Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / Bruce Springsteen: Still "The Boss" After All These Years! [Episode 186]

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Bruce Springsteen: Still "The Boss" After All These Years! [Episode 186] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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One really interesting chapter of the book I want to ask you about. It's
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regarding Bruce's longest show four hours, right, I think it was four hours,
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he says. Oh, they told us that we're getting close to breaking
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this record, so you know, I think they throw a couple of extra
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verses in the song to sort of spin it out a bit. You can
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take that length. We're totally booked rock and roll. I mean, I'll
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leave you. You're reading. Little Hands says it's time to rock and roll,
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roll out. Are totally booked. Welcome back to Booked on Rock,
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the podcast for those about to read and rock. Find the podcast at booked
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on rock dot com. You can find every episode of Booked on Rock there,
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along with links to your favorite listening platforms, exclusive videos, blogs,
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links to all of the social media sites. The latest rockbook releases in now.
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You can watch every episode in full on video at bookedown rock dot com.
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You can also find it on the book don Rock YouTube channel at Booked
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on Rock. Author Jillian g. Gar is back on the podcast, this
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time to talk about her brand new book, Springsteen at seventy five through seventy
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five, career releases, performances, and accolades. This book covers it all,
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including Bruce's childhood in New Jersey and his time in early garage bands The
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Castiles and Steele Mill. All studio albums are covered, along with the selection
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of Bruce's greatest singles. Also included are his relationships with notable bandmates Stephen van
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zandt in the Lake, Clarence Clements, his legendary concerts, his relationship with
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his wife and bandmate Patti Scialfa, his awards, and much much more.
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To hear a playlist to Bruce Springsteen, head over to the show notes page.
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Jillian, Welcome back to the podcast. How you doing? Oh,
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I'm doing pretty well. How are you? I'm good. Last time I
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had John Wiz for your Elton John at seventy five book. Ah, how
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long ago that scene? Yes? And now here we are for Bruce Springsteen
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at seventy five, unbelieve. Well, so he's going to be seventy five,
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I believe. What's September twenty third? Yes? Yeah, so yeah,
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not too much longer now. Yeah. So for me, the moment
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that I knew I was a huge Springsteen fan for good, I was around
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eighteen or nineteen and I was in college. I was a fan of the
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singles of course, I'm Born in the USA and Tunnel of Love. I
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love the songs that were on the radio. But when I listened to Bruce's
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Live seventy five to eighty five box set, it was like he was speaking
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to me, and from that point on, I was all in. So
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I'm curious to know what your first Springsteen moment was, the moment you knew
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you were a fan. Well, I guess the moment I got interested would
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be in hearing the single Born to Run, because you know, I love
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all that girl group stuff and it obviously harkens back to that so much,
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you know, and you know he was such a fan of those sounds as
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well, and Phil Specter and the Wall of Sound and the Ronettes and Crystals
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and Cherrill's and all of them. And I like how it it. You
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know, it's an update of that sound. It's not just by doing a
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cover version of that stuff, but it's clearly influenced by it. I mean,
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it's updated, but in a good way. You know, sometimes updates
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don't always work. Yeah. Well, and I want to ask you about
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that song and how it took a little while for that song to take off.
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But let's talk about the book cover so much of Bruce's life and career,
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and it will lead up to his seventy fifth birthday. Like I mentioned
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in September, tell us about how the book is laid out to coincide with
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Bruce's seventy fifth Well, so I guess it was. Let's see what did
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Elton come out? I guess that was last year. So the publisher Quarto,
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I'd written books for them before, and they had this new imprint called
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Motor Books. And I don't know how they came up with the concept of
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such and such artists at seventy five or whatever year it is, but they
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did. And so David Bowie was the first in that series. Was David
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Bowie at seventy five, And that was done by another writer and Martin Popoff,
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who actually recommended me for the Elton book. So thank you Martin.
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Oh how about that? Okay, Martin's been on this show many times.
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He's been on many shows many times. Well then you know, so,
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yeah, we both write for Goldmine Magazine and I had been a cover stor
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in Elton John so he thought, Oh, I guess he knew the editors
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must have been saying, oh, we want to do one on Elton John,
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and so he said, oh, I know someone that just wrote about
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him. So that's how I did Elton John. And then the next one
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they offered me, and the ideas came from the publisher. These weren't instances
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where I was pitching an idea, which is actually great because then you know
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the publisher likes the idea. You don't have to sell them on it.
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They already know they're doing a book on this. You just kind of have
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to say, well, yeah, i'd like to do this. So some
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years before actually I think it came out in twenty sixteen on a different Quarto
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imprint. They had a series of books that would be such and such the
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Complete Illustrated History of you know whatever, band, the Doors or Nirvana.
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Those are books I contributed to. And so they did one on Bruce called
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Boss Bruce Springsteen and the East Street Band, The Illustrated History, and that
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came out in twenty sixteen. So I suppose that's why when they decided to
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do Bruce at seventy five for this other imprint, they thought of me because
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I'd already done a book on Bruce for them It also made it easier because
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we'll let's say that came out in twenty sixteen, so you know, it
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was kind of laid out what things you would pick. I was familiar with
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his life up to that point, so you kind of knew what you would
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pick from there, and then it was just a matter of also covering everything
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past twenty sixteen. Twenty sixteen too. I guess I turned that in last
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year. I can't even remember. I think I must have turned it in
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last year, yes, because it was after the live show, the concerts.
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So then you know, you just throw in a few more things to
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bring it up to seventy five. Yeah, and it's amazing. He is
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still as busy as ever since twenty sixteen, and he's still going strong.
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The first entry in the book marks Bruce's birth on September twenty third, nineteen
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forty nine. I want to ask you about what his childhood was like.
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You include a quote from his memoir Born to Run where he said he had
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a greater interest in songs, quote where the singer sounded simultaneously happy and sad.
