Latest / Mom Wars / Two Under Two

Transcript

Two Under Two · Mom Wars

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: From the front lines of the mom wars, here's Bethany
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Mandel and Cara Kennedy.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Your Favorite Podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: I am your co-host, Bethany Mandel, and I am joined by.
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: My other co-host.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Everyone missed you so much, Cara.
• 0:19
  Speaker 4: The elusive Cara.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: People kept asking, someone asked me, they were like, are
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: you guys fighting? And I was like, no, she just
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: had a baby and is very busy.
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: No, actually, my baby's like eight months old. There is
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: absolutely no excuse. I would say that the bigger issue
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: is the two-year-old, to be honest.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: That's always how it is. The older kid is always
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: the harder of the adjustment.
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah. We would say in the other day that so
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: many people are like, wow, how do you do two
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: under two? How do you have the bandwidth for that?
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: And it's like, how do people not do two under two?
• 0:53
  Speaker 4: Because if I got having one two-year-old and then was like, oh,
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: I want to have another baby, I would wait years.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: Because it's just too much. I could not be pregnant
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: with a two-year-old. Yep.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Yep. It's awful. So we just read a hilarious piece
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: in GQ about the chaos of two kids. The chaos
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: of two kids. I took two kids with me today
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: to Trader Joe's and I was like, this is so nice.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: And my favorite when I do that or when I
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: bring like two or three kids is like, oh, you
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: brought the whole crew. And I'm like, literally a third.
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: Of the crew.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Okay. I wanted to talk about this because I feel
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: like I'm pro the piece and everybody else is against it.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: So I will say in your defense, I am nodding like,
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: bless your heart, sweet child. But you have a particularly
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: hectic situation. You have a two-year-old and an eight-month-old. It
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: really doesn't get harder than that.
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah. What I sympathize with more in the piece is
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: that he takes it as an opportunity to basically talk
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: about how parents of one child, of one children, child, children?
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Child.
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: One child are basically not parents, which after having two...
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: I feel like everybody feels like that. It's like, what
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: were you doing with your time? Why were you so stressed? Like,
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: you look back and laugh.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: And it's like, how was I possibly so overwhelmed with
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: one child? There were two parents. Like, what?
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: That's how I feel about two kids.
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. And I bet this happens more and more, right?
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: Not really. I mean, once you hit three, it doesn't
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: get harder. Like the two-year-old problem is still a problem
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: that you just have like a perpetual two-year-old in my house.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Like we had a two-year-old always. But it didn't get
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: exponentially harder. Once we hit three, it was like we
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: are outnumbered. And it also depends on the kid too,
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: which I want to tell a story. But I have
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: one child who is harder than the others. And so
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: there was once where we were at Hershey with all
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: six of our kids. And I took my younger daughter.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: And Seth took the other five children and it was
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: equally hard. I was like, I, maybe I would like
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: the other five and you just take this really hard
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: one kid. But I, I drew the short end of
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: the stick. Speaking of sticks, that child. So she does a,
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: she does an outdoor nature class on, I don't remember
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: what day, but she's like outside for five hours a day.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: It's so good for her. And this week, She got
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: hit in the eye with a fungus-covered stick. I have
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: seen a lot in my time as a parent. Pinworms.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Are you familiar with pinworms yet?
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, there is nothing worse than pinworms. We have had
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: scarlet fever. We have had an infected gland that turned septic.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: It was insane. The things that we have seen... A
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: fungus covered stick to the eye was new for me.
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: Could you see the fungus on this? Were you there
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: when this happened?
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: I didn't see the stick. I didn't know about it.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: She walked up to me that night. I guess it
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: was Wednesday night. And she walked up to me and
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I was like, whoa, what happened to your eye? Because
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: she did not look like that when I picked her
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: up from the program earlier that afternoon. And she was like, yeah,
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: I got hit in the eye. And I was kind
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: of like, I wish that someone had told me that.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: But so she got hit in the eye and then
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: it started to look bad on Wednesday night. And then
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: on Thursday morning, so Wednesday night, I took a picture
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: of it. I sent it, I tweeted about this. And
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: so a pediatrician person that I have talked to before,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: and I know she's a pediatrician. I texted her a
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: picture and she's like, and the next morning on Thursday morning,
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: I texted her an update picture and she was like,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's it. That's a bring it in. You
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: got to bring that in. Her, her eye was so puffy.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Like it was half closed. It was, it looked real bad. So, um,
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: So I brought her into the pediatrician. The pediatrician was
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: basically like, it looks like it's getting infected, but I
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: hope it's not a corneal abrasion, but to check for
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: a corneal abrasion is very not fun. So she said,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: let's hope that the stick hit. I mean, it's very
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: thin skin under, under your eye. Let's hope that it's
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: getting infected and we'll put her on antibiotics and we'll
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: see how it's looking. But if it's not looking good,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: after like three doses we are going to have to
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: go the route of checking for a corneal abrasion and
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: thank god she woke up this morning it looks better
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: and um and now she's just gonna be on antibiotics
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: for the next five days because a fungus covered stick infected.
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: Her eye what what how do you check for corneal abrasion.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: It's like it's eye drops and they have a dye
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: in them and then they have to look very closely.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: It's it's we've like knock on wood. We've never done
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: it before. I was just looking into it of like,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: what would this process be? And it is not fun.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: My pediatrician and I think probably any pediatrician, they don't
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: mess around when it comes to eye stuff. And so
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: we've had kids before wake up with what she's calling it,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: like cellulitis, like just a skin infection around their eye.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: So this has happened to our kids twice, I think.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: The same kid, it happened to him twice, like many
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: months apart. And they're like, we don't mess around with eyes.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: And they immediately put the kid in. So if this
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: is the mom wars and I'm giving advice to moms,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: don't mess around with eyes. If there's something, my threshold
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: for bringing a kid into the pediatrician is very high,
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: but not when it comes to an eye. So we're
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: on antibiotics for the next week.
