Latest / Half the Picture / #36 - DANIEL GOLDHABER

Transcript

#36 - DANIEL GOLDHABER · Half the Picture

• 0:00
  I find it insane that it would actually be like a very accurate thing to say about most filmmakers that they don't really care much about what's going on in the world and they don't really have much to say about it.
• 0:12
  We're living during kind of like catastrophic times. It's literally like storytellers jobs to try to understand and reflect that.
• 0:20
  And I don't know how you can like be a storyteller in any sort of good conscience and be like yeah the world around us is like rapidly changing but like who cares.
• 0:30
  Hello Daniel, welcome to Half the Picture. How are you doing today? I'm great. How are you?
• 0:42
  I'm doing very well. As we were saying before we started recording I mean I've been a fan of yours since I saw how to blow up a pipeline your previous film when it hit UK cinemas a couple of years ago.
• 0:51
  So when you said you're up for coming on the pod I was really really chuffed. So thank you for for giving up your time and coming on half the picture.
• 0:58
  Thank you so much for having me. Crack in. So yeah I mean your new film, Faces of Deaf which is just opened I want to say in the US it's been out for a few days now.
• 1:08
  Yeah I think we opened, we opened Friday it's Tuesday so however many days that makes it like five.
• 1:15
  Yeah yeah and how does it feel to finally have your your film out in the world if you had any memorable reactions to it yeah.
• 1:22
  It's been it's been strange I mean like I think it's it's a movie that I made two years ago or I finished two years ago rather I shot three years ago and so I think you know it's it's a bit you know usually you you're making a movie up until you know
• 1:39
  two to five months before it comes out but when there's this kind of like very long lag time before the movie comes out you've kind of like I've kind of moved on artistically I'm interested in different things I've been thinking about different things
• 1:52
  why maybe you know approach making movies in a slightly different way and and then you know you're kind of out doing a press toward the movie and it's a little like well I feel like I'm talking about my baby pictures and I'm like yes this is this is what I was thinking when I was four years old but it's not necessarily what I'm thinking today.
• 2:08
  So there's there's there's there's kind of a little bit of cognitive dissonance that's like a part of the whole process of taking a movie out you know like this.
• 2:16
  I can imagine and if people have you because the films all about kind of you know in some ways you say it's film all about engagement and like people kind of yeah obviously you know it's about social media people communicating people giving their opinions on things.
• 2:27
  I mean if you had any interesting opinions and you know reviews back on the film from people who have seen it.
• 2:34
  I think it was interesting to me and this has been like a novel experience is you know I was very lucky that Cam and pipeline had more or less universal flame faces that has not been the case you know we're hovering it around or whatever 70% of Rotten Tomatoes.
• 2:51
  Which is still like a very respectable score especially for a horror movie especially for a horror movie that has like real death footage in it.
• 2:59
  But I think that like what I found very interesting is the number of like extremely angry reviews like in like half star reviews from like critics I like really the love and respect and grew up reading even like who like hate the movie.
• 3:16
  They don't just think it's like whatever they hate it.
• 3:19
  And I think it's compelling just like in a lot of those reviews they'll be like you know this is a vital piece of work that you know is pretending to take on questions of violence and media but ultimately becomes the exact thing that it's criticizing.
• 3:35
  And it's like yes are you familiar with satire like like you know like yes like this is a movie that is about how kind of like the impulse to remake faces of death is a questionable and the like kind of toxic impulse like that's what the movies about like the movie.
• 3:56
  And like to me I think I was struck a little bit in watching it at the premiere at like how much the last 30 minutes of the movie you almost just like feel like Arthur himself the killer is directing the slasher set pieces like he's waiting for Margot to go run from him more so that you know you're getting more enjoyment and entertainment out of it like the movie is about literally like giving the people what they want including like.
• 4:24
  You know the ways in which it just starts to kind of service the horror genre material out of like necessity of having kind of like a commercial impulse behind it like it that's obviously like a very self loathing quality for a movie to have.
• 4:40
  But I think it's like very interesting in another ways it's like we always approach the movie is kind of being like the palm ask style exercise and there's also quality and like the palm the movies that can get a little self loathing when it comes to kind of like the genre set pieces of it all.
• 4:59
  And you know there was like a very similar critical reaction to his work so I don't know I think like to me it's been very interesting seeing those kind of anger angry you know like very upset reactions to the film and I I take a certain at first I was a little upset by it but I think I've realized that that's actually something that I should feel pride over.
• 5:25
  I guess it almost means like it's it's touching a nerve somewhere for a lot of people it seems exactly exactly I don't think the films had it's full release in the UK yet but I mean speaking as a I guess it's a UK representative I mean I really enjoyed the film so no I thought it was a blast and I mean before we dive into it I mean a question that I've been asking some of our various guests on the pod recently who have worked in different sort of aspects of films so we've had on composers we've had on you know editors and actors like you know I've been asking them.
• 5:55
  What makes like a good insert film for the work profession here what makes a good director do you think to you.
• 6:02
  I think to me what makes a good director I mean I think that like a director's job is hiring people communicating the vision of the work and blocking scenes.
• 6:18
  There are directors out there who I think come in and they know exactly what the movie is going to be and you know they shoot the movie and it's kind of what's in their head and like I think the Cohen brothers are kind of like that you know what I mean like I think they really.
• 6:31
  There's there's not a lot of you don't hear a lot of like great improvisations on the Cohen brothers set in fact you often hear the opposite that they're like no it's whereas pancakes house and far go.
• 6:41
  And I think for me it's like it's really about like that's just not who I am on on somebody that like I'm interested in working with a group of people and finding a movie with them through the process of collaborating on it and you know I think that ultimately at the end of the day with how.
• 7:02
  Especially industrial film production is structured most of your ability to really like direct direct the movie where it's like your imprint is on it is when you're blocking the actors in the camera during rehearsal you know on set they have doing it and like yes you've given all these notes to like the production designer and the costume designer and all that but like unless you're actually you know sketching the sets and you know designing the costumes and doing absolutely everything yourself.
