Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep238 'Motivational Interviewing For Client Communication’ - Reflection with Daniel Williams

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Ep238 'Motivational Interviewing For Client Communication’ - Reflection with Daniel Williams · The STA Clinician Podcast

0:00
Music.
0:12
Hey Phil, how are you doing? Welcome to episode 238 of the Sports Therapy Association podcast.
0:18
My name is Matt Phillips, creative on chatlive.com and as always this episode
0:22
is being recorded eight o'clock on a Tuesday on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube channel.
0:28
So we have reached the fourth episode of our new reflection series on the Sports
0:33
Therapy Association podcast in which I invite a listener of the podcast onto
0:38
the show to chat with me about a past episode of the the STA podcast that has
0:43
particularly affected their daily practice as a soft tissue therapist.
0:47
There is about 234 to choose from.
0:50
So if you are interested in being one of those guests, then all you need to
0:54
do is choose one of those episodes.
0:56
As long as we haven't talked about it yet, then feel free to contact me.
0:59
Easiest way is probably matt at the sta.co.uk or hit me up on social media.
1:03
And then basically, as long as you've got a good internet connection,
1:06
a laptop, mic and webcam, then you come on for about 30 minutes and talk about
1:11
that episode and how it's affected you. It's as simple as that.
1:13
As I've said before in previous shows, everyone feels great after doing it.
1:18
Even if you're nervous, then hit me up on social media.
1:21
We'll have a little Zoom call or something beforehand just to settle your nerves.
1:23
And believe me, it's great for you as a confidence builder, as a personal development
1:28
and all those sort of things.
1:29
You will feel better for it afterwards. And it can lead to great networking
1:32
options and possibilities and help you branch out in your own business.
1:35
So that's why we're doing it.
1:37
In this episode, very shortly. I'm going to be joined by Daniel Williams,
1:41
movement therapist and DNM and MI educator, who's going to be reflecting on
1:45
episode 64, which was called Motivational Interviewing for Client Communication,
1:51
which was recorded way back, way back.
1:53
This is great. Daniel's taking us all the way back to August 2021,
1:55
where the guest was the marvellous Dr. Gary Mendoza.
2:00
Before we bring up Danny, I'd just like to say thank you to last week's guests,
2:04
who were Sarah Jones and Sally Martin of the ST School, who came in to reflect on episode 214,
2:13
What Values Make a Professional Therapist, which was recorded back in September 2024,
2:18
with guest Martin Christensen from Norway of the Friday Physio Confession podcast.
2:24
We had a great chat. It's all about professionalism. And do we sometimes go
2:27
overboard a little bit by saying, we must never swear. We must always wear smart clothes.
2:31
Does sometimes that risk the chance of not being fluid and reflecting the client
2:38
or patient in front of us and maybe limiting communication?
2:42
So there's a nice segue to tonight's episode, which is obviously going to be
2:45
all about communication.
2:46
And if you have joined us live talking about communication, then do feel free
2:50
to leave questions in the comments.
2:52
If you do come in and leave comments and i can bring that up on the screen so
2:56
nicky mansfield they said bonsoir mes amis.
2:59
Bonsoir that's nicky multilingual we are here us again murphy
3:02
mbe is in here as well saying good evening all uh founder of
3:05
the sta gary just come through the door as well who says good evening all hope
3:08
you enjoyed the long weekend it was a long weekend wasn't it but it was it was
3:12
cool good to see gary and other people coming to the door as well so yes fire
3:16
away this is the reason to join live people ask questions as they're on your
3:20
mind get it done don't rely on making time to listen to the podcast later on.
3:24
Now, take advantage of the fact we've got the guest and we're talking about it now.
3:28
Right. So there we go. Let's get on with tonight's show. I shall now bring up
3:32
Daniel Williams, movement therapist and DNM MI educator.
3:36
Music.
3:50
Hello, Matt. You all right? Hello, everyone. I'm very well. Good to see you.
3:53
I like seeing you. I love seeing you at therapy expo.
3:56
I think a lot of people who have met you will agree that you're a lovely bloke
3:58
and a great educator. So I really appreciate you giving us your time to be on the show.
4:03
Thank you very much. Your beard's getting bigger every time.
4:06
I mean, it depends on that. But normally when I go to the bar,
4:09
I'm just shattered and I've gone there for some social grooming.
4:12
And I just sit back and go, yeah, yeah, just cut it. And I walk out with whatever they've done.
4:17
So yeah it's led to changes but for
4:20
people who aren't aware of you and and the great work that you do with
4:23
people like mike grice then uh yeah can you give us a
4:25
little i know it's tricky especially with the amount of things you've got going on
4:28
but give us a little elevator picture of what you do and where
4:31
you are in the world uh yeah so i work out of
4:34
a clinic in harbourne and i do like
4:37
person-centered therapy where like movement therapy sort of
4:40
stuff from mike's movement therapy diploma that he did so
4:43
very much centered around lots of exercise therapy people
4:46
have some manual therapy and calming shit down building shit
4:49
up basically lots of reglin and stuff as well so all that
4:52
kind of merged into one to kind of provide as
4:56
somebody with the person-centered care as much as we can
4:58
always striving to do better and trying to pass on what i've learned to other
5:03
people as well so hence why i've got into dnm and motivational interviewing
5:08
and stuff and everything i learn i try and learn from the best if i can and
5:13
then And if I'm in a position where I can pass it on, then brilliant.
5:17
If not, I'll learn a bit more.
5:20
Fantastically put. What a great communicator, which is good because that's what
5:23
you want the show to talk about. But yeah, that's really beautiful.
5:25
And I would feel guilty if we didn't just mention what DNM is,
5:30
if I need to honor Diane Jacobs and the great work that she's done in the past and continues to.
5:33
So yeah, to give us a little, we won't talk too much about it, but what is DNM?
5:37
Dermoneuromodulation. So basically it is a fancy way of saying skin, nerve and change.
5:42
She had to give it a word for something. It's just an explanatory
5:45
model for touch and manual therapy and more of a
5:48
neurocentric approach in what she
5:51
has come up with the evidence that she collated and put
5:54
into a book so it's all out of control so if you ask
5:57
her for all the references she'll freely give them all over to you so
6:00
she's not holding anything back behind a payroll apart from
6:03
a book she'll probably give it away free if she could so she
6:07
would do and she now amazing for anybody who hasn't or
6:10
doesn't follow diane jacobs and it's well worth following still very
6:13
active on social media often just to comment on
6:16
the state of the world today but yeah look up we often often our
6:19
papers are quoted around the work she's done with people like
6:21
jason silvanel a real yeah legend in in
6:24
manual therapy and someone who yeah you should definitely read to people so yeah
6:27
and daniel is teaching her course dnm dermoneuromodulation
6:32
which is a deserves an episode in itself
6:35
at a later date which would be great but we don't
6:38
have time for that because tonight it's all about this about dr gary
6:41
mendoza who was with us a while ago back in
6:44
august 2021 obviously you've taken over his
6:47
course which we'll go into in a moment but what was
6:50
it about that course or that particular episode and motivation of interviewing
6:54
which you think is important for soft tissue therapists who may be listening
6:58
tonight so yeah i watched it when it came out and i watched it again over the
7:03
last couple of days just to refresh myself and give me some stuff to talk about and stuff like that.
