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The SAD Episode · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and it's a stuff you
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: should know. Hoe down to start the new year. Chuck's
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: still wearing his Novelty twenty twenty six glasses that he
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: got sponsored by Nivea.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: That.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: I believe what you were saying was Ryan Seacrest himself
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: handed him to you while you were at Times Square.
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: Right, No, not handed, he put them on my face hands.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Whoa is it? Because you guys are co workers?
• 0:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he's iheartedn't he?
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah? But I think like half of the US is
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: a coworker of his, got so many jobs.
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you're probably right. Well, if you haven't guessed listening, audience,
• 0:53
  Speaker 4: this is our first recording of the new year. Yes,
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: I'm probably gonna be a little rusty. And can I
• 1:03
  Speaker 4: just give a quick shout out to a couple of things?
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: Please too, great as well. Josh knows all this stuff
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: because we communicate outside of work, believe it or not,
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: because we're fans. But I went to you know, New
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: York City, Emily and I do our little Broadway weekend
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: in New York over Christmas every year and this year,
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: I just want to say thanks to a couple of people,
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: most notably Natasha Hodgson of Operation Mincemeat fame, because she
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: is in the show and put together the show and
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: stuff you should Know, and she's been in magazines as
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: people alerted as giving stuff you should Know credit as
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: our episode inspiring that show, and was kind enough to
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: give us a couple of tickets to go see it,
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: and it was fantastic. I highly recommend it.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: I know I was loath to miss it. That sucked.
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: I wish you could have been there, But it's you know,
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: it's still playing, so maybe you can check it out.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I was especially upset when you said that she
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: gave you She came out in the audience in the
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: middle of the show and gave you like a bouquet
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: of roses.
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: No, no, no, the audience.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Lifted you up on their shoulders.
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: No, that was that was That didn't happen. Also went
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: to Barston Trolley as I like to do before Broadway.
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: Barston Trolley is where I go before Broadway shows.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Well, what is it?
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: It's a bar but it's it's sort of a I mean,
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: you can just make reservations a week out. I think
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: I've mentioned this before. It's it's sort of a secret
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: place in that it doesn't have a sign or it's
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: not wild publicize, but you know, seven days out from
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: when you want to go, you can call them up.
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: They specialize in getting people in and out of their
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: pre and post Broadway, and you know sometimes you can
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: see Broadway performers there on the down low.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Nice. I would have no idea that one could be
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: sitting next to me and I wouldn't even know.
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: Well, you might if it's if it's a famous you know,
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: like Brian Cranston was sitting there. No, but he could be.
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: I saw years ago, I saw Dexter in there. What's
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: his name?
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Dexter's good enough.
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah. This year I saw the lady from Lost. Although
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: I don't think she's on Broadway, she was in there.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: But all this to say big thanks to Jason who
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: helps take care of Barton Trolley and Joe's on Broadway.
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: He came over on his night off just to say
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: hi and was just a total sweetheart of a guy.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: What a trip.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: And then finally I want to thank Santa Santa Claus
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: in the Radio City Music Hall Show. I surprised Emily
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: by going to the Christmas show this year for the
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: first time.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I remember Santa rode In.
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: Santa rode In and although he was not in the
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: performance we went to. Santa Adam was very kindness in
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: a Christmas video to Ruby. Have you been to the show?
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: No, I'm just some bumpkin who stays at home all
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: the time. Apparently, dude, you and you me.
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: Have to go to the Radio City Music or Christmas Spectacular.
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: It is one of the delights of my life. The
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: Rockets was one of the most impressive, most amazing live
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: shows of any kind of ever seen. They were incredible.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Wow, okay, I'll go yeah, and it's.
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: You know you love you guys, love your Christmas cheer
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: and it really you can't. Even the biggest grinchy curmudgeon
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: wouldn't help but get in the mood, even at the
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: ten am show. But the Rockets were amazing and Santa
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: said that he turned them onto our listener mail and
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: the Rockets episode and some of the now current Rockets
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: are listening. Oh cool, So shout out to you Rockets.
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: Keep on kicking.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Hello, Rockettes. We did a whole show on the rockets,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: didn't we did? Yeah, all right, that was amazing. Chuck.
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: You you were sick over the holidays, Yeah.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: It really stunk. I got this cold that apparently there's
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: like a two week cold going around. Oh no, that
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: light and it was just like every day I would
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: add a new symptom, and it was I could do
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: stuff during the day, but I was just sick the
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: whole time and it was so sorry. It was rough. Yeah,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: some thanks for that, I appreciate it. But we still
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: had a great Christmas. Well, Momo knows how to open presents,
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: so she opened presents on Christmas mornings. She was so happy.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: Paul teeth quite a both. Okay, yeah, she's a pro.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: She knows what she's doing. She got some new rabbit treats,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: so she laid on her back and rolled on those
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: and she had a great Christmas morning.
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: So that's wonderful.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: It was a good Christmas. After all. We hung out
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: with friends on Christmas Eve, and our friends Laurel and
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: Braden and their kids, Elliott and Bear, so we got
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: to hang out with Yeah you do, you've met them
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: twenty times. So we got to hang out with little kids.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: On Christmas even, man, that will put you in the
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: Christmas spirit when you don't have kids of your own.
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah. How old are those kids?
