Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / New details about Tad Cummins' kidnapping Elizabeth Thomas

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New details about Tad Cummins' kidnapping Elizabeth Thomas · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Thomas is being welcome home to Columbia, Tennessee with
0:09
Speaker 1: signs and banner. Her family says she is comfortable and breasting,
0:13
Speaker 1: but has suffered severe emotional trauma. I'm just so overjoyed
0:17
Speaker 1: to have her home, that she's saved. This is crime stories.
0:21
Speaker 1: But Nancy Grace, the fifteen year old and her former
0:24
Speaker 1: teacher were found more than two thousand miles away in
0:27
Speaker 1: a remote cabinety in northern California with no electricity or
0:30
Speaker 1: running water. And they said they're from Colorado, and he
0:33
Speaker 1: said he had a house fire. He pulled me aside
0:37
Speaker 1: at one point in the man a statement that he
0:38
Speaker 1: was glad that this was all over. His sister says
0:41
Speaker 1: he doesn't believe he kidnapped Elizabeth. I asked him why
0:45
Speaker 1: why would he do this? And the answer he gave
0:47
Speaker 1: me is that she wanted to run away, and she
0:50
Speaker 1: wanted to leave, and he didn't want her to go along,
0:53
Speaker 1: so he went with her solo. Who could know that
0:55
Speaker 1: she was pit I Nancy Grace, this is crime storys
1:00
Speaker 1: And as all you legal eagles already know, the Pervy
1:04
Speaker 1: High school teacher Tad Cummings has been apprehended. He has
1:09
Speaker 1: somehow managed to get his student, Elizabeth Thomas, almost three
1:15
Speaker 1: thousand miles from her home in Columbia, Tennessee, going under
1:19
Speaker 1: the radar, somehow, out foxing the police, the FBI, and
1:24
Speaker 1: scores of egal eyes like you and myself trying to
1:28
Speaker 1: spot them, he ends up in bar Claw Commune. Now,
1:33
Speaker 1: for some reason, all the TV stations kept saying it's
1:36
Speaker 1: not a commune, it's not a commune, it as a commune,
1:40
Speaker 1: and if you look at a documentary about the commune,
1:43
Speaker 1: it's clothing optional. Now catch this. He gets all the
1:46
Speaker 1: way to the commune with this little girl that he's kidnapped,
1:49
Speaker 1: and according to reports, he gets kicked out of the
1:53
Speaker 1: commune because this fifty year old high school health science
1:58
Speaker 1: teacher spends all of his time upstairs having sex with
2:02
Speaker 1: the minor as opposed to doing his communal chores. After
2:05
Speaker 1: about a week of that, he was out and had
2:08
Speaker 1: to go live in a one bedroom cabin near the commune.
2:12
Speaker 1: Joining me right now is special guest, the lawyer very
2:17
Speaker 1: well respected in his jurisdiction, Jason Whatley, who has been
2:21
Speaker 1: representing Elizabeth's family during this ordeal, and along with him,
2:27
Speaker 1: his colleague Jason please introduce Francy, your colleague, Francie Abbott.
2:32
Speaker 1: She's the brains of the law firm. She's right here
2:35
Speaker 1: making sure I don't mess up. Well, I knew there
2:37
Speaker 1: was a woman, a woman that was running things there.
2:42
Speaker 1: Now I meet her. Hello, Francy Abbott, Thank you for
2:44
Speaker 1: being with us. Hi, dear Jason. How is the family
2:49
Speaker 1: holding up? And what was the reunion like when they
2:53
Speaker 1: were finally joined with Elizabeth? You know, Nancy, the family
2:59
Speaker 1: is doing ex actinitely well under the circumstances. I mean,
3:03
Speaker 1: this has been hard. I mean, I'm not gonna sugarcoat this. Um.
3:07
Speaker 1: This man didn't work on her um and they're gonna
3:10
Speaker 1: be dealing with it for quite some time. Luckily, the
3:13
Speaker 1: care providers we have are confident that they're going to
3:16
Speaker 1: get her back to the right and state of mind. Now,
3:18
Speaker 1: I don't want to give it some impression that she's um,
3:21
Speaker 1: you know, not herself. At times she is and she's
3:24
Speaker 1: just the sweetest thing when you meet her, UM, and
3:28
Speaker 1: she's a child. I was gonna be very very clear,
3:31
Speaker 1: this is this is something that is uh. It has
3:35
Speaker 1: bothered me when people talk about this is some romance
3:39
Speaker 1: or whatever they say, and this crazy stuff. And I
3:41
Speaker 1: know she's fifteen, but look, let's just when I met her.
3:45
Speaker 1: I will tell you, Nancy, the very first thought in
3:48
Speaker 1: my head, and the first thought of my paralegal she
3:50
Speaker 1: was there too, was this is a little child. She
3:54
Speaker 1: she looks twelve, she acts twelve. Um. You know, I
3:58
Speaker 1: don't know if and I don't mean to in the
4:00
Speaker 1: offensive way, if she had her growth was a little
4:02
Speaker 1: bit stunted, or if that's just the way she's developed
4:04
Speaker 1: or whatever. But she's a tiny little thing. And uh,
4:07
Speaker 1: and and she anybody who sees her would immediately think child,
4:11
Speaker 1: not woman. And so this, the mug shot that we
4:13
Speaker 1: had of her is just wrong. But the family has
4:15
Speaker 1: been that they're doing great. I mean, the fact that
4:19
Speaker 1: that she's she's home and safe and being cared for
4:23
Speaker 1: is a sense of relief it can't even be described.
