Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #467 Sibling Sexual Abuse

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#467 Sibling Sexual Abuse · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now.
0:10
Speaker 2: I think it's really important that parents are talking to
0:13
Speaker 2: kids generally about different stages of life and what society
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Speaker 2: expects from them.
0:18
Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
0:22
Speaker 1: and dad.
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Speaker 3: Well, not explicit, some of the things that we're going
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Speaker 3: to be talking about in today's podcast are for mature ears,
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Speaker 3: and there may be some people who may be triggered
0:32
Speaker 3: by some of the conversation that will be having in
0:35
Speaker 3: the podcast today.
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Speaker 4: So if you have sensitive.
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Speaker 3: Ears or little ears who are listening, this might be
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Speaker 3: one to either skip or listen to at a different time.
0:44
Speaker 3: We're talking about a very challenging and very important topic today.
0:48
Speaker 4: This is doctor Justin Coulson.
0:50
Speaker 3: I'm the founder a Happy Families dot com dot au
0:52
Speaker 3: and I'm really appreciative that you're joining me on the
0:54
Speaker 3: Happy Families Podcast today. Unfortunately Kylie couldn't be with me,
0:58
Speaker 3: but in response to a listener question that we had
1:01
Speaker 3: on Facebook a couple of weeks ago, I've reached out
1:05
Speaker 3: to Miranda Bain. Miranda Bain is the therapy services manager
1:10
Speaker 3: or director at ACT for Kids. A psychologist who works
1:15
Speaker 3: to help children and families who are going through some
1:19
Speaker 3: significant challenges, and she joins me today to talk about
1:23
Speaker 3: sibling sexual abuse. Miranda, thanks so much for being a
1:26
Speaker 3: part of the podcast today.
1:28
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me justin.
1:30
Speaker 1: So.
1:31
Speaker 3: We had a question come from a listener via Facebook
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Speaker 3: a little while ago. I want to read the question
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Speaker 3: to you, and once again just a warning in case
1:37
Speaker 3: people didn't catch it at the beginning, we are going
1:39
Speaker 3: to be talking about some fairly sensitive issues today. The
1:43
Speaker 3: Facebook follower asked this question, can you please help me
1:46
Speaker 3: out with some advice as to how to address the
1:48
Speaker 3: situation that I'm sure a lot of parents, including myself,
1:51
Speaker 3: don't know how to address or don't do well. I'm
1:53
Speaker 3: pretty sure I walked into my kids experimenting and experimenting
1:57
Speaker 3: is in inverted commerce, experimenting with these last night. They're
2:01
Speaker 3: sharing a room while we have family visiting. While I
2:04
Speaker 3: like to think I'm pretty open minded and body positive,
2:06
Speaker 3: I can feel myself battling my conditioning that kids should
2:09
Speaker 3: not be touching each other in this way. So can
2:11
Speaker 3: you please do a post about it or bring it
2:13
Speaker 3: up on the podcast? How do I talk to my
2:15
Speaker 3: kids about it. Do I even bring it up? How
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Speaker 3: do I do it in a way that doesn't make
2:18
Speaker 3: the exploration of their bodies shameful?
2:21
Speaker 4: But I also want.
2:22
Speaker 3: Them to understand the whole issue of consent and not
2:24
Speaker 3: touching other people if they don't want.
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Speaker 4: To be touched.
2:27
Speaker 3: This has created a really big and carefully worded series
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Speaker 3: of responses from people who have been in this situation, Miranda.
2:36
Speaker 3: Some people are saying, well, this is sibling sexual abuse.
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Speaker 3: This could turn into some really scary things. Other people
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Speaker 3: are saying, it's just kids trying to play doctors and
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Speaker 3: nurses and figure things out for themselves. In some ways,
2:50
Speaker 3: this could be a really simple conversation about kids experimenting and,
2:53
Speaker 3: like I said, playing doctors and nurses. But it also
2:56
Speaker 3: could be much more than that. Miranda, As somebody who
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Speaker 3: works in such a privileged and challenging position as a
3:04
Speaker 3: director of therapy services for ACT for Kids, how would
3:08
Speaker 3: you respond if you were asked this question by a
3:10
Speaker 3: parent who is obviously concerned.
3:13
Speaker 2: Well, I guess the first thing I would say is
3:17
Speaker 2: good on you for seeking support and information about it
3:21
Speaker 2: and your obvious intention to not shame or harm your child.
3:28
Speaker 2: One of the things that we do know is that
3:30
Speaker 2: there's a strong correlation between shame and lowered self esteem
3:36
Speaker 2: as a result of the way that our sexuality can
3:40
Speaker 2: be interpreted by others. So I just, I really I
3:44
Speaker 2: want to say that first, good on you for reaching
3:47
Speaker 2: out and seeking seeking information. I guess that's the second
3:51
Speaker 2: point I would say is if someone came to me
3:53
Speaker 2: with that scenario, I would say, gosh, really needs some
3:55
Speaker 2: more information. The writer said that the children were sharing
4:00
Speaker 2: a room because they were family visiting, But so I'm
4:04
Speaker 2: assuming they don't normally share a room. So some of
4:06
Speaker 2: the information that I would probably be interested in is
4:11
Speaker 2: do they typically play well together? Are they a similar age,
4:15
Speaker 2: is there a strong bond between them? Is there a
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Speaker 2: nice rapport? What was the context so you say you've
4:23
Speaker 2: got family staying, was that are there big changes in
4:27
Speaker 2: the family where their family issues going on? I guess
4:32
Speaker 2: also thinking about what are the household norms and rules
4:36
Speaker 2: for your household and do you have conversations with kids
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Speaker 2: about with your children about protective behaviors, so things like
4:44
Speaker 2: public and private body parts, safe and unsafe, touching, safe people,
4:51
Speaker 2: talking about consent, do the kids know their body part names?