7:08
And there's lots of things on there. But the thing that attracted me to it in
7:12
the first place sounds like a 90s dialogue.
7:16
The broken. Back in time, man.
7:20
Yeah. But yeah, the thing that attracted me to a motivational interview was
7:24
there was always something...
7:25
The especially with gary and what he was putting out initially anyway
7:28
because i did i did his course before the sta chat so
7:31
i'd already done his course by the time that came out so i was
7:34
kind of looking at the sta chat with open
7:38
eyes a little bit and it different to somebody who's never heard of it and then
7:42
watched the sta chat so i appreciate that but it was always there was always
7:46
something difficult for me when you we've probably all been through it especially
7:50
if you've been through the pain side stuff in the bps model where your pain
7:53
side's education vomited on someone and they have,
7:58
nah like sorry so you're saying it's all in my
8:01
head and you're like no no then you're backtracking from there and
8:04
then you don't get that client adherence when they're
8:06
coming back and they're not doing their exercises or they're not
8:10
doing they're not helping themselves or anything
8:12
like that you're trying to spout stuff at them and throw be
8:16
an operator rather than an interactor with them and it very
8:19
much is the more i looked into motivational interviewing that
8:22
it was a communication version of dna so you've.
8:25
Got the dna which kind of very much the.
8:28
Physical manual therapy that the touching and therapy version
8:32
of interacting with the person but the
8:35
the communication and the the side is very
8:38
much person-centered from that angle as well so it's kind of
8:41
sort of it made sense to me to do that and think
8:44
about it and engage my clients before we made
8:47
a plan and then go forward and evoke what their
8:50
actually reasons are for coming here because we just
8:52
presume or take it on face value asking closed questions and
8:56
not listening enough so i always knew there was something there
8:58
and the reason was that i didn't
9:02
get the outcomes i wanted i thought i was good and
9:06
then then you kind of get humbled and you're like well why why
9:09
am why aren't i helping people change or why
9:12
aren't i help people get but why aren't i helping people get
9:14
better when there's got to be another way it's got
9:17
to be something i'm missing there and i think that's what drew me
9:20
to that and then but that's what gary says in
9:23
that episode is that he says
9:26
you can he was he's been a personal trainer for however many years
9:29
but exercise is a swear word and you say
9:32
to somebody to exercise that it has negative connotations to
9:35
them whereby if you're just playing games with them or
9:38
something that you might have elicit a different response or gamify the rehab
9:42
exercises for some people and it's just being person-centered and treating the
9:46
person in front of you so there's lots of things that episode brought up with
9:50
Gary that he didn't say on the
9:52
course and actually elaborated on in that chat a little bit more as well.
9:57
That's really interesting. I really like your link between DNM,
10:01
which kind of, rather than just touching an arm or a leg or doing something
10:04
with soft tissue, you involve the rest of the person through the neural system. That's great.
10:08
But I hadn't thought of that connection with, that's what motivational interviewing is.
10:11
You know, you're actually involving the person behind the words and painting
10:14
off the layers and allowing them. Very cool connection.
10:17
And you're teaching both. I get it now. I get it. It makes so much sense.
10:22
Also another thing which you mentioned which i think is
10:24
really important is you kind of blase you kind
10:27
of said oh i noticed that my outcomes weren't that good but i reckon that's
10:31
something which a lot of clinicians don't do do you think that's part of the
10:35
problem not everybody notices their failures in fact they probably subconsciously
10:41
purposely sweep them under the carpet don't they so have you experienced that
10:44
do you find that's a problem with therapists.
10:47
Yeah probably i think you you have that confirmation bias
10:50
where you you believe that if a patient doesn't come
10:53
back to you you've fixed them probably and
10:56
you just sweep under the carpet and go no it's done that's good now but what
10:59
you don't know is the amount of people that have come to other therapists
11:03
or people like us and have gone i went to this person didn't
11:06
help me i went to this person didn't help me and so i'm hoping you
11:10
can do something different and that's where again it's
11:13
like good communication and actually asking the client
11:16
what they've done in the past and what they haven't and stuff like that can
11:19
get you to the root of oh well if that therapist has tried
11:22
that and that didn't work i'm not doing that i'm going
11:25
to try a different approach and go down there and that's just effective communication between
11:28
you and you and the client but yeah i
11:31
think there is a confirmation bias between that and wanting to
11:34
fix someone and when you if you are wanting
11:37
to fix someone you're setting yourself up for failure
11:40
because when you don't do doing the things that you do there
11:44
is an always an element of a flare-up happening and then that kind of knocks
11:48
their confidence in you and then your engagement with that person and that rapport
11:53
gets a knock a little bit and they'll go well you told me this and you told
11:56
me you'd be done in four four sessions and it's been eight or something or you
12:00
strung me along for a year and so But, but as Gary,
12:03
I remember Gary saying to me once it's like, always tell them on the first session
12:08
that there are going to be flare ups.
12:10
And then when they occur, you can turn around and go, I told you there's going
12:14
to be flare-ups and there's going to be flare-ups with your pain or there's going to be setbacks.
12:19
And when we planned it in the first stage, we knew we were going to have to
12:24
plan through them and go back and take a recheck and reassess, then go forward again.
12:29
But you've already done that from the start. You've addressed it.
12:33
So it's within your plan from the start.
12:35
So you're not pulling the wool over their eyes. You've been completely open with that person.
12:40
That's really good. And I'm sure tonight I could have like one of those bingo
12:44
checklists of great things that Gary said, speaking about motivational interviewing.
12:48
And that was indeed, yeah, one of them. I've forgotten about that one, actually.
12:51
Because we seem to, we go through phases where we think maintenance is an ugly word.
12:55
And when the client does get ill again, we kind of say, oh, we have to come back in for more.
13:00
And straight away, the client's like, oh, what are you talking about?
13:02
So yeah, it makes perfect sense. And it's lovely because I think we'll have
13:05
a few of these tonight in the show.
13:07
It has tiny little tweaks of the way you work, which can just save so much headache
13:11
and also improve your business plan, you know, and make it so much easier and
13:15
take responsibility away from you. So that's really cool.
13:18
For people who are listening and have never heard of MI, or maybe they have,
13:23
and they've heard kind of a bastardized version, because there's a little bit
13:25
like any kind of tool, there's different versions out there.