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Did that emotional complexity come from his childhood? What were those early days
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like for Bruce well, well, it certainly wasn't an easy childhood because the
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family didn't have a lot of money. He talks about that a lot in
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his memoir, which is also called Born to Run, one of many things
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all Born to Run. And it's really good. I actually, if you're
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interested in rock music of the seventies or eighties, I think it's the kind
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of book you'd enjoy reading, even if you weren't necessary really that interested in
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Springsteen. I mean, have you read it. Yes, it's a phenomenal
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book. It's one of the best. I mean, it's up there with
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Keith Richard's book. I mean it's he's brutally honest in the book, and
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he talks about his depression and things. It's an amazing book. And so
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I think you'd agree with that, wouldn't you. That you don't have to
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be a huge broofman like it. Obviously liking rock music with help because of
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all the references he makes to it. And he's an amazing writer. I'm
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assuming he's the one who wrote all. The way he tells the stories is
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amazing. It's not a surprise just because he is a great storyteller through music,
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but the writing is brilliant. Yeah, but yeah, certainly. I
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mean, actually, the think back to the girl group songs again, A
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lot of them they're happy songs, but then I find there's often this kind
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of bittersweet quality running underneath them. We think it's something like the ron Ets
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be My Baby, and they're you know, she's she's bleeting with this guy
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to be her boyfriend, and so it has this really thick, lush sound
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with the wall of sound from the producer Phil Spector. But also, you
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know, it has this sadness underneath. And I think there's something about things
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that are sad or melancholy that really, you know, tug on your heart
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more. I mean, I think tragedies make a greater impression on people than
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say a happy story. Though people like hearing those two, but you know,
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it's different. So I think I think that's the kind of thing he
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responded to the emotions that it conjures up. Yeah, you covered the early
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bands Bruce was in before forming his own band. There's the Castiles, Earth
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steel Mill. From reading the book, both the Castiles and steel Mill were
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actually heading in the right direction but stalled before long. How good would those
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bands? Does audio exist of those bands? I know, I think a
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few things have come out legally. I know that on the there the CD
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that came out in conjunction with the Born to Run book the memoir, there
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was also a companion CD. I'm not sure if it was on vinyl or
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what, but it had a couple songs. I think it had one of
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the Castile's songs, and I know it had one. I think it's steel
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Mill. One of a steel Mill song. What Bruce Well in the Castile's
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he's not really so prominent, so no, they just sound like this kind
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of you know, garage rock band. But yeah, certainly Steel steel Mill.
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They you know, had a more polished sound. But but maybe I
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would say not as individualized as Bruce sounds on his own. But you know,
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there's so many illicit well maybe you shouldn't say elicit, but uh,
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there's so much unreleased stuff that you can listen to online now. I mean,
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I'm sure some of those some of those things are on YouTube. Even
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the Castile single is size that you know, someone just uploaded it. Because
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it's different now than in the days of traditional bootlegs. I remember in the
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seventies and eighties, you know when bootlegs would come out, and even a
10:11
bit in the nineties, they'd be very high priced if they were on vinyl
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or CD, and you weren't always sure what the quality would be. But
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then the Internet seems to have changed that a lot, and even the rationale
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for how people safe share things is different. People aren't unnecessarily hoarding things and
10:28
then waiting to put out a pricey bootleg release. They just upload it for
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nothing, and it's this sort of point of pride if you can release something
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rare before anyone else does, even though you're not getting any money from it.
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I suppose it's frustrating for record companies that want to I would like to
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make money from that, but again I suppose they feel they can't release everything.
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I mean, it does mean it's kind of a gray area because the
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people are uploading stuff, they're not making any money, so they're not really
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taking any money from the artist. But yeah, you can certainly find that
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stuff online. I'm amazed at what's out there if you look around. Yeah,
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it's like the Wild West Man. There are no rules. Everything's out
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there now. Yeah. Entry number six of the book explores how Bruce got
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his nickname the Boss. So there are various accounts of this. Yeah,
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you can. You tend to find that in in stories, especially about a
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band's early years. You know, there'll always be kind of conflicting accounts.
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And I mean certainly as far as as far as the nickname, the accounts
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maybe aren't necessarily conflicting. They could all be true for different reasons. Certainly
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you could see he would be jokingly referred to as the boss, as the
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head guy in the band, as the one who passed out the money and
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that kind of thing. Yeah, he was the one. I think if
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they were paid, he'd be the guy to go to the owner and say,
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oh, it's money. Was that the case? I can't remember,
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And I think especially after he left the bands like Earth and Steel Mill and
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he was being Bruce Springsteen. He wanted a band, but he didn't want
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the generic band name anymore or general band name maybe better than generic. But
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because he wanted to be the leader, he wanted to be out front.
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Yeah. Yeah, Thus the Boss and the partnership of Bruce and Clarence Clemens
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is one for the ages. Can you tell the story of that that dark
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and stormy night they first made music together? This is this is almost too
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good to be true. It's like a scene out of a movie. I
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know, I know, even the way they each told it, and they
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each put books out, So yeah, it does have those those features.
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You can see. It's a story that lends itself to to being embellished,
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but the but the essence of it is probably true. You know. It
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was it was a dark and stormy night on the boardwalk in New Jersey,
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meaning there weren't many people out of the clubs. So so Bruce and Clarence
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had each heard of each other. So yeah, when Clarence's band, who's
13:07
playing down the road, goes on break, he says, oh, okay,
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I'll go out and check out this other band. So the moment they
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write about is here he comes in and the it's storming outside, and he
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opens the door and there's such a magical presence that the door flies off its
13:24
handles and you know, rattles way down the street. Well, it was
13:28
kind of a stormy night, you know, maybe maybe there was a little
13:31
door action there and everyone looks up startled. And here, you know,
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Clarence was a big guy, so here you have this big, big gear
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coming towards the stage. Can I play with you and Bruce, well,
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go ahead. But then but then, as they say, it sounded it
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sounds like I love at first sight moment, doesn't it. Yeah. He
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starts playing with them and they go, oh okay, yeah, yeah,
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this works. This works really well. Even though they didn't quite get together
13:58
right away, right was still in another band, so you know, it's
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not like he dropped everything and joined them. It took a little bit of
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time. Yeah, it took a little bit of time. But then the
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formation of the E Street Band that comes shortly entry number nine in the book
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is the formation of the band Gary Talon on bass, Clarence on saxophone,
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Vinnie maddog lo Pez on drums, and then Danny Federici on keyboards along with
14:18
David Sanchez, who has a connection to the band name. He lived at
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his mother's house on eleven oh five E Street in Belmar, New Jersey,
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So that's how they come up with the name. And they're on the first
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two Springsteen albums, Greetings from Asbury Park and The Wild the Innocent in the
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EA Street Shuffle, both from nineteen seventy three. Columbia Records wanted to drop
14:39
Bruce after they were released, though, because they didn't do that well.
