Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Faith Expansion vs Faith Crisis: Finding Truth in Mormonism and Beyond — Cami Sanders

Transcript

Faith Expansion vs Faith Crisis: Finding Truth in Mormonism and Beyond — Cami Sanders · MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt

• Brynne Erickson (01:04) Cammie Sanders, welcome back to Middle Ground. How are you? Cami (01:08) doing great. Thanks for having me again, Brynn. Brynne Erickson (01:11) Yeah, I'm so excited. Last time we talked about the divine feminine and you shared your insight to that, but it just wasn't enough for me. And then I wanted to get to know you more. So Cami and I are just going to be having a really candid open conversation tonight about our journeys of faith, the highs, the lows, the struggles, the yeah, all the things. And we're going to talk about what truth is to each of us and sources that we have utilized and been guided to that have helped us in our journeys and searches for truth and light and all things good and beautiful because that's truly what we all want. Don't you think? Cami (01:53) Absolutely. This is my favorite kind of conversation just to get into the deep of what people really believe and what matter to them the most. So this is great. Brynne Erickson (02:02) Yeah, and I think this is gonna be so validating to people who feel like they're the only ones struggling or they're struggling silently. Like I heard the term yesterday that they were basically saying that they spiritually came out of the closet. Like they had been so alone and figuring out their spirituality on their own and that resonated with me so much. And I was like, it is pretty lonely when you're in the trenches of doubt. Cami (02:17) Mm. Brynne Erickson (02:29) and big questions and you're afraid to talk about it because you don't want to ruin relationships. You don't want to be called into authorities offices and reprimanded or anything and it can be kind of lonely. So thank you for having this conversation with me. I think it's going to be really helpful for a lot of people. Cami (02:50) good, yeah. And it's hard for me to say what I've, you know, I guess what I've kind of gone through my whole life is a struggle. Maybe it's a wrestle. I guess it could be. But when people use the term like faith crisis, that never really stuck with me. But someone used the term faith expansion and that like, that describes exactly what I feel like my pursuit in life is, is to expand everything that I know and faith and yeah. Brynne Erickson (03:05) Mm-hmm. you And that's more what I'm hoping we or humanity can see is that is expansion. Like it doesn't have to feel like a crisis. Like if we just took it as, this is just a normal part of the growth process when you're a person of faith or in religion or in some sort of practice, like, this is just what you do when you're in pursuit of a life led by faith rather than. I felt it was a crisis in the beginning. And now it's not. Now I would definitely say, ⁓ this is just a beautiful part of my journey. I'm just expanding and growing all the time. And it would be awesome if we could normalize the process, I think, rather than, like, I'm excited to hear about your experience because it sounds like you've never really felt the hard and heavy of it. Or is that not true? OK. Cami (04:16) No, I definitely have. Yeah, and I do want to discount people's experiences, but I think one of the best ways I've heard it described is that a seed, in order to grow, it has to come completely undone. And if you, you the shell cracks, the insides come out and everything changes. And if you don't understand what's happening, it would just look like complete destruction. But it just like you said, it's a normal part of growth. That's necessary, not comfortable, and not easy and messy, but necessary. Brynne Erickson (04:18) Okay. And I love that. for some reason, I don't know why we thought it wasn't supposed to be messy or uncomfortable. Like, I don't know where that thought process came from, but it did at some point. And that's why when it wasn't comfortable and it was, and I even this last Sunday, I was at church and I just got released from being young women's president and I was in Relief Society again. And I got home and I was like, I miss the days when I could just go to church and just be like, yes, I agree with all of this. And these are all just beautiful thoughts that I'm going to take to heart instead of now it's like, hmm, I don't know if I agree with that exactly. And my cute husband was like, you mean you don't like going to church and expanding and growing and having your thoughts challenged now? And I was like, yeah, go figure, huh? And it was just different, but I'm really grateful to have my husband who has been an integral part of this process with me. And it's been really helpful. Cami (05:43) Okay. That is good. Brynne Erickson (05:46) But anyway, Kemi, tell me about your story then. Were you raised in religion? Did you find religion? What's your background? Let's start from the beginning-ish. Cami (05:47) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm wondering if you or others can relate. I was born into the LDS Church, just completely immersed into the gospel and into the culture of it. Both my parents were at BYU when I was born. Pioneer ancestors on all sides, oldest of six kids, family home evening every week, scripture study almost every day. My parents were so dedicated to it and they really did all that. It was a great way to live and grow up and I'm so, so grateful for that and would never... Brynne Erickson (06:18) Yeah. Cami (06:26) never disparage that childhood and everything that I learned. And so I was taught to learn, really, is that that's kind of what my house was like, was learning to learn, and I'm really grateful for that. So I had that as a child, and then when I was around seven, I had an amazing primary teacher, and she framed baptism as a choice. was kind of an anxious little kid who wanted to make sure I was doing the right things all the time. So I had to know if I was making the right choice. What that meant is I had to know if the Book of Mormon was true or not. So I decided I was going to read it before I turned eight. Now, I did love to read as a kid, but I don't know. I read the Book of Mormon. I'm not sure how much I understood, but I was obsessed with it. You know, like reading under the blankets with a flashlight type. Brynne Erickson (06:56) Mm. As a seven year old Cami (07:22) Yeah, but I did remember just loving it. And I don't know what a seven-year-old can get from it, but things just flowed for me. I don't know. When I got to the end with Moroni's Promise, and I don't know the exact words, but it's essentially if you, now that you've read these things, ⁓ if you ask with pure intent and faith in Christ, and you ask Heavenly Father, Brynne Erickson (07:45) Mm-hmm. Cami (07:48) If it's true, the Holy Ghost will reveal the truth of it to you. And so with that really simple, uncomplicated faith of a child, I did pray. And the feeling that I had was so strong and distinct, just warmth and love and connection and just undeniable. And as much as I've tried to explain it away, I haven't been able to. I'm sure there's people who could, and I am open to any possibility, but