Latest / Art of the Question / The Science of Slang and Swearing - Prof. Kate Burridge - #29

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The Science of Slang and Swearing - Prof. Kate Burridge - #29 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: When did you first get interested in language and why? W I've always had a fascination for Germanic languages, of which English is, of course, one. Not that you'd know looking at English, 'cause it looks more French, I suppose, because you've stolen so many words from French. But yeah, I was studying German, in fact. and ⁓ wanted to do German, but I got increasingly interested in the language side, not less so the literature, although I love the literature as well. And then I heard some medieval German in Walter von der Vogelweide and I thought, whoa, same language. And it's, you know, how it's it changed. So then I moved into linguistics. I didn't realise there was a subject that, you know, was the science of language. And ⁓ I was bowled over by what I was learning there. And ⁓ so I've been fascinated by language change ever since. And that's how I got into medieval Dutch. Yeah, what was ⁓ what what was ⁓ the med medieval Dutch, what what was that like and and what did it learn you about, well, the rest of ⁓ the languages you've been studying? Well, I was interested in in word order change and also changes in the patterns of negation. So, you know, the Germanic languages are all moving in the same way, in the same path, but they're going at different speeds. ⁓ and for example, the verbs moving from the end position. to the you know, near the ⁓ nearer the front of clauses and the negator used to be before the verb and now it's after. English is a bit weirder with its do, you know, do not, the do support as it's called. So anyway, I wanted to, you know, there were a lot of theories about why. so I wanted to actually track these words ⁓ over time. And I looked at about 350 to 400 years of texts and Dutch texts Early Dutch texts were better 'cause I wanted texts of instruction, you know, I didn't want beautiful literature because people can play with those patterns. I mean, they are revealing in themselves. But ⁓ yes, the the texts of instruction. So, you know, brain surgery treatises from Brabant and, you know, incredible ⁓ incredible texts, ⁓ recipe books, anything that ⁓ you know, dealt with well or sort of well, they were f factual rather than exquisite literature. So yeah, that was ⁓ an enormo I've I felt very fond of my medieval Dutch surgeons. Just relieved I live in the modern era though. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to ask what what kind of instruction, Dutch instruction manuals ⁓ would be out there from from so many years ago. I I would assume it's not some ⁓ IKEA manual but you've answered my ⁓ you've answered my ⁓ my question ⁓ already. Yeah so yeah fast in the north and the south so that I had comparisons, you know. So that was interesting as well. Yeah, because they are very very different if we if we look within the Netherlands, it's such a tiny country, right? It's it's like you can drive from the northern, very northern part to the very southern part. In three hours if if ⁓ there's ⁓ if the traffic's on your side. ⁓ which is crazy small, especially if you compare it to Australia or or the US for that matter. ⁓ but even within such a tiny little country, ⁓ the words we use in the northern part and the southern part are completely different. And they sound completely different as well. It's ⁓ really like ⁓ Almost an entirely different language. If you for example, ⁓ we like to say I'm I'm from Amsterdam, so ⁓ we like to say that in and around Amsterdam we have the major cities there, ⁓ De Haag, Utrecht, ⁓ and some other ones. So we we like to say that we speak normal Dutch. ⁓ which of course ⁓ is ⁓ yeah, opinions ⁓ differ on this ⁓ topic. But Yeah, if you compare it like if if there's like ⁓ people who live all the way s ⁓ down south, for example, if if they speak to someone who is from Amsterdam, like me, for example, they'll adjust their own language. ⁓ but if they speak to each other, then yeah, it's almost an an entirely different language. I I can't really ⁓ understand it. very well. So that's interesting to me that even in such a small, small country, ⁓ the the the the differences can be can be so so big already. You know, if you take a place like Papua New Guinea, there's something like eight hundred separate languages in that tiny place. ⁓ extraordinary. And they can be as different, they're not different dialects. They're they can be as different as Dutch and Basque or something like that. You know, they're Bas Vastly different languages. ⁓ and that that's that's one of the sort of mysteries that ⁓ linguists are trying to solve is this kind of diversity that you get. I mean, you can understand diversity. People want to, I don't know, show show they're part of a certain gang, whatever that gang is. But ⁓ you know, when it's such a small country, as you say, but in this case in in Papua New Guinea, ⁓ extraordinary differences. Extraordinary diversity. Yeah, and ⁓ be before we head into some of the topics ⁓ of today, which is slang, taboo, vulgar language even, I thought it might be nice to start super broad with with language in general, because we are the only species, at least that we're aware of, ⁓ that evolved to communicate using language the way we do, spoken word, written language. do we know why that is? I mean the the evolutionary benefits may seem obvious of course, but I I was just wondering what what your your ⁓ understanding is of of the the benefit of of using language the way we do and ⁓ yeah when we started talking and and writing, how far how far does that trace back? ⁓ well ⁓ you you'd be there are experts in this field that ⁓ look at different theories of, you know, how language came about. ⁓ so you'd be ⁓ you know, probably better placed to get someone like that, ⁓ or an anthropologist or yes, ⁓ I mean I I think with w when it comes to language, there we're always two very different functions and that's a very special aspect of of ⁓ you know human language is that there's obviously to communicate, that's his orthodox function, but there's also this kind of, you know, identity marking. And that's that's just as important and that's what gives rise too to this kind of diversity. ⁓ so, ⁓ well I'm not sure I'm answering your question, but the look, there are so many different theories about how language evolved, and I'm not sure, you know, anyone's really figured it out properly yet, but No. Yeah. No, of course. But I I like what you say there about identity marking because ⁓ that's very important, right? So