Latest / The Restaurant Guys / Hayman’s Gin: Tradition and Revival | James Hayman

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Hayman’s Gin: Tradition and Revival | James Hayman · The Restaurant Guys

• 0:42
  Speaker 53: Hello everybody, and welcome.
• 0:43
  Speaker 53: You are listening to The Restaurant Guys.
• 0:45
  Speaker 53: I'm Mark Pascal.
• 0:46
  Speaker 53: I'm here with Francis Schott.
• 0:48
  Speaker 53: Together we own Stage Left and Capitol Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
• 0:52
  Speaker 53: We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life.
• 0:55
  Speaker 54: So today's guest is gonna be James Hayman, master distiller at Hayman's Gin.
• 0:59
  Speaker 54: Fifth generation, been making gin for a long time in London.
• 1:04
  Speaker 54: We'll go to our interview with him that we recorded at BCB in Brooklyn.
• 1:08
  Speaker 54: That's Bar Convent Brooklyn, which has become one of the most important spirits, cocktail, beverage conventions in the world every year in Brooklyn.
• 1:17
  Speaker 54: You should go if you haven't gone.
• 1:19
  Speaker 53: Well, I love how it brings bartenders together, right?
• 1:23
  Speaker 53: And when bartenders get together, A, shenanigans.
• 1:28
  Speaker 53: But B- We
• 1:29
  Speaker 54: shenant, we shenant
• 1:30
  Speaker 53: but B, lots of collaboration and lots of people getting together and talking.
• 1:36
  Speaker 53: And sometimes that only happens over the bar in other places, and at these events there's a lot of collaboration.
• 1:43
  Speaker 53: There's a lot of reconnecting with people.
• 1:44
  Speaker 54: You know, you know what's funny?
• 1:45
  Speaker 54: I really did see this year at, at BCB, as I- we do see at Tales of the Cocktail- Mm-hmm and we'll be, we'll be going to Tales of the Cocktail next week and- Next
• 1:53
  Speaker 53: week.
• 1:53
  Speaker 53: See us at Tales of the Cocktail.
• 1:55
  Speaker 53: We're doing a live show.
• 1:56
  Speaker 54: The beef steak we're gonna be doing down there.
• 1:57
  Speaker 54: At a
• 1:57
  Speaker 53: beef steak, correct.
• 1:58
  Speaker 54: Yeah, so if you're a regular there's an announcement about that, how maybe you can join us.
• 2:01
  Speaker 54: But the thing about these things that I really am enjoying, and I would say the two most important conferences in America are BCB and-
• 2:09
  Speaker 53: For cocktails sure- uh,
• 2:09
  Speaker 54: and Tales for bartenders.
• 2:10
  Speaker 54: But I was also up at Dr- Rochester Cocktail Revival- Mm-hmm is great, and there's stuff on the West Coast that's great as well.
• 2:16
  Speaker 54: But what I'm seeing happen more and more- is I'm seeing producers and bartenders and bar managers and bar owners, media, but more and more I'm seeing consumers there.
• 2:32
  Speaker 53: Mm-hmm.
• 2:32
  Speaker 54: And they're going to get...
• 2:33
  Speaker 54: Like, people who aren't necessarily in the bar industry.
• 2:36
  Speaker 53: Yeah, but super interested consumers.
• 2:37
  Speaker 53: It's what would've been the blogger of 20 years ago.
• 2:40
  Speaker 53: Yeah.
• 2:41
  Speaker 53: It's still the person who really is into the whole culture.
• 2:44
  Speaker 54: I think there are two reasons that you're seeing that more and more.
• 2:46
  Speaker 54: Number one, so at Tales of the Cocktail years ago, 20 years ago you go to Tales of the Cocktail- Yeah and we're like,"I'm getting out of there Friday night'cause that's when all the yahoos are coming in from wherever.""And they're gonna tear the place apart," right?
• 2:57
  Speaker 54: Yeah.
• 2:57
  Speaker 54: And, and it was consumers, but it wasn't like,"Oh good, it'll be more consumers." Mm-hmm.
• 3:02
  Speaker 54: It'd be like,"Oh my God, people coming here to get drunk as they can." And that's really changed I think.
• 3:06
  Speaker 54: I think the people who c- seek this stuff out are looking to learn the story and meet the producer of the gin or the vodka.
• 3:15
  Speaker 54: And e- I don't know, I, I think the spirit of the whole thing is, is tremendously better.
• 3:19
  Speaker 54: I get it.
• 3:19
  Speaker 54: The
• 3:19
  Speaker 53: spirit of the whole thing.
• 3:20
  Speaker 53: Ah,
• 3:20
  Speaker 54: I get it, I get it.
• 3:21
  Speaker 54: Yeah, no, I...
• 3:22
  Speaker 54: So I really enjoy it and I enjoyed being there and hearing the stories.
• 3:26
  Speaker 54: I think why you listen to this podcast is we kinda have the context to give you the story in a, in a bite-sized piece and give you the wherewithal to find the rest of the story and to find the most interesting and authentic stories.
• 3:38
  Speaker 54: But you know, the real people are there.
• 3:39
  Speaker 54: Lisa Laird was there for Laird's Apple Jacks.
• 3:41
  Speaker 54: The, the people who invented or were the distillers of various whiskeys were there, and there's time to have a conversation with them.
• 3:49
  Speaker 53: Yeah, but even more than that, you're reconnecting with people who you haven't seen in a long time.
• 3:54
  Speaker 53: Yeah,
• 3:54
  Speaker 54: yeah.
• 3:55
  Speaker 53: And for us, and I think for a lot of people, what you're doing at BCB or Tales even, is setting up another time where you could go out to dinner.
• 4:04
  Speaker 54: Yeah.
• 4:04
  Speaker 53: Where you could go out to lunch.
• 4:05
  Speaker 53: And we do that at both Tales and BCB, but I'm saying after you reconnect with somebody you're like,"Hey, you know what?
• 4:11
  Speaker 53: We haven't had dinner in nine months.
• 4:13
  Speaker 53: Uh, Souther Teague, let's go out for some oysters tonight." You know, those kinds of things happen in those places where if you're not bumping into each other someplace- Yeah they're, they're not gonna happen.
• 4:24
  Speaker 54: Well, I think that's true of the industry, but w- what I also see there is often we'll be there and you'll be talking to somebody and they'll be like,"Okay, what's the new thing you're doing?" Mm-hmm.
• 4:32
  Speaker 54: And if you're there, you get to talk about it and you get to taste it, and you get to be with the person who made it.
• 4:37
  Speaker 54: But also if you're just a consumer walking in, people are super friendly about like,"Okay, what's Sloe Gin?" Mm-hmm.
• 4:44
  Speaker 54: "Okay, what is this s- spirit I never heard of?" And you're gonna be talking with...
• 4:49
  Speaker 54: Yeah, some big corporations are there, but the brand ambassadors do a great job.
• 4:53
  Speaker 54: Yeah.
• 4:53
  Speaker 54: And the, the ambassadors are there not as a salesperson.
• 4:56
  Speaker 54: And I think brand ambassadors get a bad rap sometimes, but at BCB they're there to really be an ambassador and tell you the story of it.
• 5:06
  Speaker 54: Now look, there's some bullshit spirits out there, but there's so many people making real stuff and if you walk in and you're a consumer and you're like,"Hey, what is this?" They will welcome you into their world and you can see if you like it
• 5:18
  Speaker 53: And one of the coolest corners of BCB, right next to Hayman's, was House Alpenz, and they have some of the coolest spirits and coolest mixing ingredients to make really interesting cocktails.
• 5:32
  Speaker 53: And they were tucked away in this little corner of, of BCB.
• 5:36
  Speaker 53: But I will tell you, I saw more of the cocktail intelligentsia in that little corner than I did everywhere else in the whole show.
