Latest / When Will They Learn? / Episode #6 Facing the Manosphere

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Episode #6 Facing the Manosphere · When Will They Learn?

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to When Will They Learn?
0:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm Greg Ashman.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: And I'm Katie Wade.
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This is a podcast where we explore what's trending in the world
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of education.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: In each episode,
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SPEAKER_00: we discuss podcasts,
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articles and opinion pieces that are shaping education
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discourse at the moment and
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SPEAKER_00: examine these through a science of learning lens.
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SPEAKER_00: We discuss not just what's popular, but what's supported by the evidence.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Today's episode is a spicy one.
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Greg and I catch up in sunny Brisbane to cast some light on
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some of the more
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uncomfortable conversations happening in the world of education
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right now.
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SPEAKER_00: Today,
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SPEAKER_00: we're going to be talking about teacher humiliation,
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SPEAKER_00: specifically dunk tanks and pie throwing,
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SPEAKER_00: and question what actually sets beneath these.
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And then we're going to shift the conversation to the
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manosphere and its growing
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SPEAKER_00: influence on young boys in our schools.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so welcome to When Will They Learn?
1:00
SPEAKER_01: And where are we, Katie?
1:01
SPEAKER_00: We are both up in Brisbane today.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Greg, how are you finding the weather, the humidity?
1:06
SPEAKER_00: What was it like in Ballarat when you left?
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SPEAKER_01: It was pretty cold.
1:09
So I'm here with my wife and my eldest daughter because she is
1:15
running in the
1:15
SPEAKER_01: National Athletics Championship.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: That's incredible.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:18
SPEAKER_01: if she gets to the final,
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I won't be here because I'm going to have to go home because
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I've got to be at work
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SPEAKER_01: on Monday.
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SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so we decided to make a bit of a go of it.
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SPEAKER_01: I've got my birthday coming up next week.
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SPEAKER_01: It's also going to do a couple of things for that while we're here.
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SPEAKER_01: So we decided to come up.
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So,
1:31
yeah,
1:31
opportunity to actually record one of these things in person
1:35
for once.
1:37
A little bit of fun,
1:38
which conveniently is also the title of a post that you did.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a bit of fun.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, that's a very slick segue, Katie.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: Very well done.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: It was not pre-prepared.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, no.
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SPEAKER_01: So...
1:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm going to introduce this one.
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SPEAKER_01: So a user on Twitter X called Ria posted something.
2:03
I just saw this on another social media platform posted by the
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school,
2:07
Thoughts.
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And what it is,
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it's an image and it says positive behavior for learning over
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the top.
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SPEAKER_01: Now PBL means all sorts of things,
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SPEAKER_01: but positive behavior for learning is a well-researched strategy.
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kind of I suppose slightly in the behaviours tradition but it's
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been it's been used
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a lot and you have all these it's similar scope to school-wide
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positive behaviour
2:32
and support which is a very well researched thing I don't know
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why I'm talking
2:35
about this because that's not really what this is about their
2:38
version of positive
2:39
SPEAKER_01: behaviour for learning consists of
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three tubes in which there are counters and presumably the
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students are given
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SPEAKER_01: counters for doing the right thing in class maybe and the three tubes,
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SPEAKER_01: one says donut day,
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one says electronic lesson and the other says dunk the teacher
3:03
and the dunk the
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SPEAKER_01: teacher one is full
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The donut day is half full and I think they've all absolutely
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had enough of
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SPEAKER_01: electronic lessons because there's not many tokens in that one.
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SPEAKER_01: And in some follow-up comments,
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SPEAKER_01: Ria makes a clear,
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SPEAKER_01: this is actually from the UK which surprised me,
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SPEAKER_01: I assumed it was from
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SPEAKER_01: the U.S. when I first saw it.
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SPEAKER_01: Now, Ria's tweets had like 1.2 million views.
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Now,
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I quote tweeted,
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I'm sorry,
3:32
it's a bit Twitter-y bingo here,
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but I quoted this.
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So,
3:37
you quote tweet,
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you can say your thing,
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but you've got their one underneath.
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SPEAKER_01: And I started,
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SPEAKER_01: and I told a story about my first school,
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SPEAKER_01: which is how I,
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SPEAKER_01: not how I start,
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SPEAKER_01: but what I do tell the story in this post.
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SPEAKER_01: So the post is really a follow-up,
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SPEAKER_01: but I,
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SPEAKER_01: and I got lots of,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: it's just looking on it on my phone now,
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SPEAKER_01: 998,000,
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SPEAKER_01: it didn't quite make a million views,
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SPEAKER_01: but a lot of people...
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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a lot of people were obviously liking this and a few people
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commenting and Ria got
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SPEAKER_01: some negative comments as well,
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like some American journalist called her like a dork-ass
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because she was dork-ass
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teachers are whining about this because I suppose the
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implication of what Ria
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SPEAKER_01: posted,
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SPEAKER_01: although she didn't say...
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SPEAKER_01: What she said was,
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SPEAKER_01: I just saw this on another social media platform posted by the school,
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SPEAKER_01: Thoughts,
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SPEAKER_01: I know what mine are.
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So she doesn't actually say she disapproves,
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but I think it's quite clear that she does.
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SPEAKER_01: And so the story I tell in my tweet is of when I first started teaching.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, I explain, first of all, why I don't always say yes to everything.
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SPEAKER_01: And then we first started teaching, and it was like some charity event.
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and the school was like divided up into year groups and we had
5:01
like ahead of year
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and then you had and in our year group for this charity event
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what was going to
5:06
happen is they wanted teachers to volunteer to take a a pie to
5:10
the face and what
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this pie was was like a paper plate with um squirty cream or
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shampoo and they
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weren't thrown the idea was that you know you paid to take part
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in this charity
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SPEAKER_01: event or whatever and
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Maybe if your name gets drawn out,
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you get to essentially place a pie in a teacher's face.
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SPEAKER_01: What I noticed,
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SPEAKER_01: because I was there,
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SPEAKER_01: because normally when these things go on,
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SPEAKER_01: I don't volunteer,
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SPEAKER_01: but I was to stay away from them,
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SPEAKER_01: because for reasons we'll get into,
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SPEAKER_01: maybe it's not my kind of thing.
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SPEAKER_01: But I'm there,
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SPEAKER_01: because I've got to look after my form group,
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SPEAKER_01: because I've got a form group to manage.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I have to observe this kind of event
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and it goes a bit wrong so instead of just placing the pies in
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the face what some
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of the students do is they sort of wipe it all around the
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teacher's head so these
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teachers weren't expecting to have to wash their hair they're
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supposed to just wipe
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their face and go to because this was at lunch time or
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something go to class and so
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um it's kind of a nasty thing to do really so some of them
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would have had to go to
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class with some of this stuff probably still in their hair
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trying to get rid of
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SPEAKER_01: some of it but worse um
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SPEAKER_01: a couple of the kids,
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they put some force behind this and like they actually sort of
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essentially sort of
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slap the teacher quite hard in the face and of course behind
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the paper plate and
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SPEAKER_01: the
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The cream is a palm,
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and it really hurt some of the teachers' noses and things.