13:29
But you've studied, not only with Dr. Gary Mendoza, but you've actually studied
13:32
with one of the co-founders in person. Tell us a bit about that.
13:35
That's been great for you.
13:37
Yeah. I mean, as soon as I found out that Gary was retiring,
13:40
which was a bit early on, I suppose, compared to when he put it public,
13:43
I asked him if I could take over and do different things.
13:46
And I'd read the book, done all that stuff. And he mentioned to get in touch
13:50
with Stephen Rolnick. He's based in Cardiff.
13:53
And I started doing courses with him.
13:56
So he does in-person courses once a year, one beginner, one advanced,
14:00
all in person for two days.
14:02
And he's, yeah, brilliant lovely bloke like i've
14:05
uh did did a couple of the courses myself and then got
14:07
asked to go back and help him assist on the
14:10
courses as well so i've done several several assists with
14:13
him one was just being cameraman and so i still
14:16
learn a lot having your mouth closed yeah yeah yeah
14:20
so i get a free lunch so yeah i'll video
14:23
for a bit but yeah no he's uh going to just join
14:26
for a drink with that and it's fantastic the the fountain of
14:29
knowledge and the stories that he has like some of
14:32
the stuff he's constantly so he is wanting to retire
14:35
within the next couple years and pass things on to orla who
14:38
orla adams who is a fantastic dietician in cardiff
14:41
as well and she's a member of mint their motivational
14:44
interviewing network of trainers and she is she's awesome
14:47
and she runs most of the courses now to be honest and
14:50
steven's just there kind of lending an ear doing different things and
14:53
and being there because he's him
14:56
and then orla is fantastic though and she does deliver
14:59
it in such a brilliant way so she will
15:02
be taking it over going forward which is which is
15:05
brilliant but yeah it's just nice to get those different
15:08
approaches because they've been working for years with MI and how fluidly it
15:13
starts comes off their tongue even when she's presenting and he's presenting
15:16
it's you can tell and you can nitpick things so and see oh that's MI that's
15:21
there that's that's the style of communication that MI is and you can start
15:24
seeing it in everyday conversations.
15:26
But yeah, then they recommended me to go and do a MIDI coding course.
15:32
So I did that last year as well, where starting at 10 o'clock at night,
15:36
like online with some Americans over, so it was on, I think it was Pacific time
15:42
as well. So it was a fair way.
15:45
I wasn't the worst. There was a couple of guys in Hong Kong and they were like
15:48
wee hours in the morning.
15:49
So I did not want to be them. But what that was, the MITI coding is basically
15:54
what they used to prove that motivational interviewing works in an environment.
16:00
So they had to come up with a system to research it.
16:04
So all the research and evidence that's produced for MI is based on this MITI
16:08
coding system. So if you want to look that up, that's really cool.
16:11
And you can score people's conversations. So that's what we would do.
16:16
And that's what Gary's done as well beforehand is when you would put your homework
16:22
in for him and your video of your conversation, he would run it through transcription
16:26
and then pick up and score.
16:29
Like that's an open question. That's an affirmation. That's a reflection.
16:32
That's a simple reflection. That's a complex reflection.
16:35
And then work out the ratios between it. And then there's certain ratios.
16:39
I can't remember off the top of my head.
16:41
To make it an mi compliant conversation uh
16:45
and that is that was full on that was four days of
16:48
like six hours at a time so sitting on my bum
16:50
in front of a computer i see being a manual therapist
16:53
and in the gym most of the time i did not appreciate that so you've
16:58
you've you've dropped a few kind of words and
17:01
terminology in there which i'd like to get into for people who
17:04
haven't heard of mi before people
17:08
who are in the comments don't forget make the most of this and ask some
17:10
questions if any of you have any experience using techniques for motivation
17:13
interviewing them do feel free to share that if you've got any questions
17:16
maybe we've got daniel here who is trained with the one
17:20
of the co-founders of the whole technique anyway so i'm
17:23
sure daniel will be able to answer or if not he'll spin it
17:25
back around to you and you'll have the answer which is amazing which would be great
17:28
but yeah so so some of the things you mentioned what are
17:31
the what are the what is the core element of motivational interviewing what's
17:34
it about so it's it's it's
17:37
a style of communication rather than a technique so it's
17:40
it's more it's more about being empathetic and
17:43
authentic to yourself as well as other people so you're actually trying to find
17:49
their motivations for wanting to change and it's it's very person-centered so
17:56
that's why it works so well with dnm as well and it's it's basically guiding
18:00
to elicit and strengthen motivation to change in in a nutshell.
18:04
You don't want to be persuading or trying to fix them.
18:07
And that is one of the things that a couple of the changes that have happened
18:12
from the third edition since Gary's podcast that he did to the fourth edition
18:16
book that came out last year.
18:18
There's been a few changes in language, which we'll go over in a little bit, hopefully.
18:22
But yeah, there's a few things there. So it's not about trying to fix people,
18:26
which perfectly sort of integrates with the Operator Interactor paper that Jason
18:30
Silvanel and Diane Jacobs did on how we should approach manual and physical therapy.
18:36
So it kind of, yeah, it kind of works together, very person-centered.
18:39
You don't want to be telling someone what to do. It's very much sort of guiding
18:42
them, working with them.
18:44
And a quote that Steven Rolick always uses is, you want to be dancing with them,
18:50
dancing with your client rather than wrestling.
18:52
If you're wrestling with your client, you're fighting against them you're
18:55
trying to change them forcefully if you're dancing with them you're guiding
18:59
them through and you're leading them in a different way that's very nice i didn't
19:04
realize that was his i used that in a podcast i was on the other day and i said
19:07
i can't remember where i heard this but now i know so thank you of course it
19:10
came from me so many of the girls do,
19:13
but yeah no it often is that imagery which really helps the coin drop for for
19:17
yeah therapist thinking how,
19:20
I don't know if I'm putting you in the spot here, but could you give us like
19:22
a working example, maybe, something of how maybe some of our listeners do do
19:28
something when a client comes in to how maybe they could tweak it a little bit
19:32
to open the door to what you're talking about?
19:35
Yeah. I mean, one thing that has drastically changed my practice recently,
19:40
actually, is because this was
19:41
all great, but it was the introduction of transcription software and AI.
19:44
So using an app that you it records
19:47
your your conversation and then will
19:50
give you the transcript afterwards and it can
19:53
use ai and put it into your physio notes if you want to for
19:56
quick and easy access to those added into your software just
19:59
make sure they're right but it gives a perfect
20:02
example of being able to record your conversation
20:05
with someone be present with them and look them in the eye
20:08
and face them instead of being
20:11
like that and oh yeah what was this and
20:14
yeah asking very closed questions so one
20:17
thing that mike grice he told us to do from the very start so he's been from
20:21
a teaching background utilizing a lot of this stuff anyway it just made his
20:26
practice a little bit more and every and ours as well but yeah he told us from
20:30
the very start is to get the pre-screening forms out there and if you're getting
20:33
pre-screening forms with the closed.
