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What makes a great project leader? · Project Podcast

0:14
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
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the project profession. My name is Emma Devitra and I'm
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the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
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today. In this podcast I'm joined by
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two leadership experts, Doctor Paul Chapman, Senior Fellow at
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Saeed Business School at the University of Oxford, and Gordon
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Mackay, Project Management Capability Lead at Sellafield,
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who also provided subject specialist knowledge for a new
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APM Learning module on Leadership of Self, which is
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coming out soon. The module explores steps you
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can take to become more self aware and outlines how this will
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help you develop the ability to lead others.
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I'm asking Gordon and Paul to delve deep into their experience
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and research to pass on their advice on what it takes to be a
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great project leader in 2025. I'm sure it hasn't escaped you
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that leadership and project management is a hot topic.
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Now more than ever, there's a realisation that leading
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projects and programmes successfully requires people who
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are collaborative, inclusive and empowering.
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It sounds great on paper, but it can be a tall order to achieve
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in real life. So to help you, let's hear from
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Paul and Gordon about what they've learned from their many
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years of experience. So welcome both.
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Why has leadership becoming an even more important part of
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project management? Because I think it has.
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I think the people side of delivering projects and
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programmes has become extremely critical and you know, a point
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of much discussion. Why do you think that is Paul?
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Well, I think, well, we can link it directly back to to the world
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of projects and and I think let's start with remembering
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Martin Barnes of blessed memory, former president of APM and also
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the major Projects Association. And Martin wonderfully captured
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project management is people getting stuff done.
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And it's just such a nice, clear definition, and there's lots of
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kinds of projects and there's lots of kinds of people, but it
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really cuts the heart of the work.
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And it helpfully contrasts with the slightly technocratic view.
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Some, like project management is it's the knowledge set.
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The knowledge set is really important.
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There are better ways of getting projects done.
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And I think Martin wonderfully made us connect back to its
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people and where there's people and where there's people working
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in not just ones and twos, but groups and teams.
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And at organisational level, we need some sort of order and
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structure. And I think that's one of the
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roles that leadership plays. I think we also need to be
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careful to tease out management. Good management is really
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important. And then there's this slightly
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ephemeral thing of leadership and, and hopefully we've got a
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bit of time we can try and prod and poke it and work out what it
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is. Well, let's start prodding now.
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What what is the difference in your mind between what makes a
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great project manager and what makes a great project leader?
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Because there'll be project managers listening to this
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thinking, what if I just carry on doing a good job, perhaps
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that I'll automatically become a project leader.
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But I know what has served you well in the past is not
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necessarily what will serve you well in the future.
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So if, if there are people in that position now, what is the
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difference? I think, I think maybe to kick
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off, I'd encourage everyone to reflect.
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Yeah. What is this leadership thing?
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And then there's a sort of you, you know it when you see it and
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encourage everybody to think they, they were really good
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managers and they were nice people and they were great
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colleagues. And then somewhere in this,
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there'll be some people who start to stand out and they
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might be in positions of seniority.
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So senior leaders. And sometimes it's like, no, no,
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they're just people occupying a role and a chair and they're
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doing their job well. But some of the leaders might be
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actually amongst our colleagues, amongst our peers.
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And I think one of the places that leadership has evolved in
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recent times is recognising the leadership role of people in
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relatively junior positions and maybe early career.
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And that stands out in things like the changes in technology
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that we're all experiencing. And we sort of feel a little bit
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out of the depth. And the world has moved on
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quicker than we have. And it's like, who do we go to
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for help and support? And sometimes that's technical
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stuff. Well, well, you do it like this.
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But we also see in early career people that they're taking a
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somewhat bigger role. It's not the things and the
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stuff. We can get leadership coming up.
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We can get leadership from peers as well as the more conventional
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view of from seniors. So let's let's kind of again
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spread our spread our net pretty wide in, in terms of how we
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think it. But I think there's something
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intuitive here. We tend to know it when we see
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it. That's interesting point,
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Gordon, what's your take on things?
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Why? Why do you think leadership has
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become an even more important part of project management?
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And would you agree that leadership now can be spotted or
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appreciated early on in your career rather than thinking you
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have to climb the career ladder? And it's it's the number of
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years you've got under your belt that is what makes you a leader?
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How are things changed? As Paul was talking there, I was
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came to mind a book I read many, many years ago by an author
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called Trevanian called Shibumi, and it's a Japanese concept.
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And Shibumi, they say, is somebody with authority, without
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domination. The person that comes into the
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room, they don't assert themself with that kind of traditional
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stereotypical alpha male stuff. They quietly come in, but
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somehow people listen. Another angle on this is how I
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differentiate between leadership and management.
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If I come into the room and I'd say to you, I'm your manager,
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I'm invested with authority by the organisation, people
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recognise and acknowledge that. But if I come into any context
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and I say I am your leader, then there'll be quite a few people.
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For me, the idea of leadership is something which is you, you
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compliment somebody with that. It's it's something that's
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offered rather than demanded. It's conferred the idea of
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leadership that gives you the feel of where I see leadership
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coming from. And a big driver for this is out
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in the organisational environment of project delivery,
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in particular reflected in the APM Body of Knowledge 7th and
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8th edition, where we're moving from stakeholder management to
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stakeholder engagement. And that in and of itself speaks
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volumes to me that just as previously we would think of
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Jack Sparrow engaging with the enemy stakeholder management and
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doing that kind of thing, today we're in an environment where
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very often the people that I need to deliver my project as a
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project leader, I'm not even in my organisation.