• 5:46
  Speaker 54: Well, Alpenz brings in some of the most interesting, like Genepy, and if you're a real dork, you wanna go seek out House Alpenz.
• 5:52
  Speaker 54: Yeah.
• 5:52
  Speaker 54: And you'll find the people there who've worked there for a long time, including Hayman's.
• 5:54
  Speaker 54: Mm-hmm.
• 5:55
  Speaker 54: Which brings in gin, and sloe gin, and Old Tom gin.
• 5:58
  Speaker 54: And, uh, we got to talk with a member of the Hayman's family, who's been making gin for,
• 6:02
  Speaker 53: five
• 6:02
  Speaker 54: generations.
• 6:03
  Speaker 54: Geez, that's crazy.
• 6:03
  Speaker 54: It's
• 6:04
  Speaker 53: a long time.
• 6:04
  Speaker 54: The other thing about, you said it's, it's still somewhat professional, the really interesting people.
• 6:07
  Speaker 54: Mm-hmm.
• 6:08
  Speaker 54: I think one of the things that's changed is these things happen during the week, and it, before COVID, you needed to be able to take a Thursday off.
• 6:16
  Speaker 54: You still need to be able to take whatever day of the week off- Mm-hmm the, the conference is.
• 6:21
  Speaker 54: But a lot of people work from home and have a lot more flexibility in their schedule, and can do that more readily than
• 6:27
  Speaker 53: prior to COVID.
• 6:27
  Speaker 53: Well, you also have a, there was a huge concentration of Brooklyn, New York, Long Island, New Jersey- Sure, sure bartenders at this particular event.
• 6:37
  Speaker 54: Yeah.
• 6:37
  Speaker 53: Because they could go for the day and go to work if they needed to.
• 6:41
  Speaker 54: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:42
  Speaker 53: Right?
• 6:43
  Speaker 53: You could go
• 6:43
  Speaker 54: to, you could be- Nobody goes to, nobody goes to work
• 6:44
  Speaker 53: after they go to the conference you could be, you could be behind...
• 6:45
  Speaker 53: That's not true.
• 6:46
  Speaker 53: There were some people who we saw at bars afterwards.
• 6:49
  Speaker 53: So at 6:00 at night you could go to your shift and, and still be covered.
• 6:54
  Speaker 53: Now, that makes for a long day.
• 6:55
  Speaker 53: You know, that's one of those things that happens, but I think you could do that.
• 6:59
  Speaker 54: I think you could do that.
• 7:01
  Speaker 54: I don't know about me.
• 7:02
  Speaker 54: so I think these cocktail conferences are a great resource for people now.
• 7:05
  Speaker 54: And I gotta tell you, they're a lot of fun.
• 7:06
  Speaker 54: Even I was up at Rochester Cocktail Renaissance.
• 7:09
  Speaker 54: Mm-hmm.
• 7:09
  Speaker 54: they are really a lot of fun.
• 7:10
  Speaker 54: Often when we go there, we're working.
• 7:12
  Speaker 54: Like, we're throwing a party and doing a podcast when we're, when we're down at Tales of the Cocktail.
• 7:16
  Speaker 54: We did an interview when we were at BCB.
• 7:20
  Speaker 54: But they're, uh, they're just awesome.
• 7:21
  Speaker 53: Well, it's fun to see that cocktails are reaching, the little fingers of cocktail, of the cocktail world are reaching throughout the country and throughout the world into tiny little towns, cities that you wouldn't necessarily think of when you think of cocktails, are now serving some pretty good cocktails.
• 9:06
  Speaker 53: And these conferences are part of the reason why.
• 9:08
  Speaker 54: And it's not just the cocktails, it's the people who are making these ingredients and these basic things, like gin.
• 9:14
  Speaker 54: So Hayman's has been around for a long, long time, and you get to meet the producers and- Mm-hmm the families, and that's what we're gonna do right now.
• 9:21
  Speaker 54: Stick with us.
• 9:22
  Speaker 54: We'll be back in just a moment with an interview with James Hayman from Bar Convent, Brooklyn 2026.
• 9:27
  Speaker 56: So here we are at BarCon Live Brooklyn.
• 9:29
  Speaker 56: We love coming to this show.
• 9:30
  Speaker 56: This one is closer to home than a lot of the ones we travel to, but people come and travel to us, and we are super thrilled that we've been able to grab, um, James Hayman from the show with real cocktails made with Hayman's gin in glassware.
• 9:42
  Speaker 56: Thanks for joining us.
• 9:43
  Speaker 56: Oh, my pleasure.
• 9:43
  Speaker 56: It's your show.
• 9:44
  Speaker 56: Yeah, here, here.
• 9:44
  Speaker 56: Nice to
• 9:44
  Speaker 57: see
• 9:45
  Speaker 58: you.
• 9:45
  Speaker 58: Gonna start with a clink, right?
• 9:47
  Speaker 57: Absolutely.
• 9:48
  Speaker 56: Wait.
• 9:48
  Speaker 56: Oh, there you go.
• 9:48
  Speaker 56: Oh, there we go.
• 9:49
  Speaker 56: Blackthorn cocktail, sloe gin, dry vermouth, uh, lemon.
• 9:53
  Speaker 58: Not to mention I was thirsty.
• 9:54
  Speaker 56: Mm.
• 9:54
  Speaker 56: Mm.
• 9:55
  Speaker 56: Tombola classic.
• 9:56
  Speaker 56: A Tombola classic.
• 9:57
  Speaker 56: Delicious.
• 9:57
  Speaker 56: All right.
• 9:57
  Speaker 56: So let me introduce...
• 9:58
  Speaker 56: First of all, this is really cool that you have real glassware- and here we are sitting at a real table, not little plastic things.
• 10:03
  Speaker 56: We'll be
• 10:03
  Speaker 58: drinking out of plastic through the rest of the day- Um- unless I steal this.
• 10:06
  Speaker 56: But here's the background.
• 10:06
  Speaker 56: The Hayman family, they began distilling in, what is it, 1863?
• 10:09
  Speaker 56: 1863.
• 10:10
  Speaker 56: So 163 years later, James Hayman, a fifth generation, still keeping it going in London.
• 10:16
  Speaker 56: They pioneered the style that we know now as London dry style gins.
• 10:20
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 10:20
  Speaker 56: All, that all came about because of them, and it evolved into that.
• 10:24
  Speaker 56: But they've also, in the cocktail era in the last 20 years, they've been pioneers in bringing back old tom gin as a style and sloe gin as a style.
• 10:33
  Speaker 56: Both of which Mark and I embraced immediately.
• 10:36
  Speaker 56: Uh, and in fact, my family, we used to make sloe gin.
• 10:38
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 10:39
  Speaker 56: Uh, my family's from n- in the north of Ireland.
• 10:41
  Speaker 56: Okay.
• 10:41
  Speaker 56: Family and friends would make it there.
• 10:43
  Speaker 56: Um, and so we're gonna explore what gin is today, your family's history, how it came to be all London dry from a bunch of different things and, and now how w- you're bringing back these historical recipes.
• 10:53
  Speaker 56: Welcome.
• 10:53
  Speaker 58: Sounds
• 10:54
  Speaker 57: good.
• 10:54
  Speaker 57: Thank you.
• 10:55
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 10:55
  Speaker 56: I'm
• 10:55
  Speaker 57: pleased to be
• 10:56
  Speaker 56: here.
• 10:56
  Speaker 56: So, so 163 years, that's a lot, man.
• 10:58
  Speaker 56: It is.
• 10:58
  Speaker 56: Uh, what's that like being a fifth generation?
• 11:01
  Speaker 56: You know- Did you always know you were gonna take over the family?