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: That terrifies me. That really terrifies me. Free semi-photo.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. It looks it's getting better. And it's funny,
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: I forgot my I was supposed to after lunch, check
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: her eye. And now we're recording after lunch, and I
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: forgot to look. So the pediatrician, I love my pediatrician
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: more than I've talked about them so much. They have
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: this great policy where on weekend mornings, between eight and nine,
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: if you call them, There's just the pediatrician themselves in
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: the office and they're like answering the phone for themselves.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: And they have like a little schedule and they're like,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: you come in at 8.05, you come in at or
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: like 9.10. And so they're there half the morning until
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: they go through their list of people. And they say like,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: you call between 9 and 10. We set our morning
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: ourselves and then we see those people and then we leave.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: And it's just them in the office. And you, like,
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: go in a side door or whatever. And so at
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: least I know that, like, I can go in tomorrow
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: or Sunday if I need to. But I don't want to.
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: So I'm just hoping. I mean, when you posted about
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: it on Twitter, there were a lot of comments being like,
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: you have to get to the hospital straight away or
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: she's going to turn blind. So I was, like, freaking out. No, no.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: That, like, people... You just have to tune out the hysterical, like,
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: I heard this one thing. There was this horrible thing
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: I saw on Twitter this week, actually, where a kid
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: skipped school and they went to the playground and they
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: got in this like freak accident where like their shirt
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: got caught on a screw inside a slide and the
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: kid died. And I'm just like, I never, I think
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: this is part of like the paranoia of our generation
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: because we just, we hear too many things. I don't
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: want to hear that. I never wanted to hear that story.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: And I'm sorry. I just subjected you and everyone.
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: Can I tell you, can I tell you a story? Yeah.
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: One of my friends, two year olds, maybe I've already
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: told you this. One of my friends, two year olds
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: was in her office a couple of weeks ago and
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: she was just like playing in the corner of the
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: room while my friend was on her laptop and she
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: was jumping and she jumped up and caught her eye
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: on like a hook on the wall, like a picture hook.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: And she was thrashing around, and my friend was trying
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: to hold her so she could unhook her eyelid.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God.
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: And she was thrashing around, and it just basically, like,
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: ripped through. She's fine. She's fine. She came over my house, like,
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: two days ago. She's fine. Oh, my God. Terrifying, right?
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Isn't it so fun to have children? It's so funny
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: because when I was a kid and I would like,
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: you know, I fell through a glass table and I
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: like whatever. I would tell this story like, oh, my God.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: And now I think about it through the eyes of
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: my poor mother who like was at work and got
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: a call. Your daughter is in the emergency room and
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: walked into the room and she could see like all
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: my bones and all my ligaments. And she passed out,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: like just hit the floor. And I always used to
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: make fun of her. And I'm like, my poor mom,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I wish I could apologize to you.
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: We have never had, I mean, knock on wood, we
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: have never had really a sickness here. not a bad
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: one maybe like a sniffle or right right not like
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: an actual like ear infection or whatever or nick and
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: i have between us never broken a bone never like.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah i mean i guess that makes sense i mean
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: we didn't again knock on wood a lot of knocking
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: on wood on this episode So I think, so we
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: never had a broken bone until again, that youngest daughter,
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: the youngest daughter, she's going to be a theme here.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: She broke her arm the night before my youngest son
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: was born. I'm sure I've told this story.
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah. Oh my God. Yeah.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: It was awful. So she broke her arm the night
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: before that birth and he's almost four. So we went
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: nine years without a broken bone. Cause my oldest daughter
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: is almost 13 and, And then we had one other
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: kid break his wrist, very minor, like barely a fracture
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: two years ago. So we've only had two broken bones,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: only one of which was like bad. And then we
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: only had stitches last summer for the first time. Seth,
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: I'm actually in the room that he did it. I'm
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: like right next to it. It was a summer camp day.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Our kids were all going to summer camp. And my
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: youngest son, who was two at the time, We had
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: a ceiling. We have a ceiling fan in our bedroom.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: And Seth was goofing around with him and like lifting
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: him like Simba and didn't judge accurately. And he put
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: his head into the ceiling fan and head wounds bleed, man.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: And so he he got him in the back of
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: the head. It required two staples, I think. I've never
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: been angrier at that.
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: So I, like, wrapped a towel around his head like
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: a turban, and I went to the local ER. What
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: really annoyed me was, like, this was, like, really bleeding.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: And he's, like, a two-year-old kid with, like, a head wound.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: And I'm just sitting in the emergency room waiting room for, like,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: half an hour, 45 minutes. And I was like, I
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: feel like there's nothing back there more important than what
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: I'm doing right now. And it was funny because I
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: was trying to judge between that emergency room, which is
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: like a general emergency room. They have a pediatric department,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: but it's pretty small or like going to Children's, which
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: is like the Children's Hospital down in D.C. But it's
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: like an extra half an hour drive. And so I'm
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: sitting in the emergency room of my local ER thinking
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: like I would be at Children's right now.
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: Oh, my God. Yeah.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: But they ended up stapling it because you can't sew together.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: And now there's, like, not even– there's no scar. There's
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: no missing hair. Like, you would never know. And I just, like,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: really played up how angry I was at my husband
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: the whole time I was in the emergency room because
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I didn't want them to call CPS. I was like,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: my husband. There's so many things. And then when he
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: showed up, I was like, I'm.
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: Actually– So your youngest is nearly four?
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: No, yeah. Two months away. How do you feel?
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: How do you feel? So we've never had a three-year-old
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: as the youngest, let alone a four-year-old as the youngest.
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: He's potty trained as of a couple of months ago
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: or like a month ago, I guess now, because we
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: did it right before he started preschool. So we've never
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: had no kids in diapers before. Like I just leave
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: the house without diapers now. It's a crazy world that
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: I've never experienced.
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: I can't even imagine. Yeah.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: So, I mean, this is like 12 years, 13 years
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: of leaving the house every single day with Diapers. And
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: then I just, now I don't. It's freeing. I really
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: like not having to be nap-trapped. I like not having
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: to carry the diapers. But I still have names. And, like,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: this morning, my five-year-old laid in my bed and said, Mommy,
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: we only have two girls in our family. Can you
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: please have another girl? And I was like, but what
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: if I had another baby and it was a boy?