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I have no organisational authority over that person which
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demands therefore these stakeholders.
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I cannot, I can engage with them on one level, but I'm trying to
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secure engagement from and between diverse stakeholders
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within and without the organisation.
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And in many organisations we now have many multidisciplinary
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areas made even more complex by the the Internet of Things and
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the level of intercontinent connectivity and
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interdependence. So in in terms of leadership,
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the function and form of leadership reflects the fact
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that on the one hand, organisational structure, the
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project delivery organisation is multidisciplinary, trans
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organisational often. And in addition to that, the
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delivery environment for projects today has gone through
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a quantum change from those days when I had command over that
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environment. I'm going to deliver in, I could
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say who could do what when now with many stakeholders, I have
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to negotiate, imagine HS2 just to get access to go and work on
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that piece of land. And so, so the whole delivery
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environment is much more complex.
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Plus the fact that the level of interdependence means there are
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so many different organisations contributing as I do my project
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plan going forward and my critical path, the number of
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interdependencies has escalated, you know, geometrically, you
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know, hyperbolically. So therefore the function of me
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in delivering that project, I cannot by definition manage.
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I don't know anything about all the situations out there.
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I need to deliver an agile, adept organisation,
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transportation or team that is able to navigate complexity.
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And that's at the heart. And that's the shift from
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management, where it's somebody who's a subject matter expert
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telling everybody what to do, to a situation where I'm trying to
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draw upon and bring together many diverse experts in a
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collaborative agile team that can navigate that complexity in
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an efficient and effective way. I want to try and get to the
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heart of what successful project leadership means right now and
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what does it take to be a highly effective leader.
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And it is about this idea of kind of kind of earning
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followers. I think it's like you said, it's
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not just about coming in and saying I am your leader, which
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does make me laugh, OK. I can't imagine it would be
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tempting to be able to do that in some instances.
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But also the volatility, the complexity stuff is changing all
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the time. And when I've spoken to people
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about all the tech developments right now and AII mean it is
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accelerating at the fastest ever.
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There's no constant anymore. There's always something to kind
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of be able to get your head round.
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So to go back to this, what, what does it take to be a
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leader, a good leader, a great leader Right now, I'll draw a
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little on some of some of the things that, that I do at, at
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Oxford. So one of my jobs is so I, I run
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the UK government's major project, Leeds for Academy.
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And yeah, it's a, it's a brilliant role.
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And I've done that since 2012, which turns out was quite a long
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time ago. And, and when trying to teach
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leadership, because that's what we do, we've been doing it this
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week with a group you, you've kind of got to have a frame of
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reference. And so have spent quite a bit of
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time just trying to boil it down.
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And I'm happy to, to go here's, here's something that that's a
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work in progress. But you know, we've we've been
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working on it for a while and it's seems to be getting there.
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We we draw upon some of the work, yeah, the work of others.
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And, and, and one bit of work I think is really useful for
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anybody thinking about leadership is is a book written
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by a couple of colleagues, David Pendleton and John Cowell and
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their Co authority, Adrian Furnham called No More Heroes.
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And buried in there they get to the tasks of leadership.
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And so they've really kind of pared this back.
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What is it leaders do? And, and, and they suggest
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there's five things. And it's like, really it you've
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sounded super complex and and you've brought it down to five
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things go you. And yeah, it's always more
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complicated, however useful. And they say what leaders do is
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they inspire. And that's maybe some of the
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points we're touching on here. It's beyond management.
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And the inspire bit is creating a sense of psychological
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purposefulness. Why is the thing that we are
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doing, because it's a collective important and how is it
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important to you? So I think a job of a leader is
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to go, here's an important thing and this is how it connects to
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you. And so it makes a makes a big
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issue, quite a personal issue. Great.
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We're all on board. There's lots of us.
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There's many things to do Next job focus out of the many things
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we could be doing, we are going to do this and there's a little
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bit of getting agreements to that.
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Some of it's also to lead is to show the way.
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It's also providing direction. So you've got to have a bit of
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positional authority, but you've more got to have the authority
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that comes with knowing and and often having experience and
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maybe a track record. So that's maybe why some of the
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leaders are in senior roles and they've got a, they've got a bit
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of mileage under the bonnet because having done it before
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does give you the ability to talk a little bit.
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Great. We've inspired, we've focused.
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And then the secret sauce, if we were to ask what is leadership,
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there's a version of it which is enable others to succeed.
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So task three enable this is the no more heroes ideas.
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You can't do everything yourself.
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A really good leader enables others.
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They've created the the place and that's maybe where we kick
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into the second big idea, psychological purposefulness,
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great psychological safety. You can be you in the
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organisation. If it's at work, bring the whole
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you to work, not, not the bits that you're trying to hide
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because, you know, we've all got sort of interesting quirks.
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Yeah, yeah. No, bring those two, you know,
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in your fullness and richness and marvellousness.
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Inspire, focus, enable, reinforce.
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Because we are on the journey. Things and stuff will happen.