4:26
Speaker 1: At the same time, there's lots of struggles and it
4:28
Speaker 1: just is what it is. But they're gonna get through it.
4:30
Speaker 1: They've got lots of help, and uh, you know, they're
4:32
Speaker 1: cutting off media as of last night, and they're just
4:35
Speaker 1: going to focus on the child and and uh, and
4:38
Speaker 1: it's all that that, you know, that part of it's good.
4:40
Speaker 1: You know, I want to ask this question of Francie
4:42
Speaker 1: because I think she'll be able to answer a little
4:44
Speaker 1: bit better than you. Jason, no offense, but when you
4:48
Speaker 1: say that she was not really looks like a child, Francie.
4:52
Speaker 1: When I looked at her in her picture, she always
4:55
Speaker 1: had on baggy clothes, but she didn't even look like
4:58
Speaker 1: she had developed as a woman at all. Like I
5:01
Speaker 1: don't think she would even need a bra or anything.
5:05
Speaker 1: She just looked like a skinny child. She she looked
5:09
Speaker 1: like a little girl. She's definitely a child. A fifteen
5:12
Speaker 1: year old is not fully developed, especially this one. She's
5:16
Speaker 1: not at all. She's not even close to womanhood. I
5:19
Speaker 1: think that's a good description, Nancy. I think she's you know,
5:22
Speaker 1: she clearly she's she's post Jason, Jason, Jason, let me
5:28
Speaker 1: let me just keep you from sticking your foot in
5:31
Speaker 1: your mouth, because a man can't say it, but I
5:34
Speaker 1: can say it. I mean, this little girl didn't even
5:36
Speaker 1: need This little girl didn't even need a bra, okay
5:40
Speaker 1: from the looks of it. And there she is with
5:42
Speaker 1: this fifty year old man when he's having sex with her.
5:46
Speaker 1: What that is? It's not sex, it's called statutory right,
5:48
Speaker 1: that's what that is. But I'm just I got the
5:52
Speaker 1: father was so overjoyed beyond words. I can only imagine
5:57
Speaker 1: his relief that she was alive. Let me just tell you,
6:00
Speaker 1: he is a a very stoic guy typically. Um even
6:06
Speaker 1: at times I wish he had you know, there were
6:08
Speaker 1: times if I could choreograph him, I would have said, Okay,
6:11
Speaker 1: show some emotion here this or that. Um, this broke
6:15
Speaker 1: him just seeing her when he finally saw her, He's
6:18
Speaker 1: just broken. I mean, I've never in my in my
6:21
Speaker 1: professional career, I don't know that I've ever had a
6:23
Speaker 1: client weep the way in what he did. I mean,
6:27
Speaker 1: it was he just in a gut wrenching fashion and
6:30
Speaker 1: uncontrollable fashion. It was just very very very weepy. Uh,
6:35
Speaker 1: And it just sort of hit him when finally she
6:38
Speaker 1: was home. You know what the child had been through
6:40
Speaker 1: and it is it was a very emotional time for everybody.
6:43
Speaker 1: They're very emotional. Well, I can only imagine you're actually
6:47
Speaker 1: bringing me to two years because it's reminding me of
6:49
Speaker 1: my father. And he would well up and cry if
6:53
Speaker 1: he thought I had a hard time even when I
6:55
Speaker 1: was a grown lady, much less as a child. Yeah,
6:59
Speaker 1: he you know, he's a very emotional person. In fact,
7:01
Speaker 1: that's one of the things I don't mind saying this
7:03
Speaker 1: that his his tendency to be emotional in her presence
7:08
Speaker 1: is something we've had to uh rain in a little
7:11
Speaker 1: bit because that's something that is difficult for her to
7:15
Speaker 1: take right now. She's she's struggling in many different ways.
7:18
Speaker 1: And and again she's got great family and friends support
7:22
Speaker 1: around her. Uh, but but you know, she can't take
7:25
Speaker 1: a lot of pressing in on her. She can't take
7:28
Speaker 1: big crowds at all, or even modest sized crowds. Um,
7:33
Speaker 1: you know, and she she uh people being emotional around her.
7:37
Speaker 1: We've we've steered away from that. We try to keep
7:39
Speaker 1: the conversation light. Um. You know, it's been uh it's
7:44
Speaker 1: it's been at times sort of clinical. As you're in
7:47
Speaker 1: her presence now, there have been lots of moments, extended moments.
7:50
Speaker 1: I spent several hours with her on Sunday morning, uh,
7:56
Speaker 1: just watching the kids play and it laughs and run
8:00
Speaker 1: around and wrestle each other and and I mean it
8:03
Speaker 1: was like normalcy. I mean, it was just it was
8:06
Speaker 1: an amazing thing to watch and so um, you know,
8:09
Speaker 1: that that was clearly just a snippet and it wasn't
8:13
Speaker 1: the whole picture, but it was a beautiful picture to
8:15
Speaker 1: see that she can get to that point. Let me
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10:03
Speaker 1: When you say that her father has to be reigned in,
10:09
Speaker 1: you mean because he cries out of joy, or because
10:12
Speaker 1: he's angry at what Tad Cummins did or what is it? What?