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Speaker 2: Those sorts of things are I guess would help me
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Speaker 2: to know I guess to then where I would go
5:01
Speaker 2: from that?
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Speaker 3: Miranda, So so many important points already in what you've said.
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Speaker 3: It's also worth highlighting we don't know the age of
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Speaker 3: these children. That wasn't shared in this particular email, So
5:12
Speaker 3: it does kind of complicate the picture depending on whether
5:15
Speaker 3: the kids are really really young or whether they're somewhat
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Speaker 3: older and do no better. And to the extent that
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Speaker 3: they know better, do they really know exactly what it means?
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Speaker 3: So let's let's talk about this from a benign situation.
5:27
Speaker 3: Let's let's say that this is the first time it's
5:29
Speaker 3: ever happened. They're really young kids, it's a it's a
5:33
Speaker 3: scenario where we just need to talk to them about
5:35
Speaker 3: protective behaviors, as you said, and about private versus public
5:39
Speaker 3: body parts and the way we touch and what consent
5:43
Speaker 3: is and those sorts of things. Where do we draw
5:45
Speaker 3: the line? So, what are the scenarios where a simple
5:48
Speaker 3: conversation is going.
5:49
Speaker 4: To be enough?
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Speaker 2: Well, I think where a simple conversation will be enough
5:54
Speaker 2: is where it's developmentally normal, where there's an obvious curiosity
6:00
Speaker 2: and exploration rather than a sexual gratification. That's that the
6:04
Speaker 2: child seeking a sexual gratification, that it's sort of coming
6:08
Speaker 2: out of both children's mutual interests, that there's a mutual consent.
6:13
Speaker 2: Are they laughing and giggling? Are they being silly with
6:16
Speaker 2: it and having fun? Those are the scenarios where a
6:20
Speaker 2: simple conversation is likely to be enough in a context
6:24
Speaker 2: where those conversations happen naturally anyway, a bit like what
6:28
Speaker 2: I'm assuming happens with the writer of the question. I
6:32
Speaker 2: think the other thing, too, is that it's important to
6:37
Speaker 2: look at when you typically are managing a child's behavior
6:41
Speaker 2: and you redirect them to something else that you feel
6:44
Speaker 2: comfortable with them doing. Does that work in this situation?
6:49
Speaker 2: That's a really important thing to consider this behavior. Is
6:52
Speaker 2: it a one off thing? Is it just the exploration
6:56
Speaker 2: that would be part of their self their sexual development
7:01
Speaker 2: depending on their age and stage. And the most important
7:04
Speaker 2: thing is that there is no fear or power imbalance,
7:09
Speaker 2: That there's no violence or threats involved or forcing. So
7:15
Speaker 2: that's I guess that's where it isn't a simple conversation.
7:19
Speaker 2: And the other thing, and I'm conscious as I say
7:22
Speaker 2: this that you know parents are listening and but I
7:27
Speaker 2: just I have to be frank. Kids do what they
7:29
Speaker 2: see often, so exposure to online content, what older kids
7:35
Speaker 2: might be doing, movies, the parents own sexuality and domestic
7:42
Speaker 2: violence is a huge factor in harmful sexual behavior amongst
7:45
Speaker 2: peers and siblings, so we have to name that as well.
7:49
Speaker 2: This isn't about blaming parents, but it is about parents
7:53
Speaker 2: understanding that how they interact, particularly around power, has a
7:58
Speaker 2: direct implication for how chill and may explore this in
8:02
Speaker 2: their own development. Wow.
8:04
Speaker 4: So important.
8:05
Speaker 3: Now I'm going to assume based on what I've read
8:08
Speaker 3: in this, and I recognize those contextual factors that you've
8:11
Speaker 3: highlighted could steer.
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Speaker 4: This into a darker area.
8:14
Speaker 3: But I'm going to assume that most parents who would
8:16
Speaker 3: hear a scenario like that, and they're thinking of kids
8:18
Speaker 3: between let's say three, four, five, six, maybe seven years
8:21
Speaker 3: of age, are going to say the kids probably know better,
8:25
Speaker 3: but they're curious, and they're exploring, they're experimenting, and that
8:29
Speaker 3: conversation that you've highlighted is probably enough. But I want
8:33
Speaker 3: to suggest as well, and I'm curious about your response
8:36
Speaker 3: to this, would it be fair to say that kids
8:38
Speaker 3: who could be as old as ten eleven, maybe even
8:41
Speaker 3: twelve or thirteen might still be experimenting in a non
8:45
Speaker 3: devious kind of way, even though they know that they
8:48
Speaker 3: shouldn't be doing what they're doing, Like they know that
8:51
Speaker 3: it's wrong, they know that they'll get in trouble.
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Speaker 4: For doing it.