14:43
They did have some great songs blinded by the Light, Spirit in the Night
14:46
Rosalita. Why do you think they didn't connect with as many people as the
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label hoped and as Bruce hoped. Well, I think, looking back now,
14:56
it's probably because they didn't get an enough of a push on the radio.
15:01
I mean, certainly they were out there touring all the time and had
15:05
built up following that way from their dynamic live performances. But if you don't
15:11
get someone at the label pushing you, I think it's harder to break through.
15:16
I mean, you know, the US is a big country, and
15:18
like say in England, where you could probably break through a lot faster because
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England's about the size of you know, one of our states. You know,
15:28
it's just not that big. But here, you know, you have
15:31
a whole country, a whole country to deal with, and yeah, all
15:37
the different markets the country be divided up into the different market areas and the
15:41
different promo man for each of our market and yeah, if they're not all
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working together, I could see how things could fall through the cracks. I
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as I was also going to say that though they attracted live audiences, maybe
15:56
on radio there wasn't really a sound like his on the radio that much.
16:00
This kind of energetic band sound, not like him anyway, kind of raw
16:06
and rough and ready, but obviously well played too, not ragged or anything.
16:12
But yeah, there weren't really many other artists like that out there,
16:17
and I think there was sort of an uncertainty of how to market him.
16:19
You know, they wanted him to be a solo artist, but he wanted
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the energy of a rock band. So you know, he wasn't really a
16:26
singer songwriter, but how could he be a band. He's just one guy,
16:29
So I think there might have been some confusion too. Yeah, what
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different phrasing, the way he's the way he sang. It's a very different
16:36
sound. And I know people who love those first two albums, or the
16:40
first album more so than the ones that come after that. What do you
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think of those first two albums? Are you a big fan of those?
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Well? I think he hadn't quite found his own style yet because the first
16:52
two albums, I mean, especially that first one, they're pretty verbose,
16:56
and I think that's why people do a lot of Dylan comparisons, you know,
16:59
yes, with the language and all the words stuffed in there. Yeah,
17:02
but then later he kind of I think deliberately because he didn't want to
17:06
be compared to Dylan or be called the new Dylan. He wasn't the new
17:10
Dylan. He was his own Bruce. So I think he definitely made an
17:15
attempt to change that, change that style. So yeah, yeah, they're
17:22
interesting. It's always interesting to see an artist's earlier work because then you can
17:26
see how they grew and developed. Yeah, it is interesting. And the
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song idea that comes to him while he's on tour in late nineteen seventy three
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would be the one that breaks him into the big time. That's born to
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Run. Now, this is interesting. There's changes that this song goes through
17:42
during the eight months it took to create it, right, can you talk
17:45
about that? It starts off differently, different lyrics, and I know when
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you read about well, I think you must talk about this, and well,
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obviously Hit talk about it in his memoir a lot, but when when
17:57
you think about all the effort that went into it, and then oh he
18:02
had changed this part and oh no, let's have a little more saxophone that
18:06
in that place, and can you do this again? And just continually tweaking
18:10
things and The danger in that is that, you know, you tweak things
18:15
too much and you kind of begin to lose the essence of what it was
18:18
to begin with. So I think he's kind of lucky that that happened didn't
18:22
happen, didn't happen. So maybe he knew just just the right elements.
18:26
I mean, the fact that it took so long to get that song together,
18:30
all those months, as you say, whereas and he himself would know
18:33
all this, A lot of this music he grew up listening to, you
18:37
know, was banged out in an afternoon. They didn't sweat over it as
18:41
much as he did. This, but he must have, you know,
18:44
he realized it was the culmination of his entire career to that point, and
18:52
he must have sensed that this could really be the make or break moment for
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him. Yeah, I saw in the documentary on I mean, he he
19:00
was obsessing over this song until he got it just just the way he wanted
19:03
it to sound. And I mentioned earlier it took a little while for the
19:07
song to take off, plus a little while for the song to develop.
19:10
Columbia liked the song, but they wouldn't release it as a single. Why
19:14
was that? Why was that And how does Bruce's manager, Micha Pell,
19:17
ultimately change their mind? Well, yeah, that goes down to marketing.
19:22
You know, what good is having a hit single if you can't have an
19:26
album to go with it. And there was no third album yet, so
19:30
they didn't want to hit single out there because the hit single prompts people to
19:33
buy the album, but there wasn't an album to buy, so they go,
19:36
no, one's just wait, wait for it to come out, wait
19:40
for the album to be done, and then we'll release it. But yeah,
19:42
Bruce and his manager weren't going to go along with that. So yeah,
19:48
Mike just sort of slipped it out on the sly, you know,
19:52
gave it to a couple of DJs he was connected with, and then as
19:56
soon as it hit the airwaves, it just kind of forced Columbia's hand.
20:00
Yeah, wasn't it in Philadelphia? A station there that started playing it a
20:03
lot helped to break it? Yeah? I think what do I talk about
20:08
him being there? And maybe I'm just remembering it from his book? Yeah
20:11
crazy where he was at the station Bruce was doing an interview the first time
20:17
it was played on the radio ever, and going out into the lobby to
20:22
hear how it sounded on the speakers and not just in the studio. Wow,
20:26
that's cool. Yeah, And by this time Vinnie Lopez was no longer
20:30
the band. For the album Born to Run, we have Roy Bitten on
20:34
piano, Max Weinberg on drums, but on the song Born to Run,
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we have David Sanchez on keyboards and Ernest Carter on drums. They left shortly
20:42
after recording the song. With the album Born to Run, the Bruce is
20:48
now a major star like Overnight. Eight tracks on this album thunder Road,
20:52
Tenth Avenue, Freeze Out, night Backstreets, Born to Run, She's the
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one meeting Across the River and jungle Land. The album reaches number three on
21:00
Billboard, seven times platinum. He's on the cover of Time and Newsweek.
21:03
Now let's go back to Michael Pella again. He's important to Bruce early on.
21:08
I know he had his fallout with him, but he what does he
21:11
do to make this happen that being on the cover of Time and Newsweek.