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People will have brilliant ideas.
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Yeah, they're all brilliant. However, back, back to focus and
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then the bit which sometimes gets left off because in the
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world of projects in particular, we are in a hurry.
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Learn how do great organisations get better over time?
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How do teams get better over time?
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How do people get better over time?
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It's making sure there is a place and a space to learn, to
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kind of step back, to reflect, to do a doodle, to write a poem,
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to draw a picture, to, to, to write a blog post for the APM,
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you know, whatever floats you. And then you go that that's it.
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Wow. And so thanks, Thanks David,
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John and Adrian for for kind of spending a bit of time to think
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through that on their experiences.
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And so sometimes, yeah, on a dark night and I'm pondering,
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you know, what's what is this leadership thing, because it
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take you many directions. That's one of the places that I
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come back to. Yes.
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Which what do leaders do, Gordon?
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What what what's what do you think about that?
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Is there anything you'd like to add, agree, Disagree with?
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Oh, I agree. Certainly.
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Yeah. I resonate a lot with what we're
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saying there. And there's a couple of things
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that came to mind. There's a gentleman called Dave
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Marquet, not Mackay, MARQU EE. He wrote a book called Turn the
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Ship Around. He was appointed to take charge
16:23
of the worst operating submarine in the American fleet, as
16:26
assessed, and within a year he turned it round to best.
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And then in addition to that, more people went on.
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Officers went on to become captains of ships subsequently
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who'd worked for him and his approach to this, we're talking
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about enabling there was when people came to him with a
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problem of challenging. So what's your intent to foster
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that engagement and give people motivation, a vision, inspire
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them to enable others to rise up?
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And I think that's a great way of dealing with complexity.
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It's a little bit like as well in project delivery these days
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in critical chain, for example, we're trying to identify
17:04
constraints and being aware and a little bit about learning.
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As we're going through the project now, it's increasingly
17:12
important to as, as another thought, Doctor Sabrina Cohen
17:17
Hatton, she's chief fire officer, and she instigated a
17:21
new technique whereby when the incident commander lands at the
17:24
scene of fire and looks at Grenfell Tower burning, and then
17:29
they look at one thing, they look at another thing and
17:31
basically they're building an observational bias.
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I've got this picture in our terms.
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How am I going to deliver this project?
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Yes, I know exactly what I'm going to do.
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And then Sabrina Cohen Hatton's interjection comes in and she
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says, what have you missed? And all too often with projects,
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we're failing to do this on an ongoing basis in the sense
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particularly of what's changed, what are the critical factors,
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what are the constraints and delivery to be learning all the
17:57
time, learning from the good, learning from the bad.
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And we do a risk assessment. We should also be doing
18:02
opportunity assessments on a regular basis because things are
18:06
changing all the time. You might be able to say by
18:09
something that's available, wasn't available yesterday.
18:12
So I think that learning thing, particularly in a complex
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delivery environment and a key factor in successfully
18:18
navigating complexity is to become a consistently open to
18:22
new learning that builds in a level of modesty.
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No, I don't know everything. A lot less egocentric.
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I'm prepared to learn and listen to others.
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I'm encouraging people to contribute and tell me if
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they're aware of a different perspective of something
18:36
happening that I might not be aware of.
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So this enabler function I think is key and offering that sense
18:44
of trust that people feel they can speak up and come forward,
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enabling people to realise their potential as individuals.
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And under the Hersey Blanchard level, for the APM people to
18:54
step back in the Tuchman bit, are we forming, storming,
18:57
norming, taking people to evolve through that whole thing?
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I think all too often people on the Hersey Blanchard get stuck
19:05
in the directing. They never get through to the
19:07
coaching level. And we should be doing that with
19:09
individuals and the team. How is the team operating?
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Is Jack talking to Jill? If not, why not?
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What I can, what can I do to to foster communications, that kind
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of thing. Have you got any advice on
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creating the right kind of culture as a leader?
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Because you have that responsibility.
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Whether or not you realise it, you are a role model and people
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are looking to you for direction in a way that they don't from
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their manager. I think the key one in that for
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me, I go back to Eric Byrne and transaction analysis and the
19:42
idea that in management terms we're very often talking parent
19:45
child communications. It tends to be one way, It tends
19:48
to be quite assertive and and for me counterproductive.
19:52
Taking the Dave Rock neuroscience model, the SCARF
19:54
model, you actually inhibit people's neurological
19:57
performance by relating to them in that way, whereas with the
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more adult adult form, and this also ties you in another
20:05
conversation earlier. And they're about leadership and
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we tend to traditionally think of leaders and followers.
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I think in this context, to be effective, it's leaders and team
20:15
members because we're trying to close that gap and bring the
20:18
team members upwards rather than keeping them all followers do as
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I say, not, you know, that kind of thing.
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So the adult adult conversations to Foster and bring out the best
20:29
in everybody, I think is key. So communication should reflect
20:33
this adult, adult relationship. If I come to you as a culture
20:37
and mentor and a mentor, not in the dictatorial sense, but
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somebody that's on your side, building mutual respect,
20:44
building rapport, rather than trying to dominate and command
20:48
and control, it'll be far more effective in soliciting and
20:51
enlisting the best and that person realising their
20:54
potential. Yes, and I think, I think the
20:58
mood music in an organisation is sort of indicative of the
21:04
culture. So you know, and sometimes
21:07
storytelling can help, but a lot of it was just just observing
21:12
behaviour. So storytelling is occasionally
21:15
who are the heroes, who are the villains?
