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Dear Esther · The Long and Short of It

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  Thanks for checking out the long and short.
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  Of it podcast you. Can find us on all good podcast
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  platforms. Please consider following or
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  subscribing. We hope you enjoy the show.
• 0:15
  Hello and welcome to the Long and Short of It, the podcast
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  where we discuss each of the games on the Open Critic Top 100
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  list. My name's Dan and I'm joined by.
• 0:27
  This is Lawrence. Welcome to the podcast.
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  Welcome. To the podcast 1 and all How are
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  we today? Very well, how are you?
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  Yes, I'm good. Saw you.
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  Saw you at the weekend for machines, didn't I?
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  You did. How'd your your stag do?
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  Yes. Which was, I'd say it wasn't, it
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  was an OTT, was it? It was relatively restrained.
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  There was no no craziness. No, it was good, it was
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  enjoyable. It was.
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  It was calm, relaxed. We had a few drinks, we did a
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  bit of caving. Not doing that ever again.
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  Met met the world famous Pat Butcher from EastEnders.
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  That's right, Pam St Clements. For those not in the know.
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  Yeah, that's correct. Ken Caving.
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  With us, that was good. I've I've decided that I'm never
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  going caving again, ever in my entire.
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  Life. I've heard that you really
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  enjoyed it and that you're now going to take it up as your
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  favourite pastime I. Had a nice time.
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  However, as we've mentioned a couple of times on the podcast,
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  I'm very tall and unfortunately going into caves when you're
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  very tall, it's just not a good time.
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  Specifically, when you don't follow the directions of the
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  instructor and you go off in your own directions and end up
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  crawling through areas that you're not supposed to be going
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  because that's very tight. And yes, it was a little bit too
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  much adventure for for myself, I must admit.
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  Good time was hard. It was, it was sort of more of a
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  a pure caving experience than I'd envisioned, but yeah.
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  Yeah. Well, I think because I mean,
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  you're, you're what you're, I think you're a bit under a foot
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  under me, aren't you? And I think even you struggled
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  in a few areas. Yeah, it was just like, yeah, it
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  was tight. It was however I might I might
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  pop them on our Instagram page if anyone's interested.
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  There is a video of Dan crawling through a very, very, very, very
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  small gap that I think only a handful of people will probably
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  be able to do, and it looks like the most atrocious thing I've
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  ever seen in my entire life. And it was.
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  And it was that because I was sag, I had to do that.
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  I was dead. And if you dare me to do
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  something, for better or worse, I'd do it.
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  That's right. So.
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  Yeah, check. That out was your stag.
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  Game for the I will for the listener I.
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  Shall. From one cave to another cave.
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  We're actually doing a game this week that is not the game that
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  we plan to do. So things are a little bit
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  chaotic at the moment. Obviously with the lead up to
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  the wedding, which is in just over 2 weeks, we're kind of
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  muddling through a bit. But we are playing games and we
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  are releasing episodes. We're going to try and get at
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  least one more out before the wedding.
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  Yeah, we should be able to, shouldn't we?
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  Yeah, maybe another short one as well.
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  So we'll see how we get on. But yes.
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  Before you shoot Jason. Yes, everyone's favourite.
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  Yes, Jason. So today we're talking about a
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  bit of a bit of a different game, which I suggested We're
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  talking about Dear Ester, which was the independent game, which
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  was originally a Half Life 2 mod, as was what was that other
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  game that we did the the The Stanley Parable.
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  All right, yes. Yes, that was also originally a
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  Half Life 2 mod. So the commercial release of
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  Dear Ester was in the year 2012 and then the Landmark Edition
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  was released in the year 2016. So the commercial release on
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  Metacritic notes not open critic really got a 75 out of 100.
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  It's quite divisive game. I'm going to just come out and
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  say it that it may not be my favourite game ever, but I I
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  quite like Dear Ester. So for the uninitiated, Dear
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  Ester is a quote unquote walking simulator.
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  So what is a walking simulator for those not in the know?
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  Can we just confirm as well this game isn't in the open critic
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  top 100? No, it's not in the Open Next
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  Top 100. This is a bonus.
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  Yeah, cool. So a walking simulator is
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  usually a first person experience game, if you want to
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  call it that, where you have full control over your
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  character. But like there's no, there's no
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  gameplay as such. There's no platforming usually,
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  there's no shooting, there's no driving.