21:15
He goes, it's a gopher broke type of thing he does here, right,
21:21
Yeah, I mean, you know, Mike was the believer, and
21:23
so that's why he was always pushing Bruce, promoting Bruce, much to the
21:29
record company's dismay and distraction. You know, can someone get rid of this
21:33
guy? But he was pushing and aggressive and that helps you, especially when
21:38
you haven't broken through and your record label isn't pleased with how you're doing and
21:41
thinking of maybe dropping you. So but by this time, yeah, Bruce's
21:47
is after born to run and that's a success. And what Mike did is
21:51
he just sort of forced the magazine's hands. He got one of them to
21:56
agree and then need to put Bruce on the cover, and then gets the
22:02
other one to agree when they find out that the rival magazine is also having
22:06
Bruce on. You know, there was resistance, well, no, we
22:10
don't want to have the same cover as them. But Mike's argument was,
22:14
well, you're going to put Bruce on the cover eventually anyway, so why
22:17
not do it now. Awesome? He had a great argument. Yeah,
22:22
and I guess they they couldn't really think of an answer for that something.
22:27
You get the sense that Bruce was non plus by it when it happened.
22:30
You know, his remark was, well, when am I the president?
22:33
Yeah? Yeah, because it's generally about the only time Time and Newsweek had
22:40
the same cover some really big major international story or I don't know, you
22:45
know, maybe a war breaking out or something, or some scandal or tragedy.
22:51
Yeah, no, having Bruce, that really was I don't know if
22:52
that's happened with any other artists, since I don't think so, and it
22:56
blew his mind. He wasn't ready for that. That was he entered this
23:00
whole new world. And that was entry number sixteen in the book, by
23:03
the way, and a number. Entry number eighteen gets into the lawsuit between
23:07
Bruce and Apel. What happened? What do the when did the problems start
23:11
between the two and ultimately what led to the lawsuit. Well, Bruce had
23:17
signed all these contracts with Mike. He wasn't really signed to Columbia. He
23:22
was sort of signed to you know, the I think it's it gets very
23:26
confusing. Mike set up all these different companies. He handled the personal management
23:32
and the publishing, and then they were like the middleman between Bruce and the
23:37
record label and so, which is fine when you're just starting out, that
23:42
doesn't really it doesn't really matter. But then once the money started coming in,
23:48
Bruce realized there was this big conflict of interest in having Mike's companies seemingly
23:53
control everything, and he felt he wasn't getting his fair shape. So that's
24:00
what started the lawsuits. But Mike's book is really interesting on this point,
24:04
on these points, and he contends that things are actually going his way throughout
24:11
throughout the lawsuits, that decisions were also going his way, but he felt
24:15
that in the end, however, it came out, Bruce was not going
24:18
to work with him again and want him to be his manager, So that's
24:21
why they settled, I guess. I guess the unfortunate part for Mike was
24:26
that he was able to keep the publishing of the albums. He had worked
24:30
on everything that they'd worked on up to when the lawsuit starts, but then
24:37
he ended up selling his rights, and he sold them before Born in the
24:44
USA came out, which of course is when Bruce goes megabig, and in
24:48
the wake of that, the live box set came out, which of course
24:53
had all these songs that were from Bruce's earlier years and the songs that Mike
25:00
had also held publishing too. Had he still had those publishing rights, then
25:06
you know, he'd have he'd have he'd have come away with a lot of
25:10
money, but as it was, it was kind of like, uh,
25:11
you know, losing the winning lottery ticket. So I know that was a
25:17
that was a disappointment to him. But but they eventually became friendly again,
25:22
as he also writes in his in his book that he says he's walking around
25:29
New York and he ran into John Landau, who'd become Bruce's manager, and
25:33
Mike said, you know, can't we just get together for lunch? You
25:37
know, it's silly for us. We've grown men to be having having these
25:41
kind of feuds hanging over us. And John agreed, and so you know,
25:45
everyone made peace, which was nice, you know, a good mature
25:48
thing to do. And then at some later point, I can't remember when
25:52
these shows happened, but there were shows where Bruce and the band were doing
25:57
an entire album, you know, playing the whole albums through from beginning to
26:00
end. And so at one of the shows when they were doing the first
26:04
album, he contacted Mike and said, oh, I'd like you to be
26:07
a guest at the show. And I think the show is in another state
26:11
or something, and Mike's going, well, I, you know, I
26:14
can't really get there, and says, no problem, don't worry about it.
26:18
Be ready at such and such a time and all the arrangements will be
26:21
made. So yeah, there was a car that could take into the airport
26:26
where there was a plane that would take him up to see the show and
26:27
back. So that was a nice gesture. I thought the book down Rock
26:32
Podcasts will be back after this author Jillian Guard's here to talk about a brand
26:37
new book. Springsteen at seventy five. He did Bruce Loss a lot of
26:42
time there in terms of songwriting, I mean, he was he would have
26:47
cranked out probably two albums during this period. I think it was what a
26:49
couple of years it was from seventy five to seventy seven, right that the
26:53
lawsuit was going on, I believe, right, a couple of years,
26:56
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then and then four days after seting the dispute
27:02
with the pel in nineteen seventy seven, he's back in the studio and it
27:04
results in nineteen seventy eights Darkness on the Edge of Town, and we now
27:07
have Stephen van zandt to round out the classic EA Street lineup. Darkness goes
27:12
to number five, three times platinum. The double album The River follows in
27:17
nineteen eighty goes all the way to number one thanks to the number five single
27:19
Hungry Heart five times platinum. He's primed for another huge commercial smash with the
27:25
next record, but but he follows his artistic compass with nineteen eighty two.
27:30
Is Nebraska a stripped down dark album? Not the album fans were expecting,
27:36
not what Bruce really intended? Right? How did this album come to be?
27:38
And why did Bruce feel it was important to record it, because he
27:41
did say later that if not for Nebraska, you wouldn't have gotten Born in
27:45
the USA. Yeah. Well, they were just just originally demos that he
27:53
recorded by himself, and when they tried to recreate it with a band,
28:00
he just felt they lost something. So yeah, some of those were intended
28:03
to be electric versions, and I think it's during around that time when early
28:11
versions of Born in the USA are worked on. But yeah, the working
28:17
with the band, they just didn't come across as how he wanted. He
28:21
thought, no, the songs would not benefit from the big band treatment,
28:23
and so yeah, we should do the stripped down acoustic treatment. But then
28:29
ultimately just decided that, well, you know, they release sounded best on
28:33
the demos and he didn't want to do proper studio re recordings of them,
28:37
so you know, the technology of the air was a little was more limited
28:41
than today, so there were some challenges in getting that cassette, which you
28:48
know, he had this on cassette and just passing it around and not taking
28:52
care of the good care of it because that wasn't what was going to be
28:55
released. They were demos, but then they decided to release it, so
28:57
they had to spend a lot of time in cleaning it up so it sounded
29:02
releasable. And I think that had he not had the commercial success he had
29:07
had immediately before, I don't know if the label would have let him release
29:11
it because it was obviously not going to be a big commercial success type of
29:15
record. But you know, I think they let him have it because The
29:21
River had done so well and he was still he was obviously just continuing in
29:26
his career, so there was going to be that other blockbuster to come.