it... It felt and feels so real to me still that feeling that I had. I was just a kid though, you know, so you're, you don't know. But ⁓ I've had that feeling more times that we'll kind of maybe get into as I get a little bit older. ⁓ But I was fascinated by religion. ⁓ There was a girl that sat next to me that went to a Baptist church and I was always asking her questions. Another boy in my class in like third grade had a cross and so I asked him about it and what it was. Brynne Erickson (08:25) Yeah. ⁓ Cami (08:48) We had Afghan refugees in my elementary school. And so the boy would leave a couple of times a day to pray. And so I'd ask him, like, what are you doing? you know, just fascination with all of it. And so just relied on my little elementary school library to learn about all these different religions. They were just, you know, kids books, simple as much as I could handle. But I was so in awe of other people and what they believed. Brynne Erickson (08:57) Hmm. Cami (09:14) and wanted to understand it. And I just always wanted to understand how does the world work? How do people work? Why do we do what we do? And through religion is a good way to understand, guess. Brynne Erickson (09:25) Definitely. Where were you raised then? Cami (09:28) Kern's like south Salt Lake, Utah. So it's, yeah, out west there. And then when I was in high school, my family moved to Hooper, if anyone knows where that is. It's Northern Utah in Weber County. But, and so I, yeah, I was definitely raised in LDS culture, but in a more diverse area, because it was a little bit more, you know, young families, homes, lots of immigrants. So Brynne Erickson (09:31) So thank you. Okay. Yes. Mm-hmm. yeah. Cami (09:57) As diverse as Utah gets, I feel like I got a good taste of it. Brynne Erickson (10:01) Well, for sure. And that's why I was asking because my elementary experience was not like even all the way through high school. Like I would say majority of people were definitely white, Latter-day Saints. And ⁓ back in my day, like almost everybody went to church. Like it was a big deal if you were a member, but you didn't go to church, at least up here yeah, it was. ⁓ It's just interesting that we both lived in Utah, but we had pretty different experiences. And I did not like to read. I was not a good reader, and it was hard for me. And yeah, I just never really questioned. I was always really obedient, and I was OK with that. would, obviously, I wasn't like 100%, and I would still have a mind of my own. But I think that was a big part of it too, is I just never questioned, but I never felt a need to. and I was never really like encouraged to do so. And so, it just is so interesting how it all comes together. But I love that you were open-minded and encouraged to be so even from a young age. Were your parents, did they like encourage searching other ways of living or? Cami (11:16) They didn't, but they, I'm not sure I always made them comfortable. And also I was just searching on my own. I'd go to the library on my own, spend a lot of time there, find books. And so that kind of, sometimes it didn't lead me to where my parents might have loved. Meaning, you know, I would spend a lot of time at the, the county library and the section I loved was you religion, the 200s and the Dewey Decimal and right next to that is philosophy and so I started kind of just scanning those shelves too and you know by the time I was in junior high and high school I was finding lots of books on atheism and trying to see like understand that and I could find those little bits of pieces of yeah this does make sense that we should you know we should value science and we should value our experience here and making the world better here, not just in the afterlife. Like they definitely, atheists have, you know, those bits of truth that I think we can pull in and not just dismiss immediately. ⁓ But that didn't really resonate with me, that just thinking that there isn't more to this life and there's not something bigger and that we're all connected. I don't know, that didn't really appeal. Brynne Erickson (12:42) So did you ever, I guess, doubt that the LDS church was not what it claims to be? Cami (12:51) No, the entire time I was 100 % active. Yeah, probably similar to you where, yeah, I had, you know, young, young woman's callings and seminary council and all those things. So I was still hyperactive in church and didn't really question the church, just was like, what else is there too? I want this and this. So it was more of that sort of and. In fact, a metaphor that really, ⁓ I didn't know it at the time, but it really explains how I feel about things. ⁓ S. Michael Wilcox, he has written a bunch of books about scripture, and he wrote one called 10 People I'd Like to Meet in Heaven. It's just like little biographical sketches of people he felt were inspired and brought truth and people like St. Patrick, Joan of Arc, the Buddha, Charles Darwin, just kind of a broad selection of people, but he has a metaphor in that book ⁓ called About the Compass. and not like a navigating compass, but the compass that you use to in geometry to draw perfect circles. It's kind of like a triangle. And he calls something, he calls one the fixed foot that you set down where you want the center of your circle to be. And then you have a searching foot that you stretch out and you expand to ⁓ draw a circle. And he wanted to put his fixed foot in where the most Truth had most matured, where there seems to be a lot of overlap in truth. And then expand to encompass or encircle or circumscribe as much truth as possible and pull that in. And so what he used as his fixed foot was the LDS doctrine. And that feels natural to me too. It's where I have the most mature roots and the deepest. And so I use that sort of as my fixed foot and then expand. ⁓ I don't know if that's, yeah, if that metaphor makes any sense. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (14:51) Yeah, I actually just heard that recently and I'm like racking my brain as to where I heard that exact story about Michael Wilcox. And I don't remember who it was. It might've been my mom, but yeah, that's a good one. I do like that one a lot. And it's a newer concept for me that, well, is it newer? That there's truth in lots of places. I guess I heard that, but I always kind of, Cami (15:02) Really? Brynne Erickson (15:21) What's that phrase that we use that we have the wholeness of the truth, the fullness of the truth in the LDS church. So I guess for me, having that mentality of, ⁓ well, if we have it all, then why would I need to learn about other religions and the ways that other people believe? Like that doesn't make any sense to me. It does now. I'm now doing religious studies and I crave learning about other people. And the ways that I think what's made the difference is realizing that God has communed with his children through these ways. Like these weren't just ideas that people had, but I now believe that God, the same God of the LES Church also inspired all of these other religions and way of beings. Do have any thoughts about that? Cami (16:15) Yes, I mean, it makes so much sense. Why would God only speak to the tiniest percentage of his children through just a small portion of time? Instead, I think he's been speaking