• 7:30
  You know you're ultimately it's about just communicating your vision to the other fantastic artists that you've hired to work with you.
• 7:38
  So yeah I don't know I think that's that's that's it really is about collaboration and communication.
• 7:47
  That's interesting because a bunch of the other filmmakers who have asked that question to have said kind of similar things even those even those who want directors like composers that we had John Murphy on entire debates and they were saying how communication is is a key part of being a great composer and I think it sounds like it's the same then for being a director.
• 8:04
  Yeah absolutely I mean I would say that like the the best exercise that I had in learning film directing and films go I went to Harvard they have a small film program there and you know they teach this class called the yes 50.
• 8:20
  When I was called like AFVS which is like a much worse name for the department but they in this class you kind of on the second semester of this intro film class you shoot and cut everything on 16 millimeter but the second semester the entire class directs a film by committee.
• 8:38
  So there's no director on it and you kind of have to reach every decision making the movie by consensus and what I think is really interesting is that like you know generally speaking the way that film programs teach filmmaking is they teach this again I call it like an industrial process of filmmaking right it's it's it's the director is the kind of like military chiefed in of the movie and they're leading the charge and everybody else kind of follows behind them.
• 9:07
  But then when you end up teaching people is that like when they're the director they're the dictator and otherwise like you just have to follow in the footsteps of this kind of like you know organized thing that rebuilt that way so that you know studios could turn out 500 movies a year back in the day that they were doing that.
• 9:27
  And I think that now it there's so many different collaborative methodologies and having this experience where you're learning filmmaking not through the lens of the directors in charge but through the lens of we're all making this movie together and if I think that there's something that should happen I have to be able to communicate that that to my fellow filmmakers I have to be able to build consensus around that idea with my fellow filmmakers.
• 9:56
  And ultimately I have to be able to handle disagreement and conflict and I think that's very important because that's ultimately like what the art of directing is.
• 10:11
  And I've heard you talk about that kind of the importance of not only collaboration but communication and being able to work with people I mean I over across your body of work I mean relating that to to faces of death then I mean how do you think that's for you personally how do you think that's matured and developed as you've gone along as a director that that that skill of being able to work with people and deal with conflict and I guess relating that specifically to faces of death.
• 10:37
  I think I'm trying to get better at not panicking and things aren't going well on set honestly the pipeline production was like so so difficult to handle.
• 10:50
  You know and like I was the fiduciary responsibility on that film and we were going you know hundreds of thousands of dollars over budget during production and they're only making our days sometimes not making our days like I was just such a hard movie to shoot.
• 11:07
  The way that we did it and yeah I just I thought there was like not a day anything that movie that I didn't think like my career was over and you know so I think that then kind of getting to the place on faces where I was able to kind of be like okay it's not as bad as I plan I think that has that has helped enormously and just trying to kind of like see the crises through and and not kind of.
• 11:35
  Not retreating to this kind of like director meltdown that I think that you know you always end up in its own capacity but like finding that kind of like zen stability is really important.
• 11:50
  And how do you and in terms of energy like because that sounds like it must take a lot of energy I mean where do you where do you get the energy from I guess to go out there and meet you know the challenge of every day going on certain directing a movie.
• 12:04
  Good question I that's that's that's also very much a question I've been asking myself recently because you know I did two movies back to back with faces in pipeline even though it doesn't like a look like that in the calendar like.
• 12:17
  Pipeline came out April 7th 20 23 we started shooting faces on April 10th three days later and then you know there was not a break between them either was out of occasion that I took and then I went straight into post on faces for you know what ended up becoming a year of post production.
• 12:36
  And then was just kind of like spat out on the other end and and so yeah I'm like I think that now I am like in the in the interim time like the business has changed a lot and you know I'm still trying to now figure out like where my places in it and I think on some level.
• 13:00
  I get the energy from having a really good idea and that idea ends up kind of often being like something that doesn't necessarily that's a good story that's exciting cinematic but that also has kind of like a good place and purchase in the industry.
• 13:20
  And I've got a couple of those that I'm working with right now but I also think that like what hasn't necessarily presented itself yet is that like path of like oh okay like there's there's there's a way that I can see this idea becoming a reality now you know and it's I think when that presents itself that's that's the energy of self generating.
• 13:44
  I understand yeah and in terms of that thing of making a film a reality then I mean linking that directly to faces of death like because the face of death was interesting one of the many things about that that's interesting to me is the fact that it's this basically a modern update less I guess of direct remake more than modern update of this sort of classic 70s exploitation video nasty it would have been in this country you know band you know which is apparently showing real death on screen and I mean how did exactly did this project come about then for you.
• 14:14
  So I was approached by legendary directly I mean is a microphone maker and I were approached by legendary to make the movie you know it was not a film that was on my radar I you know they said hey they're making faces of death you interested we were like what's faces of death we went we watched it we were like this is not great but it's very interesting and it's it's cultural kind of.
• 14:39
  It's cultural like importance is very interesting and so we went and we came up with this take in part inspired by my background is a content moderator in part inspired by kind of you know the mass violence in Colorado that we grew up around when we were kids you know in part inspired by movies like targets and sounds of the lambs and we pitched it to them and they said yes and at the time this is very much kind of like a.
• 15:09
  Studio assignment that you know we just were also desperately looking for a job and develop the movie and I think I there were parts of me that I think up until the movie was done that we're very resistant to making this like I'm ultimately proud of the movie but as I said I think I'm proud of it in part because I think it's a very honest reflection of this kind of like I don't like I need a job like I need to work.
• 15:38
  This is an interesting opportunity to kind of like learn and experiment and try things out and you know get to shoot on 35 millimeter and get to work with like Barbie Ferrarine Daker Montgomery and get to kind of like see what it's like making a movie inside of the studio system and you know the ultimate ideas and like aesthetic values of this movie.
• 15:59
  I really love and I think are I think things that I'm really proud of as a filmmaker but it's like on another hand never a movie that like I wanted to make or that I would have made if I wasn't.
• 16:11
  You know if it wasn't a job if it was an assignment if it wasn't something that I needed to do to pay my bills at a time you know where I needed to happen.
