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Should You Visit School During The Other Parent's Parenting TIme · SPLITUP

• 0:07
  Speaker: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal or psychological advice.
• 0:12
  Speaker: Listening does not create a professional relationship with a split up or any guests.
• 0:17
  Speaker: Launi and Robert are only licensed in the state of Arizona.
• 0:20
  Speaker: For legal or mental health concerns, please consult a licensed professional in your state.
• 0:25
  Speaker: Guest identities may be changed for privacy.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: All right, so today we're going to talk about should a parent visit their child at school during the other parent's parenting time.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: And I saw this question on Facebook and it kind of hit because this comes up all the time in our family law cases.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: It's this is just a recurring theme for sure.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: And so I wanted to put this question out there to Robert today and kind of get some information from him and his thoughts.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Because, you know, at first glance it kind of looks like a legal question.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: But you'll get more information as we discuss this today and kind of get Robert's input on what that might look like.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Because as Robert will, I know, agree because we talked about this earlier, is two families can engage in the exact same behavior and have completely different outcomes.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: So that's what we're going to address today with the school stuff.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: And we're going to take it a little bit further.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: So welcome back to the Split Up podcast.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: I'm Launi Sheldon, family law attorney.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: And just so that you know, um, I have been a mediator parenting coordinator before.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: And also, of course, I'm the co-founder of Split Up.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: But when we talk about these things, I don't do parenting coordinating anymore, but I did.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: And this was a very, very common theme.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: And I'm I'm interested to hear how Robert addresses this because I want to see if he does some of the same things I did during when I was a parenting coordinator.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: So go ahead, Robert.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: And I'm Robert DiCarlo.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: I'm a forensic psychologist in uh uh Arizona.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: I'm a custody evaluator and co-founder of Split Up.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: We are so glad you're here.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Launi, I'm so glad you found this topic on Facebook because it's certainly something that comes up in my evaluations and when I do therapeutic intervention.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Our goal here is always to help parents make decisions that help reduce conflict and keep children out of the middle whenever possible.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, let's let's talk about why this topic causes so much conflict.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds like it could be a simple question.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: People ask it all the time.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Um, sometimes some they're eating lunch together, one person's volunteering in the classroom, maybe it's attending a school assembly, um, you know, signing the child out early, things like that.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of issues that come up with school.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: And I, Robert, why is this so emotionally loaded?
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it's really because school occupies such a unique space in a child's life.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: It's one of the few places that truly belongs to them.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: So they're there for their learning, they're making their friends, they're discovering who they are independent of their parents or their households while they're building confidence and solving problems.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: So, really, school, as we know, is one of those very first environments where children begin developing that healthy sense of independence.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: So for care uh for parents who have a healthy co-parenting relationship, school usually stays that.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: It's a place to support the child's growth.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: But as you and I know, Launi, in some of these families we work with where there's these higher levels of conflict, school can slowly become a place that's really just another extension of their custody dispute.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Um, and so um, you know, that I think this is why it's so emotional.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the one thing, I mean, I don't think parents wake up in the morning thinking, you know, how can I interfere with my child's school day?
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: I just don't think that that's typically what they're thinking.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's not what they're thinking sometimes.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Um, but maybe they miss them, maybe they just want to spend more time with them and they they really don't feel like they're interfering with the other parents' parenting time.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: But the challenge is that, you know, loving your child and helping your child um don't always, you know, aren't always answered by the same behavior, I suppose.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: And that's why throughout today's conversation, we're gonna keep talking um and asking one question over and over.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: And it's not, is this parent good or is this parent bad, but how is this likely to affect the child?
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Because kids don't experience parenting plans the way the adults are viewing them and the way they're framing them in their minds.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: The kids are experiencing routines, they're experiencing predictability, emotional safety.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Those are the things that can either be strengthened or disrupted by the choices the parents are making.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: So I I think we come across this can I versus should I thing too?
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, it's a phrase that we keep coming back to, um and that I hear, you know, constantly that I talk to my kids, can or my clients, can you?
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, I suppose should you?
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: No.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Um you know, can I have lunch with my kid?
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Can I go to the stool?
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Can I just stop by the school and can I volunteer in the classroom during the other parents' parenting time?
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, can you right now there's nothing in the parenting plan that says you can't.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Should you?
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: You know, probably not.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Is it gonna piss off the other parent?
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Is it gonna cause problems?
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, I that that's where I'm at.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: There's I do think that there's a difference between can you and should you?
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love that distinction because those two questions come from really different places.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: The can I comes from more of an adult-centered question, like, am I allowed to do this, as you said, or do I have the right to do it?
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Will I get in trouble?
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: I think if you look at it from the should I side, that's the child-centered question.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: So, what will this experience be like for my kid?
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: How will this affect their school day?
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Will this support their emotional security?
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: And those two answers may not always be the same.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: I I think that um it's it's something that doesn't necessarily like have to violate a court order to be a poor parenting decision.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: And I, you know, we have this with our clients all the time.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: It's it's very fact-specific.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: And you and I had talked about that before, because in this situation, context matters.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: I I think it's it's really important for parents to understand that um the level of conflict, the parenting plan.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: You know, if there's a high conflict, I I I think you definitely need to look at adding something to that, um, to that parenting plan.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Because by the way, Robert, most of the parenting plans allow parents to go to the school for activities.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: So then you've got to start defining the activities.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: You know, well, is a is a is my child's friend's birthday an activity.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: It is my child's, you know, going up there and and doing a, I don't know, that special day where they talk about themselves, is that an activity?
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: So um I just clearly what matters most is what the child is experiencing.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: And if you really look at it from the child's day and the perspective of the child, you know, they're they're waking up in the morning, they have a routine, they get dressed most likely, they're going to school.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: They may be thinking in the background in their mind about a spelling test they have or a project that they're doing for science, what friends they're going to get to talk to, maybe it's PE recess, but they're totally in school mode.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: Um, and as you know, Launi, I have younger kids too, and you know, like school mornings are just chaos sometimes and they're going through their own thing.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: The parents are doing their thing to try to, you know, get them ready for school.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Then they're at school and suddenly a parent unexpectedly appears, unexpected to them because the parent doesn't usually show up at school typically.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Um, so now emotionally, they're switching into parent mode.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: They spend time together.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Uh the parent may leave, um, and they're kind of code switching.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: They have to then immediately switch back into, you know, maybe learning fractions or doing their reading comp.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Um, for some kids, that's going to present no problem at all.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: For others, especially children who might be already in high conflict homes, those emotional transitions can be unexpectedly and surprisingly difficult.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: So what if they say, but my child was so excited to see me.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: They love it when I visit.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Uh I wouldn't dispute that.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: They probably were excited.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: You know, children obviously love seeing their parents most of the time.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: That's not even the question.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Um, a child can run across the playground, they can throw their arms around mom or dad, they could have this really like wonderful lunch and feel surprised.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: They could even cry when that parent leaves and then struggle to concentrate for the rest of the afternoon.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: So both of those things can be true.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: That's one of the biggest themes we'll come back today.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: Children can genuinely enjoy seeing a parent, which we can apply to lots of different co-parenting and parenting scenarios, and they can still have that visit disrupt their emotions and their emotional regulation abilities.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, that's that's an important distinction.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: I think because um, you know, if we're measuring success by, was my child happy to see me, that, you know, we may miss what's kind of happening afterwards, after that parent leaves.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: And, you know, from the psychological lens as psychologists, we're often looking beyond the moment itself.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: So we're asking things like, what happened right after the visit?
