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Interesting Times: Colombia Edition · New Thinking for a New World

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to New Thinking for a New World, a Tilburg Foundation podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I am Alan Stoga, your host.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Each week I bring you conversations with people who think differently about the great issues that are shaping our world.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Geopolitics, disruptive tech, mass migration, the changing climate, culture wars, all of it is grist for our mill.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy listening.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I also hope you will let me know what you think.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: and that you join the conversation at tellbergfoundation.org.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: And now for today's episode of New Thinking for a New World.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: It is trite but true to say that we live in interesting times.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Personally, I think we are blessed by that reality because that means great change is possible.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: But most political leaders in most places seem to be struggling with how interesting things really are.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Are the problems just too great or are the leaders just too small?
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: My guest today is well positioned to discuss the challenges of leadership in the twenty-first century.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Paula Moreno was minister of culture in the government of Alvaro Uribe in Colombia.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: In fact, she was the first woman Afro-Caribbean minister in her country's history.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Welcome, Paula, to new thinking for a new world.
• 1:30
  Speaker 0: Thank you, Alan.
• 1:31
  Speaker 0: It is a pleasure to have this conversation with you.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: You are part of a government that contributed to ending Colombia's internal war and then a leader for years in building a new country in which Afro-Caribbean people had opportunities to become truly full citizens of Colombia.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Colombia seemed to be on a path towards peace and prosperity.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Is it still?
• 1:54
  Speaker 0: I think so.
• 1:54
  Speaker 0: I think so because we haven't stopped working for doing that.
• 1:58
  Speaker 0: And I feel that still we have challenges in terms of the art conflict.
• 2:04
  Speaker 0: Still we haven't built a sustainable piece in all the regions of the country.
• 2:09
  Speaker 0: But no doubt we have moved forward.
• 2:11
  Speaker 0: We have made progress.
• 2:14
  Speaker 0: And I definitely believe we are now in a good path in many ways.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Are the problems just too great or are the leaders just too small?
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: What do you think?
• 2:25
  Speaker 0: Oh.
• 2:26
  Speaker 0: That's such a question.
• 2:28
  Speaker 0: I think it's a combination.
• 2:30
  Speaker 0: It's a combination because I think that we don't have, I mean, we have many people in positions of powers, but a few leaders.
• 2:37
  Speaker 0: And I think there is a difference there because to have or to hold a position of power, it doesn't mean that you are a leader, a general leader.
• 2:47
  Speaker 0: But I definitely believe that we need to do better and that this moment is forcing us to really shape the depth of our leadership in a more effective way, in a more strategic way, in a more long-term way.
• 3:05
  Speaker 0: I definitely believe that we have too much rhetoric and not much execution of vision in our leadership.
• 3:16
  Speaker 0: And I feel that these moments have shown us how we can lose so many things, we can just be all cornered because of the pushback in many regards and that we need to execute better and to sustain the progress that we had made better.
• 3:34
  Speaker 0: So I feel that it's a whole combination, but I would differentiate because I feel that there are no many leaders in this world in many ways.
• 3:42
  Speaker 0: There are many people in position of power, but no many leaders.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: I think that's a perfect point.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: You know, President Trump can be blamed for lots of things, and he gets credit for a few things, but if there's more blame than credit, I would argue.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: But he's not guilty of turning politics into performance art because it's been that way for too long.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: And I'm thinking about things like the UN General Assembly, the upcoming climate meeting in Belem, lots of noise, lots of rhetoric, lots of acting out, but almost no acting.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Too many politicians think they're actors, and some of them are actually good actors.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: As actors, perhaps even brilliant, but as leaders, as you say, not so good.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: How do we as citizens do something about that, or can we?
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Are we just stuck with what we've got?
• 4:36
  Speaker 0: Because we are all in this existential crisis, no?
• 4:39
  Speaker 0: And we all feel, or I feel, very... very, how can I say, very compelled to also as what kind of leader I'm in these moments of crisis, of all this converging crisis that we are facing in many ways, no?
• 4:56
  Speaker 0: And I just, I come to several things.
• 5:01
  Speaker 0: First, how can I focus on building the future today that I want to see?
• 5:07
  Speaker 0: Because I feel that part of the problem today is that There are so many distractions.
• 5:13
  Speaker 0: Everything is urgent.
• 5:15
  Speaker 0: Everything is kind of, you know, we are in the end of the world in so many ways.
