up everything for it. How did that happen?
25:07
And as I began to see different things, God just showed me He
25:14
was trying to get me to get some healing all those years ago.
25:20
And I said no, I was disobedient to that.
25:24
And because of that, it left me vulnerable to deception that
25:31
unhealed. All those unhealed wounds just
25:37
made me vulnerable because I'm always overreacting under
25:41
reacting in appropriately reacting because of that
25:47
unhealed trauma so that I could own that because I'm the one who
25:53
said Nope, not go in there. So I was able.
25:56
Now does that mean what they did to me was OK?
25:59
Absolutely not. It was as evil as evil can be,
26:04
but I had to own my part. And I got a chance to see other
26:10
like just red flags that I ignored.
26:14
I didn't want to see them because this guy was printing
26:17
5000 books and that was a big ticket item and I had a bunch of
26:21
bills that I planned to pay with it.
26:23
So I didn't want to hear it. I didn't want to hear the editor
26:26
say don't publish this. This is shady.
26:31
So just my own lack of faith that God would send me another
26:37
couple authors or people that need to print books, you know,
26:41
easily he could have done that, but I didn't trust him for it.
26:45
And then the third thing that he showed me was I hardly knew
26:51
anything about the Bible. I mean, I've been a, I've been a
26:54
believer for 13 years when I got sucked into this thing and I
27:01
didn't really know the difference between scripture in
27:05
context and out of context. I didn't, I'd never even heard
27:09
that term. And anyone can take one
27:14
scripture and make it say whatever they wanted to say to
27:17
justify whatever their agenda is.
27:21
But if you go back into the Bible and read before it and
27:24
read after it, that can make all the difference.
27:28
It can make that one sentence mean something completely
27:32
different. And scripture tell tells us that
27:37
we need to rightly handle the word of God.
27:39
We need to be Bereans who study to show ourselves approved.
27:44
I never did that. I mean, I read more devotionals
27:47
than I did the Bible. And so I again, that left me
27:54
vulnerable to deception because I didn't know how to say, wait a
28:00
second, you said this and this is what the scripture says.
28:05
I never knew to do that. So that was really a huge, you
28:11
know, even just going back to your, this the title of your
28:18
podcast Adventures in adversity. Well, this I mean God gets does
28:24
some of his greatest work in adversity and to see like, wow,
28:32
OK, I own my part. It doesn't make it right what
28:37
they did to me, but I grew so much from that recognition of
28:46
what I had done, how I had. I set it up.
28:50
I mean, I set myself up for failure and I had to be willing
28:54
to say, my bad, that was wrong on my part and I need to repent
29:00
for that and say say, Lord, I'm sorry.
29:03
I, I, you know, obviously I didn't do it like intentionally,
29:07
like I'm going to go do this. So that was probably the biggest
29:17
defining moment in my healing process was taking ownership and
29:23
then realizing from that that God works.
29:27
He can work all things together for good, no matter how bad it
29:34
is. And he does that.
29:36
And he began to do that. I mean, just those realizations,
29:40
those three things, that was like a game changer for me.
29:44
That changed my life to understand the consequence of
29:50
that behavior and to own it. And so I grew, you know, when my
29:56
soul grew in maturity during that time of healing and seeing
30:03
those things and then being starting to actually look for
30:07
those things. Like when I have a trial going
30:11
on and it's really hard. Rather than griping to God about
30:16
can you, can we just like get this over with, please?
30:20
Instead, I'd say, what are you trying to teach me God?
30:23
What, what am I supposed to learn from this?
30:27
Because then I can look at it in a different absolutely through
30:31
different eyes and actually grow from it.
30:39
So good. And it's like you're looking at
30:41
life as like every trial as sort of a, a course a part of like,
30:46
you know, you're going to come out differently.
30:47
And I know what you mean when you said once you realize those
30:49
three things, when you emerge from abuse and false realities
30:59
and losing everything and then losing your sense of what's
31:03
real, you're so stripped down. And it like for me, I found once
31:08
I surrendered and was like, oh, yeah, that was a bad choice.
31:12
That was their bad choice. But I can see how I put myself
31:14
in the position to be vulnerable to that.
31:16
So I, I knew I shouldn't have done that.