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Or how did the child transition?
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Did their teacher notice a change?
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Um, were they maybe more emotional?
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Were they more distracted?
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Did they withdraw?
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Uh, were they worried about what would happen when they got home?
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: You know, children don't always tell us those things directly.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we see them through behavior and kind of what they're exhibiting externally.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about healthy families that do this all the time.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: First of all, in tact families, this isn't an issue, clearly.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: Um, but what about like divorced happy families?
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: So when you have that higher level of cooperation and co-parenting, um, healthy divorced families often exhibit tremendous flexibility.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: It could be, you know, one parent volunteers on field day, irrespective of whose parenting time it is, or maybe the other parent helps with a book fair on another time.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: Uh, maybe a parent shows up and eats lunch with the kid once a month, maybe that's part of their routine, or maybe just a nice surprise, or uh a parent shows up for a classroom holiday party or a birthday celebration.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: But typically everybody knows about it and nobody's feeling threatened or questioning it.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Nobody's interpreting it as a competition or, you know, what's the hidden agenda here?
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Because there frankly isn't one.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: The purpose is really simple.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: It's to support the child.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: And neither parent in that dynamic is questioning or challenging or reading into that.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: So I mean, I don't I don't want parents to to listen today and say, you know, or walk away thinking that we're saying don't ever visit the school.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: I I don't think that that's appropriate because I do think that there's times.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Um that's just that's not what we're saying.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: So don't come at us and say that's what we're saying.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Um, because I have seen healthy co-parents, you know, do this appropriately and um they're incredibly flexible and they communicate and they share information and you know, they attend the school events together.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they even sit next to each other, right?
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: And then um maybe the person says, Would it be okay if I had lunch with little Emma on Thursday?
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: And the other parent says, Of course.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Um and so then they move on with their day.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: So there's no drama, no suspicion, no scorekeeping.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: It's just the parents working together for a nice moment for the child.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: And, you know, when we were talking offline, um, you know, you said you personally probably wouldn't have to go have lunch with your kids during the other parents' parenting time, not because necessarily you think it's wrong, but because you simply don't feel you need to, and you're respecting the rhythm of that parenting schedule.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Um, but at the same time, if you wanted to have lunch with your kids and your co-parent knew exactly why and everyone understood the purpose, there probably wouldn't be any concern.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: And that is kind of what we would view as healthier co-parent.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: So we're not asking in those situations whose day is this?
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: They're asking what's best for our kid.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I I right, that's the distinction.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Um, it's uh it's a healthy co-parenting that's not measured by how many lunches someone has and um or the trust, you know, it's it it's measured by the trust uh in the other person's intentions.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: And I think that's a a big issue that that if there's problematic intentions, um, which Robert, we've both seen that.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Um if there's problematic intentions, then that's where definitely things have to probably stop.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: But they're not coming to us if they're getting along well.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: That's that's really the the face of it, right?
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Like we're not seeing all the people who do this perfectly every day.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Um it's we're seeing the the people who when the trust has been damaged and where that one person who has the trust can have the exact same behavior as somebody who doesn't have the trust, and all of a sudden there's a problem.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: And in I'll just clarify too, even for families that do it well but imperfectly, they have a process for repair if they make mistakes that don't lead them to people like us.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: So um it is something when you have that trust broken and that inflexibility.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: I frequently see that in custody evaluations.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: The behavior itself often isn't what predicts whether it's healthy, it's sort of this ongoing pattern, the intention, the surrounding circumstances.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Um, obviously, as I mentioned before, the emotional impact on the child.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: The exact same lunch visit can be completely appropriate in one family and then really highly concerning in another.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: And it can change across time.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: It could be appropriate at one time and not another based on the context, context, and circumstances.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: So that's why there's very few absolutes in these conversations.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Uh, we want to know more, we want to know the context, especially as evaluators.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: We want to know what's the precedent, what's been happening before this, and what happens afterwards, because again, that context is going to change the interpretation.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: So, really, it's the same behavior with a completely different meaning, right?
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: It's it's um if we just change one fact and imagine that every Tuesday during mom's parenting time, dad suddenly starts showing up at school.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: He eats lunch with a child, walks into class.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Uh, sometimes he tells the child how much he misses them.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Sometimes he asks, so what did you and your mom do this weekend?
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: And and maybe he brings a small gift.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Uh, maybe he tells the child, I'll see if I can come back next week.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: And now we're looking at something different.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're really looking at what could happen to be a big problem.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: And and in this situation, I do think we need more um information.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: What's the parenting schedule?
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: You know, just this is clearly mom's day, but does dad have time?
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Because why is dad wanting to come next week?
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Is he not seeing the kids?
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot of different um information that we would need, but again, same behavior um by one parent and a different parent could just could have totally different meanings.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it can be different.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: And I think one of the biggest, the biggest mistakes adults make in these situations is evaluating behavior in isolation, again, out of context.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Children are not experiencing these isolated events, they are recognizing patterns.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: So a single lunch probably isn't the issue, but a repeated pattern can be something else entirely.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: So the kid may be wondering in your example, should I eat with dad or should I eat with my friends?
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Or maybe another thought in their mind is, Mom, is mom gonna be upset?
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: What if dad comes and I don't want to leave my classmates?
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Am I hurting somebody's feelings?
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: So it's not now a focus on school, it's another environment where the child is managing adult relationships.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: And that is where we start having concerns when those things become a pattern and more importantly, a problematic pattern for the child's emotional well-being.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really think that's when the the courts get concerned and when like lawyers get a little bit in a snit or parenting coordinators uh if you have one.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Because clearly seeing your child is not inherently wrong.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: It it's just is this a repeated behavior that interferes with the child's routine?
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Does it place a child in the middle?
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Um are you repeatedly uh introducing uh yourself into the the other parent's parenting time?
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Are you are you sort of pushing in there?
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: And and Robert, you know, I I do want to talk about transitions at some point too today, when when you do this, because I think kids just have different hats, right, that they put on for each parent.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Um and and so I think that's a problem too.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: But like I don't think courts generally focus on a single lunch.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: It really needs to be a pattern.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: And and like you said, it you need to look at what happened before, what happened after, and what's going on all around the whole situation.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that context is really critical because that's where we begin understanding whether something is supporting the child or maybe serving an adult need above what the child is needing.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Um, so you know, something that comes up a lot that I think is worth discussing is uh the concept of enmeshment.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: And it's a word that's often misunderstood.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Um, and when we're talking about enmeshment versus say connecting with the child, so people hear the term enmeshment and they sometimes think that it's uh you know a term that means being close to your child.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: And that's not what we mean in a uh, you know, particularly from a psychological construct um when we're dealing with custody matters.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: So connection is healthy, um, affection is healthy, wanting to spend time with your child is healthy.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, these are sort of obvious things.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: Ameshment, though, happens when the emotional boundary between the parent and the child becomes blurred.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: So this is where the child, or I'm sorry, the parent begins relying on the child to meet their emotional needs that really should be met by other adults.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: So instead of helping the child become increasingly independent, um, you know, such as relying on teachers in that setting or other peers, the relationship begins pulling the child back towards that emotional dependence on that parent.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: So, Robert, uh let's say I'm in, oh, I don't know how to I don't know how to say it as a verb.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Like, let's say I'm I have an enmeshed relationship with my child.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Um, how can I tell?