• 5:19
  Speaker 0: Every single day there is a new thing.
• 5:22
  Speaker 0: And how I really get the things that I can do done and effectively with more passion, with more intention, with even in a better way.
• 5:34
  Speaker 0: And I feel that that's one part because I feel that if we all get this courage hopeless.
• 5:41
  Speaker 0: and also feel that there is nothing to do, then what?
• 5:45
  Speaker 0: But also, if we get into all this massive overwhelming information and what I would call personalization of issues, then we don't get the most from this moment.
• 5:58
  Speaker 0: So for me, one thing is try not to get so distracted and even be more intentional and understand that I have this moment to do the things I need to do.
• 6:10
  Speaker 0: and that tomorrow I don't know, because all the answers that you mentioned, for me, that's key.
• 6:16
  Speaker 0: And the second is to not focus on persons in this moment.
• 6:22
  Speaker 0: I'm not focusing on persons, but what really brought us here, what we didn't see, what are we missing, what do we need?
• 6:33
  Speaker 0: And I feel that for me, that's the deeper question.
• 6:36
  Speaker 0: And just to give you an example, Alan.
• 6:38
  Speaker 0: with the USAID crisis that, you know, I'm a founder for an organization that even had approved, like, I received the approval of last year of five million grants for the next five years.
• 6:51
  Speaker 0: That was key for the sustainability of visible hands, the foundation that I am leading that I founded for doing key work.
• 6:59
  Speaker 0: So now we receive this year that we don't, you know, that we don't that USAID will disappear everything.
• 7:06
  Speaker 0: Yeah, it wasn't the way to do it.
• 7:09
  Speaker 0: It wasn't, you know, like this human approach to close, to say goodbye, to, you know, to also respect what people are building.
• 7:19
  Speaker 0: But at the same time, it faced us with a reality that we don't have philanthropy, major philanthropy in Latin America, that much of the work that an organization like Visible Hands does is based on the U.S.
• 7:35
  Speaker 0: money.
• 7:36
  Speaker 0: that the advent of black and indigenous people was mainly funded by the U.S.
• 7:42
  Speaker 0: And I feel that's also complicated.
• 7:45
  Speaker 0: You know, that's also complicated.
• 7:47
  Speaker 0: To rely on the other people with the money to do your things for your country.
• 7:52
  Speaker 0: And I feel we are facing this kind of existential question that, yes, can go to people or particular names, but in particular, I think are more existential questions for us.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: There are several... strands that I'd like to chase.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: One is the personalization of issues.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: One is the need to remodel.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: And one is the dependence question.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: Dependence is an old issue in development.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: It has been an issue for decades.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: I was stunned when the South Africans after AID disappeared, complained about all these people that were going to die in South Africa rather than do something about it.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: that they literally couldn't shift from, it's our people, it's our problem, and yes, for the grace of God, someone was helping pay for this, that someone just disappeared, so therefore these people are gonna die, rather than, oh my God, it's our problem, let's go sell it.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: And that's essentially what you just said.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: We're at one of these moments where institutions processes protocols of the past, are disappearing, they're changing.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: And it isn't all Trump, but Trump is a convenient boogeyman.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: But the fact is, they're changing.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: And so how do you, as a leader, how do we get people like the South Africans to say, listen to what you just said.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: You just condemned your people to die because Donald Trump shut off the aid.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: What?
• 9:29
  Speaker 0: That's the thing.
• 9:30
  Speaker 0: And I feel that we need to have this conversation.
• 9:33
  Speaker 0: beyond people because that's the deeper issue.
• 9:38
  Speaker 0: You know when my team, the day that we received this very aggressive letter, my team was like, Paula, now I have been working twenty years with U.S.
• 9:49
  Speaker 0: money for racial equality in Colombia.
• 9:52
  Speaker 0: It's not possible that we don't get the investment of Colombians on these issues.
• 9:58
  Speaker 0: I knew it.
• 9:58
  Speaker 0: that many Colombian organizations would not invest in the advancement of black and indigenous people.
• 10:04
  Speaker 0: I knew it.
• 10:05
  Speaker 0: But it is that part that I feel we need to have in this conversation, because any single human being will pass in one moment or the other.
• 10:16
  Speaker 0: But the issue is still there.
• 10:19
  Speaker 0: And here there is an opportunity to see that.
• 10:21
  Speaker 0: And I also had this conversation with some of my African friends.