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: They're like eight and six, I think, so that's fine
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: prime age.
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, right in the zone.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So thank you though for your sympathy over my sicknesses.
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I felt bad.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: One thing I don't have, chuck, which I'm really happy
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I don't have, because it's awful, is sad.
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: No sads for you.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: I don't have sad. Do you have sad?
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: No, I don't have sad. You know, we're talking about
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: seasonal effective disorder, and just right off the bat, we
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: should point out, because I was about to say occasionally
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: I get the winter blues, that this is not that
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: this is a real it's legitimate depression and comorbid with
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: stuff like bipolar disorder, and we're going to talk all
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: about it. But it's not just you know, oh I
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: get a little blue in the winter sometimes when it's
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: you know, gloomy.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: No, but it's tied to that. Yes, it's just it
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: seems to be an extreme version of that. But you're right,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: it's not. It's nothing light, it's classified. I believe in
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: the DSM is a major depressive disorder. Yeah, with a
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: seasonal pattern. I think that's the clinical name for seasonal
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: effective disorder. And there are people out there, I think
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: something like five percent of people. I don't I believe
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: that's an American statistic. Yeah, that's America get the like
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: real deal seasonal effective disorder where they have major depressive
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: symptoms during the winter months. But something like ten percent
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: or maybe even higher than that. In the United States,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: people get what's called sub syndromeal seasonal effective disorder, so
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: where you don't have it where it could be considered
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: major depression. But it's definitely worse than the holiday blues.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: And the weird thing about this, although it's not so
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: weird once we explain it. It is seasonal. It's tied
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: to winter, and it seems that they figure or summer,
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: which that one's just mind blowing to me.
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like they have it figured out. They
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: have this, they have it explained. So this is one
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: of my favorite episodes where it's like, here's how the
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: human body works, here's what's messed up with this when
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: we're talking about this. I love episodes like that.
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, not a lot of mystery, big thanks to Olivia
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: for getting the new year off to a great start
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: with another banger.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah you're here.
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we should say that this is something that hasn't
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: been officially I mean, it's obviously been around since you know,
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: time began, because as we'll see, it's tied to seasons
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: and especially light and how much light you're getting. So
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: that's always been a thing, but it hasn't been officially
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: diagnosed as a thing for that long. It was in
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: nineteen eighty four when there was a paper by researchers
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: at the National Institutes of Health. A particularly guy named
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: Norman Rosenthal got together and they discussed these almost thirty
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: I have a feeling. One dropped out. So there were
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: twenty nine patients. Most of them had bipolar disorder, and
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: they all had what we now know is as sad.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that thirtieth one when they like one weekend, they're
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: like how do you feel? And they're like fine, and
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: they're like you're cut, you can go here.
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: So yeah, bipolar disorders, we'll see, like really kind of
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: ties into this. It seems to be like also seasonal
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: in some weird way too. But pretty quickly after that
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four paper, the DSM went all in three
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: years later, the DSM three R, as we all know
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: our stands for revised or rocking, that came out in
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, and it was like, now, it was
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: a diagnosis, but it was used as a modifier as
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: we saw a major depressive disorder with a seasonal pattern.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: So it wasn't its own thing. It was just a
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: subtype essentially of an existing depressive disorder. That's kind of
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: how they first had it.
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, because it's seasonal, the most common
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: kind of sad that we think about, Like we mentioned,
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: it is very serious thing, and it starts off in
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: the fall, maybe early winter, and it kind of depends
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: on where you are is we'll see, although not all intuitively,
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: there's a third act reveal that might surprise some people.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: It generally subsides in the spring. But I did mention
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: that that odd spring and summer variety that hasn't been
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: studied much. It's very very limited. About point five percent
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: of the population has this opposite pattern. But it is
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: a diagnosable mood disruption. It just happens in the spring
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: and summer, and it's tied more to sort of like
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: oppressive heat, and maybe unsurprisingly, some of the things they
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: recommend for that, which again we're going to cover a
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: little more later, is stuff like maybe stay inside, dim
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: the lights, that kind of thing.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And the thing that gets me about the summer
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: version that much rareer one is that the symptoms are
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: almost in some cases opposite the symptoms of winter. So
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: usually when you first start getting SAD, it's around young
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: adulthood ages eighteen to thirty, I think, And most people
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: who get it get it most years, but you don't
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: necessarily have it every year. Women are four times likelier
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: than men to have it, And if you have an
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: existing mood disorder, you're much likelier to suffer from seasonal
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: effective disorder because it's almost like it takes your existing
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: mood disorder, say bipolar two, and just builds on it.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: There's an extra like environmental punch to it that really
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: kind of kicks it into high gear.
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that four times more common in women's that's
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: really substantial, And we'll get into that. It seems to
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: be tied to estrogen, but we'll dig into that a
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: little bit more in a bit. But having family members,
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: they think there's some genetic component to it. If you
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: have relatives that have depression or any kind of mental
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: health disorder, it's you know, obviously it doesn't mean you will,
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: but that could mean you might. I guess that's the
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: way doctors say it.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you might got it.