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Like, how does a parent recognize the that difference like in themselves?
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: That is such a great question because I don't know that it's really straightforward to recognize, because in the parent's mind, they're often justifying it for some reason with some sort of rationale, you know, like I'm doing this because X, Y, or Z, but it's not usually sort of an internal reflection on themselves about doing something um improper or problematic.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: So, one question I would encourage parents to ask is if my child said they'd rather eat lunch with their friends today, would I genuinely be okay with that?
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Or would I feel rejected?
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Would I feel abandoned?
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Would I think my child doesn't love me anymore?
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: If that's where your mind goes or versions of that, it's definitely worth pausing and thinking about more.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: It's not to say that, you know, it's wrong to feel those things, but uh, because this lunch visit may no longer be, you know, primarily about the child's needs and maybe helping us regulate our own emotions, that's where we need to be a little bit critical as parents and and think on our on our motivations and intentions.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I I think during divorces and and split-ups, it doesn't have to be a divorce, um, but just a split-up where you're just kind of starting these two different parenting time um schedules.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I think that's hard for a parent to hear, right?
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Because they genuinely miss their kids.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: They they want to see their kids, uh, you know, especially where you've got someone who's been like a stay-at-home parent.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: They've been with their kids 24-7, and now they're week on, week off, or a five, two, two, five plan.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: They, you know, they may be struggling too.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Um, and so probably pretty difficult when they're genuinely missing their kids that way.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course they miss their kids, and that's totally understandable.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: And this is again where we're in a situation where both things can be true.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: You can deeply miss your child, and your kid could benefit from some uninterrupted time to, you know, focus on their friendships or participate in school in a way that, you know, kind of taps their teachers as their guiding person rather than the parent, and just really be a student and and nothing more.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: So those aren't competing ideas.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: They're both part of healthy development and adjustments that I think parents and kids and families need to make when considering these additional layers or dynamics.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: One thing I see in custody evaluations is that parents begin measuring the strength of their relationship by how frequently they can have access to their child, which is again totally understandable when you're going from maybe 80 to 100% of the time with your kids to 50 or maybe even less in some circumstances.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: So, you know, another lunch, another surprise visit, another early pickup, another reason to stop by the school, those can all be very alluring for a parent to kind of keep that connection.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: But secure attachment isn't built by, you know, this constant access.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: It's built by that emotional consistency.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: So kids don't need to know that you're gonna like, surprise, I'm here at school.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: They need to know that you'll reliably show up when you're supposed to.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: And I think that is where kids feel that healthy sense of attachment.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, you know, possibly an issue when the kids begin anticipating the visit, right?
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: That's that's something I don't know that the parents consider either.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, sometimes the issue isn't necessarily the visit itself, it's what happens before the visit.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, one thing that you could see over time, you know, more subtly is that kids, like you said, began, they they might start to anticipate the parent's arrival if they've made it sort of a pattern or a theme.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: So maybe they're looking towards the cafeteria door and they're wondering, is my parent coming?
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: Should I go sit somewhere where they might find me?
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: Or maybe like, what if I'm with my friends?
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Um, or as I mentioned earlier, you know, what if the other parent finds out?
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: So again, it's pulling the child away from being present at school.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: And now part of their attention is shifted towards managing that uncertainty and maybe doing a lot of managing of things that they're already aware of in the family dynamic, like is mom or dad gonna be angry that I spent more time with the other parent?
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: Well, and I I mean, I I feel so bad for kids that that go through that because I don't think that that's uncommon, you know, and and parents, even if you think that your kids aren't thinking that, they could be thinking that.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's it's not they don't want to get either parent in trouble and they want the ability to love both parents.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: So um I I just think um you know that it that it's important not to make your kids hide things.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Um if I find that out as a parenting coordinator, I'm I'm not gonna be happy.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Um if if you're telling your kids to hide something from the other parent, not gonna be happy.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, even if the other parent says, well, I may just, you know, I'm only gonna stay for 20 minutes, you know, psychologically, the child may have been thinking about that visit all morning and they're gonna worry about it all afternoon.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is is this another secret?
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Is this another thing that they need to worry about?
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: And we just need to not do that to the kids.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, such a good point, Launi.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: And I and I think it is an area that parents don't often consider when they engage in any particular behavior that relates to their kids in a two-household dynamic.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: As you mentioned, the visit may only be 20 minutes, but the emotional impact can last so much longer, you know, especially when they go back to the parent's house that they're staying with during that particular day.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: And should they tell their parent about it or worrying about whether the other parent already knew, or did my teacher notice?
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Again, we're taking something that should have been about um, you know, school-related issues, learning, reading, and turned it into another place where the child is again managing these adult emotions and adult level issues.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: And again, the reasons why context matters so much, right?
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Because in healthy co-parenting relationships, these aren't the questions that are coming up.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: You know, dad comes in for lunch, everyone knows about it, kid enjoys it, dad leaves, life goes on.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Um, the exact same behavior, but different emotional experience.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Um, and so you guys as parents, you need to know where you're at in this.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: You need to you need to know if you're the healthy co-parent, um, if you have a healthy co-parenting relationship or not.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Um I also I think Robert, it gets concerning when all of a sudden this starts looking like alienating behaviors and not just um not just a verbal coming in, right?
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Like just when school visits really aren't about the closeness, not about seeing the kid, not about having words with the kid, not you know, it's when it becomes more of a competition, um, when it becomes more of um when there's a different, I guess, purpose behind it, I think is a better way to say it.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Um and and when parents are doing it for a not good reason.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I mean this opens up like a whole other topic around parental alienation and alienating behavior.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: So when people hear the term alienated behavior, they often only think they they often view that as saying negative things about the other parent or disparaging the other parent.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: And sometimes, and oftentimes that's true, but it can also be strictly behavioral.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: So it could look like showing up unexpectedly or coming to school and bringing your kids gifts every week, or becoming the exciting interruption for the kid day in and day out at school, pulling the kids away from classmates, making yourself the center of every school event, um, you know, creating the impression that you're just always here and available to them, which communicates to the child sometimes, I'll come rescue you.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: So children don't have to hear those words.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: They often feel those messages through through the implication of the parent's behavior, which again could be intentional or could be unintentional alienating behavior.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and from a legal perspective, by the way, besides the fact that courts are now considering alienation alienating behavior as child abuse, um, but it that's another example of why courts generally look at the patterns as opposed to an isolated event.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: So um, like one lunch, not a big deal, doesn't concern anyone.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Um, especially if that parent didn't know, there's you know, uh it becomes a little more, I think, I think the intent becomes more clear when when the parent whose parenting time says, Hey, I don't want you coming to the school during my parenting time because I may want to go there and I don't want to see you, I don't want to run into you, whatever.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Um, I I think that's different than just the one off.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: And I think every case depends on the facts and the evidence and the parenting plan, by the way.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Um, and the law in their state.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: But, you know, if the parenting plan doesn't say they can't, you're gonna have to get something else in there to figure that out.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'll also add that we have to be really careful not to label everything as alienation.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Parents can absolutely disagree without alienation being the explanation, and parents can make mistakes without it being alienation.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: The concern, again, is where we see this consistent pattern of behavior that places the kid in the middle of the parents or subtly pressures the child to align emotionally with one parent or the other.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: And that's going to be a much more nuanced conversation than simply asking whether someone visited the school.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: So, what about taking the kids off campus?