31:19
It's like you put the ego down finally and then all of a sudden
31:24
you're like, OK, I owned it. I said it, I did that.
31:29
I and then then you start to feel like something happens,
31:33
starts to ship, which is God, right?
31:35
Like he's like just just repent owner, like accountability and
31:39
repentance. It's it's almost like let trying
31:42
to let go of the shame and just being like, yeah, I messed up.
31:47
Yeah, but and to be able to say I understand I'm not perfect,
31:52
you know, my heart is deceitfully wicked.
31:54
I mean, the Bible does say that. And David, David even had to
31:58
pray in the Psalms. Lord, help me not to lie to
32:02
myself. It's so easy for us to do that
32:06
because we look at other people and we judge them on their
32:08
behavior, but we look at ourselves and we judge ourselves
32:13
on our intentions. We go way easy on ourselves, you
32:19
know, and hard on other people. You did that, but it doesn't
32:23
matter, right? That you did that or I did that,
32:26
Yeah, yeah. And, and just to realize also
32:30
which it was true in Scientology, it was true in this
32:34
Christian cult, The main hook that they get in you or that
32:41
they got in me. And I, I just find it every time
32:44
I ever talk to anyone that's that's sucked into something
32:47
like that, they resonate is they appeal to our pride.
32:52
Like, look, we got the corner on them.
32:54
I mean, like as a Scientologist, we're going to clear the planet.
32:57
We got, you know, we got all this knowledge, this wisdom,
33:01
this, you know, all this knowledge that other people
33:05
don't have. So that's appealing to our
33:07
pride. Then this is, oh, we're on the
33:09
narrow Rd. everyone else is on the wide Rd.
33:12
We're special. So that again is appealing to
33:16
our pride. And I mean, what does that put
33:20
us in league with? I mean, the enemy is all about
33:24
pride. And that was the greatest sin
33:27
that caused the fall, right? The pride of so it's I, I'm
33:31
really glad you said that because there's like an ego in
33:35
that. There's A and as someone who's
33:39
like rediscovering my faith, it's really important to be
33:43
aware of this side of it. Yep.
33:47
Right. I mean, like, it's just you
33:48
can't just bury your head and pretend it's not there, right?
33:53
There's a false side to most things, right?
33:57
Yep. Yep, and that and and you're
34:01
bringing that up like my most recent book is actually a
34:05
resurrection of a book we did during our Vietnam vet ministry
34:09
days where we take the Vietcong who were the enemy in Vietnam
34:17
and just dissect the strategies that they used as you know,
34:26
soldiers and they line up with the way Satan operates in our
34:33
lives. The I mean, it is like mind
34:38
blowing to understand how they're, the parallel is
34:44
incredible. And the 1st part of overcoming
34:50
anything like that is to recognize it.
34:53
If we don't recognize the enemy's schemes against us and
34:58
how he tries to silence us or confuse us or distract us or
35:03
whatever it is, if we don't recognize it, then we can't
35:08
resist it. You have to look at it right and
35:11
name it like, wow. Now let me ask you this, when
35:17
you look back on both of those experiences where you know,
35:20
spiritual abuse, cult situations, now that you know
35:25
what you know, now if someone were to be like, what should I
35:29
be on? If someone was new in a faith
35:31
journey and they're exploring different religions and they're
35:33
like, I'm just looking into everything, Buddhism,
35:35
Scientology, Christianity, I'm trying it all.
35:38
What are the red flags to look for that this might not be a
35:42
good spiritual situation? Well, let me start with, there
35:51
are so many different movements out there that are influenced
36:00
and kind of the the root of that, like whatever the movement
36:08
is, is a cultic. So it usually goes from the
36:13
occult to the new age. There's kind of that bridge.
36:17
And just to give here, I'll give you an example.
36:20
So there's the Enneagram. I've heard of this.
36:25
All right, so that has gone. That has gone like wildfire
36:28
through the church. You know, people are using it
36:31
all the time. I'm a one, I'm A8.
36:32
I'm a three. I'm A.
36:34
Spiritual and for what it for? For someone who doesn't know
36:36
what an enneagram is, what is that?