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  It is basically it's kind of like you experience a narration
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  whilst walking through an environment.
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  Yeah, which is why, like you say, it's they can be quite
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  controversial because some people wouldn't really consider
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  them as games, which I understand.
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  And I would probably say that games like this are more of a
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  narrative experience rather than a video game per SE.
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  And I mean, this is only the second walking simulator that
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  I've ever played, so that they are a very different kind of
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  experience compared to what we would usually cover on the
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  podcast. Yeah, they're a different pace.
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  They're quite relaxed, which to be quite honest, suits me down
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  to the ground at times. Yeah.
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  So they're very measured. And as you say, there are no
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  additional layers beyond sort of walking around in first person,
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  zooming in on objects, and there are some variables in other
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  walking simulators, but here it quite literally is that.
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  So for the avid listener, do you have any history with this game?
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  Where did you first hear about Dear Ester?
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  I don't know where I first heard about it.
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  It's one of those games, I'm going to refer to it as a game
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  for the rest of the podcast just for ease.
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  But I do see this is more of like a a narrative experience,
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  like I say. No, you've got to refer to it as
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  a narrative. Experience as a narrative
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  experience. The rest of your life.
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  Just so I can sound like a wanker.
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  Yes. Oh wow.
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  I think that was the first use of language we've ever had on
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  the on the podcast. Brilliant.
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  No, I think we've, I feel that that word is, is borderline.
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  I feel that we've, I think we might have maybe sworn once on
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  the podcast, perhaps it's very controversial.
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  Not for, yeah. Well, quite.
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  However I think that you can drop the F bomb and stuff on
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  Netflix now like once and it'd still be classed as a 12.
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  So you know, we've never gone that far.
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  So I think it's fine. But yeah, so I I'd heard of it
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  and I know about it and I know about walking simulators.
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  Like I say, I've played one walking simulator in the past.
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  This is the second. And other than that, I didn't
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  know anything about it other than it was a famous walking
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  simulator. So this was my first exposure to
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  it. I didn't know what it was about.
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  I didn't know the background of it, I didn't know anything.
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  So it went in completely blind on this one.
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  Really. That's sometimes those are the
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  best episodes though, aren't they?
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  Because yeah, it's just completely unknown.
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  Yeah, what about you? I I think I first heard about
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  Dear Esther in the do you remember Total Biscuit?
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he did a video about it and I
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  think he kind of ripped it to shreds.
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  Passed away now I believe, but yeah.
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  I was going to say he had he had cancer, didn't he?
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  Yeah, which is a shame. Obviously, I quite enjoyed some
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  of his stuff. But yeah, he did completely
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  shred from what I remember, Dear Esther.
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  And I remember when this came out, there was a lot of
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  commercially, there's a lot of controversy because everyone was
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  asking the question, oh, what makes a game?
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  We'll come to that later on anyway.
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  But yes, history with the game apart from that I have, I have
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  played Dear Estar, I first purchased this game for the
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  PlayStation 4. So I was kind of dabbling when I
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  first got the PS4 and I saw this game, the Landmark edition.
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  I don't know if it was on offer, but I thought, yeah, you know
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  what, I'll give it a go. I'm not against walking
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  simulators. I think the pace can be quite
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  nice sometimes, and I enjoyed it, and I've completed it
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  probably another few times since then.
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  And every now and again I'll think about it.
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  And I think I just want to replay that.
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  And that's sort of where this episode, this bonus episode came
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  from. And it's a nice short game to
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  play. I mean, you're probably looking
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  at an hour and 20, something like that for the whole thing.
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  Yeah, it's not a long game. So where did you play this game
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  for the podcast please? The Xbox, I think it's the first
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  time I've turned my Xbox on in bloody ages.
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  But yeah, so got it on Xbox just because I found it a little bit
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  cheaper. Fair enough.
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  Which I feel that. I mean, we've talked a few times
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  about PlayStation being a good place for indie games, but I
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  feel that kind of lies with the PS3.
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  Yeah, maybe not so much the PS4. So I played it on Xbox.
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  Isn't it? Yeah, pretty much.
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  Unfortunately, this game isn't on any Nintendo consoles that I
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  could find anyway because. Yeah, that is a shame.
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  I did. I did go searching before the
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  playthrough actually. But it makes sense.
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  I mean, it's a game that came out what, yeah, 13 years ago,
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  what they did. Released.
