Latest / Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan / Your Brain on Prayer — The Surprising Connection Between Scripture and Neuroscience | Ep. 22

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Your Brain on Prayer — The Surprising Connection Between Scripture and Neuroscience | Ep. 22 · Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, welcome to Fulfilled.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Rebecca Sheehan.
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  If you've ever wondered whether faith and science really belong
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  in the same
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  SPEAKER_01: conversation,
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  SPEAKER_01: this episode is for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Today,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm sitting down with Joe Hargreaves,
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  a UK-based therapist who uniquely integrates modern
• 0:28
  neuroscience and faith.
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  SPEAKER_01: Joe is also an author,
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  SPEAKER_01: speaker,
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  SPEAKER_01: and podcast host who's built a powerful online community around these
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  SPEAKER_01: conversations.
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  SPEAKER_01: Her passion is helping us see how science isn't replacing faith.
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  SPEAKER_01: In many ways, science is catching up with scripture.
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  Recent discoveries about the human brain actually echo what
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  scripture has been
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  SPEAKER_01: teaching us about human nature all along.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jo, welcome to Fulfilled.
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  SPEAKER_00: Rebecca, thank you so much for having me.
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  What originally drew me to your work is how you'll take a
• 1:02
  single Bible verse and
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  SPEAKER_01: then walk people through the neuroscience that lines up with it.
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  I love if you can share a few examples of what that looks like
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  and how you started
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  noticing these connections between scripture and the brain in
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  the first place.
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  SPEAKER_00: You've said it so brilliantly that science is catching up with scripture.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's exactly that.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's so much of what is being discovered in the world of neuroscience and
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  SPEAKER_00: psychology now reflects what we're taught in the word of God.
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  SPEAKER_00: So gratitude,
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  SPEAKER_00: for example,
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  SPEAKER_00: we're able to see what happens in a human brain when we're grateful and
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  SPEAKER_00: And able to realise,
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  SPEAKER_00: and this was a kind of key part of my career,
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  SPEAKER_00: is realising that when your brain is grateful,
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  SPEAKER_00: that it's not easily able to be anxious at the same time,
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  SPEAKER_00: that gratitude and anxiety create a neural tug of war in the brain.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we're able to see that in real time, to capture that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But really,
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  SPEAKER_00: Paul,
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  SPEAKER_00: the Apostle Paul,
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  SPEAKER_00: tells us a very similar story in Philippians 4 verse 6 that says,
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  SPEAKER_00: Don't be anxious about anything,
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  SPEAKER_00: but instead through prayer,
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  SPEAKER_00: supplication and thanksgiving,
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  SPEAKER_00: or gratitude.
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  SPEAKER_00: make your request known to God.
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  And then he goes on to almost talk about the consequence of
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  that and say the peace
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  of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your heart
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  and your mind in
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  SPEAKER_00: Christ Jesus.
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  And there's so many beautiful intersections like that all the
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  way throughout
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  SPEAKER_00: scripture where we think,
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  SPEAKER_00: wow,
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  SPEAKER_00: doesn't it make sense that the God who knitted us together,
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  SPEAKER_00: he knows how
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  SPEAKER_00: to make us holy and whole.
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  We read in 1 Thessalonians 5.23 that God will make us holy and
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  whole in our spirit,
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  SPEAKER_00: in our soul and in our body.
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  And I think sometimes we're really good at seeing the spiritual
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  side of things.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we feel okay about,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: the mind,
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  SPEAKER_00: the will,
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  SPEAKER_00: the emotions,
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  SPEAKER_00: the part that David really wrestles with and talks about.
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  SPEAKER_00: But very often we kind of forget about the body and that this body,
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  SPEAKER_00: the body that we are occupying right now is a temple of the Holy Spirit,
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  SPEAKER_00: but God knitted it together.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so he knows what regulates our nervous system,
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  what gets us from a place of feeling anxious and overwhelmed or
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  flat and numb into
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  SPEAKER_00: a place of feeling grounded.
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  And it just so happens that they're just practices that
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  Christians do normally.
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  People from church will often say,
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  how can I make my church more mental health friendly?
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'll say, you don't need to look to the things of the world.