36:38
It is basically this, it's just this diagram where it's got 9
36:44
points to it. It almost looks like a satanic
36:47
star within inside a circle. But but the, the points that are
36:53
touching the rim of the circle all are a personality trait and
36:59
it kind of a a name for your type of personality.
37:04
And so there's nine of those. And the guy who developed the
37:12
Enneagram at the beginning, kind of the foundation of it, was an
37:16
occultist, OK. So he was, I mean, he was
37:21
basically controlled by the enemy, by the devil, I mean by
37:26
Satan. No, no whitewashing that.
37:29
And then the guy who actually a number of years later took it
37:35
and turned it into this kind of personality test.
37:39
Everybody loves to take a personality test, right?
37:43
Yeah. And he, he basically was on a
37:48
there's a YouTube video that shows him being interviewed.
37:52
And he said, yeah, well, I'm the one who developed the 9:00
37:58
personalities, and I got it from automatic writing.
38:04
OK, so automatic writing is basically a spirit that is
38:12
writing through you. Just like, like back when I was
38:17
in the new age, there was the big thing about channeling.
38:22
They were channeling a voice that would come out of them, but
38:26
that was a demon that was speaking through the person.
38:30
So it's like the same thing. This is coming through the pen
38:33
that was coming through a person.
38:36
And the guys, I mean, basically just said it right there.
38:39
That's how I got that. That's how I got the nine names
38:42
and the descriptions of each. And I'm like.
38:45
That's not good. I mean, when I heard that I had
38:50
already as a publisher published a book on the Enneagram from a
38:56
Christian perspective and I thought I had done all my
38:59
homework and it was not New Age at all.
39:02
And I thought it was totally fine.
39:05
And then I saw that and I ended up digging again and finding
39:09
out, Oh no, there is no, that is that is irredeemable.
39:15
You cannot take something that root is in the Satanism and and
39:23
the occult. You can't make it good.
39:25
You can't slap a scripture on it and say hey look this works.
39:30
It's all about the roots of what?
39:31
Yeah. Yes.
39:34
But it's again, like that feeling of kind of dupe, like
39:37
you're just like you're vulnerable because you know,
39:41
it's like all these things, these things you.
39:43
Don't. See.
39:44
Because. They're still, yeah, I still
39:49
have a bunch of unhealed wounding.
39:53
I've gotten a lot of counseling. I've dealt with a whole lot, but
39:57
there's still more there. And so I still can tend to be,
40:02
you know, vulnerable. And so, I mean, I knew what I
40:05
had to do. When I found out I was wrong, I
40:08
took the book out of print. I announced it publicly that
40:12
this was wrong, that I should not have given it credibility.
40:16
And you know. That took you just embrace what
40:20
is true and try to learn. It's like when you you kind of
40:24
just look at it in the face and say this is what it is.
40:28
The here's my part in it. Here's what I didn't know.
40:30
Here's what I wish I could have done and like, I'm going to be
40:33
better for it. Yep.
40:35
Right. And that's, that's how we're
40:36
supposed to take responsibility when we are influencers and
40:40
we're influencing others and we realize we're wrong.
40:44
We don't just like scrub it from our website so it looks like we
40:49
never talked about it. No, we actually admit it and do
40:55
what we need to do to make it right.
40:58
And I have so much respect for people who do that where because
41:01
it's, it's just like, hey, to err is human, right?
41:04
And then to forgive divine, which where does that come from?
41:07
Something. Not the Bible, but something
41:09
right? Some philosopher or something?
41:11
The Aristotle word I don't know. The Bible.
41:13
So I'm like, wait, they're like, no Bree, that's not Bible.
41:16
I'm like go on in the world, but to forgive divine and so like
41:22
forgiving yourself, but in order to forgive you have to put it
41:25
all on the table of like. Name it.
41:28
You gotta name it. This is.
41:30
This was bad. You know, yeah.
41:35
So OK, so you kind of have had a few life altering professional
41:41
altering awakenings and you're you're learning and and so OK,
41:46
I'll let you kind of continue on.
41:49
When you look back, what comes next in that part of the story?
41:53
Of your story, what comes next is, you know, I mean, God
41:58
redeemed everything he gave me. They, they ran the company out
42:02
of business in over 4 years. And so the, my former landlord
42:07
called me and said, would you come back to Washington and help
42:09
these authors that are now orphaned?