21:18
You know, sometimes it's getting people to reflect back on
21:21
experiences, you know, what worked well, what did not work,
21:25
work so well. And that's, that's sort of
21:27
bringing in a learning culture, I think being reflective on.
21:34
And if I, if I can come on to sort of a slightly wider point,
21:37
what one of the frames that that we're trying to encourage people
21:41
to, to look at is, is how they lead a project and how they lead
21:48
themselves. And the challenge here is
21:51
understanding yourself. And there are Ways and Means to
21:54
do that. And then understanding your
21:58
impact on others. And there's Ways and Means to do
22:00
that. So in terms of learning about
22:03
yourself, because personality, you know, kind of two or three
22:09
years post puberty's fairly, fairly settled.
22:13
So you, you can kind of do psychometrics on people and then
22:18
do it later on. If it's a good psychometric, if
22:20
it's reliable, it, it, it suggests that personality is
22:24
quite stable. Our, our preferred 1 is the,
22:30
it's known as a neo. It measures the big 5 factors of
22:36
personality. That's that's I think the the
22:39
best regarded measure of that and just helping people
22:44
understand themselves. This what one of the personality
22:48
characteristics people are most familiar with is sort of
22:51
introversion, extroversion, one of the five, and then there's
22:55
four others. Helping understand yourself
22:59
helps you explain how you behave in different settings.
23:04
Great, there's a bit of that's you.
23:07
Most people have that. They've got sort of natural
23:10
talents that have helped them in their lives and careers.
23:16
Many people have recognised that there's work rounds they need to
23:19
do that. The introvert extrovert things.
23:21
Most introverts worked out that the world is mainly built for
23:25
extroverts and they will mimic extrovert behaviours even though
23:30
it could be quite tiring. And the other 4 characteristics
23:33
have similar sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
23:36
So one of them is it's, it's known as neuroticism, which is
23:39
also often as a pejorative thing, but it's emotional
23:42
reactivity. So some type of people with low
23:46
emotional reactivity just really stable, but they miss a lot.
23:50
And people who are sort of, you know, high emotional reactivity,
23:54
they're just a little bit more finely tuned.
23:57
And in many, yeah, it can be slightly exhausting for them and
24:00
occasionally for others around them, but they're really good at
24:03
picking up weak signals. Ah, great.
24:07
You know, that's, that's an asset.
24:09
Then we get other things. Agreeableness, conscientiousness
24:14
is something that we kind of often hope for in people in the
24:18
project profession. Will you get this done?
24:20
Yes, however long it takes. And can also be a curse for
24:26
those who are very conscientious because they end up working late
24:31
and burning out. You know, sometimes they would
24:34
wish they were the person who could, you know, kind of close
24:37
the laptop at 5:30 or wander off and do something else.
24:41
And so understanding yourself helps explain how you show up.
24:45
And then how do you show up? Well, you know, you can ask
24:48
people, but things like 360° surveys of seniors, peers,
24:54
colleagues, team members, yeah, etcetera are really useful just
25:00
to give people clues on you're good at this, you're not so good
25:05
at that. And one of the really big ideas
25:09
we've found hugely useful is the incomplete leader Gordon.
25:15
We've we've just met. You seem wonderful in every way.
25:20
And then even, you might be thinking, I've, I've done a good
25:23
job masking this because if even with my wonderfulness and my
25:29
great experience, I really, really struggle at this.
25:34
And sometimes you find a way to kind of, you know, just just
25:39
kind of do enough. And then for some people,
25:43
there's just some things you go, I've tried it.
25:47
I was rubbish at it at school, I'm rubbish at it now.
25:51
And so the other half of this big idea, incomplete leader,
25:55
complete team, it's having teams made-up of diverse
26:00
personalities, skill sets and experiences.
26:03
And when you kind of go, you go Gino, that's blooming genius,
26:08
except for a traditional thing of people often recruiting teams
26:14
in their likeness. And it's like, wow, you've got
26:18
all the same strengths and all the same weaknesses.
26:22
That is not a good team. So, so sometimes leadership is
26:27
know yourself, understand how you show up at work in those
26:32
leader environments and how you create that team and, and
26:37
cherishing the difference. Oh, now we're now we're talking.
26:43
That's quite a if you're a leader for the first time.
26:46
Sorry, Paul, That was really, really great words of advice
26:50
there. I'm thinking if perhaps you
26:53
haven't much experience of being a leader, it's quite daunting to
26:58
say I don't know everything and I'm not good at everything, but
27:04
so you have to be quite brave, I think.
27:06
And the other thing I've been chewing over was, as you were
27:10
talking, and inclusivity is a big thing and you can, you know,
27:14
the the benefits of that are appreciated at every level.
27:18
But how inclusivity, including different ways of thinking in a
27:25
team means there's going to be discord or challenge.
27:30
And as a leader, how do you deal with that in a positive way?
27:39
Because I guess the reason many people higher in their likeness
27:42
is because they get on with people and it's like a shortcut
27:45
to getting stuff done. And we know that's lazy and you
27:48
won't get the best outcome necessarily.