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Speaker 3: Maybe there even is a slight power and balance, But
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Speaker 3: they're not doing it in a way where they're kind
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Speaker 3: of going, I'm doing the for gratification. They're doing it
9:01
Speaker 3: because they're genuinely curious. They don't really get the ramifications
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Speaker 3: of what they're doing. They don't know why it's wrong
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Speaker 3: or how wrong it actually is. Am I soending too
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Speaker 3: much like an apologist for kids that are doing the
9:14
Speaker 3: wrong thing?
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Speaker 4: Or is that a reasonable position to hold?
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Speaker 2: Look, I think that, you know, we do want to
9:20
Speaker 2: give kids the benefit of the doubt, and it's probably
9:25
Speaker 2: really important to say at this point to justin that
9:29
Speaker 2: in the past there was a bit of a tendency
9:32
Speaker 2: for professionals and society generally to apply labels such as perpetrator,
9:38
Speaker 2: sexual offender to young people. And we do know that
9:42
Speaker 2: the age of criminal responsibility is a lot lower in
9:45
Speaker 2: Australia than in some other countries. However, so this is
9:50
Speaker 2: a factor. So the ages that you've just mentioned, they
9:53
Speaker 2: are ages where, depending on the circumstances, the police may
9:58
Speaker 2: get involved or so a report to child protection services
10:02
Speaker 2: may be indicated depending on what's happening. However, So that's
10:08
Speaker 2: important that kids, you know, we don't want kids to
10:11
Speaker 2: be naive to doing something that they think is silly
10:15
Speaker 2: or they're experimenting, but however it could have major consequences
10:18
Speaker 2: for them. So if we think about shoplifting, for example,
10:21
Speaker 2: similar similar type of thing, they could end up in
10:25
Speaker 2: a juvenile diversion or something could happen as a result
10:30
Speaker 2: of that that they are not expecting. So I think
10:33
Speaker 2: it's really important that that parents are talking to kids
10:36
Speaker 2: generally about different stages of life and what society expects
10:41
Speaker 2: from them. In terms of what you were saying with
10:45
Speaker 2: you know, is it genuinely about curiosity. One of the
10:49
Speaker 2: things to consider too is the wider family context and
10:52
Speaker 2: the school context and what's happening for that child or
10:55
Speaker 2: young person in terms of their developmental phase, and are
10:59
Speaker 2: there any cognive to delays or any other emotional delays
11:02
Speaker 2: which may be at play here as well? In terms
11:05
Speaker 2: of as you suggest that they may know that it's wrong,
11:08
Speaker 2: but still be engaging in the behavior, either because they
11:12
Speaker 2: feel pressured, it feels good, or they're responding to some
11:17
Speaker 2: kind of other external situation that they've been aware of,
11:22
Speaker 2: such as something that they've seen online. Kids do learn
11:26
Speaker 2: through exploring the world, and the consequences which come from
11:30
Speaker 2: that are often how we gauge and we reset and go, oh, okay,
11:34
Speaker 2: well I want to do that again, gosh. So I
11:37
Speaker 2: think that that's an important factor, but it's actually up
11:40
Speaker 2: to the adults in their lives to provide clear and
11:42
Speaker 2: consistent messaging about what is okay and what isn't. And
11:46
Speaker 2: so we also have to consider what we're role modeling
11:49
Speaker 2: in our adult relationships, particularly that involve sexual contact. I
11:56
Speaker 2: guess the other thing that is useful to consider is
12:00
Speaker 2: what is the behavior communicating. So, for example, if we
12:06
Speaker 2: are clear about what's occurred, and of course that your
12:10
Speaker 2: original writers question, we don't know exactly what the experimenting was,
12:15
Speaker 2: but it's useful as a parent to explore with your child.
12:20
Speaker 2: Have they seen images online of a sexual content or
12:23
Speaker 2: anything that's made them feel uncomfortable? If they have access
12:27
Speaker 2: to pornography, how often are they doing that, and what
12:30
Speaker 2: kind of pornography are they looking at. Checking with yourself
12:34
Speaker 2: around what messages overtly or or accidentally you might be
12:41
Speaker 2: giving them. I mean, we know lots of adult relationships
12:44
Speaker 2: today are very much about hookups and tender and sex thing,
12:52
Speaker 2: and so it could be that the child's also been
12:54
Speaker 2: explored to some adults are exposed to some adult behaviors
12:59
Speaker 2: which they than you know, they're trying to make sense
13:01
Speaker 2: of in their play. So think about that in terms
13:05
Speaker 2: of yourself as well, and do respond with your own curiosity,
13:11
Speaker 2: be curious, not condemning, because that stuff is a great
13:15
Speaker 2: way to build trust with your children over time and
13:21
Speaker 2: to normalize conversations, particularly things like masturbation. And we should
13:25
Speaker 2: be of course be talking about consent from an early
13:28
Speaker 2: age as well and what that looks like. Yeah, I
13:33
Speaker 2: think that children do get more and more curious about
13:36
Speaker 2: sex and relationships in the ages that you've mentioned. They
13:39
Speaker 2: it is of developmentally appropriate to have or want to
13:43
Speaker 2: have romantic relationships, to use sexual language and make jokes
13:47
Speaker 2: or discuss sexual acts with peers. Also to want more privacy.
13:52
Speaker 2: That's normal in that stage of sexual development for a child.