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  On. What Remains of Edith Finch on
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  the switch so. It's just the only other walking
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  simulator that I've ever played. Correct.
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  Yes, it is. But we may be playing another
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  another one soon or maybe you'll play that.
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  But we'll see. Yes.
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  So I played the the PS4 version on my PS-5 Pro.
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  This is not a game that benefits from the PS-5 Pro, to be not
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  honest there, there is no, there's nothing going on behind
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  the scenes to take advantage of the extra power.
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  OK, so you sort of referenced it being a narrative experience
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  before dropping the W bomb. How is the story fed to the
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  player as you kind of work through this game?
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  It's kind of read to you, the narrator, who you later come to
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  think is one of the people being referenced during the game, but
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  it's read via letters. However, I don't know how real
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  the letters are in terms of if those letters were ever written
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  they wouldn't have been sent, or if it's just the the
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  protagonist. I suppose in this sense, writing
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  these letters in his head to someone called Esther.
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  But as you explore the area which the game takes place,
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  supposedly on an island in the Hebrides which is just off the
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  coast of Scotland. Have you ever been to the
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  Hebrides? No, I'd love to go.
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  It's amazing. I've been.
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  Sort of off the back of this game, actually, Yeah, yeah.
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  I went in 2015 I think with an ex-girlfriend.
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  We went to Orkney. I think the only thing that
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  deters me is that you have to not only drive up there, but
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  then catch a ferry to get across.
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  It's worth it though. Like we we found this place
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  called the Standing Stones of Steness, I think it's called.
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  Well, that sounds straight out of Lord of the Rings.
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  It it looks like, what's that place in Swindon where it's got
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  all the big rocks? You mean Stonehenge?
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  No, not Is it Stonehenge? Yeah, it is Stonehenge.
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  Stonehenge. Yeah, it looks a little bit like
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  Stonehenge. Where is it?
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  Can't think of the name, the place it'll come to me.
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  Yeah, but yeah, it looks like Stonehenge, but like it's just
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  deathly quiet. And there are these there are
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  these sheep in the area, and it's so quiet there that you can
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  actually hear them munching the grass.
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  It's a very cool place. I mean, Scotland's one of my
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  favourite places anyway, so going off the islands of it was
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  a joy. But yeah, digressing slightly.
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  But yes, this game takes place to some extent on a Hebridean
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  island. And you are as the Salisbury,
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So not far from like Swindon,
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  Wiltshire area. But yeah, so as the as the
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  protagonist, you are walking across this island and through
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  the caves of this island as the narration is read to you in
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  letter form. As we said, the the letters are
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  written to somebody called Esther, and as the game
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  progresses you learn more and more about what turns out to be
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  the narrator and the fact that this island isn't a real place.
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  Really. Yeah, that's definitely if it is
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  a real place. There are certainly aspects of
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  what happens that are surreal. Yeah, it's it's kind of
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  suggested that the island maybe does exist, but this experience
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  of it is within the protagonist's mind as he comes
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  to terms with some things. Now usually here we we jump to
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  gameplay as King, but I want to go straight to the voice acting
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  as provided by Nigel Carrington. I think I'm sort of going to
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  lead with this and then get your thoughts.
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  I think a massive, massive part of what makes this game great or
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  not great, I mean, arguably great is the voice work.
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  I think it's so, so well done, so well delivered.
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  And when I play this game, I get this feeling of Britain.
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  And it's not just in the Hebridean island, it's in the
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  stories about the M5 and driving down to is it Sandyford Junction
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  or something? Yeah, Sandyford Junction and
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  services. To Wolverhampton and Exeter it.
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  Just it just feels so, so British and it's like a Britain
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  that I feel nostalgic for. And I think a big part of that
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  is the wonderful voice acting. I really love the delivery here
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  and I just think it amps up in just the right places as you get
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  towards the end. So yeah, really for me, really.
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  Big tip of the hat to Mr Carrington.
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  What are your thoughts about the voice work?
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  Yeah, I mean, it is just what the one voice in the game
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  really, isn't it? Yeah, and it does.
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  I think that it portrays the character quite well and we
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  haven't really gone into full depth as to what the story is or
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  what the. The no, it's kind of hard to say
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  because there are so many pieces to it that there's not really a
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  coherence. No, the, the, the story that I
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  took away from it is that you play as the narrator who as he
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  goes through the island, he's making references to something
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  that's happened, an accident with a drunk driver.