to people throughout the world and throughout history and, yeah, inspiring that. And I know that there is that kind of one true living church, of, you know, fullness of the gospel. And Brynne Erickson (16:38) Mm-hmm. Cami (16:41) I mean, but that wasn't the founding, that wasn't the restoration, I guess, because Joseph Smith, I mean, he said that one of the fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth ⁓ from, I know, he probably said it more eloquently, from wherever it may come to get all the good in the world. And so, but I do see that there would be some resistance to adding onto it when it makes us uncomfortable. Brynne Erickson (16:59) Mm-hmm. Cami (17:09) or when it feels different than what we're used to. Brynne Erickson (17:11) Yeah, and I don't know, I just have loved so much more, including all the beautiful ways that God has inspired ⁓ and given to us to commune with him. And it just, it makes me so happy and helps me feel more connected to my brothers and sisters throughout the whole world. And that was what was really helpful to me. I actually did the math once of like, what is the percentage? of the world population that is actually LDS. And it was like 0.001 or like 0.02. I can't remember, but it was not even, it was a percentage of a decimal. And that was very helpful in the perspective of like, okay, if God loves everybody, it doesn't make any sense that just my little group of people would have it all right. And That was kind of like the catalyst of just craving and wanting to learn so much more about other people. How has ⁓ your desire for learning and knowledge served you? Cami (18:18) I think, yeah, it's made life more rich, just trying to understand it more. And because I was reading so much philosophy in ⁓ high school, and it was kind of the those that you'd heard of, you know, the Aristotles, the Plato's, that sort of thing. And because I'd read so much, I in college, I changed majors like five times, but I kept taking philosophy classes for fun. And so that ended up being my minor. Brynne Erickson (18:43) Okay. Cami (18:46) But it's so interesting in philosophy how ⁓ many philosophers were trying to prove the existence of God through reason and logic. In fact, Descartes, a famous philosopher, that's what his, I think, therefore I am, came from was his meditations in trying to prove the existence of God. And he famously made a logical fallacy called a Cartesian circle. Essentially, of what he came to, what came ⁓ from that is that you can't prove the existence of God. And people have tried and you just cannot logically prove it. And I think that's by design because anything that can be proved, proven empirically or known empirically, you don't need faith to believe in that. yeah, you can just see it. and know that it's true. So there is something to that. Brynne Erickson (19:45) I think it's a good segue into ⁓ talking about truth. So like what is truth to you, Cammie? Cami (19:57) That is another one of the big questions of philosophy that is always in debate, because there is empirical scientific truth that can be proven. There's the reality of a situation that's truth, and then there's moral truth or religious truth that there I am not good at defining truth, but all I can kind of use is, I think, more of the search for it and what it does for us and to us. Brynne Erickson (19:58) Hahaha. Yeah. Cami (20:25) I think that is where the value of it comes from. ⁓ And for me, it's sort of, I imagine like a Venn diagram of all of these different moral philosophies and religion. And the spot that always seems to be overlapped by almost all of them is the golden rule. Almost every ethic, moral philosophy ethicist, every religion. a version of the Golden Rule. And it's just love other people sort of at the center of that. And that is what Jesus taught over and over. And that sort of that point where I put my fixed foot is because it just keeps being reinforced. Brynne Erickson (21:14) That's so perfect because I get so stuck on that all the time. Like we could all be witnessing the exact same situation or all be listening to the exact same talk and then we all walk away with different perspectives and different insights and what rang true to me was totally different than what rang true to you. And I've just been really struggling like what is truth? And then you go to church. And then people are like, this is absolute truth. Like the Bible says this, we believe this. And I'm just like, but I don't. Yes, I get what you're saying. And I love what you just said about God because I have concluded that. like, there is no way to prove that God truly exists. And if we could, then there would be no purpose for faith. And one of the most intense Cami (22:05) Yes. Brynne Erickson (22:08) conversations I've had with my husband is when I was really frustrated about truth because it just didn't make sense to me anymore and he said something super sweet and profound and he said, you know, I believe that there is absolute truth, but maybe we're not meant to know it here. I was like, that's a thought and that's kind of helped me like it's just made a little more flexible and not like so urgent to make sure I get it right because there's so much that hangs on your well-being after this life. Cami (22:21) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (22:37) if you don't believe the truth or do the things that truth asks you to do. And that can be really stressful for people. Cami (22:48) Yeah, yes it can. And that's where I think when we get so almost arrogant in our certainty about like this is absolutely the way, this is the way and almost the only way, I do worry. And I actually think when I read a lot of scripture now, I do see it differently. Paul's letter to the Corinthians where he is talking about charity. Brynne Erickson (22:59) Mm-hmm. Cami (23:13) I realized like a lot of the times I didn't read scriptures in context and I read like the scripture mastery or the one that you flipped to during class. But when I reread his letter on how charity never faileth, and if you read more of it, it says, charity never faileth, but prophecies, they shall fail. Tongues, they shall cease, and knowledge shall vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. For now we see through a glass darkly. Brynne Erickson (23:20) Mm-hmm. Cami (23:43) but then face to face. And so, and then it ends that chapter with, now abideth faith, hope and charity, but the greatest of these is charity. So prophecies, they'll fail, knowledge will fail, but charity never faileth. And that kind of reinforces that love your neighbor, love God, golden rule treat people how you want to be treated. Charity doesn't fail. And that kind of charity, word there you've probably are familiar with. Brynne Erickson (23:57) you Cami (24:12) that it's agape in Greek. know, we have other languages have so many words for love. And we use love for everything from like, I love pizza and I love my dog, to I love my husband. Yeah, that one form, but that agape is that God like love, that's not conditional. And it's how we can say that we do love our enemy. You know, we might not like them, we might not want to have them in our life a lot. Brynne Erickson (24:25) one form. Mm-hmm. Cami (24:41) But that's how we can say we love our enemy, it's