what what can what what can we tell about a person about about the way they speak? Is ⁓ language indeed so closely tied to to one's identity? most certainly. ⁓ certain aspects of language perhaps more than others. I mean accent is an obvious one. And you know how when you hear, you know, if I hear an Australian accent, I'm immediately drawn to that person. If they're in a crowd, I think, ⁓ you know, ⁓ an Aussie accent. ⁓ so accent is is clear. But also words, especially, they're they're very I mean I I think I think humans are obsessed with words. Sometimes wish that they'd look at other aspects of language. But you know, if you think of all of those ⁓ yeah, those websites about the the the you know the the oldest words, the newest words, the the ⁓ words of the year, the least favorite words, the favorite words. There's so many. and people just creating words at breakneck speed at the you know, they always we always have, but particularly now. Yeah. And what's so interesting to me is that for me it comes very natural to to switch S the it's almost like a persona. So for example, when I'm with my friends or my family or when I'm with ⁓ colleagues or any other type of group, I just naturally and everyone does that, I'm not special ⁓ by any means, but we we tend to naturally Change the words we use. We we maybe ⁓ change change the pace. We we may may even slightly change our accents as well. ⁓ certainly you would be Yeah. So so so wh why why do we do it and and why are we so so good at it? Because I I don't have to think about it, it just happens. And and it's in other aspects too, isn't it? Even gesture, you know, when you're standing with someone, if they folding their arms, then you'll probably end up folding your arms too. It's something called accommodation and it's ⁓ linguistic accommodation. And it's I think one of the most interesting and important aspects to language, it's particularly ⁓ when it comes to language change. But if we think of let's say Australian English, the variety that I'm speaking, you know, it's a fairly uniform English around the country. I mean there are differences happening now, but the English hasn't been in Australia all that long. But That kind of uniformity is explained exactly through accommodation. So you would have had a a bucket load of different dialects coming across in those early days from the southwest of of England, from Ireland, from Scotland, ⁓ even from the States. But everyone's accommodating to each other and what happens there is, you know, the most marked features will disappear. and they get this kind of le what's called a ⁓ leveling effect. They sometimes call it the melting pot effect. So what you get climbing out of that melting pot is a fairly uniform dialect. And look, it's in the interest, you ask, wh why do we do it? Well, it's in the interest of politeness, but it's also in the interests of communication. It it makes sense to ⁓ accommodate so that, you know, you can understand each other better. So you will drop those more marked features out of your accent to, you know, and ⁓ to accommodate the person you're speaking to. And how does ⁓ status ⁓ play into this because I can imagine that we would accommodate to the person who is in charge or at least has the the highest status. That is my my gut feeling. But has that been studied? Is that the case? Yes, ⁓ those those sorts of s social factors are crucial. I mean in a place like Australia, which prides itself on its well, not just a cult of informality, you know, whatever the setting, ⁓ you know, w we this ⁓ we sort of shun titles and and, you know, these sort of status markers. I mean, clearly we we like to think we're egalitarian. Obviously, you know, there are many ways in which the society isn't equal. ⁓ that's very clear. However, we do have this kind of ⁓ I suppose ethos of of of eco e well it's been described as the democracy of manners or a or a shared ord ordinariness. We have a shared ordinariness. So in Australia it's less So than perhaps in other places. ⁓ and of course in English as well. I mean in Dutch you've got the two different pronouns, say, for ⁓ you, haven't you? Whether you're speaking to someone who's more elevated or older or, you know, you you would use a more formal pronoun, and then there's the informal you. ⁓ and English had that once. It's an idea. We had a a plural you and a singular you, and we used the plural you to mark formality. But all you know, all of that has gone. ⁓ Yeah, it's interesting. I was gonna say, in Australian English we have a plural you, what looks to be a plural you, which is you. ⁓ but that's actually used singularly. So I can look at you and I say, How how's you g how are you going? You know, so it's a it's it's a solidarity marker. So it's it's the opposite of what Other languages, other European languages do where they take plural pronouns to mark formality and status. ⁓ so we're taking plural pronoun and using it for a singular person. So it's it's a kind of reversal. ⁓ and it's you know, it is a solidarity marker. Yeah, but I I thi I also think when w with accommodation, ⁓ for example, we and it makes sense, right? It's it's it's not a big mystery, but for example, you have a twenty five year old who who talks to his o older boss, for example, the most likely scenario is that the the younger person will use more formal language than he or she is used to rather than that the the boss in this example will start using all sorts of slang younger people generally use. So I also feel like ⁓ location matters. Are we on the work floor or are we maybe having Friday drinks, for example? but also ⁓ who is in charge here? So even if there were multiple twenty five year old colleagues, they would probably still resort to the more formal language if the boss is around. And maybe if the boss is is is go goes home, then language will probably switch very, very fast to what they would usually speak. So that's very interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good observation. I mean it's like you know you're choosing the right tool for the job or something. You will adapt your your language on this depending on the setting and who you're speaking to. And yeah, it's it's crucial. Cont context is everything in language. Yes. Yeah. And ⁓ w If we're if we're still still talking about ⁓ accommodation, I remember ⁓ this ⁓ time that I was ⁓ on holiday with my parents. I was ⁓ I was quite young. I believe I was ten or or twelve years old and I was with my parents in Italy. even I I was hanging out with two Belgian kids and you know, ⁓ Belgian people they they speak Dutch. But they speak ⁓ f Flemish Dutch, which is sounds completely different and they use a lot