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  And he's making references to two people, Jakobsen and
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  Donnelly. And how one of those people
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  basically was drink driving on the M5, which like you say, it
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  makes you nostalgic for or makes you think of England.
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  I I know the M5 very well because the M5 is literally a
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  minute away from. My house on the M5I.
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  Believe I do. I actually live in the middle.
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  I live at Sandyford Services. That's correct.
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  But yeah. And as the as the story
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  progresses, there are also references to the fact that
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  Esther, the person that you're writing the letters to has has
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  also she's died and that perhaps she was pregnant because you
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  find like scans, I think in one of the bothies.
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  I didn't see it myself. I kind of picked this up after
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  watching a video on it. And as well as the fact that
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  whenever you quote unquote die, you hear the sound of an
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  ultrasound and the narrator's saying come back.
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  And as the game progresses, you learn through kind of
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  environmental storytelling, seeing the things around you,
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  like car wreck pieces, photos, that the narrator is, I think
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  Jacobson and Donnelly is Esther. And they were a couple and they
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  were driving back together from a works event.
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  And Paul, the narrator, drank too much and got into an
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  accident on the M5. Esther, who was pregnant, died
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  at the scene. And later on, Paul takes his own
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  life because he can't comprehend what he's done.
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  And I feel that as the game progresses, the narration
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  changes. And like you said, that the
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  stakes kind of change in the delivery until at the end of the
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  game, you climb up this this radio tower and jump off, which
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  is obviously a like a reference to the fact that Paul took his
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  own life because of what happened.
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  And he turns into a bird so that he could be back with Esther.
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  And leading up to that point, the narration is getting not
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  frantic, but more intense. And then it kind of feels when
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  he's climbing up that ladder and he's made the decision as to
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  what he's going to do, he calms down again and accepts his fate
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  and then moves forward. So I think the narration in the
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  game's done very well and it is the main thing that makes the
• 19:31
  game. I wouldn't say compelling.
• 19:34
  I wouldn't call it a compelling game.
• 19:36
  No, because it's like. It is, but sometimes it's like
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  you say that's exactly what you want.
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  Yeah, but I'd say that the narration is what makes this.
• 19:46
  Game and the script, yeah. Yeah, yeah, the writing in the
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  in the delivery and obviously the world building and the.
• 19:53
  IRA, which is also. The devs created is awesome, but
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  it is in the writing and the scripts and we've we've said it
• 20:00
  a few times. That I can't remember what
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  episodes we've bought it up on, but sometimes the gameplay can
• 20:07
  be around all right, but as long as the writing and the story is
• 20:13
  there, it keeps you engaged. For some people anyway.
• 20:18
  I think we've said a few times I'm someone that's very, very
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  narratively driven in games. Gameplay can be here or there.
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  For me this feels. Like an old British play in in
• 20:32
  the way that it's written, in the way that it feels.
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  So yeah, British. And I think it probably holds a
• 20:42
  power more for British people because of that.
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  Or if you're a fan of Britain and the spiritual sequel to
• 20:52
  this, Everybody's Gone to the Rapture even more so.
• 20:58
  It's so powerfully, quintessentially British.
• 21:02
  They remind you of a Britain that maybe only exists in your
• 21:06
  imagination, but it just feels like a place from your
• 21:08
  childhood. I've I've not played that.
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  I know from when I was living in Essex when I was a drama school
• 21:18
  friend and listener of the podcast James, I think he played
• 21:22
  Everybody's Gone to the Rapture and I could be wrong.
• 21:25
  I don't think I am, but I remember him talking about it
• 21:28
  and how the countryside felt very much like a countryside of
• 21:33
  of our childhood. Walking through this old English
• 21:37
  English village, walking past the phone.
• 21:40
  Yeah. Walking past the phone box and
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  hearing that sound that you tended to hear a lot when you're
• 21:45
  a child, but you don't hear it as much when you're an adult.
• 21:47
  You know, the sound of pigeons cooing in the morning like in
• 21:50
  the summer morning, that kind of thing.
• 21:53
  It's really. Yeah, it's intensely British all
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  the way down to the road signs and it feels like a real place
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  and it's one of the best realised environments that I've
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  ever experienced in a game and and this and this game too has
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  that. So moving on onto our new
• 22:19
  feature, is Gameplay King turning it on its head?
