Latest / Career Pivot 123 LLC presents: Attend the Tale: Where Career Change Becomes the Best Plot Twist! / Attend the Tale, Episode 2: Jennifer Kelly Campbell

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Attend the Tale, Episode 2: Jennifer Kelly Campbell · Career Pivot 123 LLC presents: Attend the Tale: Where Career Change Becomes the Best Plot Twist!

• Darren Petronella: Every career has a story. Some are carefully planned, some take unexpected turns, and some blow up entirely, only to rebuild into something better than anyone imagined. This is Attend the Tale, where career change becomes the best plot twist, the podcast where real people share the unfiltered story of their career pivots, the moments that changed everything, and the lessons that only come from listen living through it. Listen closely, the tale is about to begin. I'm your host, Darren Petronella, a career counselor, coach, resume, and LinkedIn strategist, university professor, and the founder of Career Pivot 123 LLC. For 20 years I've sat across from people at every stage of their careers, people who felt stuck, burnt out, overlooked, or simply ready for something more. And in every one of those conversations, there was a story, a real human story about who they were, who they wanted to become, and what it took to get there. That's why I created the This podcast because those stories deserve to be heard. Not just by me, but by anyone out there standing at their own crossroads, wondering if a pivot is possible. Spoiler alert, it is. And today's guest is absolutely proof of that. My guest today is my very dear friend and colleague, Jennifer Kelly Campbell. As a child, Jennifer knew she wanted to be a writer and storyteller. She wrote stories, comedy skits, and essays, and won some awards in middle and high school. For reasons. That she will discuss today, she earned a bachelor's and master's degree in disciplines that were far less aligned with her true North. She became a career counselor to help others who received poor career planning advice from family members or educators. She's helped thousands of people achieve their dreams. She's had a successful career in nonprofit and higher education administration, as well as philanthropy. Jennifer attended writing workshops and storytelling classes in her spare time. She saved money and retired as soon as she could. could to return to her dream of writing and storytelling full time. Jen, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. Well thanks for having me, Darren. This is really Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Thanks for having me, Darren. This is really fun and interesting. I love it. Darren Petronella: Fun and interesting. I love it. And we're so excited to hear your stories. I've heard some of them, obviously. my goodness. but you're gonna you're Jennifer Kelly Campbell: my goodness. Yeah. Darren Petronella: gonna regale all of us in out there in podcast land. So all right, so my first question is actually a little bit off script. You had mentioned and and as I read in the in the in the blurb that you sent me that you you always knew that you wanted to be a writer and a storyteller. So how at what age do you remember? when that first came into your head? Three. I used to pick up pens and and paper and take things that my parents had written. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Three. I used to pick up pens and and paper and take things that my parents had written and try to copy their cursive handwriting. And I just loved the way the pen felt over the paper. I love the way the pen felt in my hand. Of course I wasn't allowed to have pens at three, so this was all clandestine behavior. Darren Petronella: And try to copy their cursive handwriting. And I just loved the way the pen felt over the paper. I love the way the pen felt in my hand. Of course, I wasn't allowed to have pens at three, so this was all clandestine behavior. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: But it was just such a soothing activity and fun. And I would say to them, look, I made letters. And it Darren Petronella: but it was just such a soothing activity and fun, and I would say to them, look, I made letters and Jennifer Kelly Campbell: even before I didn't even know the alphabet back then. But I just have always enjoyed, even to this day, my stories, everything I write, I do by hand. And I have special pens that I love to use. Like this is my latest. Darren Petronella: It even before I didn't even know the alphabet back then. But I just have always enjoyed even to this day my stories, everything I write, I do by hand. And I have special pens that I love to use. Like this is my latest. Nice. From Leavenger. Yeah. I have a couple of Jennifer Kelly Campbell: From Leavenger, yeah. I have a couple of Waterman pens, fancy pens, and I ha and I I always get like beautiful fun notebooks to write in. But I just love the art of writing, the feeling of it. It's very soothing to me and always has been. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Very tactile. Darren Petronella: Waterman pens. Hmm. Very nice. Fancy. And I ha and I I always get like beautiful fun notebooks to write in. Right. But I just love the art of writing, the feeling of it. It's very soothing to me. That's great. So it's always it's very therapeutic then from what you're saying, right? Just the idea and also the pens and like how how nice that feels in your very tactile. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So so as you were getting older from that early memory, it it just kinda kept being a presence for you. The idea of writing, Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Mm-hmm. Darren Petronella: the idea of using again the cursive or or just learning your you're writing things out. And what can you remember the first story you ever wrote? Or an early story. I'm sorry, I'm putting it on the spot. I can't. I can't. I would make stories up all the time. I would like make up skits and things like I I remember in fifth and sixth grade I started doing writing and doing s comedy skits. Right. And one was and they were all like Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I can't. I can't. I would make stories up all the time. I would like make up skits and things like I remember in fifth and sixth grade I started doing writing and doing s comedy skits and one was and they were all like Misunderstandings. You know, they were all about misunderstandings. Like in one, a someone brought a sick person to a butcher instead of the doctor. And in the other one, it's someone had a leaky faucet that was keeping them awake all night. Darren Petronella: Misunderstandings. You know, they were all about misunderstandings. Like in one a someone brought a sick person to a butcher instead of the doctor. And in the other one, it's someone had a leaky faucet that was keeping them awake all night. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: and those kinds of things and they're very physical comedy. I was a really busy kid, I had a lot of energy, and Darren Petronella: And those kinds of things. And they're very physical comedy. Right. I was a really busy kid. I had a lot of energy. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: so the the physical movement was fun for me. And then making people laugh was was fun for me. but Darren Petronella: And so the the physical movement was fun for me. I'm sure. And then making people laugh was was fun for me. and I'm saying that I'm yeah. I'm saying this as an aside. No knowing you and knowing the stor some of the stories you've told, as I said to my wife and friends, you could have absolutely been on the comedy circuit Jennifer Kelly Campbell: jeez. Darren Petronella: You know, just you're tour you're kinda like Leanne Morgan in that way. I don't know if you ever watch her. she she talks Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I love her. Darren Petronella: she talks about About all her stories from her family and things like that. And of course, she's got that Southern thing going. But you have something very both sophisticated but also very, very relatable about you. That that every time you tell a story, people are like like leaning in. Like they're ready to like they just want because they know that it's going to be entertaining and unexpected and but and also humorous. So but so I can imagine that this Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Thank you. Darren Petronella: I yeah, I absolutely. And I I can imagine that that was because that was so satisfying for you, and so reinforcing for you. I'm I was I'm assuming that because you were doing these things that some of it was maybe for attention or for just you know whatever Jennifer Kelly Campbell: yeah. Darren Petronella: it is right? I mean that's what we do as kids. We'll do anything to get some attention, positive attention. So so let's then fast forward into like high school. now were you were you like interested in your English classes? Did you like to write when you were had to do that? I I presume, right? Yeah you were. So so was that then going to be your college thing? Yes. Okay. So Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Mm-hmm. Yes. So one of one of the big things in my life that created so many stories and my need to really talk and seek attention and be seen and heard was I'm a sibling of someone who has intellectual and developmental disabilities. And so our household was basically in a state of low-level crisis every single day. Darren Petronella: one of one of the big things in my life that created so many stories and my need to really talk and seek attention and be seen and heard was I'm a sibling of someone who has intellectual and developmental disabilities. And so our household was basically in a state of low-level crisis every single day. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: So I gravitated to the stories and the activities to make sense of what was happening. And this is in the battle days in the 60s and the 70s, where there was very little help and support for parents, for my brother, and certainly not for siblings. Nobody really even considered us at all. Darren Petronella: So I gravitated to the stories and the activities to make sense of what was happening. And this is in the battle days in the 60s and the 70s where there was very little help and support for for parents, for my brother, and and certainly not for siblings. Nobody really even considered us at all. Right. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And our our the thought was, you're fine, you'll be fine. You know, compared to your brother, you're fine. Which is a weird way to grow up. And and the house was my best source of material. The things that happened, the way my brother sees the world, the way he executes his behavior based on that viewpoint. it created some very interesting Darren Petronella: And our our the thought was, you're fine, you'll be fine. You know, compared to your brother, you're fine. Which is a weird way to grow up. Yeah. And and the house was my best source of material. The things that happened, the way my brother sees the world, the way he executes his behavior based on that viewpoint. it created some very interesting Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Experiences. so I would say that by the time I got to middle school, high school, I loved English and I was really focused more on those nonfiction kind of stories, those those things that happened at home. Because I was really trying to make sense of Darren Petronella: Experiences. I'm sure. so I would say that by the time I got to middle school, high school, I loved English and I was really focused more on those nonfiction kind of stories, those those things that happened at home. 