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: And I I think that's a whole different, I think that's a whole different situation.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: So I think it makes it more complicated.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Um, suppose dad doesn't just come to school and eat lunch, and I'm using dad, yeah, I'm not picking on dads.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: I moms do this too.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: It's just this is what we were talking about.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: We went with dad today, so we'll just stick with dad being the the the the naughty one.
• 30:29
  unknown: Yeah.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: But say dad signs the kid out of school and they leave campus, they go to lunch.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Maybe the kid misses a class because lunches are now like five minutes long.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, lunches are so short now.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: They go to lunch, kid misses a class, dad brings him back.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Kid's super excited.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Now, interesting, Robert.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: I do I want to put a little twist on this.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: If if kid's super excited and and runs and tells mom, oh my gosh, dad took me to lunch.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: We had so much fun.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: I feel like mom's doing a pretty good job at sucking it up and not making the kid feel bad about this, I would guess.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Um, that the kid feels safe enough to say that.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Um, and hopefully that's the case, guys.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Hopefully that's the case.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Don't make your kids feel bad for enjoying something, even if it wasn't something you had expected, right?
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't bring the fight to the kid.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: If you have a concern about what the co-parent did, address it with them offline.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: So now what, Robert?
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: We we have that.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Dad's now gone off campus.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Now what are we talking about?
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's bigger than just lunch at this point.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: The kid isn't simply having time with the parent, their school day has fundamentally changed.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: So the educational flow has been interrupted.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: You've created, you know, at least two additional transitions in their day and potentially more people involved.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I I have a I I do have a significant issue with transitions.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: As somebody who's been divorced, had kids 50-50, I've seen my kids, I've I've seen my kids have difficulty um with transitions and and really taking a day to unwind because our households were so different.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Um and I don't know, Robert, if that also is a piece there, if if your households are super different and you and then you've got somebody like coming in between to say, say it's week on, week off, and all of a sudden Tuesdays and Thursdays, the other parents coming in.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: I think that's a lot for a kid.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: So, you know, what do you kind of think on that?
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: And I know I'm kind of throwing you off here because we didn't discuss this, but well, I I mean, it should certainly be something that's considered.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: It's going to be one factor of many.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: So if a child already has challenges with transitions, you've complicated their day and their adjustment on either side of that transition.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: So it certainly could be an impact.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: You again need to look at what is the actual real impact of that transition.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Were they did it take them longer to readjust to being back in school?
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Did they miss any assignments?
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: You know, there's so many things that you'd have to look at as to was there an actual real felt impact because of the transition.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I I I totally agree.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: And I I think that um I think they just need to think through that decision and realize it's not necessarily this tiny, tiny decision.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: I I think that the parents need to understand what they're doing.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Um, and if they share legal decision making on education, you know, taking a child off campus without agreement, especially during the other parents' parenting time, could be significant.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: I am a big fan of writing stuff like that in a parenting plan because I I'm not offended by taking time away from school.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: I think things have to be met, you know what I mean, to take kids out of school.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: I'm not a big fan of taking kids out of school during someone else's parenting time.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I think that's a problem.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a couple points on that.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: You know, first thinking about the child's perspective.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: You take the kid out of school and they're already living in a dual household scenario where there's maybe some felt conflict already, that kid may start wondering, am I allowed to leave with my parent?
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Will I get in trouble?
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Does my other parent know?
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: What do I tell my teacher?
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: So you're you're bringing them back into the realm of managing adult concerns instead of maybe enjoying lunch with their friends or their peers.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: But on the topic that you brought up about um, you know, taking kids out of school in general and sort of interrupting that, I mean, I think about things like what if you had uh an event, a wedding or a family reunion or something that could potentially require the child to miss her day or two of school.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Launi, would you consider that at that point a legal decision for education?
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Um well, I mean, I think it needs to be in the parenting plan.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: I I think you don't need to plan for those things.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: The only people who don't need to plan for those things are the people who who aren't coming to us, right?
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Like I think that you need to have stuff in your parenting plan for taking kids out of school anyway, for missing significant school.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: And I I say that, I say that because inevitably what would have happened in in my situation is I would make a plan and I would I would tell like my kid's dad, and this didn't happen, I'm just saying I could picture it happening.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Like I would tell my kids' dad, hey, I'm gonna take them out Thursday and Friday so that we can go on this trip.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Inevitably, he will take them out on Monday and Tuesday.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: Like, and and now all of a sudden they're only going to school on Wednesday.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, so maybe you limit the number of days that you can do that, or you talk about the special events because we have special events written in most parenting plans, like they get to go to the other parent, there's exchanges and stuff.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: Um but inevitably in in my situation, something something would have happened um that would have caused a problem.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: So I'm a fan of those being in the parenting plans.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Um but even if nobody objects, even if everyone's on the same page, I still think it's important for notice.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Taking a kid off campus if there's an accident, and I think it's respectful.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: Um I think commun good communication matters in in situations like that.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: I think um I think good co-parents don't generally surprise one another with decisions that affect a child's school day like that.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: Um it's not uncommon.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: It's not uncommon at all.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: For us to get calls where a parent like a like let's say kids with mom, mom took kid out of school that day, and let's say dad gets a phone call from the school and the school says, Hey, child didn't show up today.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: Um, and mom's like, Oh, why I took kid out.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: I I think you just need to at least have that conversation, just kid's not gonna be here.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: Uh, then there's no worry also.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: You're not worried about did did was there an accident?
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Did something happen?
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Why isn't the child?
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Is the child sick?
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Um, I I think communication is a big help.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Good communication is a big help, and it can really prevent unnecessary misunderstandings, I think.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: And, you know, it's also true that notice isn't always about asking permission.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just, like you said, demonstrating respect or just being, you know, considerate of your co-parents so they're not freaking out, wondering, you know, why their kid is not in school when they drop them off, right?
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: So children notice that cooperation too.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: So that's another nice sort of side effect when you are communicative and collaborative with your co-parent.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: And they also notice when every interaction between their parents becomes uh a surprise or a conflict.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: So that emotional climate that you create matters just as much as the event itself.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Um, I see Launi too a lot in my evaluations or sometimes even therapy cases where the dispute becomes, and I'll use the same example, parent A wants to take them out of school on a Friday to go to a family reunion or a wedding or some, you know, incidental event that never would be spelled out in a parenting plan, nor should it be, but it just sort of happened.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: But the other parent opposes it on the grounds that they shouldn't miss school because maybe they're behind in a subject.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: And then it does sort of become a battleground now, hopefully not in front of the child or children, but some sort of dispute over, you know, that aspect of the legal decision.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: I I mean, yeah, then it's then it's is taking a child out of school for a day part of legal decision making.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: And there's arguments both ways.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Listen, in everything that we do, there's arguments in both ways, unless it's just plainly spelled out.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, one of the issues is like, when does parenting time actually begin?
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: So in your case, if if daddy dropped the kid off Friday morning at school, um, when does that other parent's parenting time actually start?
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Because now are they taking the other parents' parenting time?