of different words as well. And according to my parents, I can't really remember it myself, but after a few days of hanging out with these kids, my just generic Dutch was completely transformed. My accent was completely transformed into this Flemish sounding Dutch. So it happens really fast. yeah. So so yeah, and that was that wasn't interesting some people accommodate more than others and that there are some people who, you know, it's perhaps not in their interest to accommodate. I mean, I I notice we've got some very ⁓ well known French chefs in Australia and ⁓ even though they've been in Australia for a long, long time, it's not good you know, they they wanna hang on to their French accent. So ⁓ there hasn't been a lot of accommodation in in that respect because it's obviously, you know, everyone loves a French accent and it goes with with being a a famous French chef. Yeah, I mean I I I get why you want to be ⁓ associated by, but yeah, it that is probably also why why ⁓ the the the evolutionary benefit of accommodation is to signal that you're a part of part of the tribe and that that you're not a threat and not an not an outsider. Is that is that more or less correct? Yep. That'd be a another aspect to it indeed. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And these days sort of basic politeness really to that to let you do that. Yeah. And what about the other way around? Because I feel like ⁓ using a certain language can even change Personality. I don't know if there's any ⁓ science behind this or or someone who has studied this, but ⁓ I'm bilingual. I speak English and Dutch and I speak some other languages, but not as well as I I do with those two. and I feel like even though my Dutch is probably a bit better than my English, they're they're they're pretty similar, I I'd say. But I'm a I've I've I feel like I'm a different person when I'm ⁓ around like in when I speak in English with with with native English speakers than when I speak Dutch with my Dutch friends. I feel like there's some parts of my personality that come out more when I speak English and there's some other traits that arise when I'm Dutch. ⁓ has anyone ever ⁓ looked into that and and do we understand why that happens? No, I I you know it's nothing I've looked at myself, I'm afraid, but I ⁓ you know it it makes sense, absolutely. ⁓ and it would depend, I imagine, on when you acquired the second language. So when did you acquire English? I ⁓ yeah, I'd say ⁓ a pretty young age. I I remember we we had a few lessons in in the final grade of primary school, which is when you're you're twelve, and that was like the first formal education I had on English. But I remember ⁓ it being very easy for me because I could already understand everything in the book that they were teaching us. So I'd say that I I got some exposure ⁓ through the internet. So I would say when I was around like nine or or ten years old is when I started to and I played video games as well, right? So all the all the games were in English. It wasn't online gaming at that point, but the games were in English. So I had to know a bit of English to to understand what was happening. So yeah, around ten years old I suppose. So so what language do you swear in? That's that's ⁓ funny, funny ⁓ that you mentioned that because I swear in Dutch mostly because ⁓ I I spend ⁓ a lot of time on on Bali, Indonesia and I lived in a very international ⁓ household, if you will, with ⁓ around fifteen to twenty people. And when something goes wrong on my computer, my computer freezes or something, or I drop something off the table, I would often say hot voor domer, which is ⁓ basically the Dutch word for goddammit. And I remember this because people find it really funny because I would just speak English all the time and then when something goes wrong I would swear in Dutch. ⁓ s and so they wanted to know what that was. So I I r do resort I automatically resort to to Dutch swearing when that happens. Well there have been interesting studies done on on that. And ⁓ it's quite clear that ⁓ It gives you a more cathartic a sort of release ⁓ when it's your first language, if it's acquired, you know, ⁓ you know, if the second language is acquired later. I mean, if they're both acquired early, then ⁓ the the difference is not so marked. But and and that's that's interesting. So you think, well, why would a language you know, s you know, a swear words acquired later in life, why wouldn't they kind of give you the same release ⁓ if you hit your thumb with a hammer or something say. But it's it's quite clear that the power of these words get laid down very, very early when kids are quite young and they almost sort of get I don't know, they get stored in the brain with a kind of cultural imprint of the forbidden, you know? And ⁓ if they're not if they're not stored, they're at least accessed very differently from other vocabulary items. ⁓ Yeah, i is is that is that why we why we swear? Is it to to to feel some sort of release? Well, that's there are there are all sorts of reasons why we swear. I suppose that's the kind of what people think of as swearing when you hit your thumb with a hammer that ⁓ no second or you dispatch that email off to, you know, the entire workplace and you shouldn't have. ⁓ and their words just bubble up. I mean that that's the sort of ⁓ that's kind of described the as the expletive function. But most swearing and I've done a study of this and I know plenty of other studies have been done now, will ⁓ you know, ha have also come up with the idea that the most usual function of swearing is social. So you know, verbal cuddling, defining the gang, you know, ⁓ using these words, ⁓ yeah, to show that no animosity there, just, you know, the more you like someone, the closer you are with someone, the sort of the more ex extreme the words can be in a way. ⁓ but there are all sorts of other reasons, the stylistic reasons and the swearing but ⁓ but social swearing is the main swearing. Right. So so if I understand correctly, ⁓ normally when we don't really know someone that well, ⁓ we tend to be more formal and use the the the normal clean language and then as we get a better relationship with someone, we want to signal, hey, I feel comfortable with you. And swearing is one of the ways to signal the fact that you feel comfortable because that's not what you'll usually do. do when you just meet someone. Yes. That's right. Yeah. So it's yeah. It's ⁓ and look, we're there are the studies I know are of course done on English, but ⁓ it would be I I would imagine that that could well be the same in other languages as well. Yeah. I don't I don't see I don't see why not. Yeah. And w w so why do I also swear