Latest / The Data Shaman Podcast - Quant Mind, Shaman Soul / In Conversation with Nalin Pathiranage

Transcript

In Conversation with Nalin Pathiranage · The Data Shaman Podcast - Quant Mind, Shaman Soul

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you need more likes?
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you think about it, we are trained to look for more likes.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: I used to chase likes too.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: If you have seen my LinkedIn page, I used to write a lot back in the day and then I stopped because I was not getting any likes at all.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, nobody likes what I write.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: So why should I keep doing this?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, once a random person walks down to me and then he asks me, I follow you on LinkedIn.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: I really like what you write.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I have never noticed this person, he never likes, never comments.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: So then I realized it is not about whether people are engaging with your content or not.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: You are actually reaching out to people and you are making an impression.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it is about your objective.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't know that, you will end up in places that you are going to aid.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Daniel Efoni, and this is The Stage and the CEO.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: The show where we explore leadership, growth, and the questions that shape how we show up in the world.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Stage and the CEO podcast.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Stage and the CEO podcast.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: And today I have with me Nalin.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, hi Daniel.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me first of all.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: No problem.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start with a very simple question.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me a bit about yourself?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, personally, I go as a growth marketer, or you can call me a growth hacker.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm originally from Sri Lanka, living in Hong Kong for seven years now.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: I have from uh startups to Fortune 500 doing uh growth marketing for different kinds of setup.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: I was with HSPC recently.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I resigned about one and a half months ago, and now I'm working for a crypto company.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now this is this is the background, and also I have formal education in marketing to master's degrees, and I'm very passionate about human psychology.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: I have uh a question that actually is very close to my heart because I am a lot on social media.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: I call myself a micro influencer in that space, and uh I wanted to ask you like our days in 2026, what's the best way to get attention, to get likes?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I would ask you a question back, like why do you need likes?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you think about it, we are trained to look for more likes, like even one like might be enough based on the objective you have.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: So so I would ask you that question back, why do you need more likes?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very interesting question.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: I guess we are trained to please people.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned about psychology.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: We are trained to we want to have as much as big an audience as we can, we are trained to please as many people as we want, and the like is a very simple, quantifiable way of getting that.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: But also I appreciate your point of view.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Suppose uh you want to sell a product and two people like it, and one of those two people buys it, that's a good return.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it is about your objective, that is that is what I have learned because I used to chase likes too.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: If you have seen my LinkedIn page, I used to write a lot back in the day, and then I stopped because I was not getting any likes at all, and then I'm like, nobody likes what I write, so why should I keep doing this?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: So then something changed because at a bar once a random person walks down to me and then he asked me, You're Nalin, right?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: You work for HSPC.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, ah yes, how do you know me?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: I follow you on LinkedIn, I really like what you write.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I have never noticed this person, he never likes, never comments, but he has noticed what I like and he recognized my face and then he started the conversation with me.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: So then I realized it is not about whether people are engaging with your content or not, you are actually reaching out to people and you are making an impression.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So for me at that point, this is like the story of some five years back at that point.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: For me, why I started writing was to put my ideas back out there and start building a network around.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I realized even though the actual metric I was tracking was comments and like, I haven't done the networking part.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: So people started recognizing me, people knew me from my writing.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I started writing again later.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: But see, it is about what exactly you are trying to achieve in social media, and when you have a clear idea, it is going to be very uh straightforward.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: When you look at uh your personal brand now, what's your strategy then?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: How do you put yourself out there?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very interesting question.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because over the last eight years or so, my profile was tagged alone with HSPC.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is the guy who works for HSPC for a big brand, big bank in Hong Kong, especially.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: The network I made was always tagged with HSBC, not in from HSBC.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to shake it down to start with.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was then thinking about what I'm passionate about outside of this the work I do for HSPC.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: So a few months back, I started figuring it out.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I spoke to a few mentors I have formal mentors, informal mentors, and then I was trying to gather information about myself.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: How do people see me as a person outside of what I do for a living?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's one thing I realized they all see me as this person who try to understand why behind everything, who digs deep into things.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Even mentors I had outside of HSBC, they all told me whenever they talked to me, they realize this part about me.