27:53
So how, how do you change? How do you frame things in a way
27:56
that you think, well, this is going to be exciting or
27:59
challenging because there'll be people who will think completely
28:03
differently to me that have you any words of advice about
28:07
creating a culture as a leader or being a role model when it
28:11
comes to leading people, people with very different opinions?
28:19
Can I there's two points here. I've got and pick up the first
28:22
one and one is careers. And, and there's a, there's a, a
28:26
development through early stage career, which is deepening
28:30
subject matter expertise. And, and we see that in
28:33
projects. I, I had a few years chairing
28:38
the professional standards and knowledge committee and I'm
28:39
very, very proud of the APMS kind of qualifications.
28:44
So project fundamentals is a brilliant go to start
28:49
qualification. It shows that you understand the
28:52
fundamentals. They're really important.
28:55
And then you kind of that that worked well.
28:58
And I'll deepen my such a matter of expertise and maybe I can
29:01
reflect that with the management qualification and then the
29:04
project professional qualification.
29:06
And happiness is, you know, more childhood project professionals.
29:11
And what they're doing is they're deepening.
29:14
And increasingly that's the awkwardness in that career.
29:17
If somebody asks you a question, they expect an answer.
29:22
I like to say there's just a quite remarkable moment in a
29:26
career where you become comfortable with, I don't know,
29:31
and it might the next bit of that sentence might be, I don't
29:34
know, I'll go and ask the expert in my team because I lead
29:39
experts. Oh, right.
29:42
So so you're not the expert. No, I'm the leader of experts.
29:47
That's why I have a team. And particularly if it's the
29:50
subject matter expertise is not just getting projects done,
29:54
project management stuff, but maybe some other technical
29:57
things as well. So we have deep subject matters
30:00
and it's going, what you've done is you've created this amazing
30:04
group of subject matters living experts living their best life.
30:09
And one of the problems organisations have, and you
30:12
know, I've bumped into this first working with Rolls Royce
30:15
aero engines is at the time, and it was a while ago, I'm sure
30:18
things have been proved really good engineers and there's a
30:22
proper engineering company could only progress in their careers
30:27
if they went into management. And so Rolls Royce risked the
30:32
lost a good engineer, gained a bad manager.
30:36
And so just getting that some engineers are also good
30:40
managers, some engineers are also great leaders, but they're
30:45
mutually exclusive. So when you move up the to a
30:51
point of leadership where it's being comfortable with the
30:56
unknowing, it's you know, you get weird expressions like it's
30:59
it's knitting fog and managing uncertainty and not foe trying
31:06
to pretend that things are all well, we know where we're going
31:11
and we know how to get there. You don't so because no one
31:17
knows, because it's unknowable. So should we pretend that we do
31:24
or should we acknowledge and embrace?
31:27
So I think that's that's part part of part of that.
31:31
And sometimes that's why it's quite difficult and an
31:36
authenticity and being comfortable with not knowing
31:40
might be one of the the kind of key signs.
31:45
And then your second question is around how, how do you get that
31:48
breadth? And I think sometimes there is a
31:51
bit of an illumination and most begin it's this.
31:54
Yeah, actually, we, you know, no, no one's great at
31:57
everything. And that does run counter to
32:01
some cultures in in the military for a long time, there was the
32:05
notion of the well-rounded officer.
32:07
And then you meet officers and, and, and they're not
32:11
well-rounded and haven't met 1 yet.
32:13
And so it's like really great. So, so I can be a bit more a bit
32:17
more of myself. Yeah, there's minimum standards
32:20
of stuff, obviously. But then what we're to do is
32:24
build that team. And maybe that's one of the
32:27
things that we need to just call out in teams that are a bit, you
32:32
know, they're kind of the intellectual gene pool was a bit
32:34
bit shallow. Go ahead.
32:38
Sorry, sorry. Yeah, a few prompted a few
32:40
thoughts there. Stephen Covey, 7 Habits highly
32:44
Affected people and Sir John Whitmore, Coaching for
32:46
performance. Both refer to some called the
32:48
leadership curve, which is about, as it were, the
32:51
psychological progression, the journey, the adventure of
32:55
emotional and intelligence from being almost childhood up to
32:59
leadership. And there's a key part where
33:01
people get stuck. So we start off independence
33:04
when we're looking around us to say I'm OK, mummy, daddy, what,
33:08
what makes me good, what makes me bad.
33:09
You know, we grew up this curve. And then we move to the stage of
33:13
independence. So we know that people in that
33:16
testosterone fuel period from 15 to 25 or whatever, I know
33:20
everything. Don't tell me what to do.
33:21
I'll get home on a Friday night whenever I want, so nobody tells
33:25
me what to do. I know everything.
33:27
Very self assured, very assertive, at least on the
33:29
surface. However often there's a lot of
33:32
uncertainty and insecurity underneath that.
33:34
But nonetheless, they're in that stage of independence, the final
33:39
step which mirrors the journey that was the Hero's Journey by
33:43
Joseph John Campbell. Joseph Campbell It gets to the
33:46
point where as leaders, as managers, we one day get to that
33:51
point, a transition key transition moment into adulthood
33:55
in the sense that we realise, you know what, I don't know
33:59
everything I need this team, this diverse team, collective
34:04
team working together, otherwise it's not going to happen.