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SPEAKER_01: And one teacher was in tears afterwards.
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SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely horrendous.
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SPEAKER_01: It was.
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SPEAKER_01: And I thought, I'm so glad I didn't volunteer for that.
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SPEAKER_01: Now, I'm a bit...
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SPEAKER_01: I'm a bit unusual, I think.
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SPEAKER_01: I thought I was more unusual than I now do,
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SPEAKER_01: but I never volunteer for these things,
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SPEAKER_01: and I don't succumb to the peer pressure around them at all.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's because I'm a little bit of an introvert,
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SPEAKER_01: so I just don't like being the centre of attention at all.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't like that, especially in that kind of context.
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SPEAKER_01: It's just not...
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SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to make light of it and all that, and I just know.
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SPEAKER_01: But I couple that with being...
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outspoken enough to say no i'm not doing that yeah um and i
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worry i suppose i worry
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that there's lots of people out there who feel the same way as
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me but end up
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getting cajoled into doing those sorts of things anyway and the
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responses to the
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social media posts made me realize there's a lot of teachers
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that don't like these
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things and don't feel very positive about them um and maybe i'm
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not alone and going
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SPEAKER_01: back to the dunking thing just um
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SPEAKER_01: Because I've been in a school that's done that with a dunk tank as well.
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SPEAKER_01: And that was really well done.
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SPEAKER_01: So that wasn't kids sort of doing it wrong or anything like that.
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SPEAKER_01: That was really well organized.
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SPEAKER_01: And even so, I didn't want to get involved in that.
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And some of the teachers were really gangly in their business
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suits and stuff would
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SPEAKER_01: be dunked in this tank.
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SPEAKER_01: And I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, because that was a lunchtime one.
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SPEAKER_01: I didn't have any supervision duty.
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SPEAKER_01: So I didn't actually see.
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what that looked like because as i say i kind of absent myself
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i just don't like
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the whole jeering oh it's just not my kind of scene but it
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turns out that maybe
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there's quite a lot of teachers dork ass maybe you might want
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to call them teachers
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out there like me who don't see their role as being having to
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volunteer for this
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SPEAKER_01: kind of ritual humiliation and i use that word humiliation
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um quite deliberately because i looked into this and i started
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researching dunk
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tanks and um and it turns out that lots of sources say some
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people have challenged
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me this after i wrote the post but lots of sources say that
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these originate in an
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essentially a racist game uh so you know in the 1800s uh people
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would pay at a um
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SPEAKER_01: at a
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like a carnival like an affair to play this game which the most
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polite name of it
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was called African Dodger but there were very highly offensive
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names for it where
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SPEAKER_01: essentially a black man would stick his head out from behind like a
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a canvas curtain I suppose and people throw various objects at
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his face and
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typically baseballs and the idea was that he would dodge it and
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but this was very
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violent and caused serious injuries lots of documented serious
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injuries one
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SPEAKER_01: gentleman ended up with a baseball sort of lodged
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in his mouth with his teeth broken and and I mean it's just
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deeply unpleasant well
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this evolved and I suppose over time people began to think that
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that wasn't the
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SPEAKER_01: thing to do but they were still kind of racist so they
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invented this dunk tank and so now instead of throwing the
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baseball at the
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gentleman they would throw it at this target and if they hit
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the target then he
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SPEAKER_01: would fall into this tank of water and the carnival organisers would get
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the man to hurl racist insults to kind of encourage the white
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audience to then pay
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SPEAKER_01: for tickets to throw this baseball.
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SPEAKER_01: And apparently,
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SPEAKER_01: although as I say,
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SPEAKER_01: some commenters on my blog have been challenging this,
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but a number of sources say that's where this modern dunk tank
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that you might get
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SPEAKER_01: at a school,
10:52
SPEAKER_01: because that's how they work.
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If there's a target,
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you throw something at the target,
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that's where it comes from.
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SPEAKER_01: For me,
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SPEAKER_01: that just illustrates that we might say like some people were like,
11:01
SPEAKER_01: oh,
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SPEAKER_01: it's just a bit of fun or just shows the kids,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: involving yourself in this just shows the kids are human.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't think you can get away from
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The thing that I see in these events and I've always seen in
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these events is that
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SPEAKER_01: there's an element of humiliation there.
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And I just,
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and I suppose ultimately for me,
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that's what it comes down to.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's what rubs me up the wrong way.
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SPEAKER_01: Now that was an awful long answer there, Katie.
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So I'd be interested to take a sip of my water and listen to
11:29
your thoughts.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: You went through,
11:32
SPEAKER_00: like you went through a few bits to that,
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SPEAKER_00: but the part that I made a couple of notes to go back to,
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SPEAKER_00: but the part that
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I went back to that you reference in your post on Substack on
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this was that idea of
11:44
coercion because I think like it's great to say okay well it
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could be humiliating
11:48
or it might not be humiliating but I think for some people you
11:51
know that's going to
11:52
be a completely different people are going to have a different
11:56
take on whether or
11:56
not they consider being dunked humiliating and we know that
12:00
because we've seen
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SPEAKER_00: teachers who have volunteered to do it
12:03
I when I was talking about this tweet with a teacher friend and
12:06
I'm going to keep a
12:07
couple of details on this very light other than saying it's not
12:10
someone based at
12:11
the school that I'm at now but I was speaking to a teacher
12:14
friend in the last
12:14
couple of weeks and they said their school did something like
12:18
this in the last
12:19
couple of weeks of last term where the teachers were nominated
12:23
by students and then
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SPEAKER_00: the teachers were approached and they were asked
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SPEAKER_00: do you want to,
12:27
SPEAKER_00: and it was something like this,
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SPEAKER_00: like it was a humiliation,
12:30
SPEAKER_00: similar to a pyre,
12:31
SPEAKER_00: a dunk tank,
12:31
SPEAKER_00: and it was something along those lines.
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SPEAKER_00: And this teacher said to me, I'm really glad I wasn't asked
12:39
SPEAKER_00: And they said to me,
12:39
because I know that the teachers that get asked to do this are
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either the ones who
12:43
are really popular with the students and you're the cool
12:45
teacher or you're the
12:46
SPEAKER_00: really unpopular ones.
12:47
And I know right now that I'm so new to this school and this
12:50
environment that I was
12:51
SPEAKER_00: going to be the unpopular teacher.
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SPEAKER_00: So this teacher didn't just have a fear of doing it where they were like,
12:56
SPEAKER_00: I would have said,
12:56
SPEAKER_00: no,
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SPEAKER_00: it's not my thing.
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SPEAKER_00: This teacher, their concern was being asked in the first place.
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SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't a system where you had to volunteer beforehand to do it.
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SPEAKER_00: This was a case of a school going, let's let our students do a vote.
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SPEAKER_00: And based on what our students vote,
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SPEAKER_00: we'll then approach the teachers and say,
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SPEAKER_00: hey,
13:13
SPEAKER_00: students have voted for this.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think that adds to that level of coercion, right?