that God-like love that is unearned. And that's charity is translated in the Greek there in that section. Brynne Erickson (24:52) Yeah, I was actually thinking about love last night too, because I was like, love, I sing about my body. I was like, I love my body, but there are things that I don't love about my body, but I love my body. I was like trying to like separate the two. And I was like, it's kind of almost like this appreciative love. If that makes sense. So was, and I, it's almost like I need to do this dive into love and like the degrees or variations of love. like what other religions or languages have, or maybe, I don't know, I just need to do an etymological study of the word love because I think there are so many different types and situations where it is different. Cami (25:39) think so too. And I ⁓ would recommend C.S. Lewis's book, The Four Loves, and that's where he kind of talks about those different types of love and God-like love and friendship and those types of things. So that might be a good place to start, but yes, other languages have more words that we can use. Brynne Erickson (25:53) Yes. When you have studied scripture, what, any like perspective or lenses that you have read it from that have served you or helped you in better ways than others? Cami (26:11) Yeah, it's just not being so certain of ⁓ what it means before I start reading it. Because, you know, a lot of the time we were, here's the manual or here's the seminary lesson and here's what it says. Okay, so now go read these scriptures and it'll reinforce exactly what it says in this manual. And it often doesn't if you look at it broader, or there's more to it. ⁓ And in fact, ⁓ a practice that I find really helpful is Lactio Divina. And you've probably come across this as you've been learning too. But it is a practice of Benedictine monks to read scripture, to open their minds to inspiration. And it's a four step process. They kind of turn it into a ritual. And it really helps me to kind of look a little deeper. So what I'll do is I'll take a passage of scripture and the first step is lectio, which is just to read. And that's just the narrative. It's kind of like the little kid books of scripture with the pictures, just what happened. And so that's lectio. And I have to put everything in metaphor. And so I've sort of related it to feasting on the words of Christ. So for me, that step is taking a bite. And then the next bite, I guess, the next step is meditatio. And this is where you start making connections. You start thinking about the metaphor and look in the footnotes and think of other stories or history or things in your life that this passage of scripture makes you think of. And for me, that's when you chew on it. And that can take a while. I don't read a huge volume of scripture. I will read a little bit deeper. So I take a bite and I chew on it. And then a ratio. And this is where you pray. And this is my conversation. Brynne Erickson (28:05) you Cami (28:07) And this is when I think, why is this here? Or what do I need to learn from it? And it's also the time when I chew on it. No, this isn't good. And I'm going to spit this out. And this is when I really wrestle with God. And there are things. And sometimes I'll take a nibble later in my life, and I understand a little more. I'm ⁓ OK, I can see. Just kind of like when you're a kid and you don't love certain foods, but then as an adult, you know. Brynne Erickson (28:18) Hmm. Cami (28:35) I like hot sauce or I like vinegar. didn't think I did. Sometimes you have to mature a little bit, but sometimes what is in the scripture is toxic. And we know better now. We don't need to. You know that we've had more light knowledge. We can leave that behind and not eat that. So that's kind of the ratio. And that is where I spend a lot of time. And then the last step is contemplatio. And that's where you it's both Brynne Erickson (28:45) Mmm. Cami (29:03) passive and active. I can't really explain it, but it's when you let it change you. It's your call to action. What are you going to take? You're going to sit with it. What are you going to take away from this, and how is it going to change you? And this is when you digest it. You let it nourish you and become part of you. And that has been a lens that I've looked at at scripture and seen new things just because I'm intentionally looking for them. Brynne Erickson (29:28) So many things to say. ⁓ I didn't even realize I had been utilizing that process, totally have, especially when I was in the thick of like, trying to make sense of, do I even believe in God? Do I want to believe in God? But I was clinging to what I, the resources that I had, which was scripture. And I was just reading it, cause that's what I knew to do. But I was totally doing that process. I would read something and then I would read it again and I would stew over it. And then I would just talk out loud, which is kind of how I pray these days, ⁓ if it feels right. And then I would just kind of come to a quiet conclusion and I would think about it throughout the week. And then it would almost be like, okay, because of this, I'm now going to live this way, or I'm going to choose to believe this. So I have a firm testimony of that process. I just didn't know it. So that's really beautiful. I love that so much. And I love how you talked about ⁓ just the typical traditional way that, especially the LDS faith, I'm not sure how other churches do it, but how you get the manual. But what's interesting about the manual is it's from the perspective of the people who wrote it. And I think we've kind of done a disservice in already putting that perspective on people. this is the lens you are not supposed to read it from that lens, but it just naturally happens, right? And so I realized a few years ago that that wasn't working for me. Like I couldn't, I wasn't willing to take that on anymore. So I stopped using the manual altogether and just read scripture and was like, what is going to speak to Brynn in this reading today? And that changed everything. if the Bible was, inspired for any reason, I believe it was for that. To speak for, to be a conduit for the other side, the divine God, your ancestors, whoever it is that's working for your good to be able to speak to you through those pages or at least inspire you in some way to then communicate with the other side and or the higher power. And I think it's pretty cool. I don't, it's, but I, I've also learned that I have spiritual moments in other books too, not just scripture. Again, I think we have limited the accessibility of God to just the Bible, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, ⁓ when actually there are so many ways to find our Heavenly Father. Cami (32:14) Yes, absolutely. That is absolutely what I believe. And I love that you've been getting that process and that sort of stuff that sort of reinforces like there is something there. Like if other people can access it in different ways and feel the same way, there might be something to it. So yeah, and I love that connection to history of people have been reading scripture this way for hundreds of years, know, that sort of thing. But yeah, and it is Brynne Erickson (32:25) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cami (32:43) That has been one of