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: And he's like, then you have another one. Obviously.
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: Oh, my God.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: So they're, like... They all want another one, like, in theory.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: But then I, like, ask, like, brass tacks. I'm like,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: so where are we putting this one? Because everyone is
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: sharing a room with someone else. We have four bedrooms
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: in our house, so it's me and Seth in one.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: And then the older girl, like, the two girls in
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: one room, the younger boys are sharing a room, and
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: the older boys are sharing a room. Like, the rooms
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: aren't big. We're not rich people. So, I don't know.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I think I just.
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: Wait, you sound way less convinced that you're done.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, like.
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: The last time we talked about this.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: I am just, like, I think it's the logistics that
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: are really... I think I would be more open to
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: it if there just any logistics made sense. But, like,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: the car situation would make no sense. We would have
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: to buy a Sprinter van. I don't want a Sprinter van.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: And we have no bedroom space. And so we'd have to, like,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: do construction, buy a new... And I'm just like, for.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: I want to be pregnant again and then give birth
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: again and then have the diaper. Like I finally am
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: out of that. And it took a lot of time
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: to get out of that. And I just feel like
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: I'm ready for the next step. But at the same time,
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: babies are cute. And I do have a boy name
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: and I do have a girl name. What if I
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: say the names and then I can't have a baby?
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: Why? Well, are you one of those people who keep
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: the name secret?
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never said my kids' names out in the world.
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. Oh, I forgot about that. I tell you
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: my names. I thought you were the type of person,
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: you know, like the Kardashians, where they don't tell anybody
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: their kids' names until they're born?
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we also don't do that.
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, we never... I was talking with
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: my mouth shut there.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so our... Our families guessed the girls' names because
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: it was kind of obvious. Like, in Judaism, you name
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: after people who have died. And so it was pretty
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: obvious who we were naming both of our daughters after.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: So everyone knew. Like, no one was surprised. But we, like,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Ein Har, like, the evil eye, like, we never acknowledged
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: when people were like, so you're naming her. And we
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: were like, that's in contention.
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: I don't want to know the names because I'm still.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: We had family. I'm glad that we never said the
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: names also, because we had family who disagreed about the
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: names and we told them when it was a done deal.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Like the baby's here, the birth certificate is written and
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: this is the name. And we had several instances where
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: family were like, are you kidding? You named your child that?
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: And you don't get like, you don't get a book
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: when it's not, when it's a done deal. Not that
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: they didn't try, but.
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I still remember all of the people who, when
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: I told them what the child was going to be
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: called before they were born, hated it.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: And tried to convince me otherwise. And now I'm like,
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: my mother was one of them, by the way. She
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: loves them now. Like, they've grown on her. And she
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: couldn't imagine them being called anything else. But there was
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: a time that she hated the names.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I don't want to debate it.
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: But I'm kind of thrown, though, because you were very convincing.
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: What I wanted to say was, how old are you?
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: 40.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: Okay. But your last baby, you were 36.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: Okay. So all of these new studies have come out
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: saying that if you have a baby at 40 or
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: after 40, you're like four times older. likelier to live
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: to 100 or whatever.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah I was surprised by that I feel like it's
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: one of those things where it's like the chicken or
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: the egg and I feel like if you're healthy enough
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: woman to have a baby after 40 chances are you're healthy.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: That might be true but I think it's something to
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: do with the estrogen you have more estrogen for longer
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: so you just have like does that make sense.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: I guess, but I didn't know that British people pronounced estrogen,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: estrogen until this moment. So I'm sorry. I'm just, I
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: was distracted by that. Is it just that you say
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: it weird or is that all British people?
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: I think every, I'm going to call my mom, but
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: I think everyone says estrogen. I'm not sure. Sometimes it's
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: just me and sometimes it's all of us.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, you could just, I mean, if you're wrong,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: you could just blame it on like, well, yeah. It's
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: just the Brit.
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: Now I want to know. Every time I have a
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: conversation like this, I text my group chat and they're like, no,
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: it's us too. I love it.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: I'm Greg Karumbas. Join Jim Garrity of National Review and
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: me each weekday for the 3 Martini Lunch podcast. We'll
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: give you the good, bad, and crazy news of the day,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: and lots of laughs too. Find us right here on
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: the Ricochet Audio Network at ricochet.com or wherever you get
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: your podcasts.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: So I want to talk about a piece that I'm
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: like really fired up this week that I wrote for
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: the daily wire about grandparent rights. Do you know anything
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: about grandparents rights in America?
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: Uh, we have discussed this at some point, but I
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: think it might have been after a podcast that we.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: I think we, we discussed it privately.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: Um, so that's all I know.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Okay. So in 30 States around the country, Grandparents have
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: legal rights to petition for visitation for their grandchildren. In practice,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: it means like, so I just want to preface my
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: jihad on grandparent rights is not based in like my
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: personal experience. My in-laws listen to this podcast. Y'all, this
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: is not about you. Mandels, this is not about you.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: And it's also not about my parents who are both dead.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: So I didn't have a relationship with my grandparents growing up,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: my mom's parents. My dad's parents were dead. My mom's
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: parents I did not have a relationship with because my
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: grandfather molested my mother and my grandmother knew about it.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: And so I heard about grandparents' rights because there's cases around.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: And I was so bothered by it because I thought
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: about my grandparents. And the fact that like my grandparents
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: could have sued under these laws, like my grandparents could
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: have sued my mom for visitation. And my mom, who
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: was like a single mom, barely keeping like the lights on, literally,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: would not have had enough money to fight her parents
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: on this and would have had to succumb to allowing
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: them visitation. I just, I think it's wild. So I
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: wrote this piece about, so in Florida at a campaign rally,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Byron Donalds was asked by this like crying boomer, like, I.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: Haven't seen my grandchildren since August, the first week of August.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: And my daughter's being petty. And I just want to
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: know what federal legislation can be made. And I talked
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: to my representative about it and we're working on it.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: And I heard that and I was like, okay, you
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: have not seen your grandchildren in seven weeks. And here's
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: what you've done so far. You've spoken to a United
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: States representative's office about legally compelling your daughter to see
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: your grandchild. And you're now crying in front of a
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: thousand people at this rally that's being taped in front
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: of a candidate for governor about passing a law in
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Florida for your rights. Like, I don't know who this
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: daughter is, but I support her because I don't think
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: she was being petty.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I don't know.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: So here's, it's two separate questions in my mind. Is
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: it ethical and moral and good that people are estranging themselves,
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: going no contact from their parents? Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: That's one question. A second question is like, Should grandparents
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: have legal recourse to bring people to court and force
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: them to pay tens of thousands of dollars to defend
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: their right to say like, I don't want to see you.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: I don't think this is good for us. That second
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: bucket is what I'm like deeply uncomfortable with.