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  This is a tricky 1 isn't it? It's tricky to to kind of go
• 22:28
  into the gameplay of this game. So I've kind of picked 2
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  questions from our pre established list which is did
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  the gameplay connect well with story or themes would you say?
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  Well, you say yes, but at the same time no, because there
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  isn't any gameplay really. It's just walking, which is why
• 22:50
  I think that it's quite hard to say that this is a game, really.
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  But the actions that you take in this experience, IE walking
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  forward, is exactly what this game should be.
• 23:04
  Yeah, you know, it doesn't need anything more than that.
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  So yes. But there's a caveat with it.
• 23:10
  I don't really have anything to add to that.
• 23:13
  And how does it compare to What Remains of Edith Finch
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  functionally? It's very different.
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  I mean, I imagine that we'll play Edith Finch at some point,
• 23:24
  because I think Edith Finch is a really, really.
• 23:27
  Good game. I've also.
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  Completed that game. Yeah.
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  It's there's a lot of really good storytelling through
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  different gameplay sects. And the one that always stands
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  out to me, the the basic, like the basic run through of Edith
• 23:44
  Finch is there's a curse on this family and that everybody in the
• 23:47
  family dies in different ways. And they're like you, you
• 23:52
  experience the the death of each of the characters through
• 23:58
  flashbacks or through diary entries.
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  And the one that always sticks with me the most is we call Dear
• 24:04
  Ester, a walking simulator. Edith Finch is similar, but it
• 24:08
  has gameplay elements in it. And the thing that I always
• 24:11
  think back to is when the because the girl isn't Edith is,
• 24:17
  is it? That's the grandmother.
• 24:19
  Yeah, is it the girl on the swing?
• 24:22
  No, it is when she's talking about her brother, talking about
• 24:29
  like his struggles with mental health and how he built this
• 24:33
  whole world in his head while he was working at a cannery where
• 24:37
  literally his entire job was beheading fish and putting him
• 24:42
  on a conveyor belt. And you're physically with your
• 24:45
  two triggers, you are moving the fish with one trigger and then
• 24:48
  putting it under the guillotine with another.
• 24:52
  But at the same time, there's this world that's being created
• 24:55
  around you with this king going up.
• 24:57
  And it's, it's honestly mind blowing.
• 25:02
  And this is very different from that game because it's Edith
• 25:06
  Finch has that and it has a section like you say, where
• 25:08
  you're on a swing or when you're in the bath playing with bubbles
• 25:11
  and jumping toys. It's very different, but at the
• 25:15
  same time they're of the same. Bubbles as in the the actual.
• 25:19
  Bubbles. Not a little pretty.
• 25:21
  Character called Bubbles that's in the bath with.
• 25:24
  You call me Bubbles, darling. Everybody does.
• 25:28
  Oh. Dear.
• 25:30
  But yeah, like they're, they're similar, but different.
• 25:33
  Yeah, this is a very unhelpful way of saying.
• 25:35
  Context sensitive stuff in that game that.
• 25:39
  Yeah. Whereas this is more, yeah, like
• 25:43
  I said, I see this as sort of a play, like a almost like a radio
• 25:49
  play that you walk through. Yeah.
• 25:53
  OK, onto our did you know feature.
• 25:58
  I'm sure you did know this, but I want to kind of get some of
• 26:02
  your experiences with this and we can talk about that a bit.
• 26:05
  So Dear Esther has ghosts. So you're not the only one on
• 26:10
  the island. There are ghosts there with you.
• 26:13
  So did you see or did you experience any of the ghostly
• 26:18
  apparitions in this game? No, not while I was playing it.
• 26:22
  But like I said, I did watch a couple of videos after and they
• 26:25
  zoom in on like a figure looking at you on top of a hill, things
• 26:29
  like that. But I didn't experience it
• 26:30
  myself. No, I didn't actually know about
• 26:32
  that until I watched a follow up video.
• 26:35
  OK, so they are there. I had a an extra eye out for
• 26:39
  them on this playthrough and I think I saw three ghosts.
• 26:43
  There are probably more there as well.
• 26:46
  It's all based on your your vantage point.
• 26:48
  And yeah, I saw one going up into the bothy on the hill.
• 26:53
  I saw another in a cave not far from that.
• 26:55
  And I saw one towards the end up on the cliffs.
• 26:58
  And it's sort of creepy They. Say, it's a bit of a horror
• 27:04
  esque game, don't they? Yeah, it really adds to the
• 27:06
  atmosphere and this is a very atmospheric game.