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  SPEAKER_00: Just do the things that we do as a church.
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  SPEAKER_00: We join together as a community.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's incredibly grounding for people.
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  SPEAKER_00: We sing and we worship.
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  Not only do we spiritually take our eyes off ourselves when we
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  do that and fix them
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  SPEAKER_00: on God,
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  SPEAKER_00: but we breathe deeper.
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  SPEAKER_00: Our heart rate regulates.
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  SPEAKER_00: We begin to get into a place of gratitude.
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  We get filled with serotonin,
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  the feel-good hormone,
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  dopamine,
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  the reward hormone.
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  So there's so many things that we do just as followers of
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  Christ that are excellent
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  SPEAKER_00: mental health advice.
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  SPEAKER_01: Along those lines, how does prayer affect our neural pathways?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, prayer is incredibly important.
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  powerful in fact actually i'll give an example today just of my
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  own prayer life i
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  thought i'm gonna go and sit with jesus for a bit before i
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  start my work and so i
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  sit down and i'm distracted i'm thinking about what i'm gonna
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  have for lunch i'm
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  thinking about all the jobs that i need to do all the emails
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  that i need to get
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  back to and i keep saying sorry jesus i'm sorry i'm sorry i
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  want to spend time
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  SPEAKER_00: focusing on you and i thought you know the story of mary and martha
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking, my mind is just a Martha mind.
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  SPEAKER_00: Even when I'm physically still and trying to sit at the feet of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_00: my mind is busy,
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  SPEAKER_00: busy,
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  SPEAKER_00: busy.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I think just repeating the name of Jesus or repeating a scripture,
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  SPEAKER_00: something I'm repeating at the moment is Psalm 23,
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  SPEAKER_00: one of the last lines,
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  SPEAKER_00: surely your goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life.
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  And this is where prayer kind of intersects with biblical
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  meditation,
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  because prayer
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  Biblical meditation is about filling your mind with the word of
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  God,
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  not emptying your mind.
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  Like the world says,
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  sit there and empty your mind to become at one with the
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  universe.
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  SPEAKER_00: I can't do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm not able to empty my mind.
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  SPEAKER_00: Too many things pop into it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to become at one with the universe.
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  SPEAKER_00: I want to connect with the one who created the universe.
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  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
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  SPEAKER_01: So when we talk about emptying our mind,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you ever refer to the story in Matthew 12,
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  where Jesus talks about the unclean spirit that returns to the
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  empty house.
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  It's just a warning that it's not enough to just to get rid of
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  evil influences,
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  SPEAKER_01: but you actually have to fill it with something else.
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  So how do you fill your mind during meditation besides
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  repeating scripture?
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  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
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  And that is such a good analogy and such a good scripture to go
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  to because people
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  SPEAKER_00: struggle with intrusive thoughts.
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  And that can be hugely worrying for people,
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  particularly if those thoughts feel ungodly.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there have been times in my life,
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  SPEAKER_00: particularly at the start of my journey of meeting Jesus,
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  where something would pop into my head and I'd worry that I'd
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  lost my salvation.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'd be like, God, I'm so sorry.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't really think that.
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  I've learnt now that they're just thoughts and that we don't
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  give power to them.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so just being mindful of that, emptying your mind.
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  SPEAKER_00: I totally agree with you, Rebecca.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're not designed to do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the scripture shows us we're designed to fill it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Paul talks about it in Philippians 4 verse 8.
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  SPEAKER_00: Things that are true, noble, excellent, praiseworthy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Think about those things.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I think taking some time to think intentionally.
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  SPEAKER_00: that's a way that you can meditate.
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  SPEAKER_00: Using that kind of Paul,
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  SPEAKER_00: Philippians 4 verse 8,
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  SPEAKER_00: think about something that's true,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's noble,
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  SPEAKER_00: excellent,
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  SPEAKER_00: praiseworthy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Think about that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Meditate might be just,
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  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: taking a phrase,
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  SPEAKER_00: taking a word,
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  SPEAKER_00: taking a scripture,
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  SPEAKER_00: making it your prayer.
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  SPEAKER_00: I also love using this idea of breath prayer for meditating.
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  SPEAKER_00: So breath is incredibly powerful for regulating your nervous system.