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: He wants to know why things are happening.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I have this thing for human psychology.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have this love for human psychology which I did not even discover myself.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: After I started gathering information from others, the people who are close to me, my personal board of directors, and the network around them.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: I realized okay, this is who I am, and how do I shake off the corporate tag I have along with me?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is I start talking about what I'm passionate about without even me knowing.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I started taking that out.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I started a medium blog, I started writing there, and even when I do some guest lecturing in some of the universities, I try to bring those to it.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I always talk about growth marketing, growth tracking, and I started merging the human psychology part of it into whatever I bring to the bring to the market.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So this has been my process.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's fascinating because one thing that you mentioned, uh like I will uh translate it a little bit in a in a coaching language, which is uh self-awareness, being aware of who you are, what your blind spots are, but also what you're good at.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh you mentioned your relationship with mentors, and that is something that lots and lots of young people come to me and ask me, like, would you like to be my mentor?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or how can I get a mentor?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess in your own experience, how did you find these mentors?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: How do you approach a person to become your mentors?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And who is a good mentor for somebody else?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love this question.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: The reason is even I haven't figured out this concept of mentoring until like three, four years ago.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And once I figured it out, I realized I have had so many mentors along my uh career.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been working for 17 years now.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: So my very first boss himself was one of the biggest mentors I had.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: I never gave him the tag of mentor, never called him a mentor.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: When I think about it, why I would call him a mentor now because he is the one who got me into marketing.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: He saw it in me.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: We were in uh like interacting always.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So he used to take a step back from the role of my being my boss who asked me to execute things, I was in an IT job, uh, a data job at the beginning.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: While doing that, he started seeing who I am as a person and what I'm passionate about.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: He told me you are really good at what you do, and also you are really good at thinking of customers.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So my role was way uh like away from the customer.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I used to connect dots, whatever I do to the customer.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Then he told me if you learn marketing, if you get into marketing, this is going to help you in the future.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: I took his word for it, started learning marketing, and where I am now.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I've made a good career for myself using that advice only.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that is just one example.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Then along the way, I had so many such people who took a step back from what they see in me, what they get out of me.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: They take a step out from that and see who I am as a person and try to not to push me, but at least give me ideas.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you try this?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Did you try solving it this way?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, and also I'm a person, I'm an introvert, so I don't open up to people that easily, but whenever I start trusting people, I'll tell them my problem.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And also, once I am I'm comfortable, I'm very open, very straight, which actually helped me build some deep connections.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, this is a good thing about being an introvert, too.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: The connections you build is very deep, I usually.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, likewise, so when I I have one more example.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, when I first joined uh HSBC back in 2018, back in Sri Lanka, one of my colleagues, he was a senior, he was with the band for a few uh years.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: I joined, and then being an introvert, I was not speaking at any of these meetings.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, after third or fourth meeting, after one of the meetings were done, it drags me into another meeting room right after that, basically holding my hand.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Come, I want to talk to you about something.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: The passionate guy he tells me you cannot do this, you need to speak up.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: This is a company that values speaking up.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: If you are to survive here, if you are to make an impact in this company, in this role, you need to speak up.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: So then I didn't take it at that point again.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: I had no no idea of the concept of being a being a mentor.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: I took his word for it because he has been there, he's done it, yeah, he got promoted and all that, right?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: So being a being a very aspirational person, I was like, okay, if he's telling me this is what I need to do, he knows what he's talking about.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: So let me take his word for it.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I started changing myself the the way I usually work, I change it altogether.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Then years later, I attended one of the coaching sessions arranged outside of my work, and then I came to the realization of what is mentor.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I did immediately, I'm also part of the Chartered Institute of Marketing, Hong Kong Chapter.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: I used to be the vice chair for them.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I told some of the students I know through the network that I am available to mentor if anyone needs mentoring.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: That way I got few students I could mentor, and then I expanded that into some of my colleagues themselves.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Some are from HSPC itself at that time, but some are from outside.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: I still do it.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to an opportunity in my new company to do it.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I enjoy it so much because I am who I am now because of these mentors who did not push me that I do this.