• 10:26
  Speaker 0: That was like, okay, how are we going to channel this humiliation to do something and to be better at being autonomous in our agendas?
• 10:36
  Speaker 0: How are we going to channel that?
• 10:38
  Speaker 0: How are we going to use this moment of humiliation where we all feel that we are not treated with respect, with all these things, but also we channel in order to say, okay, now I invest in this because South Africa or Colombia are not poor countries.
• 10:54
  Speaker 0: We have to say that.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: I'll give you an example.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: I know a hospital in Uganda that had
• 11:02
  Speaker 0: seen
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: a while ago that their funding sources from outside Uganda might become problematic.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: So of all things, they started a coffee company.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: And the guy who's running the hospital is also now running a coffee company.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: So he has a stream of income, a very successful coffee company actually, a stream of income.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: whose purpose is to sustain the hospital.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: So it is new thinking.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: It is saying, okay, the last thing I want to do as a hospital administrator is learn how to grow coffee and process coffee and sell coffee, but I won't have a hospital if I can't find some income.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: So it isn't, in his case, he didn't say, okay, oh my God, I have to shut the hospital down because there's no money.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: And he didn't say, oh my god, I've got to go find a Nugandan to write a check because the Americans aren't writing checks anymore.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: He actually completely reinvented the model.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Now, I don't know where else and how else and what else can be done, but I'm pretty sure that we have to find a way to stimulate that kind of thinking.
• 12:06
  Speaker 0: Yes, autonomy.
• 12:08
  Speaker 0: And then it is based on that kind of new ways of doing things.
• 12:13
  Speaker 0: And of course, it's paralyzing.
• 12:15
  Speaker 0: It was a lot of money.
• 12:17
  Speaker 0: But also there are so many questions, like in terms of disabled society, governments haven't said a word.
• 12:25
  Speaker 0: Most governments haven't said a word about many NGOs disappearing and trying to see how they manage the goodwill and the aid that many of these NGOs were doing in these countries.
• 12:38
  Speaker 0: But governance is, you know, like, because I feel sometimes We get so much distraction fighting about the general, but all these things are critical where we can do something because seven hundred million dollars a year of USAID was money, but compared to the Colombian budget, we can do something.
• 12:58
  Speaker 0: But what is the conversation we are having?
• 13:00
  Speaker 0: And I feel that's key, this new thinking, this retooling, re-energizing, and redefining many of the system like philanthropy.
• 13:11
  Speaker 0: like, mutualism, because already we knew that the UN was in a crisis.
• 13:16
  Speaker 0: I mean, we knew that.
• 13:18
  Speaker 0: But you know what?
• 13:19
  Speaker 0: We knew that.
• 13:20
  Speaker 0: So what I'm saying is, what are the deep conversations we are having, despite all the craziness and all the things that we get daily, but that we need to have a conversation about those topics that are the long-lasting topics of our era?
• 13:38
  Speaker 0: So how are we going to do that?
• 13:40
  Speaker 0: That's my point.
• 13:43
  Speaker 0: What do war lessons from Gaza, rethinking education, peace in Ukraine, and visionary leadership have in common?
• 13:51
  Speaker 0: They are all themes from recent episodes of this podcast.
• 13:55
  Speaker 0: Check out more episodes on tellbergfoundation.org or on a platform of your choice.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: My own theory is that most of us Certainly in the global north and to a considerable extent everywhere, have lived over the last decades in conditions in which the next year was almost always better than the last year.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: It really has been a period of amazing development and growth.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Even if we moan and groan about any given year, if you look back ten years or twenty years, almost everybody's in a better off condition in Colombia.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: You went from war to peace, which is just an astounding transformation.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: You managed to grow as an economy.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: You started making in-court and in-roads into health and welfare and everything.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: And so we forgot how to make trade-offs.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: We forgot that leadership is about choosing A or B, not A and B and C and D. And I think that really is part of the problem, so that when you, when AID disappears, many organizations just said, oh my god, what could we do?
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: There's no money.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: We have a problem, but no money, so we're dead.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: We have no agency whatsoever, but they never had agency.
• 15:21
  Speaker 0: And you know, Alan, I have worked in the Pacific Coast of Colombia that has been the center of the conflict.
• 15:27
  Speaker 0: And I was three weeks away, three weeks ago in Tumaco in the... frontier with Ecuador, with the communities.
• 15:35
  Speaker 0: And yeah, many organizations are suffering because of the main source for peace prevention was USAID.
