Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / AI Chatbots & Social Isolation

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AI Chatbots & Social Isolation · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: Hello, this is The Happy Family's podcast. So glad you
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  Speaker 1: joined us today. Your child has a new confidant. It's
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  Speaker 1: endlessly patient, never judges, and it's available at three am.
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  Speaker 1: Millions of people are now turning to AI chatbots for
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  Speaker 1: emotional support, and brand new research has tracked what happens
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  Speaker 1: to their loneliness over a full year. The results should
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  Speaker 1: give every parent pause. That's today on The Happy Family's podcast,
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  Speaker 1: Doctor's Desk. Stay with us. Welcome to The Happy Family's podcast,
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  Speaker 1: Real Parenting Solutions every Day, Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
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  Speaker 1: We are the parents of six children, Justin and Kylie Kilson,
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  Speaker 1: and every Thursday in the pod the Doctor's Desk, where
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  Speaker 1: we take a fresh piece of research, hot off the
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  Speaker 1: press and ask the only question that matters on this podcast,
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  Speaker 1: what does this mean for my family? For my children?
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  Speaker 1: How do I use the latest research to guide my
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  Speaker 1: family successfully? Today's paper comes from Psychological Science. It's one
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  Speaker 1: of the most prestigious journals in the field. It was
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  Speaker 1: published just weeks ago and it's about what happens when
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  Speaker 1: people start using AI chat bots the way they'd use
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  Speaker 1: a friend.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so before we get into the study, You're gonna
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  Speaker 2: set the scene for me. People are using AI as
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  Speaker 2: a friend, like a replacement for a friend.
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  Speaker 1: Not just as a friend, as a confidante, as a
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  Speaker 1: trusted fellow traveler. In fact, I think that you use
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  Speaker 1: it in that way sometimes yourself, and I know I
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  Speaker 1: have as well. I'm struggling with this theme. What do
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  Speaker 1: you think I should do?
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  Speaker 2: So before we get into the nitty gritty of the study, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I'm trying to kind of just, I guess, tease this
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  Speaker 2: out a little bit. I've used chat to ask them
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  Speaker 2: tricky questions when I'm struggling to kind of work out
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  Speaker 2: which way to go and what's the problem.
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  Speaker 1: So I get emails from people all the time. I
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  Speaker 1: read articles online from people all the time who have
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  Speaker 1: used AI. Like it's so obvious. The tells are clear.
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  Speaker 1: The grammar, even the punctuation tells you that AI is
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  Speaker 1: using being used for all this sort of stuff. And
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  Speaker 1: people are. They're using it to plan their whole as
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  Speaker 1: to plan their dinner, but they're also asking it for
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  Speaker 1: advice on life decisions. They're using it to debrief about
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  Speaker 1: their day. They're sharing feelings of deep personal feelings with AI.
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  Speaker 1: And to be fair, of the technology. Some short term
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  Speaker 1: research suggests that it can work sort of. I'll so
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  Speaker 1: sort of because studies have found that AI responses can
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  Speaker 1: make people feel heard and supported, and they are sometimes
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  Speaker 1: there's a study published just last week. They're sometimes rated
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  Speaker 1: as more empathic than human response.
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  Speaker 2: No, I'm serious, no, and I feel that I feel
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  Speaker 2: that when I've been dealing with something really really tricky.
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  Speaker 3: I'm a talker, Yes, I love.
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  Speaker 2: Sharing with my friends, but there are some things that
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  Speaker 2: just feel so heavy. Number one, I can't possibly bear
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  Speaker 2: the idea that I would place that on somebody else's shoulders.
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  Speaker 2: And sometimes there are things that you just wish that
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  Speaker 2: nobody would ever know.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, but when you tell chat open AI, when you
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  Speaker 1: tell claud Anthropic, when you tell rock el Musk, like
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  Speaker 1: when you tell them, you're actually telling this huge data
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  Speaker 1: center where oh my goodness, like you're just putting it
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  Speaker 1: out there. This is telling anyone that that information is
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  Speaker 1: one day sold to And I believe that one day
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  Speaker 1: these big so these big AI companies are going to
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  Speaker 1: sell our personal data. You're telling them everything about yourself.
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  Speaker 1: Like it's just it's monstrous. Anyway, I wanted to highlight
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  Speaker 1: even though it's not This study, a study that I
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  Speaker 1: read about just in the last week or so brand
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  Speaker 1: New showed that when people conferred with AI, they found
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  Speaker 1: their conversations with real people less satisfying, less fulfilling, less empathic.
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  Speaker 1: Because the AI is so sycophantic, and as you said,
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  Speaker 1: it listens, it hears you. You get to offload, and
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  Speaker 1: it does it in some ways better than a human.