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: And not surprisingly, you're more likely to develop SAD if
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: you live in places in the far you know, away
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: from the equator, far north or south, where there's gonna
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: be less sunlight, or maybe you know, in places like
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: Seattle where there's just more gray days than others.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was surprised I couldn't find the other eight,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: the first eight, but Seattle was the ninth most affected
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: city with seasonal effective disorder. I would have thought it'd
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: be higher than that. I could not find the first eight,
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: So I'm like, does this list really exist or was
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: this just like a post intelligence or made up article?
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: And do they do they tie in things like or
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: do they list things like Tacoma, like neighboring neighboring towns?
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: Does that count as a different place?
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: I wonder that's a great question. What about Tacoma?
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: Well, I just wondered, Tacoma's very lovely, but maybe Seattle
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: might be a little more lively. Yeah, no, I could
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: get in trouble.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: No, No, everybody knows about Tacoma. Okay, okay, it's been
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: a long time since we picked down a particular city.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: Oh, I don't want to put to coma owner sites.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, we won't because.
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: You know, you can't spell. You can't spell seat tack
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: without tack.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: That's right. So what happens when you experience sad seasonal
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: effective disorder? I mean most people can kind of come
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: up with this idea of like what depression symptoms seem like,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: but there's specific ones that emerge with seasonal effective disorder.
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you know generally what you will see
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: like with most depression listlessness obviously, sadness, interest and activities
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: that you might normally like you don't like as much.
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: You may have a hard time concentrating suicidal thoughts if
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: it gets really bad, hopelessness, maybe guilt sometimes, and then
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: some physical symptoms like just a weight like in your
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: limbs sometimes.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like a lethargy, a fatigue and those. Yeah, that's
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: kind of common among depression in general. But winter sad
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: has some extra symptoms like over sleeping or just sleeping
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: too much or more than you normally would craving carbs,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: overeating weight gain, and then that fatigue, the low energy
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: and tiredness and all of those things too create like
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: a feedback loop where you know, if you're depressed and
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: you start gaining weight and that kind of thing bothers you,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: you're going to be even more depressed because you just
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: started gaining weight, in which case, if you're an emotional eater,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: you might go eat more carbs and gain more weight
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: and there, you know, it just kind of goes on.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: So that's one of the difficult things about it is
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: it's not just like I'm depressed. It's I'm depressed and
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: now everything is set up because of this winter season
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: for me to just keep getting more and more depressed
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: while winter's going on.
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and if you're sitting there thinking like, oh, man,
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: like in the wintertime, I tend to sleep later, and
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: I tend to eat and maybe drink a little more
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: and gain some weight and I'm a little more tired.
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: Those are also That's why sad is such a sort
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: of a unique thing, because that also just describes a
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: lot of people in the winter. But there is a difference,
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: and you know we're gonna be pointing out those differences.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: You mentioned summer was unusual because the summer sads because
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: it's very much opposite. And that goes for the symptoms
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: as well, because instead of sleeping in, you might have
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: trouble sleeping, instead of eating too much, you might have
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: a low appetite, you might lose weight, you might be
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: anxious and agitated and irritable. Headaches is another one for
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: summer sad.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like winter said you go inward and are
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: kind of closed off, and with summer said, you go outward,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: but it's not in any like. That doesn't mean you're
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: just more sociable. It means like you're more agro potentially
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: than you would be with like winter sad. So yeah,
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: it is they're just kind of opposite, and yet they
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: tie into, like you were saying, how people already are
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: like you go out more in the summertime, you stay
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: in more in the winter time. So what seems to
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: be the case with seasonal effective disorder is that it
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: is a hyper or hypo version of a normal human
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: biological imperative that we have learned as a society to
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: try to ignore, and for some people ignoring it is
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: not really an option because it's so pronounced.
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and escapable. Yeah. So there are basically four things.
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: And like I said, if you feel like, oh man,
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: I kind of feel those things in the winter too,
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: listen to these four things because this is when you
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: should see a medical professional as if one. If these
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: feelings persist for days and days in a row, it's
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: not like I just had a couple of rough days
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: when it was like really rainy and cold. If you're sleeping,
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: appetite patterns like really change is the second one if
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: you're coping with drugs and alcohol, that's a big red flag.
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: And then the fourth one if you feel hopeless or
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: suicidal for sure, And I think as far as diagnosis goes,
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: you have to I think it has to be for
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: at least two years in a row. Even though you
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: did say you don't necessarily have it all years, you
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: at least have to have it two years in a
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: row at some point.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And because it is essentially if you look at
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: the winter sad in summer sad, they're basically two ends
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: of a spectrum mania and depression. Like people with bipolar
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: two are definitely more susceptible to sad and they might
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: experience both types of seasonal although again just statistically speaking,
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: they're much more likely to just experience the winter sad.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. And if you do see a professional,
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: they're probably gonna ask you a lot of questions. You
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: might even fill out an official questionnaire. There's no like
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: blood test or brain scan or anything like like you know,
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: other types of Russian that's the case as well, but
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: you might get they might rule things out. They might
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: do like a thyroid screening or you know, some other
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: things just to make sure it's not something like physical
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: going on.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Right, So that's sad everybody, And I think we should
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: talk about where this whole thing comes from. They think,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: after a break, chuck our first break of twenty twenty six,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: let's make it a big one.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: You still got it, You still got it?
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: All right?
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: Lately I've been learning some stop about insomnia or aluminia.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: How about the one on border like disorder that or
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: yer order that one before?