my trickiest things is sources of truth. Because again, just spending time in the library as a high school kid, I don't know if it was the high school library or the county library, but I picked up a biography of Joseph Smith and was reading it. And it started saying things that I'm like, this is crazy. Joseph Smith was a treasure hunter who kind of defrauded people. and he was a polygamist. I've never heard that. Nope. And he had teenage wives. No, no, that can't be right. So I asked my seminary teacher about it and he said, yeah, this is, and this is the mid nineties. I asked my seminary teacher and he said, yeah, this is anti-Mormon lies. You know, that is, that's not true at all. And I'm going to give him and probably all of my other teachers grace to think more. Brynne Erickson (33:40) Absolutely. Cami (33:41) caught any of this either. And so, but 10 years later, in Deseret book, I bought rough stone rolling that said all the same thing, a little bit less with a negative spin, but all the same things. And it was fact and it was true. It wasn't lies. And so I had to really reconcile how much I felt betrayed by both my, my seminary teacher and other teachers and the church in general, because even though I don't think a lot of my direct teachers Brynne Erickson (33:48) Mmm. Cami (34:10) knew there were prophets and presidents of the church who were church historians and they definitely knew and they weren't telling us. And I did feel betrayed because I do feel like at the crux of what would be the plan of salvation or the difference between Christ and Lucifer in what they were presenting was agency. And if you are lying to someone you're taking away their agency. They're not making a fully informed choice. And so by Brynne Erickson (34:29) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Cami (34:41) leaving out and omitting so much of our truth of our past, that sort of treats us like little kids who can't handle it. But we aren't. We're adults, and we can see truth for what it is, and we can leave some things behind and say that was wrong, while still saying there's some good. We can look at it. We don't have to throw every... It's not such a dichotomy of all true or all false, but by setting it up that way, it really is simplistic. Brynne Erickson (35:05) Yeah. I think what was a disservice is, again, I don't know how we came up with these narratives of like a prophet is infallible, ⁓ leadership is infallible, the prophet is 100 % the mouthpiece of God and everything that comes out of their mouth is from him. And I think that really, we took that really to heart. And so when... things came out that didn't feel or seem true or right or ethical. It was very, I can't think of the word, but it was hard to swallow, right? So how did you handle that when you read all that? What was your, what did you do? Cami (35:51) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I did deep dives into church history and we have so much available to us now about the Joseph Smith papers. And there's so much evidence to confirm a lot of that. And so, you know, it's, it'd be easier to explain it away, but instead I kind of have to wrestle with it all the time. And the same way that I, there is any there's sort of this saying of it doesn't have to be true to teach truth. And I still believe the Book of Mormon is true in the way that it teaches truth. I'm not 100 % of how it was translated. It was, you know, through a hat in a, or a seer stone in a hat. It wasn't the way I was taught. I don't know if that changes the outcome, but what I've decided is I want to believe in Second Nephi 2. It is beautiful theology and philosophy about the opposition of all things. It's incredible and it answers so many questions. I want to believe in King Benjamin's speech because it just teaches us how to treat each other and what leadership looks like. And I want to believe that a Zion is possible like in fourth Nephi. I think it's so beautiful. And I had that feeling reading the Book of Mormon. And when I was in college and hearing like It's unreasonable, know, it's irrational, unreasonable, religion is irrational. And I was still reading scripture and I was reading at the end of Heleman when Samuel the Lamanite has come and it was getting to be the time when Jesus was supposed to have arrived. And so the non-believers were threatening the lives of the believers and the term they use is it is not reasonable that such as Christ should come. And that, of course, that term stood out to me of reasonable. Yeah, it's not reasonable. But in this record, he did a few pages later, he did. And it's not reasonable. Religion isn't reasonable. But it is part of it that it speaks to us. And so I kind of have to take the good and leave the bad in my, yeah. Brynne Erickson (38:09) It's not. Can it really be that easy, Cammie? Cami (38:20) I don't know. I will say that, but yeah, it's hard. Brynne Erickson (38:25) and you're doing it and I'm doing it. Like, yes, I am aware of polygamy. I'm aware of the things that I don't agree with and probably were errors. And yet here I am, I'm still doing the thing. I still love going to church. I love contributing. I love the beauty of goodness that I believe we're trying to contribute to the world. And that's where I am today. And I'm open to being somewhere different in the future, but for now, this is where I am and what is serving me. And I'm relying on my connection with heaven to guide me. And that's it. I'm not relying on leadership. I, I listen to conference totally differently now. And it's more like, that works for me or that doesn't. And I'm okay with that. It works for me. And I love how you kept using the word want. I want to believe this and I want to believe that. And to me, that's agency. Like if agency truly was the crux of all of this, this whole experience, then we should be utilizing that power like to its fullest rather than minimizing people's ability to use it. Cami (39:41) Yes, because agency is the only way we can learn. I mean, if you think about it, I guess the plan could have been Lucifer saying, all right, get on this train. I'm going to drive us through a quick loop through Earth life and we'll be right back where we started. But we would be spiritual children. And we actually use those metaphors in conference. And it really bothers me actually when there have been metaphors about get on the train or stay on the boat. Brynne Erickson (40:05) You path. Cami (40:10) or even covenant path making it seem like it's just a simple straightforward thing, just do these things. And that's just, that doesn't take any thinking. And Brynn, it sounds like you leave church thinking and while you're at church, you're thinking, you're not just passively, you know, on a train. You could sleep through your whole life that way and you wouldn't be any different than when you started. But we're not actually, another one we always say is we're going to go back to our heavenly father. No, we're not going backward. We're going forward. Brynne Erickson (40:18) now. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Cami (40:38) And so just that's kind of those words that we use, tell us how to think about it. We're not going back to being spiritual children, spirit children. We are going forward to be like God, which means we have to learn. We have to have the agency in order to learn and we have to be told the truth in order to learn the truth. So it's not easy. Brynne Erickson (40:52) Mm-hmm. I think so. And I think religion is weird. I'll just say it. I think it's great. It's serving me and it serves a lot of people, but it is just weird. It's just like these constructs built on faith. It's like, hey, I had this inspiration. What do you think about it? You want to join me on my thoughts? And it's interesting, but I am fascinated that all throughout time, People have been inspired in similar ways and invited people to join them in the cause of it. And so many people rally to that cause. For whatever reason, it calls to us. And I find that fascinating. Cami (41:43) It does. Yeah, like there is something to it. And that's why it's so easy to exploit too. And we see that when religions start to have power and they do exploit like the most human part of us, that deep belief that they're, you know, that they were part of something big and that can be used and exploited. it can also, I mean, even with good intentions, you can say like, yeah, Brynne Erickson (41:50) Yeah. I agree. Cami (42:11) know, don't don't try to learn about that, you're gonna, you know, you'll get outside evil influences, or it's safe here, you know, keep your commandments here, is there safety? That sort of thing. ⁓ But safety isn't always the, that's not really the reason we're here, learning is, like life is about learning. And yeah. Brynne Erickson (42:33) Yeah. Yeah. And we're meant to be there for people when like supporting each other as we're learning, not preventing the learning, but like just supporting and walking beside. And to me, that's what charity is. It's being there. mean, truly that's what heavenly father is, right? He's like not here taking our hand. He's there. We have to reach out and be like, okay, I need help. And that's an interesting thought I haven't thought of before. ⁓ What are some things that you've had to chew a little bit more? Cami (43:14) Yeah, I mean, I don't know how the church that believes in the Book of Mormon that explicitly says all are alike and to God, you know, black, white, bond-free, male, female, could think that there are children of God who are less than others. It's stunning to me that this church that has that so clearly in our scripture would believe that Black people shouldn't have the priesthood because of a punishment of one of their, maybe their ancestor from the beginning of time. That directly contradicts both second article of faith and our scripture and then just what we know about God as a parent. It just, how we are as parents, we are not going to think, ⁓ one of those kids deserves to be subjugated to the other. And so that is something I Brynne Erickson (43:56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cami (44:12) I've never tried to explain it away, but because it didn't affect me directly, I didn't think about it until, you know, I was an adult. And, no. Brynne Erickson (44:14) Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting how much, like, we're not exempt from our personal biases and experiences coming into play, even if you're in leadership roles in the church. So how I've made sense of that one personally is like, obviously there were some personal biases at play when those policies were also at play. ⁓ Not to say that it was right or okay. But in regards to where the world was, at least ⁓ North America was at that time, which is really sad. But I can also see where that perspective would be ingrained, even in the people of the LDS Church. Have you ever thought of that? Cami (45:10) Yes, and I do try to give people grace, but I also have higher expectations for people who say they speak for God. I mean, our original, those early prophets, mean, Joseph Smith did ordain black men. ⁓ Brigham Young grew up in one of the most abolitionist areas. He was definitely aware of the anti-slavery movement. And... ⁓ Brynne Erickson (45:26) Mm-hmm. Cami (45:39) And someone who speaks for God should be ahead of the curve in bringing that kind of truth, not behind it. And so I think he did a lot of good as a leader. And I also, I think actually that your potential for doing good is almost equivalent, almost exactly to your potential for doing harm. And because if you can have more influence, you can have more influence for good or harm. Brynne Erickson (45:51) Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Cami (46:07) Yeah, Brigham Young definitely had huge influence for good, did a lot, and had a harmful legacy that lasted too long. Brynne Erickson (46:15) What have you, I'm still trying to figure out this, like what is a profit really? Like have you thought about that one at all? Like what is their role? How do they really do their job? Yeah, any thoughts about that? Cami (46:29) Because there, yeah, like you said, there are people who have been trying to search for this truth from all over. And so a prophet is someone who seems to be more tuned into it. And I felt that about a lot of different philosophers and a lot of different religious leaders. So I don't know. I think president of the church is a different job than prophet. to be honest. think president of the church is more of an administrative role, you know, managing an organization. A prophet is not necessarily concerned about only propping up the institution. And a prophet is just trying to teach truth and doesn't have ego because you can't, you can't have ego and be like, I already know the answer. Well, I'm going to ask God anyway, I guess like that. Brynne Erickson (47:19) Mm-hmm. Cami (47:22) That can't be what a prophet is. And one of the most impressive, humble things I've heard was Spencer Kimball, President Kimball, he was after they ⁓ announced that they were going to remove that barrier from Black people ⁓ attending the temple and receiving the priesthood, he said that it took, it was a lot of his personal change that had to happen, that he spent a lot of time in the temple having to change his own mind. And And that he admitted that in a Deseret News interview, and it's actually really beautiful for someone with that much influence and power to be able to say, I was personally wrong and I couldn't see past that. And I think that was true of a lot of them. And that I can totally appreciate that when we know better, we do better. And that is all it is. It's repentance. That's all it is. No one want no one expects anyone to be perfect, not even prophets of God. And they never were. Brynne Erickson (48:05) Yes. Mm-hmm. Cami (48:22) and all throughout history. But it's just being able to say I didn't know and now I do. Brynne Erickson (48:29) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's beautiful. ⁓ Is there any resources that you have found to be helpful as you have been searching for truth? Cami (48:45) I just, yeah, read everything I can and then take the little bits and I literally save them in documents just so can find them later and make those connections. But I mean, there are lots of good accessible philosophy books. I wouldn't recommend if you are going to get into reading philosophy to start with the source text, like the actual text, but books about philosophy are really helpful. So that's... Brynne