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Now, this 100% should be written in your parenting plan, that on non-school days the parenting time ends at, you know, 9 a.m.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: or whatever, and that any responsibility if the child is sick, you know, parenting time ends at 9, whether they're at school or not, and or eight, or at school drop-off or at eight, whatever it is.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: So that the parents also know when to like if if the kid's sick, if they need to take him to the other parent's house or whatever.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: So that's another issue that it can um that can happen.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: So you know, I think um there's so many things that you can get in your parenting plans that um that can solve problems.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: So either you are taking kids out, you're not taking kids out, you limit parenting time or or times taken out.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: You can take them out Fridays early, you can take them out for, you know, the I think it needs to be limited.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's it's um, you know, the grades are homework's done.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: The the parent who wants to take the child out of school has already checked with the school and has makeup homework and everything ready.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Like there's things.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Um, you know, by the way, the kids aren't experiencing their lives in these legal compartments.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: They're looking at like that continuity, even though they don't know that's what it is.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: That's what they're they're having, is they're they show up at school, they have that continuity.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Dad may drop them off, they may know mom is picking them up.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: If mom drops them off, they know dad, you know, they're going home with dad that day.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: So from a child's perspective, school isn't this emotionally, you know, neutral place where parenting somehow disappears.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: It's just part of their transition from one parent's home to the other.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: It's the adults that impose all these kind of rules and expectations and uh having this sort of framework so they can make these legal and sort of day-to-day parenting decisions.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: You mean Robert, you mean the kids aren't wanting it to become legal?
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: I hope not.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Although I don't know if you've observed this.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: I think kids, especially teenagers, um, even like young teenagers, are coming equipped to sessions and evaluations with much more information.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: And uh they're they're Googling things and researching things and using AI to sort of understand what they believe their rights to be in these evaluations or in therapy.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: And it's it's kind of an interesting shift.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, interesting.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: No, I've not seen that because I I keep the kids out of what I'm doing with the parents, and I tell my parents to keep the kids out of it also.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Um that doesn't mean that they do, it just means that they're supp they're supposed to.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Um I think um, you know, parents parent differently and define parenting differently.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: And I think I think at some people when it's like you drop them off at school, that's the change, you know, and you're done.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: And you and now the other parent can take the kids.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: Um, and if that's at nine o'clock in the morning, if that's at three in the afternoon, whatever that is, I think um I think that's an issue.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: So other people might say that the transition is after school dismissal, right?
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: That it's um once the school is dismissed.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: I can tell you of a case where and the I mean if you've got a difficult co-parent, you need to write this stuff in the parenting plan.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: The the the mom was dropping the kid off at preschool, like the exchange time was like nine o'clock.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Mom was dropping the kid off at preschool at like nine thirty because she didn't want to rush and the kid was sleeping and whatever.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: She didn't have to like be at work at a certain time by then.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: And um, and dad threw dad started getting to the point where he would wait there to watch the drop off time to make sure that the kid was dropped off on time at nine.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: That's a problem.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Dad stopped that, mom stopped that.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: If if you're doing that, like who cares?
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: You weren't gonna by the way, the dad was not taking the child at that time.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Do these people not have jobs either?
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: like who has time for this?
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: I I don't know.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: It's it's like that becomes their job.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: I just I can tell you it it's shocking that some people think that way.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: And you know, just don't don't make this harder than it has to be.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: Divorce sucks.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Co-parenting sucks.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: Fine.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: Just don't make it as difficult as it needs to be.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: So some parenting plans actually write that in.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Others are totally silent on it.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: There's not one right answer.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: There's the answer that works best for you guys.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: You know, state law might tell you when, you know, how old the kid has to be when they go to school and what time they have to be there.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: But for the most part, you know, put the specific facts in your parenting plan so that you're not having these issues.
• 44:49
  unknown: Yeah.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: And I don't think the kids are sitting there in like math class or PE wondering whether parenting time has paused while they're sitting there getting a lecture.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: You know, they're maybe thinking about that emotional emotional continuity that they feel between their parents, but they're not tracking this sort of like Switzerland area of the parenting plan, you know?
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, they're at a physical location for sure and they're going to spend the day there.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that that exists outside of parenting time and the parenting time schedule.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: That needs to be all included.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: It needs to be it's not like a dad's parenting time ends at 8 a.m and mom starts at at pickup and now you've got this whole time where apparently the school has custody of your kids.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: Let's make that you know in your parenting plans the the correct way.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: Know what you're supposed to do, know who's supposed to pick up the kids.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: That part shouldn't be in the mo.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: And by the way, I'm sure somebody got credit for child support for that time period.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: So um just keep that in mind.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: The parent should be cautious about just making assumptions and um and and don't just assume that because they're in school that that it's nobody's parenting time so you can take it over.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: That's just not true.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: And if it's a problem, it's a problem.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: And that that assumption can cause a lot of unnecessary litigation.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Well let's talk about so teacher in service days and school closure and absences.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: So when there's a a tea it's a school day right because the teachers are in service but and it's not like a holiday so it's kind of a school day and it might even be a half day but who has the child at that time?