13:17
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, coercion is the thing.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: And I think,
13:22
SPEAKER_01: yes,
13:22
SPEAKER_01: in principle,
13:25
it's a bit like there are parallels with other things that
13:31
people might choose to
13:32
SPEAKER_01: do,
13:34
SPEAKER_01: which I will stay vague about.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: But in principle,
13:39
SPEAKER_01: If someone consents to do that fully,
13:41
SPEAKER_01: in full knowledge,
13:42
SPEAKER_01: that that's what they want to do,
13:43
SPEAKER_01: and they're happy to do that,
13:44
SPEAKER_01: and I know they're a sort of character that doesn't bother them at all.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: And certainly some teachers would just think it was great fun,
13:53
SPEAKER_01: they're the centre of attention,
13:55
SPEAKER_01: loads of,
13:56
SPEAKER_01: and they would do it just completely voluntarily.
13:59
But I'm wondering whether it is possible for that to sit
14:04
alongside no element of
14:07
SPEAKER_01: coercion at all.
14:08
i mean i've never like the school that had the dunk tank i i
14:12
just said no and that
14:13
was the end of it and no one like a few kids would say are you
14:16
going to do it and i
14:17
go no and that's it and i didn't really feel any kind of
14:21
coercion but again i'm a
14:23
particular kind of a character as well and you do wonder that
14:28
people that are maybe
14:29
a little bit less secure in their their career would feel that
14:33
that was a hard
14:34
SPEAKER_01: thing to say they're
14:35
SPEAKER_01: the stereotype of a maths teacher, you know?
14:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what you're saying.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: Am I that correct?
14:40
SPEAKER_01: I can fish out of water and it is not there.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: And for some kids and for some staff too, that's part of the fun of it.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: That people feel uncomfortable and look uncomfortable.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: But that's why it's fun to vote for those people.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
14:54
Like you vote for the person who you go,
14:56
that doesn't fit my image of them.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: That's going to be funny.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: But that's why students choose that person.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: Like it is,
15:02
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
15:02
SPEAKER_00: the popular one where you're like,
15:04
SPEAKER_00: they'll have a bit of fun and they'll be silly.
15:06
But it's also the,
15:07
this person's going to find this really uncomfortable.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: I think it feeds into...
15:13
SPEAKER_00: There's this really common view that I think comes from media, I think.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I've not researched it.
15:20
But it's this idea that there's almost this us versus them with
15:23
students and
15:24
SPEAKER_00: teachers,
15:24
where it's teachers have got to be the enemy of the student and
15:27
you need to rebel
15:28
against your teachers and so humiliating or punishing or
15:32
pulling pranks or
15:32
SPEAKER_00: practical jokes on your teachers...
15:34
SPEAKER_00: That's seen as being a funny thing and it's used constantly in,
15:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to say in low stakes TV shows,
15:40
like I was reflecting on this and thinking about my views as a
15:46
little grade two who
15:47
SPEAKER_00: was like,
15:47
SPEAKER_00: oh I'm going to put pins on my teacher's chair,
15:49
SPEAKER_00: that'll be funny.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: That's not funny, that's horrendous.
15:52
But I was getting that from TV shows I was watching where that
15:55
was kind of that
15:56
SPEAKER_00: position and I wondered if this idea feeds into that or comes from that.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: Well,
16:02
SPEAKER_01: there was a lot of,
16:03
SPEAKER_01: on social media,
16:04
SPEAKER_01: and Twitter X is a very particular kind of a thing now.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: There's lots of deeply unpleasant characters on there.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: And some just clearly just dislike teachers,
16:15
SPEAKER_01: and they had used the opportunity to say that they just dislike teachers.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: Others,
16:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
16:23
SPEAKER_01: lighten up,
16:24
SPEAKER_01: it's just a bit of fun,
16:26
SPEAKER_01: it makes you human,
16:27
SPEAKER_01: humanises you,
16:28
SPEAKER_01: all this sort of stuff.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: Do we need to be human?
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's like...
16:33
it's what are we what are we doing this for ultimately why why
16:38
is it funny because
16:40
people feel awkward like if you drop into a tank of cold water
16:44
that's unpleasant i
16:46
mean at the very least even the teachers that enjoy it probably
16:49
don't particularly
16:51
relish the whole falling into cold water aspect of it so
16:54
there's an element where
16:57
it's meant to be where it's funny because it's unpleasant and
17:01
one person said to me
17:02
um essentially you know well i i think it's you know teachers
17:08
don't want to you
17:08
know be humiliated well i don't think students um should be
17:12
humiliated in schools
17:13
either and i said i played a straight i've played a straight
17:16
bad i said yeah i did
17:18
SPEAKER_01: but i don't i've never worked in a school where kids have been asked to
17:22
take a pie to the face from the teacher or be dunked in a dunk
17:26
time by the teacher.
17:27
And the person got back to me and said,
17:28
well,
17:29
you know,
17:29
that's not what I meant.
17:30
And what they were probably getting at,
17:31
and I think the subtext of it was that teachers,
17:35
by
17:36
asking kids to answer questions on mini whiteboards and hold
17:39
them up and write
17:41
SPEAKER_01: texts in notebooks and things like that,
17:46
SPEAKER_01: that we're all the time,
17:47
we're kind of asking them and coercing them into doing things
17:51
that they don't want
17:52
SPEAKER_01: to do.
17:53
So therefore this is an opportunity for them to turn the tables
17:57
and sort of coerce
17:58
SPEAKER_01: teachers into doing what they don't want to do.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: But that kind of falls down because again,
18:03
SPEAKER_01: It's drawing this false equivalence between something that is...
18:07
SPEAKER_01: The purpose of it is...
18:11
The teacher's not going to gain anything from being dunked in a
18:13
dunk tank or taking
18:14
SPEAKER_01: a pie to the face.
18:15
The point of getting kids to write and do maths problems and
18:18
things like that is
18:19
SPEAKER_01: because they gain out of it.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: The purpose is not to humiliate or to make someone feel uncomfortable.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: The purpose is to help that student.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: And I think when we draw these false equivalences, we...
18:33
SPEAKER_01: we kind of really,
18:34
we degrade what we mean by an education and what the project is
18:40
and what we're
18:41
SPEAKER_01: trying to do.
18:41
And as you say in this kind of cartoonish popular view of
18:46
teachers versus students,
18:47
SPEAKER_01: the whole purpose of what we're trying to do
18:51
is lost and maybe I take myself too seriously maybe I take what
18:56
we're trying to do
18:57
in schools too seriously perhaps and that's where this comes
19:00
from but yeah I just
19:02
got from that that I'm not on my own there's quite a lot of
19:05
teachers out there that
19:06
don't think this sort of stuff's a good idea either so what
19:09
about the critics that
19:10
say then but it's for charity which I think you've actually
19:12
referenced explicitly
19:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: So, well, yeah, I mean, again, that's a form of coercion.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and some people will say, yeah, well, I'll, I'll pay.