• 16:20
  And so I think that like yeah and I think that there's an interesting way in which that has is reflected in the movie itself you know that I think has become more apparent to me in the two years since when I last saw it watching it at the world premiere.
• 16:40
  You know and and and you know but I think it's interesting like sometimes I think about movies like King of Comedy you know which scores as he also really didn't want to make and hated the experience making it and didn't like the movie when it was done.
• 16:54
  And there is this like deeply self-loathing quality do that film but it's it's interesting in it I think makes for like a very interesting reflection of the times and I think that like again I think that like there's this way in which like faces ends up being about like this like studio obsession with like squeezing every last bit of value out of us as people or out of our nostalgia out of our fear out of our trauma.
• 17:20
  You know and they're like how can we capitalize on that so that we can increase our share price and like oh hey yeah let's go remake an infamous fake snap film compilation because we think there's dollars and cents there like that I find to be like a profoundly bizarre reason to make a movie.
• 17:38
  And I think you feel that in the film is ultimately it's a movie about a serial killer who's like hey I can ring some extra value out of attention out of.
• 17:48
  We making faces of death been actually killing people just a very honest answer to that question.
• 17:55
  It's a good answer and yeah I mean because the film has a real sort of and actually all your films have this I found like a real provocative edge a political edge like you're clearly a filmmaker who cares about what's going on out there in the world and what's going on you know on our screens and you know how it's affecting us.
• 18:11
  And with as you say it was your first foray into like I guess proper studio filmmaking I mean did you find any pushback with this because I want to say that the production of film was quite was a little bit trickier times I want to say right did you have any push back on the studio on the film.
• 18:24
  Well one thing I just want to say about an earlier thing you say you're like oh you're you're really a filmmaker that cares about what's going on in the world and that has something to say about it.
• 18:32
  I find it insane that it would actually be like a very accurate thing to say about most filmmakers that they don't really care much about what's going on in the world and they don't really have much to say about it.
• 18:44
  If you're like hey we have a whole army of storytellers out there they don't care about what's happening in real life.
• 18:51
  You know I you'd be like what why are they telling stories like what's the point like for me it's not about like scoring points or or or you know even trying to like change people's minds about stuff.
• 19:05
  It's just about like we're living during kind of like catastrophic times and very unstable times and times in which the world is changing super rapidly around us.
• 19:17
  And it's literally like storytellers jobs to try to understand and reflect that.
• 19:22
  And I don't know how you can like be a storyteller in any sort of good conscience to be like yeah the world around us is like rapidly changing but like who cares.
• 19:33
  I find to be a very depressing idea.
• 19:37
  But outside of that you know I think that yeah it was it was a very hard movie to make and there's a lot of reasons for why that you know I don't really want to get into the fine grain aspects of just because it's it's it's ultimately I think you know that the way I would put it is as follows.
• 20:05
  We built a studio system in Hollywood to make movies to because because there was a time where like you know you just desperately needed created especially because images were scarce moving images were scarce and the only people that could create and produce moving images at scale was you know Hollywood and then other you know film industries around the world.
• 20:30
  And what they realized was that their competitive edge came from having great creatives driving the ship like when they were telling great exciting stories they made more money.
• 20:41
  And so they you know they became a market for good creatives and and for finding a way to support those creatives to do good work because when they were supported to do good work more money was made right.
• 20:53
  Well I think that what happened is as Hollywood has lost its scarcity edge when it comes to the creation distribution of moving images and even moving images at the you know things that are great scale taking good universes you could never imagine et cetera they continue to kind of lose that edge.
• 21:12
  They they have essentially tried to do risk the entire endeavor by you know stripping away all of the things that made the Hollywood Hollywood all the kind of creative support all the kind of you know freedom to find and explore things when making a movie and and.
• 21:32
  And you know production schedules are just gotten shrunk down further and further and further and a you know it it even just kind of like the move to digital photography which still cannot rival.
• 21:46
  You know cellular photography in terms of technical capability and it's like okay you're you're spending you know a hundred million dollars to make this movie but you're going to then compromise on the format that you're shooting it on to like save.
• 22:01
  200,000 like that doesn't make sense to me right but that's I think the kind of private equity modality of thinking that a lot of people have so even on our film which was much much much smaller movie.
• 22:16
  But I really wanted to shoot on film I really wanted to shoot on 35 because I wanted it to feel like it had this kind of like retro vibe to it you can totally feel the texture of the image and like it feels like a 70 slasher because we shot it in some capacity like a 70 slasher and that was like the pitch from the beginning but like that was an extremely hard fight for us you know and and so I think that sometimes like trying to push for those aspects of.
• 22:45
  You know just quality control on a movie is harder and harder and harder when I think that like the perspective of of the studios and the finance years is essentially like we're just trying to push out product who cares about quality but it's like ultimately that's where the competitive edge used to come from you know.
• 23:04
  I totally and in some ways it is as you say it's kind of it's met a textual to the film because the film is about content essentially and what you're describing it sounds to me is like yeah the standardization of filmmaking and the prevalence of content you know and like and let's just get it out there and pump it out there so that was kind of what you were coming up against by the sounds of it in some ways yeah yeah and I think that like it's hard because like.
• 23:27
  It's it's the entire business right now and I think that you can feel it in terms of like the way that studios and finance years make their decisions is based on what they think has value what they think is going to drive people to the cinema and.
• 23:44
  You know there's a great article in the Hollywood reporter about how you know during the hey day of the 90s when there were all these like super exciting culturally relevant movies coming out of Hollywood like most of the executives were in their late 20s and early 30s and so like they were super plugged into like what was happening and like those same executives from the 90s are still running Hollywood.
• 24:04
  You know and I think that there is a massive disconnect between what people actually want to go to cinema's to watch and what's being made and what's being marketed and how it's being marketed and how it's being distributed and how those decisions are being made and who's making them and you know I think that like the best possible example of this is iron love you know that is a movie that has zero dollars of conventional value behind it as far as Hollywood is concerned like you know not good reviews.