to ⁓ them when I'm ⁓ it was one of the questions I have. is ⁓ why do I also swear when I'm by myself? Because ⁓ I live by myself and w let's say I w I were to knock over ⁓ something from my table and I shatter a plate or something, I would probably even though I just I automatically would use ⁓ a swear word, even though there's no one to talk to. W wh why do we do that? Well that's that release that comes because ⁓ swear words ⁓ derived from the taboos of a society. So whatever kind of goes bump in the night for a society will kind of provide the ready-made material for swear words. ⁓ and so when you violate a taboo then it gives you that, you know, release. ⁓ So, you know, and and it can be something pleasurable too. So something something surprising, you know, will cause these words to bubble up as well. ⁓ and look, there are all sorts of beneficial ⁓ sides to swearing too. Then there's been lots of ⁓ research done in this air experiments. You probably know the the ice water experiment where participants had to plunge their arm into iced cold water and they were given a word of their choice, you know, could be pen or table, ⁓ and then they were then they had to do it again, poor things, and plunge their arm into ice cold water with a swear word of their choice. And they could hold their arm in longer ⁓ with the swear word. So there's you know, and th and there are other studies as well that show that the th you know, th it's there's a a benefit. It can help you endure pain ⁓ more easily. However, if you are an habitual swearer, this, then it won't work as well. This will only work if you're not not an habitual swearer. But ⁓ and the you know, the studies show that if you put people in stressful situations and you you know t n don't allow them to swear, then they will become more stressed, you know. So there are all these therapeutic benefits to ⁓ to swear. And and strength too. And I I had to do a grip test the other day to see see my strength and and I I recalled the studies that have been done where you can increase your strength by I think it's two point one kilos or something by with a well placed expletive, you know, with a well placed swear word. So Wow, so you can you can use swearing to your to your benefit, but you have to use it carefully, ⁓ don't overdo it because it will it will lose its power. Exactly. And and that's the case with any words, you know, but particularly swear words, but with insults, with the with slang even, you know, through use, they kind of get emptied of their potency or their pungency or their vibrancy or whatever, just through use. ⁓ and plenty of studies will confirm that. Yeah. So if we've if we're t ⁓ tal talking about slang, ⁓ because it it was one of the ⁓ topics of of today's discussion, what's how would you define slang? What what's the definition, working definition that we use? ⁓ it's some of these linguistic concepts are so hard to pin down. I mean, there've been pages and pages written on what is slang, and I'm not sure anyone has come to an agreement. I mean it's obviously it's in f informal language, it's colloquial language. It's has a has an important social function. It's always, you know, so it it, you know, does, like we were talking earlier, does define the gang. ⁓ it's always had that function. Slang in fact th there's some thought that it's ⁓ comes from a Dutch word, but I think it's it's not. It was ⁓ early English ⁓ it w meant underworld jargon, underworld lingo, ⁓ so it had a criminal aspect to it. And it had a secretive aspect as well, then, you know, so to t to identify outsiders, you know, ⁓ who you didn't know or or make clearly define the gang against the outsiders. So it had it had that function. ⁓ it's more usually found in vocabulary, but you can get slangy ⁓ grammar, you can get slangy sort of pronunciations of words, but Less so. It's it's more obvious in the vocabulary of a language. you know, in a in a country like Australia, as I said earlier, that has always prided itself on its informality where there's it's really not clear or or the line between formal and informal and standard and non standard and public and private, it's very blurry in Australia. So it makes it pretty hard to identify slang. ⁓ and in fact our Australian National Dictionary never branded words with colloquial or informal or slang because it was just too difficult, it was too restrictive. They they felt it was they were ⁓ the dictionary makers, the lexicographers, didn't know or didn't felt it wasn't necessary. and they couldn't do it. Interesting. ⁓ and I mean slang has a very ⁓ specific ⁓ s signaling function, ⁓ a part a part of ⁓ if you use the same slang, ⁓ you know the other persons on your team, so you you know what to expect. It's it's it's safety. ⁓ so I I understand the the yeah the evolutionary benefit to it and and and the current benefit to it. ⁓ is there Do we know how far ⁓ slang goes back? Was it when we when we started to to use like in in older pieces of of text? Is ⁓ has that always been in there? Is that so natural to to the language we create? Well, I suppose it's it's ⁓ it would have been easier to identify when ⁓ you know, with standardizing the language and with dictionaries and grammar books, et cetera. So then there was a more clear cut boundary between you know, this sort of language and ⁓ you know, ⁓ yeah, the more more formal. But you know, it w it would have always been there. There would have always been stylistic differences. ⁓ most certainly. Yeah. As I say, slang slang originally had the criminal element to it, ⁓ and then it became more broadly colloquial language. Right. And how does how does it arise? How do we go from yeah, how how do new slang words enter our vocabulary? In it w what sort of processes give rise to slang, you mean? The word formation processes? In modern English, and it'd be interesting to know whether this is the same in Dutch, the most ⁓ I suppose a word formation process that is really coming to its fore in the modern language is blending. So blending words together. ⁓ that's that was a very minor word formation process in English and gave rise to some fairly mundane kind of words like smog, blend of smoke and fog, or, you know, motel, motor, hotel. But these days, ⁓ they account for many more words and and people are having fun with it. you know, during COVID era there were total overlaps, very clever blends where you'd get something like COVID plus idiot would be a covid idiot, and that's a total overlap. And so you you're getting those sorts of blends now which you didn't before. ⁓ or y but more usually you get the sort of one word is intact and the other one there's a splinter. So frenemy, you know, friend and