19:21
Like there was one example of someone who they'd like raised so
19:25
much money to
19:26
SPEAKER_01: humiliate his teacher in some way and they just paid their way out of it.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: They said, well, I don't have more money to charity than that.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it shouldn't really be on teachers to do that.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: And it is a form of coercion.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: And I mentioned this and, um,
19:38
online and some people thought it was absolutely ridiculous and
19:41
overblown.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: But it is taking this to an absurd level and I do agree.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: But it does illustrate something of a point.
19:52
So the sexual predator in the UK,
19:55
Jimmy Savile,
19:57
he was,
20:00
charity was a cover for what he did.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: So he ran in the London Marathon.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: He was on the board of hospitals.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: He raised lots of money.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: And he was able to do that.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: And part of his cover for doing all that while being a predator was,
20:16
SPEAKER_01: oh,
20:16
SPEAKER_01: well,
20:16
SPEAKER_01: he's got to be a good guy.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: He's doing good stuff for charity.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: Now,
20:20
SPEAKER_01: of course,
20:20
I'm not saying that that's anything like a charity collection
20:24
to dunk a teacher or
20:25
SPEAKER_01: something like that.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: The only point I'm trying to make with that is...
20:28
SPEAKER_01: You can't just...
20:30
SPEAKER_01: It's not a blank check.
20:31
Just saying something's for charity doesn't mean that we then
20:33
don't have to
20:34
evaluate the circumstances and what is going on and whether
20:37
something's appropriate
20:38
SPEAKER_01: or not.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: It might not be.
20:40
And sometimes people use cover of charity or other plausible
20:46
cover stories to cover
20:48
SPEAKER_01: things that aren't actually that nice.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: You know,
20:51
SPEAKER_01: coercing a teacher into doing something that they don't want to do,
20:54
SPEAKER_01: whether it's for charity or not,
20:56
SPEAKER_01: Just, isn't that nice?
20:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm completely on board.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything else that we want to talk to on that point, Greg?
21:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: I think I've probably talked a bit too much.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: You can see I'm a bit animated about the whole thing.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: And I've probably talked a bit too much about it.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I suppose I'm a little bit more, I'm a bit startled.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: I thought it was just me.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, I just thought I was odd.
21:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's just you at all.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: No.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's what I've got from this exercise.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:24
I think it's a lot of us are not happy or comfortable with this
21:27
kind of thing.
21:29
It's probably an interesting thing then to consider as a
21:31
profession because in
21:33
SPEAKER_00: other professions,
21:33
SPEAKER_00: to what extent are you asked to do things like that that are novel,
21:37
SPEAKER_00: that are silly,
21:38
SPEAKER_00: that are based on this idea of humiliation?
21:41
Like,
21:41
are we sat there in a business saying,
21:44
oh,
21:44
we're going to dunk the CEO?
21:46
Like,
21:47
possibly,
21:47
but very rarely,
21:49
I would predict,
21:49
where he's for teaching.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: It's just, it's almost...
21:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say it's an expectation of the job,
21:55
but it kind of is an expectation that you get involved and you
21:58
do silly things and
22:00
it's so dependent on what school you end up in as to whether or
22:04
not you feel as
22:05
though you're forced to do this or whether you feel as though
22:07
you have a choice.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: And some people,
22:10
like some people really love this stuff and it can become part
22:15
of the school
22:15
SPEAKER_01: culture and I would,
22:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:17
SPEAKER_01: like dressing up for book week,
22:19
SPEAKER_01: like book day or whatever it is.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: I would love to do that.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: I'd be on board, but...
22:25
SPEAKER_01: But again, some people might not want to do it.
22:27
And it's not the same as being dumped or taken pie to the face
22:31
or something.
22:32
Someone on social media did say they did actually have a thing
22:35
and a CEO and they
22:37
SPEAKER_01: were like wet sponges and they threw wet sponges at them.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: So I think it does happen, but I think you're right.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of more prevalent in our...
22:48
In our line of work because of just the sort of expectations
22:52
and the culture around it.
22:57
So the second one that we want to speak to is it's an article
23:03
in The Guardian by
23:04
SPEAKER_00: Adam Voigt,
23:04
SPEAKER_00: who is a CEO and a former principal.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: And the article, it's an opinion piece.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: The title of it,
23:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't feel really gets to the heart of it,
23:12
SPEAKER_00: but the title is,
23:14
SPEAKER_00: I approached a woman in a pub.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: It was a vital step toward becoming a good man.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: And basically, what this piece speaks to is this idea of the manosphere.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: And we'll come to that in a moment.
23:28
But basically,
23:29
I'm going to read out a quote from it because I like this one.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: He speaks about the Netflix documentary, Into the Manosphere, and
23:37
SPEAKER_00: But he says,
23:37
it shows a generation of young men being drawn toward online
23:41
voices that promise
23:42
SPEAKER_00: power,
23:43
SPEAKER_00: certainty,
23:43
SPEAKER_00: and identity,
23:45
SPEAKER_00: while stripping them of empathy,
23:46
SPEAKER_00: connection,
23:47
SPEAKER_00: and respect.
23:48
And basically what he's done with this is he's sort of gone on
23:51
to say that the man
23:53
SPEAKER_00: is fair,
23:55
SPEAKER_00: it exists to fill this gap in identity and belonging,
23:58
SPEAKER_00: and again,
23:59
SPEAKER_00: we'll come to that in a moment,
24:01
SPEAKER_00: and that schools should play a role in shaping good men.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: So the paper itself, look, it does...
24:07
SPEAKER_00: It sort of starts off with a little bit of a story where he speaks about
24:10
approaching a woman in a pub and talks about how dating culture
24:14
has shifted now to
24:16
SPEAKER_00: using apps and swiping and speaks about,
24:18
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
24:19
SPEAKER_00: the negative impacts of that in the world.
24:23
But whilst it starts with that,
24:25
that's actually not the main direction that the paper goes.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: So he speaks to these,
24:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to call them competing sort of viewpoints of this idea that the
24:35
SPEAKER_00: manosphere,
24:36
SPEAKER_00: which I should probably get into actually in case you don't know.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: So the manosphere...
24:42
SPEAKER_00: Wish I could even tell you where it started,
24:44
SPEAKER_00: but this is where people like Andrew Tate is probably the most famous.
24:50
You've got HS,
24:51
who's spoken about or interviewed in that documentary that was
24:54
mentioned.
24:55
It's these figures on social media who promote,
25:00
I'm going to say,
25:01
anti-feminine views.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: They're views that are very much based on men being powerful.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: How would you describe it, Greg?
25:07
SPEAKER_00: Rejecting...
25:08
SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, it's...
25:11
SPEAKER_01: It's terrible, a lot of it.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: Andrew Tate's horrible.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: And he's not someone I would want to influence young men.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: But they get them in.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: They start by saying, oh, you should go to the gym.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of like this soft on-ramp.
25:25
But then it ends in this kind of violent misogyny and boys just
25:30
being really rude
25:31
SPEAKER_01: to their female teachers.