13:56
Speaker 2: The other thing is as you said the curiosity look
14:00
Speaker 2: looking for information about sex in books, online, or in
14:03
Speaker 2: the media, and this is where they may well be
14:05
Speaker 2: accidentally exposed to adult content that might be quite disturbing
14:10
Speaker 2: for them. Touching themselves or masturbating in private is also
14:14
Speaker 2: normative in this age range. But remember it's uncommon for
14:18
Speaker 2: children in that sort of age group to display sexual
14:22
Speaker 2: behavior in a public place or display adult like sexual
14:26
Speaker 2: behavior such as things like oral or genital sex. That's
14:32
Speaker 2: not normal set part of sexual development in this.
14:36
Speaker 3: Age There is so much to unpack or highlight in
14:41
Speaker 3: what you've just said. I'm going to try to do
14:43
Speaker 3: it like a thirty second summary, which doesn't do a justice,
14:46
Speaker 3: before we take a break and come back in a
14:48
Speaker 3: minute talk about a couple of other things. What I'm
14:50
Speaker 3: hearing you say is that it's typical and normal development
14:56
Speaker 3: from a sexual and psychological point of view for kids
14:58
Speaker 3: to be curious and even to want to experiment, but
15:02
Speaker 3: we want to make sure that there's nothing going on
15:03
Speaker 3: in the environment that could provoke any predatory or harmful behavior,
15:07
Speaker 3: things like pornography, major disruptions in the home, domestic violence,
15:12
Speaker 3: those kinds of things.
15:13
Speaker 4: And I'm also if I'm correct.
15:15
Speaker 3: What I'm hearing you say is that as kids get older,
15:18
Speaker 3: they may still have a desire to experiment, but they
15:20
Speaker 3: typically will experiment privately rather than bringing other people in.
15:24
Speaker 3: And once we start to have power imbalances, once we
15:27
Speaker 3: start to have sexual gratification seeking rather than experimentation, we
15:33
Speaker 3: might be starting to well, we are starting to tread
15:36
Speaker 3: on some.
15:36
Speaker 4: Pretty dangerous territory. Is that a reasonable summary?
15:39
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it is, Thank you.
15:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, Well, I mean there's so much that we've
15:44
Speaker 3: still got to be unpacked.
15:45
Speaker 4: So after the break, we're going to talk about when things.
15:47
Speaker 3: Start to get serious, how we can avoid downplaying things,
15:52
Speaker 3: and how to understand what sibling sexual abuse is. And
15:56
Speaker 3: we're also going to talk about what we can do
15:58
Speaker 3: as parents to help our kids be protected.
16:00
Speaker 4: From these kinds of challenges. That's right off the break.
16:04
Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast.
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16:22
Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time
16:24
Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers. Now, normally we talk
16:28
Speaker 3: about things to make family happier. Today, well, we're diving
16:31
Speaker 3: into the dark side a little bit and tackling one
16:33
Speaker 3: of the tough issues. We're talking about sibling sexual experimentation
16:38
Speaker 3: that can, even in some cases, lead to abuse. Miranda
16:41
Speaker 3: Bain from Act for Kids is joining me. Miranda acts
16:45
Speaker 3: currently as the therapy services director for Act for Kids
16:50
Speaker 3: and has been in that role for some time now
16:52
Speaker 3: and has shed a lot of thought provoking ideas in
16:57
Speaker 3: terms of a scenario that was presented to us by
16:59
Speaker 3: somebody on Facebook who said, what I do when I
17:01
Speaker 3: catch my kids sexually experimenting.
17:04
Speaker 4: With one another?
17:05
Speaker 3: Now, there was limited information, so we're kind of guessing
17:08
Speaker 3: about a fair bit of this. But Miranda, let's carry
17:10
Speaker 3: on this conversation now. Sibling sexual abuse, it's a reality.
17:16
Speaker 3: It happens. It might be tempting sometimes for parents to
17:20
Speaker 3: downplay it and think that it's just kids experimenting. How
17:22
Speaker 3: do we know, how do we where do we draw
17:24
Speaker 3: that line between experimentation and abuse? And how common is
17:29
Speaker 3: sibling sexual abuse? Let's talk about that what predicts it,
17:32
Speaker 3: where does it come from, how do we keep our
17:33
Speaker 3: kids safe from it. I'd love for you to just
17:35
Speaker 3: share for the next few minutes everything you can about
17:37
Speaker 3: this particular area.
17:39
Speaker 2: It's difficult to have specific research that relates to sibling
17:43
Speaker 2: abuse justin because of the secrecy around this particular issue.
17:50
Speaker 2: We do have parents who don't necessarily come forward and
17:54
Speaker 2: seek support. Children don't always disclose. What we do know
18:00
Speaker 2: is that siblings sexual abuse is very prevalent in harmful
18:05
Speaker 2: sexual behavior generally. So if so, sometimes what can happen
18:10
Speaker 2: is it can start with peers and then end up
18:14
Speaker 2: coming into the home or vice versa. Because we do
18:17
Speaker 2: know that children are usually opportunistic, it's about a situation.