enemy. ⁓ but those those are being created ⁓ a very fast pace. But slang typically is short words, so you often get ⁓ slangy forms of longer words. I mean, even something like grotty in English, which was a shortening originally of grotesque. You know, sometimes they part company and you don't recognize that they were in fact one and the same word, just a shortened form. ⁓ but English also has had ⁓ doublets where you get you know, formal word on the one hand and an informal, shorter word on the other. So that'd be like ass and ass or girl and gal, ⁓ burst, bust. There are a lot of these. Daft, daft. ⁓ so the shorter one is the slangy form. So shortness is important. They're typically simple syllables. The the successful slang ones too are typically short. Right, right, because they're probably easy, easy to to remember. ⁓ yeah, we we have a lot of slang in the Netherlands because of our our ⁓ well part of it is is ⁓ history of course, ⁓ when we used to to colonize ⁓ the planet and therefore we we have a lot of ⁓ different cultures ⁓ living in our country ⁓ today and also some of them that are that actually speak Dutch still. So for example, in in the island they are now an independent island. They have been for for over 15 years. But Curacao is a is a Caribbean island where they ⁓ speak Dutch. They have their own language, ⁓ Papiamento as well. ⁓ but ⁓ it's ⁓ they have a very fun accent, that's that's one thing, but they also have Yeah, their own own words. And what you'll see happening is that we'll we'll use ⁓ those words from from their their own language from from the Papiamento, for example. But we also, for example, have a lot of Dutch ⁓ Moroccans living in the in the Netherlands and Dutch Turks living in the Netherlands, and we like it it's more a street language, ⁓ I would say urban urban language. ⁓ but we borrow ⁓ words ⁓ entire words from Moroccan for example and and integrate it into Dutch and and then all of a sudden ⁓ you have slang. So it's also like b borrowing entire words from a different language and then ⁓ use that as slang. Is that something that happens in in the English language as well? ⁓ yes, increasingly so. ⁓ we get I mean, you know As David Crystal once described English as a linguistic vacuum cleaner, you know, so it sucks up words from all over the place. ⁓ yes, you you're getting words coming into ⁓ to sort of yeah, ⁓ mainstream English from other other languages. And and other, you know, v varieties. So Australia has been exporting its slang quite successfully. ⁓ I mean selfie is an Australian contribution to the world. ⁓ you know, and a lot of our shortenings like that selfie, ⁓ poly, ⁓ budgie, that you know, that that a lot of ⁓ varieties of English are picking those up as well. I mean, also because that pattern was already in the variety. I think selfie was word of the year in the Netherlands, actually. So ⁓ around the same time as it was word of the year for the Oxford. Yeah. Because it fits the pattern nicely, doesn't it, for Dutch? And also for German, you know, so it works well. It does. And it's no surprise, like it it's selfie does have a nice ring to it. It it's it's it's short. but ⁓ why do we still use selfie today and why do other words words die? I mean you mentioned yeah, short and snappy words are more likely to to stay, but I'm I'm sure There there's there there have been some some studies on this. Well, ⁓ people often talk about filling a need and selfie would fill a need. I mean it's certainly handier than self-portrait photograph, which doesn't really trip off the tongue. But but you know, I've I've often been a bit ⁓ skeptical about that because in fact when you look at slang, it's usually a revolving door of synonyms or near synonyms. So ⁓ you know, slang will cluster. That's one thing I didn't mention earlier, but slang tends to cluster around Well, I suppose you could think of them as t taboo areas. ⁓ if we think of drink drinking alcohol, then English has amassed over the years, according to the lexicographer Jonathan Green, something like two and a half thousand terms. You know, so we didn't need the word grog, and we don't need the word booze, but they are both really successful slang expressions. Booze, probably from the thirteen hundreds, grog from the seventeen hundreds. So You know, you can't say you need those words. There's something else going on there. There's you know, so it seems to be that certain words just resonate with speakers. I I've been looking a lot at aesthetics lately, and ⁓ you know, that ⁓ as I was saying recently to some colleagues, when I was a a fledgling linguist, that was considered the kind of lunatic fringe of my discipline. But I think people are are looking at at ⁓ aesthetics now more seriously. And certainly in the area of slang, a lot of people tell me, you know, they just love the sound of it, or they love the imagery, or they even love the the mouthfeel, you know, the way it rolls off the tongue. So I this there's a lot of that there with ⁓ with words as well, with successful slang expressions. And with s the case of selfie, ⁓ it also got a big boost, a kind of celebrity boost, I suppose. There was a there was a song ⁓ I I gather it's ironic. It was called selfie and ⁓ it was it went viral, you know. So that was about the same time selfie appeared and that gave it a boost. See, the Oxford tracked, I think it was in the year two 2013, selfie increased seventeen thousand percent in that year. I mean it had been around since two thousand and two. It appeared first on a on an Australian Broadcasting Corporation blog. Someone took a selfie of himself. Whether he created the word it's not clear. S it's very hard to know with with slang. It was probably out there, you know, long before it was written down. But that was two thousand and two. So two thousand thirteen was when it really took off. And then it was certainly boosted by this song that also went viral. it's so interesting. And does ⁓ yeah, I you as you if I if we go back to to a st ⁓ aesthetics, ⁓ you just mean like The way a word looks on paper? The way the way it sounds, I think, is the way it's sounds. Okay. Okay. Yes, most certainly. ⁓ I mean writing is a kind of beautiful optional extra, but but speech is primary. and yes, it's interesting. So I've been looking, for example, at ⁓ we we did a survey where ⁓ we had about two and a half thousand people told us their favorite slang words and we asked for certain areas. One was, you know, s dim-witted human being, you know, a stupid human being. ⁓ so we got flourishing of terms, I think about 220 different items. But what was interesting was that about forty percent of those began with either D or N. And I think it was ⁓ thirty