• 11:03
  Speaker 57: Um, I always had a real interest in, in the family business from an early age.
• 11:07
  Speaker 57: Um-
• 11:08
  Speaker 58: None of my children have an interest in the family
• 11:10
  Speaker 57: business.
• 11:10
  Speaker 57: Okay.
• 11:11
  Speaker 57: I have no
• 11:12
  Speaker 58: children.
• 11:12
  Speaker 58: From a, from a later age- Fair enough they're like,"No, you work too hard." Okay.
• 11:15
  Speaker 58: "It's stupid."
• 11:16
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 11:16
  Speaker 57: "A stupid business." No, fair enough.
• 11:17
  Speaker 57: So yeah, I was always interested and, um, always quite fascinated by it.
• 11:22
  Speaker 57: And, you know, some of my early memories were going up to the gin distillery.
• 11:25
  Speaker 57: Uh, and if you've been in a gin distillery when they, when you, when we're distilling gin, the, the aromas and the smells are- Yeah are fabulous.
• 11:30
  Speaker 57: It's all
• 11:30
  Speaker 56: about aromas, right?
• 11:31
  Speaker 57: It is.
• 11:32
  Speaker 57: It's
• 11:32
  Speaker 56: all
• 11:32
  Speaker 57: aromatics.
• 11:32
  Speaker 57: Um, yeah, I mean, there was something quite magical about going to the distillery.
• 11:35
  Speaker 57: You know, I was probably three, four years old, and it kind of stuck with me, and I just had an interest, and it developed from there really.
• 11:41
  Speaker 56: I'm, I'm gonna share with you a story that my father and I, very, very serious moment.
• 11:46
  Speaker 56: My f- my dad was my hero.
• 11:47
  Speaker 56: He was the fire chief in our small city where I grew up.
• 11:50
  Speaker 56: Okay.
• 11:50
  Speaker 56: And, um, I remember...
• 11:52
  Speaker 56: I kn- I think you had a, quite the opposite experience.
• 11:54
  Speaker 56: My father took me to the firehouse.
• 11:56
  Speaker 56: I must've been 11 years old, and maybe 12.
• 11:59
  Speaker 56: I wasn't doing too well in school.
• 12:01
  Speaker 56: And he brought me into, like, the headquarter station, which is two engine companies, the computer, the pole that the fireman comes down, all this equipment.
• 12:07
  Speaker 56: It was fascinating.
• 12:08
  Speaker 56: He said,"Son." My dad is in this uniform with the white hat, and he said,"Son."
• 12:13
  Speaker 58: It's chief.
• 12:13
  Speaker 58: Everybody works for him.
• 12:14
  Speaker 58: Yeah,
• 12:14
  Speaker 56: yeah.
• 12:14
  Speaker 56: And they call him chief.
• 12:15
  Speaker 56: "Hey, Chief." Hey, when I was a little kid they called me Little Chief.
• 12:17
  Speaker 56: Right?
• 12:18
  Speaker 56: He said,"Son." See all this?
• 12:21
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 12:22
  Speaker 56: None of it's mine, so you better start doing better well in school.
• 12:25
  Speaker 56: So, so you though, that was your family's distillery for over a century.
• 12:30
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 12:30
  Speaker 56: What's that like to grow up with that kind of, walk into that kind of history?
• 12:34
  Speaker 57: Do you know, I, I think it just is part of life.
• 12:36
  Speaker 57: I think sometimes, um, it was just how I grew up.
• 12:41
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 12:41
  Speaker 57: Mm-hmm.
• 12:41
  Speaker 57: It's, it's quite hard to explain really.
• 12:42
  Speaker 57: It's just that's what, that's like the- It's like the
• 12:44
  Speaker 56: house you grew up in.
• 12:45
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 12:45
  Speaker 57: It's like, you know, my, my dad went to work every day and he went to work in a gin distillery and, you know, we'd go on a holiday and my mum and my sister would probably go shopping and dad and I would go around bottle shops looking at bottles of gin.
• 12:56
  Speaker 57: I love that.
• 12:56
  Speaker 57: And those are my, my early memories, and it, it just kind of stuck.
• 12:59
  Speaker 57: It, it, it seemed like fun.
• 13:01
  Speaker 58: You know, my kids and I had the same experience with my father,'cause my father's an entrepreneur and owned different types of companies than restaurants.
• 13:08
  Speaker 58: Uh, and my kids I think felt the way I did- I was intimidated to mess it up, right?
• 13:15
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 13:15
  Speaker 58: I didn't wanna go into his business where he was very particular-
• 13:19
  Speaker 57: Yeah
• 13:19
  Speaker 58: and he did things a certain way, and I didn't wanna go in there and mess it up.
• 13:24
  Speaker 58: And there was a lot of pressure in that way.
• 13:26
  Speaker 58: And I worked for him for, for a time.
• 13:28
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 13:28
  Speaker 58: But that's wasn't what I wanted to do.
• 13:30
  Speaker 58: I didn't, I didn't- Yeah love it there because I felt like I didn't wanna let him down- Yeah when I was there.
• 13:36
  Speaker 58: How do you deal with that kind of pre-'cause it's family pressure, there's no question that- For sure, yeah you know, four, four generations ahead of you, you don't wanna mess up.
• 13:43
  Speaker 57: I think there's a number of things.
• 13:44
  Speaker 57: One, we're probably about evolution, so you know, we're not trying to change our gin.
• 13:48
  Speaker 57: Our gin was developed years ago, and for us it's about protecting the way we make our gin.
• 13:52
  Speaker 57: We still make it in London, we still make it over two days, which is why Hayman's works well in a martini, to get that full flavor.
• 13:59
  Speaker 57: Uh, the, the same family processes.
• 14:02
  Speaker 57: And I think I was probably quite fortunate, well, Miranda and I, my sister, were quite fortunate that when I first started, gin was a bit of a forgotten spirit.
• 14:09
  Speaker 57: Right.
• 14:10
  Speaker 57: Uh, you know, the, the serve wasn't so good.
• 14:10
  Speaker 57: So we've been really fortunate to be part of this sort of renaissance of gin.
• 14:14
  Speaker 57: So in some ways it's been like a reset, and we often say about a family business of a, you know, 160-plus years, many twists and turns along the way.
• 14:21
  Speaker 57: Mm.
• 14:21
  Speaker 57: You know, life throws a number of challenges.
• 14:23
  Speaker 57: You know, we've had quite a few the last 10 years or so.
• 14:26
  Speaker 58: I was about to say, 34 years we've had- Yeah we've had ups and downs and- Yeah challenges and turns and-
• 14:30
  Speaker 57: You know, you know, COVID most recently.
• 14:31
  Speaker 57: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:32
  Speaker 57: You know, in, in the UK we had a Brexit some 10 years ago.
• 14:35
  Speaker 57: You have to rethink how you operate, et cetera.
• 14:37
  Speaker 57: But Dad never puts under pressure, I think that was one thing.
• 14:40
  Speaker 57: I think it was always a case of it's always been kind of a gentle introduction to the business.
• 14:45
  Speaker 57: Adam's very- Might be a bastard child okay.
• 14:45
  Speaker 57: Not
• 14:47
  Speaker 56: his thing.
• 14:47
  Speaker 56: Well, so let's talk about, and, uh, we, I, there's so much we could spend the all afternoon here.
• 14:53
  Speaker 56: But let's talk about when your family started in the business, what was the state of gin?
• 14:57
  Speaker 56: It wasn't just- Yeah London dry gin.
• 14:58
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 14:59
  Speaker 56: It sort of became that- Yeah through the middle of the 20th century.
• 15:02
  Speaker 56: So what was it like when your family...
• 15:04
  Speaker 56: Wasn't everybody making gin in their backyard when your family started making gin?