• 24:34
  There's no strong star presence you know no marquee distributor putting the movie out you know IP of an indie video game you know et cetera like and then there's also a common thought that like oh just because you're big on YouTube doesn't mean that anybody's going to buy movie tickets to see you in a film which is oftentimes true and yet that movie made 18 million dollars opening weekend.
• 24:54
  So it's like you have to look at iron lung and say like what is the business doing right if if they can miss something that significant then you have to reckon with the fact that the entire system evaluation that Hollywood is operating under is is is is bunk.
• 25:14
  It doesn't make any sense and yet that's what's driving the budgets that we get and and and all of that and so I think that ultimately when I look at whatever challenges we had on faces of death it comes down to like.
• 25:31
  These valuation questions where I think that the value in the movie is coming from one place and they think it's coming from another place or the fact that the writer strike happened to towards the way through production actor strike happened while we were in post we you know we're on start and stop hiatus is for a lot of time which was very challenging.
• 25:50
  You know you can talk about the fact that like we started developing the movie before covid and you know then we were kind of compending with you know everything that was happening to the studio system and it's still happening to the studio system in the theatrical studio system post covid and then ultimately it's a movie that does not exactly have a particularly kind outlook on.
• 26:12
  The perpetual you know development of IP and I think is is fairly antagonistic to the idea and I know that at least one head of marketing at one major movie studio so that he found the movie morally reprehensible and and I have trouble knowing some of the other movies that the studio puts out horror movies at the studio puts out it's like it wasn't the violence man.
• 26:38
  I think it was something else that maybe upset you so it's all that you know all that link together that I think i'm you know just it just was a challenging experience is a very long answer to your question but.
• 26:52
  No but it's very interesting and like you know but the movie you know you got the movie out there and it and you know at least for me you know in my opinion it works you know really well and it's a it's a cracking time and you mentioned before the cast because it's you know it's quite amazing cast that you got for the film I mean Barbie forever.
• 27:08
  You know so these great players that you had I mean what was the casting process like for the film.
• 27:16
  You know I I just met Barbie and decor was interested in them I met with decor for pipeline and had liked him and he came up again for this I met with him and similar with Barbie like you know I met with them and they had a just a really good take on the material and I honestly hadn't really seen their prior work even like I just.
• 27:37
  I liked what I felt that they could bring to this and I think that that's the thing is that like actors at the end of the day are people and they're ultimately limited on what they can bring to a movie with what their perspective on the movie is what their personal experience and their life is and.
• 27:55
  And when I think it comes to getting a great performance the best way to do that is to is to.
• 28:01
  I think meet the actor where they're at as a person and with every actor that's different but knowing what their personal connection to the material is like you can you can then figure out how to kind of like.
• 28:13
  Get them participating in the movie in a in a kind of like.
• 28:18
  holistic way and you know I think yeah that was that was really what was behind behind working with them and and you know it makes your job a lot easier as a as a filmmaker and there's definitely time for like reading actors for stuff is.
• 28:35
  This is very because you think somebody could have something to bring the role but you're not certain at the times you can be certain.
• 28:43
  Totally and that and I forgot to mention it but also Charlie xx like pops up for a few scenes in there as well I mean like how did that come about because you know she's such a sort of iconic little presence in there but like she can just she's in there but in quite a small contained way I mean does she get in touch with you did you get in touch with her.
• 29:00
  She reached it to us she was a fan of cam and she saw the press release that faces was happening and reached out through her agent was like hey can I be in the movie and we were like sure why not.
• 29:14
  You know there's literally one role left that we have in cast.
• 29:19
  And yeah we went from there because it's funny because there's that scene where she's kind of on the roof and she's smoking a joint and that's kind of her way of dealing with some of the horrible stuff that she has to do in her job as a as a content moderator.
• 29:32
  And I'm alright in thinking that you actually when you made the movie you showed it you have a friend who is a content moderator and you showed it to them.
• 29:40
  I mean what can you tell me about that what was their reactions to that world.
• 29:43
  But I also worked as a content moderator but not in kind of a corporate position.
• 29:48
  You know and I have a friend who works at a very corporate content moderation job and you know they watched the movie they liked it but they said that what we really nailed was the dead eye to stare.
• 30:03
  You know that you end up kind of falling into and but I what I also think is really interesting.
• 30:11
  This is like a total side note but like you know I read probably too many review and critical reactions to the movie than I should or tweets or letterbox reviews or what have you just because I more than anything I'm just like interested to see how people you know
• 30:28
  are responding to the film and what I find really interesting is that there's a lot of people that are like oh yeah as if content moderation has not moved overseas or all content moderators are bots now and it's like you kind of get these people that like kind of will like immediately show their
• 30:49
  ass a little bit in terms of their own prejudices or ignorance is about the fact that one is terrible content moderation still because it actually takes like quite a bit of like upper level thinking and and everything and two you can't move it overseas because there's too much cultural context that comes along with with content moderation still like.
• 31:13
  You ultimately need people that understand the local language understand the local politics and yeah I just I find all of that really interesting as a as a reaction that like yes of course that there's there's a desire to to move it overseas bit bit bit it at its core content moderation is ultimately the liability smokescreen you know it's ultimately something that the social media companies can point to and say see we're doing our job see we're keeping you safe see this is.
• 31:43
  The line item in our in our thing we're doing everything that we can and then you see stuff like exactly what came up in the Mark Zuckerberg opening eye the Zuckerberg Altman you know trial where you know you have Zuckerberg texting mask being like don't worry we're you know we're on the job getting rid of anybody who's talking about the identity of dos employees and it's like hold on a second like you should totally be allowed to speak about people who work for the federal government.
• 32:13
  Like that's that's like that's like a tried and true aspect of free speech so now you're saying that you're deploying the content moderation division at your company to like go play whack more with like with with with with speech that you find undesirable that you would like to censor that also feels like a very troublesome you know aspect of content moderation and I think that like that is something that I think we don't totally get into all of the you know political implications.
• 32:43
  And so in terms of situating it inside of the contemporary political problems but it's actually it's absolutely something that I think that we wanted to to point to with the kind of hypocritical approach that barbie's character has to the moderation work that she's doing.