34:08
And that's when they move into the stage of interdependence.
34:11
And that's the emotionally intelligent leader who
34:14
recognises interdependence. The need for others is not
34:19
insecure or discomforted by the fact that, and this is the
34:23
reality, folks, isn't it? Some of these people around the
34:26
table know more than I do. In fact, many of them may be a
34:29
master's degree in chemistry, engineering, things that I don't
34:32
have, I need them. There's no way I can talk to
34:35
them as a subject matter expert. My function and the form of fit
34:39
for purpose leadership is being able to draw upon all that and
34:42
not feel threatened by the fact that others no more, but
34:45
actually to encourage that and to get that done.
34:48
Collective dynamic working. I, I would just 100% agree with
34:52
you, but how as a project leader, when you're dealing with
34:58
experts, can you get them to trust you that you know what
35:05
you're doing and that it's OK that you don't know what they
35:09
know? Because and that can be a
35:14
problem for younger women who enter a project in who work at
35:21
leading projects in male dominated environments like
35:24
construction, the built environment, infrastructure
35:27
projects where they're perceived as a young woman.
35:30
And sometimes that's taken as you, they're not given the level
35:36
of respect, but you would normally give a leader because
35:40
they're perceived as being although too young or they don't
35:42
know what they're talking about. And it comes down to
35:44
self-confidence as well, which is still remains an issue.
35:48
It was something that came up at the APM Women in Project
35:51
Management conference that I attended recently.
35:55
And this is a little bit like what prompts the idea that, you
35:57
know, of holding people to account and stuff very often and
36:02
that that need to become suddenly very assertive. 1 can
36:06
be decisive. But the assertiveness and that
36:11
command and control thing, I think we're misled very often.
36:14
Let me let me try and make this a bit clearer.
36:16
So in the scenario you just proffered, you've got into the
36:19
room and you've effectively said I'm the leader.
36:21
Trust me, this is what you need to do.
36:23
And depending on what you look like, your sex, your race, any
36:27
number of things, your mode of communicating, people will judge
36:31
and make a decision. The reality is in project
36:34
delivery, if we're doing this well, by the time you get to
36:38
that point where you're making that decision, because sometimes
36:41
we do have to be decisive as the project leader.
36:44
Yeah, we do have to make a decision even though we're
36:46
surrounded by subject matter experts who are in their own
36:49
field more highly qualified than they do.
36:52
But it shouldn't be based really in in a well planned environment
36:57
such that that's the first time they've seen me.
36:59
And that's, you know, I'm making this decision and they don't
37:01
know anything about me. In other words, what I'm
37:03
fostering here is building up relationships with people so
37:07
that when you get into that scenario where you've got the
37:10
room full of people or not the room full of people, but you get
37:12
the idea. I'm working with the team, they
37:15
know me. I'm building up trust and
37:17
confidence in me over time. So when it comes to that
37:20
situation in the meeting where we've had all the information on
37:23
the table and I need. To make a decision, they know
37:28
that it's an informed decision because they know that I'm going
37:31
around and pulling this information from multiple
37:33
sources and coming to an informed view and building that
37:37
respect such that they would trust me.
37:39
Trust is at the heart of this, isn't it?
37:41
It's building that relationship of trust and mutual respect, and
37:45
I should be working on that so that by the time we get to that
37:48
point they shouldn't be the same level of potential conflict and
37:52
contention. So that's partly about building
37:55
a trusted reputation because you might be dealing with people you
38:00
haven't worked with. You might be constantly on new
38:02
teams. And so it's being conscious that
38:06
you need or being aware that you need to build a reputation where
38:10
you are trusted for, for, for, you know, doing a great job.
38:15
Paul, is there anything you wanted to add?
38:17
I think I think what what we might be kind of really pushing
38:22
into and I think great, great point, Emma.
38:24
It's it's the enabling people to succeed aspect of leadership.
38:31
And sometimes that is the thing that senior leaders do.
38:34
You know, what are people doing at the senior team in the board
38:38
is, and it might be always the hygiene factors of we've got
38:42
policies about stuff like this and we will monitor them and
38:46
make sure they happen happening. For example, we yeah, we have a
38:51
policy on gender equality and parity across the organisation.
39:00
So, you know, not just yet 50% men, 50% women, but that's
39:05
reflected in all of the layers of management because sometimes
39:09
we see the numbers and then we look at the senior leadership
39:12
team and it's all blokes. It's like, hang on, what's
39:16
what's going on here? Something's not working.
39:18
So, so it needs a policy, it needs to have measurement and
39:23
performance against it. And then I think there is that
39:27
it requires just that understanding and listening.
39:31
And some some of this is the empathetic engagement of going
39:35
what what's required to create that environment where people
39:40
can succeed on their ability. And the only judgement is on
39:44
your character, not no other characteristic.
39:48
And it's like, OK, and maybe this is where, again, back to
39:54
psychological purposefulness. Are you are you messaging in a
39:58
way that appeals to people? Yeah, I really want to come and
40:02
work there. Bright young, bright young thing
40:04
with options wants to come and work there.