20:35
Questions already done then when you're in with
20:38
the room with them you can start asking open questions
20:41
and start to engage with them straight away instead of
20:44
have an interview process that feels more like an interview rather
20:47
than an actual conversation and a collaboration to help them and that's that's
20:53
profound i think and just to clarify for people who aren't aware what do you
20:56
mean by an open question so an open question draws out thoughts and ambivalence
21:01
to So you're asking an open-ended question that is not a yes or no.
21:07
So a closed question is yes or no, or certain answers where you're asking for
21:10
their name or something like that.
21:12
Or are you male or female or anything like that? What is, how cool are you?
21:18
These sorts of things and close questions where you typically get a yes or a
21:21
no response. And they're very close.
21:23
They will usually close a conversation, but an open question will open that
21:29
conversation to more elaboration on their part.
21:32
So if you wait and hold space, they will usually give you more than you think as well.
21:38
So that is one thing that you can all, or introduced straight away with anything is just hold space.
21:46
Hold back, count to four or five or whatever you feel is comfortable for you
21:51
before you say anything when your client has stopped speaking.
21:55
Because more often than not, like as Gary mentioned before several times,
22:00
if you hold that space, you feel awkward, but they'll feel awkward.
22:04
And what do you want to do when it's awkward you want to talk so if
22:08
they've got something to say they'll probably elaborate it especially men
22:11
like men will usually start to
22:14
elaborate a little bit more if you give them space and time
22:17
to actually talk so so let's put this
22:20
into just to give our listeners an idea so someone's
22:23
come in i don't know they're presenting pain around about achilles or something
22:27
like that so give an example of a closed question which you might people listening
22:31
might direct to that patient or client if they've come in with pain around there
22:35
what might a close question be and then how what would be a better open question
22:38
which would open up okay does it hurt on the.
22:43
Achilles tendon itself okay so obviously yes or no yes yes or no okay yeah yeah
22:48
so you're asking those sorts of questions does it hurt here does it hurt does
22:52
it hurt if you do this does it hurt if you do this very close question if you
22:56
if you're asking an open question you're asking where does it hurt?
23:00
And then they will elaborate and say, well, it hurts here.
23:04
And they might go, well, it hurts here, here, and here. And they might give more information.
23:09
So the information that you get from asking a closed question is very limited
23:13
because you're only getting the information that you are seeking.
23:18
But if you ask an open question, you might get information that you wouldn't
23:21
even thought of that drives that conversation into a different area and goes,
23:26
oh, well, that opens up so many more doors.
23:28
The amount of times I talk to, I'm not perfect, but by all means it's driving
23:33
to be as best as we can and we'll continue to do so.
23:36
But yeah, it's very, the amount of times I come up with it and go,
23:40
oh, I should have asked that then.
23:42
Should have asked an open question there. and then you you ask it anyway afterwards
23:45
and you just drive the conversation and they take that conversation in a different
23:49
route so you go hard that's that's thrown at all i didn't know that.
23:54
Yeah i enjoyed that i've watched actually knowing this
23:57
episode was coming up i wanted to watch a video of
24:00
steven volnick that i hadn't heard before and i found one he was talking to
24:03
crossfit i can't remember how long ago it was it wasn't
24:06
that long ago because he was talking about getting to sport and parenthood and
24:09
stuff like that but yeah he was kind of he made the point of
24:12
the beautiful thing about MI is because you are
24:15
practicing not talking and like putting your hand
24:18
over your mouth maybe or whatever things that Gary said and giving
24:22
that and giving the responsibility for the actual
24:24
person you're talking to to talk then it does give you time to kind of think
24:28
during that as well as clocking what they're saying but to kind of think how's
24:31
this going oh that's interesting that we've just done they just opened up so
24:34
you can actually practice it whilst you're doing it and see how it goes and
24:38
rather for people who are stressing out thinking oh my god what have I got to
24:40
do next It's not like a conversation where you're talking and thinking,
24:43
what am I going to say next?
24:44
You've got plenty of time now to actually sit back and then think,
24:48
oh, that's interesting.
24:48
And it takes a lot of the pressure, which I think is a good point. Really, yeah.
24:53
So great. And I liked what you said about the thing about pausing is what normally
24:59
happens if you do give a pause and then they continue?
25:02
What's kind of different about what they then come out with?
25:05
It's usually more in depth. You're going to get that surface level conscious
25:10
kind of response that they've been thinking of.
25:14
It's on their minds. That response of that question, they're probably straight
25:18
away, they're going to give that.
25:19
If you wait, they have to start delving into their own subconscious little bit
25:24
and start to think, oh, he wants more.
25:27
Oh, actually, yeah, is there more?
25:31
And they start to do that. so they'll start to be in their own head and go whether
25:35
this is is happening in their own head and they've got it in a voice or not
25:39
it's it is a story for another day but it's they start to give more information
25:44
basically is that is the outcome they start to give more in-depth.
25:48
Information that will draw out thoughts or
25:52
different ambivalence from different areas that we can start
25:55
to latch on to and go oh i'm going to drive that
25:58
conversation that way instead that was interesting what you just said
26:01
there let's go down there that's more interesting or
26:04
i want to know more about that and then when you reflect back
26:07
on that you can gain more information into
26:10
that area of things which is something that they probably
26:13
wouldn't have thought to give and the amount of times somebody would
26:16
come up and go oh i don't know whether it's relevant
26:19
but this isn't this and how many times
26:22
is that hugely relevant and then
26:25
you go okay and then you can sort of steer that conversation
26:28
into that a little bit it makes them think so i guess part of appreciating how
26:33
this works is realizing that i mean maybe does it help to first of all understand
26:40
that to help this person it's not going to be all with your hands you're not
26:43
going to be i mean a lot of that is important and involved maybe for reasons
26:46
you didn't think but in order to appreciate,
26:49
the success that am i can give you do you have to have already kind of thought,
26:53
that patient has got a lot of the answers. I put a lot of more power in the
26:57
subjective rather than the objective.
26:59
Is that something which helps to get the point of MI?
27:03
Yeah, I think so.
27:06
I think for me, the role of MI is just being present with that person and authentic
27:13
and empathetic with the person in front of me.
27:17
And that's the sort of spirit of MI they talk
27:20
about and it's it's different things for different people you have
27:22
that but you have that collaboration and authenticity and
27:26
stuff like that it's very person-centered at
27:29
the whole of it so you are dealing with the person in front of you and if
27:32
you can engage with that person they're going to give
27:34
you so much more information than just a closed question
27:38
that you or that you're writtling off on
27:41
your form so yeah i think it's sort of it
27:44
allows for just more effective communication as
27:48
well because you could go through a whole hour of
27:51
just a normal conversation of closed questions seeking the relevant information
27:54
that you want but with certain guided
27:57
questions and not in a technique but a style
28:00
of just get dancing with the client in front of you you can gain and elicit
28:05
elicit that information that you require without knowing that you require it
28:10
in a very short time and then you can sort of get to those motivations of why
28:14
they want to change It's very difficult for us with MI because.