18:24
Speaker 2: Things can happen spontaneously. So access to siblings is if
18:30
Speaker 2: one's considering experimentation, that's how that can arise. One in
18:37
Speaker 2: four children in Australia in terms of our recent research,
18:42
Speaker 2: who are sexually abused it is by a peer. So
18:47
Speaker 2: we know that a significant amount of harmful sexual behavior
18:52
Speaker 2: or abuse does occur between kids, and that's actually probably
18:59
Speaker 2: more likely than from a stranger, for example. So I
19:03
Speaker 2: think that's a really important message. We do know as
19:08
Speaker 2: well that there are some kind of common characteristics that
19:13
Speaker 2: happen for adults who abuse siblings and also friends or
19:17
Speaker 2: in a peers. But there are some differences that I
19:20
Speaker 2: have been able to find for you in this and
19:23
Speaker 2: that's that greater that sibling rivalry is a factor in
19:27
Speaker 2: sibling abuse sexual abuse, where it is more in that
19:33
Speaker 2: harmful sexual behavior or concerning aspect of things. So sibling
19:37
Speaker 2: rivalry and power and balances, as we described before, those
19:42
Speaker 2: are factors in sibling abuse. And also, as we've again
19:48
Speaker 2: touched on before, family dysfunction, a chaotic sort of household
19:53
Speaker 2: and exposure to violence is a common factor. We we
20:00
Speaker 2: do know, as I said before, that usually the selection
20:04
Speaker 2: of who the targeted child is is usually opportunistic. And
20:10
Speaker 2: as I said, you know, kids are together, they're at home,
20:14
Speaker 2: sometimes they are sharing rooms. But we also know that
20:18
Speaker 2: a lot of the behavior that can occur between kids
20:22
Speaker 2: is guided through their experience of witnessing online content or
20:29
Speaker 2: learning it from friends. So we found that about seventy
20:33
Speaker 2: eight percent of kids who were engaging in harmful sexual
20:37
Speaker 2: behavior had been prompted as a result of looking at
20:40
Speaker 2: sexually explicit materials online. And a further seventy two percent
20:45
Speaker 2: who were engaging in the behavior also found that they
20:48
Speaker 2: were learning about it from friends, So you know, you
20:51
Speaker 2: learn about things at school and then you you potentially
20:54
Speaker 2: are bringing that home.
20:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're extraordinary numbers.
20:58
Speaker 3: I mean, that's a really high number of kids that
21:02
Speaker 3: are being influenced in that way. Which goes back to
21:05
Speaker 3: that conversation we had about two weeks ago, I think
21:07
Speaker 3: it was Tuesday, two weeks ago, with Kristen Jensen from
21:10
Speaker 3: Defend Young Minds about how important it is to have
21:12
Speaker 3: conversations about explicit imagery, about pornography with our kids.
21:16
Speaker 4: Just as I'm listening to you.
21:17
Speaker 3: Go through these stats, I'm curious and I have my suspicions,
21:21
Speaker 3: But have you found that there's a gender difference males
21:24
Speaker 3: more likely to be involved in causing harm in this
21:27
Speaker 3: way than females.
21:29
Speaker 2: It's really an interesting question, isn't it. I have anecdotally
21:35
Speaker 2: my understanding from the services that we provide and some
21:39
Speaker 2: recent discussions that I had with staff who work in
21:42
Speaker 2: the field of child sexual abuse and also harmful sexual
21:46
Speaker 2: behavior treatment that under ten, it's often common for girl
21:52
Speaker 2: children to be the instigators. Over ten, it's more common
21:57
Speaker 2: and with adolescence for a b to be the instigator
22:01
Speaker 2: of the activity or the abuse if its abuse. So, yeah,
22:06
Speaker 2: there's some a little bit of stuff there. Certainly our
22:11
Speaker 2: statistics are hard because probably more males are taken through
22:16
Speaker 2: the juvenile justice system and there's you know, harder consequences
22:21
Speaker 2: that would come through. I would perhaps, you know, wonder
22:27
Speaker 2: if when it is girls, or if it's girls two
22:30
Speaker 2: girls together, whether it may not be treated in quite
22:34
Speaker 2: the same way as a boy with a girl or
22:37
Speaker 2: a boy and boy. I think that that there's often
22:41
Speaker 2: a not trivializing, but sometimes people relate to female sexuality
22:49
Speaker 2: in a different way than they do male sexuality.
22:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have no doubt that there would be some
22:54
Speaker 3: sort of a minimizing of it if it were girls.
22:56
Speaker 4: That seems to be.
22:57
Speaker 3: A cultural, a sociocultural response wants to female sexuality across
23:02
Speaker 3: the board. That also strikes me is interesting from the
23:05
Speaker 3: point of view that when we look at research, not
23:08
Speaker 3: that we've got great research on it, it's still so
23:10
Speaker 3: hard to get good data, but it seems that boys
23:12
Speaker 3: tend to on average, be exposed whether intentionally or unintentionally.
23:16
Speaker 3: They tend to be exposed to pornography around about the
23:20
Speaker 3: age of ten to eleven, and it's curious. We've got
23:24
Speaker 3: testosterone kicking it in, we've got increased interest in sexuality.
23:28
Speaker 3: That's where the pornography comes in. And we've got reasonable
23:31
Speaker 3: evidence now that pawn really does harm kids. It changes
23:34
Speaker 3: their beliefs about sex and sexuality and intimacy. And once
23:37
Speaker 3: you change somebody's beliefs, you're quite likely to change their behaviors.
23:40
Speaker 3: So everything that you've said there kind of sits within
23:44
Speaker 3: that broader landscape of what our kids are being exposed
23:46
Speaker 3: to and highlights how important is that we protect them.