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: Me too. But I do think that there are some really,
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: really therapy brained millennials on earth that, cut people off
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: for very minor, minor things or sometimes no reason at all.
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: And that scares me because the fact that I could
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: just like, if I decided that my mother wasn't a
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: very good mother and that I was annoyed about something
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: she did in my childhood, I could just have her
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: never see her grandchildren again very easily. And that's really sad.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: It's sad, but like, do I think that she should
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: be able to sue me? Probably not.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: No.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: No.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: And also like, I wish I could talk to the
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: grandmother to say like, your daughter might need some cool
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: down time. And you have now guaranteed yourself an extended estrangement.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Because if I were that daughter, I would say my
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: mom is pursuing legal recourse here. I don't feel safe.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Like there are instances where, so 30 states around the
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: country have these rights and some of them, it bases
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: it on the pre on like preexisting relationship. And so
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: they say like, you know, the grandchild has had a
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: relationship and they've seen the grandmother every week for four years.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: And so to me, if I were that daughter, I
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: would be like, we're going to see you a lot
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: less frequently because we're setting that precedent that like, you
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: are not that important in this child's life. Because if
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: you do take legal action against me, the precedent is
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: she only sees her every five months anyway. Like, if
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: you are putting our relationship in a position where I
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: have to be on defense legally, that's not a relationship
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: that you're going to enjoy. And personally, if someone talked
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: about suing me, that would be the end of our relationship.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: Well, particularly on TV as well. Like that's really untakeable. Yeah.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And thankfully for this daughter in Florida, actually grandparents'
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: rights pretty much don't exist. And so this woman just like,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: bought herself no relationship with her grandson.
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: Did you speak to anybody for the piece that is
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: going through this?
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: I have, but off the record. And they directed me,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: there was like one case that I talked about in
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Idaho where, I want to talk about two cases actually.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: So there's this case in Idaho, it went to the
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Idaho Supreme Court and the Idaho Supreme Court ruled in
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: favor of the parents, but it cost them $ 50, 000 to
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: get to the Idaho Supreme Court. So basically these parents
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: and grandparents, co-owned a house in California together. And the
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: parents were like, it was just repeated violations of like
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: boundaries that they set where they said like, yes, you
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: can bring our kids to the park, but like, we're
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: not okay with like an extravagant play date and you
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: can take them overnight and bring them back at noon.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: And the end result was like, grandparents brought them back
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: two days later and they had brought them to Disneyland.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: And they were like, that wasn't, the opposite of what
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: we told you to do. And so it was like
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: constant stuff like that, where they just ignored the parents
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: and acted like they had full rights to do whatever
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: they wanted with the kids, where the parents decided like,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: we're going to move to Idaho because we can afford
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: to buy a house in Idaho. We're going to sell
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: our share of that house that we co-own in California together.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: And like, we need some space here. And the grandparents
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: responded to that not by apologizing and whatever, but by
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: suing their children. And it cost them $ 50, 000 to be like, no,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: you can't just... And even in the Idaho, as they
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: were going through all the appeals courts and everything, every
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: ruling was like, the parents are right. These grandparents repeatedly
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: violated their boundaries and did so wantonly and unapologetically.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: It took appeal after appeal after appeal until it got
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: to the Supreme court, cost them 50 grand for the
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Idaho Supreme court to say like, parents are in charge
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: of their children's upbringing. Like that's it. That's where the
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: buck stops. These are all healthy relationships. Like it's not
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: like the parents are drug addicts or whatever. Like everyone's
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: a fit parent here and fit parents get to decide
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: the boundaries that they set. And sometimes the grandparents are
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: not going to like it.