29:30
Of course, no one could suspect how big a blockbuster, but I think
29:33
they kind of gave him a bit of a pass on that one. Yeah,
29:37
And I remember at the time it was considered just kind of shocking that
29:41
an artist would even do something like that. Nowadays, artists put out acoustic
29:45
records all the time and it's no big deal, and people think, oh,
29:48
it's interesting, you can appreciate their songwriting more or whatever things like that.
29:53
But then it was a big deal. And yeah, especially because he
29:56
seemed to deliberately put out this project that he knew wasn't going to make money.
30:03
And why would anybody do that? Right? I mean when I say
30:06
not make money, I just mean not making huge amounts of money. Obviously
30:08
it was profitable, it's still you know, it had solid sales and it
30:11
had a good critical response. It just wasn't a huge success that the label
30:18
would have preferred. But then you know, he ate it up to them
30:19
on the next one. Oh you sure did. Yeah, it went to
30:22
number three when platinum. I mean, that's not too shabby. Did you.
30:26
By the way, did you get a chance to read the book by
30:29
Warren Zan's Deliver Me from Nowhere The Making of Nebraska? No, I didn't.
30:33
Fabulous book. It's highly recommend it and it gets into and Warren was
30:38
able to meet up with Bruce at the house that he recorded the album Mad
30:41
and just phenomenal, and Warren was on this show, and he was talking
30:45
about being in that house and the carpet on the floor is the same as
30:48
it was at that time, and it just it's a phenomenal book. And
30:53
Bruce talked about how if he didn't get that out, if he didn't do
30:57
that Nebraska album, he really would have been primed to do Born in the
31:02
USA. Like he just wasn't ready yet, but he was ready with Born
31:06
in the USA and the title track to Born in the USA. Interesting story
31:11
behind this song which dates back to nineteen eighty one. Could you talk about
31:15
that it was one of the songs recorded from Nebraska too, correct, that's
31:18
that's one of the songs. Yeah, yeah, kind of yeah, the
31:22
sort of early version and gosh, the story I should notice by heart now,
31:26
But yeah, how he'd even it kind of came out of wanting to
31:30
write a song for a movie, and uh, it didn't end he didn't
31:36
end up writing it for the film then, But and it wasn't called Born
31:41
in the USA originally, And you know, he had often said that if
31:45
it came out in the sort of in a with a Nebraska style arrangement,
31:51
then people would have recognized the song for what it was you know, more
31:56
of a critique and not this celebratory anthem. So that's interesting to talk about
32:00
too. I mean, I know on some of his later compilations, I
32:05
think there is that earlier version it is, yeah on tracks, it's called
32:08
tracks. Yes, Yes, he'll and he will, he'll bust that version
32:13
out live. When I saw him live here in Connecticut, I remember he
32:15
played that version, the darker original version. It's so different than the one
32:21
that most know. It's Yeah, I think yeah, I think that you
32:25
know, people would have if I had a really different response to that song,
32:30
if it had come out like that. Yeah, probably Reagan would not
32:34
have quoted it from referred to it in his speech. Yeah, he'll think
32:37
if it had been a Nebraska type version, No, absolutely, Yeah,
32:42
that's the famous clip of ron o' reagan using it. Yeah. By the
32:45
way, the numbers are not too bad for Born in the USA seventeen times
32:49
platinum, number one in nine countries, including of course the USA. Seven
32:54
singles, and each of them reached the top ten, including the lead single,
32:59
Dance in the Dark, which reach number two. Which is funny because
33:01
I think Bruce even said when Prince passed away, he played purple Rain in
33:06
concert, and he was joking about how Purple Rain kept this. I think
33:10
the song Purple Rain kept Dancing in the Dark off off the top of the
33:15
charts at the time, I was number one, and Dancing in the Dark
33:19
was too. I think that's what he said. But anyway, so that's
33:21
a last minute hit, right, Dancing in the Dark was Was it the
33:24
last song recorded for Born in the USA? Yeah, yeah, oh yeah,
33:28
I like that one. Yeah. I like that story too. How
33:32
Bruce had thought the album considered the album finished, he was done, he
33:37
was it had been completed, but his manager John Landau told him, no,
33:43
you need a good single to launch it, and Bruce didn't want to
33:46
write anymore songs because gosh, he already even by then, he had this
33:52
huge backlog of stuff he could probably put out, you know, a few
33:54
more sets of tracks and just the four Seed. He's just with all the
34:00
things he has in his archives. Well, Steven van Zant talked about that
34:04
guy. He was like, I'm so jealous of the guy. He's got
34:07
like hundreds of songs that he writes on you know, daily's churning out a
34:12
handful of songs. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, he was not in
34:15
the mood to write any more songs, and they got in an argument about
34:19
it, and so he finally agreed, Okay, I'll write you your song.
34:22
And so you can hear that in the song, the sort of you
34:25
know, angry energy that's running underneath, which actually works for the song's advantage,
34:31
I think, And obviously Landau was right because it did. It was
34:37
it was the perfect song to launch the album with. And did you know
34:42
that went on to be a great success. Yeah, it's got this intensity
34:45
about it that I really like. Oh yeah, it's got the energy of
34:47
a guy just wanted to bust out. And yeah, hey, I just
34:52
caught the Netflix documentary on We Are the World. Did you get to see
34:54
that? Oh no, it's pretty good though. Yeah, and Bruce is
34:59
in that, and he he had just finished that massive tour for Born in
35:02
the USA, but he still wanted to be part of the recording before taking
35:07
his vacation. So you'll hear at the end of the documentary when they're finally
35:10
done, you can hear Bruce quotes, now I can go on vacation,
35:15
and because that was a grueling tour. And then he married actress Julianne Phillips
35:21
in nineteen eighty five, and you mentioned the seventy five to eighty five box
35:24
set that came out in eighty six, returns in eighty seven with Tunnel of
35:28
Love. Now, he didn't want to make Born in the Usa Part two.