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  Speaker 1: It's never distracted, that never makes it about itself. It
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  Speaker 1: never stops and checks its phone mid conversation.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe I'm just abnormal because I can see the benefit
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  Speaker 2: of using it from time to time, but it's never
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  Speaker 2: felt like a replacement the conversations that I would have
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  Speaker 2: with it. I would still have with my friends nine
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  Speaker 2: times out of ten.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, but a lot of people aren't, I know.
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  Speaker 2: That's why I'm saying. I think that maybe I'm just
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  Speaker 2: a little bit different. Every time I would choose human
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  Speaker 2: contact over a chatbot, like every time.
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  Speaker 1: So that's where this study gets really interesting. Because while
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  Speaker 1: I'm talking about short term outcomes, and that's kind of
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  Speaker 1: what we've been discussing with these studies that I've just
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  Speaker 1: read recently, this specific research question looked at people leaning
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  Speaker 1: on a chatbot for companionship and how it affects their
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  Speaker 1: loneliness in the long run. So one of my favorite researchers,
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  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Dunn from the University of British Columbia, tested it.
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  Speaker 1: She's one of the world's leading happiness researchers. So Serious
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  Speaker 1: lab doing really, really good research, and they followed more
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  Speaker 1: than two thousand adults across the UK, the US, Canada
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  Speaker 1: and Australia for twelve months. They did four surveys won
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  Speaker 1: every four months, and each time people reported how often
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  Speaker 1: they'd used a chatbot for social purposes over the previous
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  Speaker 1: four months, things like advice on whether to take promotion
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  Speaker 1: or just chatting about the day. And they also reported
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  Speaker 1: major life stresses like maybe a divorce or moving house,
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  Speaker 1: or how lonely they've been feeling.
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  Speaker 2: So how many people were actually doing this?
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  Speaker 1: So just over quarter had used a chatbot socially at
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  Speaker 1: least a few times in the previous four months. That's
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  Speaker 1: a quarter of ordinary adults, quarter of the population. And
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  Speaker 1: this has gone completely mainstream. I'd say that numbers are
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  Speaker 1: even higher now because it takes a while to get
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  Speaker 1: these articles published.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm curious, what did twelve months of data actually show.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm going to focus on two things, and the
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  Speaker 1: direction of the findings matters here. Finding one, people who
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  Speaker 1: reported feeling more emotionally isolated in once went on to
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  Speaker 1: use AI for social purposes more often over the next
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  Speaker 1: four months. So loneliness came first. Lonely people seek out chatbots,
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  Speaker 1: which makes complete sense, and it ties in with what
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  Speaker 1: you were saying before. You're not a lonely person. You've
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  Speaker 1: got wonderful networks, you've got a great social support network,
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  Speaker 1: and as a result, you're less likely to go to
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  Speaker 1: AI because you're not lonely. But lonely people they look around,
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  Speaker 1: they say who can I say this to? Who can
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  Speaker 1: I share this with? Who can I lean on? And
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  Speaker 1: they go to AI because it's available and it's warm,
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  Speaker 1: and it never rejects you.
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  Speaker 2: So you've acknowledged that AI for the most part, is
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  Speaker 2: very affirming, right, there's no interruptions, It tells you essentially
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  Speaker 2: what you want to hear.
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  Speaker 1: It's kind of an echo chamber.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So for a lonely person, is that not
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  Speaker 2: a good thing.
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  Speaker 1: So here's the heart of the paper. This is finding too,
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  Speaker 1: people who started using chatbots more for social reasons went
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  Speaker 1: on to feel more emotionally isolated four months later, not
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  Speaker 1: less lonely, more lonely.
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  Speaker 2: So is that because you almost become dissatisfied with anybody
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  Speaker 2: else in the room because they're not the echo chain,
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  Speaker 2: but that you want that. The feedback that they provide
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  Speaker 2: is often not as sympathetic, not empathetic, not understanding.
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  Speaker 1: Well, sometimes you talk to a friend or a parent
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  Speaker 1: or a spouse and they challenge you rather than saying
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  Speaker 1: you're right to feel this way right, And when they
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  Speaker 1: challenge you if you're having a hard time, that doesn't
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  Speaker 1: necessarily feel nice. Of course, challenges bring growth, They give
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  Speaker 1: you new insights, and the AI often won't do that.
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  Speaker 1: But that's what the research is basically described. They've essentially
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  Speaker 1: said loneliness might spur people to seek companionship through chatbots,
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  Speaker 1: and that use of the AI chatbot over time makes
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  Speaker 1: the loveliness worse, like it becomes this reinforcing vicious cycle.
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  Speaker 1: You reach for the thing that feels like connection, and
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  Speaker 1: it deepens the ache that you're trying to soothe with
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  Speaker 1: a false, hollow, fake sense of connection.
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  Speaker 2: I find this conversation quite curious because when I have
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  Speaker 2: used it to kind of help me work through something.