• 15:44
  Speaker 0: But at the same time, people say, OK, we will do it.
• 15:47
  Speaker 0: despite that we have no resources.
• 15:49
  Speaker 0: We will do it.
• 15:50
  Speaker 0: We have always done.
• 15:52
  Speaker 0: And for us, it has always been difficult.
• 15:55
  Speaker 0: And we continue and we do and we find ways.
• 15:59
  Speaker 0: And I'm not romantic about this kind of lack of resources.
• 16:03
  Speaker 0: But what I'm saying, there are many communities that despite all the things that are happening, they keep going.
• 16:09
  Speaker 0: And they keep trying ways to build hope in the way that they can.
• 16:14
  Speaker 0: And I feel that we are all called to do that.
• 16:18
  Speaker 0: That also this brings many opportunities for us to also renew our thinking, as you were saying.
• 16:24
  Speaker 0: and also try to understand, and for me, you know, with my foundation, because we have like two, three more years of funding to survive, but I was telling my team, now that we have the opportunity, we need to do it all, even with more intention and more intensity, and to do things, because one of the things that we need to move is to have so many conversations and not doing things.
• 16:49
  Speaker 0: We need to do things, to build the future that we want, because otherwise... We will be all defending ourselves, trying to figure out this moment, you know, with every single issue that comes every day that you think like this is a movie or this is surreal, this is a reality, but this is a reality, but also to build the reality that you can, that you want.
• 17:12
  Speaker 0: And I feel it's a very critical balance for leadership today and how we as leaders also own part of the responsibility of this moment.
• 17:23
  Speaker 0: You know, what is our responsibility?
• 17:24
  Speaker 0: Because it's kind of easy to say, OK, it's all these crazy people responsibility.
• 17:31
  Speaker 0: But there is also a responsibility that we own.
• 17:33
  Speaker 0: And I feel that reflection can help us also to move to the next moment and to see the opportunities of this moment.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: There also seems to be... an institutional problem in a lot of places.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: We had institutions that were built for different era in many cases, and we let them atrophy.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: We didn't keep on investing in the institutions.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: In Columbia, clearly, and I don't know the virtues of his argument, President Petro has been arguing that the institutional framework just doesn't work.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: in the way of progress, not contributing to progress.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Now, put aside whether that's right or wrong, it's clearly the argument he's making, and has the potential for a constitutional crisis, et cetera, et cetera.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: But do we have, in general, maybe in particular in Colombia, do you see this need to reinvent some of these institutions at the local, national, regional, global levels?
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: in order to just get on with doing stuff, which is what you're arguing for.
• 18:41
  Speaker 0: We need more people to execute a vision.
• 18:44
  Speaker 0: And I feel that, and to manage our institutions, unfortunately, in this government, we have had sixty ministers.
• 18:53
  Speaker 0: That's a lot of rotation.
• 18:54
  Speaker 0: I mean, how do you build an institution with this level of instability?
• 18:58
  Speaker 0: Even if you change the framework, even if you change the law, you need a... technology, sustainable, that can really execute a vision.
• 19:09
  Speaker 0: that is key for any, I mean, I was in government and I understand bureaucracy and I understand, but also that you can execute a vision, but you need a group of managers that really execute that vision.
• 19:24
  Speaker 0: And yes, sometimes the law can help, the policies can help, but I feel that sometimes we get too much in the rhetoric.
• 19:33
  Speaker 0: of what should be done.
• 19:35
  Speaker 0: And when we have power, we need to do what it needs to be done and does not rely exclusively on legal frameworks, but in having the people with experience that can really execute a vision.
• 19:49
  Speaker 0: I think that's what we have learned this year as well.
• 19:52
  Speaker 0: But sometimes in government, you can execute a vision very quickly when you have a plan when you have an agenda, when you start from the first day, and when you have a team that can execute that vision.
• 20:05
  Speaker 0: Then what we need is these kind of people to be in a position of service with high ethical standards, with a human approach.
• 20:16
  Speaker 0: But I feel that many, for many governments, even for the Colombian government, we need to be more executive and more efficient and more clear to develop, to do with power what you can materialize for the wealth of the people, for the welfare of the people.
• 20:32
  Speaker 0: I think that, for me, I feel that we have strong institutions in Colombia, despite all the things, but sometimes we meet people who execute the vision in a very quick, smart, and understanding the urgency and the needs of the people.