percent began with D. So what you find is that you you get some very salient slang expressions. that people love and then they start to draw in other words. So if we think of the the D words then, ⁓ like, well in Australia the top ones were ⁓ drongo, which is a good word for for dim witted human being, dill, which ⁓ is a was second favorite, and dick or dickhead. ⁓ so they they were the top three. So that's the other thing that is the the D words were the top ones that got nominated most. But what's interesting is that so dill, Australian English dill, or s someone who's a bit of a dill, ⁓ comes from silly. So sill gets remodelled to dill because it sounds better. It's it sounds much more appropriate for stupidity. So goofus became doofus. Can't explain it in terms of any sound change, but it people just did it because it so doofus sounds, you know. Much more appropriate than does Goofus. And there are lots of examples like that. And also words that will shift their meaning. So the people that did the survey gave us lots of words like doorknob. And you think, whoa, doorknob. You know, what is it about doorknob that sounds so good for a for a dim-witted human being? But it does, and of course it ticks the D box, or there's dropkick or dipstick, or all of these words that will change their meaning too, because you know, th they'll join that sort of D family, ⁓ and so the D family grows. And it was the same with the N family in early English. That's it. It's interesting. Right. Yeah, that's that's it's very interesting because it also seems to ⁓ imply that even though ⁓ preferences differ ⁓ across humans, it that we as a general ⁓ population do tend to have have Preferences as ⁓ as a species, basically. So that there are certain sounds that we generally ⁓ enjoy, contrary to what you might ⁓ believe if you ⁓ yeah, t talk about music, for example. Yes. Yeah, I mean exactly. ⁓ and and people's tastes will change over time. So ⁓ the the D words and look, it's it's even more striking when you think I think it's like six percent of words in English begin with D, and we've got thirty percent of words for stupidity beginning with D. So that's that's a striking difference. But ⁓ you know, th they came about in the sort of they started to appear in the 1900s. Before then, the rock stars were the N-words like Nidget and Ninny and Ninkumpoop, and there were hundreds of these that people just played with. And if you get a word like nincompoop, which was around in English in the 1500s, and you think, well What what's in nincompoop? Well it seems to be a kind of lexical salad of ninny and noddy poop and there's probably non compass mentis in the middle of it. A whole lot of different words that are just jumbled together. People having fun with that, people blending, more more blends ⁓ happening. ⁓ so you get a lot of that in early English, particularly of course in early times, and this would be true for Dutch as well, when there were no spelling reminders, when most people didn't write, when there were no dictionaries, no grammar books, then people were hearing these words. And just running with it and having a great deal of fun, it seems to me, when you look at them. Right. So it it may also have been easier for for different versions to arise because there nobody really knew what the correct version was. Yeah. So s slang has always been a sort of the as as described once, the kind of playground for linguistic creativity. ⁓ it's it's wonderful. How wonderfully well sometimes it's called people's poetry and I think that's a really nice way of describing slang. It it is. And and what what role does ⁓ social media currently play in in forming new slang and deciding ⁓ the slang that's people ⁓ what people use because there's ⁓ some some striking examples ⁓ more more recently, even ⁓ yeah, what what doesn't at least to my knowledge, doesn't really mean anything, but started out as young kids saying six seven and and making a a hand move with it. And that like completely took the internet by storm. And I believe it has died down a little bit right now. It's like if people use that even like ⁓ ol older people weren't you ⁓ weren't able to weren't allowed to use it anyway. That was yeah that that would be ⁓ considered cringe, another another ⁓ nice ⁓ recent slang word. ⁓ so so I feel like ⁓ some yeah the the social media can play ⁓ a big role in in in forming new slang and deciding what what sticks and and what doesn't yes it it certainly I mean there are two aspects to success I suppose for these words one is takeoff and that's where social media can be amazing so you know within Ours it's got global take up. ⁓ but will it last? It needs other things to ⁓ keep it going. So there's you know, so many slang terms that have taken off on the internet have died. And y yeah, I think the six, seven will disappear. Skibbity will probably go. you know, w ones like a maze ball's awesome source lasted about, you know, two seconds. Or or something that was a success ⁓ was the word riz. which was ⁓ shortened form of charisma and it was when Tom Holland, you know, the the is the Spider Man actor, when he was interviewed and he used the word Riz a number of times and and it took off, of course. ⁓ and suddenly it was, you word of the year and looked like it was going to be another lexical rock star. But I think it's sort of died off again. So you need other things to keep it going. 'Cause of course the thing about slang too is that it's gotta be eye and ear catching. That's the other aspect of it. So and it will wear out. It will become well, if you look at early slang, ⁓ words like clever nowadays, fun. Fun was ki was branded in early dictionaries as, you know, not a respectable word, you know, slang word not to be used in in, you know, good company. And they're just mundane. So if if the the tiny percent of slang words that survive usually become mainstream. So what I find fascinating are those ones that not only survive the tiny, tiny handful, but they remain slangy and scruffy. ⁓ so those are words like grog that I mentioned, which is, you know, normal Australian English for alcohol. ⁓ and it's, you know, it's found in other varieties as well, but it's kind of a cultural key term in Australia. ⁓ and booze as well. ⁓ you know, so that so they're still slangy centuries later. Yeah. ⁓ And and is part of the reason probably why why words like Skibity or whatever or six ⁓ will die down is because they the whole point of it, like they don't mean anything. So there's not really a use case for them other than to signal that you're part of the tribe. Yeah, that's right. And and and and if adults start using it, then that's the case of death, of course, for for