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: But it was so nice hoarded why except everybody listen,
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: stop shot.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Stop stop stop.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: All right, So kind of like we were talking, it's
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: it's kind of hard to diagnose this. Uh as far
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: as when you should go to a doctor, because a
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: lot of people are just like this in the winter,
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: and you're also sort of fighting. I think you kind
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: of hinted at it like a natural human intuition in
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: a lot of ways, because if you go back in
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: time to the time where Tuck Tuck was roaming the
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: earth in the winter, they slowed down and they conserved
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: energy because food wasn't around and it was cold, so
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: they they bunkered down. And there are some interesting theories
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: around that, right.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. They think it's possible that Neanderthals had like a
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: real type of hibernation period in the winter now, you know,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: like a bear necessarily, but something more pronounced than humans,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: and that interbreeding with Neanderthals may have produced seasonal effective
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: disorder in some people.
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: Yea's pretty cool when Homo sapiens started hugging and kissing Neanderthals.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: That's right. Like in what was it? Quest for Fire?
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: Oh man, there was some real realizations in that movie.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: It was a I mean, what an interesting movie though,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, Ron Pearlman, Yeah he really, he's a
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: good cave man.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: By the way, did a minute ago did I say
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: bunker down? M I meant to say hunker down? Is
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: bunker down even a thing.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: I feel like it should be more than hunkered down.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: It makes more sense. Okay, I didn't even know I
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: heard you and made like I grasped that you said
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: bunker down, right, But it's so natural that it didn't
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: even seem wrong.
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And our Georgia bulldogs at what they say for
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: them is hunker down, you harried dogs. I'm gonna start
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: saying bunker down, and everyone's just gonna make them like
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: a Cia plant or something.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Right, a narc Yeah. Oh, I can't talk about the
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: dogs right now, I know.
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: Very disappointing.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: What a heartbreaker. Yeah, okay, so you said something like that.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: People back in Tuktok's age definitely slow down in the wintertime, right,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Your body just changes, And that's still the case with humans.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: We have not evolved out of that. And there's been studies.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: There was a twenty fifteen study that found that the
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: simone in Bolivia and the San people in Namibia, who
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: are in no way, shape or form related ones in
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: South America ones in Africa, they both sleep longer in
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: the winter and less in the summer. And you might say, like, well, duh,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: we all do that. That's exactly the point. There's some
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: sort of biological mechanism. There's some sort of like I said,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: imperative where you, without conscious thought and kind of without
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: without a choice, you slow down in the winter time
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: and you speed up more in the summertime. That's just
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: what our bodies do. And because of this natural thing,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: it can go haywire, just like any other natural thing
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: in humans. When it does, that produces seasonal effective disorder,
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: and they think they've got the mechanism to the whole
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: thing down.
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that, you know, that's kind of evidence. In
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: this German study from twenty twenty three, they did a
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: study and caveat all this was it was a study
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: already of people that had sleeping issues with disturbed sleeping patterns, right,
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: so it was kind of you know, it wasn't just
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: the general population. And interestingly, they found that even if
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: they were living in place where it was mostly artificial light,
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: even then by season their sleep cycles would vary. So
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: it's not just like, yeah, if you live out away
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: from all the you know, out in the boonies, away
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: from industrialization, your circadian rhythms are really dictated by natural light.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: That would make sense, but they found that that took
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: place even when you were just living a regular, well
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: lit life.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, even when you lived in a windowless, brutalist apartment
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: in Munich. That's right. You wear a black turtleneck all
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: year round, oh man. And then another kind of thing,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: like you said, that was a small study and it
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: was of people who already had a sleep disorder. Yet
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: it backs up what everybody kind of anecdotally already knows. Right,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: you sleep more in the season, and you're more tired
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: in the winter season. Another thing that's anecdotal but is
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: backed up by study is that your appetite changes, right. Yeah,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: some of it's cultural, where like you know, Christmas cookies
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: are around, sure you're gonna eat them, and Christmas cookies
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: aren't around in March. Say maybe some maniac makes like
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Saint Patrick's Day cookies, but way more people make Christmas
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: cookies than Saint Patrick's Stay cookies. So there are reasons
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: that your appetite does increase just because there's more delicious
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: stuff around. But we've also found that just by being
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: in colder temperatures, being exposed to colder temperatures over periods
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: of time, hormone levels change in our bodies. And we
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: crave more calories because as we digest them, we produce
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: more heat and that keeps us warm. We don't need
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: bear skins anymore.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, we need buckeyeballs. And Emily's aunt comes
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: to town every Christmas now and all the her mom
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: and her aunt and her sister and Ruby, they all
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: make have a night making Christmas cookies.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: Oh dude, I did better this year than usual. I
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: somehow managed to only put on five pounds.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Hey, that's not bad for Christmas.
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: From Thanksgiving to January fourth.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: That's not bad because usually that number is more like twelve.
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: So and I found that that temporary sort of goes
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: off a little quicker too.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: It's certainly you get back to reason, you know.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the key is getting back to reason faster
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: than you know, just not putting it off for the
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: rest of the month of January, That's what I think.