• 15:07
  Speaker 56: Well, I,
• 15:07
  Speaker 57: I, I think there's, there's, there's a lot of unknowns about London gin, or it's not fully understood, because, um, you know, gin started being made in London in the 1700s, but at that time it was unrefined, inconsistent, probably pretty horrible is the reality.
• 15:19
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 15:20
  Speaker 57: And it would not make a good cocktail today.
• 15:22
  Speaker 57: Um, and things changed around the 1860s.
• 15:24
  Speaker 57: There were a number of things that happened.
• 15:26
  Speaker 57: Distillation techniques improved.
• 15:27
  Speaker 57: The coffee still was introduced in the 1830s.
• 15:30
  Speaker 57: Um, prior to 1861 gin was sold in a barrel, not in a bottle.
• 15:35
  Speaker 57: Uh, the 1861 Bottle Act changed that certainly from a British point of view.
• 15:39
  Speaker 57: Um-
• 15:39
  Speaker 56: Well, and so back then you had gin that was in a barrel, so that'd be a wood-affected gin and oxidized gin.
• 15:44
  Speaker 56: You had old tom gin.
• 15:45
  Speaker 56: You had-
• 15:45
  Speaker 57: O- old tom was the first style of London gin, so that was the, th- you know, that was what was, was made in, uh, London for the first era of London gin.
• 15:52
  Speaker 57: So
• 15:52
  Speaker 56: what makes an old tom an old tom?
• 15:53
  Speaker 56: Is it the sweetness?
• 15:55
  Speaker 57: Um, old tom is a botanical intensity.
• 15:57
  Speaker 57: So you put a lot more botanicals into a distillate, and then there is a small sweetness that is then added to it, a cane sugar that's added to it after distillation.
• 16:05
  Speaker 57: So- That's really the key differences today
• 16:08
  Well,
• 16:08
  Speaker 56: and Old Tom was around until the original cocktail era.
• 16:12
  Speaker 56: It was.
• 16:12
  Speaker 56: Yeah The, the Tom Collins was- Yeah originally made with Old Tom gin.
• 16:15
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 16:15
  Speaker 56: But by the time my parents were entertaining in the 1950s,'60s, and'70s, they were making Tom Collins with Canada Dry Tom Collins mix- Yeah and whatever dry gin they could find.
• 16:24
  Speaker 56: I'm ready
• 16:25
  Speaker 58: to bring the, the Old Tom Tom Collins back.
• 16:27
  Speaker 58: I
• 16:27
  Speaker 56: think it's- Oh, oh, we did that I think it's time.
• 16:28
  Speaker 56: Yeah Do you know we put that on the menu once years ago?
• 16:29
  Speaker 56: I, I
• 16:29
  Speaker 58: remember.
• 16:30
  Speaker 58: I think it's- Yeah it's ready, it's ready to- With your gin It
• 16:32
  Speaker 57: was, yeah.
• 16:33
  Speaker 57: I remember It's ready to
• 16:33
  Speaker 58: relight.
• 16:34
  Speaker 58: I agree.
• 16:34
  Speaker 57: Well, I, with, with gin, gin changed from the 1860s onwards.
• 16:37
  Speaker 57: The other thing was that my great-great-grandfather, also called James, James Burrough, he actually was the first London distiller to introduce, uh, citrus to gin.
• 16:45
  Speaker 57: So you know, with distillation techniques improving, going from, uh, a barrel, and the barrels would've been spent, used time and time again, so probably really didn't add much, anything else to it.
• 16:55
  Speaker 57: Gin came a lot more refined in that process, and probably more consistent.
• 16:59
  Speaker 57: Uh, which is, as you evolve sort of, you know, to the 1880s when really cocktails became very sort of more popular and some of the, you know, original cocktails were developed.
• 17:08
  Speaker 57: And I think, you know, at that time the relationship between gin and vermouth was formed.
• 17:12
  Speaker 57: And, you know, that's been timeless, still, still very, very popular today.
• 17:16
  Speaker 57: So yeah, that's sort of the, the history of gin.
• 17:18
  Speaker 57: I think, you know, there's 1860 was a really defining time for- So- for gin
• 17:22
  Speaker 56: so, so we get to the 1950s,'60s- Yeah,
• 17:24
  Speaker 57: yeah
• 17:25
  Speaker 56: 70s, and the only gin you can buy in America is a dry- Mm-hmm London-style gin.
• 17:30
  Speaker 56: There are no other types There are no, there's no other.
• 17:32
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 17:32
  Speaker 56: And even, uh, Tom Collins' are made with dry gins.
• 17:34
  Speaker 56: That's
• 17:34
  Speaker 57: right.
• 17:35
  Speaker 56: You did a thing that we cocktailians loved, is you were the first old tom gin-
• 17:41
  Speaker 57: Mm-hmm
• 17:42
  Speaker 56: to come back on the market.
• 17:43
  Speaker 56: How many years ago now?
• 17:44
  Speaker 56: About
• 17:44
  Speaker 57: 20 years now.
• 17:45
  Speaker 56: We, and we were- Yeah we got that first shipment.
• 17:46
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 17:47
  Speaker 56: I promise you.
• 17:47
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 17:47
  Speaker 56: No, it was- And it's delicious, just that little bit of sweetness.
• 17:50
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 17:51
  Speaker 56: Are the aromatics the same or are the, are the aromatics- It's,
• 17:53
  Speaker 57: it's-
• 17:53
  Speaker 56: more
• 17:54
  Speaker 57: intense, I mean the same 10 botanicals, but it does have a greater botanical flavor to it.
• 17:58
  Speaker 57: So you will get, compared to a London dry, you will get more, more, more flavor coming through.
• 18:03
  Speaker 57: So there's sort of two key differences from a London dry.
• 18:04
  Speaker 57: And, and
• 18:05
  Speaker 58: are you seeing people come back to the old tom gins a little bit?
• 18:07
  Speaker 58: I mean, I know it's still, you know, 100 to one, right?
• 18:10
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 18:10
  Speaker 57: I mean, we certainly did.
• 18:12
  Speaker 57: And, you know, I go,"Why did we bring old tom back?" Well, we had a number of bo- you know, vodka was the white spirit of choice.
• 18:17
  Speaker 57: Uh, gin had become a little bit forgotten.
• 18:19
  Speaker 57: You know, we talk about- Mm-hmm the lost generation of gin drinkers.
• 18:22
  Speaker 57: And, um, you know, bartenders were becoming more inquisitive, looking at old recipe books and going,"We just see old tom appear on every, every recipe book.
• 18:30
  Speaker 57: You know, how do we make a cocktail with old tom?" And, you know, being a s- family business, we can be fairly agile.
• 18:35
  Speaker 57: We're like,"Well, let's..." When we had a recipe, it's like,"Well, let's make a batch." And- So
• 18:39
  Speaker 56: when do you add the sweetness in your recipe?
• 18:40
  Speaker 56: A- Is it you make the gin and
• 18:43
  Speaker 57: then the
• 18:43
  Speaker 56: sweetness comes in at the end?
• 18:43
  Speaker 56: Af- after distillation.
• 18:43
  Speaker 56: Yeah, after distillation.
• 18:43
  Speaker 56: So why...
• 18:44
  Speaker 56: And, and here's something.
• 18:45
  Speaker 56: I got in a, in a heated discussion with another cocktail geek 20 years ago about this.
• 18:49
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 18:49
  Speaker 56: His point was,"Well, why not just use Hayman's and just put an extra dash of simple syrup in your
• 18:53
  Speaker 58: cocktail?" You know, you know what I love that you said?
• 18:54
  Speaker 56: What?
• 18:55
  Speaker 58: Got into a heated argument with another cocktail geek.