younger people. Yeah. But Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, ⁓ there's a ⁓ a lovely lexicographer called Ben Zimmer, and he talks about the perfect lexicographical storm. Well, he talked about that when he was looking at the the verb to twerk. So there's there's one, ⁓ which, you know, that that dance move that I think took off when Miley Cyrus twerked her way into history with the twerking unicorn. ⁓ it had been around f I think since the nineteen nineties ⁓ as a dance move, but nobody paid much attention to to it until Miley Cyrus twerked. And then it took off. And then, ⁓ you know, will it survive? Well, you know, will the dance move survive? Who knows? But ⁓ but but this perfect part of this perfect lexicographical storm, if I could steal Ben's image, because I think it works really well, ⁓ that that I've found too with successful words is multiple sources, multiple sources that give rise to it. Sometimes it has mongrel origins. Sometimes it's the stories that people attach to the word. If it captures their imagination, people will start to create etymologies for them. Kind of creation stories that, you know, I used to rain on people's picnics. I used to say, no, that's not the etymology of of that word. ⁓ Now I don't. You know. So if you look at probably the most successful slang term of all time, I think, which is okay, which came, appeared in the 1830s in the US, and it was one of many jokey abbreviations for all correct, so it was a misspelling, and there were lots of those. Why did that one survive? Well, it became, you know, a shortening for all confirmed, another jokey misspelling or outer cash or a whole lot of things. And then something like 40, I think I've added up. 40 ⁓ bogus etymology, stories that people have come up with that explain the ⁓ the origin of this word, of course. You know, so even boxers, people who are into boxing, say, well, if you're knocked out, you're KO'd. But if you're not knocked out, you're okay. It's a boxing term, clearly. You know, so th they're they're gorgeous stories that the chronology is all wrong and but but still to me they're part of the fabric of that word, part of the history. And will explain the success 'cause clearly okay is stuck in the imagination of people worldwide now. And ⁓ so I'm sure the Dutch probably have a a st a story about the origins. J in Germany you find there are origin stories for okay. Greek stories, everyone's claiming okay. I I don't know. Like we use okay as well. We even ⁓ attach ⁓ an extra letter to it. So if we spell okay we have O K N a K. ⁓ that's more used for when you try to sound like okay, but you are kind of disappointed. So you say ⁓ okay. So it's like okay, but you're signaling like it's really not okay. It's like passive aggressive almost. ⁓ and we have okay, which is O K E. ⁓ so an extra letter there, ⁓ which we pronounce the same as okay. and that means like it's it's okay, okay, ⁓ no problem. ⁓ so so we use that as well. So that's that's interesting. But we usually if we use it in the same manner, we we attach an extra extra E there. But I I have no idea ⁓ how that came about. So I I will look into What the Dutch ⁓ story ⁓ behind the word okay is. An another ⁓ really interesting example of of of of backstories ⁓ with a certain word is ⁓ with a a more recent slang term called unk. ⁓ so people use it on social media a lot and ⁓ unk is ⁓ how I see it and how I believe what the how the word came about is just Like somebody's uncle. So it's it's like some some it's usually used for some ⁓ weirder old old dudes on social media who try something crazy or something, and people are in the comments like, hey, ⁓ slow down, Unk. ⁓ like so so that's like how I see it. ⁓ but then sometimes in the comments I read unk actually means uncle. So it's short for uncle. It doesn't mean uncle, it's UNC, it's it's from the first few letters of uncool. And there I see people having heavy debates in the comment section. No, you you're stupid. Of course it's it's from someone's uncle and then someone say no no no it's it's uncool. So that's one of those examples where ⁓ there's multiple backstories and people are unsure ⁓ which is the real one. ⁓ do you think we have these different backstories for words that are just generally more interesting and generally resonate with a larger audience? Or do you think the multiple backstories are part of the reason why certain words ⁓ stick around for longer? They they ⁓ well ⁓ b both, I think if I understand you correctly. So yes, they they capture people's imagination, they resonate with people and people then Somehow often people create I I like the way you describe it as a backstory. Sometimes they're s what are called backronyms, so sort of retrofitted acronyms. So though many successful slang will have these kind of ⁓ yeah acronyms or initialisms or abbreviations. ⁓ so and okay is one that's got a a lot of those kind of backronyms. Yeah, I I also use backstory because I probably butchered a pronunciation of Ethomology? Is is that is that how it's actually there's a ⁓ there's an even better word and I only learnt it not that long ago and it's by ⁓ a a linguist called Horn, Larry Horn, and he describes this as etymythology. So so there's a myth in the middle there, etymythology. So these are these creation myths, you know, d stories that people come up with to explain the origins. I mean something like, you know, ⁓ People will tell me that, you know, ⁓ in the Middle Ages people threw out the baby with the bath water. That's why we've got that expression, you know, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. But I assure you, in the Middle Ages people did not throw their babies out with the bath water. But that's such a good story. And humans love stories. And if if a word, you know, cri attracts these stories, then yes, it's embedded in the language then and is much more likely to survive. Super interesting. And ⁓ finally, ⁓ we briefly touched on ⁓ taboo ⁓ words. ⁓ taboo can play ⁓ yeah a role in why we why we like certain certain words, but ⁓ how how would you describe ⁓ taboo words? ⁓ what what what what kind of words are those and and and why are some words taboo? Well these are these are words For ⁓ concepts or for, you know, ⁓ things that people just would rather not talk about, as I earlier described the kind of things that go bump in the night. So the usual suspects are, you know, death, disease, ⁓ in earlier times it was dangerous animals, sex, body body parts, you know, bodily effluvia, ⁓ madness, all sorts you know, so there's a whole bucket load of these things. ⁓ and they but they will change over time and they will be different around the world. I think the most robust