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: I would love to speak to the grandparents about, their
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: perspective because it's like even best case scenario like what
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: do they gain from this because say you have legally
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: like accepted visitation days or whatever like legally enforceable visitation
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: days you've still sued your your children it's not going
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: to be happy it's not going to be fun you
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: know this is going to be like an elephant in the.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Room in my mind and I've actually I've talked about
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: this with my in-laws before because I've personally been bothered
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: by this for a long time and I wanted to
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: like clear the air with my in-laws that like I'm
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: never talking about you guys. And they at first were like,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: we don't like how upset you are. And I was like, okay,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: but here's the thing. If God forbid Seth died tomorrow
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: and I cut you off from our kids, you would
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: be devastated. Would you ever sue me? And they were like, no,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: of course not. Your husband just died. And I'm like, yeah,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: that's like the people who avail themselves of these laws
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: are the baddies. The ones who are sad and like,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: you know, sympathetic are the ones who would never do this,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: who would never sue their children or their child's, you know, spouse.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: It's sad. So that's one case in Oregon, or I'm sorry, Idaho.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Second case is in Virginia. There's a law in Virginia
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: that if someone, if someone, if a spouse dies, their
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: parental rights are granted to their children, to their parents rather.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: So like if Seth, God forbid, died, his parents now
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: have his parental rights.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: What? Yeah. That's crazy.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: So the result of that is there's a case in
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Virginia where a husband killed himself in front of his
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: children and his wife. Okay. His parents blamed the wife
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: for him doing it. So at every opportunity, the grandparents
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: told their grandchildren that You know it's because of your
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: mom that your dad's not here. And that your dad
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: did that. And so mom decided, like, I don't think
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: that this is healthy for my children to be around
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: their grandparents anymore. But the grandparents sued. And she didn't
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: have enough money to fight them.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: That's crazy.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Because she's a single mom now.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: And so every time people are like, well, in the
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: case of where one spouse dies and then they're cut
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: off from their their dead parents, parents, I'm like, okay,
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: people lose their mind when their kid dies and they
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: may not behave like they did before their kid died.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: Like you get to decide in all circumstances, what's best
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: for your children. Even if your spouse has died, like
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: you can't violate the parental rights of a widow and
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: a widower because they've, their spouse has died.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: That's not how life works. And so I like, So anyway,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: now this family in Virginia, the grandparents still have visitation
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: rights every other weekend, like they would if it was
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: their dad. So they see their grandparents every other weekend
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: and every other weekend for three years. I don't know
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: how long it is now, but it's years now. They
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: hear from their grandparents, you know, your mom.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: Is the reason. Yeah.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: Let's ask if a GoFundMe for that woman. That's awful.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: It's awful. And so it's just like, I don't think
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: that people realize that like it costs a lot of
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: money to defend yourself in court. And so these rights
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: give people the right to drag you to court. And
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: that is not that's not money you get back if
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: you win.
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: Particularly in the case of like this is a generational thing,
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: mainly between. boomers and millennials because yes and boomers are
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: bored boomers love to sue and.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Have a lot of money yeah you know what else
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: bothers me is that in this circumstance the grandparents have
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: rights quote unquote but they have no responsibilities so like
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: your parents or grandparents can drag you to court and
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: say like we demand visitation but that visitation is not
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: linked to like okay well then you You pay me
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: child support then. Yeah. If this is how it works,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: then like.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: Wait, really? Yeah.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: No.
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: That seems like an incredible oversight of the law. Like,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: I wonder why this was put into place. Do you
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: know why this was put into place anyway?
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: And it's in a lot of red states because rich
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: boomers are the donors. And so they go to these
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: legislatures and they have sob stories and like, Byron Donalds
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: fell for it, by the way. This woman is sobbing
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: in front of him, and he was like, let's get
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: that woman's number. Because you feel sympathetic. I think a
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: lot of the legislators don't think about what this law
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: looks like in reality. And the reality is people are
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: spending tens of thousands of dollars or not, or they
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: have to just surrender. And I think about my mom,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: for example. I didn't have really much of a relationship
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: with her parents growing up. there's no documentation of my
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: mom's abuse. Like there was, it would have just been like,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: they brought her to court and my mom would have
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: said this thing out loud. And they would have been like,
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: she's just saying that. Like, there's no evidence of that.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: There's never been a report. There's not, there's no documentation
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: of that. And my mom would have had to open
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: her therapy notes in discovery. And then like, I told
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: my therapist three years ago about this. And then like,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: it becomes like this whole horrible thing where like, Yeah,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: it's sad that my mom was estranged from her parents. But, like,
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: she shouldn't have to defend that right to be estranged
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: from her parents in a court of law to the
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: tune of tens of thousands of dollars.
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: 100%. Yeah, that is, that seems like a really crazy oversight. Yeah.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I contacted a member of Congress about this
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: because there was, like, whispers that, like, this person was
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: thinking about doing it. And they were like, we don't
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: really know that much about this. And I'm like, okay.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to write about it. I'm going to
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: talk about it because like clearly like this is and
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: I think it's going to be an issue. I think,
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: you know, we spent years as conservatives yelling about parental
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: rights and like Moms for Liberty has like the parental
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: rights thing. And by the way, Byron Donald signed that
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: parental rights thing. And so like what's the limiting principle?
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Like it's easy to say we we respect a parent's
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: right to direct the upbringing of their children when it
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: comes to like a woke teacher, right? But like, what
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: about when it's a crying grandma? And so I personally,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I would really like Byron Donalds to have had a
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: better answer instead of let's have my people talk about
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: it and see if we can have some legislation. That
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: scared the bejesus out of me.
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that is really terrifying. Particularly when, I mean, what
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: we need is both of those mothers, the grandmother and
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: the mother, to sit in a room and talk about
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: what actually happened and what led to this.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: But I have a feeling she claimed that it was
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: because she refused to babysit. Like, I feel like there
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: was more to the story. Yeah.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: Wait, wasn't there a viral post the other day about
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: a boomer refusing to babysit?
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: I do think we disagree on this because we've talked
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: about this before, but I think boomers should babysit. I know.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: I don't think that anyone should be compelled. Like, i've
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: had six kids.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: I think they should want to it would upset me
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: so much that they wouldn't want to and i'm not
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: saying like five days a week yeah yeah like that
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: is not like babysitting that is like child care you
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: know that's like a childminder or nanny or whatever but
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: like a couple hours a week just like don't be
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: difficult you know.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: I don't want to do like like I have six kids.
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's going to be hard for you. I don't
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: know what you're going to do. But I'm sure you're
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: going to say yes a lot.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, in some circumstances, like if a kid is
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: having surgery, yeah, I'll watch your other kids. Yeah, for sure.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: But like, mom, we want a weekly date night. Well,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: if all my kids want a weekly date night, then
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: I don't have any nights.
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: Maybe you could rotate it. Every six weeks. Yes, you
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: have to. Or I'm going to do it for your kids.
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: Tell them to call me. Tell them to call me.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: Oh my God, you are going to be the worst
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: old person. You are going to be horrible.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: I did my duty. I raised my kids.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: I want to go to Thailand and sit on a
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: beach in Bali.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: I know that Bali and Thailand are two different places, guys. Okay.
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: I hate this. This surprises me.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: I did it. No, I'm going to be, I will
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: love my grandchildren, but like, I'm not once a week
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: turns into, I literally do not have a single night
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: where I'm not taking care of a child.