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  Speaker 2: What I've actually found is while it does affirm that
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  Speaker 2: what I'm dealing with is hard, more times than not,
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  Speaker 2: maybe it's just the way I use it, it actually asks me.
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  Speaker 1: What I want to do about it so better AI
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  Speaker 1: is programmed to start to do that. But no matter
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  Speaker 1: what you respond with, it will usually tell you that
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  Speaker 1: that's a good idea.
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  Speaker 3: I know, but it's.
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  Speaker 2: Got me thinking, like, it's not telling me what to do.
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  Speaker 2: It's not kind of suggesting that there's only one way
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  Speaker 2: out of this or there's only one way to think
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  Speaker 2: about this. And when I kind of will suggest maybe
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  Speaker 2: this is how I'm feeling about going that way, it
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  Speaker 2: often gives me kind of pizing ideas like you could
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  Speaker 2: go that way, but just think about blah blah blah,
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  Speaker 2: or you could go this way.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, after the break, let's talk about what this means
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  Speaker 1: for loneliness and also what it means for our kids.
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  Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast. Stay with this, We're back.
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  Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast. Kylie, Let's talk about
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  Speaker 1: loneliness and.
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  Speaker 3: Promise me you're going to tell me why this is bad.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So, basically the researcher's main explanation here is that
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  Speaker 1: it's about substitution. So when a lonely person turns to
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  Speaker 1: a chatbot instead of a human, they get support that
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  Speaker 1: simply isn't as nourishing. It's just not going to challenge
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  Speaker 1: you as much. And the sneakier part, the most challenging part.
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  Speaker 1: I kind of hinted at it before when I said,
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  Speaker 1: you don't get pushback from the AI like you get
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  Speaker 1: from a real person. AI is just easy. There's no awkwardness,
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  Speaker 1: there's no risk. Even when it does disagree with you,
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  Speaker 1: it doesn't actually feel like it's disagreeing.
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  Speaker 3: With you because it does it so nicely. That's right.
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  Speaker 1: So over time, human interaction starts feeling effortful and slightly
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  Speaker 1: unappealing by comparison, like you get the snack instead of
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  Speaker 1: the meal, and then you lose your appetite for the
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  Speaker 1: mill because you had the snack.
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  Speaker 2: So the study was done with adults. What do we
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  Speaker 2: know about chat pots and our kids?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is the part where I want every
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  Speaker 1: mary it listen very very closely. They did not look
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  Speaker 1: at children in the Elizabeth dunnstudy. This was, as you said,
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  Speaker 1: an eighteen plus cohort, but Common Sense Media ran a
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  Speaker 1: nationally representative survey of teens just last year. Seventy two
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  Speaker 1: percent had used an AI companion at least once, more
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  Speaker 1: than fifty percent used them regularly, thirteen percent used them daily.
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  Speaker 1: I've seen some preliminary research suggesting that those numbers have
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  Speaker 1: gone up since then. That was twelve months ago. Even
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  Speaker 1: more concerning a third of teens, we're talking thirty plus
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  Speaker 1: percent of teens have chosen to talk to an AI
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  Speaker 1: instead of a real person about something serious or something important,
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  Speaker 1: and thirty one percent said their AI conversations were as
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  Speaker 1: satisfying or more satisfying than conversations with real friends.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so this is a little bit scary if
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  Speaker 2: you go back, you said.
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  Speaker 3: A third yep, a third third.
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  Speaker 2: Are taking their big stuff to a bot, right instead
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  Speaker 2: of to an adult, another trusted person.
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  Speaker 1: So this is my developmental worry. Adolescence is it's where
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  Speaker 1: you really figure out relationships. It's where you you've moved
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  Speaker 1: beyond the basics, but you're learning how to read faces,
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  Speaker 1: You're learning how to tolerate disagreement, how to repair ruptures
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  Speaker 1: from a fight, how to sit in an awkward silence,
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  Speaker 1: and that learning only happens through friction, and AI is
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  Speaker 1: friction free. It's endlessly agreeable, it's beautifully infinitely patient, It's
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  Speaker 1: always on your side, and that's precisely what makes it
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  Speaker 1: appealing and precisely what makes it useless as practice for
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  Speaker 1: what a real relationship is like. And the younger the team,
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  Speaker 1: the more they trust in it. Like thirteen and fourteen
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  Speaker 1: year olds were infinitely significantly more likely to trust AI
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  Speaker 1: than teens.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'm just going to put it out there. If
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  Speaker 2: it wasn't for AI, this health journey I've been on
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  Speaker 2: might have collapsed.
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  Speaker 3: In the first two weeks.
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  Speaker 2: So I needed the affirming I needed the you're doing
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  Speaker 2: a great job pat on the shoulder every other week
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  Speaker 2: when I was like.
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  Speaker 1: This is not working. Yeah, yeah, fair.