28:19
Well, not difficult, it's easy for us in one way, because we've already got
28:22
a certain amount of buy-in.
28:24
And MI was originally sort of developed for people with addictions that don't want to change.
28:28
So a lot of these things with MI are built up around trying to get people to
28:33
change when they don't want to and trying to evoke those reasons for change out of them.
28:39
For us, I find that it just helps us develop that buy-in a little bit more,
28:45
evoke more reasons to change why they're here and more of an emotional reason
28:49
why they want to do the things they want to do.
28:52
Well, I can't do this. I can't lift my head up. Well, why?
28:55
What's the reason behind that what's the function behind that and again we always
28:59
told that's because i can't play with the grandkids or something can't get down
29:02
on the floor can't do my sport,
29:04
it's more of an emotional attachment to that and then
29:06
they're going to have more of that buying when they go and do their rehab
29:09
exercises or are they are they
29:12
ready to change or they're ready to change something in their daily
29:15
life or their load management whereby that that's
29:19
going to affect their pain or rehab or whatever because
29:22
clearly something it is a load management issue
29:25
there's something's been amiss and that that's
29:28
probably caused that load versus capacity to be a
29:31
bit at whack and getting them to pull back
29:34
and go let's have a look at your load have a look i had
29:36
to do this today with somebody literally plan their week out and go what are
29:39
you doing in the week because something's clearly not
29:42
right with your recovery or something like that and this is a flare-up that
29:46
has happened about six months down the line so dealing with a flare-up so coming
29:50
back with that and i literally had to tell him today i told you six months ago
29:53
with this would happen and this is what we're going to do like i said we plan
29:57
we strip it back and then we go forward again,
30:00
yeah it's a tough pill to swallow but you could see on his face going yeah you did yeah you do.
30:05
It's almost like it was it was almost like yeah but
30:08
but i did everything right and you're like yeah sometimes
30:11
i told you like at the start like you sometimes you can do everything right
30:15
even myself and you still get injured you still get flare-ups just like life
30:19
and then but that doesn't mean we can't strip it back and build it back up again
30:24
and see what happens yeah it's it's it's very.
30:29
Powerful to be authentic with that person effective communication i think and
30:35
it just guides you in your whole practice is the essence of it, really.
30:39
I guess I like the way you mentioned exercise and persuading somebody to actually
30:43
do their exercises or rehab program that you set them or maybe try and get more
30:48
sleep or eat better or any, there's going to be a behavior change.
30:51
I think that's one of the big things, isn't it, about going from a level three
30:53
where you're not working with injured people.
30:55
And then as soon as you move to a level four, level five, then you are going
30:58
to have to look beyond the calming down of the nervous system,
31:01
calming the shit down, like you say, with the Greg Lehman sort of stuff.
31:03
And obviously that does normally involve a
31:07
behavior change of some form and it could be loading so and
31:10
also we know that one of the biggest problems is
31:13
lack of adherence to exercise and i
31:16
often talk about this and when i'm reflecting on my own practice but and i'm
31:20
hoping there's some listeners out there who maybe even today have thought oh
31:23
that bloody patient doesn't do their exercises how the bloody hell they're thinking
31:26
they can get better if they don't give the exercises that i give them and i
31:29
think a real good coin drop moment that i had and it was because of somebody
31:32
else or something I've read or what I saw on a course was like,
31:36
if they're not doing the exercises, that's got something to do with you.
31:40
Maybe they didn't understand the importance of it. Maybe you gave them too much.
31:44
Maybe you didn't consider the fact that they really aren't going to go to the gym.
31:47
So I think once a therapist pulls that blame down,
31:51
back to themselves without taking too much responsibility, but realises,
31:54
hold on, I didn't get that across to them properly.
31:58
And that's what the communication is, isn't it? As well, it's kind of a two-way
32:01
thing. So if you are a therapist out there who's blaming patients for not doing
32:04
exercises, this is what we're talking about.
32:06
Because that person might not be ready to make that change. And this is what MI is all about.
32:11
It's about trying and leading them down that road through their objections and
32:16
stuff, and then eventually being ready to plan a change in that.
32:19
So great stuff. And we've got a few comments here.
32:22
Nicky Clare-Emmanuel, thanks for joining us live, Nicky.
32:25
She has said, huge key term there, the power of holding safe,
32:30
healthy healing space for open, more revealing space questions.
32:34
The type of assessment makes a huge difference, definitely.
32:37
Yeah, great point. That's holding safe. And there's so many techniques that
32:41
Gary came out with as well, isn't there, about. I liked what he talked about, the writing reflex.
32:45
Let me, you tell me about the writing reflex. I'm sure that's something you
32:48
talk about a lot in your course? Yeah, so the writing reflex is actually something
32:52
that's been changed. Oh my God.
32:54
Yeah. In the fourth edition, it's actually been changed from the writing reflex because it was...
33:01
They've tried to change a lot of the language in the fourth edition
33:04
to more general terms so because it's
33:07
it's going from a more of a superior sort of um
33:10
healthcare or medical sort of standpoint where they've got
33:13
these jargonized sort of words and
33:16
these things to simplify it all so it
33:18
can be used across the world in different environments because
33:22
it is being used in teaching and loads of
33:24
areas in in counseling and stuff and if if the client
33:27
as well as the therapist can understand what is what is
33:30
happening it's a lot easier so this actually goes
33:33
nicely onto those those changes of what has happened
33:36
from 2001 to now so the fourth edition came
33:39
out last year and the writing reflex has been changed for the fixing
33:42
reflex okay makes sense oh it makes more
33:45
sense yeah because we are trying to fix someone we're trying to that
33:48
thing instead of trying to write it and it means the same but it
33:51
just makes a little bit more sense so it really
33:54
just means we're we want to jump to fix people rather
33:57
than collaborate and understand their motives behind it
34:00
so yeah you do want to fix someone even if
34:03
they didn't ask you to that yeah they've come to you for
34:06
help yeah and you instantly want to try and fix it but i
34:09
know from my girlfriend if i try and fix every problem she has no
34:13
he doesn't like that she somehow she
34:17
doesn't like me providing solutions and so i have
34:20
to kind of ask her does she want
34:23
solutions or does she want to be listened to and oh
34:26
you don't put it that way do you yeah not that.
34:29
Way but i was gonna say listen love what do you want a solution.