• 33:01
  Yeah yeah and it's interesting because you mentioned AI like when you I want to say when you wrote and when you guys wrote and shot this movie AI was obviously around but it hadn't quite hit the online sphere and I guess the content sphere in the way that has now I mean it's become part of the the furniture many ways become a huge part of it I mean if you guys made had made the movie now since all that is sort of kicked off do you think that would have been implemented and incorporated more into the story like would you have gone down and explored that.
• 33:28
  Yeah I think it definitely would have been like you know what's interesting is you you see this with both.
• 33:35
  Days of death and cam like like their movies that are in many ways actually like entirely about AI without really being at that AI but I think that we wouldn't have.
• 33:47
  Leaned into AI much outside of like people in the comments saying you know AI this is AI or maybe like you know Margot's boss suggesting it or something I think that like one of the interesting things that are there's videos is like they're way too low fi and handmade and kind of like there's way too many kind of chaotic imperfections in them for their for that to be.
• 34:13
  believably AI you know and and so I think that like what you would see is very much the way that I think AI is.
• 34:23
  Operating in the contemporary culture right now which is more like yes there's people falling for AI scams 100% but people have been falling for like fake content.
• 34:35
  For very long time I think the biggest difference when it comes to AI is actually the fact that like you see people who are doubting stuff that's actually real because they think it's thick you know and now people can kind of.
• 34:49
  Doubt any sort of visual evidence that occurs on the internet because they're they're given like this this this you know get out of jail free card with like is it AI or not and I think that we would have leaned more into that though ultimately I think that like.
• 35:11
  I think that what we're we're talking about it whether or not we're literally calling it AI in in in both films.
• 35:18
  And with Cam then I mean linking that to Cam because you may you wrote this film with with it is a mosaic you know you're a frequent collaborator and co writer you know she.
• 35:27
  Cam was kind of based on her story and then you guys work together on this and the film is actually credited at the end of the credits it's a film by.
• 35:33
  Is a mosaic and Daniel gold I mean can you tell me a little bit about your working relationship and on this film.
• 35:39
  Yeah I mean it's it's it's I think with you say like we do a lot together we do as much if not more separately you know it's it's it's really like about coming together on the project that it makes sense and.
• 35:51
  You know this is a movie they we we pitched on like shortly after cam and and in some ways it was an extension of the work that we were doing on cam.
• 36:02
  Just in terms of the way that we were talking about the internet and I think the way that we render the internet and these films and work together on that and.
• 36:09
  You know I think that like what I love about working with he said I think that she introduced me to like much more of a pop sensibility in a lot of ways and and you know I've her favorite movie is really blonde.
• 36:26
  And and and and that was a movie that like until we really started working together like I didn't understand how to take that film seriously.
• 36:35
  You know and and understand the kind of like also even just the like the very strong political horror that that movie actually has and you know and and it's been interesting like even just watching the kind of I think cultural arc that.
• 36:53
  Cam has had as a film you know like I do like I know that that movie was hardcore on mood boards you know but but I.
• 37:04
  There's a lot of people who come up to me now and they're like that's the movie that inspired them to get into filmmaking that's a movie that like um you know I think.
• 37:12
  He also just in terms of the representation of sex work you know I think it it it was uh you know I look as I'm like Margo's got money troubles and how they're shooting the camming scenes and and you know I can see the influence that we've had there and you know but I think that like a lot of that was able to carry so much in my mind because of the ways that that movie is pop and the way that it's colorful and the way that it's can't be in the way that it's not taking itself too seriously and I think a lot of that you know comes through the.
• 37:42
  Collaboration with Lisa no it's a huge amount of fun that film and I know what you mean about that pop sensibility I mean it's funny because one of my girlfriend's very films is legally blonde too so I totally understand like you know kind of at my entry point into that film was through her but there is a huge amount there to sort of dive into and I guess yeah like sort of combining that sort of pop sensibility with that sort of political edge that kind of just feel like it's very much part of your kind of DNA's a filmmaker yeah exactly and and I think that like I don't know I'm also like I want to become.
• 38:12
  I want to work on movies that are maybe less explicitly political definitely one thing I'm working on right now is like super explicitly political but I hope that's.
• 38:21
  The end of the line for me because I I I I'm a little bit exhausted with my own didacticism you know I I I I'm interested in this kind of like genre movie is essay film but I think I'm also a little bit out of juice on feeling like I have anything new to do with that as a thing and I you know there's a lot of.
• 38:41
  You know there's always going to be some level of like political idea in what I'm doing you know as is the case with every movie like every film has some sort of a political idea that's operating in it whether it.
• 38:56
  It wants to admit it or not just because you know the choice to like get a group of people together and spend a shitload of money pretending to do something and then you know downloaded into the eyeballs of you know millions of people around the world is like that's a political act whether you want it to be or not the choices that you make are always motivated by politics and it's just ultimately a question of like you know what you want them to be.
• 39:24
  Absolutely there's a couple of sequences watching when I watch faces of deaf I was really impressed I mean with the kind of formal flourishes you are doing as a director on that film I mean there are some brilliant sequences in it that I was hoping to actually yeah to touch on and sort of dive into if I'm a I mean there's there's a fantastic use of split screen in it like one of the best use of split screen I've seen it in a few years
• 39:45
  in the last few years if I'm a like really brilliant and then also as a fun another as a terrific one a terrific tracking shot that kind of goes out of a bedroom down to a car along the street and back up into the building and it's kind of this sort of home invader break in sequence I mean what would these like to plan and shoot for you as a director.
• 40:03
  Yeah I mean the split screen sequence that was more a fee of editing that I would say was a fee to production you know we just we got a bunch of little bits and pieces and then it was about like you know there's like this extraordinary amount of information that gets kind of downloaded.