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: And the buck eyeballs are gone, and those old fashions
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: really slow down after Christmas.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Man, those buck eyeballs. I made my mom's Christmas cookies,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: my mom's recipe, the one that I grew up with
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: as a kid, that had confounded me for years because
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: I couldn't get it quite right. It was always too flowery. Okay,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: And in the last few years I've learned enough about
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: baking that I kind of figured it out on my
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: own and I nailed it finely.
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: Nice.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was going to have some of those.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: I'll make you some.
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: It takes Christmas though, yes, for sure.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: Note don't do it, but you got me these cookie
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: cutters that are all like kind of they're like sentimental
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: between us, like different shapes. And one of them is broccoli,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: so proctally say cookie cutters and I hate broccoli.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: So oh I love that. That's fun.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't have any I oh yeah. We were
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: talking about how appetite changes.
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: That's right. Here's one thing though you might think you've
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: probably heard that, like, you know, suicide spike around the
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: holidays because it can be such a tough time of
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: the year for people. That is actually not true. In fact,
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: they happen the least in December. They're more common in
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: the summertime. Of course in Australia that's reversed because of
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: where they are on how their seasons run. So we're
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: talking about that, you know, our hemispheres perspective obviously, right.
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: But I found that interesting and it's good to correct
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: the record because I think everyone always hears that it's
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: probably good in a way, because it's anytime you're raising
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: awareness on something like that, that's a good thing. But
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: that's not true that they spike over the holidays.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Now. I feel like we've talked about that before, and
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: they think that maybe like just by people reaching out
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: more during the holidays, you have a greater social calendar.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Typically just the holiday spirit can get to people. But
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: then also there's some other explanations for why it might
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: be more common in the spring or summer months, like
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: you might just have more energy to actually complete suicide. Right.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Another one that I thought was just horrible is that
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: there are autoimmune conditions like lupus or rheumatoid arthritis that
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: are linked to seasonal allergies, and that people who have
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: those are is this this overlooked population of people with
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: a higher suicide risk, and that that would account for
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: it because your loopis is probably flaring up way more
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: in the spring and summer than it is in the
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: winter months.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. And you know, we've kind of hinted
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: around about the length of day, and we're going to
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: talk a lot about that over the next little bit,
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: but it is, you know, it's intuitive and it's correct
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: that the more tense that seasonal changes as far as
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: that length of day goes, the more likely you're gonna
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: have SAD. That was a I believe it was a
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: meta analysis from South Korea just last year in twenty
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: twenty five. They had studied twenty four studies with thirty
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: thousand total participants, so pretty robust. And for each one
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: degree of increase in latitude, SAD rose by point two percent,
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: and the just the winter blues by point three two percent.
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: So one, you know, one degree increase in latitude is
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: obviously a little less daylight.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: It's like Jimmy Buffett said, changes in latitude, changes in attitude.
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: Never thought about that.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: That's what he was talking about with seasonal effective disorder
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: in that song.
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he changed the title though, because you know, when
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: you title things like Cheeseburger in Paradise, you can't title
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: something seasonal effective disorder.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Well, it was originally this song was titled major depressive
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: Disorder with a seasonal pattern, right, right, So yeah, I
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: think he was wise to change it. As well. So
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: let's talk about is you want to get into some
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: of the causes. I've been teasing this basically the entire episode,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: and I'm really kind of jazzed about this part.
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, here's here's where it gets science y,
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: because our old friends. Obviously serotonin and melatonin show up, right.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, so just as a refresher, serotonin is responsible for
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: things like mood, sleep, cognition, bunch of other stuff. But
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: as far as seasonal effective disorder goes, those are the
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: important things that serotonin does. Right. Yeah, what's really cool.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: I didn't actually realize this sunlight hitting your retina actually
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: triggers production of serotonin. It increases the production of serotonin. Right,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: So therefore, when we're exposed to less sunlight, there's a
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: lower angle of the sun, you just don't get as
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: much sun physically in the winter months. That means that
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: your serotonin levels are actually less in winter than they
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: are in the brighter spring and sou summer months. That's
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: just a fact. It happens to everybody, but in most people,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: your serotonin transporter gene starts producing less serotonin transporter, the
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: stuff that goes in and gets the serotonin out. Of
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: the synapse, right, that's right, which means that there's less serotonin,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: but there's also less transporters removing the serotonin that's there,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: so you keep about the same level of, say, mood,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: that you would have in the summer months because your
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: body is adjusting. What they found, just amazingly is that
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: there are two things that are screwed up with the
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: serotonin and the serotonin transporter. That seem to be one
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: of the major causes of seasonal effective disorder.
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: So spill it. You're on a roll.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, So people with seasonal who get seasonal effective disorder,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: they have enough serotonin all year to keep them from
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: being depressed, right, But just like everybody else, when they
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: are exposed to less light, their serotonin goes down. But
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: the thing that seems to give them seasonal effective disorder
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: is that their serotonin transporters don't also go down. So
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: like everybody else, they have lower serotonin during the winter,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: but they have the same amount of serotonin transporters, so
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: there's less serotonin, and proportionately speaking, there's more serotonin transporters
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: removing the serotonin keeping it from working, which pushes them
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: from non depressed to depressive. Symptoms all because they're exposed
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: to less light during the wintertime.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, I mentioned women have it four
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: times as often as men do, and it was tied
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: to estrogen, and it looks like variations and estrogen levels
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: can interact with those changes in serotonin and basically make
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: it worse. And that probably is the explanation why women
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: get it more. And you know perimenopause and menopause affect
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: all that as well, which are that's an episode we
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: need we need to do for sure. Yeah, and also
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: there you know, we mentioned there's a genetic element, right,
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: So it looks like that people is generally speaking, who
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: have at least one short allele in that serotonin transporter
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: gene promoter region. I know that's a lot of words, everybody,
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: Huh the tl d L is too long? Hidn't listen?