34:32
I'll just be to sit back and listen to you roundabout way
34:35
i won't tell exactly but yeah i hope
34:38
she's not listening yeah probably is no in my love but yeah i'm hoping listeners
34:43
can understand that yeah the writing reflex or the fixing reflex like telling
34:48
somebody straight because you're sitting there thinking i know the answer to
34:50
this this is what i did on the course i can solve this situation and boom like
34:53
you said earlier vomiting it out but that's a problem with education, isn't it?
34:56
Not on Mike's courses, Mike Grice, obviously, and forward-thinking courses,
34:59
but traditionally, courses still.
35:02
Think they're empowering you by putting you up there
35:05
as somebody who's got all this knowledge and then as soon as a client
35:08
comes to the door all you've got to do is offload that knowledge and that's what
35:11
makes you a great therapist but it's so not that is it no no.
35:14
No and that's the thing i think when you're providing technique-based
35:18
courses as well which mi isn't a
35:21
technique it is a protocol as in like
35:24
you have these paths and that is
35:27
what another change that's come up as well on in lmi is
35:30
that it's no longer called processes that you go
35:33
through they're called tasks that you can jump in and out of so
35:36
it isn't a process where you have to engage then
35:39
you have to go to the next level then you have to go to the next level up.
35:42
To the next level and then oh i'm allowed to plan with them
35:45
now it's like no you might have to go back
35:48
and forth up and down tasks at different point so you
35:51
might have to go back to engaging because you you get a
35:54
bit of discord with them and you have to engage them again because
35:57
you found something that they didn't like or they have
36:00
created some discord in the conversation or you've created some
36:03
discord in the conversation that has resulted in you need
36:06
to engage them back again and invoke more out of them so and
36:09
that might have to happen over several it's not
36:13
in one session this could happen over weeks this could happen
36:15
over months so during your calming shit down
36:19
phase where you might have to provide more manual therapy
36:22
than you would like to to get them loaded and stuff
36:25
you might have to engage a lot more and manual therapy can
36:28
be a perfect part of communicating engaging
36:31
with that client i feel to get that by and get them on board and then you can
36:36
start to evoke the reasons for change later on it doesn't have to all be done
36:39
in that session not that first session it's it's developing that rapport with
36:43
someone that communication over time but yeah it's if you're teaching a technique, a how-to,
36:49
one, two, three, four, five, you do this step, this step, this step.
36:53
You're trying to fit people into a box where they're not wanting to be in a box.
36:58
So if you get taught the tasks or the methods behind it, you can apply that
37:05
or what you know everywhere to that person individually.
37:09
So I think that's where that person-centered approach for
37:12
any course that you're doing if you know the prop the the
37:15
methods and the process behind it basically you can
37:18
you can help them a lot more because you don't have to be stuck
37:21
you can actually you can go on a different path
37:24
with them if you need to you you freedom basically to do oh i'll do a bit manual
37:28
therapy today with you if you want if somebody comes in and they're requesting
37:32
acupuncture or something oh i've had really good results with acupuncture before
37:36
i don't normally do acupuncture But I know for that engagement, I would probably do it.
37:42
And that's fine because I know that if they have really good results with it
37:46
and they want a bit of dry needling and I'm qualified to do it and they love it,
37:51
That gives me the opportunity to engage with them, talk to them,
37:54
get them going, and give them a bit more of what I think they probably need
37:58
to get better and plan their rehab more effectively.
38:03
So be it. That's fine. And if it helps calm shit down so they can build it up, brilliant.
38:08
Well put. That's great. And you're still, for people who are worried,
38:11
just still being evidence-informed.
38:12
Because there's like 300-plus RCT papers showing how that sort of thing.
38:16
I think, I think I can't remember, you might know actually, but I think it was
38:20
somebody who's worked with Stephen on occasions, names escape me,
38:24
but she was involved in a study about empathy.
38:27
And I think it showed quite clearly that that was the one. Yeah.
38:31
How, how empathy can often affect patient outcome much more,
38:34
be much more of a key factor than knowledge and experience and skill.
38:37
But it's not that easy, is it? I think, and I wanted to make sure we're coming,
38:41
I'm trying to make these shorter, these podcasts, but you know what,
38:44
it's such an interesting listening to you and the topic.
38:46
But i think um for listeners out there there's often this case because we're
38:52
in we're in this business we kind of presume that we are good listeners because
38:56
we work every day with loads of people but there's so much which we could do
39:00
better than there which doesn't necessarily come naturally it's nothing to be
39:03
ashamed of but give us some examples of that.
39:07
So things where we're overconfident our listening skills
39:10
and then things little things which we could do better to
39:13
become better listeners which unless we are taught by yourself or
39:16
somebody or read about it we wouldn't even imagine doing yeah yeah
39:19
i mean i think that's the thing you do think you're you're good at communication i
39:22
thought i was even doing mmi and you just get to
39:25
that point of uh sort of the dunning-kruger effect where uh
39:28
you you are confident in what you're doing and then you get humbled a little
39:32
bit like oh oh yeah that's i'm not as good as i thought or you get into a situation
39:37
whereby you're talking about different things and different styles of communication
39:41
and coming back to those core principles if it's the person in front of you
39:45
you're trying to communicate with so.
39:47
Be curious. And one thing I learned from a girlfriend actually recently is seek to understand.
39:54
I think that's from Franklin Covey, I think it is.
39:57
And if you, that's not from MI, but something different, but it encompasses
40:01
it better as an overall thing is if you seek to understand, which is very much
40:06
in the spirit of MI anyway,
40:08
you're trying to understand the person in front of you and not show how good
40:13
you are at communicating and listening.
40:15
Because that is one thing that i learned especially on
40:18
top of it like thinking i knew a lot and you learn
40:21
something new every day but yeah if you seek to understand in
40:24
every conversation you have you're going to ask more open questions
40:27
because you're going to seek more you're going to seek more information
40:30
from that person in different ways and then
40:33
you understand and reflect back so it
40:36
perfectly sort of melds melds back into mi and
40:39
what you would do in those processes so another
40:43
thing that you could do is the the old school
40:45
old school well the third edition it was illicit provide
40:49
illicit but that has been changed to simply ask offer ask so you're asking for
40:54
permission to give information and then you ask again you offer and come back
41:00
so you're basically sort of asking for permission for things so it's which is
41:05
really weird to do in a general conversation like try.
41:09
Your family or uh you loved ones because
41:11
they'll turn around and go what the hell are you talking about so it's
41:15
it's it's very very difficult to like throw those in but simply asking if and
41:22
i've tried to do this with my personal relationships as well like i'll start
41:26
and i'll start doing it i'll start giving information straight away i'll be
41:29
like this explaining a situation and i'll cut myself off and go, do you even want to know?
41:37
For instance, I was talking about a car and I was talking about diesel engines
41:41
and petrol engines and spark plugs versus glow plugs and stuff. If,
41:46
And I was talking to my girlfriend the other day and literally I started really,
41:50
oh, the difference between this and this.