• 18:59
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 18:59
  Speaker 56: It was very-'Cause,'cause- a dorky day is
• 19:02
  Speaker 58: what it was.
• 19:02
  Speaker 58: 'Cause nobody but a cocktail geek-
• 19:03
  Speaker 56: Yeah
• 19:03
  Speaker 58: is gonna get in a heated argument with
• 19:04
  Speaker 56: you over that.
• 19:05
  Speaker 56: We did it over gin, though.
• 19:05
  Speaker 56: It didn't- It didn't come to fisticuffs, I promise.
• 19:08
  Speaker 56: But he said,"Well, why not just use the regular gin and add a little more simple syrup?" And it's not the same.
• 19:12
  Speaker 56: It's not the same.
• 19:13
  Speaker 56: Well, you,
• 19:13
  Speaker 57: you, you lose out on the, the flavor profile because, you know, as I said, the same 10 botanicals, but just if we put one handful of juniper in for a London dry, we put two in for an old tom.
• 19:22
  Speaker 56: That was my question.
• 19:23
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 19:23
  Speaker 56: See, I knew it wasn't just- Yeah the sweetness.
• 19:25
  Speaker 56: That's
• 19:25
  Speaker 57: amazing.
• 19:26
  Speaker 57: And a, a lot of people don't always understand that, uh, but that is a, that's a key part of it.
• 19:30
  Speaker 57: So you could do.
• 19:31
  Speaker 57: You could, you could take a dry gin and add, you know, it's, um...
• 19:34
  Speaker 57: But does it, is it, is it a real cocktail with how it used to be able?
• 19:37
  Speaker 57: No, it's not, so.
• 19:38
  Speaker 56: And you put it in after the, after the re di- Yeah distillation with the- Yeah.
• 19:41
  Speaker 56: All right.
• 19:41
  Speaker 56: So Mark and I really wanna talk about today sloe gin.
• 19:44
  Speaker 56: Mm-hmm.
• 19:45
  Speaker 56: So the drink- Yeah we're having is we're having Tom Bullock's wonderful book.
• 19:48
  Speaker 56: It's called The Blackthorn.
• 19:50
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 19:50
  Speaker 58: Well, he and I are having it.
• 19:51
  Speaker 58: You've pretty much finished yours.
• 19:52
  Speaker 56: I'm mo- I'm a t- I need more Non-Alcohol than you are.
• 19:55
  Speaker 56: So, uh, it's an ounce and a half each of, uh, sloe gin, Hayman's- Yeah sloe gin and, uh, dry vermouth.
• 20:01
  Speaker 56: Yep.
• 20:01
  Speaker 56: And then- We used the
• 20:02
  Speaker 58: Cocchi dry today.
• 20:03
  Speaker 56: We used the Cocchi dry today.
• 20:04
  Speaker 56: And I, I also, I, I, we like Dolan Dry as well.
• 20:06
  Speaker 56: Mm-hmm.
• 20:07
  Speaker 56: Uh, no sweetness in the vermouth.
• 20:08
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 20:09
  Speaker 56: And, um, half an ounce of lemon juice.
• 20:11
  Speaker 56: Lemon juice.
• 20:12
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 20:12
  Speaker 56: Shake.
• 20:13
  Speaker 56: Then strain it out into a cocktail glass and, and bitters on top.
• 20:16
  Speaker 56: Fantastic drink It is, yes And Tom Bullock, gotta remember he's one of the few African American bartenders who has a pre-prohibition cocktail book, and everything in that book is fricking amazing.
• 20:24
  Speaker 56: You look at the book, you're like,"This is gonna be junk.
• 20:26
  Speaker 56: There's no backstory.
• 20:27
  Speaker 56: There's no..." Yeah.
• 20:28
  Speaker 56: 75% of the drinks in that book are amazing.
• 20:30
  Speaker 56: Okay, so sloe gin.
• 20:31
  Speaker 56: Mark, what's your first encounter of sloe
• 20:35
  Speaker 58: gin?
• 20:35
  Speaker 58: A Red Death.
• 20:36
  Speaker 56: The Red
• 20:39
  Speaker 58: Death.
• 20:39
  Speaker 58: 1983.
• 20:39
  Speaker 56: Hold on.
• 20:39
  Speaker 56: Let's see if I can do this.
• 20:40
  Speaker 56: Oh, I can't do it.
• 20:41
  Speaker 56: Sloe gin, Southern Comfort, Amaretto, and orange juice.
• 20:43
  Speaker 56: Yes.
• 20:43
  Speaker 56: Okay.
• 20:44
  Speaker 56: Yes.
• 20:44
  Speaker 56: Like
• 20:44
  Speaker 58: grenadine.
• 20:45
  Speaker 56: Uh, no.
• 20:46
  Speaker 58: Grenadine.
• 20:46
  Speaker 58: You had to put grenadine in it
• 20:47
  Speaker 56: to make it even redder.
• 20:47
  Speaker 56: No, you, you, you got it wrong.
• 20:48
  Speaker 56: You may have- You gotta make it
• 20:49
  Speaker 58: even redder
• 20:50
  Speaker 56: I remember bartenders back in the day to make one of those drinks, you could pick up three, three bottles in each hand and, and make them really quickly.
• 20:55
  Speaker 56: Wait, how about this one?
• 20:55
  Speaker 56: A Slow Comfortable Screw Up Against The Wall.
• 20:57
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 20:58
  Speaker 56: Sloe gin, Southern Comfort, Amaretto, orange juice, and the Harvey Wallbanger ingredient- Oh, right of Galliano.
• 21:03
  Speaker 56: Oh,
• 21:03
  Speaker 58: yeah.
• 21:04
  Speaker 56: And nobody really liked that drink, but they liked to say it.
• 21:06
  Speaker 56: Yes.
• 21:06
  Speaker 56: They wanted to order it, right?
• 21:07
  Speaker 58: There are a lot of drinks like that, that people like to say- So- but weren't very good
• 21:10
  Speaker 56: Leroux sloe gin, I remember tasting it and thinking,"That doesn't taste like anything.
• 21:14
  Speaker 56: It tastes like sugar." It was so...
• 21:15
  Speaker 56: Sloe gin, there w- I had never heard of, of real sloe gin.
• 21:20
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 21:20
  Speaker 56: I, I just...
• 21:21
  Speaker 56: I was like, it's a red$2 a bottle sugary thing- Yeah,
• 21:24
  Speaker 58: yeah
• 21:25
  Speaker 56: uh, that's there for no reason.
• 21:26
  Speaker 56: And then- I visited my friends just outside of Belfast, the Pedlos.
• 21:32
  Speaker 56: Lawrence and Anne-Marie, hello.
• 21:33
  Speaker 56: And we went picking sloe berries off the hedgerows, and then preparing sloe gin by the fireplace- Yeah...with the sugar and the gin and the s- and then the kids would kick the, the bottles around under the table to agitate them for a month.
• 21:46
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 21:46
  Speaker 56: And then they'd get put away, and you'd open the sloe gin on Christmas Eve.
• 21:50
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 21:50
  Speaker 56: I'm like,"Okay, this is not- Larue," right?
• 21:53
  Speaker 56: And so then I fell in love with sloe gin, and they, they give me a bottle, they gave me a bottle every year for a long time.
• 21:58
  Speaker 56: We can resurrect that, Lawrence and Anne-Marie, if you're listening.
• 22:01
  Speaker 56: And I, I didn't know what to do with it, but then I started making some of these classic cocktails with it.
• 22:04
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 22:04
  Speaker 56: And I was in love with it, but I couldn't get it-
• 22:07
  Speaker 58: It's really terrific.
• 22:07
  Speaker 56: I- I- I- But I couldn't get it commercially
• 22:09
  Speaker 58: I've had it.