23:48
Speaker 3: Maybe we can wrap up the conversation with just a
23:52
Speaker 3: handful of tips what comparents do. The idea is that
23:55
Speaker 3: people don't assault others, right. The idea is that we
23:58
Speaker 3: stop those who committing acts of abuse, whether intentionally or
24:03
Speaker 3: out of experimentation. We stop them from doing that. But
24:05
Speaker 3: we know that we don't live in a perfect world,
24:06
Speaker 3: and we want to help our kids to be protected
24:09
Speaker 3: and to defend themselves if they encounter somebody who might
24:12
Speaker 3: try to act on them in this way. So I
24:14
Speaker 3: want to be sensitive around asking that question, because really
24:16
Speaker 3: it shouldn't be up to the kids to protect themselves. Nevertheless,
24:20
Speaker 3: because of the world we live in, every parent wants
24:22
Speaker 3: to know how can I keep my kids safe? What
24:25
Speaker 3: would be your general tips maybe two, three, four, five
24:29
Speaker 3: tips to help parents to navigate this with their children
24:32
Speaker 3: sensitively and in age appropriate ways.
24:35
Speaker 2: Sure, and yes, it is very much the case that
24:40
Speaker 2: adults need to take responsibility for protecting children, and that
24:44
Speaker 2: part of that is actually teaching kids that it's okay
24:47
Speaker 2: to speak up for themselves and that when they do
24:50
Speaker 2: share something that's a worry to them, that they'll be believed,
24:54
Speaker 2: that they'll be reassured that that adult will do their
24:58
Speaker 2: best to help and suff work to address whatever that
25:01
Speaker 2: might be. And I guess the other thing too, is
25:05
Speaker 2: that just to reassure folks that it is really about listening.
25:09
Speaker 2: So sometimes we you know, we think as parents it's
25:13
Speaker 2: about teaching and telling and having all the answers. Actually
25:18
Speaker 2: with guiding your child through their healthy sexual development, it's
25:22
Speaker 2: actually very much about listening and taking cues from them.
25:25
Speaker 2: So we want to consider things like early protective behavior training.
25:32
Speaker 2: And this is you know, we know even throughout research
25:35
Speaker 2: that ACT for Kids has done that parents do believe
25:38
Speaker 2: that probably after age five that protective behavior training should
25:42
Speaker 2: occur and kids should know body part names and that
25:45
Speaker 2: sort of thing as they're entering school. However, we believe
25:48
Speaker 2: that actually kids do need to know younger than that age,
25:50
Speaker 2: and even naming the parts when you're changing a nappy
25:54
Speaker 2: or or helping with toileting is a really useful thing.
25:57
Speaker 2: And the other thing to really remember is it's so
26:00
Speaker 2: important that kids know the accurate body part names. So
26:04
Speaker 2: you know, we don't call an elbow something random. We
26:09
Speaker 2: call it an elbow. So it's really important that we're
26:12
Speaker 2: using the proper names for genitalia and that kids know
26:15
Speaker 2: those names from an early age. Even if you have
26:17
Speaker 2: other silly names you use for other things, it is
26:20
Speaker 2: important that they know the typer names.
26:22
Speaker 3: So Miranda, I've got to jump in here as well
26:24
Speaker 3: because something that something that I've been corrected on and
26:27
Speaker 3: I think that it is right is and I'm speaking
26:29
Speaker 3: specifically about female anatomy here, the area surrounding the vagina
26:35
Speaker 3: is called the labia. We shouldn't call the entire area
26:37
Speaker 3: the vagina, because if a child does encounter somebody who
26:41
Speaker 3: inappropriately touches them, they need to be able to say
26:44
Speaker 3: what has been touched. And having that level of knowledge
26:48
Speaker 3: helping them to understand that anatomical difference between labya and
26:53
Speaker 3: vagina is a really it's a really important difference.
26:56
Speaker 2: Look, I probably would use the term volver to describe
26:59
Speaker 2: the the female genitalia as an entirety. The labia are
27:04
Speaker 2: normally considered to be the external and external part. Then
27:10
Speaker 2: you kind of you've got the clitorists and the vagina,
27:13
Speaker 2: and it is really you're you're so right there. The
27:17
Speaker 2: vagina is important if we're talking about any kind of
27:21
Speaker 2: penetrative things that have occurred. Obviously, girls need to know
27:25
Speaker 2: about their vagina for things like menstruation. That's so important
27:30
Speaker 2: for them, as well as of course reproductive health. But
27:34
Speaker 2: you're right, the vagina is simply an opening into the body.
27:38
Speaker 2: But we would typically in our work refer to it
27:41
Speaker 2: as the vulgar and the penis, of course, but it's
27:44
Speaker 2: good for boys to also know that they have testicles
27:47
Speaker 2: and you know, the other bits of their body. So
27:50
Speaker 2: I guess that's where we can go to, you know,
27:53
Speaker 2: some of those old school books and kind of show
27:56
Speaker 2: children what they have and and depending on how you know,
28:01
Speaker 2: how normal nudity is in your household, it may well
28:04
Speaker 2: be that your children have seen you naked and that
28:07
Speaker 2: that's okay in your household. That's I guess. One of
28:10
Speaker 2: the things that I think is important to consider when
28:13
Speaker 2: you are wanting to keep your kids safe is think
28:15
Speaker 2: about what your culture is in the home and whether
28:20
Speaker 2: or not you would feel just as comfortable with a
28:22
Speaker 2: child being exposed to your cultural norms in somebody else's home. So,
28:27
Speaker 2: for example, you know, we want to raise children to
28:30
Speaker 2: be healthy, functional, safe adults and young people. So when
28:35
Speaker 2: kids start going on sleepovers and things you know you want,
28:39
Speaker 2: you wouldn't, one presumes, walk around with just a towel
28:44
Speaker 2: or nude going from the bathroom to the bedroom to
28:47
Speaker 2: get dressed if there was a child, a child's friend over.