41:51
And I went, do you actually want to know why that works? And she goes, no, not really.
41:59
She's just a lucky woman. So that saved me rabbiting on for half an hour about
42:06
something that you didn't care about.
42:10
Because actually, I didn't really care. I didn't want to talk about it.
42:14
I just felt the need to talk about it.
42:16
So it's interesting how I think Dr.
42:19
Gary Mendoza points out in the
42:20
episode as well, and I've heard Stephen Wollink talk about it in videos,
42:23
is when you do a course in MI or something, then you will find that you can,
42:28
not always, but there are situations where you can use it in life and you'll
42:32
see the advantages of it. It is something I found. I did Gary's course.
42:36
He did say, you know, for your homework, it's probably not ideal to practice
42:40
this with a loved one or a wife because it can lead to arguments because it's
42:43
kind of, what are you trying to get at? What are you trying to unpeel?
42:45
They really don't want to be unpeeled because they think you've got a vested
42:48
interest. It's important not to get that dynamic.
42:50
But I think what you see in work and in other areas of life with friends and
42:53
colleagues when there's not that kind of invested interest, and it's cool.
42:57
Yes, suddenly you think, oh my
42:58
God, that person's really opened you up and talked to me and enjoying it.
43:01
And they ask me if they want to see me again. you know it's like i've
43:04
got a second date wow how did that happen so it's um
43:07
it's cool i think it's really beneficial which brings me
43:09
on i just wanted to address cecily i see here it's a really good question from
43:12
cecily as always cecily who is going to be on the show as well reflecting later
43:16
on in the season so she says when learning about mi do therapists struggle to
43:20
leave their ego behind and be open to their clients responses i'm not sure ego
43:25
is the word i want to use but what did she say Hopefully,
43:28
you get my gist. Yeah, it's a good question.
43:31
Good question, yeah. I don't know.
43:35
It's a really weird one because a lot of the training that I've done with MI
43:39
initially, because I did Gary's course early 2001, I think,
43:45
And then I asked him to sort of do one with Mike and the MTE crowd and the first
43:50
therapist one that he was talking about with on that podcast that he did before
43:55
that we're talking about today.
43:56
So I actually haven't done a course or been on very many courses myself with
44:02
MSK therapists or sports therapists or anything. So I don't know.
44:07
When I've been on courses, it's mostly been with talking therapists,
44:11
psychotherapists, counselors people in leadership roles that
44:14
teach mi in management and project
44:17
management or to communities so they're learning
44:20
mi across the board but i i don't
44:23
know because it's weird because mi
44:26
and those sorts of people because you're wanting to
44:29
help people and be the whole spirit of it is be
44:32
your authentic self and be empathetic i think it attracts very
44:35
often empathetic people non-egotistical people
44:38
anyway to want to try and learn that so that
44:41
would be my take on it is that whenever i've
44:44
been on a course in person especially with that amount of people from around
44:47
the world come to see steven like it's it's
44:50
just full of really nice people that are aren't really
44:54
egotistical i don't know but
44:57
i wouldn't have if you're if you're looking to go
45:00
and go to a force in mi you're probably not
45:03
egotistical you probably like you were talking about
45:06
matt already questioning why you have failed in something you've said for those
45:12
outcomes to not be so if you're already thinking about that you're already thinking
45:16
about doing a course with mi you're probably already looking at the things that
45:20
you lack in and you already wanted to improve on that so probably not egotistical.
45:26
Good answer yeah it makes sense i think cecily
45:29
rather than ego because if you're in health care i mean there are
45:31
some people who are more educators who are kind of guru driven and
45:34
stuff but in health care like like um daniel says you're probably
45:37
already you know altruistic person and empathetic
45:40
and stuff but i think more than the ego it's more that fixing or
45:44
yeah fixing response or writing response that you
45:47
really have to you struggle with you because
45:50
you've been trained to solve that problem you know to
45:53
be the fixer and it's so difficult and literally as Gary was
45:56
saying sometimes putting your hand over your mouth when they're talking
45:59
you know or even just digging your fingernail into your
46:01
finger which is what I do sometimes when even if I've got a guest I'm not giving
46:05
tricks the trade away here but if someone's saying something and I'm like I
46:08
really want to answer this quickly and put my two cents in just stick your nail
46:12
into your finger so it starts hurting and that will remind you you know it's
46:15
all about listening and wait and blah blah blah so So there are tricks to it,
46:19
but I think that's the biggest surprise, Cecily.
46:21
And knowing you, who are a wonderful speaker, you're very eloquent,
46:24
you're very honest and up front and heart on your sleeve, a beautiful person
46:28
to be involved in therapy.
46:30
I think sometimes that will be a challenge because you've got so much to give,
46:33
you know, like a lot of us.
46:35
So, yeah, holding back until that moment comes, until, you know,
46:39
they've unpeeled enough layers.
46:41
But Cecily, yeah, you'd be great at it. It'd be really useful for you for those reasons.
46:46
Cool. Oh, well, look, 8.52. The idea is you're going to wrap things up at 8.47.
46:52
But it's such a great topic. And I really want listeners. I mean,
46:55
it's a bit different this week because I mean, the great thing about this podcast
46:58
is you are giving courses in this.
47:02
You've spent time with the co-founders and you've been developing your own techniques
47:06
and you're a great educator anyway with the DNM side of stuff.
47:09
So yeah, tell us about that. When can people...
47:12
Look out for courses and how do they kind of sign up? So it's been since Gary retired last year,
47:18
so I was helping teach on his courses before that anyway, helping teach with
47:22
Stephen recently over the last couple of years to just really sort of get confident
47:27
in teaching it, to be honest, and yeah, try and move forward.
47:30
So I'm trying to put some dates in now, to be honest.
47:33
So he's trying to do some online workshops and put some dates in.
47:37
So I've already put a few feelers out. the only thing that
47:40
i've got in concrete is the glasgow one so
47:43
it's the second and third of august and that's an in-person two-day course where
47:46
we'll be actually doing lots of stuff like we did on steve's course and stuff
47:50
like that so lots of group tasks and stuff i am actually doing a short intro
47:55
to mi in bournemouth the sta south thing as well a couple of weeks isn't it yeah.