• 22:09
  Speaker 58: It's terrific.
• 22:09
  Speaker 56: Oh, my, yeah, their stuff is great.
• 22:11
  Speaker 56: But then you introduced Hayman's-
• 22:13
  Speaker 58: Sloe
• 22:13
  Speaker 56: gin sloe gin.
• 22:14
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 22:14
  Speaker 56: What brought that about?
• 22:16
  Speaker 56: What's the history of sloe gin in your family, and what do you do with it?
• 22:19
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 22:19
  Speaker 58: How do you...
• 22:19
  Speaker 58: And I, I wanna know how you make it first.
• 22:21
  Speaker 58: Sure.
• 22:21
  Speaker 58: What's your process?
• 22:22
  Speaker 57: So, so our process-
• 22:24
  Speaker 58: And if it doesn't involve kids kicking it around under the table- I, I'm gonna think less-
• 22:27
  Speaker 57: Okay.
• 22:28
  Speaker 57: Well, uh,
• 22:29
  Speaker 56: so- Child labor laws and all.
• 22:31
  Speaker 57: So, I mean, sloe gin's a, you know, an historic style of gin and, and we, we were, you know, started making Old Tom again.
• 22:37
  Speaker 57: And I think when we did that, people were like,"Well, we'd like to have a proper sloe gin." And I'll come back to what happened to sloe gin,'cause that's quite an interesting point.
• 22:44
  Speaker 57: So in terms of how we make it, we use, um, sloe berries.
• 22:47
  Speaker 57: It's actually a plum.
• 22:48
  Speaker 57: It's grown on the blackthorn tree.
• 22:50
  Speaker 57: Um, it's, um, you know, 200 years ago a lot of farmland in the UK was divided with the blackthorn tree.
• 22:57
  Speaker 57: Um, and then they- And
• 22:58
  Speaker 56: by that you mean the, the blackthorn tree was in the hedges- Yeah.
• 23:01
  Speaker 56: Yeah that divided the fields.
• 23:02
  Speaker 56: That's right.
• 23:02
  Speaker 56: And so it wasn't there for the fruit, but you could kind of-
• 23:04
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 23:05
  Speaker 56: And it would like get- Yeah cut your hand reaching in to grab the- Exactly stuff in the middle of the hedge thorny.
• 23:09
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 23:09
  Speaker 56: Yeah, exactly.
• 23:10
  Speaker 57: They're not cultivated.
• 23:11
  Speaker 57: You know, they're, they're, they're grown in the wild.
• 23:12
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 23:12
  Speaker 57: We pick them in autumn time, so, uh, in the UK that's sort of late September, early October.
• 23:17
  Speaker 57: And then we, we, we put them with our Hayman's London Dry.
• 23:20
  Speaker 57: We do it at 60%, so 120 proof.
• 23:23
  Speaker 57: And it's a very natural process.
• 23:25
  Speaker 57: The power of the, the gin, that 60% punches through the skins, pulls out the flavor, pulls out the color.
• 23:30
  Speaker 56: So you don't, you don't pierce the skins at all?
• 23:32
  Speaker 56: We
• 23:32
  Speaker 57: don't.
• 23:32
  Speaker 57: They just
• 23:32
  Speaker 56: go in whole?
• 23:32
  Speaker 57: We don't.
• 23:33
  Speaker 57: And, and then we might give it a rouse once a month.
• 23:35
  Speaker 57: We make it in 1,000 liter batches, so not, not, not small batch.
• 23:37
  Speaker 57: Give it a rouse.
• 23:38
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 23:39
  Speaker 56: A little stir.
• 23:40
  Speaker 56: Sloe believes it's hard to kick around under the table though.
• 23:41
  Speaker 56: That's a big, that's a big, uh, under the table thing.
• 23:43
  Speaker 56: Um- How, how, how long do the sloe berries stay in the gin?
• 23:46
  Speaker 57: So it's, it's between three or four months.
• 23:48
  Speaker 57: If it's a little bit warmer, it's quicker.
• 23:49
  Speaker 57: Ah.
• 23:49
  Speaker 57: If it's colder, it takes a little bit longer.
• 23:51
  Speaker 57: And it's very much based on nose.
• 23:53
  Speaker 57: You know, we have a, we have a, um, a tasting room back in, obviously in the distillery.
• 23:57
  Speaker 57: And you know, when, when we get into that period, we'll like taste it every day or every couple of days, depending on, on where we feel it's got to.
• 24:03
  Speaker 57: And then we go,"That's right.
• 24:04
  Speaker 57: We're ready to, to go with it." So we extract it, obviously, uh, filter out the pulp, and we, we, we add it to, you know, Sloe Gin the cure.
• 24:10
  Speaker 57: So we, and we add the sugar to it.
• 24:11
  Speaker 57: And is it, is it
• 24:12
  Speaker 56: really...
• 24:12
  Speaker 56: How was it received?
• 24:13
  Speaker 56: I mean, we were thrilled, but how was it received in general?
• 24:15
  Speaker 57: I, I mean, I, I think Sloe Gin's a real crowd pleaser.
• 24:17
  Speaker 57: I think it's a delightful, um...
• 24:20
  Speaker 57: And I think it's so versatile.
• 24:21
  Speaker 57: I mean, back at home, traditionally people would put it in a hip flask, you know, if they were gonna go to a sporting event- Mm-hmm in winter, uh, or go shooting or whatever it might be.
• 24:29
  Speaker 57: They, they, they take it.
• 24:30
  Speaker 57: Dad and I enjoy watching rugby.
• 24:33
  Speaker 57: Um, and the rugby happens in the, in the colder months back at home.
• 24:36
  Speaker 57: So we take a, a hip flask still to this day.
• 24:38
  Speaker 57: Love it.
• 24:39
  Speaker 57: And whene- and whenever there's a try scored for our team, we, we have a shot.
• 24:42
  Speaker 57: I love
• 24:42
  Speaker 58: it.
• 24:43
  Speaker 58: My, my son was a collegiate rugby player.
• 24:45
  Speaker 58: Right, okay.
• 24:46
  Speaker 58: So, uh, I have yet to bring a flask of Sloe Gin, but, uh-
• 24:49
  Speaker 56: A
• 24:49
  Speaker 57: new
• 24:49
  Speaker 58: tradition it's, it's- A new tradition going on the list.
• 24:51
  Speaker 58: In the offing.
• 24:52
  Speaker 57: Right.
• 24:52
  Speaker 57: Well, I've, we, we have some flasks in distillery, so I'll give me your address and I'll, uh, I'll send you some.
• 24:56
  Speaker 57: So
• 24:56
  Speaker 56: here's what I find, though.
• 24:57
  Speaker 56: I find that a lot of American bartenders, they come and they'll try the Sloe Gin at a tasting.
• 25:03
  Speaker 56: They k- sort of like the con- but they don't know what to do with it.
• 25:05
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 25:05
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 25:05
  Speaker 56: So I'm a big fan of the Sloe Gin fizz, which can be a great drink.
• 25:08
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 25:08
  Speaker 58: I, I think honestly, it's, it is one of the undiscovered...
• 25:14
  Speaker 58: And it's not undiscovered.
• 25:15
  Speaker 58: People know it exists.
• 25:16
  Speaker 58: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:16
  Speaker 56: But
• 25:17
  Speaker 58: people are not using it-
• 25:18
  Speaker 56: Yeah
• 25:19
  Speaker 58: the way it needs to be used.
• 25:20
  Speaker 58: I mean, these, these hot bartenders, you're, you're, you're always looking for a cool new ingredient.
• 25:24
  Speaker 58: Go back to Sloe Gin.
• 25:25
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 25:26
  Speaker 56: I
• 25:26
  Speaker 58: mean, it's, it's fantastic.