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: Is that right?
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: Is that it's there's a genetic component. So if you
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: have that short allele, you're going to be more more
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: vulnerable to developing just regular depression, to any kind of
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: like you know, life events or stresses like that, or
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: just depression period. But that short allele is also associated
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: with those higher search levels, the se RT levels in
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: the winter and that's where your increased level is SAD
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: is going to come on.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's serotonin. That's a big, big factor in
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: reducing seasonal effective disorder, as well as just any kind
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: of major impression, right.
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So melatonin is next, and that just kind of
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: broadly speaking as far as we're concerned as the one
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: that you know, kind of makes you sleepy.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which I mean, it can make you sleepy, it
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: can make you lethargic, it can make you not want
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: to go out, and all of this stuff. Remember, there's
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: a positive heedback loop here with the depressive symptoms that
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: come on with seasonal effective disorder, the behavior they produce
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: feeding back into becoming more and more depressed. Melatonin keeps
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: you from wanting to do stuff because that's the way
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: our bodies are set up to respond during the winter.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: And it all has to do with the circadian rhythm, which,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: as everybody knows, most people know, governs your sleep and
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: wake cycle. Right.
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: It also has to do with digestion, it has to
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: do with body temperature, and all sorts of other hormones.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I didn't know this, but apparently it has to do
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: with the release of cortisol, which we think of cortisolts
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: typically as a stress hormone full stop, and it is,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: but it also is a hormone that causes us to
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: do more stuff to produce more energy. So when the
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: circadian rhythm is not quite functioning correctly, it doesn't just
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: make us sleepy, it actually makes us less energetic as well.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: And the whole thing, the whole circadian rhythm is controlled
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: by a little part of the hypothalamus called the super
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: chismatic nucleus or the SCN.
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: Nice work on that one.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: I practiced a couple of times.
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the SEN And this is where we can throw
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: a little German in there. It relies on zeitgebers or
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: time givers. And these are just clues from the world
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: around us telling you you know, what's going on. And
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: mainly what we're talking about here is light. Sunlight again
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: hitting those retinas, it travels to the SCN and then
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: that signals the pineal gland to release or produce that melatonin.
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: So the more light you have, the less melatonin have have.
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: That's why you know you're not supposed to be looking
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: at your cell phone or avoid like really bright lights
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: before you try and get some sleep. But the tldal
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: here is it just means our bodies make more melotonin
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: in the wintertime than the summertime, So you're gonna be
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: sleeping longer and probably a little more lethargic.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So serotonin plus melotonin being messed with it
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: happens to everybody, but most people's bodies respond in a
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: way that that regulates it and keeps it from becoming depression.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Some people do not have that same way to regulate it,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: and that's who has seasonal effective disorder.
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I thought this is really interesting. So it's
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: you know, we just said that if you experience sad
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: then you're you're gonna have a greater than average increase
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: in melotonin in the winter than you know, your your
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: average person. But this is really interesting. You know, we
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: talked about sunlight coming through your retinas, and that's the
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: pathway that it initially travels, right, maybe a little on
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: your skin, but mainly through your retinas. They found that
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: your retinas actually actually react less to light in the
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: winter compared to the summer.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: You're right, Chuck, that is really interesting, Thank you, Josh.
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: And I guess before we break, we should talk about
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: the third little thing after serotonin and melotone in which
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: are social and environmental factors. You know, if you have sad,
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: you when it's when fall rolls around, you start to
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: get that dread. You're going to have a negative emotional
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: response to winter. It's not the cause of it, but
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: that's part of that feedback feedback loop that you were
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: talking about. You're like, oh man, the days are going
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: to get shorter if you live in the Pacific Northwest
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: or other places where it rains a lot and it's
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: just more gray days that time of year. You just
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: you start to have that dread and that that just
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: feeds everything.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, it just makes it worse. And then, yeah,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: the whole thing is that feedback loop. Chuck, I'm going
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: to do it again. I think we should take a
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: message break.
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: All right, we'll finish up with sad right after this.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: Lately I've been learning some stop about insomnia or aluminia.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: How about the one hon borderlin disorder that are younger
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: order that one be warm But it was so nice.
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: Hoar why except nobody listen up?
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Job stop stop stop, Yes, all right, So we talked
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: several times that about sad being a form of major depression,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: which means that it is highly treatable. Actually thanks to
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: our friend, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor SSRI or antidepressants apparently well,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: BUTTRIN works really well to treat SAD. But basically any
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: SSRI is going to work. One thing that stuck out
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: to me, I believe that if you have seasonal effective disorder,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: but you you're not. You don't have bipolar, you don't
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: have major depressive disorder, it's just seasonal. I guess they
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: suggest that you take SSRIs. You ramp up and say,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: like the fall before it becomes winter, and then you
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: wean off as springtime comes around. So they would have
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: you on SSRIs, but not year round because you wouldn't
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: need them year round. I thought that was fascinating because
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: that can be that can be risky if you don't
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: do it right, it can be really risky.