• 40:22
  In the audience like very very quickly that you're asking them to kind of process you know reddit threads and and this and that and and yeah it's like that's that's probably you know one of the things I'm proudest of in the film and one of the things I'm proudest of in my career also because like
• 40:40
  there's a few times as a filmmaker you're like I get to do something for the first time ever you know I get to kind of like I get to like actually push the split screen forward as as a device you know like no one's done this and and no one's done it in the way that I also think is like it's like it's so entertaining and it's fun and it's like literally pushing the boundary of like how much an audience can comprehend and two and a half minutes of filmmaking you know what I mean and it's
• 41:10
  you know I but it's like it's a lot of trial and error putting something like that together in terms of you know just like the animations of the you know what's happening on the screens and like all of that is having to be like very very precisely timed out.
• 41:25
  Yeah very challenging and then you know the one or ended up like that was in many ways kind of like
• 41:34
  that was a centerpiece of the entire production both from you know just I think a joy of making standpoint but also even just from like a logistics standpoint like we were kind of organizing the entire production around that shot in part just like it's to the building that we're in that's actually like a house that a guy lives in and we built Margot's apartment into it because we essentially need to turn a real building into like a little mini studio where we could build an apartment in the studio.
• 42:03
  And then that had windows large enough that you know are studying him up could walk out of them and so basically like the way that works that shot works you start in the building room with Margot and then you you come out and the study came up walks backwards onto a crane.
• 42:18
  The crane moves down.
• 42:21
  It's done to look at depends over to look at the car while the camera looks at the car to guys in the bedroom reinstall the window.
• 42:30
  And the camera gets down pushes into the car the second the study came up walks off the camera the crane has to move out of the way so that you know basically the guy walks out of the car killer walks out of the car we come around him now we turn back to just where we came from that's like the critical magic trick in the pieces you're like how how did the camera.
• 42:50
  Get from it to be you know how is that possible because you turned around you look at where you just came from light shuts off now we follow the killer into the house this part's pretty easy right we follow the killer into the house we follow the killer upstairs.
• 43:02
  Then we get into the hallway the killers in the hallway now we have to go through a wall well that's a fake wall that we built right so the camera just literally moves through the wall.
• 43:10
  You know and now and now you know the rest of kind of that shot is just like fairly standard you know tracking shot stuff.
• 43:20
  But it is about kind of like doing it in a way where you like feel like you're you're showing you're aware of all the ways the audience is going to think that you know you've done it or that you've cheated or whatever and that you do your your absolute.
• 43:38
  Um you know to kind of show all the all the places where you would have had a card up your your sleeve and show nope not one there.
• 43:46
  Totally and what was also was impressive to me about both of those equals is the fact that they were they weren't just technically impressive they didn't just look cool they actually were they served the story in a in a really you know profound way like the split screen like that not only did it you know did it operate stylistically as a device it didn't just look.
• 44:02
  You know fantastic it also that it was one of the best for me you do it so well because you had the cross parallels of both stories running at once and the viewer can look around the frame and follow both those tracks at once reminded me of the Jackie Brown split screen charity as Jackie Brown with Robert Forster in pound grit like I just I thought that just worked really well on narrative sense as well as a technical one.
• 44:22
  Yeah I mean and like what's interesting is like all of these technical or formal ideas like literally come from the script it's like you know we get to appoint the scrap where it's like okay.
• 44:33
  Arthur needs to find Margo and then you're just like it would be fun if this was a split screen right like that's it and also that's just a very economical way of doing this right like I don't want to be cutting back and forth like I actually.
• 44:46
  Like there's a lot of beaten potatoes exposition that needs to happen here that isn't very interesting so if it all happens at exactly the same time now it's very exciting.
• 44:55
  There's the same thing with the one or you know it's like oh we haven't seen Margo and Arthur together in the same shot yet.
• 45:00
  What if the shot when they finally collide with each other like they're connected in space in this like big fluid shot you know and and also I just think about hence it is what I also think is so interesting is most people don't even realize it's a one.
• 45:13
  I think they're so in it and there's so tense that they don't quite it's a showy as it is it's not actually that showy it's I think hopefully like more immersive than anything.
• 45:24
  And then yeah I mean and then I'm also very proud of I love the sniping sequence in the movie I think I think everything and kind of like the escape the house sequence I just aesthetically I think is so cool and I also really love the final fight as well.
• 45:41
  I think it's yeah it's intense is really rad it's great yeah I mean did you feel with with those sequences did you feel and it being your third movie did you feel like a
• 45:51
  desire to sort of I guess flex your muscles as a director you feel like I want to try this I want to try this now.
• 45:57
  Yes and no like there were aspects of the final fight scene where like I'd never got a chance to do like a real knockout drag out like kind of like you know bone crunching
• 46:09
  I remember seeing like the big bathroom fight scene and pineapple express when I was a kid and being like that's great and I've never seen anything like that I'd love to do more like that and I feel that way about kind of the
• 46:22
  final fight here like you just like don't feel like it's choreographed and I love I've seen that just don't feel like the choreographed you feel like anything could happen at any
• 46:30
  point in time and so that was kind of a little bit of a bucket list you think for me I mean like on some level like so is the split screen so is the like you know there's
• 46:41
  aspects of the sniping sequence to the you know more than anything I think it's just like it's just an exciting kind of filmmaking to work inside of you know.