10:17
Speaker 1: And I get it. I don't think my father could
10:20
Speaker 1: have been reined in on something like this. But what
10:23
Speaker 1: do you mean by that with respect to her presence?
10:26
Speaker 1: Obviously it's his tears of joy? I mean he he
10:29
Speaker 1: talked about this particular flavor of gatorade, some sort of
10:32
Speaker 1: weird cucumber something gatorade that he he remember. He told
10:37
Speaker 1: this touching story and it choked me up that he
10:41
Speaker 1: um he wanted to get this for her when she returned,
10:44
Speaker 1: and he and explaining why he wanted to get her
10:47
Speaker 1: that particular flavor. He said that he knew it was
10:50
Speaker 1: her favorite, and that he searched all over the gas
10:54
Speaker 1: station for it one day, and uh, and he just
10:58
Speaker 1: wanted to see this, this flavor. It reminded him of her,
11:01
Speaker 1: and he could not find it. And he looked everywhere
11:04
Speaker 1: and he could not find this. And it was almost
11:06
Speaker 1: like it was a metaphor for the fact that she
11:08
Speaker 1: was gone. And he just broke down and he just
11:11
Speaker 1: he just wept over the fact he couldn't find this
11:14
Speaker 1: particular flavor of gatorade, which was his daughter's he perceived
11:18
Speaker 1: to be her favorite. We later found out that she
11:20
Speaker 1: was humoring him a little bit, that that she liked it,
11:23
Speaker 1: but not quite as much as he thought she did.
11:25
Speaker 1: But he thought in his mind that that was it.
11:27
Speaker 1: And and so it's just been very touching. But but
11:30
Speaker 1: now I will tell you, and you may be referencing
11:32
Speaker 1: this um. You know, I'm sure a lot of his tears.
11:36
Speaker 1: The mixture of emotion also has to do with anger. Um,
11:40
Speaker 1: because he is angry. He's very, very angry and wants justice.
11:45
Speaker 1: I don't mean that anger's driving him. He's a loving,
11:48
Speaker 1: caring person. But you know, how should any father feel
11:51
Speaker 1: when their daughter was taken that way and something. Uh,
11:54
Speaker 1: you know, a portion of her life was taken that
11:56
Speaker 1: can never be returned. And you know what is the
11:58
Speaker 1: response of a father supposed to be I know that
12:00
Speaker 1: I would never be able to be the same. Frankly,
12:03
Speaker 1: I'd have to be restrained if it were me. Let
12:05
Speaker 1: me ask you this. I've said. That's a couple of times.
12:08
Speaker 1: I want to make sure I'm right. I was under
12:10
Speaker 1: the understanding that Elizabeth had been homeschooled, Is that right? Yes,
12:14
Speaker 1: before her mother's ordeal where she was abused and all
12:18
Speaker 1: the children were abused, and this happened over an extended
12:21
Speaker 1: period of time, that before mother whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait
12:24
Speaker 1: a minute, Wait a minute, Whitley, we are not putting
12:27
Speaker 1: perfume on the pig. It's not an ordeal her mother
12:30
Speaker 1: went through. Her mother was accused of abusing her children,
12:35
Speaker 1: including Elizabeth. Okay, I agree with you. I agree. Thanks
12:41
Speaker 1: for the correction that she she um when that happened.
12:45
Speaker 1: When she exited, Elizabeth went into public school. That was
12:48
Speaker 1: the middle of her eighth grade year. And so then
12:51
Speaker 1: she there you go again, Whitley, there you go. She
12:54
Speaker 1: did not exit. She lost her parental right because she
12:59
Speaker 1: had been, according to a juvenile judge, abusing the children.
13:03
Speaker 1: The standard proof was met and she could no longer
13:06
Speaker 1: be with him. She didn't like go for a physical
13:10
Speaker 1: therapy somewhere. It was a forced exit. That's the way
13:13
Speaker 1: I look at it. But I mean it was Listen,
13:15
Speaker 1: she's a horrible person and we can't stand her and
13:18
Speaker 1: the family literally, the just on that note that she
13:22
Speaker 1: had has had such a negative impact on these children
13:25
Speaker 1: that just the side of her on media has been
13:28
Speaker 1: extremely hurtful to even be adult children. I mean, they
13:32
Speaker 1: just can't stand it with people don't understand really how
13:34
Speaker 1: delicate the human mind is. Like when you were talking
13:37
Speaker 1: about that Gatoray drink, My father every night after dinner
13:42
Speaker 1: would want a decaf and I would make it for
13:45
Speaker 1: him every night that he was with me. And I
13:48
Speaker 1: remember when he was in that hospital bed, I begged
13:50
Speaker 1: him to come back to and I'd make him a decaf.