42:12
They don't have a publisher. So I did that and I ended up
42:17
becoming a pastor's wife, which was not on my radar, but it was,
42:22
you know, God just redeemed that my husband, my former husband,
42:27
who I did go back and repent to and said I was wrong.
42:30
I never should have stayed in that thing because it was, it
42:34
was all it just destroyed our marriage and he had already
42:38
remarried. So was there wasn't some
42:39
anything I could do about, you know, redeeming that
42:43
relationship, but I repented to him and admitted I was wrong.
42:47
And so we're on it. We have a great relationship
42:49
now. But so I got married and started
42:54
Redemption Press and for the next 5 or 6 years, it's just
42:59
everything was amazing and beautiful and wonderful and, but
43:03
I mean, lots of ups and downs just starting a new business
43:07
like that. But one thing that happened,
43:10
that was just kind of another opportunity for me to grow.
43:16
And that was when my husband initiated A merger because he
43:22
founded the church that he was in that he'd, he'd been
43:25
shepherding that flock for almost 40 years.
43:29
And so he brought in a younger pastor and his wife and started
43:35
the process of kind of, you know, each one would preach
43:40
every other weekend. And so they were Co pastoring
43:43
and then they moved into the position of actually moving
43:47
toward becoming a new church, a new entity.
43:51
And then, you know, that would give him maybe a five years to
43:56
kind of slowly back off and be able to retire.
44:04
And just to say it in one sentence, what was a great idea
44:10
and was a huge blessing to the smaller church that came in
44:16
because they got they ended up with a $6 million building as
44:20
part of the merger. But you know, once the vote was
44:25
taken and it was done, it just turned into a very painful
44:29
ousting that kind of shoved him out before he was ready And
44:35
before what it it was not honorable.
44:39
And so it took me about two years of saying, I forgive them
44:46
every night. I didn't want to go to bed angry
44:48
because the scripture says be angry, but do not sin.
44:53
Do not go to bed on your anger to give the enemy a foothold.
44:59
So I knew I knew I couldn't do that.
45:03
So every night I'm like, OK, Lord, I forgive them.
45:05
I forgive them, but just because I said it, it really didn't
45:11
take. Yeah.
45:12
And so about a year. Yeah.
45:15
And I'm like, I'm really trying here, but you know, I'm lying,
45:19
right? Because I'm crying.
45:20
I'm praying. And he's like, I'm like, this is
45:22
not honest, but I'm trying. Yeah, yeah.
45:26
So what happened a year, like a year and a half ago?
45:30
I'm like begging God, my God, there's a scripture that says if
45:34
you don't forgive from the heart, God won't forgive you.
45:40
And I'm like, OK, how do I do that?
45:43
Lord? How do I forgive from my heart?
45:45
Because I'm saying the words I'm saying I choose to forgive, but
45:50
it's not. I mean, every time something
45:52
happens, it's back again. And I have this righteous
45:55
indignation that is, you know, crazy.
45:58
And so all of a sudden, I just sensed the Scripture that I
46:06
hadn't thought of in a while that says your battle is not
46:09
with flesh and blood. Like, OK, tell me more, God,
46:16
what? What do I need to see here?
46:18
And he reminded me that the house that this young pastor and
46:24
his wife bought like 12 years earlier was a house in this town
46:30
where a bunch of guys lived who were part of the Christian cult
46:37
that took everything from me. And I'm like, OK, that's just
46:41
too weird. Like, that's just, OK,
46:44
Something, something not right here.
46:46
And so I'm like, Lord, OK, what is this?
46:50
So I started just kind of remembering, reflecting, OK,
46:55
what was it like when I got booted?
46:58
Because I did. And then what it what was what
47:02
happened when my husband got booted?
47:04
And the first thing I looked at was the minute my publishing
47:08
company went into their name, they cut my pay in half with no
47:12
notice when the congregation voted and they did the ousting.
47:20
Well, no, before the ousting, that congregation voted and it
47:25
was approved. They cut his pay in half with no
47:29
notice. So I'm looking at that going,
47:33
OK, that's just spooky, but OK, what else?