• 46:54
  Absolutely and yeah I agree like that final fight you know it feels genuinely chaotic you know it doesn't feel staged doesn't feel choreographed doesn't feel structured you know you feel that sort of yeah that sort of chaos of the scene and it is it's like you know it's highly highly highly choreographed but it's it's it's I just you know and it's very
• 47:11
  hard to do that right because there's like blood all over the set the producers don't want too much blood because then the blood is going to get tracked into the
• 47:17
  nice house that you're shooting and you know they're like let's use blood bats and you're like no because if you use blood mats like they're not going to you're not going
• 47:24
  to watch the actors get covered in blood that's like wait let's satisfy you know and these are all the kinds of like you know it's it's the things that actually make
• 47:33
  this challenging to do yeah you mentioned something early Ron about how we talk about Scorsese in key comedy and about that sort
• 47:42
  of self-loving quality there comes from making a movie that you actually in some ways the filmmaker doesn't want to make which is interesting because with Scorsese
• 47:49
  you can see that in death I definitely you know of key comedy and also we've kind of raging bull and like wolf or wall street like you didn't want to make those movies and I guess
• 47:56
  and he's taught I've heard and talked before about that kind of self-loving quality of like having to make a film that he will at least
• 48:01
  wasn't initially sure about making he wanted to make I mean what what is that sort of feeling mean for you that sort of self-loving quality
• 48:08
  because it sounds like something that is kind of you thought about when it comes to your own filmmaking is that true
• 48:13
  well this is the first movie I really didn't want to make and unlike didn't want to make initially and then eventually
• 48:19
  you know yes there's like I fell in love with the movie on some level but on another level like I
• 48:24
  I didn't want to make the movie when it came I didn't want to make the movie when I finished the script I didn't want to like
• 48:28
  if there's like no part of this where I was like yes I can't wait to make this faces of death remake this is
• 48:35
  thrilling to me you know it was thrilling to try to find a way to make it in a way that I liked
• 48:43
  but it wasn't necessarily a movie that like I was I was 100% excited about and at the same time
• 48:53
  I have a my thesis advisor was this guy named um Philippe Grandreux who is an amazing French filmmaker
• 49:02
  and the first time I met him he kind of gave me these like three rules of filmmaking he has for himself
• 49:08
  which is that you you you have to live inside your movie and you begin your film your virgin you know nothing
• 49:14
  and that making the movie is not a straight line it's a it's a wave and I think with this film it's no different
• 49:21
  in the sense that like you have to live inside the movie whether you want to make the movie or not the movie ends up reflecting
• 49:30
  your experience of making it not just your experience but everyone's experience making it kind of definitionally and it reflects that that's
• 49:37
  literally why we take a camera out and do stuff you are reflecting the experience of the crew and the cast and the director and the editor
• 49:46
  and for me my thing with this film was like I find the decision to make a base of death movie weird
• 49:53
  I find aspects of how the studio is approaching making the movie like unnecessarily challenging and and frustrating
• 50:01
  and like very reflective of kind of our contemporary corporate culture or contemporary media corporate culture
• 50:06
  but like I want to have a great time telling this story with this crew with this cast
• 50:12
  I want to kind of go out have fun find a way to make something that is super exciting and entertaining and and fun to watch
• 50:20
  and and that hopefully ultimately you can look at and be like well yes this movie shouldn't exist
• 50:26
  but these filmmakers went out and had a great time doing it and ultimately what I can take from it
• 50:31
  is like a little bit of a of like if there's something that scars me if there's something that sears me as a viewer
• 50:37
  it's like our corporate media culture is like literally killing us it is killing our culture is killing like our artists
• 50:46
  it is killing our ability to tell stories not just in film but on social media in print whatever you know
• 50:55
  you know it the attention economy will like be the death of global culture
• 51:01
  if we don't have culture if we are don't have the ability to tell stories like sure yes we've devolved into technopashism
• 51:07
  but also like are we even human and what does that mean for like our ability to connect to each other
• 51:12
  the alienation that we feel from each other when like the content that we consume is essentially something
• 51:18
  that like a robot delivered to us to try to addict us to our phone more so we can buy more it like
• 51:24
  get from TikTok right
• 51:27
  if there's one regret I actually have about phases it's that I wish there was a little bit more advertising in the movie
• 51:32
  you know in the content I think that would have that's there's not only there's not that much scrolling
• 51:39
  there's like almost this way that the movie kind of like assumes that you understand like
• 51:43
  how the attention economy and social media platforms make their money
• 51:46
  but I wonder if the movies rhetoric would be sharper if there was a little bit more of a sense of kind of like
• 51:54
  the nature of advertising and its intersection with with content consumption
• 52:02
  but ultimately I think that like that's the way in which I hope that the self-loathing quality of the film
• 52:10
  is very literally reflected in the material of the movie
• 52:15
  and ultimately you know what I hope an audience can take away from the experience
• 52:22
  which is this kind of despairing sense that like culture and authenticity and human connection
• 52:30
  is being systematically stripped away from us by corporations
• 52:35
  I tell you what like the more and more you know obviously I think about the film and the more I hear you talk about it
• 52:40
  Daniel it seems to me more and more like the movies are total you know it's a Trojan horse
• 52:44
  you know you managed to get this movie made you know this it's right you know it's this really spiky statement
• 52:49
  but wrapped up in this quite a display sort of good looking glossy 35 millimeter studio film
• 52:53
  I mean it's you know it is a bit of a Trojan horse the more I think about it
• 52:56
  it I'd almost say it's less of a Trojan horse than like there's there's like an arrow berth
• 53:03
  arrow berth cn quality to it this like snake eating its own tail it's like it's like
• 53:10
  I realize that there's probably more funny games in this movie than I thought of in terms of
• 53:15
  but it is where like funny games is a movie that's kind of more holding a mirror up to the audience
• 53:21
  and being like oh you like violence I'll give you violence to me I think this is
• 53:28
  much more holding a mirror up to like like studios and to the means of production of this movie
• 53:35
  you know and kind of like because it's it's very explicitly like you know
• 53:40
  obviously like the movie kind of states its idea in the end but not in a dissimilar way to how funny games states its ideas
• 53:46
  like you have a killer that like Arthur on some weird level seems to know that he's in a movie