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  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, it's God's design.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I love to use breath prayer.
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  SPEAKER_00: So
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  inhaling surely your goodness and mercy and exhaling will
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  follow me all the days of
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  my life and so filling your mind with scripture I mean it does
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  three amazing things
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  so three things happen number one you thicken your prefrontal
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  cortex this is this
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  front part of your brain where you do all of your best thinking
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  so those who
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  regularly meditate on scripture really are wiser they make
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  better decisions from a
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  brain landscape point of view the part of their brain involved
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  in higher thinking
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  SPEAKER_00: and
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  SPEAKER_00: Good decisions are stickened.
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  SPEAKER_00: Number two is you soothe the amygdala.
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  SPEAKER_00: The amygdala is the part of your brain,
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  SPEAKER_00: like the internal fire alarm that goes off when you sense fear.
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  SPEAKER_00: So if you're fearful or anxious, that part of your brain is very active.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you can see that on scans as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: So if you struggle with anger,
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  SPEAKER_00: worry,
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  SPEAKER_00: anxiousness,
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  regular biblical meditation soothes that part of the brain and
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  makes it less
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  SPEAKER_00: reactive.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was doing another episode with Voice of the Martyrs.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're familiar with that organization.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: But there's this incredible anecdote of its founder,
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  SPEAKER_01: Richard Wurmbrand,
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  when he was in solitary confinement for an insane amount of
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  time in the dark.
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  He would repeat the Lord's Prayer over and over and over in his
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  mind to keep him
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  SPEAKER_01: from panicking,
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  SPEAKER_01: to keep him from going crazy.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it worked.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like by the end, he was still saying, our father, our father, our
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  SPEAKER_01: So what you're saying,
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  SPEAKER_01: like the fact that,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: utilizing your prefrontal cortex instead of the amygdala,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: that was just a really cool example of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: That is incredible.
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  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
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  And,
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  and I think that's similar to what happened to Paul and Silas
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  when they were in prison.
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  is they chose to sing they chose to worship so not only is that
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  a spiritual it's
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  SPEAKER_00: almost like spiritual defiance isn't it against the against the regime of
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  hopelessness and the enemy's plans and schemes that actually we
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  come against that
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  regimes and i know that that absolutely is true from what
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  happens in your physical
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  SPEAKER_00: brain in your neurobiology what neurotransmitters
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  SPEAKER_00: get released into your body.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so it really is incredible.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then also it helps integrate different parts of your brain.
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  So your brain works better together as a whole organ when
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  you're meditating,
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  SPEAKER_00: when you're ruminating on scripture.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then that helps regulate you emotionally.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the good news is that if you are a worrier,
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  if you know how to churn over worst case scenario thoughts or
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  make your own health
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  SPEAKER_00: diagnoses up or,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you get stuck in that thought loop of worry,
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  SPEAKER_00: then you can meditate on the Bible.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's exactly the same part of your brain that you're using.
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  SPEAKER_00: But instead of using it for worry, we're using it for worship.
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  Along those lines,
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  I want to talk about neuroplasticity and the way we can
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  meditate.
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  renew our mind and become more godlike if you could talk about
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  what neuroplasticity
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  SPEAKER_01: is and where we see this talked about in the bible yeah absolutely so
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  neuroplasticity i would call it god's grace knitted into you at
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  a cellular level
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  and i've written about that extensively it means if we've been
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  caught in cycles of
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  SPEAKER_00: worry worst case scenario thinking health anxiety high stress
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  SPEAKER_00: Whatever thought pattern that you realise you get caught in,
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  SPEAKER_00: I call it a thought loop,
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  SPEAKER_00: it just goes round and round and round,
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  SPEAKER_00: is that through meditation,
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  SPEAKER_00: through repetition,
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  through literally Romans 12 to being transformed by the
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  renewing of our minds,
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  that you are able to shift and decrease old thinking patterns
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  and build new ones.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this happens at a very intricate level in your brain.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we have the power to do it.
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  SPEAKER_00: which is incredible.
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  I think positive affirmations that I know,
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  like we talk about affirmations and intentions.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't, and the new age particularly talks about those.