13:54
Speaker 1: Isn't that a funny thing out of all the things
13:57
Speaker 1: I kind of said, And I'm just thinking out her
14:00
Speaker 1: father trying to fight her favorite drink for her just
14:05
Speaker 1: hurts my heart. I agree, Nancy. It's also it's gut wrenching, really,
14:14
Speaker 1: and I just hope and pray that justice can be
14:16
Speaker 1: done here. The fact that Tad Cummins yesterday made the
14:20
Speaker 1: statement allegedly I wasn't there, but in federal court, that
14:23
Speaker 1: he made the statement that he was looking forward to
14:26
Speaker 1: defending these charges. What he said he did not he
14:32
Speaker 1: said he's looking forward to defending these charges. Oh you
14:36
Speaker 1: know what, you just named me the happiest one in
14:38
Speaker 1: the world, because I tell you what. When he starts
14:43
Speaker 1: up with a jury about I noticed that he said, oh,
14:46
Speaker 1: kind of like blaming Elizabeth. It was her idea. She's
14:50
Speaker 1: the one that says she wanted to run away, you
14:52
Speaker 1: know what. B asked that child did not want to
14:55
Speaker 1: want run away until he took her away. She never
15:00
Speaker 1: run away in her life. No, she had not. And
15:03
Speaker 1: let me tell you this it let's assume even for
15:07
Speaker 1: one second that she went willingly. Now I agree that
15:12
Speaker 1: she couldn't, but let's just assume in the sense of
15:14
Speaker 1: how lay people look at it, she went. When I
15:16
Speaker 1: heard this, keep in mind, and I'm just gonna tell
15:19
Speaker 1: you this little tidbit. And this came out before when
15:21
Speaker 1: she was found that this was out in the media,
15:23
Speaker 1: and so I'm just reminded me of something that was
15:25
Speaker 1: already out there. She told at least I think two
15:29
Speaker 1: people that I know of, that she was so upset
15:32
Speaker 1: at the ridicule that she was getting at school about
15:36
Speaker 1: the kissing, that she was going to get out of there.
15:40
Speaker 1: That in other words, she was talking about the idea
15:43
Speaker 1: of leaving to a few people or at least two
15:46
Speaker 1: that I that I'm that I know of, before she
15:50
Speaker 1: left because of that. Now, think of the irony. If
15:53
Speaker 1: that's true. The reason that she felt that ridicule was
15:57
Speaker 1: because of Tad Cummins. He is the genesis of it.
16:00
Speaker 1: He created it, and then he became her rescuer in
16:03
Speaker 1: his eyes. I mean, the man is demented. So that's
16:06
Speaker 1: fifty year old gray whiskered married man. Grandfather French kisses
16:13
Speaker 1: this little girl right in the mouth in the school.
16:15
Speaker 1: In the background, just in case you hear it, that's
16:17
Speaker 1: my mother, Elizabeth French kisses her in the mouth at school,
16:22
Speaker 1: gets caught. Then she gets ridiculed. She wants to run
16:26
Speaker 1: away from everybody at school making fun of her, and
16:29
Speaker 1: according to her reports, even the teachers saying it was
16:32
Speaker 1: her fault. They should all be reprimanded for that. Everyone
16:36
Speaker 1: that said that. So she wants to run away, and
16:38
Speaker 1: so he says, oh, I took her because she wanted
16:41
Speaker 1: to run away. I mean the irony as you just
16:44
Speaker 1: pointed out. But I'll tell you another observation. This child
16:48
Speaker 1: had been homeschooled and kept in the home. She looks
16:52
Speaker 1: like a twelve year old girl at best. The way
16:57
Speaker 1: she's built, well, thin thing, and I would put money
17:01
Speaker 1: on it. Not that this is gonna make a difference
17:03
Speaker 1: in a court of law, but you know, this child
17:05
Speaker 1: had never been with a man before. And then she
17:08
Speaker 1: goes out with this fifty year old lout and they
17:13
Speaker 1: start having sex in a commune. Oh, dear Lord in Heaven,
17:17
Speaker 1: I can't wait for him to so called defend himself
17:21
Speaker 1: and all of this come out. And I guarantee you
17:24
Speaker 1: they're gonna bring on those people at that commune because
17:28
Speaker 1: if Elizabeth has been brainwashed, as I think she may
17:30
Speaker 1: have been, Hey, she may come out of it by
17:33
Speaker 1: that time, but be they will need to corroborate everything
17:37
Speaker 1: that she says. If she cannot testify a chial, they'll
17:40
Speaker 1: bring on those clothing optional commune members and they will
17:44
Speaker 1: describe what they heard upstairs where that dirty mattresses on
17:48
Speaker 1: that upstairs floor. M And when the jury hears that
17:52
Speaker 1: they they won't be able to convict fast enough, they
17:56
Speaker 1: won't even have a soda break in deliberation, still go
18:00
Speaker 1: straight to the Yeah. I think that he's a legend
18:03
Speaker 1: in his own mind. I think that these statements speak
18:06
Speaker 1: to just the level of narcissism that exists in Tad Cummins.
18:10
Speaker 1: He believes his own fantasy at this point. And the
18:13
Speaker 1: fact that the thing, if you just think about it
18:15
Speaker 1: for a second, Nancy, I mean, just step back for
18:16
Speaker 1: a second. Thing, Okay, I left. This is his story.