35:31
That's evident in the music. Talk about the changes he makes on this
35:35
album, And I'm interested in what you think of it, because this is
35:37
my personal favorite Bruce album. Some were disappointed in the direction he took,
35:42
but he's got a different lineup. It's not the quote unquote Eastreet band,
35:46
but some members, right, yeah, that's right, it's quote yeah,
35:50
yeah, they play on it, but not as a band. Well,
35:53
I like it too because it is different. I mean see, I wasn't
35:57
following him as much as say a hardcore fan would be, and they were
36:00
so into Born in the USA and What's coming next. I wasn't, you
36:05
know, waiting for the new next Brinstein album, so he can kind of
36:08
come to it from a different perspective. Fresher ears. So yeah, I
36:15
like that. It was, you know, kind of laid back and dark
36:19
and not all big stomping ansms like Born in the USA seemed to be.
36:23
But then when you read his book, his memoir, you know, it's
36:28
even more interesting. I Mean, one thing that really came across to me
36:32
and reading his memoir is what a thoughtful guy he is, and how he
36:37
really thinks about his music and songwriting and just approaches it in, you know,
36:44
a very serious way. And you know you said, you just said
36:49
yourself about how exhausting the Born in the USA tour was, and he was
36:53
smart enough to know he didn't want to be caught in that trap. You
36:59
know, some artists just would would after that, they'd just go back and
37:04
make an album that they would be Born in the USA two, and then
37:07
have another subsequent tour like that. And Bruce afterwards, there's some interview where
37:13
he says something like even he got bruced out by that whole superstar period.
37:19
Yes, Bono said that too about himself, you know, by the early
37:22
nineties, says like, man, I'm getting sick of seeing myself on TV
37:25
and in every article. Yeah, so he wanted to take a step back,
37:30
and there is there is an adjustment that you make when you become so
37:37
big like that. I mean with Born in the USA, he became the
37:42
kind of musician that's so huge that people know who you are even if they
37:45
never buy one of your records. You're just so you penetrate media all so
37:52
deeply that people know who you are even if they have no interest in you.
37:57
And and that's an adjustment. I don't think anyone who hasn't gone to
38:00
that can can appreciate how unsettling that can be. I mean, he was
38:07
unsettled. He writes about being unsettled getting the time of NEWSOK with itself on
38:09
the covers. I think kind of sensing. You know, that seemed big,
38:14
but now things just got even huger. And then in the middle of
38:17
that you get married, so you just have just suddenly you're living in a
38:22
new situation. Certainly he'd had girlfriends and I think lived with girlfriends before,
38:28
but not as serious a relationship as a marriage. Obviously that's different. So
38:34
you know, so there was a lot going on. I think he just
38:36
wanted to step back and reassess and turn the volume down. I think you'd
38:42
say, yeah, yeah. And then as we get into the nineties,
38:45
things change. This is I was in college in the early nineties when The
38:50
Human Touch and Lucky Town, those two albums came out. Interesting time,
38:54
he did marry Patti Scalfa in nineteen ninety one. They are together to the
39:00
day, but it would be quite a while before Bruce decides to bring back
39:05
the E Street Band full time. Ninety two, he released both Human Touch
39:08
and Lucky Town simultaneously with an all new lineup. He did retain Roy Bitton,
39:14
however, Streets of Philadelphia in nineteen ninety four wins an oscar for that
39:17
brings the EA Street Band back together. In early ninety five, they're on
39:22
three new songs on his Greatest Hits package. That got a lot of people
39:25
excited, but it didn't result in the tour and the album that we would
39:30
eventually get still takes a while to get to that point. He had the
39:34
solo acoustic album The Ghost of Tom Jod, which is very similar to Nebraska,
39:37
kind of like a left turn, like okay, where's Bruce going here?
39:42
And the fans were hoping for that reunion with the EA Street Band,
39:45
and in ninety nine this is when he does get back together. You write
39:51
in the book about the two catalysts that inspired him to really get things rolling
39:55
again with his bandmates. What were those two? I just have the PDF
40:00
in front of me myself, but when is it the Neil Young concert?
40:05
Yes, I believe I can pull it up here, I think, Yeah,
40:09
I'm pretty sure it's Neil Young. He was taking his mother to see
40:13
Neil Young when he's visiting her in well, sim California, but wherever they
40:19
were, he takes her to see Neil Young and seeing a big arena show
40:23
like that made an impression on him. And then on another occasion, he
40:30
was approached by some young fans who said, Gee would really have liked to
40:34
have seen the EA Street Band because they were too young to have even been
40:37
able to see the band. And that got him thinking too about all the
40:40
people that missed out because they weren't old enough or maybe weren't born. So
40:49
so, yeah, those two things working together, I think then you know,
40:52
he realized, as has kind of happened since then, you know,
40:57
he could he could do something. The first break I think was more unsettling
41:01
for the other guys because they didn't know what was going to happen. He
41:04
didn't know himself, you know, I don't think he knew they were going
41:07
to necessarily come back together, though we probably thought they would someday. But
41:10
then one thing that was important about that reunion too, I think, was
41:14
that it showed him how okay, yeah, this could work. So after
41:19
that he kind of began to alternate regularly. He'd do stuff, he'd do
41:22
his the band projects, and then he'd do his solo projects and he could
41:27
kind of keep that going, and the other guys in the band, knowing
41:30
that, could make their own adjustments for Okay, yeah, next year,
41:34
I'm going to have to find another work because he'll be doing a solo thing.
41:37
But yeah, just sort of set them. It charted this new course
41:42
where he'd kind of do a bit of everything, and it wasn't seen as
41:47
taking a break so much as just this, this is how I work it.
41:52
Yeah, this is the story in the book is great too. He
41:54
was accosted by two young men when he left Federici's family restaurant and freehold one
42:00
night, who told him they were huge fans but had been too young to
42:02
have ever seen him in action with the East Street Band, And that's when
42:06
Bruce realized, you know, there was Yeah, there was an audience out
42:08
there. Yeah I was. I'm among that age group where I didn't get
42:14
to see him when he was at the top in eighty four, and I
42:19
had family members and friends that said they would go. They did go see
42:22
him. They're be like, oh my god, tell me about it.