25:33
And because they've been taught by people like Tate that women
25:37
are somehow like,
25:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
25:39
SPEAKER_01: it's just full on misogyny.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: It's very classic gender roles base.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: Would be your probable explanation of it.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Um,
25:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's very much based on that.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: It's this idea of men being,
25:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to say,
25:51
SPEAKER_00: strong,
25:52
SPEAKER_00: what they would call like,
25:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to again use the phrase classically masculine,
25:55
SPEAKER_00: so it focuses on,
25:56
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
25:56
SPEAKER_00: well,
25:57
SPEAKER_00: it's physical strength and power and dominance and really just works on,
26:04
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
26:04
SPEAKER_00: building these things up.
26:05
And I think the whole point of this is that it's about men
26:08
rejecting these views
26:09
SPEAKER_00: now that women are their equals is the way that I'm going to put it.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: And you might disagree with me, but I don't really care.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: So in this piece that Adam Voigt has written here,
26:23
SPEAKER_00: what he does is he basically says,
26:25
SPEAKER_00: look,
26:26
SPEAKER_00: there's this view that the manosphere leads to misogyny,
26:30
SPEAKER_00: anti-equality,
26:30
SPEAKER_00: harmful behaviours.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: But he kind of poses this from an alternate view as well.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: And he says, well, I think that it's meeting an unmet need.
26:39
And the reason that I wanted to speak to this one is because
26:41
this is a topic that
26:42
SPEAKER_00: I've become very,
26:43
SPEAKER_00: very passionate about.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: So I,
26:45
SPEAKER_00: for context,
26:46
I work at an all boys school and I'm going to flat out say that
26:50
I do not believe
26:51
SPEAKER_00: that young boys or that teenage boys,
26:53
SPEAKER_00: I do not believe that they're bad people.
26:56
However,
26:56
I do believe that like any people,
26:58
I guess they can do bad things.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: And before I go too deep in this,
27:02
I want to be very clear that I'm not condoning or excusing any
27:06
misogynistic or
27:07
SPEAKER_00: threatening behaviour.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I want to be clear that I'm completely against it.
27:12
And as a young woman who has been on the receiving end of
27:15
countless misogynistic
27:17
SPEAKER_00: comments or actions,
27:20
I wanted to speak out on this because I feel as though we've
27:23
hit this point where
27:25
SPEAKER_00: I've seen some young boys,
27:27
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
27:27
be pigeonholed under this view that I guess that they are bad
27:31
people and this view
27:33
SPEAKER_00: that they can't escape that.
27:35
And I wanted to address it,
27:36
I guess,
27:37
from that perspective because I think
27:40
SPEAKER_00: I think we can,
27:41
SPEAKER_00: in fact,
27:41
I know we can say that these behaviours are wrong and that we
27:44
don't condone
27:45
SPEAKER_00: misogyny or these awful anti-feminist viewpoints.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: We can say that,
27:53
but we can say that while also saying that young boys can be
27:56
good people and I
27:57
SPEAKER_00: guess showing them what that looks like.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: I think what's happened here is that
28:04
In teaching young boys the statistics around harassment and
28:08
violence and misogyny
28:09
and the fact that most violence does actually occur with a male
28:14
perpetrator that's
28:15
a statistic that's a true fact and I agree to be really really
28:19
clear and really
28:20
explicit here I agree that we should be teaching that but in
28:23
doing that I do think
28:25
SPEAKER_00: there's an unintended consequence sometimes where what happens is
28:31
the message doesn't always land as being just about the
28:34
behaviour being wrong.
28:35
I think it almost becomes they start to internalise that about
28:39
themselves and they
28:40
SPEAKER_00: begin to see themselves as being bad and that people think,
28:43
SPEAKER_00: well,
28:44
this is what boys do and this is what men are like and
28:47
therefore this is what I am.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: And they're stuck in this dominant narrative where...
28:56
I suppose it becomes a case where it doesn't just feel as
29:00
though it's about calling
29:01
SPEAKER_00: out harm or highlighting these things.
29:04
It becomes a case of feeling like there's very little space to
29:09
be seen as being
29:10
SPEAKER_00: good or even being capable of being good.
29:14
And again,
29:14
I want to be like,
29:16
I think that's a tension we don't talk enough about.
29:18
And I want to be clear that I still agree that we need to teach
29:20
these things to young boys.
29:22
But I do think that it's also had this unintended consequence
29:25
on our young boys
29:27
where they feel as though they can't speak about some of their
29:31
traits in a positive
29:33
SPEAKER_00: light anymore.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: And those things that maybe they were once proud of,
29:36
SPEAKER_00: like,
29:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:37
SPEAKER_00: like going to gym,
29:37
SPEAKER_00: say those things they were once proud of.
29:41
now I guess get branded as toxic masculinity which again is a
29:46
bad thing I'm not
29:47
discrediting that at all and I want to be very clear with that
29:51
but I think the
29:51
problem is that I think they're almost I think it's almost
29:55
overgeneralized and I
29:56
think some of that's our teaching and I think some of that's
29:58
just the way that it's
29:59
SPEAKER_00: internalized so
30:01
SPEAKER_00: the piece gets to this as well but it's basically this idea that yeah the
30:05
manosphere is meeting this need that boys have and greg i know
30:09
that you spoke to
30:09
this in your Substack that i was a huge fan of um which is this
30:13
idea that young boys
30:15
are out here looking for a place that they belong and when
30:18
they're told that
30:19
they're going to be bad people regardless of anything then of
30:22
course they're going
30:22
to seek places where they feel heard and where they belong
30:25
we're humans we're
30:25
SPEAKER_00: looking for connection and belonging
30:28
SPEAKER_00: And I think that young boys are doing this,
30:29
but they're doing this from a place that does recognise those
30:32
concerns that they've
30:33
SPEAKER_00: got,
30:34
SPEAKER_00: hits them from this place of,
30:36
SPEAKER_00: or comes at them from this place of,
30:38
I'm afraid that everyone thinks I'm a bad person and that
30:42
there's no escape from
30:43
SPEAKER_00: this,
30:43
SPEAKER_00: and basically says,
30:44
SPEAKER_00: well,
30:44
SPEAKER_00: here's your pathway out of it,
30:46
SPEAKER_00: and it's this whole misogynistic,
30:49
SPEAKER_00: terrible,
30:50
SPEAKER_00: manosphere viewpoint.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't genuinely think that a lot of our
30:55
SPEAKER_00: I said to someone the other day that,
30:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:57
if a 14-year-old boy comes up to you and he says something
31:00
that's misogynistic,
31:01
that's horrendous and that's awful and you would correct that
31:03
and there would be a
31:03
SPEAKER_00: consequence.
31:05
But I'm not fully convinced that a 14-year-old is always aware
31:11
of what they're saying.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think that like we would treat any young child,
31:16
SPEAKER_00: because they are children,
31:17
SPEAKER_00: like we treat any child by educating and having a conversation...
31:22
And still with consequences because I don't want to lessen the
31:28
impact or the
31:29
SPEAKER_00: implication of what they've done.