40:07
A bright young thing with options can see that that's a
40:10
place to invest their career because people like them get on
40:14
in a place like this. And some of that is just, you
40:19
know, I've read the words, but I look at your org chart and if
40:23
it's got pictures, can I see people like me getting on?
40:30
I'll go and try somewhere else. And then I think the
40:32
psychological safety is also creating environments where
40:37
people can call out that stuff is not working for me because,
40:45
you know, listening, acting upon.
40:50
And. And some of that seems like it
40:52
should have been high hygiene factors.
40:55
Yeah. There should have been stuff
40:56
that was resolved in the age of my grandma, who was born at a
41:00
time before women had votes, you know, all the time.
41:03
My mum that went into the career just after equal pay was enacted
41:08
in law, you know, However, you know, as many people will know
41:14
and experience, the reality of that dream hasn't quite landed.
41:19
And there are some parts of the project profession where it
41:22
hasn't yet. Don't worry folks, because there
41:25
are other parts where it has and at that point, talent goes to
41:32
where it will flourish. Maybe, maybe there's a market
41:38
solution there. One thing that's intriguing me
41:43
is the age-old question A a leaders born or made because
41:50
right early on in our conversation you said you're
41:53
just, you're both kind of leading to the fact that you
41:55
just know someone's got that leadership thing.
42:00
So there was a big phase in leadership writing that it it
42:05
wasn't, you know, anyone can become a great leader if you
42:08
work hard enough. But I'm wondering if is that
42:10
true? Like, do you think that's there
42:13
is this kind of magic thing about a person that makes a
42:16
great leader or is it something that can be learnt?
42:22
I think emotional intelligence is at the core of affected
42:26
project leadership. And obviously a key necessity
42:28
for that is not being too egotistical and having empathy
42:32
and being able to progress along that journey and as you do and
42:36
develop the emotional intelligence.
42:38
So that the answer I'm putting is yes, for the majority of
42:40
people, it is possible to become good and effective leaders as we
42:45
develop our abilities in terms of building relationships,
42:49
building trust. I think there's three or four
42:51
steps in there, which is securing much mutual respect,
42:54
establishing rapport on the basis of rapport comes
42:57
collaboration. And if you happen to be in that
42:59
position, you know, then people you're building trust as well
43:02
and people will bestow and recognise you as a coached
43:07
mentor equals kind of the equals kind of leader.
43:10
You're the go to person and they defer and recognise that you
43:13
trust and respect them and building those relationships
43:17
over time and your communications.
43:19
When I'm with the team, I've got my idea about things.
43:21
But hey Emma, what do you think Paul, what do you think?
43:25
And being open about inviting people to contribute and not
43:29
knocking people down, but encouraging people to express
43:33
their views, that kind of thing. Thanks, Gordon.
43:38
Oh, what do you think? I'm.
43:40
I'm 97% on maid not born. 3% is just wondering about the role of
43:53
sociopaths. I know, I know.
43:57
Oh yes, there's been stuff written about this, hasn't
43:59
there? Yeah, they they do seem to
44:01
succeed in in many organisations, but I'm not
44:07
convinced they make great leaders.
44:09
But I'm even happy to debate that because sociopaths are
44:13
entirely self centred. And it may be that a bit like
44:17
the profit motive actually. If people pursue profit, social
44:22
good can often follow. And maybe if sociopaths pursue
44:27
their self-interest, maybe there's sort of, but but that's
44:33
the 3%. Hang on back to the 97%.
44:37
And I think some of that comes from just a clearer view on what
44:43
what is leadership? What do leaders do?
44:47
And then helping people find their way.
44:50
And This is why I think the incomplete leader idea was so
44:52
powerful, because you find a version of you work with your
44:58
strengths, work on your areas of development, work around your
45:04
resistant limitations. Be careful of the shadow you
45:07
cast. Dial down your overplayed
45:10
strengths. And in, in a good team setting,
45:16
they'll just constantly get some of that feedback, you know, or
45:20
if there's less of that. And over time, you know, we've
45:24
got better thinking and understanding of resilience,
45:27
physical, emotional, spiritual. And, you know, it turns out
45:33
that's OK to talk about in the workplace because it's, you
45:38
know, it's about helping people. And then there's also skill
45:41
sets. So a bit of my works on what the
45:45
sponsors do. So we've had the, we had the
45:48
manager leader debate. There's the the kind of leader
45:52
sponsor and a thing to also go into and it's like as we
45:56
understand that role, there's technical skill sets.
46:00
This is what you need to do. Here's how you can do it well.
46:04
Practise with feedback often delivers results.
46:09
And then I think you can also chop up leadership in so many
46:13
different ways. There's up and out bid ship,
46:16
there's down and in the systems leadership, there's team
46:20
leadership. If if there was 1 and maybe you
46:24
didn't quite mean it this way, Gordon, but if there's one just
46:27
slight kind of maybe little push back.
46:31
And this comes from the experience of just standing on a
46:35
touchline watching grassroots football for my for my little
46:39
lad from the age of four through to now, a kind of lanky 12.
46:46
In that team of kids. You can see people who are
46:51
really good at football and just, you know, they wake up,
46:55
they kick balls around when they get told to stop kicking balls
47:00
around. They read football magazines and
47:02
watch football on telly. It's like, oh, for goodness
47:04
sake, really good footballers. And also on the pitch, there are
47:10
people who are showing leadership skills, not
47:14
necessarily the best football players.