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  SPEAKER_00: You'll know that with doing yoga,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's very much about setting your intention,
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  SPEAKER_00: saying your affirmations.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: That stuff works up to a point because it's hijacking God's design.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's like manifesting.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's all about ourself.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's all about being the gods of our own life.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's not it.
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  I thought it would be interesting to delve into manifesting a
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  little bit more
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  SPEAKER_01: because it's such a popular concept now.
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  SPEAKER_01: The secret to life to getting what you want is just visualizing it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's one of those very interesting things that has a root of truth in it.
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  SPEAKER_00: But with manifesting, none of it is submitted to God.
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  SPEAKER_00: So let me unpick the root of truth thing,
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  because the way God's designed our brain is our brain looks for
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  confirmation of
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  SPEAKER_00: what we've already told it to be true.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's called confirmation bias.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I often use when I'm teaching on this,
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  I would use a story for Numbers 13 of the 12 inheriting the
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  promised land.
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  SPEAKER_00: All of them see the same thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you've got the 12 spies.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're going into the promised land.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're scoping it out,
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  going back to Moses and telling him what's going on in this
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  promised land.
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  SPEAKER_00: And out of the 12,
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  SPEAKER_00: you have two of them,
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  SPEAKER_00: Joshua and Caleb,
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  SPEAKER_00: who see something different and they bring back a different report.
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  SPEAKER_00: The 10 of them say, we're going to get devoured.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're like grasshoppers.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's giants in the land.
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  SPEAKER_00: Two of them say, yeah, we can absolutely do it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now this has to do...
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  with what they believe joshua and caleb had absolutely
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  reconciled to themselves
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  we've been given this promised land we're going to go and
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  inherit it and so even
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  though they all see the same thing they see the same sights
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  they touch the same
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  fruit they smell the same smells they see the same giants two
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  of them have a
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  totally different perspective because they've already decided
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  and reconciled in
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  SPEAKER_00: their brain this is what we're going to do and so
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  SPEAKER_00: This is the same with us, is that we have a confirmation bias.
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  SPEAKER_00: We also have something called the reticular activating system.
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  It's kind of at the back at the bottom of our brain and it acts
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  like a filter.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I know that when I was trying to have a baby,
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: everybody,
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  SPEAKER_00: I felt like everybody was pregnant.
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  SPEAKER_00: I would see it everywhere.
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  Now I literally cannot remember the last time I noticed a
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  pregnant person.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just not on my radar at all.
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  in the same way that i might learn a new word or i might um
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  hear about a new
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  concept if that's on my mind suddenly i'll be like that's so
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  weird i was just
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  thinking about that the other day and we can often think that
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  that's some kind of
• 13:17
  strange spooky thing but it isn't is our brain looking for
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  confirmation of what
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  we've already told it is the filter of our brain and so there
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  is some kind of
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  SPEAKER_00: connection with manifesting
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  that we kind of set our sights and set our intention and then
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  we become programmed.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's that little bit of truth, but it's been so twisted.
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  I just don't love the term manifesting because it makes you out
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  to be this little
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  SPEAKER_00: God of your own life.
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  SPEAKER_00: And actually,
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  SPEAKER_00: as a follower of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_00: I want to submit my life to Jesus and say,
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  SPEAKER_00: not my will,
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  SPEAKER_00: but yours be done,
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  SPEAKER_00: like Jesus said.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the same way, I think karma is just this terrible idea.
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  SPEAKER_00: People always think it sounds all really nice, but it's revenge.
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  It's utter revenge and something really awful of like,
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  well,
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  you kind of deserved it.
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  SPEAKER_00: You must have done something.
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  Think about someone going through the most traumatic thing and
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  you sat there
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  SPEAKER_00: thinking,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  SPEAKER_00: I wonder what you did to welcome this into your life.
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  SPEAKER_00: Whereas God doesn't work on that economy.
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  SPEAKER_00: He works on grace, undeserved merit and favour.
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  That's such a more profound truth than that theory of karma or
• 14:21
  manifesting.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's just really void of
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: God in charge and us as submitted to him.