• 25:28
  Speaker 56: So here's an interesting conversation- Yeah we had a little bit earlier.
• 25:31
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 25:31
  Speaker 56: London, like, New York was where cocktails were reborn.
• 25:35
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 25:35
  Speaker 56: There was Dale DeGroff, London- Yeah Aurora, and then the Rainbow Room, and then Stage Left, right?
• 25:39
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 25:39
  Speaker 56: So we've been doing this for a long time.
• 25:40
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 25:40
  Speaker 56: We're the oldest craft cocktail bar in America.
• 25:42
  Speaker 58: Oh, yeah
• 25:42
  Speaker 56: you- I've told you.
• 25:43
  Speaker 56: I've told you a million times.
• 25:44
  Speaker 56: I tell everyone all the time.
• 25:45
  Speaker 56: Yes, yes, yes.
• 25:45
  Speaker 56: I...
• 25:46
  Speaker 56: So cocktails took over America.
• 25:48
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 25:49
  Speaker 56: And then London kind of took the lead from New York for a while.
• 25:53
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 25:53
  Speaker 56: But we talked about the fact that I've been around the UK and- Yeah in the fancy hotels in London and the dedicated cocktail bars in London and major cities, that's where our cocktails were.
• 26:02
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 26:02
  Speaker 56: But, you know, in America, they're in the local pub now.
• 26:05
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 26:05
  Speaker 56: In America, you can't go to any restaurant that doesn't have a great cocktail bar.
• 26:07
  Speaker 56: Mm-hmm.
• 26:08
  Speaker 56: That's not the case as much- Any great
• 26:09
  Speaker 58: restaurant
• 26:10
  Speaker 56: any great restaurant.
• 26:11
  Speaker 57: No, I mean, I mean, one of the, one of the great stats, and it, it may be a few years old now, but in, in the UK, 80% of gin is consumed in a gin and tonic.
• 26:20
  Speaker 57: In America, it's 20%.
• 26:21
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 26:22
  Speaker 57: Wow.
• 26:22
  Speaker 57: So, and I think that's a, that, that sort of tells you the different drinking habits- But part of what's
• 26:26
  Speaker 58: happening in the United States that- Yeah uh, uh, I'm sorry, let's go back in time.
• 26:30
  Speaker 58: Part of what happened in the United States is we started adding corn syrup to all our sodas, and all our sodas- Yeah taste worse.
• 26:35
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 26:35
  Speaker 58: Now you have a resurgence in the United States where we're using real tonic again-
• 26:40
  Speaker 57: Yeah
• 26:40
  Speaker 58: and I, I think you may see that number move a little bit.
• 26:43
  Speaker 57: Oh, I- It,
• 26:44
  Speaker 58: it may won't go to 80
• 26:45
  Speaker 57: we already are.
• 26:45
  Speaker 57: I mean, cocktails are definitely becoming more popular.
• 26:47
  Speaker 57: I mean, f- from my own point of view, my, my go-to gin drink now is a Negroni.
• 26:52
  Speaker 57: It's not a gin and tonic.
• 26:53
  Speaker 57: Mm.
• 26:53
  Speaker 57: And that's probably changed in the last five years.
• 26:55
  Speaker 57: Mm-hmm.
• 26:55
  Speaker 57: But I think just going back to sloe gin and probably gin in general, and I think this is where, it, what's important is that, uh, the gin, gin category commercialized.
• 27:05
  Speaker 57: Uh, and you know, we talk about how did Old Tom become London Dry?
• 27:08
  Speaker 57: Well, it was cheaper to make London Dry than Old Tom.
• 27:10
  Speaker 56: Oh, I had
• 27:11
  Speaker 57: not heard that.
• 27:11
  Speaker 57: So, so, so, so less botanicals and, uh, less, you know, it didn't have the sugar.
• 27:16
  Speaker 57: So, uh, so that was...
• 27:18
  Speaker 57: And I think the same with sloe gin.
• 27:20
  Speaker 57: Sloe gin commercialized.
• 27:21
  Speaker 57: People found cheaper ways to make things or make product.
• 27:25
  Speaker 57: Um, a- and I think the sort of renaissance of the last 20 years has seen a return back to making things the right way- Probably the danger is that we're gonna see it happen again.
• 27:34
  Speaker 57: I mean, we, we're living in a time where costs are going up for, for producers.
• 27:38
  Speaker 57: You know, if you're a corporate or you've got, you know, investors who want a return, you're looking at how you manage your, y- how you, how you manage your business and your cost base.
• 27:49
  Speaker 58: Well, I, just to interrupt you for one second, we have investors who want a return, but it's just him and me.
• 27:54
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 27:54
  Speaker 56: Right.
• 27:54
  Speaker 56: So I,
• 27:54
  Speaker 57: I, I-
• 27:56
  Speaker 56: They're still waiting for that return, Mark
• 27:57
  Speaker 57: I, I, I'm, and, you know, from a family point of view, because we're a family business, uh, and, and my, my dad often says if, you know, if the original James came in our distillery today, he'd have to try our gin and go,"That's still my gin." So because we're family-owned- Mm-hmm we will not change how we make our gin, you know?
• 28:14
  Speaker 57: And that's, that's...
• 28:15
  Speaker 57: Dad often says we're guardians of the family business, and in some ways we're actually guardians of London gin today,'cause gin is not made in London that much now.
• 28:23
  Speaker 57: It's- Right you know, a lot of the- We know a lot of the big brands have moved to Scotland or other parts of the UK.
• 28:28
  Speaker 57: A lot of brands are actually, you know, some very well-known brands aren't made in the UK anymore.
• 28:32
  Speaker 57: They might, they might be a compound gin or they might take a distillate- Well,
• 28:34
  Speaker 56: and, and- and
• 28:35
  Speaker 57: ship it elsewhere.
• 28:36
  Speaker 56: And when you are a gin company that's owned by a family like you, and if you get bought by a multinational corporation, this board of directors, there are no Haymans involved with Haymans anymore.
• 28:44
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 28:45
  Speaker 56: It's just a name, it's just a label.
• 28:47
  Speaker 56: It's a fantasy.
• 28:47
  Speaker 56: Or, or even
• 28:48
  Speaker 58: one Hayman out of 40 people- Yeah on the board.
• 28:50
  Speaker 58: It's-
• 28:50
  Speaker 56: Yeah, and it's made in- Yeah, yeah and it's owned by a multinational corporation that has nothing to do with England, it has nothing to do with London.
• 28:55
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 28:55
  Speaker 56: Um, look, some good spirits are made that way, but this is a very different thing and a very special thing, and I think, I think you do your family proud.
• 29:03
  Speaker 56: And I want to bring about a positive note to what you said.
• 29:05
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 29:06
  Speaker 56: You said, you know, you have to look at your costs now that's maybe coming around again.
• 29:10
  Speaker 56: It's not, there's no doubt there's a contraction in the liquor market.
• 29:13
  Speaker 56: But that's'cause people are drinking less, and people have always said this in every contraction.
• 29:17
  Speaker 56: It's usually not been true, but it is true now.
• 29:19
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 29:20
  Speaker 56: The only people who are still drinking now, people are not drinking because,"I need a drink every night." But people are saying,"You know what?
• 29:26
  Speaker 56: We're gonna have a cocktail tonight."
• 29:27
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 29:28
  Speaker 56: gonna look- A drink for
• 29:28
  Speaker 58: taste
• 29:28
  Speaker 56: and they're, and for history and to be part of something real.
• 29:32
  Speaker 58: Yeah.
• 29:32
  Speaker 56: So I think that everyone who do, go, takes the cost-cutting route in this environment, it's a route to not existing anymore.
• 29:38
  Speaker 56: Mm-hmm.
• 29:38
  Speaker 58: I, I agree.