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, they all told me why don't you try this?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you try this?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: I see you like this.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: So they were just giving me ideas and like showing me different paths in a very subtle way, which helped me so much in my career.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to give it back.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is my story and how I see mentoring.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: What the take from that is that often we like to put labels on things.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: The person is my mentor, the person is my coach, the person is my friend.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, in life, sometimes people just, as you said, as an introvert, you know, to just build deep connections with people and then you help each other.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you might be a mentor to them, sometimes they might be a mentor to you.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess from what you're saying is that the starting point is always a curiosity about yourself and a need to try to improve, isn't it?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, so you need to know who you are to do get anything done.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because then what happens if you don't know that, you will end up in places that you are going to hate.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I have done that.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: So this this all comes from the experience, right?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: As humans, we just chase the shiny new object, like we all like to go for it, and then what happens, you burn your hands most of the time, and then you learn from it, and this all comes with it.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the best thing about having a mentor also is they have gone through that process.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: So when you tell them that, oh, I want to do this, I want to do that, most of the time they will not tell you not to do it, but all they will share their experience, then you will take a step back most of the time.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now I do that.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: So back in the day, I was like, is he discouraging me from doing it?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: So but now I understand the the whole point of it.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Low, even recently, there was one one of the uh university students who came to me and then was telling me her she had two options to join for her internship.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: She wanted to go for the the fancy big company, and then uh I did not discourage her for it, like two good options, and then what I did, I sat down with her and then let her realize what she would get out of it and what she's expecting out of it to get an understanding whether she can understand what works well for her.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I taught her how to think about it.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, especially about big big brands, whenever you see an opportunity with a big brand, you're like, Yes, I want to do that.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's not the best case for you.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: You will only know through your experience, there's no other way.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And what I think what I take from what you're saying is also that you talked about knowing yourself, and sometimes it takes trials and errors to get to know yourself, and then who you are changes over time as well.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: I like the idea of a mentor that they can give you their own experience, their own perspective.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Then you can decide to follow the same steps, you can decide to see it as a different way of looking at things.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And there is no right or wrong as usual in life.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Having objectives that is very important, I think.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Having objectives and knowing your values, what matters to me and where do I want to be?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: So these two are things that I keep asking myself every now and then.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Changes, you will never have the same objective over time.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it might change in a month or two, and also what matters to you?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Does it matter?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is it money?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, money is important.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Do you also value being respected?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do you also value being able to help the community?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever that works for you, right?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Once you know that, that is about yourself, it is not about others.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: So once you know that, it is easier for you to take decisions.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's so fascinating because what you just are describing is uh a work that I always do with my coaches at a certain point in the relationship where we sit down and we rank a series of values.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is it financial stability?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is it achievement?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is it recognition?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is it freedom?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone has got their own uh priority at the point in life of what they want to achieve.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea, I guess, is that if you take decisions aligned to those values and priorities, you will be fulfilled.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't, you will have a problem.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Let me ask you a question because of course it's very fascinating that you're moving now from the standard financial services company to a crypto.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: What brought the change?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, with my previous role, I started feeling like I'm getting stuck.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then the my values and the work I was doing was also not very matching.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I was thinking for a long time, like what should be my next move?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to keep doing this or do I want to do something totally different?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was like a constant battle within myself, try to figure it out.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: There was a time that I hated going to work in the morning.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was never like that.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: This was the sign for me.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm a guy who wakes up at 5 a.m.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: and gets ready to go to work at 8.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: So being that person to start, am I going to do this again today too?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Was a like a moment that I I started thinking, okay, something is wrong.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not enjoying this, this has to change.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then I started thinking of my options.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: I spoke to my mentors again, mentors, and fans, network.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the times, everyone offered me options in banking industry, the same kind of things I do.