47:18
And it's like, you can see that at primary school and maybe we
47:24
see that in other parts of the playground.
47:28
And there's again, there's now some of that is that inherent
47:32
empathetic EQ. And at some point it's like, but
47:38
the way Brownies and Guides works, the way that other clubs
47:42
and groups work is about supporting flourishing.
47:47
And there's something. There you go.
47:49
Do you know we can do this? I think there's a whole other
47:53
subject area here that we could encroach into and
47:55
distinguishing. And it is a it's a the Pandora's
48:00
box is the distinct distinguishing between charisma
48:05
and leadership and charisma is that room that you walk into.
48:10
And this is the story I heard. You know, somebody walked in and
48:13
there are that's really and enraptured by and mesmerised by
48:17
it. And then suddenly looking around
48:19
and realising everybody had a look on their faces as if they
48:22
were mesmerised, literally mesmerised.
48:24
You know, they've been hypnotised and people have the
48:29
ability to do this. It doesn't necessarily make them
48:32
good leaders. In fact, when you go into that
48:34
mode of being subjected to somebody that's it's
48:37
charismatic, we tend to lose a lot of our cerebral function.
48:43
So can that be? Actually.
48:46
If there was one piece of advice that you'd want to pass on to
48:52
listeners around leadership? Bit of impossible question, I
48:57
know, but what? What might that one thing be?
49:02
I did a course. With John Hopkins University on
49:04
psychological emergency, psychological aid, that kind of
49:08
thing, psychological first aid. And one of the things they found
49:12
that the help with people after awful situations was being able
49:17
to tap into a memory of somebody in your own experience.
49:22
That like that example I gave at the beginning of Doctor Cecil
49:25
Todd, had inspired me from the inside out and to understand
49:31
leadership. Ask yourself which of my models
49:35
that I've got in my head of what good leadership look like
49:38
reflects that personal experience of somebody that
49:42
touched me on the inside, brought out the best in me,
49:45
helped me get out the box, got me out of a dark space.
49:48
Even in the darkest of days when I remember them, I have a smile.
49:52
And that on a personal level is very powerful both to inform
49:56
your road to to what good looks like, as well as questioning
49:59
some of those stereotypes that we get fed through the movies
50:03
and stories and all the rest of it.
50:05
Just challenge that a little bit and ask if that person was in
50:08
the room with you and they they were acting in that kind of
50:12
leadership, would you feel comfortable or uncomfortable?
50:14
So there's that thing. And then in a personal level,
50:17
who in your life, as from the stories we're told today, does
50:21
what does good look like? What does good leadership look
50:24
like in your experience? And learn from that.
50:28
Paul, what what would your piece of advice or source of wisdom
50:32
be? I'll, I'll offer the, the, the,
50:38
the leader is you and sort of go and, and sometimes there's a
50:44
what little, little old me like. Yeah.
50:47
And you know, there's there's no opportunity.
50:51
Just just start with yourself. I think we're often compelled
50:57
for reasons we cannot explain, to do things that we know are
51:01
not necessarily the best thing. It's kind of the it's the basis
51:04
of addictive behaviour. I know this isn't good for me.
51:07
I can't stop myself. For me, it's crisps, you know,
51:10
it's kind of like, and I use that as a small, a small light
51:14
hearted example. For other people, it's more
51:16
substantial things to the point where to use the crisps analogy,
51:21
I cannot buy crisps and I won't have them in the house because
51:25
I'll eat them. No, no bag has proved too big.
51:29
You know, it's like, wow. And so start with leadership of
51:34
self and then the really powerful idea of the incomplete
51:40
leader, because sometimes we, we get to leadership of, you know,
51:45
kind of some level of perfection, some level of
51:47
perfection at all times and all things.
51:50
And no leaders ever were they were all incomplete.
51:56
Occasionally if you were flawed, let's not go there.
51:59
They weren't great at everything.
52:01
And that's part it's going. So, So what am I good at?
52:05
You know, I'm actually quite good at these things.
52:08
Great. Are there things you can work
52:10
on? You know, my, my natural kind of
52:15
personality comes in useful for these things and I can work on
52:19
that. And the incomplete nurse is and
52:23
what is it I need to work around often with the help of others.
52:27
So start with yourself and then that's, that's really
52:31
contagious. You you can then bring that into
52:35
domestic family settings into work into voluntary settings,
52:39
into social settings and just go.
52:42
Do you know I'm not too Shelby at this.
52:47
And and by doing that, they start to then become role modest
52:52
for others and then it really cascades.
52:54
I loved your point, Gordon, because, you know, the
52:58
expectation could be super high. So maybe have a few people in
53:01
mind again, people that you've known, people that you've
53:03
experienced. For me, my grandma's somebody
53:09
that just think, wow, you know, she she was from really modest
53:14
backgrounds and with just for grandma.
53:18
But sometimes, you know, I wonder what she would have done
53:22
usually helps guide us in the right direction.
53:26
And one of her great kind of contributions to to me in life
53:30
is just being kind. Start, OK, start with yourself.
53:35
Thank you. It just leaves me to thank both
53:38
of you for joining us. Don't forget to look out for
53:43
more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your
53:46
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54:07
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