28:50
Speaker 2: So I guess it's important for adults to remember that
28:54
Speaker 2: kids don't necessarily pick on those pick up on the nuances. So,
28:58
Speaker 2: oh well, if it's normal this that you know, dad,
29:01
Speaker 2: I'm just being very general here. Dad comes home from
29:04
Speaker 2: rugby practice and Juck's in the shower and then you know,
29:07
Speaker 2: runs runs to the bedroom and puts his clothes on.
29:09
Speaker 2: But there might be you know, a shot of a
29:11
Speaker 2: bum if you looked up that might be normal in
29:14
Speaker 2: that household and completely fine, but the child needs to
29:18
Speaker 2: understand that that only would happen when it's just special,
29:21
Speaker 2: you know, certain people in the house, and that it's
29:24
Speaker 2: not about inflicting that on someone else. So we do
29:27
Speaker 2: need to think about what's normal in your household and
29:30
Speaker 2: also consider as kids are developing, because privacy becomes a
29:34
Speaker 2: real thing for them, particularly in the age ranges we've
29:37
Speaker 2: mostly been talking about today, and so things like knocking
29:40
Speaker 2: on their doors, having conversations about bathrooms, who's allowed in
29:48
Speaker 2: the bathroom when you are showering, who's allowed in the
29:51
Speaker 2: bathroom when you're going to the toilet. Those are the
29:54
Speaker 2: things that in some households there may be blurred boundaries
29:57
Speaker 2: around that, and so it's really good to name that
30:00
Speaker 2: so that the child doesn't go into someone else's house
30:03
Speaker 2: and actually, you know, feel mortified because they've done something
30:07
Speaker 2: and been pulled up by you know, their friend's parent
30:10
Speaker 2: or or being embarrassed by the friends reaction. So that's
30:14
Speaker 2: one of the I almost call it like a duty
30:15
Speaker 2: of care that we have to to make sure that
30:18
Speaker 2: our rules at home are not random, you know, random
30:21
Speaker 2: and very different from what they might expect out there.
30:25
Speaker 2: So in terms of what you're saying, yes, kids need
30:28
Speaker 2: to know their their pop anatomical names for their body parts.
30:32
Speaker 2: They also need to know what's public and private. So
30:34
Speaker 2: we generally in our work we talk about public being
30:38
Speaker 2: bits that you see when people have clothes on or on.
30:43
Speaker 2: Given we're in Australia and lots of folks go to
30:45
Speaker 2: the beach and swimming, thinking about the private parts or
30:49
Speaker 2: what's typically covered by your swim your swimming costume, but
30:54
Speaker 2: also to consider touching, So what what parts are open
31:00
Speaker 2: and not okay to be touched by someone else and
31:02
Speaker 2: in what context? That's really important and it's important, I guess,
31:06
Speaker 2: to be hearing from your child what they who they
31:10
Speaker 2: think those safe people might be or in what context.
31:13
Speaker 2: And it's also really important to be identifying with them
31:19
Speaker 2: that they have the right to say no to someone
31:21
Speaker 2: touching with them and talking about consent early. So there
31:26
Speaker 2: could be, you know, it could be that you always
31:29
Speaker 2: have to kind of notice that the child doesn't really
31:32
Speaker 2: want to hug a particular relation who comes now. It
31:35
Speaker 2: might be because they don't really like hugging generally, or
31:39
Speaker 2: it might be this particular relative is not appealing to
31:44
Speaker 2: them to hug They need to have the right to
31:46
Speaker 2: say no. They need to explore other options of breeding
31:49
Speaker 2: that person high fives, fist bumps, whatever it might be.
31:54
Speaker 2: That still acknowledging that relationship, but doesn't mean that they
31:57
Speaker 2: have to be hugged. We shouldn't be forcing kids to
32:00
Speaker 2: be hugged by other people. I know that some of
32:02
Speaker 2: your listeners will probably think that that's that's a bit
32:07
Speaker 2: over the top, but I think that it is important
32:09
Speaker 2: because if we're forcing someone to sit on Santa's knee,
32:12
Speaker 2: if we're forcing someone to hug you know, grandpa, we
32:17
Speaker 2: need to have kids understand that when they feel like
32:20
Speaker 2: something's not right in their in their belly, or in
32:23
Speaker 2: their you know, anywhere else will they where they feel concerned,
32:27
Speaker 2: that they can act on that and they can say no,
32:30
Speaker 2: and that that's going to be respected. And if we
32:32
Speaker 2: don't actually model that at home and respect that, then
32:35
Speaker 2: we've got how on earth can we expect them to
32:38
Speaker 2: stick to their guns out in the real, you know,
32:40
Speaker 2: out in the bigger world, particularly as it comes to
32:44
Speaker 2: to dating and other relationships. The other thing that's really
32:47
Speaker 2: important that we talk to kids about is safe and
32:50
Speaker 2: unsafe secrets. So you know, there's secrets like, oh, we're
32:53
Speaker 2: keeping it a secret that we're having a surprise party
32:56
Speaker 2: for Auntie and it's going to be at our house.