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: What if your, each of your kids have six.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Kids? 36 grandchildren.
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: That's really crazy.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: You're not getting Hanukkah presents, individual presents. I'm sorry. Everyone
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: gets $ 10.
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: But, I think what surprises people is, cause you don't
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: think you can love anything more than your child. My
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: mother definitely loves my children more than me. Like a
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: hundred percent.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: A hundred percent.
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, I don't think my mom would feel
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: that way about my kids. My mom was also like, not, I,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: so I feel, and this, this is maybe like weird
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: and surprising from a mom of six, but like, I
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: don't love the baby years. Like, That's the other thing. Like,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: I feel like I was, I did my duty. Like,
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: I put in the time. And it was not pleasant
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: time for the first three years of all of my
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: kids' lives. And once they hit three, I'm like, yeah.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: And now, like, it's nothing but fun. I love my 13-year-old.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: I love my, like, I love spending time with my
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: older kids. And now my youngest kid, I also love
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: spending time with. Like, there's not a kid that I'm like, oh,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: my God, I'm so tired. yeah it's just it's just
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: all the fun all the time and there's six of
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: them i love someone in the house that i like
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: But what i will say i love babies but i
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: really don't like the six to nine month age which
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: is what the youngest is now it sucks it's like
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: it's so annoying because like she really wants to move
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: she can see her sister moving all the time and
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: like she can't move yeah She can't do anything. So
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: she just has to hold it around. She has to
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: be constantly entertained. I don't like six to nine months.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: I don't either.
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: But then it gets a lot more fun at nine. Yeah, yeah.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: And wait until you hit 13. Like my daughter is
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: turning 13 in a couple days. She's my bestie. I
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: love her. I love spending time with her. It's delightful.
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: I love two. Two right now, Daphne has just learned
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: to say like, go away, mama, go away. And it's
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: just so cute.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's fun when they can, like, full sentence
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: talk to you and have thoughts and have, like, jokes.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: It's amazing. So we have a guy in our house
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: right now who's checking our, like, heating and cooling system.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: And all of my kids were sitting at the table
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: eating lunch, like, literally 10 minutes before we started recording.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: And he was walking out the door, and our dog
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: started barking at him. And I yelled what I thought.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: tried to say the dog's name, but I actually accidentally
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: yelled the technician's name.
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, Oh my God, I'm so sorry.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I yelled at my dog and the wrong name came out.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: And five of my kids, cause my youngest is at
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: preschool right now. My five older kids were all like, yeah, sorry.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: She says the wrong name all the time. Welcome to it.
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: And it was, it was so funny. It was like
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: a whole group of them sitting around the table laughing
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: and He's like, and I was like, this is what
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: I wanted. I wanted a five kids sitting around making
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: fun of me. I wanted this. Yeah. I'm here for it.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: That's why I have to have more.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: Three at least. Yes.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ben Sass. And I'm Chris Dyer-Walt. And this
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: is Not Dead Yet. We're all dying, but some of
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: us have been brought face-to-face with that reality.
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: However long each of us have to do it, though,
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: we all want to live a good life.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: One with meaning, love, and joy. And our guests are
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: here to help us do exactly that. Now available for
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: download and streaming at Ricochet.com.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: Ricochet.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Join the conversation.
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: Let's go back to the GQ piece because this is
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: what I think he did very well. I think that
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: he was a victim of his headline.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: I have been that before.
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: Yes. Actually, what is your worst headline that you've ever had?
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: So can I tell you?
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Baya Unger Sargan was my editor at The Forward. The
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: one and only Only time in my entire career I
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: suggested a headline. And so people like would always be like, well,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: the editor picks it. And Batya was ready to fall
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: on her sword and be like, and I'm like, no, Batya.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: It was my idea. The headline is, we should befriend neo-Nazis.
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: And then I wrote a follow-up piece a year later.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: how the angry left turned me into a neo-Nazi. That
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: was the second time I wrote my own headline. I've
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: only written two headlines in my whole career and it
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: was those two. And the second one, Batya, she's so funny.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: She WhatsAppped Seth and was like, am I allowed to
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: do this? She asked my husband for permission to do
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: the second headline.
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: Did he say yes?
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: No, he said no.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: I didn't think he would say yes.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: He said, no, she cannot do that. And I said,
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: you are both overruled. And Batya said- Okay.
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: Oh my God.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: She put it up.
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: Oh my God. Did you get more flack for the
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: first or the second?
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: The first.
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: Okay. The first. My, my worst headline was the Daily Mail,
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: which I should have expected, which I wrote a piece
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: about having a baby and they put as the headline.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, you've probably seen it. It's like, I hate
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: childless millennial cat ladies.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: Whatever.
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: Anyway, and it's the front page of the Daily Mail. Actually,
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: somebody got it framed for me. And I didn't know
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: it was going to be front page. Never mind, I
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: didn't know that was going to be the headline. And
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: they sent me a proof like the night before with
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: that headline. And I was like, I think it's probably
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: the first time I've ever done this where I was like, hey,
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: you cannot have this headline. You have to change this.
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: And I just got an email back from them and
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: they were like, yeah, that's not really how it works.
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: You don't get to decide that. Like we decide that.
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: And I was like, but I have childless millennial friends
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: who are going to hate me. And also that's not
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: what the piece says. And they were like, yeah, it
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: just doesn't really work like that. We get to say
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: whatever we want.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: So it's funny. There was a different piece that I
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: wrote at the Forward where it was very similar. The
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: editor chose a headline that was, in total opposite of
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: what I wrote right and I actually I I threatened
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: her and we've never spoken again and I don't write
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: for the forward anymore.