• 14:27
  God's word offers full resurrection,
• 14:29
  just complete resurrection of your being.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so all the way throughout scripture,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: it gives us words that shift our mindset,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: that shift our thinking,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: shift our biology.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the most powerful
• 14:42
  is around love is knowing that we're incredibly deeply loved
• 14:46
  and we can choose to
• 14:48
  access God through Jesus through his atoning work on the cross
• 14:52
  and the blood of
• 14:53
  Christ we can access God and receive his love that's readily
• 14:58
  available and that
• 15:00
  love changes your biology and I love this if you've spoken to
• 15:03
  me for any amount of
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: time I will get this into a conversation
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: is that when we meditate on the love of God,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: when we focus on how loved we are,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: when we shape our spirit,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: our soul and our synapses according to the word and the love of God,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: your body releases oxytocin.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oxytocin is the bonding hormone, the love hormone.
• 15:23
  And our oxytocin is the very hormone neurotransmitter that
• 15:27
  helps get rid of cortisol.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: The stress hormone,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: the one that we get overrun with when we're anxious,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: worried,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: fearful,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: stressed.
• 15:34
  And so we then come face to face with another biblical truth is
• 15:37
  that perfect love,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: oxytocin,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: casts out fear,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: cortisol.
• 15:41
  And that happens in the spiritual realm,
• 15:43
  but it happens in the physical realm too.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So meditating and rewiring your brain according to the love of God,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: not how your father spoke to you,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: not how your mother spoke to you,
• 15:53
  but how God speaks to you will literally shift the landscape of
• 15:57
  your brain.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Does neuroplasticity tie into generational sin, to that concept of
• 16:04
  passing something down to your kids wow wow okay you're going
• 16:09
  deep okay you're
• 16:10
  making me work right okay so yeah neuroplasticity well things
• 16:16
  do get passed down we
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: all have predispositions that are passed down to us and
• 16:21
  the way that they're passed down is through our epigenetics,
• 16:24
  which isn't our DNA per se.
• 16:27
  It's almost like Google Translate for our DNA,
• 16:30
  or it's a predisposition that we could step into.
• 16:33
  So say alcoholism,
• 16:35
  for example,
• 16:36
  that predisposition can be passed down generation to
• 16:39
  generation.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can have two twins, potentially one who gets
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: brought up in a very different environment to another.
• 16:46
  One twin's circumstances causes that epigenetic predisposition
• 16:50
  to come to the forefront.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Another one's doesn't.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a predisposition.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: But here's where neuroplasticity is so powerful,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: is that your predisposition doesn't have to be your predestination.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be a sentence over your life.
• 17:06
  So I don't want people to listen to this and think,
• 17:08
  well,
• 17:08
  I must have messed it up.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm not good enough to do it.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody can do this.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hope-filled narrative to say, if you feel hopeless, there is hope.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you feel like you never can change, you can.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you feel stuck, God's word can help unstick you.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a really helpful, hopeful narrative.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to go back to one thing you said about intrusive thoughts.
• 17:31
  We're trying to be Christ-like,
• 17:33
  but our instincts,
• 17:34
  our human-based instincts are not.
• 17:37
  The Bible talks about this so much,
• 17:38
  and there are so many examples of that.
• 17:41
  Does neuroscience explain how we can be so different from how
• 17:45
  Christ calls us to be?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: You mean this, like our struggle with our humanity?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, yes.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: One of my most regular sayings is, Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: That really is my most regular prayer.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: And Paul talks about it himself, doesn't he?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about all the credentials that he's got,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: but also talks about the fact that he's the worst of them all.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you can sit with yourself
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: your own desires, your own selfishness, your own envy, your own greed.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: It brings you to a place of grace, doesn't it?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Of saying, thank you, God.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's a psalm I love that talks about God being slow to anger,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: abounding in love,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: full of compassion.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: And when I recognize my human predisposition towards sin,
• 18:31
  that I am made in God's image,
• 18:33
  but also I am riddled with these sinful desires.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: It brings me more into a place of complete gratitude for grace.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And gratitude is a huge antidote for anxiety and worry.
• 18:45
  And so then that beautiful mix of gratitude towards God and
• 18:50
  understanding of his
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: grace,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that
• 18:54
  That for me has been incredibly transformative because what we
• 18:57
  don't want to do is
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: get caught in the shame of who we are.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: No one whose hope is in him will ever be put to shame.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: We read that in scripture.