• 20:55
  Speaker 0: I feel that, for me, is that more critical.
• 20:57
  Speaker 0: the frameworks.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: I saw a story recently in Al Jazeera, which quoted Commander Ricardo of the ELN, and he surprised me, quote, there's never been peace in Colombia.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: What we have is the peace of the graves.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Now, he's the commander of the ELN, so, and where he's coming from.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Is there peace in Colombia?
• 21:26
  Speaker 0: No.
• 21:27
  Speaker 0: No, I mean, we have had a very relative piece.
• 21:30
  Speaker 0: Because when you don't change the structural conditions, then you change one conflict for other.
• 21:38
  Speaker 0: One group for other, because there is the lack of jobs, there is the lack of opportunity, that all these illegal networks channel for a continuing process of conflict in the country.
• 21:52
  Speaker 0: So, I mean, we are in a better position in many ways.
• 21:56
  Speaker 0: but we still don't have this deep lasting peace that we dream in recent years.
• 22:04
  Speaker 0: We still are fighting for that.
• 22:06
  Speaker 0: We still are trying to build that.
• 22:08
  Speaker 0: And also with this complexity that now you don't have a group, you have many groups and many transnational networks in the whole process.
• 22:17
  Speaker 0: So it's still not a sustainable peace, I would say.
• 22:24
  Speaker 0: We have tried, and I feel very proud that we have tried, but it still is a process.
• 22:31
  Speaker 0: That's what we learned, no?
• 22:32
  Speaker 0: That it's not a moment.
• 22:34
  Speaker 0: That it's a process, and it will take generations to build that piece, because we need to change the structural elements that nurture the conflict in our country, like the economic part, like the lack of infrastructure part, all the spaces that armed groups take, and dominate communities still.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: In effect, that's what you're trying to do with the nonprofit that you founded, that you run still today.
• 23:04
  Speaker 0: Yes, you know, not to be like violence, you have different types of violence, no?
• 23:10
  Speaker 0: Not being visible and seen as you mentioned as a citizen is part of the violence that perpetuate the armed conflict in Colombia.
• 23:22
  Speaker 0: It's not random that the Pacific Coast and other areas with indigenous and Afro-Colombian communities are some of the most critical areas where armed groups are very powerful.
• 23:35
  Speaker 0: It's not a connoisseurs.
• 23:37
  Speaker 0: So yes, I built this organization believing in that, that Colombia needs us, needs Afro-Colombians and indigenous people.
• 23:48
  Speaker 0: And also that we need to share power and that we need to perform power and make this country realize that the country needs us for moving forward.
• 24:00
  Speaker 0: And yes, it has been a journey of fifteen years with more than twenty-eight thousand people that have participated.
• 24:07
  Speaker 0: And many of these people have been ministers, mayors, are now in different positions of power.
• 24:12
  Speaker 0: And then visibility becomes a generational quest, no?
• 24:17
  Speaker 0: I know we are still in the process, but we are more visible now that we used to be fifteen or twenty years ago when I was the first black minister in the history of the country.
• 24:27
  Speaker 0: So that changed the whole understanding of the country as just one group or one elite, but saying we are
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: more.
• 24:40
  Speaker 0: And even we have now, I mean, a lot of participation in the current government, for example.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: And all of that is incredibly important and positive and used the right way, progressive.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: And I mean it progressive.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: On the other hand, we've got all of this noise going on.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: that is incredibly threatening.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: We've got American warships floating around offshore.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: We've got fast boats being blown up purposefully and randomly.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Nobody knows.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: We've got your president is sanctioned.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Supposedly the aid is cut off, although it turns out it's not really cut off, it's just been announced that it's going to be cut off.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: All of that is scary and potentially dangerous.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: And I would think as a Colombian, as you look at what's going on, how worried are you?
• 25:36
  Speaker 0: Being a Colombian citizen has always been complex, particularly in my case that I have worked.
• 25:44
  Speaker 0: in the public sector and in many of the areas where the armed conflict is still alive and is still very present.
• 25:54
  Speaker 0: So maybe for me, I have been always in this death and life kind of middle way in which every single day you know that you are facing this, that you cannot give it for granted.
• 26:12
  Speaker 0: what you do, your life, and your work, and everything.
• 26:15
  Speaker 0: So I feel that that helps me to also face this moment with a sense of reality that, of course, is threatening.
• 26:25
  Speaker 0: Of course, it is complex.