taboo, perhaps I I think it's a universal, would be people eating. So I think people eating is is the biggest taboo of all. ⁓ and and so, you know, we you know, if if we want to talk about these things but we ⁓ want to tiptoe around them, then we use a euphemism rather than the taboo word or the what's sometimes called a dysphemism. So the The more direct term. And it's these taboo words that will supply languages with their swear words. So I think Dutch has swear words or swear phrases that ⁓ invoke deadly disfiguring diseases, which English used to have. So a pox on you, for example, but it could be, you know, more modern illnesses too. that's that's an idiom that English has lost, but I think modern Dutch still has it, is that right? ⁓ yeah, well ⁓ most of our of our best swear words are are terrible diseases. Yeah. We have tearing which is an old ⁓ disease. ⁓ I think the most famous one if if we if we talk about ⁓ swear words and and taboo has gotta be conquer, which ⁓ sounds ⁓ it's it's cancer, so it's it's not an old disease. It's unfortunately still around, but I think part of the reason why people use it is also because it does it it rolls off the tongue. But it sounds powerful. It it it sounds like it has a even though it's a horrible disease, it does have a certain ring to it. And I think that's part of the reason why ⁓ it's such ⁓ word that people still use even though it's such a terrible disease. It's ⁓ you have the taboo, you have the shock factor, but then also it just sounds ⁓ really yeah, it can really relieve. When you say it it it it it does have a certain relief. So it's horrible. We use we use terrible diseases, even modern diseases, ⁓ all the time. But ⁓ yeah, is is that unique? Or aren't there more languages that use diseases? Well I think other I know of other Indo-European languages that do, but and as I say, English did once. ⁓ but we've lost that ⁓ idiom now. So I always say to you know, ⁓ English speakers that they should ⁓ be more grateful for the the swear words that we have. You know. At least we don't you know we don't say a pox on you, which when you think about it, you know, it was I don't know, smallpox or syphilis. Either way, it was probably inevitable death for the person in the time that people used to say a pox on you. Yeah. No, w we we didn't start using that with with either covet or ⁓ now the the the Honda virus, what's what's it called? So ⁓ maybe maybe that one ⁓ will be integrated. ⁓ are there some some dangers ⁓ when when words become ⁓ taboo and when we start euphemisms? Because I believe you also ⁓ are working on helping to get certain words out of taboo when it comes to like mental health and and depression or or is that ⁓ incorrect? Yes, well my mental health is an area that is a big taboo and ⁓ I've been looking recently ⁓ we have a project at Monash looking at ⁓ the language used by older people to talk about their mental health because older people ⁓ you know well are reluctant. There's a stigma attached to mil mental illness, but particularly for that age group. So they will use camouflage language, ⁓ you know, sort of ⁓ to p talk about their nerves or, you know, I'm not quite myself or so y yes indeed, ⁓ the danger there is that symptoms go undetected and the treatment doesn't come in time. So that's why we're trying to look at ⁓ you know, what language, what what are the metaphors that that older people will use to talk about their mental health? Usually it's not talking about it at all. ⁓ that's we find so, you know, we actually we created a podcast called Breaking Taboos, and ⁓ many that we interviewed for that podcast said that this was the first time they'd ever talked about their mental health, particularly men who were most reluctant. Yeah, that's super ⁓ super important. So it's more about ⁓ understanding the language and the synonyms people use, the euphemisms people use, so we can diagnose the actual meaning of their words ⁓ better, understand it better, ⁓ rather than just getting certain words out of taboo, which would seem like a very difficult task. Yes, yes. I mean words will stop being taboo. ⁓ sometimes with time, ⁓ you know, just just through use, they'll wear out and have to be replaced. ⁓ but also because taboos will change. So English, for example, once had, you know, they the most robust swear words would have been like in Dutch now, the religious-based swear words. But they they stopped, you know, the packing a punch. They wore out, and of course, you know, religious significance wanes and then replaced by physically, sexually. based words, they don't pack much of a, you know, punch anymore. And the taboos around sex and, you know, body parts and, you know, that that that's that's ⁓ diminishing now. So I suppose the big taboos now in the English speaking world is what my colleague Keith Allen describes as ist language, so racist, sexist, ageist, religionist language. ⁓ those are, you know those words are so powerful that they will have legal consequences. But Other words, you know, ⁓ and it's extraordinary what you get now on television and radio in Australia, th you know, th th those sorts of ⁓ obscene words, you know, that they go sneak under the radar now. And you know, if if they go to court, if there's an obscene language charge, they usually get thrown out of court because they're not considered ⁓ they might be considered impolite, but not ⁓ not legally obscene, whereas the others do. Yeah, no, that makes ⁓ makes sense. ⁓ Kid, this was so ⁓ incredibly interesting. Is there anything we haven't touched on that ⁓ that that you would still like to mention or emphasize now that we're talking about ⁓ language? it's a huge topic. Yeah, there's plenty more to talk about, but yeah, ⁓ hopefully you can get something out of this discussion. You'll be able to weave your podcast magic, will you? And ⁓ and how how long are your podcasts? ⁓ they are ⁓ about an hour, so I usually aim aim to go ⁓ to go for an hour. I feel like ⁓ that's a good length to ⁓ really ⁓ yeah cover some ⁓ cover some ground ⁓ without it being too exhausting that you yeah have to do a video call for ⁓ three hours ⁓ let's say. Well I hope you can get an hour's worth out of my prattle. Yeah, no, it's ⁓ it's ⁓ it's fantastic. ⁓ where can people go if they wanna keep up with your ⁓ work? I'm not very good at the social media side of things, but ⁓ the I do have ⁓ you know, one ⁓ a website attached to the university that has publications, but people can write to me. And certainly the podcast, Breaking Taboos, ⁓ is up on, you know, all the podcast platforms. So ⁓ Perfect. I'll I'll put it ⁓ I'll make sure to ⁓ to put it ⁓ in the show notes. ⁓ thank you so much, ⁓ Kate. This was ⁓ great.