32:58
Speaker 2: That's super cool and that it's fun, but that's actually
33:01
Speaker 2: almost like a surprise. So it's a special secret that
33:04
Speaker 2: we're keeping because it's about keeping the surprise from Auntie
33:07
Speaker 2: because she's going to have a fun time at her birthday.
33:10
Speaker 2: That's really different to someone using tactics, which might involve
33:18
Speaker 2: threat for example, and saying, well, if you don't, I'm
33:21
Speaker 2: going to I'm going to touch your willy and if
33:24
Speaker 2: you tell anyone, I'm going to take a you know,
33:30
Speaker 2: do something horrible to your family, or hurt your dog
33:34
Speaker 2: or throw or if it's a sibling, they might say,
33:36
Speaker 2: I'm I'm going to ruin your favorite toy and throw
33:41
Speaker 2: it out the window or you know, so those sorts
33:43
Speaker 2: of things. So a child may sometimes keep a secret
33:47
Speaker 2: out of fear, and that's quite different to keeping a
33:50
Speaker 2: secret out of excitement.
33:52
Speaker 4: Miranda.
33:52
Speaker 3: As we've had this conversation, there are obviously so many
33:55
Speaker 3: different pathways that we could go to explore to get
33:57
Speaker 3: more information. Unfortunately, time is going to beat us here.
34:03
Speaker 3: Any last thoughts, any other points that people should be
34:06
Speaker 3: aware of, any resources that you might direct people too
34:09
Speaker 3: so that they can help their children to be be safe.
34:14
Speaker 2: Yes, it is a big topic and I appreciate that
34:18
Speaker 2: we have very little time to kind of devotees, and
34:21
Speaker 2: I think, yes, it's really important to have protective behavior training.
34:26
Speaker 2: A number of schools in Queensland are offering that through
34:30
Speaker 2: a range of modalities. App for Kids has a program
34:34
Speaker 2: which is a gold standard, evidence based protective behaviors program
34:37
Speaker 2: for young children and that's you can read about that
34:41
Speaker 2: on our website. There's certainly some great materials on True
34:48
Speaker 2: True's websites, so folks may know of them as Scanily
34:51
Speaker 2: Planning Queensland. They've got some excellent resources on typical development
34:55
Speaker 2: for children and ways to encourage protective behaviors. Similarly, well,
35:02
Speaker 2: there's just yeah, there's a number of agencies that do
35:05
Speaker 2: that and certainly if you do google it you'll come
35:09
Speaker 2: up with a lot of options. But I would encourage
35:11
Speaker 2: you to go to reputable agencies and look at their
35:14
Speaker 2: websites first. Australian Childhood Foundation is another great example with
35:18
Speaker 2: great resources. The other thing to consider that I do
35:22
Speaker 2: think is really important is that if your child is
35:25
Speaker 2: engaging in a behavior and you do need to do
35:27
Speaker 2: something about it, reach out for help. Because we do know,
35:32
Speaker 2: and this is just to reassure parents, the absolute majority
35:38
Speaker 2: of kids who engage in even harmful sexual behavior do
35:43
Speaker 2: not grow up to become pedophiles. Typically that that is
35:47
Speaker 2: not what the research shows. The research shows literally that
35:51
Speaker 2: sometimes some kids grow out of it and they just
35:53
Speaker 2: start engaging in normal dating type behavior. But we don't
35:57
Speaker 2: want to ignore it at the same time, because the
36:00
Speaker 2: reality is there was someone, if it is a harmful
36:02
Speaker 2: sexual behavior situation, there was a child who was victimized
36:07
Speaker 2: by that, who did feel coerced or controlled or violated
36:11
Speaker 2: and abused, and we can't neglect their reality too. So
36:16
Speaker 2: if you're talking about siblings and managing that, it's really
36:20
Speaker 2: important to consider their relationship and preserving their sibling relationship.
36:25
Speaker 2: We don't want to have things get swept under the
36:27
Speaker 2: carpet or only one child received support and the other
36:31
Speaker 2: one get banished to Siberia. That's no good for the family.
36:35
Speaker 2: And we really again know that the best work that's
36:38
Speaker 2: happening in this space at the moment is family based work.
36:42
Speaker 2: It's environmental work that often includes schools and other supports,
36:47
Speaker 2: and that it's you're part of a care team. And
36:50
Speaker 2: I guess the last message I would say is please
36:53
Speaker 2: talk to your kids continuously and honestly and listen to them.
36:57
Speaker 2: That's probably a really important message.
37:01
Speaker 3: Miranda Bayin, the director of therapy services for ACT for Kids,
37:05
Speaker 3: an important conversation. Thanks so much for your time.
37:08
Speaker 2: Thank you, Justin, have a great day.
37:10
Speaker 3: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rulon from
37:14
Speaker 3: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For all
37:17
Speaker 3: of the resources that Miranda has highlighted and others, you
37:20
Speaker 3: can check the show notes for today's podcast. I'm sure
37:24
Speaker 3: that you'll find that helpful, and if you'd like more
37:26
Speaker 3: info about keeping your family safe and making your family happy,
37:29
Speaker 3: visit us at happyfamilies dot com dot a u