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Then knowing that I'm not enjoying it anymore, I wanted to do something totally different.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I did, I started applying for jobs.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: I started telling people that I'm looking for a job, and specifically, I told everyone I want to do something away from uh banking.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: I would say I ended up in a crypto still, like this is the future of banking, so I have not totally left it too.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think I can totally shake it off too.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: But as founder of a crypto company, we call them like one of the OGs in crypto, and then I ended up uh working for them.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm keeping it a secret still, the big announcement is coming, uh coming soon.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I enjoy it so much here.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: The main reason is I am learning a lot, especially the new generation.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone, like the more I dig into data, the more fascinated I am.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I I know banking, I thought I know how people manage their money, but now I realize I don't I didn't know anything.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's a total different world outside of what you see every day.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: So unless you step out, you will not see that part.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I feel that banking we live a bit in a I don't want to call it it's a bit of a bubble, it's a bit of a we are a bit isolated from the rest of the world.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: On the one end because we work very long hours, and on the other end, uh simply because uh we are so our network, as you talk about it, expanded the network.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Our network tends to be people in banking.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's difficult, it's an echo chamber often than working.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, I networked just one more point.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: I networked outside of banking also in two different ways.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, the Chartered Institute of Marketing.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was part of it where I got exposure to the education industry most of the times and then a few other industries.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And also I volunteered to become one of the co-chairs for the Canadian Chamber of Commerce Marketing Committee, which is also helped me a lot.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And through these kind of networks, I only had this outside exposure.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, everyone I know is from the hacking country.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, as a last question, because here we talk about coaching and senior executive.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you had to mentor or to advise a CEO about digital marketing, but he doesn't know a lot about it, how would you go about it?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: So digital marketing, not only digital marketing, marketing itself.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I used to mentor a few founders, not like full-blown CEOs of big companies, no, some founders.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Some are my friends, some I got connected through my friends.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: One thing I realize they try to solve a problem and then they get stuck at that view only.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: What I mean by that is they need to think that every dollar they earn is because of human psychology.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's a human behind everything that happens around us, be it a person, be it your actual development work, your staff, everything, that's a human.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: So once you understand that part, once you understand the psychology of different things, it becomes very easy.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: That is applicable to digital marketing too.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, your purpose is to get more new customers through digital marketing.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: That means you need to build trust within your target audience.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: The first part is your objective, you need to know who exactly, like what exactly you are expecting out of this.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: You want to get these kind of customers.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, once you figure that part out, you need to go all the way and figure out what do they want, what could make them hand you their money.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you start from there and then you reverse engineer.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, this is my process of doing any digital marketing campus, and and I like to keep it growth marketing oriented, thinking about the funnel and using data as much as you can, and then hitting them psychological nudges.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Again, if I'm to take an example, let's say it's a coaching business.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, if you are a CEO of a coaching business, I would say you need to understand who are your ideal customers, who would find what you are selling most appealing, most interesting.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: You start from there, and then you try to understand what actually makes them attracted towards your product, and then you try to understand what should make them move, take that decision.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Once you understand that, then you decide okay what kind of campaigns you want to run, what kind of pricing you need to have, and then what kind of user experience you want to give them, the whole removing the fictions part, and then you decide what kind of content would attract them.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you start from there and then you reverse engineer.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of you try to say, Okay, I have this product, I have coaching business, let me go out and talk about my coaching business.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Which most of the times you are gonna exhaust yourself, you are gonna exhaust your resources, you are going to leave everything and crying in the corner because you took a wrong approach.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Which goes back to what you were mentioning at the beginning about the likes.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about the amount, it's about whom you get the likes from, who is following you, who is interested in you, and if you're getting the right uh segment of the population, and then as you said, if you are able to spark that, let's say, psychological need for your services, then you are done.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: You basically succeed.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: So when I started my medium blog, I read an article, I forgot who wrote it.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Some well-known blogging guy.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: What he says is uh you write to everyone, you attract no one, you write to one person, you keep one person in mind and write it, you will attract many.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Know exactly who you want to target, and then if you write thinking of that person, if you create content around thinking of that person, you are going to attract many of similar people.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very important advice, actually.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh Nalin, thank you very much for your time.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a wonderful conversation, and uh looking forward to meeting you in.