42:23
What was it like? You know, it's like so into it. And
42:25
when he did get together with EAS Street Band and I saw him here in
42:29
hard For Connecticut. I tell people this all the time, I've never experienced
42:34
anything like it. When he gets up on stage, the lights go up
42:37
and he starts playing. It was like this wave of energy that was just
42:42
insane. The people were just going nuts. They just they love Bruce.
42:45
But Bruce in the EA Street Band, there's just some kind of a magic
42:49
there that you know, even he he couldn't resist it anymore, you know,
42:54
yeah, yeah, And I've noticed he doesn't tend to do this so
42:58
much. But I noticed that Paul McCartney, how you know another performer who
43:02
really loves being in the limelight that instead of doing big tours now he'll just
43:07
do these shorter legs. It's a full band tour, but he'll do it.
43:13
He'll be on the road for I don't know, like a month and
43:15
a half or something, and then he won't be on the band on the
43:17
road for a couple of months and then they'll do another short tour like that.
43:22
So he's kind of out there a lot. Now. Bruce tends to
43:24
do the big shows, the big tours, but he does so many smaller
43:29
things in between. You have all these other chances to see him as well.
43:31
Yeah, he just played if You Live on the East Coast right,
43:35
right? He just played in Las Vegas recently. It was cool. He
43:37
starts with roll of the Dice from Human Touch. That's the other thing that's
43:42
cool about his set lists. You just don't know what he's going to play
43:45
night tonight, and his band's got to be ready for that. It's kind
43:47
of like a jam band thing. It's like it's not one set set list.
43:51
It's like, okay, guys, here's what we're going to play tonight.
43:52
I would imagine that that's the case. I don't think he plans it
43:55
too far ahead. Yeah, that's someone to do that. Then you get
44:00
a sensor really, you know, doing a show instead of just like a
44:05
theatrical play or something. Yeah, Roll the Dice man Las Vegas. Perfect.
44:09
You know, that's the kind of stuff you wish every band did.
44:13
So two thousand and two of the Easter Eat Band returns for the Rising,
44:16
His first to top the Billboard charts Sons Tunnel of Love, then two thousand
44:21
and five solo album Devils in Dust. Just like you said, he kind
44:23
of goes back and forth. A number one album, followed by another solo
44:27
project in two thousand and six, We Shall Overcome the Seger Sessions number three,
44:31
and then he reels off four. Are you're a fan of that album,
44:35
the Seager one? Yeah? Well, I grew up listening to Pete
44:37
Seeger, so yeah, I know that songbook. Yeah, that's he and
44:43
he's a big fan of Seger. He then reeled off four consecutive number one
44:46
albums two thousand and sevens Magic two thousand and nine, is working on a
44:50
dream. Twenty twelve's Wrecking Ball, which I believe is the one that has
44:57
the rage against the machine guitarist on it. And I'm drawing the blank his
45:00
name. I think it's Wrecking Ball that he's or no, maybe it's High
45:02
Hopes twenty fourteen's High Hopes. I'm trying to remember now, do you remember
45:08
which? No? Off the top of my head? Torello? Oh Tom
45:13
Morello. Yeah, jeez, I can't believe I forgot his name. I
45:15
was just listening to Rage against the Machine. Yeah, he's on he's on
45:17
high hopes. Yeah, he's on high hopes. That's an interesting move too.
45:22
That's the thing about Bruce. You never know what he's going to do
45:23
next, and that was kind of out of nowhere. Now, one really
45:28
interesting chapter of the book I want to ask you about. It's regarding Bruce's
45:30
longest show. Oh gosh, yeah, I need the book. It's four
45:34
hours, right, it was overseas, it was in Europe, it wasn't
45:37
here. I know that. Yeah, I think it was four hours,
45:43
four hours. You know that. I think I think you know they he
45:46
says that he's told us, Oh, they told us that we're getting close
45:50
to breaking this record, So you know, I think they they play the
45:52
you know, throw a couple of extra verses in the song to sort of
45:55
spin it out a bit into that length. Yeah. I'm skimming through here
46:01
the book just to see exactly where that was. Four hour show and at
46:06
that time he was already into is I think he was in his sixties at
46:09
that point. Let's see where is it Bruce's longest show. Here we go,
46:15
this is in Finland, Yeah, Helsinki, Finland. Four hours unreal.
46:22
Yeah, you're right. I think he extended what the last song,
46:24
I think to make it four hours. Wow, just get right right over
46:31
that, right over that line. That's you know, like half a workday.
46:36
Yes, yeah, it timed out it over four hours, four hours
46:38
and six minutes in most accounts, but a more exacting four hours, four
46:42
minutes and forty eight seconds according to the website Bruce Bass. That's that's awesome.
46:47
You do include a website, by the way, Oh it is,
46:51
Yeah, absolutely a phenomenal website. You include his autobiography in the book,
46:57
and I haven't asked you about the personal side of Bruce that much yet.
47:01
We've covered his music a lot, but in the book he does open up
47:05
and reveal himself in new ways. Can you talk about that in your response
47:08
to the book after you read it? Well, I was surprised to hear
47:15
that he had dealt with depression, which I don't know if he had talked
47:17
about that in interviews before, but it was news to me, and you
47:23
know, that was a surprise, and I suppose it would be to other
47:27
people too, and the struggle and dealing with that. I also just like
47:31
how self deprecating he was about himself, which is always a plus. I
47:37
love this story where he talks about being in high school and people would wonder
47:44
how does this skinny, punky guy like him always have a dance partner at
47:47
the local dances, because you know, scruffy and not the latest fashions and
47:52
not a very good looking guy. But he writes that he figured out early
47:57
on that girls like to dance, so he made sure he knew how to
48:00
dance, because back then you danced a little more with regular steps. So
48:05
and I think he writes about practicing so that you know, so then he
48:08
gets a rep as a good dancer, so then of course the girls want
48:12
to dance with him. I thought that's very clever. Yeah, that story
48:15
stuck with me. I thought that was pretty smart. The one I love,
48:17
too is when he's talking about when he's writing Born to Ron in those
48:21
songs, he was living in a little tiny house. I think, right,
48:24
he was just he wrote a lot of those songs on the piano,
48:28
or he was renting. I think he was paying monthly rent someplace, right,
48:32
Yeah, he would have been. He would have been renting. I
48:34
don't think he did not own a house for the right time. In fact,
48:37
he wasn't even I don't think this is in my book, but he
48:40
mentioned in his memoir how he had been so under the radar that once he
48:46
became big, the I R. S came after him for taxes because he
48:50
hadn't really been filing any tax returns because they were all living kind of hand
48:54
to mouth and being a band, they would get paid in cash. Yeah.