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, one of the things after that
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: they suggest with all of these treatments is that you
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: you you start before it hits like you know, and
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: depending on where you live, like when fall starts rolling around,
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: maybe you start some of these therapies to see if
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: you can head it off at the pass like in
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: the Old West. Yeah, but CBT is another thing that
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: they suggest. Like all cognitive behavioral therapy, it's basically, folks,
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: you know, trying to get you to change the way
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: you're thinking about a thing. It might be a group
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: therapy a couple of times a week over a couple
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: of months maybe, but specifically in this case, it's like,
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: let's try and get those negative thoughts about the upcoming
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: season or the season that is upon you with positive
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: ones and maybe do things like, hey, I know this
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: is a thing for me, so I'm gonna plan some
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: things specifically for this winter that I know that I
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: will enjoy.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like CBT seeks to break that feedback loop up,
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: so at least you're not getting worse and worse because
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: of all the other the cascading effects that has. Yeah,
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: for sure, one of the other ones, like as that
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four study right off the bat came identified
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: a really great treatment for seasonal effective disorder that's non
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: pharmaceutical that you can do at home. As a matter
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: of fact, you can do it at the library. I
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: saw that the libraries in Northern Ireland rent out light boxes.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: It's called bright light therapy. Us is very intense white light.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Don't worry, there's a protective UV cover, so you're not
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: blasting your face. You're not going to get a tant
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: from it, essentially, but your retinas are going to pick
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: up on that white light, and so serotonin is going
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: to increase, your melatonin is going to not be so high,
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: and it can actually treat especially moderate forms of seasonal
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: effective disorder.
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. The idea is you put this light on.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: You don't just sit there and stare at it. You
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: just kind of maybe do it in the morning fifteen
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: minutes to an hour, maybe forty five minutes or so,
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: cast it upon your face. This goes is that funny? Yeah,
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: this goes all the way back actually to the seventeen hundreds.
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: It was an Italian physician named Vincenzo Chierra Rugi who
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: way back then said, hey, if you're depressed, I think
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: sunlight would help. So it's been a thing for a
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: long time, but now you know, obviously they still say
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: get out in the sun if you can. But in
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: a lot of places where there's limited light in the
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: winter or just gray days like we were talking about,
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: this is where the blt that bright light therapy comes
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: in play. I saw they also make little hats, little visors.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that just shine down on your face at
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: all times.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Nice like Collective Soul said, Yeah.
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: I don't think you're supposed to I think it's supposed
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: to be limited. Still, though, you're not supposed to have
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: that light on you at all times because it can
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: disrupt your sleep and cause eye strain and fatigue and
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: stuff like that.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, you don't want to overdo it for sure,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: And I think it's different for each person how much
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: you actually but it does work. I know firsthand it
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: works because you may used to get what I guess
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: you would call sub syndromeal seasonal effective disorder. She didn't
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: definitely didn't have major depression, but it was like she
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: was impacted noticeably, and she found out about light boxes
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: and got one and it helped her a lot.
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: That's cool. I have friends that use these things just
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: for not even seasonal, just for you know, regular depression,
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: and they say it helps them out. Dawn stimulation is
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: another thing, and it's kind of the same idea, but
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: it's like one of those alarm clocks that slowly starts
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: brightening your room over the course of like thirty minutes
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: or so as you're waking up, so again, tied into
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: this circadian rhythm of rising with the sun's rise.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: Do you remember that alarm clock from the seventies and
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: eighties that like it would light up. It had a
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: picture of like I think, like a fence out in
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: the Old West, and the sky would go like dark blue.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: It would like it would change the color of the
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: sky on the alarm clock picture depending on what time
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: of day it was. You don't remember those, no, I
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: don't they've ever seen that. They were amazing. My oldest
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: sister had one of those. I would love one. I
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: don't know what happened to that, probably broke.
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah. My brother had one of those clocks, the alarm
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: clocks that had the like a rollodex. It would flip
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: the numbers around like mechanically. Oh n yeah, those were fun.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The one I always had was like that.
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: Kind of oh man, no really yeah.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: When I was a teenager, that's what I needed.
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: Or the two bells with the hammer.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: I had one of those too.
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: Oh man.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: There was a period where I had the one that
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: went I wouldn't do it, so I had to switch
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: over to the two bells one.
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: Oh, i'd be always had a hard time waking up
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: like that?
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, have I I don't anymore, but yes, I used
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: to when I was a teenager.
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: Well, because I get emails from you at like five
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: thirty in the morning. What the hell are you doing?
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: You farming?
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: I've seen I've milking the cows and email at the
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: same time. Sometimes I have decided that getting up at
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: five is way too early for me. So good, I'm
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: doing six.
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: Now, Hey, that's reasonable.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: It is seven sometimes if I'm feeling frisky.
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: They had a really late night the night before.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I went to bed at ten.