31:32
Like they need a hard consequence for what they've done and I
31:36
don't want to
31:36
diminish that at all because what they've done is wrong and we
31:39
need consequences.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
31:42
I think what matters as well is what happens after that and
31:45
it's the conversation
31:45
and the education around the implications of what's said
31:49
because I don't know how
31:50
SPEAKER_00: much of it I guess is...
31:52
A 14-year-old being inherently misogynistic and how much of
31:57
that is a 14-year-old
31:59
who's copying something that they've heard an influencer say
32:01
and they don't
32:02
SPEAKER_00: understand the gravity of that.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that a lot of 14-year-olds would be inherently misogynistic.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: I think they possibly...
32:14
SPEAKER_01: can.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: But I think you're right.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: I think we agree largely on what's going on here.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the Adam Voigt article is interesting.
32:28
The bit about approaching the woman in a pub sent me down a
32:31
complete rabbit hole
32:33
SPEAKER_01: thinking about,
32:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:35
SPEAKER_01: 20 years ago,
32:36
SPEAKER_01: that's how people did meet.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: And now there's a lot of this stuff with the apps.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: And one statistic, I think it's something like,
32:44
SPEAKER_01: 80% or more of men just don't get any... Is it right or left?
32:51
SPEAKER_01: Do you have to swipe?
32:52
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: Don't get any positive feedback from these apps.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: Because women think they're below average.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: But, of course, 80% of men cannot be below average.
33:01
But it turns out that when you sort of force women to judge men
33:05
in this very
33:06
SPEAKER_01: artificial way that they don't normally do,
33:10
SPEAKER_01: you get these strange results.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: Because, obviously, previously it was...
33:14
dating and things like that were a lot more social it was about
33:16
um personality yeah
33:18
yeah so and i do think there's something weird going on there
33:22
and it got me
33:22
thinking about that and i spent probably a bit too long
33:24
thinking about that but as
33:25
you say it's not really anything to do with what void it's a
33:28
weird i don't know it
33:30
was a really odd start i felt i'm not sure what that's doing in
33:34
the article but um
33:36
SPEAKER_01: in terms of the manosphere look i think people people
33:41
SPEAKER_01: Assume,
33:42
SPEAKER_01: and politicians talk like this,
33:44
SPEAKER_01: that the internet creates things,
33:48
that there are bad actors out there on the internet spreading
33:51
disinformation,
33:53
SPEAKER_01: spreading lies,
33:54
SPEAKER_01: spreading misogyny,
33:56
SPEAKER_01: and that sort of causes all these problems in society.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: And that is one way of looking at it.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: But the other way to look at it is it's more of a market.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: So what are people...
34:08
SPEAKER_01: Why are people spreading misinformation on the internet?
34:12
Because other people are willing to,
34:14
well,
34:15
not buy it,
34:16
metaphorically buy it.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's a marketplace.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: And why are there these manosphere influencers out there that,
34:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
34:24
at the most benign level are just selling supplements and
34:28
telling young men to go
34:29
SPEAKER_01: to the gym,
34:30
SPEAKER_01: but at the really extreme level are horrific influencers
34:36
SPEAKER_01: you know, have horrific attitudes like Andrew Tech.
34:38
Well,
34:39
again,
34:39
I mean,
34:39
it speaks badly of those people,
34:41
but it also speaks to the marketplace.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: It speaks to,
34:44
they wouldn't be doing it if people weren't buying these
34:47
supplements or were
34:48
SPEAKER_01: watching these videos and said they could monetize the advertising.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: They wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't a market for it.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: And they wouldn't be...
34:57
SPEAKER_01: increasing.
34:58
There wouldn't be more of them joining in this if there wasn't
35:03
a market for it.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: So you've got to say, well, where does that market come from?
35:08
Part of that is that there are a few positive ways of
35:15
expressing yourself as a man.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: So in the 1950s, what's a man?
35:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, a man's supposed to be a provider.
35:22
If you said that now,
35:23
people immediately say,
35:24
oh,
35:24
well,
35:24
women can do that too.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: And any quality,
35:28
SPEAKER_01: like if you tried to,
35:30
SPEAKER_01: if you went on AI and said,
35:31
SPEAKER_01: give me five masculine qualities,
35:35
SPEAKER_01: positive masculine qualities,
35:36
and I'm not going to do it because if I did that and then I
35:40
read them out,
35:41
SPEAKER_01: everyone,
35:42
SPEAKER_01: we're so incultured at the moment,
35:43
SPEAKER_01: we'd say,
35:44
SPEAKER_01: well,
35:44
SPEAKER_01: women can do that too,
35:45
SPEAKER_01: and women can be independent too,
35:46
SPEAKER_01: or whatever it is.
35:48
SPEAKER_01: And of course, that's true.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: But what we've done is we've taken away
35:53
SPEAKER_01: pre-existing positive notions of manhood.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: And that might be with a good reason,
36:00
SPEAKER_01: because they could have been quite sexist notions of,
36:04
SPEAKER_01: but you haven't replaced them with anything.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: So if you're a young boy,
36:09
SPEAKER_01: You don't have these,
36:11
SPEAKER_01: oh,
36:11
SPEAKER_01: well,
36:11
SPEAKER_01: it's great to be a boy because you can't finish that question because,
36:14
SPEAKER_01: like,
36:15
SPEAKER_01: anything you say,
36:16
SPEAKER_01: people will take offense at.
36:19
But also you're getting this messaging around toxic masculinity
36:24
and the fact that
36:27
SPEAKER_01: boys are a threat.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: No, they are.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: Boys are responsible for,
36:32
SPEAKER_01: well,
36:32
men are responsible for domestic abuse at a scale many orders
36:36
of magnitude greater
36:39
SPEAKER_01: than women.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: And so it is an explicitly male problem.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: But what we're doing is we say, well, that's toxic masculinity.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's not...
36:50
SPEAKER_01: it's not great if that's the mix that you're growing up in.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: So you can't think of yourself in positive ways,
36:56
SPEAKER_01: because those have been sort of taken away,
36:59
SPEAKER_01: often with good reason.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: But you also have to think of yourself quite regularly in negative ways.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: And in schools,
37:06
part of our sexual relationship education remit means that we
37:10
have to go into that
37:10
territory and we have to talk about that we have to talk about
37:13
respect and consent
37:14
and but in ways that you know we we know that there is a
37:18
gendered aspect to that
37:20
and boys are not silly and they they get that message and then
37:23
someone comes along
37:24
SPEAKER_01: and says actually all these people
37:28
SPEAKER_01: They're lying to you.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: It's actually great to be a man.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: Come to the gym.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: Take some supplements.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: It's positive.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: Feel good about yourself.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: You're all right.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: And of course there's a market for that.
37:39
So what we,
37:42
it's not helpful and it's not right,
37:46
but it will attract people.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: So what we need are somehow as a society and
37:53
SPEAKER_01: And it's going to be hard for some people.
37:55
I remember a presentation at a school where we talked about
38:00
some of the...
38:00
SPEAKER_01: So,
38:01
SPEAKER_01: for instance,
38:02
SPEAKER_01: there are some statistics that,
38:03
like there are lots of statistics that show that women are
38:05
disadvantaged in certain
38:06
SPEAKER_01: ways.