• 27:10
  OK, one thing I really want to talk about is the soundtrack and
• 27:15
  the effects work. So give me your thoughts on both
• 27:20
  or either of those things. I think the music kind of is the
• 27:27
  ideal amount for what it is. The music isn't always playing
• 27:32
  and it kind of lifts when it needs to, but then withdraws
• 27:37
  when you need some quiet time or when you're just walking and
• 27:40
  there's no narration. So I think the music fits in
• 27:43
  very well with the way that the story is read.
• 27:47
  But other than that, I don't have too much to say about the
• 27:50
  music, I don't think. I really like, and it's a bit of
• 27:53
  a combination of the music and the effects.
• 27:56
  I really like what they do here. It's very ambient and it almost
• 28:01
  feels like they've kind of pieced it together from nature.
• 28:05
  And one of the standouts for me is in The Cave and you've got
• 28:10
  sort of the water trickling down or, or, or flooding down, and
• 28:16
  you've got this sort of ethereal music playing in the background.
• 28:20
  For a very long time there was a theme on the PS4 from Dear
• 28:25
  Esther in the caves and that was my my theme for my background of
• 28:32
  the PS4. I just think it's a really it
• 28:37
  has some really nice moments and it really adds to the
• 28:40
  atmosphere. Speaking of atmosphere, talk to
• 28:45
  me about the visuals and the atmosphere of this game.
• 28:48
  Any particular stand out areas or anything like that?
• 28:54
  It's a very kind of dark game mostly, but you go down into a
• 29:01
  cave about the halfway point of the game, maybe a little bit
• 29:05
  before that, and there are these like symbols drawn in what looks
• 29:13
  like to be like neon paint in quite a few areas of the game,
• 29:17
  not just in the caves, which kind of illuminate things a bit.
• 29:21
  And I found that the bits of the game that I liked the most were
• 29:24
  the bits where you're just outside or exploring one of the
• 29:27
  boffy's. I didn't really like The Cave
• 29:30
  section that much. However, there's a bit where you
• 29:34
  go underwater and you imagine the scene of where the crash
• 29:39
  happened. I suppose it's kind of like my
• 29:43
  house on Sunnyford Services, but it's, it's kind of in the middle
• 29:49
  of the M5 and there is a hospital bed that's got coins
• 29:55
  all over it. And there's a, there's a like,
• 30:01
  is it a saline bag, whatever they're called, the things that
• 30:05
  they put blood into. Oh yeah, yeah.
• 30:08
  I was about to say catheter, but it's definitely not that.
• 30:12
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you kind of are swimming
• 30:17
  around this section, which I imagine is the the bed on which
• 30:21
  they took Ester, Ester and with Ester's catheter.
• 30:27
  That's right. But yeah, like The Cave section
• 30:32
  is a bit different. It's a bit darker, but with some
• 30:34
  very bright colours. And then you come back out into
• 30:36
  the bleak and the dark and the cold and there are a few fires
• 30:40
  around and shipwrecks and candles.
• 30:44
  And yeah, it's just very, I don't even know the word to use,
• 30:50
  but very kind of bleak in some areas, and it lights up and
• 30:54
  illuminates and others. Yeah, Erie is a good word for
• 30:56
  it. Erie.
• 30:57
  Yeah, I like the light show in The Cave.
• 31:02
  Obviously you've got all the crystals on the ceiling and just
• 31:05
  the way that the lights reflect. Especially back in 2016 when
• 31:10
  this was released on the PS4, it really looked impressive.
• 31:16
  And I think that's due to the art style.
• 31:18
  And even now I think it paints the picture of a Hebridean
• 31:23
  island very well or or at the very least what I imagine one to
• 31:27
  be like. So I find it really impressing
• 31:32
  and impressive. And there's a lot of
• 31:34
  environmental stories heading here as well.
• 31:36
  So there's there's stuff littering the environments that
• 31:41
  suggests at the story, like there are letters on the beach.
• 31:46
  Things written on the wall. Yeah, there's all sorts of stuff
• 31:50
  spread around the environment. OK, so on to our question of the
• 31:54
  week. Our question of the week,
• 31:57
  probably unsurprisingly, is, is named What's in a game and what
• 32:02
  makes a game a game? So that's my question to you and
• 32:09
  I'm going to, I'm going to add a follow up to that.