18:20
Speaker 1: I left because she wanted to run away, and I
18:23
Speaker 1: wanted to protect her. That's the story that's coming out
18:26
Speaker 1: that I've been reading that about the people that were
18:28
Speaker 1: there in court, and and and the story that came
18:31
Speaker 1: from his sister too. I don't know if you saw
18:33
Speaker 1: that interview. His sister got interviewed. She had talked to him,
18:36
Speaker 1: and he allegedly claims that he wanted to protect her.
18:39
Speaker 1: So to protect her, he takes her. He cuts her hair,
18:43
Speaker 1: he dyes her hair, he takes her three thousand miles away.
18:47
Speaker 1: She eats wild flowers. She's basically, uh, famished for food,
18:54
Speaker 1: she lives in god forsaken environment with naked men walking
18:58
Speaker 1: around at least supporting the reports. And I'm not comment
19:00
Speaker 1: on what I know, okay, but all of these things
19:03
Speaker 1: and then God forbid the things that we think we're happening,
19:06
Speaker 1: and that's rescuing her. I mean, I mean this, this man.
19:09
Speaker 1: I don't want to say he's insane, because he's not
19:12
Speaker 1: clinically insane to the point that he can't stand trial. Um,
19:15
Speaker 1: but but he's an evil man. I'll say that, and
19:17
Speaker 1: I'll stick with that. It's Francy Abbott still there. Yes, Francy,
19:22
Speaker 1: do you have children? No? I did not. Let me
19:25
Speaker 1: tell you something. The last thing I want is from
19:29
Speaker 1: my daughter to be in a situation where she sees
19:33
Speaker 1: a bunch of naked men walking around. Well, that's not
19:36
Speaker 1: the absolute last thing I want, but it is way
19:39
Speaker 1: way way up there on the list. So I'm just
19:42
Speaker 1: trying to think back. Think with me, Francy. At the
19:45
Speaker 1: time you were had just turned fifteen. I mean, I
19:49
Speaker 1: didn't know anything about the world. I had a very
19:51
Speaker 1: very happy childhood, and I mean I knew nothing at all.
19:58
Speaker 1: And I think that that is the way Elizabeth was
20:02
Speaker 1: what can you tell me, Jason about what we are
20:06
Speaker 1: learning from the U. S. Attorney's office that he had
20:10
Speaker 1: actually planned to get a watercraft, a boat of some sort,
20:15
Speaker 1: and leave and get to Mexico with her. Well, he
20:19
Speaker 1: did get a watercraft, as I understand, that's my understanding.
20:22
Speaker 1: He did get one, and there was some sort of
20:24
Speaker 1: test run. I don't know if he rented it or
20:26
Speaker 1: bought it. I thought he purchased some sort of watercraft
20:29
Speaker 1: and he went into Mexican waters. That's my understanding with her. Um,
20:33
Speaker 1: you know again part this was all part of this.
20:35
Speaker 1: So this fantasy idea of his, I mean, what are
20:37
Speaker 1: you gonna do hit the shores in Mexico and didn't
20:39
Speaker 1: what What's he gonna walk along the beach, say one
20:42
Speaker 1: to day like on Shaw Shank Redemption and he's, you know,
20:45
Speaker 1: gonna fix up a boat. I mean, it's just crazy.
20:48
Speaker 1: I mean the man, uh is you know, he starts
20:52
Speaker 1: to believe his own sort of comic book fantasy reality. Um.
20:55
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna tell you right now, I absolutely believe
20:59
Speaker 1: that Elizabeth Thomas is going to get to a point,
21:03
Speaker 1: and I think sooner rather than later where she understands
21:05
Speaker 1: this She's got the best of the best working with her,
21:09
Speaker 1: and these people are consummate professionals, and they know exactly
21:12
Speaker 1: what they're doing to do with her trauma. And so
21:15
Speaker 1: I'm very confident that she's going to be an effective
21:18
Speaker 1: witness against Ted Cummins. So he had already procured a watercraft.
21:23
Speaker 1: How did he manage to do that on the with
21:25
Speaker 1: the amount of money that he had, Well, I don't
21:28
Speaker 1: know what kind of watercraft it was. So and I
21:30
Speaker 1: know this, they were they were nearing the end in
21:33
Speaker 1: terms of the money. So that so the whale had
21:35
Speaker 1: dried up and they're going to figure out a way.
21:38
Speaker 1: He was going to figure out a way to live.
21:40
Speaker 1: And he was already speaking for her. I mean one
21:42
Speaker 1: of the things in the reports I saw that was
21:45
Speaker 1: so it's just telling is that even these these folks
21:49
Speaker 1: in this commune would say that he would speak for her.
21:52
Speaker 1: You know, she couldn't speak. He would, he would answer
21:55
Speaker 1: the questions, he would shush her or whatever to keep
21:58
Speaker 1: her from talking. He control of this situation. I mean,
22:01
Speaker 1: think about it, Jason, what does it say about you
22:05
Speaker 1: when you're out in the middle of nowhere where it's
22:07
Speaker 1: a twenty mile ish rugged road to find bear Claw commune.
22:13
Speaker 1: People that clearly are antisocial, walking around half naked or
22:17
Speaker 1: totally naked, living off the land, eating wildflowers whatever. To
22:22
Speaker 1: each her own, and they kick you out even they
22:25
Speaker 1: don't want you. They thought Dad, there was something wrong
22:28
Speaker 1: with Dad Cummins. Now, I mean, come on, that ain't right.