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah again I don't think the kids are waking up thinking well the parenting schedule disappeared because my teacher has a in-service day you know they they want that consistency.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: It's the adults that are overc overcomplicating what the children experience you know and so again these are areas that hopefully are spelled out in your parenting plan um which I think you could speak to Launi.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah I I I mean I think they need to I think I think that some sometimes and and again we add these things in here because it happens right it it happens where somebody says an in school day is an in school day that means school's still open that means the kid still needs to be dropped off and I pick them up at this time you guys need to figure that out in your parenting plan if possible and put that down.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: If it's unclear um make it clear right if if you you don't know then put the the answer there.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Clarify it I see this happening in um sometimes it's argued in custody evaluation cases but especially when I'm working with families who are participating in some sort of therapy with me what happens when the kid's sick, you know, and one parent says my son stayed home from school so they stayed with me even though the parenting time may have technically started at school drop off you know that other parent may have an argument today was supposed to be my day.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: I've I see this go back and forth where it's like well they wanted to stay home with me because they're more comfortable and I could the implication is I can take better care of them than you can or you know they'll feel more comfortable at my home and and under my care and and comfort.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: So the other parent if they're willing and it's their parenting time should have the ability to also care for the child when they're sick.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: So but from the child's perspective they don't benefit they don't they're not benefiting when the adults improvise the parenting schedule in the middle of an illness you know they just they just want to get better.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah I think and I think parents need to be kind of cautious on this if a kid is sick in bed you know don't say get your kid outright this minute and bring them over.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: I mean but I I have seen Robert the other way where they're saying um hey I'm sick and I don't want the child and there's the other parents like I take care of the kid when I'm sick you take care of the kid when you're sick like be a parent the whole time.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: So I see it go both ways.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: I think the stuff that you and I see most frequently though are where a parent's trying to get extra time.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: And so should the child Robert just this is for you should the child um get to choose like where they want to be sick I can tell you in my experience moms are often different caretakers than dad and I'm gonna be sexist here to some extent I know you guys can call me out on it at least in my life in my world in my experience oftentimes and we can just say one parent is a different kind of caretaker than the other parent I mean I'll I'll I'll save the audience the the the burden of of attacking you on that I think it I mean it it could fall along gender lines moms and dads for sure but um but caregiving is caregiving they may perceive any parent who is nurturing and comforting and and helpful to them when they're not feeling well as a preferred parent in that scenario.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: I I look at it too well let me go back to your question which is should the kid decide I think that's a slippery slope for any argument right when we're dealing with high conflict co-parenting and families when you empower the child to make those decisions it's just a very slippery slope to lots of problems like parenting time refusals.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: I think if parents put all of that aside and said what is in the best interest of my child right now, the decision would be really clear.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: For example, if your kid has 103 degree fever and they've got chills and you know they're shivering in bed and they're you know they're sweating is it really reasonable to drag them out of bed to do a parenting time exchange probably not but there may be other factors that need to be considered like maybe they need to get over to the other parent's house because the parent ending their time has some other obligation.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: So there's always circumstances but if parents could just sort of put the logistics aside and say what is going to be best for my kid also like if if my co-parent said hey do you want me to keep our child because they're sick I I would say yes thank you.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: I don't want to get sick like give it a date you know what I mean 100% same I would do the same in my direction like hey they're already here we're all infected if you want them to stay another day or two that's totally fine.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: I can work from home and and just like having each other's backs that way.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: Why pass an illness back and forth and we saw the uh extreme of that during COVID of course in terms of how you know medical advice and and differences in how people were responding to a a a global crisis you know really mapped onto these issues and created a lot of conflict fortunately now we can just talk about it in terms of general routine day-to-day seasonal illnesses.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah I I mean for sure I I think parents need to also look at the big scheme of things when they're talking about it if the kid's sick and in bed and wants to stay sick and in bed and just wants to sleep there um you know count the hours in every year and multiply that by the amount of years you have left with that child and see if those hours that you're complaining about are really worth the complaint.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Because they probably aren't not to mention all the hours after the child's 18 and can decide whether they want to be with you or the other parent you've got more time typically after 18 than before 18 to you know to have a relationship with your kiddo.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: So um but yeah if somebody said hey child's sick at my house you want me to keep them I've don't put that kid here.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: I don't want to get sick you know I I pick up I've got lupus so I you know if I get sick sometimes I'm down for a long time.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: I definitely appreciate that.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: But I'm willing to take care of the kid too.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: I mean you know my kids are eight older but well and I think one of the variables too is trust.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: Like if you trust your co-parent that their intentions are genuine you know to support the child and it's not some sort of ruse to just have more parenting time, that's so I'll hear that all the time.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: Oh my kid wasn't really that sick or they weren't sick at all and it was just the other parent trying to take take my time away and it again becomes this sort of battleground for who can capture more time.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: If that's not a factor and you can just cooperate around what's going to work best for your kid who's sick.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: And maybe if you want to show care and comfort and it's your parenting time and and you still want to show care, send like a DoorDash or like drop off a care basket or something you know of like foods, you know with permission from the don't just do it randomly but like ask hey is there anything I can do to make it easier do you want me to send a uh like DoorDash uh chicken noodle soup or I was just thinking that Panera's Panera is not it I think Panera's soup.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: Or the bread bowls with the broccoli.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah I mean I I listen if if if they all work together that would be great if everyone could work together.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: There they don't and if your child is legitimately ill you know do what's in the best interest of of your child and you know not just take advantage not just taking advantage of it.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: I think that's um I think that's really important.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Well and another plea to co-parents to cooperate is don't think about incidents think about patterns.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: You know if this is a one off or a two off is this like the hill you want to die on?
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Like just cooperate around this particular event until it becomes a theme or a pattern that is creating some sort of negative impact address it then but if this is a one time event don't don't blow it up yeah I agree I agree and I think kids are super perceptive and they're gonna see that you know that you guys are being dumb if you're being dumb.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: So you don't want to put your kids in the middle of this stuff.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: So I I had just said should the kids be able to choose Robert's like mm-mm I agree I mean that's that's I think that just puts kids in such a a terrible position.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: Because they don't you know I I'm gonna give an example again from mine.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: I I I think kids might want to choose something and then feel guilty about that choice.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: And or they won't do something that that they want to do because of the guilt and then the other parents like well they chose this it's like yeah because they feel guilty but there's it's really a lose lose for the kid I think.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: Well yeah and I mean I think about my own kids when they're really sick if I if I tried to drag them out of bed they would be pissed.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: They would be really upset if they had 103 degree fever you know when they could have just stayed so I mean again you've got to listen to you know all the signs, everything that's going on all the dynamics and just make better decisions for your kids.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: So I I also want to talk about putting the school in the middle of all of this.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: It's not uncommon for parents to get frustrated and call the school and say it was my parenting day why didn't you know and the school doesn't know this school has hundreds of kids they don't know they don't know they're not paying attention to whose parenting day it really is probably um but it's going to cause a problem for your kids at school you know I've seen the the schools become just first of all I don't know that any of them will testify anymore.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: They used to back in the day they don't they don't anymore but they don't want to be in the middle of your conflict the teachers don't want to be in the middle of the conflict the counselors don't want to be in the middle of the conflict the office staff doesn't want to the principal doesn't the resource officers don't it their job is to educate your kids and not referee your custody disputes yep oh gosh I'm so glad we're talking about this because I pay such close attention to this during custody evaluations.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: Usually the school or academic record is one of the first records I get schools are just really timely in producing records mental health professionals not so much.