38:07
There are some statistics that show men are disadvantaged in
38:09
certain ways,
38:09
SPEAKER_01: particularly in terms of things like educational outcomes,
38:12
SPEAKER_01: but also...
38:14
men are much more likely to self-harm in ways that actually end
38:20
up taking their own lives.
38:22
They will die young because they tend to,
38:26
they also are higher represented in more danger
38:29
professions like construction and things like that and we would
38:32
we were talking
38:33
about this and some people in the audience just found this
38:36
really challenging like
38:37
why would you talk about this that the overwhelming problem is
38:41
you know the gender
38:42
pay gap and things that affect women and but I think you can
38:45
talk about another
38:46
problem without saying that that one doesn't exist yes but you
38:49
can but it's quite
38:50
sophisticated and I think a lot of people have a kind of
38:54
goodies and baddies
38:55
SPEAKER_01: oppressors oppressed anarchy and
38:58
black and white world view and as soon as you start saying in
39:01
some ways boys have
39:02
it tough people are kind of outraged and they really struggle
39:07
with that but I think
39:08
we need to get into a space where we are more comfortable with
39:12
that and also it's
39:14
not really I mean flip that around it's not really about saying
39:18
in some ways boys
39:19
are disadvantaged I think what's far more important is to give
39:23
some positive
39:24
roles,
39:24
some positive ways of being,
39:27
some positive narratives that boys can sign up to.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think sort of Adam Voigt is getting at that.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: Where,
39:36
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
39:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
39:37
SPEAKER_01: Adam Voigt's a big,
39:40
SPEAKER_01: he's a big advocate of restorative practices,
39:43
SPEAKER_01: and there's a lot to say on that,
39:44
SPEAKER_01: maybe we should talk about restorative practices at some point.
39:49
And I don't know whether we could talk about it in a way that
39:52
he would not object
39:53
SPEAKER_01: to,
39:53
SPEAKER_01: because my views on restorative practices and his,
39:56
SPEAKER_01: I think,
39:57
SPEAKER_01: are quite different.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: I do think, though, that, yes...
40:03
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, rambling a little bit.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: In 1997,
40:07
SPEAKER_01: Tony Blair became Prime Minister of Britain,
40:11
SPEAKER_01: and he ran on a campaign,
40:14
SPEAKER_01: a very successful campaign,
40:15
SPEAKER_01: and one of his slogans was,
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Tough on the causes of crime.
40:19
So what we've talked about here is the conditions that create a
40:25
market that will
40:26
send boys off towards these misogynist influences and all that
40:31
sort of stuff.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think we need a plan for that.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: But I also think that when boys do...
40:36
SPEAKER_01: enact these beliefs and these behaviors in school.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: I think we need to crack down really hard on it.
40:42
I'm not for a conversation about that and seeing it as an
40:47
opportunity to educate.
40:49
SPEAKER_01: I think we need to draw a line in the sand as a community.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: If a boy is misogynistic in school, if he disrespects a female teacher,
40:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, that has to be a hard line, right?
41:00
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: And I would say that the school community needs to recognise that,
41:04
SPEAKER_01: maybe by suspending that student.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: Because we've got to say, we don't have that here.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: And if you're going to do that, you can't be here.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: Now, I'm not sure whether I think...
41:13
SPEAKER_01: I don't know whether Adam Voigt would agree with that.
41:15
He kind of...
41:16
No,
41:16
because he makes a comment about removal as well in this.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he does some way that it's not necessarily the solution.
41:22
SPEAKER_01: And it isn't the solution,
41:23
SPEAKER_01: because just like the tough on crime,
41:26
SPEAKER_01: tough on the causes of crime slogan,
41:29
SPEAKER_01: we need to do all the things and we need to work at two different levels.
41:32
So when it crosses that line,
41:34
we need to signal out disapproval,
41:36
we're not tolerating this.
41:37
But yeah,
41:38
also recognise,
41:39
as Voigt does,
41:40
that there's a lot of work to be done...
41:42
with young men and maybe some of what we need to do is is
41:45
involves changing the way
41:47
that we talk to them i think though that point is you know we
41:52
have we have people
41:53
who go to prison because they've they've done something they've
41:56
broken a law
41:56
they've done the wrong thing but when it comes to them going to
42:01
prison we we often
42:03
don't sometimes we do i guess but we don't always stop the
42:06
conversation there like
42:07
SPEAKER_00: there's
42:08
you've got the consequence that's in place that's a hard line
42:11
for sure but it's
42:13
then about well what do you do when that person gets out later
42:16
or what do you do
42:17
when they're in prison to stop them from re-offending in the
42:19
future and I think
42:21
that's what it comes down to because I completely agree if a
42:24
student regardless of
42:26
who they are if they say something and it's misogynistic or
42:28
it's offensive or it's
42:29
SPEAKER_00: threatening in any way to any of their teachers and
42:32
SPEAKER_00: then 100% they have to have a consequence for doing that.
42:36
And that consequence is really important because what you
42:40
tolerate,
42:40
you endorse.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: You're allowing it to happen.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I agree with all of that.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm probably a little bit more pessimistic than you'd like.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't think all prisoners can be rehabilitated.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: We should try.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: We should try.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: It's the trying, right?
42:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: Like,
42:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's a case of you're going to solve every single problem,
43:02
SPEAKER_00: and we know that because there are people who re-offend,
43:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:05
SPEAKER_00: time after time and end up spending their lives in prison.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: I think particularly for young boys when it is...
43:12
SPEAKER_00: I often view it as I'm like, it's a mistake that they've made.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: And just like how,
43:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:16
SPEAKER_00: students,
43:17
students will do things where they push boundaries and they'll
43:19
make mistakes.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: And I want to be really clear that I'm by no means condoning this,
43:25
SPEAKER_00: that as like,
43:27
SPEAKER_00: look,
43:27
SPEAKER_00: as a young woman,
43:28
SPEAKER_00: it's something that I faced and I've experienced,
43:30
SPEAKER_00: which is really why I wanted to come in here and say,
43:32
SPEAKER_00: as somebody who's been through that,
43:37
I agree there has to be a hard line and you have to crack down
43:41
and there has to be
43:41
a consequence and we should never get rid of that consequence
43:45
and we shouldn't
43:46
SPEAKER_00: excuse the behaviour.
43:47
But I do think we need to have in place,
43:49
I think it's two levels I actually wrote down.
43:51
SPEAKER_00: One of them is around what do you do once it's happened to educate?
43:55
SPEAKER_00: What do you do in response to that on a broader student level?
43:57
SPEAKER_00: If a student said or done something that's misogynistic,
44:00
how do you then tackle that from a whole school level to stop
44:04
that from happening
44:04
SPEAKER_00: with other students as well?
44:07
But it's also that other idea of pre-empting it and getting on
44:09
the front foot
44:10
SPEAKER_00: because it's what you identified where you said,
44:13
SPEAKER_00: well,
44:14
the manosphere exists because there's a marketplace for it
44:16
where there's no
44:16
SPEAKER_00: positives.