• 53:51
  you know he seems to be aware of the fact that like he is the slasher of a film
• 53:57
  whether or not that's like as a character he's kind of like experiencing life through the lines of cinema
• 54:03
  or if it's because you know he there's like a more meta quality to it where like he is like quite
• 54:10
  literally a manifestation of like myself and my own kind of like angry feelings while making the movie
• 54:18
  it's probably a bit of both but he's literally saying like you know everybody is making money off the fact that I exist
• 54:26
  and that's true you know meta sold ad space on the Charlie Perk assassination
• 54:33
  I know it's insane I mean and what does that mean and what is the intersection
• 54:41
  between meta selling ad space on the Charlie Kirk assassination and screen eight going into production
• 54:47
  that's the same impulse it's the same there's no difference between the Super Mario Galaxy movie
• 54:55
  and I'm thinking of it other snuffy thing but yeah
• 55:02
  well it's yeah it's incestuous absolutely yeah incestuous
• 55:05
  but you can say there's no difference between the Super Mario Galaxy movie and like Luigi Menjioni's rise to viral in for me
• 55:12
  like these are also the same
• 55:14
  it's funny that you mentioned funny games because I actually was thinking about funny games with relation to Arthur
• 55:18
  like that character lights for it's a funny game and also like Michael Powell's peeping Tom
• 55:22
  was actually the thing I also had in the back of my mind that sort of you know all this filming
• 55:26
  it isn't healthy that whole sort of mantra is in that movie to me totally resonated with face of death
• 55:31
  I mean was that a movie that you guys looked at as well as the others
• 55:35
  absolutely love peeping Tom love it love it
• 55:38
  and like I wish you know there's only so much peeping Tom in it in part because you know
• 55:44
  one of the ironies of peeping Tom is it's like all this filming isn't healthy and yet
• 55:48
  like that's that's become like a mainstay of our culture
• 55:52
  and in a way kind of you know you're mentioning to Palmer as well earlier like that kind of voyeuristic
• 55:56
  you know peep Tom kind of like the like the original Stein point in many ways for voyeuristic horror
• 56:01
  to then like still be so relevant today is absolutely it's kind of disturbing
• 56:07
  so you mentioned earlier like some of the other projects that you've been working on next
• 56:11
  I mean like what can we expect from you coming out next
• 56:13
  I mean you say that you're you're going to be pushing that kind of political for making a bit further
• 56:17
  or you're going to be going in a little bit
• 56:20
  I've got one more explicitly political movie on the way
• 56:23
  I've got a movie that is like it out in the ether a little bit
• 56:28
  that's set inside of a giant nightclub
• 56:31
  that I've been working on for nearly 12 years
• 56:36
  and hopefully fewer more before it's done
• 56:41
  and yeah then a couple of other things that I'm developing
• 56:47
  hopefully a TV show that I've been working on with Jordan Scholl
• 56:51
  who I wrote Pipeline with and wrote this club movie with
• 56:55
  and yeah he's working on a show that's about a true story out of his life that I think is great
• 57:02
  so nice and you're a filmmaker who is like always works in genre you know
• 57:08
  stuff like Cam and then with this and Pipeline as well you know
• 57:11
  that's just like such a brilliant white knuckle friller
• 57:13
  I mean what is it about genre that sort of galvanizes you so much
• 57:16
  I mean are there any genres that you'd like to work in as well
• 57:19
  that maybe you haven't worked in before
• 57:21
  I'd like to do more in action
• 57:23
  more in just kind of like you know like I think speed racer is one of the all-time great movies
• 57:28
  what a film
• 57:29
  what a film
• 57:30
  love it
• 57:31
  yeah but I like fast films you know
• 57:35
  and it's like it's what makes horror actually not maybe the greatest fit of a genre for me
• 57:41
  and I think you can like feel how much I wish that this was just an action movie
• 57:45
  and that's ultimately what I love about films and movies that just like you know
• 57:52
  you zip through and you leave the theater and you feel like just like
• 57:56
  you just like literally we're running 500 miles an hour
• 58:00
  you know so I want to do more stuff that has that kind of like sense of kineticism
• 58:05
  when was the last time you watch the film and you had that feeling of like
• 58:08
  running for a marathon you know five hours an hour
• 58:11
  speed racer
• 58:12
  I just saw the 4k restoration in Chicago
• 58:16
  and yeah really loved it
• 58:18
  nice that's a film that doesn't I don't think I mean I think these days it's getting a bit more
• 58:22
  credit but I feel like it's certainly the time he got no credit at all
• 58:25
  not not what it deserved
• 58:26
  yeah it's it's a good I think I it's like a movie from the future
• 58:30
  and it still is like there's shots in that film that like we still don't have names for
• 58:35
  really it's really it's a really really special piece of work
• 58:39
  totally I remember I was a university I was the president of the film society
• 58:43
  and I programmed a screening as a speed racer purely because I just wanted to see on a big screen
• 58:47
  and it was it was amazing I mean it's for a film that is relies so much on
• 58:51
  obviously green screen and CGI the fact that it's held up in that is those areas
• 58:55
  as long as all the others so well after nearly 20 years is still pretty amazing to me
• 59:00
  I totally agree
• 59:01
  and it's anyone because you've worked with so many fantastic people over the
• 59:04
  free movies that you've made I mean like is there any is anyone out there
• 59:07
  who you don't you who love to work with if you got the chance any actors
• 59:10
  maybe writers producers composers
• 59:13
  so many so many that's a that's a very hard question
• 59:17
  I mean I think for me weirdly it's like the movie is the most important thing at the end of the day
• 59:25
  and it ends up really being about like what is the film need
• 59:30
  and and if there's like a collaboration that would start with an actor or something like great
• 59:35
  but but ultimately there's there's not like one person who necessarily like
• 59:40
  comes to mind is a is a bucket list off the top of my head
• 59:47
  except I guess maybe there was Showskies for you know
• 59:51
  I mean I'm luckily friendly with both of them and they're they're amazing
• 59:56
  and Lily was a big pipeline fan and I got to see her
• 1:00:00
  into this speed racer screen yeah yeah no I love them I love their work
• 1:00:07
  oh that's fantastic brilliant Daniel well thanks so much for coming on the
• 1:00:11
  part I think that's quite a nice day to end on I mean the film is a ton of fun
• 1:00:14
  you know I can't wait to see you know the reaction it gets over here when I
• 1:00:17
  guess when it opens properly and as a fan you know this is a real pleasure
• 1:00:20
  just to hear you talk about your process and talk about the movies you've
• 1:00:23
  made so thank you so much for coming on the podcast this was great
• 1:00:25
  thank you so much for having me
• 1:00:37
  hey everyone thanks so much for listening to my chat with Daniel Goldhaber
• 1:00:41
  remember to like and subscribe to the podcast see you never miss an
• 1:00:44
  episode and stay tuned for more exciting interviews and guests coming
• 1:00:48
  soon on half the picture
• 1:01:07
  you