• 29:39
  Speaker 56: Yeah.
• 29:39
  Speaker 56: And, and it's people like you and your family, and us in our restaurant-
• 29:43
  Speaker 57: Yeah
• 29:43
  Speaker 56: who are gonna be, when people do go out to eat, they want something real.
• 29:46
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 29:47
  Speaker 57: I-
• 29:47
  Speaker 58: I, I think that's for sure.
• 29:48
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 29:49
  Speaker 58: I want you to talk just for a minute about Navy Strength gin- Sure because you're first, that's gonna come a confession.
• 29:55
  Speaker 58: So for a long time, I thought Navy Strength gin was at 57% alcohol because they wanted to store it in smaller containers on, uh, they needed- Right they needed the, the storage space.
• 30:06
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 30:07
  Speaker 58: But that story is absolutely amazing, if you would mi- wouldn't mind sharing it with us.
• 30:10
  Speaker 58: And is
• 30:11
  Speaker 57: it true?
• 30:12
  Speaker 57: Well, look, I mean, there are so many stories, I mean, even if you wanna take Old Tom, for example, or even Sloe gin, there are...
• 30:19
  Speaker 57: You know, if you look at, you know, history has a bit of mystery around it, and, you know, you can read, you can read a book from 100 years ago or two books from 100 years ago, and two people have a different opinion, and they can form an opinion today.
• 30:29
  Speaker 57: So we, we tend to focus more on does it still make a good drink today?
• 30:33
  Speaker 57: Right.
• 30:34
  Speaker 57: We don't actually supply the British Navy still, but we used to.
• 30:37
  Speaker 57: So the British Navy used to have a big port in London, um, in the Docklands, hence why it's called Hayman's Royal Dock Gin.
• 30:43
  Speaker 57: It's where the Olympic Games was in London- Mm-hmm in 2012, so it's, it's been commercialized now.
• 30:48
  Speaker 57: We used to supply the, the British, British Navy.
• 30:50
  Speaker 57: It was actually called Senior Service Gin back in those days.
• 30:53
  Speaker 57: Love it.
• 30:53
  Speaker 57: Uh, and we still have the old label for that, but we decided that may not be the, quite the right name to call it, um, um, when we, when we re- brought it back about- 10, 15 years ago.
• 31:03
  Speaker 57: Um, so why is it called Navy Strength?
• 31:06
  Speaker 57: Well, the, the story goes is that at 57%, if you spilled the gin on the gunpowder, you could still light the gunpowder.
• 31:12
  Speaker 57: And in effect, if you were going on a, on an expedition as part of the British, uh, it was probably pretty grim, let's be honest about that.
• 31:18
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 31:19
  Speaker 57: Um, and every day you'd either get a shot of gin or a shot of rum, and you'd have it with a squeeze of...
• 31:24
  Speaker 57: gin with a squeeze of citrus,'cause it would help you beat scurvy.
• 31:27
  Speaker 58: Mm-hmm.
• 31:27
  Speaker 57: And it would kind of lift morale.
• 31:29
  Speaker 57: Um, but if they had a little bit more- and they spilled it on the gunpowder, and suddenly the pirates came heading in your direction, you needed to be able to fire the, uh, be able to fire the gunpowder.
• 31:38
  Speaker 58: Gunpowder would still fire-
• 31:40
  Speaker 57: And that's, and, and, and that's, that's the story if you
• 31:42
  Speaker 58: spilled
• 31:42
  Speaker 56: your gin on it.
• 31:42
  Speaker 56: Chances of that being true are zero- are precisely zero.
• 31:45
  Speaker 56: Maybe.
• 31:46
  Speaker 56: But who cares?
• 31:46
  Speaker 56: Maybe.
• 31:46
  Speaker 56: It's a great story.
• 31:47
  Speaker 57: Maybe.
• 31:47
  Speaker 57: It's a lovely story.
• 31:48
  Speaker 57: But- And
• 31:48
  Speaker 56: look,
• 31:49
  Speaker 57: some people do challenge it, for sure.
• 31:50
  Speaker 57: But
• 31:50
  Speaker 56: what you do is great.
• 31:51
  Speaker 56: This- Thank you the products are terrific.
• 31:53
  Speaker 56: We're, we're big fans of you and your family.
• 31:55
  Speaker 56: And, uh, keep making this great gin.
• 31:56
  Speaker 57: Well, keep making great cocktails.
• 31:58
  Speaker 57: James- Thank you thanks for
• 31:58
  Speaker 58: this time with us at, uh, Bar Coven.
• 32:00
  Speaker 58: Well, my,
• 32:00
  Speaker 57: my pleasure.
• 32:01
  Speaker 57: And, uh, you know, if, if anybody is over in London and wants to come and see where we make our gin, we'd love to see anybody at the distillery.
• 32:07
  Speaker 57: So, uh, always have open doors.
• 32:09
  Speaker 58: We will see you there.
• 32:10
  Speaker 57: Yeah.
• 32:10
  Speaker 56: Great.
• 32:10
  Speaker 56: We'll put all that contact information up in the show notes, and we'll be back in just a minute
• 32:14
  I gotta tell you, that was so much fun Yeah, he's great.
• 32:17
  He's great.
• 32:18
  But you know what was even better than the interview we just did with him?
• 32:21
  The drinks we had while we were having that interview?
• 32:23
  Man, they made us a freezer Martinez- Oh, yeah before we started the show.
• 32:29
  It was the best Martinez I've ever had.
• 32:30
  Best freezer drink I've ever had.
• 32:32
  On location.
• 32:32
  On loca- Well, you know what happened.
• 32:34
  You stood next to the freezer, and they were like,"Here." You know?
• 32:37
  It was like they ma- took it out of the freezer and handed it to you.
• 32:39
  It, it was so freaking good.
• 32:40
  Yeah.
• 32:41
  So we're gonna get that recipe from James, and we're gonna post it with this show, and we're gonna tell you how to make the best freaking freezer Martinez I have ever had.
• 32:51
  But I...
• 32:52
  It was so good.
• 32:53
  Yeah, but the key is you have to have frozen glasses, frozen mixers, frozen beverage, and- Frozen bartender.
• 32:59
  You'd- Helps if your bartender's really cold they move, they move very slowly.
• 33:03
  Um, if you could have a reptile bartender, though, I think that would- We wouldn't be able to make it an alien.
• 33:06
  An alien.
• 33:07
  They never- No, they'd have to stop.
• 33:10
  I guess you can't have a reptile bartender.
• 33:12
  You cannot have a reptile- All right, fair enough frozen bartender.
• 33:14
  All right.
• 33:14
  So that's our drink tip of the day.
• 33:16
  No frozen drinks with reptile bartenders.
• 33:18
  No, but the thing about it is, if you're wondering what people are talking about, it's when it's so cold that the gin or vodka changes texture and becomes viscous.
• 33:28
  And having that served to you fresh, like run it over to you, it is more perishable than pasta a la minute.
• 33:35
  You know?
• 33:35
  It's like right there.
• 33:36
  And this was great.
• 33:37
  It's a ter- It's terrific.
• 33:38
  So you can make this at home.
• 33:39
  Just keep stuff in your freezer and then drink it while standing next to your freezer.
• 33:43
  we're gonna give you this recipe for the Martinez in our show notes today.
• 33:46
  We'll make sure that's posted for you so you can make one of these really cool, very cold drinks.
• 33:52
  And you should make it, of course, with Hayman's.
• 33:53
  If you've been listening to this show, hope you've enjoyed your time with us.
• 33:56
  I'm Francis Schacht.
• 33:57
  And I'm Mark Pascal.
• 33:58
  We are the Restaurant Guys.
• 33:59
  You can always find out more about us at restaurantguyspodcast.com.