44:17
So how do we get on the front foot as a school and within our
44:22
existing health and
44:23
SPEAKER_00: well-being or whatever it is,
44:24
SPEAKER_00: education,
44:25
SPEAKER_00: how do we actually set young boys up to say,
44:27
here are the positives about you and here's how you can speak
44:30
positively about
44:31
SPEAKER_00: yourself?
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, here's how you can be a good man.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
44:36
And I think people would look at you sideways if you tried to
44:42
do that and tried to
44:43
SPEAKER_01: have that conversation.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's part of the problem.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: It's almost as if individuals can hold lots of complex ideas in mind,
44:55
SPEAKER_01: but as a society or as an organisation,
44:57
SPEAKER_01: it's really hard to do that.
44:58
And as soon as you start trying to have conversations about
45:02
positive versions of
45:06
SPEAKER_01: masculinity,
45:07
SPEAKER_01: people will,
45:08
SPEAKER_01: because they've got their own agendas and their own,
45:11
SPEAKER_01: that they're trying to follow,
45:12
SPEAKER_01: they will then say,
45:13
SPEAKER_01: oh,
45:13
SPEAKER_01: well,
45:14
SPEAKER_01: are you saying that women don't matter?
45:15
SPEAKER_01: Or are you saying that?
45:17
SPEAKER_01: And so,
45:19
dealing living in that complex things right yeah it's it's hard
45:23
and I'm not sure
45:25
there's an easy solution I'm glad you know I don't I don't 100%
45:30
agree with Adam
45:30
Voight on everything and we probably ought to talk about
45:33
restoration practices at
45:34
some point on on the podcast but I'm glad at least that he is
45:38
writing about this
45:39
and sparking the discussion we've had about this because I
45:43
think it's something
45:44
SPEAKER_01: that needs to be discussed more
45:47
SPEAKER_00: Look, I agree.
45:47
I think us talking about restorative practice would be a good
45:50
thing to discuss in a
45:51
SPEAKER_00: future episode.
45:52
But I do think we're on the same page that when students engage
45:56
in misogynistic or
45:58
SPEAKER_00: threatening behaviour,
45:59
there needs to be a hard line and there needs to be a no
46:01
tolerance approach with a
46:02
SPEAKER_00: clear consequence as part of that,
46:05
SPEAKER_00: regardless of whether that was caused by,
46:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:08
SPEAKER_00: young boys feeling as though they're not hurt and seeking to
46:12
address an unmet need or whether it is young boys who just
46:15
don't understand the
46:16
gravity of what they're saying there actually has to be a hard
46:19
line and a hard
46:20
consequence because it's wrong and we need to signal that on a
46:23
broader level I
46:24
think the other part that I'd want to bring up this point is I
46:29
do think there's
46:29
another cultural element too that has an influence on this I've
46:33
witnessed a lot of
46:34
conversations that have centered around this idea that men are
46:38
bad or all men are
46:39
SPEAKER_00: bad and I say that that's a quote
46:42
But they're always done with the caveat of except my dad or my
46:46
brother or my son.
46:47
And there's always something like that where it's these little
46:49
personal experiences.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: And whether or not you believe that to be true isn't really relevant.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: I think what that conversation,
46:59
SPEAKER_00: regardless of anything,
47:01
SPEAKER_00: regardless of the number of fights that I've started with people in that
47:04
SPEAKER_00: conversation,
47:06
SPEAKER_00: regardless of that,
47:08
SPEAKER_00: it's missing what a good man looks like.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: and that modeling.
47:13
And I feel like I'm someone who's really lucky to say that I
47:16
have a lot of really
47:16
SPEAKER_00: good men in my life,
47:18
SPEAKER_00: both as friends and as colleagues at work.
47:20
And I think that these men do a really great job of modeling to
47:24
the younger boys.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: This is what it is to be a good man.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: And this is what it is to be respectful.
47:29
And they're not doing that at the expense of other,
47:34
I guess,
47:35
classical masculine traits.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: These guys will go out there and
47:39
SPEAKER_00: you know, play sport and, you know, I'm in Queensland, right?
47:42
SPEAKER_00: To play rugby, play rough sports.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: No,
47:46
SPEAKER_00: they'll go out and they'll play sport,
47:47
SPEAKER_00: but they're not,
47:49
SPEAKER_00: they're not then saying,
47:50
SPEAKER_00: well,
47:51
SPEAKER_00: that's an excuse for me to then be disrespectful for women.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think they do a really good job of overtly showing that.
47:57
And I think that's what's probably missing from this
47:59
conversation is we're very
48:01
SPEAKER_00: quick to go,
48:02
SPEAKER_00: oh,
48:04
SPEAKER_00: here's something that's bad and it is,
48:06
SPEAKER_00: but
48:07
what's a positive role model for a young boy and what does that
48:11
look like?
48:14
SPEAKER_01: What you're basically describing is the water that we're swimming in.
48:20
So give it 100 years and people will look back and say,
48:22
oh,
48:23
that was a very peculiar moment.
48:24
And they will think about some of the ways that we think about
48:27
things now and
48:28
SPEAKER_01: they'll say,
48:29
SPEAKER_01: that was really strange.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: And why did that?
48:31
SPEAKER_01: Because it's the water we're swimming in.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: Classing a whole gender as basically problematic
48:37
apart from a few individuals is transparently absurd but we
48:41
live in a moment where
48:43
that's it is it is a thing and people will do that and you know
48:49
for me things like
48:50
you know having having strength but choosing to be kind you
48:55
know these are and
48:57
SPEAKER_01: again people say yeah women can be strong too yes absolutely they can
49:01
SPEAKER_01: Great.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: Strength to women.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: Good qualities of people.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it doesn't have to be gendered.
49:06
Well,
49:06
maybe it doesn't have to be,
49:07
but boys want to know what a good man looks like.
49:12
And having strength,
49:15
but choosing to be kind and not choosing to abuse that.
49:19
Is the quality,
49:20
is a quality,
49:21
not the one,
49:22
there's several,
49:23
but is a quality of a good man?
49:24
SPEAKER_01: But again,
49:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm starting to almost come out in hives even talking like this,
49:29
SPEAKER_01: because it's so at odds with what we,
49:32
SPEAKER_01: how we discuss things in society.
49:34
SPEAKER_01: But it's gonna, if we're gonna solve this problem,
49:37
It'll have to be a shift that involves people like us because
49:41
we work with young men.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: And so we're going to have to start grappling with some of these ideas,
49:46
SPEAKER_01: even if it makes us squirm and shift uneasily in our seats.
49:56
SPEAKER_00: Thank you everyone for listening to today's podcast.
49:59
If you want to reach out to either of us,
50:01
our socials are down in the show notes.
50:03
SPEAKER_00: And if there's future articles,
50:05
SPEAKER_00: podcasts,
50:06
SPEAKER_00: or anything that you would like us to discuss,
50:08
SPEAKER_00: please reach out to us on any of our socials below.