• 32:11
  Does it matter? No, it doesn't matter.
• 32:16
  I think a game, it's quite a hard one, to be fair, because
• 32:21
  you think back to, I think I've referenced it to you a few times
• 32:25
  in the past. But there's a game, I think it
• 32:26
  was on the the the Jaguar. I can't remember if the Jaguar
• 32:32
  was made by Atari or Phillips or like those old.
• 32:38
  Yeah, I think the Atari Jaguar. And there was a game on that I
• 32:42
  seem to remember. Do you recall like the games of
• 32:45
  the early 90s where it was like ACD ROM and it was like a point
• 32:49
  and click game, but it had FMV stuff in there, like actual like
• 32:57
  actors, like Pilot Wings. You still get those?
• 33:00
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 33:01
  Like they're, they were. They're very much a product of
• 33:04
  their time. And there was a game, I think it
• 33:06
  came out in the Atari Jaguar called Plumbers Don't Wear Ties.
• 33:11
  And that's my favourite game. It's my favourite game as well.
• 33:15
  Actually is the most bizarre experience because it is.
• 33:20
  If I want you to go away and research, what plumbers don't
• 33:22
  wear ties is because it's Jewish.
• 33:23
  Play it for the next bonus game. I don't think we should.
• 33:27
  It's ridiculous, but like, that isn't a game.
• 33:33
  You just make a couple of choices here and there and the
• 33:35
  story progresses. That's not a game.
• 33:36
  However, it is on a games console so you have to call it a
• 33:39
  game even though it isn't. And I'd say that anything where
• 33:44
  you take control of a character or you you have any interaction
• 33:50
  and make movements that you're not just choosing things off a
• 33:54
  menu, that's a game. Even if you're not jumping
• 33:57
  around shooting zombies or breaking boxes, collecting
• 34:01
  rings, blah, blah, blah, it doesn't matter if you're moving.
• 34:04
  You're taking control of something to progress the story
• 34:07
  or the experience forward. It's a game, and I don't think
• 34:12
  it matters what the game kind of what a gameplay is.
• 34:17
  As long as you've got those elements in it, then it's a
• 34:20
  game. And even then you've got other
• 34:22
  things like quiz games like Trivial Pursuit or Monopoly.
• 34:26
  Still a game. Even when we played something
• 34:30
  like Persona 5, I said at the time, sometimes that feels like
• 34:34
  press X to advanced simulator, like your interaction with that
• 34:38
  game is moving around and pressing X through menus.
• 34:44
  So it is a bit of a fine line, I suppose.
• 34:48
  And I, I just come back to this thought of, I don't know why it
• 34:57
  matters. It seems like a bit of a
• 35:00
  highbrow thing to say. Oh, this is a game.
• 35:02
  This is not a game. Like, I don't think it matters
• 35:07
  because everything is an experience, whether you're
• 35:09
  reading a book, whether you're watching a film, whether you're
• 35:12
  listening to a radio play, watching a play, playing a game,
• 35:17
  it's all an experience. And it's whether or not that
• 35:21
  experience speaks to you. And if it does, fantastic.
• 35:25
  If it doesn't, then it doesn't. And I just have never understood
• 35:34
  this, this thing of, oh, it's a game.
• 35:35
  And, and I feel like sometimes gamers capital G hold games up
• 35:42
  as this like bastion of what a game should be.
• 35:47
  And I just don't. I, I personally don't feel like
• 35:51
  it's an important question. All that matters is whether you
• 35:54
  enjoy it or not. And ultimately I do enjoy this
• 35:59
  game and it's form doesn't really matter to me.
• 36:04
  But that's just my opinion on it.
• 36:08
  OK, knowing the answer to this question, does it deserved to be
• 36:14
  on a list of top 100 games? No, I'd say that it deserves to
• 36:21
  be in a list of the top 10 experiences Fair.
• 36:27
  Enough. But no, I don't think so.
• 36:29
  It doesn't. It doesn't bring enough to the
• 36:31
  table for that. But it's still, I think I said
• 36:35
  that it isn't compelling, but it has a compelling nature about it
• 36:37
  to make you want to finish it so and it's not enough.
• 36:41
  It's kind of like a a sweet slice of yeah, whatever it is.