22:33
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, I thought of that. I'm not trying
22:36
Speaker 1: to discourage the disparage those folks out there, But but
22:40
Speaker 1: you know, they said one of their intros they said
22:42
Speaker 1: they accept wickens wizards, and it was a colorful list.
22:49
Speaker 1: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them. What I'm
22:52
Speaker 1: saying is that people who don't follow traditional rules, even
22:57
Speaker 1: they knew something was very wrong with this, just innately,
23:02
Speaker 1: just naturally, you touched on something, you know there. I'm
23:05
Speaker 1: a strong believer in natural law. I believe that. I
23:08
Speaker 1: believe that inside the conscience of every human being, regardless
23:11
Speaker 1: of the worldview, unless they're just a complete sociopath, there's
23:15
Speaker 1: something telling them fundamentally what's right and wrong. Now they
23:18
Speaker 1: can debate different different points and finer points, but at
23:22
Speaker 1: the end of the day, um And and C. S
23:24
Speaker 1: Lewis went through this in detail in books like mere Christianity.
23:29
Speaker 1: But but the fact of it is, deep down in
23:32
Speaker 1: them they knew this was wrong. They knew something was wrong,
23:35
Speaker 1: and you know, in prison is the same way you
23:36
Speaker 1: can have a cold hearted killer who finds a person
23:40
Speaker 1: in prison who abused the child and look out for
23:43
Speaker 1: the person who abused the child. People know that you
23:46
Speaker 1: don't mess with kids, and you don't mess with little girls,
23:49
Speaker 1: and you don't do this kind of thing. So let
23:51
Speaker 1: me ask you this. Are you telling me that he
23:54
Speaker 1: actually took this child out on the open waters to
23:58
Speaker 1: get into Mexican waters? That's my understanding. Now, I don't
24:02
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you. I'm I'm trying to gather the
24:04
Speaker 1: facts like everybody else, so so check me all my facts.
24:07
Speaker 1: But see, we don't have any of that direct We're
24:09
Speaker 1: getting all of this fed to our via the U. S.
24:12
Speaker 1: Attorney's office or the FBI. We're just trying to get
24:15
Speaker 1: the full picture. But that's my understanding, Jason and Nancy.
24:18
Speaker 1: I have the court filing from the U. S. Attorney
24:20
Speaker 1: right in front of me, and according to the court filing,
24:24
Speaker 1: Cummins admitted to planning to attempt to escape across the
24:29
Speaker 1: US border. To Mexico. He then planned to seek passage
24:32
Speaker 1: to countries further south of Mexico. In furtherance of this plan,
24:36
Speaker 1: the defendant procured a small watercraft and conducted a test
24:40
Speaker 1: run to cross into Mexico across the waters from San Diego.
24:44
Speaker 1: The defendant also consider the feasibility of a land crossing
24:47
Speaker 1: into Mexico. That is in the sworn statement that was
24:50
Speaker 1: filed yesterday. There you go, when you say she's working
24:54
Speaker 1: with the best of the best, what do you mean
24:57
Speaker 1: by that? Like, is she working with child psycholo and
25:00
Speaker 1: just is somebody going to at some point interview her
25:03
Speaker 1: about what happened before the memory starts to fade. But
25:07
Speaker 1: you don't want to rush it. It's a very delicate thing. Jason.
25:10
Speaker 1: That's a great question, and I'm gonna tell you we've
25:12
Speaker 1: been working with that exact question in detail. And here's
25:15
Speaker 1: the bottom line. We know that law enforcement has a
25:18
Speaker 1: job to do. We know that they're going to have
25:19
Speaker 1: to question her further. We know they didn't finish their
25:22
Speaker 1: questioning of her UM, their forensic interview of there of
25:26
Speaker 1: her when she was first rescued UM, and so we
25:29
Speaker 1: know that's coming, and we're working with them. They're great
25:31
Speaker 1: people at the FBI that that are very sensitive to
25:34
Speaker 1: her needs. But at the same time, I'm going to
25:36
Speaker 1: tell you that her needs also require understanding reality and
25:41
Speaker 1: understanding these things as part of the therapeutic process. So
25:44
Speaker 1: I would I will tell you that that these folks
25:46
Speaker 1: that are working with her, which is a team of
25:49
Speaker 1: extremely qualified people, are are will be at least working
25:54
Speaker 1: hand in hand with the FBI in conducting uh an
25:59
Speaker 1: interview at the appropriate time, which serves dual purposes. So
26:03
Speaker 1: it serves their purpose and the therapeutic purpose. And so
26:06
Speaker 1: that is going to happen, and it's very much on
26:08
Speaker 1: the radar screen of everyone involved. Well, I want to
26:11
Speaker 1: tell you something. Jason Allen and I all along, we
26:14
Speaker 1: just wanted to keep covering this even when there wasn't
26:18
Speaker 1: real news, even when nothing new had happened, because I
26:23
Speaker 1: felt that every day he would get X number of
26:27
Speaker 1: miles further away, every night would be another round a
26:32
Speaker 1: statutory rape on this child, and as the days passed
26:37
Speaker 1: and the weeks passed, she would get brainwashed to the
26:40
Speaker 1: point where there was a point of no return that
26:43
Speaker 1: they would get to Mexico, they would get out of
26:45
Speaker 1: the country and beyond the reach of her father in
26:50
Speaker 1: the US government. And just look how close they were.