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: Did they put up the headline.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: So she put up the headline I never I never
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: like I don't ask what the headline is going to
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: be and so she put it up this was after
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: Batya left so and this editor actually isn't even there
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: anymore So she put up the headline that was totally
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: opposite of the of the argument. And it was it
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: was negative. So my piece was positive about my husband's
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: hometown of Lakewood, New Jersey. And and the piece was
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: slamming Lakewood and like my in-laws still lived there. His
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: grandparents still lived there. They were very influential people in
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: the community. Like, I can't write a negative piece about, like,
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: a town that, like, his grandparents have, like, multiple synagogues
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: named after them and, like, whatever. And so I emailed her.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: I was like, this is completely unacceptable. It needs to
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: be changed right now. And she said no. And I replied.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: And I cc'd the editor-in-chief. And I said, if it's
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: not changed in the next hour, I will be making
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: a public statement on Twitter.
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: Oh, my God.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: I said, like, this is unacceptable. It is completely the
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: opposite of the argument of my piece. That's so weird.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: And if you refuse to change the headline, I will
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: be making a public statement about it. And let me
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: know what you decide. And she emailed me back a
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: half an hour later and said, we've decided to change it,
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: but we don't like being threatened. I said. Well, don't
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: talk crap. Sorry.
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: That's crazy.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: Um yeah so.
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: I think that this GQ piece was the victim of
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: a bad headline because I don't actually think he was
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: saying like this is really hard I think what he
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: was trying to say is this is very different and
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: I think it's true and I don't even think it's
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: like double as hard like my second baby is the
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: easiest baby in the world it's not like she brings
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: like a lot of day-to-day like torment and drama to
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: my life but it's just different yeah having one child
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: is is like It's like a handbag. It's not really
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: a lifestyle change.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, I disagree actually. Really?
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, my second was a really hard baby. So
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I have like an accurate picture,
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: but I, I was really shook having a kid. Like
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: it changed. Yeah.
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: First one. Right.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: It was like, and the second one, you know, I
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: thought the second one, even as difficult as he was an,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, was he difficult? I still think that
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: was easier. And like my third, forget it. Like that
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: was so easy also. He was an easy baby though.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: So I don't know.
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: Was your first child very difficult or was it just
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: having a child?
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: It was just having a child. She was very easy.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: And bless my heart, like the things I thought were hard,
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: I really got put in my place by my second.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Like my second was awful. He cried nonstop for the
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: first week. he cried pretty much nonstop for like 10 months.
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: That was definitely too. But I think, I think what,
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: why I found the transition easier than two is because
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: I did my, I was telling somebody like my experience
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: the other day and they were like, Oh, you did
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: your own like CBT therapy. You just like reframed the
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: hard day to day things. It's like, easy and you
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: just changed your brain chemistry and like convince yourself that
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: it was like, yeah, that's basically what I, what I did,
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: what we both did. And that really helped. Yeah. Yeah.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, I like, I only really had one hard
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: baby and it was my second and he had a
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: good reason by the way, to be like, to be
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: angry and upset. And like he had food allergies that
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: we didn't know about. Like he fair bud.
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think it got harder. Yeah. I
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: want to spend just the last like 15 minutes of
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: the show talking about your piece. You went to, the
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: reason you weren't on the show last week, I think
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: we were thinking about having you on and then we
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: weren't able to figure it out. You went to California.
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: I was in California. For what?
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: I was at SlutCon. SlutCon.
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: Which frames itself as a sex education conference for men,
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: which I think is kind of true. I mean, it's been,
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: have you read about this at all online?
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not at all. Really?
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: I feel like this has been like, we must have
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: very different feeds. So it is the brainchild of Ayla.
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: Have you heard of Ayla?
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: No, I haven't.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: Oh my God.
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: I'm too online. She is a sex worker and sex
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: researcher and just kind of public intellectual who conducts studies
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: about sex and relationships and men. And she basically came
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: to the conclusion that we have kind of destroyed men
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: in the last 10 years. And we have told them
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: that horniness is evil and they feel like they cannot
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: be honest with women about what they want. So everything
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: turns into this like weird charade where men want to
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: spark up a conversation with a woman, but they're not
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: allowed to be honest about how they feel, if they're
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: attracted to them, whatever, whatever, whatever. So she has organized,
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: and this was the second one, it started last year,
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: this sex education conference for men where men pay to
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: come in. The ticket costs between 3,000 and 20,000 or 19, maybe.
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: And when they get into the doors, everything kind of changes.
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: They are in slut con world. So they have paid
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: sometimes tens of thousands for these tickets. And there's about
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: a hundred men. And then there are a hundred flirt
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: girls who enter for free, who are volunteers. Some of
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: them even get paid and their job is to be
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: flirted with and flirt with men who are not used
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: to flirting or being flirted with. A lot of the men,
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: they're extremely autistic.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: I was literally just about to say, this is social
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: training for autist men.
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: About 50% of the men, yeah.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: No, 98%.
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: No, no, no. So about 50% of the men are autistic,
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: like visibly. Like they want to throw up rather than
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: look at a woman in the eye. It's very sweet.
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: It's actually weird. wholesome. I feel very defensive.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: It should be called SlutCon.
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: I know, I know.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: They need to change the name.
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: They're going to change the name. It starts as like
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: a joke and then it's actually turned into like a
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: pretty serious thing. So I would say about half the
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: men are autistic virgins, never kissed a girl, never talked
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: to a woman. And the other half are kind of
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: They've had some experience with women, but, like, they're hitting
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: a wall somewhere and they don't know what they're doing wrong.
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: So there's a lot of triggers.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: Would you volunteer for this?
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: What?
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: I would volunteer for this. Bless their hearts. It's great.
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: It's actually great. Like, I kind of want to go
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: again and be a flirt girl because I think it's
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: just an incredible space. They call it a container. Like,
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: nothing spills outside. Like, in this place, you are safe.
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: You're not going to get cancelled. You're not going to
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: get whatever. Yeah. You can be awkward. You can fumble.
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: You can, you know, like.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like this.
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: I think it's really interesting. And I think that watching
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: people turn on and turn off flirting was really fascinating.