• 36:46
  Yeah, if it was any longer, it would probably be a bit much,
• 36:49
  which is where it differs from Edith Finch, because Edith Finch
• 36:52
  is longer. I know, 3-4 hours maybe, but
• 36:56
  that's varied. But yeah, that's where I stand
• 36:59
  on it. What about you?
• 37:00
  I agree, I don't think it deserves to be listed as one of
• 37:03
  the top games ever. I will say that I think walking
• 37:07
  simulators have a place. Yeah.
• 37:11
  In the world of games, this isn't even my favourite walking
• 37:16
  simulator, and I think a walking simulator is, is is kind of a
• 37:20
  bit of a derogatory term for them and it kind of nullifies
• 37:26
  all the effort that's got into building this experience.
• 37:31
  But yes, I don't think it deserves to be in the top 100.
• 37:35
  However, it's a game that I go back.
• 37:37
  It's an experience that I go back to every now and again, and
• 37:41
  I will go back to it again and I just get the hankering to
• 37:46
  experience it. And I suppose if it keeps you
• 37:48
  coming back, it's got to be doing something right, hasn't
• 37:51
  it? Exactly.
• 37:53
  And do you think Mr Blobby's ever been to the the Hebrides?
• 37:58
  I believe that Mister Blobby owns that island.
• 38:00
  OK personally. Well, what do you think?
• 38:03
  Do you think Mr Blobby is Donnelly?
• 38:06
  Could, could well be. Could well be.
• 38:08
  I also think that. I also believe that Mister
• 38:11
  Blobby is maybe the M5. I think Mr Blobby lives with you
• 38:17
  in Sandy. Service he does.
• 38:19
  That's right all. Although sometimes I hear that
• 38:23
  he does like to frequent stretching services as well.
• 38:26
  Yeah, and he's also got blobby land in Morecambe, so let's not.
• 38:30
  He does. And if if you really want to see
• 38:32
  him, get yourself down to Gloucester services on the M5,
• 38:34
  get yourself a sausage roll and see Mr Blobby.
• 38:37
  Pretty lovely experience. Tebay he's a fan of that because
• 38:40
  he likes all the. Fresh produce, That's right.
• 38:43
  Correct. OK, so all right, so it's the
• 38:48
  next time we've got Hollow Night coming up.
• 38:50
  However, if we do Chuck in another bonus game, bear with us
• 38:54
  because it is hectic times for me, it's hectic times for Mr
• 38:59
  Blobby, it's hectic times for you and everyone involved.
• 39:03
  So yeah. I'd say person.
• 39:05
  I think it's very selfish that you've got married at this time.
• 39:09
  Some disappointed. Some would say so.
• 39:11
  You've you've not put the podcast first, have you?
• 39:14
  Unbelievable. I've put Japan 1st and that's
• 39:17
  right Mr Blobby and. My wife.
• 39:22
  Yes, yes, yes, Mr Blobby's wife. Well, yeah, so maybe Hollow
• 39:27
  Night next time, but then maybe not.
• 39:29
  Yeah, we'll see how we get on. I've I've been playing that game
• 39:32
  for 30 plus hours and I've still not finished it.
• 39:35
  So yeah, we'll see. We will, well in the meantime,
• 39:40
  as always, find us on social media, can e-mail us at the long
• 39:43
  shortest podcast@hotmail.com. I'll be honest, I haven't
• 39:47
  checked the inbox for a while, so I need to do that to see if
• 39:51
  anybody has sent us a nice message telling us that we're
• 39:53
  handsome. Sure that they have, but.
• 39:58
  Yeah, and if they. Haven't.
• 39:59
  Please feel free to do that. Please feel free to let us know.
• 40:02
  Absolutely. With you getting married.
• 40:04
  Yeah, with you getting married in a few weeks time.
• 40:08
  I think as the unmarried one, I need to be reminded that I am
• 40:11
  indeed handsome. So if anyone wants to, you know,
• 40:15
  throw that into the inbox, it'd be very much appreciated.
• 40:19
  And if you want to send us a picture of Mr Blobby, you can do
• 40:22
  that. You can.
• 40:25
  You're allowing science. Quite picture of Mr Blobby.
• 40:30
  And on that bombshell, that's everything from me for today.
• 40:33
  Anything else from you? Nope, have yourselves a lovely
• 40:36
  day. A merry little Christmas.
• 40:39
  We will see you next time for maybe holiday night, maybe not.
• 40:42
  But in the meantime, take care, Cheerio.
• 40:44
  See you on the next one.