26:55
Speaker 1: He had already done a test run on a boat
26:59
Speaker 1: to get to Mexico, had run out of money. I
27:02
Speaker 1: was just trying to make some money and then leave
27:05
Speaker 1: this country. And you know, I just thank god he
27:09
Speaker 1: was caught in time. I'm amazed when I look at
27:13
Speaker 1: the process of how he was caught, because the the process,
27:19
Speaker 1: as per the training of these law enforcement guys worked
27:22
Speaker 1: perfectly in the end, at least. I'm not saying, you know,
27:25
Speaker 1: whether somebody could argue there were there were missteps along
27:28
Speaker 1: the way, and I'm not saying there were, but I
27:30
Speaker 1: think the process worked to a t at the end
27:34
Speaker 1: because here's what happened. The media did its job. Your show,
27:39
Speaker 1: other media outlets that kept the story alive. This person,
27:44
Speaker 1: what's his name, Francy uh Griffin, Griffin, Barry, he sees
27:51
Speaker 1: these there's another person that actually had seen the broadcast,
27:54
Speaker 1: and then they communicated with him, and then he saw
27:58
Speaker 1: this and recognized them. And then even after that point
28:02
Speaker 1: when he calls law enforcement, they didn't They didn't tell
28:05
Speaker 1: me at that point. Now, now, we were frustrated at
28:08
Speaker 1: times because we wanted more information. The law enforcement didn't
28:12
Speaker 1: give us that information right away because frankly, what if
28:15
Speaker 1: I had run to the media, because the media had
28:17
Speaker 1: been very helpful up until that exact moment, And then
28:20
Speaker 1: exactly at that exact moment, they had to have complete
28:22
Speaker 1: secrecy because they had to get in there and get
28:25
Speaker 1: him before he heard about it. Obviously they didn't have
28:28
Speaker 1: cable television where they were, but maybe they had some
28:31
Speaker 1: of their means to know. And so what happened at
28:33
Speaker 1: that point was the sheriff gut involved over there and frankly,
28:37
Speaker 1: and I credit our t B I because my understanding
28:40
Speaker 1: is the sheriff was going to move in and check
28:41
Speaker 1: it out with a couple of patrolmen, and uh, our
28:44
Speaker 1: t B I said, uh no, you don't want to
28:47
Speaker 1: do that. This guy's armed and told about the situation.
28:51
Speaker 1: So they went in with their swat team and took
28:53
Speaker 1: care of business and it and it was two hours
28:55
Speaker 1: away from their sheriff's department through snow. I mean, they
28:58
Speaker 1: just did a phenomenal job and and surrounded the place
29:01
Speaker 1: so that once the gig was up, there was no
29:03
Speaker 1: place for Cummings to go. And so they had they
29:06
Speaker 1: had him wrapped up, and uh, I'm just so proud
29:09
Speaker 1: of that process. And I'll tell you, the family is
29:12
Speaker 1: so immensely thankful to the public for remaining vigilant and
29:17
Speaker 1: interested in this story, because without it, I'm gonna tell
29:20
Speaker 1: you right now, she wouldn't be home. That's it. Without
29:22
Speaker 1: the interest generated through the media, she would still be
29:26
Speaker 1: out there. God forbid, but that's the way we believe
29:29
Speaker 1: it would have been. But instead we had all this
29:31
Speaker 1: coverage and as a result, somebody finally saw them and
29:36
Speaker 1: did the right thing. And uh, and now she's home.
29:39
Speaker 1: It's just amazing that it worked because we were afraid,
29:42
Speaker 1: just like you, we were afraid that we'd never see
29:44
Speaker 1: her again. And for her to finally show up, I
29:47
Speaker 1: gotta tell you, when I met her for the first time,
29:50
Speaker 1: I mean, it was hard for me to keep my
29:51
Speaker 1: composure because it was just I felt like I already
29:53
Speaker 1: knew her. I've never even met her, and uh, and
29:56
Speaker 1: there she was. I wasn't expecting to ever see her
29:58
Speaker 1: and I got to meet her, and and it's just
30:01
Speaker 1: been surreal. Jason, I understand this week, you're going to
30:04
Speaker 1: actually meet this Griffin Berry. He's coming to town and
30:08
Speaker 1: he's gonna be with my good friend Chandler Anderson and
30:10
Speaker 1: Blake Hide, his partner, and they're they're gonna give him
30:13
Speaker 1: a nice check which he earned. And I'm looking forward
30:16
Speaker 1: to meeting this young man. And guess what, he's from
30:18
Speaker 1: Middle Tennessee, went to Britwood Academy and decided he'd go
30:21
Speaker 1: out west and live at that commune. But he's he's
30:24
Speaker 1: a local boy of all things, a local Middle Tennessee
30:27
Speaker 1: native was the one who finally solve them. Wow, you
30:30
Speaker 1: know what, that is really just incredible at such a
30:33
Speaker 1: twist of fate that a local guy helps bring her home.