49:00
Yeah. The other well, I always wondered about what he was you
49:04
mentioned high school, because he always seemed to be like he was. He
49:07
was an introvert, you know, I didn't talk to anybody. I always
49:09
got that vibe about him. But uh, but at the same time,
49:14
he hits the stage and he's he's a showman. But he never seemed like
49:17
that type of person that in his private life he was going to be somebody
49:21
that was gonna want. Like he moved to LA for a little while,
49:22
and I don't think he liked that. I think he's like, now I'm
49:25
more of a Jersey guy. I'm going back home to Jersey. Right.
49:28
He was in LA for a few years. I think it was after the
49:32
of the earthquake that they had in LA and he said, Patty said,
49:37
Okay, we're getting out of here. Yeah, yeah, I just I
49:43
can't see him fitting in in that la lifestyle. You know. It's just
49:45
he's he's more of an East Coaster. I yeah, I think it.
49:49
He says in New Jersey, everybody there just treats him like a regular,
49:52
regular guy, you know. Just he gets to go ever he wants.
49:55
Nobody's gonna bother him that much. Rounding out the the book. As we
50:00
get towards the end, you do get up to Like you said, I
50:04
think you you go right up until let's see you got you got his twenty
50:10
twenty two release, right the collection of R and B and soul covers.
50:14
I think you got that, Yeah, only the strong I think the last
50:16
entry is on the last tour, okay, because that was that had just
50:22
started. Let's see, Well, you do cover the residency too in New
50:25
York. That's the other. Springsteen and Broadway grossed over one hundred and thirteen
50:30
million dollars over two hundred and thirty six shows. Western Stars came out twenty
50:35
nineteen, which I'm a big fan of that album. I really like that
50:37
album. Number two, Letter to Letter to You that was in October of
50:43
twenty twenty, and then twenty twenty two R and B and Soul covers Only
50:46
the Strong Survive? Yeah, number eight. Yeah, so seventy five in
50:51
September. Do you see any signs of Bruce stopping? You mentioned he does
50:54
kind of now he's he's been a little smart about taking some breaks off in
50:59
between. But do you see him stopping anytime soon or what do you hope
51:01
to see and hear from him next? Well, I know on that tour
51:07
there were breaks because people were coming down with COVID and then he had some
51:13
stomach issue himself, didn't he like an aulcer or something. So I think
51:15
that kind of thing might well be catching up with the band, because you
51:21
know, they're all in there well in their seventies, maybe some are getting
51:23
close to eighty, so there will be that. But I mean, he's
51:28
always going to be recording songs, I think, as long as he can,
51:32
and obviously that's a lot less stressful and just getting involved in who knows
51:38
what other kind of projects. I mean after Yeah, I guess this was
51:43
after Obama left office. You know, he and Bruce had a podcast together,
51:47
which when you think about it, I mean when we were growing up.
51:51
Certainly, I know myself if the idea of a president and a rock
51:55
star hosting a radio show together would have seemed incredibly bizarre, right, you
52:01
know, whoever, whoever, whoever the president was, So, yeah,
52:06
that was certainly, that was certainly something most people probably didn't predict what's going
52:10
to happen. I would say, I think, I think that's true.
52:16
And he does and he stunks for a lot more causes now than he did,
52:23
say in in the seventies or even the eighties that much. So I
52:29
think, you know, I don't know if he has his own foundation or
52:32
not, maybe he'll think about doing something like that. You know, he's
52:37
always he's always been about doing the good works. And I think every year
52:42
he still plays, you know, charity shows in in his area, you
52:45
know, with the local bar, raising money for firemen or whoever. He's
52:50
always he's always going to be really involved in community. So I think that's
52:55
certainly, that's certainly in his future. And maybe uh, I could see
53:05
him, say doing another residency. Yeah, alder are in particular like those
53:09
because you're just in one place and it doesn't have to be the stayed thing
53:15
like uh, the Broadway shows were a bit more, you know, they
53:19
were more laid back and it was just him pretty much with his guitar.
53:22
But you know, you think of Tom Petty who did a residency at the
53:25
Fillmore with his band for about a month, and those were rock and roll
53:30
shows. So I wonder if maybe he might consider something like that. Or
53:35
I think Billy Joel's got that, he's got the best deal. Plays once
53:38
a month and then they fly him in in the helicopter and he plays his
53:42
gig, goes home and he's he's good. Think it's a nice paycheck,
53:45
fans are happy, everybody's happy, right, that'd be that'd be something cool
53:50
he can He could always do something in in Vegas, I'm sorry, in
53:53
Jersey. You know it's uh Atlantic city or something like that. That would
53:58
that would be cool. But I mean, hey, Bob Dylan is what
54:00
eighty and he's still he's out in tour right now. So I think Bruce
54:04
still loves to perform. He's going to do it as long as he can.
54:07
So and I hope, so let's hope we've got to have Bruce around.
54:12
So Springsteen at seventy five is out April sixteenth through Motor Books. Now
54:15
you can find it whatever books are sold. Where can people find you online?
54:20
Jillian, Well, let's see, I have a Facebook page. It's
54:23
a Jillian Gar writer and that's just you know, I guess it's like a
54:28
fan page when you follow, you don't send a friend request or anything.
54:31
And then on Twitter, let's see, I'm just at Gillian Gar. Okay,
54:37
I can find those and put the links on the show notes page so
54:39
people can reach out to. I still call it Twitter. Yeah, Oh,
54:44
I know, X is weird. Yeah right, I mean it's a
54:47
dumb name. I mean, not that I thought Twitter was so great,
54:50
but it works better for what it is. So yeah, strange from a
54:54
marketing aspect, that's kind of it's an odd choice. Well, Jillian,
54:59
thanks so much. I enjoyed having you on for the Elton John book and
55:01
this. You know, I'm a huge Bruce fan, so I was looking
55:05
forward to talking Bruce and I could talk Bruce. I could talk Bruce all
55:08
night. So I am looking forward to seeing what he does next. I
55:10
think he still puts out great music, so I'm sure you feel the same.
55:15
Yeah, and it was fun doing this, So thanks. That's it.
55:24
It's in the books.