47:37
God. And then they he reminded the
47:40
Lord reminded me how they kind of diminished my authority to
47:45
the point where I was working for minimum wage.
47:49
I was cleaning bathrooms. And of course, I'm like quoting
47:52
these scriptures that they gave me.
47:54
No discipline is pleasant at the time, but we learn from it.
47:59
And so I'm like logging myself, cleaning the bathrooms and, and
48:03
taking out the trash and, you know, making no money.
48:06
And while I'm like, still the founder of the company, OK,
48:13
well, OK, so then they said, well, you only get to preach a
48:17
couple times a year, and you can take care of the senior citizens
48:22
every other week. You can kind of meet with them
48:23
for lunch. I'm like, OK, that's the same
48:27
thing. And then, you know, the third
48:31
thing was another thing that was just like exactly the same
48:36
agenda. And I'm like, Lord, OK, I see
48:43
it. The same spirit that was
48:46
controlling the wolf was controlling the pastor and the
48:52
elder board. And I had to just say, you know
48:56
what? I was duped by that very same
48:59
influence. So if I could be duped by it,
49:04
how can I hold it against them for being duped by it?
49:06
And it was like, OK, OK, I can forgive them.
49:11
When you see. There, but by the grace of God,
49:14
go I right. If you see it as something, a
49:18
spirit overtaking them, like literally because you felt it's
49:24
a it's like recognizing the humanity in another person that
49:28
they can be taken over. And I'm just now learning about
49:31
all this where I'm like, Oh, yeah, this is if this is a real
49:35
thing, and I think it is, then this, like, changes how I look
49:37
at everything. Yeah.
49:39
It's not just bad behavior. It's like, yeah, it's way beyond
49:44
that. And but to see that, OK, so I
49:47
see that I go, OK, God, I can forgive them from my heart now.
49:53
And these and these words came to me.
49:57
You cannot resist what you do not recognize.
50:04
And I didn't wreck, I mean, all two years, I'm not recognizing
50:09
what's at play here. And so I'm not resisting it.
50:13
I'm just being black, just battered by this situation.
50:20
And so that is that actually is the subtitle of my latest book.
50:25
It's no longer hidden. The enemy is no longer hidden.
50:29
You cannot resist what you do not recognize.
50:33
And that is a remake of that book we did in the 90s about
50:38
guerrilla warfare and how it's just the way Satan operates now.
50:43
Is that a full circle or what I mean?
50:46
Talk about I that phrase. We're going to have to clip that
50:51
because it's like you cannot, if someone's like, how can I resist
50:55
it? It's like, have you actually
50:57
look, do you actually know what's going on?
51:00
Like what is? What are you facing?
51:04
And what's the narrative in your head?
51:06
What is the enemy whispering to you that you are not taking
51:11
captive and saying no, that's not true because the word says
51:17
what you know? Yes, now if someone is new to
51:25
this and is like oh man, this is I want to know more when you say
51:29
the enemy and when you say the like telling these lies.
51:35
It. It can sound like your own
51:37
thoughts. Am I correct?
51:39
Right. And absolutely it can sound like
51:42
or. You think it's God?
51:43
Yes, you do and when and whenever it is like urgent, like
51:48
you have to do this now and you know just that is usually indica
51:55
indicatory of that's the enemy, because God comes with peace.
52:01
He's peaceful when he tells you here, this is your next step.
52:06
The enemy is agitated. He wants you to be anxious and
52:09
agitated. And so that's where you have to
52:13
just say, Lord, will you please help me have the discernment?
52:17
I need to recognize when something is the enemy and when
52:23
it's God or it's me or it's my own voice.
52:26
I mean, we have to discern all three.
52:31
Well, with that, again, I have a feeling we might be able to have
52:37
another conversation in the future.
52:40
Maybe we'll just talk about specific topics.
52:43
And you've got so much wisdom. And again, everybody check out
52:47
the show notes. Athena, thank you so much.
52:50
As a podcast host, as a believer, as a fellow human
52:56
being, I, I appreciate and I'm grateful that our paths have
53:00
crossed 'cause I know that I'm going to learn a lot from you
53:03
and my listeners are for sure. So with that, everybody, we are
53:08
gonna sign off and take care. Be well.