Erickson (49:10) Mm-hmm. Cami (49:16) Those have always been really good for me. And it's really just kind of paying attention that that's hard to do. And also where I've got the most knowledge from is just listening. don't know. Listening to other people's stories and trying just, I think the most Christ-like quality is empathy. And what I mean is that atonement Brynne Erickson (49:30) listening to what? Cami (49:45) That's what it was. It was feeling how everyone feels and that knowledge, that perfect knowledge of how it is to be all of us. And I don't understand the miracle of it, but that is why Jesus is able to sucker his children. And so as much as you can learn about other people, and that's in novels, it's in even movies, it's in traveling, it's just in interacting with other people, and especially other people who are different than you because you learn more. And so I had just whatever you can do to develop empathy. And I'm not, that doesn't mean I'm good at it. It means I'm always trying to work and understand people, but I still hurt people's feelings and I still do the wrong thing and I'm selfish and yeah, but I try. Brynne Erickson (50:25) Mm-hmm. Right, and then we can go back and say sorry, right? Yes. Me too. Cami (50:38) Yeah, I do have to do that a lot. Brynne Erickson (50:45) Do you mind telling us about the impactful dream that you had that you shared with me? Cami (50:53) Yeah, so at times when I am especially always praying, ⁓ one of those times was about six years ago, I guess. And it was related to ⁓ the topic we had last time, the divine feminine, of where is the place for women, me, my daughters, and just women in general. And so was a topic that I was really praying and studying and wrestling with. One night I had a dream and I usually don't put a lot of stuff in dreams. I usually don't remember dreams. But this one stuck with me so distinctly and still has that I don't know. I do think there's something there. But in this dream I'm in a huge dark area, just a huge black space. And in the middle of that space is a gigantic black cube, just a huge cube. And at the start of the dream, I'm standing in front of a window in that cube, an opening in that cube. And inside of that is this glowing ball of light, just so bright. And of course, it's a dream, so nothing's explicitly labeled, but I know this window is Mormonism. And I am so happy to be looking through it and just taking in this light It's just so bright, and looking at it makes me incredibly happy. So I'm standing there for a while and I realize I want to see more of this light. So I start walking and along the cube there are tiny little pinholes, there's some openings that are a little larger and I'm looking through those and I recognize them as philosophies that I've studied and I am kind of happy to see the light from another perspective and I keep walking and I turn a corner and there's a circle that I understand to be Buddhism. I only know a little bit about Buddhism, but it's also awesome to see it from that perspective. And I walk around more looking through more little openings. I find a ladder and climb onto the top of the cube and look down through Hinduism. Another really fascinating ⁓ view on the world and truth. And as I'm looking around, I'm seeing more people and they're also looking through openings in the cube. And they seem really happy to be finding more and more openings too. And as I'm looking around and kind of exploring, I realize, I haven't found an opening larger than Mormonism yet. I'm going to go back there. And I'm really excited to get back there. So I start running back. I'm just so happy to see this opening again. But when I get there, there is a man in a suit and tie with his arms folded. And he's standing with his back to the window in front of the window. And so I sort of politely at first say, excuse me, sir, will you move over please? And he's just a blank face, doesn't acknowledge anything. And so I ask again, please move over. And I'm asking politely a couple of times with no acknowledgement. I start to get a little more upset. And he's like, why are you there? You're not even looking. And I start seeing there's more people behind me too. And so I'm starting to yell at him like, why are you there? We all want to see and you're in the way. Why are you there? And I start to get more upset and I wake up and I'm staring at the ceiling and I hear just distinctly this woman's voice really clearly say, He needs to move. You need to move him. And I'm under no illusions that I will move patriarchy from the LDS church. And it's not necessarily one man or one group of men, I think, that was there. But I think that a system that puts a barrier between us and truth and light is maybe not the way it should be. In fact, that man should be turning the other way and helping to chip at the edges of that window and expanding. And instead, he's kind of closing it off in a way and policing it even a little bit. And so I've sort of I've thought about that for six years now. But after that dream, I woke up and I drew a little symbol on the notepad next to my bed. And it was a square with a circle inside. And I just kind of left it there ⁓ for a while. But then I was cleaning out my nightstand and found that again. And I realized how much I had thought about that symbol. And I started to research it little bit more. It's a symbol that is on ⁓ temples. ⁓ And it represents the square represents Earth and the circle is heaven. and it's a place where heaven and earth meet. So on the Salt Lake Temple, you'll see a square with a circle inside. This symbol also in philosophy means seeing things from all sides. I didn't know that until I started researching this. Hugh Nibley talks a lot about this symbol as being representative of communion with God. And there's a lot of geometry with it too. So this symbol was stuck in my head and I finally was like, I've got to get it out of my head. And I had such a strong feeling to do something that I would never have thought of doing. And that was to get a tattoo of that symbol on my left forearm inside. And I don't know why that spot stuck out to me so much, but I mean, it is a place where I could get like a perfect square. It's only about an inch, perfect square and a nearly perfect circle, as perfect as it can be on a human body. you know, in a tattoo. But about six months after that dream, you know, I did tell my husband, like, I feel like I should do this. He was the bishop at the time. 100 % supported it. He saw how much this meant to me and how much it was, you know, how much it mattered to me. So I did. And it's really just, it's a constant reminder to me of I will never in this life. Brynne Erickson (56:56) Mm-hmm. I'm Cami (57:22) reconcile the earthly and the heavenly. Like the square and the circle don't go, they don't really actually, you know, fit together perfectly. But I can live in this now. I can live in places that touch heaven, you know, because I'm always trying to be in those places where earth and heaven touch. And it's not actually necessarily the temple for me. It's being with my family. It's being outside. Brynne Erickson (57:38) Mm-hmm. Cami (57:50) anywhere that I can find light and truth. So that's sort of the experience I had and it's carried with