30:37
Speaker 1: And I want to just address something you said about missteps.
30:41
Speaker 1: You know what, every time you do anything, there's a misstep.
30:46
Speaker 1: You know, think about all those Olympians. They don't do
30:48
Speaker 1: it perfectly. The first time they practice practice practice, they
30:51
Speaker 1: fall off the beam, they trip, they fall, they get hurt,
30:54
Speaker 1: they get up, they try again. And that's what law
30:57
Speaker 1: enforcement does. Everybody's always so darn hard onlaw enforcement. Oh
31:00
Speaker 1: you did this wrong, you did that wrong. You know
31:03
Speaker 1: in hindsight, hindsight is always twenty what you should have,
31:07
Speaker 1: could have, would have done. But when you're in it
31:10
Speaker 1: and you're trying your best. Yes, you're gonna have mistakes,
31:16
Speaker 1: you're gonna do some things wrong in your effort to
31:19
Speaker 1: do something right. And I mean I would leave court
31:22
Speaker 1: a million times and just kick myself, why didn't I
31:24
Speaker 1: do this? Why didn't I do that? Well, when you're
31:26
Speaker 1: in the middle of it, and you're in the arena
31:30
Speaker 1: and you're dirty and you're bleeding and you're sweating and
31:33
Speaker 1: you're hurting and you're trying to keep going, you know what, Yeah,
31:36
Speaker 1: you're gonna screw up. But in the end, they won.
31:41
Speaker 1: They they saved her life. So I'm very sensitive about people,
31:47
Speaker 1: you know, trashing the police by what they could have
31:50
Speaker 1: done and should have done, because they're trying. For Pete's sake.
31:54
Speaker 1: Nobody else is out there doing it. It's the police
31:57
Speaker 1: doing it, the FBI, the tb I, they are the ones.
32:01
Speaker 1: So they're the ones putting their life on the line.
32:04
Speaker 1: You referenced the trs in the arena quote, which is
32:07
Speaker 1: one of my favorites. Um and uh, and that's so true.
32:11
Speaker 1: I mean, they're they're in the arena. Um and anybody
32:15
Speaker 1: involved in the legal system is and and frankly, in
32:17
Speaker 1: any human endeavor you do your best and uh and
32:22
Speaker 1: you spend yourself in a worthy cause, as he said,
32:24
Speaker 1: and and uh and you do fail again and again,
32:27
Speaker 1: but you get up, you know, and uh, I love
32:30
Speaker 1: the last part of that says, so that your place
32:33
Speaker 1: will not be with those cold and timid souls who
32:35
Speaker 1: know neither victory nor defeat. And uh and so you're
32:39
Speaker 1: in the arena and and these guys clearly were and
32:42
Speaker 1: are in the arena. And I gotta I gotta tell
32:45
Speaker 1: you personally, I have nothing but praise for the efforts
32:49
Speaker 1: of law enforcement in this case, from the local level
32:51
Speaker 1: all the way to the federal level. Uh. I was
32:54
Speaker 1: immensely impressed with their dedication. They're they're absolute, uh insatiable
32:59
Speaker 1: to desire to find her and rescue her. Um and
33:03
Speaker 1: they did it. And it's just one of those stories
33:05
Speaker 1: where it's going to have a happy ending. I mean,
33:08
Speaker 1: we're already there, but there's a long ways to go.
33:10
Speaker 1: But uh, but but this thing's gonna end as it should.
33:14
Speaker 1: It should have never happened, but now that it happened,
33:17
Speaker 1: it's going to end the way it ought to happen.
33:19
Speaker 1: And that means commings behind bars and Elizabeth living a
33:23
Speaker 1: happy and free life. You know, I know this is
33:25
Speaker 1: also tortuous to his wife to see your husband do
33:29
Speaker 1: this and leave you after all these years, and I
33:32
Speaker 1: mean after I gave birth to the twins and Lucy
33:35
Speaker 1: and I almost died during all that. I mean, if
33:39
Speaker 1: my husband left me and after all that, Honey, you'd
33:43
Speaker 1: have to get the shotgun out of my hand, okay
33:45
Speaker 1: and taken away from me. Jason, I'll definitely hire you,
33:50
Speaker 1: you know, to defend me if I ever have to
33:53
Speaker 1: shoot my husband. Okay. So anyway, I only wish I
33:57
Speaker 1: could shove him in the jail cell myself and turn
34:01
Speaker 1: the key and throw it away. But I guess I
34:03
Speaker 1: will leave that to the jury and the warden at
34:07
Speaker 1: whatever correctional institute he may end up at. Jason Wiley
34:12
Speaker 1: and especially you, Francy ab but I wish you had
34:14
Speaker 1: said more. But once again, Whatley hogged it all. Jason,
34:18
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. You're awesome and I
34:24
Speaker 1: feel that over all these weeks, you know, I've met
34:27
Speaker 1: a colleague and a friend, Jason, and You've really been awesome. Again,
34:33
Speaker 1: I want to thank everyone, including our sponsor, Simply Safe,
34:37
Speaker 1: making home security and fire protection available to everybody now
34:43
Speaker 1: simply safe dot com slash Nancy Nancy Grace, signing off
34:49
Speaker 1: once again from Crime Stories. Goodbye friend,