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: Kind of cringy. Like as a British, like awkward person,
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: I could just probably never do the job of a
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: flirt girl very well. But it was really interesting to
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: see these men who feel shunned by society and And
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: feel like they are being manipulative if they flirt with
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: a woman or feeling like they are coercing a woman
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: into something if they tell them what they want.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: It's so interesting. So I have a number of single
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: friends who I would never say it and I would
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: never do it, but I want to coach them. Like
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: I've seen them in social situations and I'm like, well,
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: that's why you're single.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: You come off angry.
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: It's because you're like trying to.
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: Like physical repulsion that you don't know you're giving off.
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: There was a couple of good classes for this. So
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: there was one called, so you've been called a creep
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: and it was conducted by this autistic orgy organizer, fascinating woman.
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: She was actually very good. She was very kind and
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: caring whilst also letting these guys know. So everybody in
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: the class was, had been called a creep in some
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: way and didn't know what they were doing to make
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: women feel uncomfortable. And one guy put his hand up
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: and he's like, well, the problem with the word creep
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: now is it's like militarized by women who just think
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: I'm ugly or they don't like me. And Greta was like, yeah,
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: good point. Like sometimes that might happen. Like it's actually
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: just a woman not being attracted to you and she
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: calls you a creep or whatever. But actually, a lot
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: of the stuff that you're doing right now is off-putting.
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: And I can see that. And I don't think you're
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: a creep. I just think that you are giving off
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: a very angry and whatever. And it was really good
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: to watch this.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: It's really healthy.
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: It's funny because I was talking to a friend. And
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: we have a lot of listeners, actually, who work in
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: this building. the New York post and Fox and like
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: all of the, all the subsidiaries of Rupert Murdoch are
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: all in the same building on sixth Avenue in New York.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: And I was joking with a single friend who works
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: at one of those companies. Why doesn't, why don't they
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: do a speed dating for like anyone who works in
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: the building? Like all the, everyone conservative who cares about
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: all the work in the same very large building.
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: It's I'm sure an HR nightmare, but like, Just do
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: speed dating in the lobby on like a Friday night
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: where everyone just mingles and it's speed dating. And I
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: think it would be very healthy.
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: Well, this is why I feel very defensive of SlutCon.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you should.
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: There are a lot of people who find it morally repugnant.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: No, you're not encouraging people to sleep. That's not what
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: you're doing. You're teaching people how to pair off. and
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: giving them real advice and guidance into how to do that.
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: And I think conservatives are very bad at this, which
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: is why I laugh at people who are so critical
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: of SlutCon and things similar to that. I'm like, well,
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: at least they're trying. What are you doing? You know? Like,
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: what are you doing for these autistic, extremely physically off-putting
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: people who, outside of a world like SlutCon... are never
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: going to be kissed. They're never going to find somebody.
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: They're never going to flirt. Like how sad. I know.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: And sometimes they need to be told like, you need
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: to wear deodorant.
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So like there was one class in SlutCon, which
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: was like a men's fashion live Q & A. The
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: men would get on stage one by one and the
• 54:14
  Speaker 4: women would be like, tuck in your shirt, put a
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: belt on. And they would be like props and we
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: would teach them how to look more attractive with what
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: they already had. Yeah.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: This is so healthy.
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: I know. I know.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: I went into this ready to make fun of this.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: Let's branch this out across the country.
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: Yes. Well, it's funny because a lot of people hate
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: SlutCon because of who it's run by. It's run by
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: sex workers, basically. Or if not sex workers, like, orgy
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: enthusiasts in the bay area it's like a very weird
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: subculture yeah that i'm not down with it it's not
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: great but like you know what let's.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: Have a wholesome version of slut con.
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah let's do it ourselves let's do it.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: Ourselves all right everyone email car and i about you
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: being involved in a in a east coast non-slutty slut con.
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: That's actually incredible i would do this Do.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: You think the free press would do it? Because you're
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: writing about this for the free press, right?
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: Yes, I am. I'm hoping that the piece is going
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: to be out by the time this is. Because I
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: feel like I'm giving a lot of it away.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: The free press does events. Come on, guys.
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: That would be great. I mean, I do just think
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: that anybody who is critical of something like this, whether
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: you don't like the specific players or whatever, like, do something.
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: This is actually, even if, so one of the other
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: things that people say about it is like, you're pushing
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: degeneracy on people. Like people are going to have sex
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: at SlutCon. A lot of people did have sex at SlutCon.
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: I will say that. So Ayla basically organized like a
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: questionnaire when you enter and when you leave. And she
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: compared the two data sets. And 30% of SlutCon attendees
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: had sex, which is very interesting.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: But if they all were like versions.
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, isn't that nice?
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: One guy. I can't believe I'm saying this. One guy
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: lost his virginity. He was extremely autistic. Like probably one
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: of the most like visibly like autistic guys there. He
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: lost his virginity. He tore his franulum and ended up
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: in the hospital. But he was still very happy about it.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: I'm sure.
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: I know. I know. I know.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: So I feel like we've changed each other's minds. I hope.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: You have changed my mind on SlutCon.
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: I am. Yeah. Yeah.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: I changed my mind.
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: Actually, I am.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: I am. I'm not only OK with SlutCon. I want
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: to start my own version.
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: Oh, my God. I love this. I'm going to edit
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: my piece now. I mean, Bethany Mantel, conservative commentator. You
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: have changed my mind on Grandparents. I do think it's
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: sad that some people will fall through the cracks, but
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: that's life. Yeah.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean there needs to be a legal solution
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: for it.
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: Government doesn't solve things.
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: Yes. It's true. It's true. Small government. Amen.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: All right, guys, don't forget to hit subscribe and leave
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: us a review. And if you could just like comment,
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: like Cara, please be on like more episodes. Cause we
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: miss you. That would help my, I love you. This
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: was so fun.
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: Well, I have no husband all week, so I can
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: be around more, if anything.
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: Okay. I don't know how that works, but let's do it.
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: Because he's unemployed right now. He's like, Cara, do you
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: want to go for lunch? Cara, do you want to
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: go for dinner? Cara, do you want to do this?
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: He takes up all my time. All right.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Until next week, guys. Saddle up. Ricochet.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: Join the conversation.