me. Brynne Erickson (58:01) I love that so much. Why do you think it was given to you at that specific time six years ago? Cami (58:06) Because I didn't think I could ever reconcile this. I thought I'm gonna have to leave it all behind. I'm gonna have to let it all go. Because, you know, I don't know if there is... There's truth in other places. Maybe I don't need it here. And I don't... I'm not sure that Mormonism is the largest window on the truth. But it's where I have the most. I... As much as I learn about every other religion... I will never know as much as I know about Mormonism. And so I can both keep expanding my window of Mormonism and find truth other places too. I don't need to limit myself. But I thought it was kind of an all or nothing that we've talked about because we've been told that. Like it's either all true or it's all false. I don't believe that. But as I was trying to just kind of I don't know more of the seed garden ⁓ metaphor as I was trying to just pull out my beliefs of like, okay, I'm just going to pull it all out. I was realizing how empty and hollow I was. And in fact, what I needed to do was very carefully weed out the parts that weren't working and leave the goodness there. I didn't kind of slip into a nihilistic apathetic sort of thing. I think this showed me like Brynne Erickson (59:18) Hmm. Hmm. Cami (59:32) you can have light in any, you can seek it from so many different sources. And this is a temporary thing, this block, and you can move it from your mind. And if, as long as it's removed from your mind and you're still seeking the light, then you don't need to worry about what men are doing that are leading the church. And yeah, I don't know. Brynne Erickson (59:42) It's true. Yeah, so how have you separated or made it work to be a part of the systemic part of the LDS faith versus the intrinsic spiritual part? Like, how are you navigating that? Cami (1:00:15) That is the hardest question. I actually want to ask you because I haven't figured that out yet, Bren. Yes, how do you do that every week? Brynne Erickson (1:00:16) Mm. I just gave myself the permission to make it be whatever I wanted it to be. And that was scary, but it's been worthwhile. And yeah, I go to church like late every Sunday and I don't beat myself up about it anymore. Right? All the rules that I thought that were... in place in order to be doing it right to earn the celestial family or whatever. I questioned all of them. And I just kept being guided back to the golden rule of love. was like, all of it is just ideas on how to do it. But at the end of the day, you just, you do it your way. You like, do love. Cami (1:01:15) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (1:01:22) Please love yourself, love others. And I'm still trying to figure out what loving God is. I have other ideas about that now. ⁓ But, and I realized like I could live my whole life just trying to do those things and leave religion behind and just try to emulate love and light and goodness in this world every day. And that'll keep me busy till I die. So anything I do in addition to that is just bonus from here on out. And it was quite liberating to just be like, okay, I truly get to pick my own adventure. And if being here serves me, then I'm going to keep doing this. And if at some point it doesn't, I'm actually okay. Cause I believe everything's going to be okay. No matter how anyone chooses to live this life, there is such a bigger picture that we don't even have. Well, one we have zero evidence for. of this life to come. have people who have speculations and visions and insights, but how accurate those are, we will never know until in this life. I have faith that we will, more will make sense after. But if this is the one life that we know with certainty, then I'm going to put most of my emphasis on living this life and less emphasis on the life to come. And yeah, it's just... really serving me and helping me and I see covenants differently and I see a lot more grace, so much more grace from our heavenly parents and I think yeah I don't know how much the LDS church has gotten right or wrong but I do think that we are striving to create Zion which to me is the most worthwhile endeavor. on this earth. And I love my community. Like I'm so grateful that I have an awesome ward. know that there are a lot of people that don't feel that way about their wards. I've been in lots of wards and I've loved them all. And maybe that's just a part of me. I just love people. And for all of it, I love their weaknesses. I love their strengths. I give people a lot more grace too. I try to see things like When I don't agree with them, I'm like, wonder why they believe what they believe. And why do I see it differently? And does that mean that I'm right and they're wrong? Or are they right based upon their life experience and their perspective? And that's helped a lot because a lot of times I think when we go to church, we get angry at what other people are saying. And you have zero control over that. And then you start feeling annihilated and combative and belittled. And like you have something to prove. And I don't like feeling that way. Like that doesn't help me feel how I want to feel at church. So I'm trying to feel more empowered and calm. And that what I believe is actually enough. And that has been interesting too, where we put so much of our belief in what the prophet tells you you're supposed to put your focus on, or the manual tells you you're supposed to put your focus on, or your leaders that you revere. But when you really do the work to be like, man, but what do I want to believe? It's scary, but man, it's exhilarating and incredibly empowering. And I'll never be able to go back. I believe that that's truly what it's all about, is agency. I throw around that word want maybe too frivolously, but I believe that that's exactly what agency is, is taking ownership of every aspect of your life and encouraging others to do the same and bring as much love and light into this world. So that was a very long answer to your question. ⁓ Cami (1:05:31) No, very good. And I love how you said it is ideas. Now, if we put our faith in ideas and ideals instead of individuals and institutions or principles instead of profits or people, yeah, yeah, our group will be a lot stronger. It won't be so fragile because it's based on fallible people. Yeah. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (1:05:42) Yes, principals. Yes. rate. Alright, this is awesome. Cammie, any thoughts you want to leave with or things you want to chat about? Cami (1:05:58) Now, one that I have up on my wall that I ⁓ think a lot, it's a quote from Richard Feynman, who was a ⁓ theoretical physicist. And he said, I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. And that is sort of how I feel. just will live in those questions. And I'd rather have that than just this certainty with no challenge or thinking. Brynne Erickson (1:06:16) you Cami (1:06:28) Yeah, we'll make it work. Brynne Erickson (1:06:31) We are, we're all making it work in our own way and it's about loving and supporting each other through it. I, one day it'll all make sense in some form at some point. I have faith in that. Okay, thanks, Cammie. You're the best. Have a great night. Cami (1:06:48) Thank you, you too.