• 19:06
  Wouldn't it be beautiful if moving forward science and theology
• 19:11
  were more and more
• 19:12
  fused together and there wouldn't be such a stigma attached to
• 19:16
  scientific research
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: from a biblical perspective?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that always seems to get me in trouble with Christians,
• 19:27
  and actually I love it because people are really wanting to
• 19:31
  honour the word of God.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, good for you.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: I want to honour the word of God too.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: I have a healthy fear of God and the word of God.
• 19:38
  But something that gets me in trouble is often talking about
• 19:40
  the vagus nerve.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's our 10th cranial nerve.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's the main nerve of our parasympathetic nervous system.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: It passes through every major organ in our body.
• 19:48
  But often when I talk about the vagus nerve,
• 19:50
  people say that's very new age.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't talk about that.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll just say, well, who gave us the vagus nerve?
• 19:55
  If we have this key nerve that gets activated and vibrates when
• 19:59
  we sing and that
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: then when we sing,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: it activates the vagus nerve and that grounds us and gets us into the
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: parasympathetic,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: the grounded part of our nervous system.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: God's created that.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't belong in a new age literature or in a science lab.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's God's design.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And all of it is to bring us to a place of worship and awe to him.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wrapping up,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: if there could be one takeaway for anyone listening and watching,
• 20:26
  how they can apply neuroscience to their daily spiritual lives
• 20:31
  or anything that
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: they should remember,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: what would it be?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 20:36
  Okay I would say I would go back to the verse that I mentioned
• 20:41
  at the beginning 1
• 20:42
  Thessalonians 5 23 where it says may God himself the God of
• 20:47
  peace sanctify you
• 20:48
  through and through and make your whole spirit soul and body be
• 20:53
  kept blameless at
• 20:54
  the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ or the message paraphrase
• 20:57
  be holy and whole.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: So this idea that we're spirit soul and body
• 21:02
  I would say is incredibly powerful when you're looking at
• 21:05
  submitting neuroscience
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: to scripture,
• 21:07
  that God hasn't just created you as a spiritual being or you're
• 21:11
  not just a soul
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: full of emotions and you're not just your mind.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: but you are your physical body and all of those things working together.
• 21:19
  And so I think if you're wanting to take your first step is
• 21:22
  just be mindful if
• 21:22
  you're looking towards wholeness and wellness and holiness is
• 21:27
  that we need to
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: incorporate our whole tripartite being,
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: spirit,
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: soul and body,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: and be mindful of how God would connect with you in all of those ways.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's so important for us.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And as Christians, we don't think, oh, mind-body connection, but
• 21:43
  It is such an integral part of our being that I think that's an
• 21:47
  important reminder.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And often that term holistic, again, gets taken by the new age.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, no, that's God's idea.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is his design.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: He's created it that way.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so every piece of my work is really meant to point us towards Jesus.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say, don't look at neuroscience for neuroscience's sake.
• 22:08
  Look at how it's submitted to the word of God and to God's
• 22:12
  design that we read
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: about in Psalm 139.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: So wrapping up,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: if anyone wants to follow you or delve deeper into your work,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: where should they go?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Great question.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've just had a new website done.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: It is faithfilledtherapy.com.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's loads of resources on there.
• 22:30
  And there's also loads of free resources if you come and hang
• 22:33
  out at Substack,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: which is the Faith-Filled Therapist on Substack.
• 22:37
  And then I'm most active on Instagram,
• 22:39
  again,
• 22:39
  which is the Faith-Filled Therapist.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: But loads of free resources on my Instagram and on Substack.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Joe Hargreaves, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think you've given everyone a lot to think about.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 22:54
  And thanks to all of you,
• 22:55
  our amazing listeners and viewers,
• 22:57
  for tuning in.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed this episode, your support means so much to me.
• 23:03
  So if you would like and subscribe wherever you get your
• 23:06
  podcasts,
• 23:07
  I really appreciate it.
• 23:09
  Stay inspired,
• 23:10
  keep trusting in God's plan for your life,
• 23:12
  and we'll see you next time.