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: So I get these records I see their attendance I see sometimes teacher communications I see behavior reports office notes um even like the nursing notes because sometimes they see the school nurse or the school counselor emails communication logs what stands out isn't necessarily the child's behaviors it's the adults and you see it really clear in the record and sometimes you can almost watch a family's conflict unfolding through the school records and maybe you've been given a primer on whatever the issue was that happened at school but the record is really telling an impactful story in terms of how the parents have involved and overinvolved a place that's supposed to be really safe and neutral for the kids yeah you know I think I think it probably starts out innocently enough I think um you know you might involve them more than you think you've involved them you might ask a teacher not to say anything about your visit um you know you might start sort of pushing who can pick up the child who can't you know this is a big one Robert that happens is where people people take off the emergency list so somebody will put so I know you see this all the time.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: Somebody puts somebody on the emergency list the other parent takes a person off the emergency list because they have 5050 and I I don't approve this person that they can't pick up and it never fails that it's a new significant other.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: Right and um and now they're back and forth and the school's in the middle of this the school's like come on people and so you end up oftentimes going to court going to a parenting coordinator um but then the teachers and the staff you know find themselves being asked to answer questions that they don't want to be put in the middle of they don't want you know they they don't want somebody who they let pick up the child yesterday come into the office you know the next day and say you can't pick up that child because you're not on the list.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: Mom took you off the list and now by the way kids stuck at school who's gonna pick up the kid I mean this this should be in your parenting plan.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: This should be in your parenting plan on who gets to pick up the kids from school and don't don't don't minimize it as much as you think you want to there will be a time where you will want and need someone other than you and your ex to pick up the kids there's gonna be a time and and hopefully it's not a bad time hopefully it's for your your joy and entertainment but accidents happen and things happen and and you just want to get it in your parenting plan and then just don't um think about the best interest of the child and not your emotions I guess is really the way I'm gonna say that.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah and by the way teachers aren't trying to build a case for you and the office staff aren't trying to prove who's right or wrong in this whatever the conflict is they're just documenting what's happening while the education is is going on while they're trying to educate the kids ironically because they are typically so neutral those records become incredibly informative for me as an evaluator not because anyone was investigating the family but because patterns naturally emerge in those records over time.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Well and you can see the emails change when you start involving the teachers right they might be very nice at the beginning and all of a sudden they're very um direct um they're less conversational when later they're very just factual yeah um I I think I think that you're putting your kids in a really bad situation doing that.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: We, you know, as an attorney I'm gonna see the pattern I'm gonna see the change I'm gonna go what caused this change this teacher was very nice to you and possibly what happened was the parent who who maybe has soul you've probably seen this the person who has soul legal decision making automatically then says you can't talk to the other parent at all.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: And that's not what the intent of the order was the intent of the order was basically school choice or something.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: But then they get them kicked out of everything.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: You know the teachers see that the teachers recognize that and the teachers are talking about that I'm sure behind your back kids are probably hearing it your kids are going to find out like it's just a mess.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: Don't get the kids' schools involved yeah and you know they're talking about it I mean during their staffing meetings or you know in the coffee room or break room.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: I mean these are not they're human beings and I know this too not just you know theoretically like I have teachers tell me things you know that probably their legal department would not be too happy with but they share them and you know so you know they're talking and conversing and understanding you know when they see a conflict play out at the crosswalk or when they're doing like crosswalk duty or you know when the kids are being picked up on the the pickup line or even just the interactions during parent teacher nights.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: I mean they they're aware of these things they have good information about what they're seeing but they're there to educate your kids and they didn't they didn't sign up to be like these mediators in a custody dispute and nor should they have to yeah there's a lot of stuff that goes on with the schools that I I I think is a little troublesome.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: You know I think you've got to understand the teacher's not your co-parent and isn't your babysitter and isn't your co-parent's babysitter.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: You know they imagine if every one of their families had a high con every one of the kids in their in their class had a high conflict family.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: I mean what a nightmare between creating the um the meetings the conferences and have and have two and all of this stuff don't don't get your your teachers your kids' teachers involved that heavily and Robert I did have a question um real quick.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: So you do talk to teachers as collaterals when you do your evaluations yeah sometimes if they're do they always get back to you because my understanding now I haven't litigated in now it's been like eight years but we could like their the school districts were like no you're not talking to them.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah to go through the attorneys there's this sweet spot where I can get a teacher as a collateral before their legal gets involved and the teacher doesn't know any better.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: So so sometimes the teachers will talk to me other times legal's already tapped and I'll get a a you know strongly worded email from their their general counsel stating that the school doesn't take positions.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: But sometimes legal permits it but they have to be on the call or they have to be part of the communication.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: So it really depends on the issue and I think sometimes the severity of the issue is the the driving factor to the degree I think the school feels they've become overinvolved and need to at least kind of put a tourniquet on it.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: They will talk to somebody like myself who's doing a custody evaluation.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: But what the teachers do always do for me because it's part of I think their role in general is I will often send teachers a questionnaire.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: It's called the Basque you can use different measures but there's the vinel there's the Basque.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: These are all psychological measures that we can use to get a pulse on the child's functioning in school.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: But psychologists who are doing evaluations of children for neuropsychic reasons or like a neuropsych or an educational evaluation, they use these same instruments.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: So schools are very um responsive to filling those out even if it's for the purpose of a custody valuation because it is so objective.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: It's just does the child do X, Y, or Z?
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: So that's another pathway that I get information from the school.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah I'll tell you when when I first started practicing teachers were testifying all the time.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: So that was like almost 26 years ago they were testifying a lot more and then I then stuff happened I guess and Um, they really stopped.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: They they seem to have mostly stopped.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't see them in court too often.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: Although I did just have a case where I was the um expert consultant and the attorney on my side of the case was able to get the school principal to uh testify and their legal permitted it.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: It was surprising, actually.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: And and don't ask your your teachers to report back to you on stuff.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, as much as it would be nice to have a spy in the classroom, just don't put them in the middle of it.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: You've got to give them that separation and let your child just have that relationship with them without you sort of pushing into that.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: And somebody like me who's reviewing it, if I see that behavior has created a negative impact on the child's learning environment, uh, that's data for me as to the parent not considering the child's best interest, which could map onto my analysis when I think about who's a better decision maker in this case.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: Um, when I make those recommendations to the court.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you you you agree.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: No, don't tell mom, don't tell dad.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: Or how about how about the one?
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: And you might get this.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: Did um can you can you uh tell me how the child was after I left?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: Was the child super happy?
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: Because mom's saying that the child was not super happy.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, do you get any anything like that when you're doing yeah?
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's so nuanced though, Launi, because a parent may ask that type of question in so many circumstances, like if they were having adjustment difficulties or maybe there was a concern about bullying at school.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Parents are often asking those types of questions of teachers, like, how is my kid doing?
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: So it can be very nuanced.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: And I suppose a very sort of crafty person could ask that question in a way that would seem innocuous.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: And and therefore, by extension, it has no negative impact on the child.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: Uh, but in general, it you should not be using your child's school or teachers or administrators for um, you know, case building, in my opinion.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: I think that's not really keeping the child's uh interest at the forefront.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: So I do want to kind of hop over to supervised parenting.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: Um and and the story that I had read on Facebook, it had said something about supervised parenting time, but I couldn't tell if it was supervised parenting time.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: And so I do want to make sure that I answer that.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: So, you know, I like to find questions on Facebook and answer them here.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: And then I can link the podcast to those people too.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: So in the event that that the person who took the the kid out of school was on supervised parenting time, that's a big problem.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: That's a big a big, big problem.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: Um you've got to like why were why was it supervised parenting time?
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: Um you know, everything that we've discussed previously is sort of if the parents have fairly typical parenting, you know, schedules, maybe 50-50, the most, you know, every other weekend kind of a difference.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: But what if the the parenting time is um supervised?
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: If if there's a reason to fear that one of the parents is a danger and they're taking a child out of school, I'm probably calling the police and and creating a police reporter or advising my client to do that.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: Like I'm I'm saying let's go get an order of protection.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: I'm saying that this is, you know, I it it probably can't be like interference of parenting time because again, we're talking about that that time period of the the no man's land during school.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: Um but well, and that's why I think it's so cut and dry.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: There's no nuance here.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: If a parent is ordered to be supervised or if their contact can only be under supervised conditions per a court order, it doesn't matter what setting that's in, it has to be supervised per the um conditions of that order.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: So whether that's a specific professional supervisor or sometimes it's a neutral third party, it doesn't just sort of, you know, generalize to, okay, because my child is around other people like students and teachers, that that doesn't count as contact.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, that that would be an absurd reasoning, I think, from a from a you know, if you're trying to make an argument.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: Um, and the people around who don't know necessarily why supervision was ordered, we shouldn't automatically assume or or sort of draw conclusions from that.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: Only the only important fact here is that the court has established a structure around parent-child contact.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: So if a parent was doing that, I'd be really, really concerned as a parent and as an evaluator that that parent is looking for ways around that structure instead of respecting the order.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: And I've I've seen it in my evaluations.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: I've seen parents argue, well, the teacher was there, so I didn't I didn't think that it was, you know, needing to be supervised.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: Um supervised contact is supervised contact.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I I think I I agree.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: I I think people use that.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: They that, well, there was a teacher there and there was the principal there, or it was, you know, it was just lunch and I didn't take them anywhere.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Um, or they use kind of word games, you know, like, well, I mean, lunch isn't parenting time, or school, you know, belongs school doesn't belong to either parent, or or I was there for my child's, you know, special event, like a band recital or something.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: Which they're probably allowed to do.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: They might be able to go see an event because they're just watching, right?