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  Speaker 3: So I can I.
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  Speaker 2: Can obviously see there is some significant benefits to being
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  Speaker 2: able to have a very responsive, very positively affirming.
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  Speaker 3: Friend. Friend.
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  Speaker 1: You were going to say that.
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  Speaker 2: But I can. I can also see it's some really
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  Speaker 2: really scary and big danger traps, especially for our children.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that that's where I kind of put
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  Speaker 2: that cave it in. I think I am a little
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  Speaker 2: bit kind of just a little bit different to what
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  Speaker 2: the average person would be using it for. But maybe
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  Speaker 2: I'm not. Maybe I'm completely deluded.
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  Speaker 3: No I think.
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  Speaker 1: I mean this study show that about a quarter of adults,
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  Speaker 1: and we know the numbers higher than that, but about
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  Speaker 1: a quarter of adults we're using it for these things.
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  Speaker 1: What that shows is that most people are not lonely.
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  Speaker 1: Remember the arrow, direction of the arrow. This is the
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  Speaker 1: critical thing. It starts with loneliness. Lonely people go looking
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  Speaker 1: for chatbots. So if you discover that your team is
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  Speaker 1: pouring their heart out into the AI, the AI is
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  Speaker 1: the smoke, but the loneliness is the fire. Yeah yeah, right,
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  Speaker 1: So punishing the smoke, ripping the AI out of the
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  Speaker 1: just saying you're never going to use it again, that
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  Speaker 1: does nothing for the fire. So four things. First, get curious,
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  Speaker 1: not furious. I talk about that all the time. Heye,
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  Speaker 1: lots of lots of kids are chatting with AI these days.
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  Speaker 1: Do you ever show me how it works? So no lecturing,
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  Speaker 1: just interest stepping in, exploring, not exploding, Understanding not reprimanding.
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  Speaker 3: So you want to be able to understand what they're
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  Speaker 3: using it for.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So that's actually the second thing. Massive difference
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  Speaker 1: world of difference between help me with my chemistry assignment
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  Speaker 1: and you're the only one who understands me. Right, a
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  Speaker 1: totally different way of using the AI. Using the tool
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  Speaker 1: is fine. Well, maybe the chemistry teacher might have a
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  Speaker 1: problem with using the tool like that, but using it
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  Speaker 1: for a companion rather than an assistant, especially when it's
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: about serious personal stuff. I think that's the cue for
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: every parent to step in gently, curiously and just see
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  Speaker 1: what's going on there. Third, i'd be watching for displacement.
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  Speaker 1: So if they're choosing the chatbot over actual friends, if
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  Speaker 1: they're secret about using the chatbot, if they're getting distressed
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  Speaker 1: when they can't access it, if they're in real life
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  Speaker 1: experiences are shrinking, they're not making plans to get out
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  Speaker 1: to me, they're the central flags.
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  Speaker 3: You said there was four.
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  Speaker 1: Oh sorry I did. Yeah, remember before I talked about
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  Speaker 1: you have the snack and then you don't feel like
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: the meal. So if loneliness is driving the cycle, the
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  Speaker 1: antidote is real belonging in real life, and that's something
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: that parents can actually build, right, So prioritize sleepovers and
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  Speaker 1: sport and youth groups and part time jobs and dinner
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  Speaker 1: table conversations without screens, because every time your child is
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: involved in a genuine, friction filled human interaction, that's building
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  Speaker 1: an antidote. It's building protection against the loneliness. And I
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  Speaker 1: guess one last thing. This is research that's been done
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  Speaker 1: on adults. It's still fairly early research. The conclusion from
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: the research is really interesting. If you focus only on
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: short term benefits of chatbot chats, you might hide more
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: pernicious long term effects. Okay, if you and I have
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: highlighted really clearly that if you're doing fine, AI is
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: probably going to be fine. It's just if you're not
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: doing fine, AI can become a problem.
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  Speaker 3: I just had another thought.
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  Speaker 2: If it wasn't for AI, we would not have found
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  Speaker 2: the reception venue for our daughter's wedding.
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  Speaker 1: So we're not anti AI. We're not anti AI. We
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: just want you to be careful and make sure that
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  Speaker 1: loneliness isn't feeding the beast.
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  Speaker 2: So when I think about this conversation, it's it's just
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  Speaker 2: an extension of social media. The difference is a chatbot
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  Speaker 2: is going to be more affirming than social media, but
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: there's messaging that our kids are getting on any form
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  Speaker 2: of social media or AI is not helpful. If it's
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: a replacement for physical contact.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, a chatbot can consimulate a friend, but it
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  Speaker 1: can't be one.
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  Speaker 2: And you might have one hundred followers, but if you're
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  Speaker 2: not having you know, kind of face to face time
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  Speaker 2: with people.
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  Speaker 3: Then it's hollow.
• 16:28
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