48:01
10th of may alex's fantastic yeah so
48:05
doing a little bit of that so we'll do we'll do a group fast then
48:08
to just intro to people to that and just
48:10
get people to go in groups and sort of collaborate between and
48:14
assess each other's communication and notch off a few
48:16
mi skills do some mitty coding but other than
48:19
that yeah so great just just to not gloss
48:22
over that for because because alice and gary were
48:24
both crucify me which is a good time of year to get crucified but now
48:27
that was wrong we'll edit that out but yeah great for people who
48:30
are in the south yeah two weeks time you've got sta southern conference
48:33
going on in pool yeah yeah pool
48:36
which is accessible for a lot of people in the south and it's too
48:39
cheap i have to talk to gary about that later on but it's waiting
48:42
i think it's 45 quid or something it's crazy considering they've got
48:45
like people like yourself there and who else have
48:48
they got down there alex is doing some pilates stuff down there
48:51
there's i've looked at the line up the other day so again gary's
48:54
going he's going as well there's business um injections injected
48:58
ideas there as well so it'd be great and also what we're talking about before
49:01
off air was it's a great way just to meet up and collaborate with therapists
49:05
not too far away from you and kind of discuss and reflect and all those wonderful
49:09
things and like i say dan is going to be there as well so that'd be great first
49:12
of all if you're in the south two weeks time tickets still available as far
49:14
as i saw on the last social media post if you're looking for more details on that just go to the sta.
49:20
Page or the sta member page or the open group there's all sorts of posts all
49:23
over there and then scotland as well which is great so if you're the other end
49:26
of the country nothing so much in the middle at the moment we'll work on that
49:29
but if you're at the other end of the country,
49:31
scotland then that'd be great that's a face-to-face one which would be a lovely opportunity
49:34
to meet up with people as well so good for stevie bar and
49:37
and wonderful people like that and leslie up that those end of
49:40
the woods fantastic and if people are interested in this
49:43
so let's just bring up the websites people can see that as a visual you've
49:46
got a beautiful colored website mate very nice thank you
49:49
very much you know so is it new yeah yeah i mean in september so work in progress
49:56
still but yeah doing the job is lovely so yeah go along to the mvmnt which really
50:02
costs me to say oh it obviously it's movement shortened down my life now is trying to.
50:09
I've got to stick with it yeah but it's
50:12
fine it's movement abbreviated to mvmnt so
50:15
the movement therapist but that's fine because it means you've got those characters
50:18
to fit into i think it's the same thing isn't it on instagram as
50:21
well yeah yeah go along to the website and there's great information
50:24
there is a beautiful website even for people looking to how to develop their
50:27
website make it look modern and go along there i'd love a good website i might
50:30
talk to you later on see um yeah who you got to do that but yeah and all the
50:34
information about there is on there and people can contact you and and be updated
50:38
about when other things come around so great opportunity people and to learn
50:42
from somebody who, like I say,
50:43
has been with the co-founders and is a great educator anyway.
50:46
So that's very exciting.
50:48
Oh, Tris Attenborough has decided to come through the door at the last minute.
50:51
Talking of great educators, I'll be there hanging out. Let's hope not,
50:56
Tris, that you don't have the same problem you had at Therapy Expo with those
50:58
trousers with the zipper broken, but we won't go down that road.
51:01
But Tris, I'm glad, this is a good segue, by the way, because Tristan Attenborough,
51:05
full name, actually Sir Tristan Attenborough is going to be with us next week,
51:08
because did you know he's with us next week, Daniel?
51:11
No, I don't know. There you go.
51:14
That's me. Yeah, it's news to you. Next week in our reflection series,
51:18
I'm really looking forward to this, we're going to have, this is Tuesday the 8th.
51:22
No, sorry, Tuesday 8pm on April 29th, my guest clinicians are going to be Stevie
51:26
Bar and Tris Attenborough, who are both going to be reflecting on episode 74.
51:31
So we're still going back some, which was an episode with Anna Maria Matsieri
51:35
and Matt Skarsberg, which was called Massage 2021, Year of Change?
51:40
Isn't that great? Reflecting on that, was 2021 a year of change for massage?
51:45
There was a lot of movement going on and there was the Massage Collective with
51:48
Matt Skarsberg and I'm at Cieri and Becky involved in there.
51:52
How much of that made a difference? Are we at a different stage today?
51:55
So what better than Triss Attenborough to talk about that and Stevie Barr as
52:00
well? So that's going to be next week.
52:01
I wasn't going to say that before thanking you, but as Triss came through the
52:04
door, I thought we better look after that ego.
52:06
Yeah, when the bus comes on, you've got to thank him. When the bus comes on, you've got to thank him.
52:11
But anyway, that's next week. But so do join us for that if you're around.
52:14
If you listen to the podcast, then I mean, it'd be great.
52:16
If you're a massage therapist in particular, but not only that,
52:19
if you just, If any time in your life you put hands on people and get paid for
52:22
it, then, yeah, it'd be worth listening to that.
52:25
How far have we come since 2021 with regards to how we explain the mechanisms
52:30
and all that sort of stuff?
52:31
Are we better if we know how something works? Are we actually making it better?
52:34
But I jumped the gun there because first of all, I wanted to say thank you very
52:38
much to Daniel Williams for joining us.
52:40
You've managed the first of the reflection episodes to go way over the half
52:46
hour I allotted, but it's such a great topic.
52:48
I appreciate your insight and skills i mentioned
52:51
the website if people want to follow you instagram you're active
52:54
as well is that worth following you there yeah i'm inconsistent
52:57
but yeah whenever i
53:00
can be bothered to post i'll post i'll do it for a bit
53:03
i'll get hyper focused and i'll leave it for a
53:06
couple of weeks again again your girlfriend's so lucky and she you really are
53:09
it's such a catch yeah yeah you're testing number three on blind date yeah definitely
53:14
but yeah daniel.williams.mvmnt on instagram i follow him i think it's worth
53:20
following it i think it's good being consistent but it's good and also like
53:23
i say yeah the south coast uh,
53:26
conference, which is going on in Paul, that'd be a good place to catch you as
53:28
well. Right. And have I missed people in the audience who joined us live?
53:34
Cecily. Yes, fixing is the better word. Thanks, gents, for your perspectives.
53:38
Thank you, Cecily, for asking.
53:42
Fine. Yeah. Thank you, people who joined us live. Really appreciate it.
53:45
And thank you for listening to the podcast. If you have listened to the podcast
53:48
and you've enjoyed it, you found any bit of it useful, then do please leave
53:51
a review or ratings. Very quick.
53:53
Just chuck your five stars in there, and maybe say great so thank you very much if
53:56
you're in a hurry which you probably are um but do put something
53:59
because it just helps this information appear higher in google podcast
54:02
no one makes any money out of that it's purely about getting the
54:05
information out there um on a wider scale to kind
54:08
of fight the mainstream rubbish which is out there
54:11
hey daniel absolutely it's what we're here
54:13
for we've got a counterbalance counterbalance so
54:17
do please do that you can play your part in helping healthcare across
54:20
the board just by leaving a decent rating and reviews for the podcast so i appreciate
54:24
that right on that note thanks again daniel really appreciate your time no worries
54:29
thank you very much but we will be around next tuesday again at eight o'clock
54:33
on the sports therapy social youtube channel if you want to join us until that
54:36
take care of each other and listen to each other a little bit more bye-bye.
54:40
Music.