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: You know, but then they stay and they now they're visiting, and that becomes a bigger issue.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: And I think when you make those orders and when you make those requests, and that's in a parenting plan, I think it needs to be very specific.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: And and I honestly haven't seen any, I've anyone I've written has said who the parenting or who the supervisor is going to be.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: So I've never seen one like open that can only have supervised.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: They, you know, they do sometimes say by an agreed upon person.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: And so if you're saying, well, you know, mom agrees that this teacher's fine to have the kids, why couldn't I?
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: You know, there's ways, listen, there's arguments for everything.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: Um, but if it were my client, pretty quickly it would be we're calling the police if you took them off campus, otherwise an order protection.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: And think about the spirit of a order that states you have to have supervised contact around your child.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: The court has jumped in and said there's a concern here, there's a potential safety issue.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: Why would you do anything as the parent who's under that restriction?
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: Com why would you do anything to compromise your future access to your child?
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: You're just sort of playing with fire in that in that moment.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean, my assumption is that a lot of those people who are having supervised parenting time have that for a reason.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: It could be a mental health reason, could be a substance abuse reason, and they might not necessarily be um thinking they're, you know, thinking completely straight.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: Um but definitely, you know, it if there's a court that was worried enough to put something in an order, you need to obey the order and not try and play word games and not try and figure out ways to get around it.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: Um now I I think we kind of said a little bit, what about school plays, concerts, and like the open events?
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: Typically um the orders say that people are allowed to uh the parents are, you know, both parents are permitted to go, right?
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: Even if it's the other parents' parenting time, if it's a if it's an assembly or something, um, or a concert.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: Because they have, I don't know if your schools do this, but my kids' schools always had like this.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: Well, my grandkids still they have them like in the middle of the day, like concerts, which I find so odd.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: When I was going to school, they were after school, they were like at night so parents could come.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I I the these things aren't always spelled out in court orders, right?
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: And so that I think creates some ambiguity.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: But let's go back to the theme that we talked about earlier.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: It's that question, can I or should I?
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: And so if attendance at an event is permitted, can I go there to support my child?
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: Can I do so without creating an unnecessary kind of conflict or interaction with my co-parent?
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: Can I let my kid enjoy the event instead of feeling responsible for me or whatever's going on in the family?
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: And can I exit without creating a conflict?
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: So I think those are the questions that matter just as much.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm a fan of both parents going.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: I think kids want both parents to go.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, they're always looking at you see those, you see those little like Facebook things where a kid's up there performing and is looking for the parent, looking all sad for the parent, looking sad for the parent, and all of a sudden sees the parent and is super excited and waving.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: And um, so I I like them going to the I like both parents going to those as long as they can do it appropriately, as long as there's not going to be an embarrassment, any abuse, or any problems.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: Well, and and I should clarify, I I agree with that position too.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: I think both parents and and loved ones should be in attendance and and would benefit, the child would benefit from feeling that support.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: My point is if you are in a conflictual situation with your co-parent and historically you've done joint events and they've created a major conflict in front of your child that's that's harmful, you have a you have a uh cost-benefit analysis to do as the parent.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: Is me showing up when it's the other parent's parenting time going to create a scene such that my child doesn't benefit from from that event?
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: Or it's it makes it worse than um had I not gone at all.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: I think those are relevant questions to ask.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: And it may not be fair or right, and you may be legally permitted to go.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: But again, if it's their performance that they've been practicing for for six months, and there's some sort of you know what I see this a lot in uh Launi is like cases where there's um resist refuse dynamics and a child is resisting parenting time, right?
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: And so they're like, I don't want mom to come.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: I don't want mom to come to my performance.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: And I mean, that's a really that would be a really hard position for a parent to be in because they want to be there to support them, but by showing up, are they going to worsen the dynamic that's trying to be addressed either legally or therapeutically?
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: It's there's not a right or wrong answer.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: It's just more of a cost-benefit analysis at that point.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: We see things so different because I don't ever see that that part, right?
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: I don't see the the TI stuff.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I do, I did, I don't anymore, but I did, you know, I just that's not where my brain initially goes.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: Um, I do think it'd be nice if we could kind of leave people with some practical guidelines, Robert.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: Um, and and maybe you've got um, maybe you've got a few that you could share, some guidelines.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: Um, you know, when we talk about the notion that um, you know, because kids don't experience parenting way parenting the way adults experience parenting, um, adults are thinking about things in terms of rights, you know, schedules, court orders, time.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: Children are thinking about safety, they're thinking about predictability, they're thinking about connection and whether or not they can just be kids.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: So sometimes the most loving thing a parent can do is show up.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: Um, and sometimes the most loving thing a parent can do is wait a day, you know.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: So it's the the wisdom there is kind of knowing the difference.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: And and similar to the example I just gave, you know, you have to do that cost-benefit analysis because kids are not measuring love by how often a parent interrupts their day or shows up in their day.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: They're measuring it by how emotionally safe they feel with that parent over time.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'd I'd kind of like to add that I just I really think it's important for um people to first, of course, read your parenting plans carefully.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: Um, I'd prefer you create them carefully first.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: Um but understand who has the legal decision-making authority and what that means.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, do you have to have an agreement if somebody's going out of school?
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: Um communicate whenever appropriate and communicate appropriately and kindly and respectfully, um, because that communication can help tremendously.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying this works for everybody because I know that there's going to be some people who have such bad communication with the other party, or by them communicating, they're just gonna cause more issues.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: So assuming you can do it safely, you know, communicate and um don't assume that the other parent silence means that you have, you know, unlimited discretion to do what you want.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: Um and don't assume that if a parenting plan is silent in it, that you can do anything you want.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: Um you know, the absence of language, the absence of agreement does not just mean you get to, you know, do whatever.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: Um it may mean that you don't get in trouble immediately in court, but it doesn't mean they're not going to change that and that the court's not gonna look down on that behavior.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and and these are, you know, there's so many situations, Launi, where you know, parents butt up against these gray areas in parenting plans.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: And and even if they are spelled out, it doesn't mean that it's intuitively um understandable, you know, and like your intuition as a parent may guide you in a different direction.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: So um if the things we've been talking about today um or or sort of events that you've had that are similar to these are sort of showing up in your co-parenting uh dynamic or your relationship or your court case, you don't have to do that alone.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: So at Split Up, Launi and I believe that children really deserve to have uh lots of things, one of those being school, uh stay a place for learning, friendship, growth, emotional safety.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: Um it doesn't need to be another extension of family court, which is what we were talking about specifically in today's podcast.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: But um, if you are reviewing or creating a parenting plan, um definitely download split up and look at our planners and worksheets, which really include a lot of those practical uh guides on how to manage school exchanges, educational decision making, all the things we've been talking about.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: So uh it's a great resource for everybody.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I kind of just want to end this where we started it with the can I and should I?
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: And I I again I I think that those are two totally different things.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: There's so many things, yeah, maybe you can, but really, really try hard to think about should I if you're doing something like that.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: And think about it from your child's perspective, not from getting even from for your ex.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: Well said.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Robert.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: Thanks, everyone.