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: We should mention vitamin D speaking of cows, because vitamin
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: D deficiency does correlate with a more likelihood of having
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: or developing SAD. But they haven't found any like good, hard,
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: consistent evidence that vitamin D supplements can help a lot.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: There's one place. Remember you said that high latitudes. Yeah,
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: the higher the latitude, the more negative the attitude, right,
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: the likelier you are to have seasonal a factor of
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: disorder that does not hold true at least in some parts,
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: some of the most extremely northern parts the world. In
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: particular's a town called trumsa Norway that is very northern.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: It might be the most northernmost city in Norway. It's
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: really high up there. Suffice to say that they are
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: absent from sunlight. I think two full months out of
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: the year. Oh man, like nothing, nothing like the sun
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: comes out. I mean, I think it might get as
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: much as it would get like before sunrise on a
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: normal day, And they go like that for two months.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: And yet the rates of seasonal effective disorder are much
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: less in Trums of that than you would expect.
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems to be because they've done just sort
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: of studies and questionnaires, and people there agree with statements
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: like I love the coziness of the winter months. Winter
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: brings many wonderful seasonal changes. They don't agree with winter
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: is boring when winter is limiting. So it seems to
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: really be a lot about the attitude. And you know,
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: I think if you live there, a lot of people
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: probably don't just move there. It seems to be a
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: place where you're usually from. Or maybe people do move
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: to one of the most northernmost cities in the world.
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: I'm sure it happens, but generally, if you have grown
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: up in a place and that's the thing. Everyone knows
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: that's the thing, and so there are probably many many
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: events and traditions and activities that they do to thwart that.
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: And it seems to work because they get into their skiing,
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: they get into their winter hiking, they get into their
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: cozy drinks and their warm blankets and their fireplaces, and
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: it seems to be that they look forward to that
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: stuff and it bears out by them not having a
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: prevalence of sad there.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting, yeah, And some people point to
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: that as evidence. They say that there's no such thing
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: as sad. That just does not make sense. If sad
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: is this response to biological imperative that happens every year
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: among people who are maladjusted for that imperative, then that's
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: just not be the way in TRUMSA And there was
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: actually a study from twenty sixteen from researchers at Auburn Montgomery,
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: the University of Auburn and Montgomery, and they studied CDC
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: data and they found no seasonal variations in depression symptoms
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: and it was a massive population that they studied. I mean,
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: if there is such a thing as seasonal effective disorder,
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: then there should be an increase in the winter months
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: and they didn't find it. That does not seem to
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: be the consensus among the scientific community. As a matter
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: of fact, I wanted to go click on the link
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: in this Scientific American article that we were checking out
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: that exploded. It was gone. It couldn't find it.
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: Oh wow.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: So it made me wonder if they quietly retracted it,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: or maybe it was just a broken link. It never
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: can tell. But for the most part, if you look
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: up seasonal effective disorder, every reliable website in America like
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: Johns Hopkins or Harvard Health or Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic,
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: I could keep going. They are they all are all
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: all in non seasonal effective disorder.
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: I'm now I'm picturing just like a couple of scientists
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: in a ditch being shoveled over with lime.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: So just one thing before we stop. It has nothing
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: to do with Norway, really, but it reminded me. I
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: saw a there's a good true crime. I don't know
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: if it's a docudrama, but it's based on real life
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: and it's Danish. It's called The Investigation. It's so mellow,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: The Investigation.
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: I love those I love story set in those parts
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: of the world. I love Danish filmmaking and Norwegian filmmaking.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: You'll love it out. It's like there's at least one
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: episode where almost the entire time nothing happens, and they
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: just show nothing happening. It's it's but it's really good.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: It's really in growth, so I would recommend it. Awesome,
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: Chuck said, Awesome. That means he just triggered the first
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: listener mail of twenty twenty six. Everybody, that's right.
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: This is from Megan and Michigan. Hey, guys, thank you
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: for the many years of engaging in interesting content. I
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: first started listening in twenty twelve when I moved out
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: of my home state and would download episodes onto CDs.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Nice. Wow, that is why I love old.
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: Well, this will make you feel old too, to pass
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: the time on the long drives in my old Cavalier.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: Wow, they don't still make the Cavalier, do they.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: I don't believe so. No. I think they buried them
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: with those Auburn and Montgomery well twenty twelve.
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: I'ms probably wasn't in the camery. I just listened to
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: your Dolls episode. Guys. I had to write in I
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: have three kids and they have at times acted out
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: scenarios with dolls and toys that would have been very
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: disturbing if I had not been prepared that it was
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: very normal and healthy. Actually, the most recent example is
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: when my five year old came into the house and
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: told me that he and his three year old sister
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: had made gravestones in the backyard because their twin baby
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: dolls had died. Oh my, even knowing it's normal, I
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: do have to take a deep breath and remind myself
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: that part of raising emotionally healthy kids as letting the
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: process through play. Still, I was a bit relieved the
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: next day, and they threw a big party the babies
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: first birthday. So she skips out the part where they
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: dug them off out if they exhumed them from the grave.
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: Thanks again for bringing so many topics and perspectives to
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: light while somehow keeping things humorous and upbeat. Looking forward
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: to learning more in twenty twenty six. That is Megan
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: and Michigan.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Nice Megan, thank you for that. That was a great,
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: great email, and God bless your kids for being awesome.
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: For sure.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: If you want to be like Meghan and tell us
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: about your awesome kids, we love that kind of thing.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: You could send it off to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen to your favorite shows. MHM.