• 26:29
  Speaker 0: It is not easy because, of course, Columbia from the geography and the complexity of the country is not like... It's complex that we can have... are warring the same dimensions as other countries.
• 26:44
  Speaker 0: But it is a possibility.
• 26:45
  Speaker 0: We now know that anything can happen in any moment.
• 26:49
  Speaker 0: And in particular, this year will be very, very complicated because we have elections in less than nine months.
• 26:56
  Speaker 0: Because, you know, it's kind of this election, Colombia.
• 27:01
  Speaker 0: during election period, you see we have the assassination of one of the presidential candidates.
• 27:08
  Speaker 0: I mean... The external and the internal are very, very complicated.
• 27:14
  Speaker 0: So I see it, but one thing that you learn when you are Colombian is to be resilient, is to try to do it today what you can do to build your country.
• 27:24
  Speaker 0: And that's what I'm focusing on.
• 27:27
  Speaker 0: Because otherwise, what you just mentioned, everything can be real, potential.
• 27:33
  Speaker 0: You don't know if it's just playing with your psyche.
• 27:38
  Speaker 0: You don't know.
• 27:39
  Speaker 0: I mean, it can be as real as not real that the only thing I am to find this piece of mine and try to be focused and try to be effective.
• 27:51
  Speaker 0: I just decided to focus on what I can do today and seeing, of course, that the future is not guaranteed and that everything can happen.
• 28:03
  Speaker 0: do not allow people to play around with my psyche because otherwise I will be paralyzed.
• 28:07
  Speaker 0: And that's the worst thing that can happen.
• 28:11
  Speaker 0: And I try to also deliver that message to my team, to the people I work with, because we still have so much things to do and so much hope to build that we cannot afford to be paralyzed by all the news and all the things that we see.
• 28:28
  Speaker 0: We see and they are real.
• 28:30
  Speaker 0: But I don't know the level of execution of many of the things in the medium and long term.
• 28:36
  Speaker 0: And I hope not, of course, because a word is just as the word... I mean, we have had a word in a different way.
• 28:43
  Speaker 0: But this is just getting things worse.
• 28:46
  Speaker 0: So I just... I hope not, and I try to work for that not to happen.
• 28:53
  Speaker 0: But also, we don't know.
• 28:55
  Speaker 0: I mean, we don't know.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: And no one can know.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: But you can hope.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: And it's an unfair question.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: But if you think a couple years out, two, three, four, five years, what do you hope happens?
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: And what can you do to make that hope real?
• 29:14
  Speaker 0: I think we need better leadership in general.
• 29:18
  Speaker 0: Leaders that are more focused on service than on egos.
• 29:25
  Speaker 0: Even if they are right in their positions, but I just feel that we are lacking this kind of leadership that is really focused on the people, on the service, and that really build a sustainable hope and peace and become more moral figures.
• 29:45
  Speaker 0: I'm just missing that, and I feel that if we don't have that everywhere, because in different dimensions we need that everywhere, we are lost.
• 29:56
  Speaker 0: I definitely, that's my hope that... Because I see many Colombians and I see people all over the world trying and pushing and investing in solidarity with a big humanity.
• 30:11
  Speaker 0: But I feel that the leaders do not match that critical mass of people trying to do good things.
• 30:18
  Speaker 0: And I hope that in a few years we can have a new generation of leaders, energetic, enthusiastic, pragmatic.
• 30:28
  Speaker 0: that can really serve the people in a better way.
• 30:31
  Speaker 0: So that's my dream.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I think we should end with that dream because obviously I share that hope.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: I think everyone listening does.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: The challenge is what can we do to help get there?
• 30:46
  Speaker 0: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 30:47
  Speaker 0: Because sometimes we are calling other people to kind of raise awareness and be more ethical and everything.
• 30:55
  Speaker 0: But we also need to do more and be more.
• 30:57
  Speaker 0: That's definitely a reality.
• 31:00
  Speaker 0: So in that business of hope as you are, and I hope that we will get right, this new generation will be getting better.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Paul Moreno, thank you very much for this conversation.
• 31:13
  Speaker 0: Thank you, Alan.
• 31:14
  Speaker 0: It was a pleasure talking to you, and thank you for having me here today in these very trying times.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this episode of New Thinking for New World.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: I'm Alan Stoga, podcast host, and I look forward to your joining our next conversation.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Remember, tell us what you think at tellbergfoundation.org.