'Cause I was really trying to make sense of Jennifer Kelly Campbell: what was happening. And I was also trying to normalize my experience because I didn't know anybody else. Darren Petronella: What was happening. And I was also trying to normalize my experience because I didn't know anybody else Jennifer Kelly Campbell: who lived like this. I did not know anybody else whose brother dressed up in superhero costumes all day long. You know, you walk you come home from school, he's Superman. At dinner, he's Spider Man. At bedtime he's Robin. Darren Petronella: who lived like this. I did not know anybody else whose brother dressed up in superhero costumes all day long. you walk, you come home from school, he's Superman. At dinner, he's Spider-Man. At bedtime, he's Robin. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And he had the costumes for everything. So you never knew w who was gonna show up. And it was Darren Petronella: And he had the costumes for everything. So you never knew w who was gonna show up. And it was Jennifer Kelly Campbell: It was interesting and I knew it was really different. And I really struggled to figure out how to manage this. So that's where the storytelling came in. That's where the writing, the soothingness of the writing came in. Darren Petronella: it was interesting and I knew it was really different. And I really struggled to figure out how to manage this. So that's where the storytelling came in, that's where the writing, the soothingness of the writing came in. Right. and I did get very, very good grades in English, perfect grades in any kind of my English classes. And I was able to graduate Jennifer Kelly Campbell: and I did get very, very good grades in English, like perfect grades in any kind of my English classes. And I was able to graduate. High school probably a year early, definitely a semester early, Darren Petronella: high school probably a year early, definitely a semester early. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: but senior year I took college classes, English classes, and I was able to take electives, and so I was able to fill up most of that with writing classes. Darren Petronella: But senior year I took college classes, English classes, and I was able to take electives. And so I was able to fill up most of that with writing classes. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And I I took a creative writing class senior year. And I wrote, I got to write all the time. I joined the the Literary Arts Magazine organization. and I won an award at the end of high school for the Darren Petronella: And I I took a creative writing class senior year. And I wrote, I got to write all the time. I joined the the literary arts magazine organization. and I won an award at the end of high school for the Jennifer Kelly Campbell: creative writing excellence. So my path was I'm gonna study writing and English in college. Darren Petronella: creative writing excellence. So my path was I'm gonna study writing and English in college Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Because that's what I'm good at. That's what I've been seen for. That's what I've been heard when I when I have success. And my parents were brutally disappointed and ashamed of it. Darren Petronella: because that's what I'm good at. Right. That's what I've been seen for. That's what I've been heard when I when I have success. Right. And my parents were brutally disappointed and ashamed of it. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: They didn't give me suggestions for what else they wanted me to do. They didn't say, you're going to be a doctor or an accountant or an engineer. They just didn't like Darren Petronella: They didn't give me suggestions for what else they wanted me to do. They didn't say, you're going to be a doctor or an accountant or an engineer. They just didn't like Jennifer Kelly Campbell: What I was doing. And my father said, we're not sending you to school to be a writer. That's a hobby. That's not that's a not a job. You won't be able to support yourself doing that. Darren Petronella: what I was doing. And my father said, we're not sending you to school to be a writer. That's a hobby. That's not that's a not a job. You won't be able to support yourself doing that. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: which was really upsetting because Darren Petronella: which was really upsetting because Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I during childhood I did a lot of work at home. I gave up a lot of opportunities to join clubs and even to play and build friendships and follow my interests and there was no money for lessons or activities. I just did a lot of work at home. I had a babysitting business 25 hours a week from the time I was 13. So I was work, work, work, work, work, and I just wanted this future that I had planned for myself. Darren Petronella: I during childhood I did a lot of work at home. I gave up a lot of opportunities to join clubs and even to play and build friendships and follow my interests and there was no money for lessons or activities. I just did a lot of work at home. I had a babysitting business 25 hours a week from the time I was 13. So it was work, work, work, work, work, and I just wanted this future that I had planned for myself. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And not only were they disappointed, but then they they were the my biggest obstacles. They forced me to go to Marymount University for some inexplicable reason, which had nothing to do with any of my interest areas. And then two weeks before I left for school, they told me they didn't have any money to pay for it. And then I was trapped. Darren Petronella: And not only were they disappointed, but then they they were the my biggest obstacles. They forced me to go to Marymount University for some inexplicable reason, which had nothing to do with any of my interest areas. And then two weeks before I left for school, they told me they didn't have any money to pay for it. And then I was trapped. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Because you real you have to apply for college in January. You get accepted in April. And you know, in late August, you don't have an opportunity to find another school to go to. So then I was like on a hamster wheel for four years. I have Darren Petronella: Because you real you have to apply for college in January. You get accepted in April. And you know, in late August you don't have an opportunity to find another school to go to. Right. So then I was like on a hamster wheel for four years. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: to pay for this myself. I have to work full-time. I have to go to school full-time. And I managed to major in communications. Darren Petronella: I have to pay for this myself, have to work full-time, I have to go to school full-time. And I managed to major in communications, Jennifer Kelly Campbell: media communications, which was the most relatable major that Merriman had. I tried to transfer but I found out you lose credits and it now you have to pay more money and I just didn't have that. So I just stuck it out for four years. And Darren Petronella: media communications, which was the most relatable major that Merriman had. I tried to transfer, but I found out you lose credits and it now you have to pay more money, and I just didn't have that. So I just stuck it out for four years. And Jennifer Kelly Campbell: it was like the worst four years of my life. Darren Petronella: it was the worst four years of my life. Ugh. The absolutely worst four years of my life. And then I graduated within four years. I you know, I got in and out in that four year period of time. I was exhausted because I had been working, working, working. Right. No fun. Like I didn't get to go away for spring break. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: the absolutely worst four years of my life. And then I graduated within four years. I you know, I got in and out in that four year period of time. I was exhausted because I had been working, working, working, no fun. Like I didn't get to go away for spring break or have fun during the summer. I just worked and worked and worked 'cause I had to pay for all these things. Darren Petronella: Or have fun during the summer. I just worked and worked and worked because I had to pay for all these things. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: So when I graduated, I just wanted to I wanted to be a writer. But now I was four years behind my peers who got to study it, who got to take internships, who got to do conferences and workshops and all those cool things that colleges offer. Darren Petronella: So when I graduated I just wanted I wanted to be a writer. Right. But now I was four years behind my peers who got to study it, who got to take internships, who got to do conferences and workshops and all those cool things that colleges offer. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: no mentors, nothing like that. So then I I went through this period where I was really lost. And Darren Petronella: no mentors. Mm. Nothing like that. So then I I went through this period where I was really lost. Hm. So can I just pause you really quickly? And but but also the fact that your parents played such a dominant role in what your decision what your decision was was to be, general. So I I I'm just saying that it's very it's something that I think a lot of people can relate to in in into all different forms, situation. Not obviously your story is unique, but but the idea of it is very, very common unfortunately with parents and family members taking very active roles in decision making do it. so so you so you graduated with the with the degree in communications, So what did you do? Like what was the what was the career choices? that point so what i did was i i got a job with a a scientific publishing company on long island i didn't want to commute into the city i just Jennifer Kelly Campbell: so what I did was I I got a job with a a scientific publishing company on Long Island. I didn't want to commute into the city. I just hate the Long Island Railroad, always did. so I knew I couldn't swing that. So I worked there for about three years and then I got laid off when they upgraded their technology. Darren Petronella: hate the Long Island Railroad always did. so I knew I couldn't swing that. So I worked there for about three years and then I got laid off when they upgraded their technology. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: they didn't need editors or proofreaders anymore. They could format that into a computer program. And that's what they had launched. So they laid off like half their editorial staff. And it was a great I Darren Petronella: You know, they didn't need editors or proofreaders anymore. They could format that into a computer program. And that's what they had launched. So they laid off like half their editorial staff. And it was a great Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I hated it. I just it was so boring. Not me at all. and then I went to Darren Petronella: I I hated it. I just, it was so boring. Not me at all. and then I went to I had while I was working there, I started a sibling support group with my the agency that my brother receives residential and vocational services from, IGHL. Right. And Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I had while I was working there, I started a sibling support group with my the agency that my brother receives residential and vocational services from, IgHL. And it was it was very fun. I worked with one of the social workers and we had a nice group. And one of the women in Scott's house went to another agency. Darren Petronella: It was it was very fun. I worked with one of the social workers and we had a nice group and one of the women in Scott's house went to another agency Jennifer Kelly Campbell: for her work. And she had a flyer about our group Darren Petronella: for her work. Okay. And she had a flyer about our group. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: because we were willing to invite people from other agencies because there wasn't other anything else. So one of the social workers from AHRC Suffolk, which is now People's Ark of Suffolk, contacted me and said, you know, it's really too far for our folks to drive. They live in mid-Suff. This was in Eastern Suffolk. Darren Petronella: because we were willing to invite people from other agencies because there wasn't other anything else. So one of the social workers from AHRC Suffolk, which is now People's Ark of Suffolk, contacted me and said, you know, it's really too far for our folks to drive. They live in mid-Suff, this was in eastern Suffolk. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Would you start a group here with me? Like, sure. So then I had two groups. Darren Petronella: Would you start a group here with me? Like, sure. So then I had two groups. Wow. And it was great fun. And the social worker from ARC Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And it was great fun. And the social worker from ARC said, you know, you should really work in this field. You're very good with everybody. And you're just innately so nice to our you know, the the folks that are here, our individuals that we serve. Darren Petronella: Said, you should really work in this field. You're very good with everybody, and you're just innately so nice to our the the folks that are here are individuals that we serve. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: So then I got a job in their supported work department, and that started my career services journey. We helped folks who had very mild disabilities find employment in the community, Darren Petronella: So then I got a job in their supported work department, and that started my career services journey. We helped folks who had very mild disabilities find employment in the community and we trained them how to do their jobs, how to travel back and forth to work, how to manage any social difficulties or Jennifer Kelly Campbell: and we trained them how to do their jobs, how to travel back and forth to work, how to manage any social difficulties or emotional difficulties they had with the transition and it was great. And I did several other things with the agency, one of them being employee training and development. So I worked to train the new employees. We also had annual trainings. And then from there I I went to graduate school and I got a master's degree in HR management and labor relations. Darren Petronella: emotional difficulties they had with the transition and it was great and I did several other things with the agency one of them being employee training and development so I worked to train the new employees we also had annual trainings and then from there I I went to graduate school and I got a master's degree in HR management labor relations. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And then Darren Petronella: And then I did postgraduate coursework in career counseling. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I did postgraduate coursework in career counseling. Darren Petronella: So it was interesting to me work with people to help them with their life planning. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: so it was interesting to me work with people to help them with their life planning because I had gotten such bad advice. And I wasn't the only one. I found out that I wasn't the only one who had family members or educators who said, No, you can't do that, that's not good for you. Like who were making decisions about things that are yours to make. You Darren Petronella: Because I had gotten such bad advice. And I wasn't the only one. I found out that I wasn't the only one who had family members or educators who said, No, you can't do that. That's not good for you. Like who were making decisions about things that are yours to make. Right. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: know yourself better than anybody else. Darren Petronella: You know yourself better than anybody else. Exactly. And to believe yourself is the most important thing you can do when you're planning your future. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And to believe yourself is the most important thing you can do when you're planning your future. Darren Petronella: That's that's a great that's a great point. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Mm. Darren Petronella: So since you were now so from for so you like you said that first career counseling role kind type experience and and and then you end up getting extra training as time went on, what was the moment early on in that particular career? Because I know you did that for quite a while. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Mm-hmm. Darren Petronella: what was the moment early on? Where you felt like in your element, or did you ever feel in your element as a career counselor? I loved it there. You loved it. Good. I loved it there because every day we did something that was really important to us to the individuals we served, and it made a big difference in their lives. You know, this is in the early 90s where community integration was a very new thing. People with disabilities had been institutionalized, they've been isolated. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I loved it there. I loved it there because every day we did something that was really important to our to the individuals we served and it made a big difference in their lives. You know, this is in the early 90s where community integration was a very new thing. People with disabilities had been institutionalized, they had been isolated, Darren Petronella: their rights had been violated with both of those two things Jennifer Kelly Campbell: their rights had been violated with both of those two things. And so it was a new day and a new age for folks. And it was really nice to be at the forefront of that. And I loved it. And I loved working with our individuals. They were always Darren Petronella: and so it was a new day and a new age for folks and it was really nice to be at the forefront of that. Right, good. And I loved it. And I loved working with our individuals. They were Always happy to see you. It was like this great work experience. I remember one time we were doing a group and I walked in and they were like, Yay, Jennifer's here. That never Jennifer Kelly Campbell: happy to see you. It's like this great work experience. I remember one time we were doing a group and I walked in and they were like, yay, Jennifer's here. That never happened. Darren Petronella: happens at work for most people. Yeah, that's true. So it was this it was this wonderful experience. And I was there for nine years, and I would have stayed, but after I finished graduate school, there wasn't Jennifer Kelly Campbell: at work for most people. So it was this it was this wonderful experience. And I was there for nine years and I would have stayed, but after I finished graduate school, there wasn't a leadership role that I liked. There were two that I interviewed for and they just I just really didn't like the person who was overseeing those roles to be honest. Darren Petronella: a leadership role that I liked. There were two that I interviewed for and they just I just really didn't like the person who was overseeing those roles to be honest. Yeah. And in graduate school I had I loved that experience. I got scholarships, I got awards, I was on the chairperson's council, and I helped we had to take a cumulative exam as part of our Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And in graduate school, I had I loved that experience. I got scholarships, I got awards, I was on the chairperson's council, and I helped we had to take a cumulative exam as part of our degree program, and I scored very extremely high on the exam, so then I would give workshops for other folks about how to be successful with the exam. Darren Petronella: Degree program, and I scored very extremely high on the exam, so then I would give workshops for other folks about how to be successful with the exam. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: so I became close with the chairperson. So he was part of my network. And he said, you know, we have an opening in our career office here at NYIT. And so I interviewed, got Darren Petronella: so I became close with the chairperson, so he was part of my network. Right. And he said, you know, we have an opening in our career office here at NYIT. Right. And so I interviewed Jennifer Kelly Campbell: the job, and I left ARC very sadly, but I was excited. And in higher education, it was amazing too because the students were so excited to receive. Darren Petronella: Got the job and I left ARC very sadly, but I was excited. And in higher education, it was amazing too because the students were so excited to receive Jennifer Kelly Campbell: support and services for things they needed. And I ran into so many students who were having difficulty with Darren Petronella: support and services for things they needed. And I ran into so many students who were having difficulty with. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: achieving their parents' goals for them. Because a lot of parents said, I want you to be a doctor. I don't want to be a doctor. So many of the students came, you've seen that. So many people came in and said I can't meet their expectations. I don't want to do this. I'm afraid to do this. Darren Petronella: Achieving their parents' goals for them. Because a lot of parents said, I want you to be a doctor. I don't want to be a doctor. So many of the students came. You've seen that. So many people came in and said, I can't meet their expectations. I don't want to do this. I'm afraid to do this. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: What else can I do? And so it was great to help people. I Darren Petronella: Right. What else can I do? And so it was great to help people. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: also wound up with, I guess the universe sent them to me, but I wound up with this students who had crisis going on in their lives. I had so many students whose parents had passed away, which is a huge crisis, obviously, and it derails so much of your. Darren Petronella: I also wound up with, I guess the universe sent them to me, but I wound up with this students who had crisis going on in their lives. I had so many students whose parents had passed away, which is a huge crisis, obviously, and it derails so much of your development. Right. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: development because you're dealing with this huge crisis. so many students who had a a severe in illness or injury that derailed them or their siblings had some sort of difficulty. I even worked with some students who did have siblings with intellectual and developmental dis disabilities and so it was Darren Petronella: Because you're dealing with this huge crisis. Sure. so many students who had a a severe in illness or injury that derailed them, or their siblings had some sort of difficulty. I even worked with some students who did have siblings with intellectual and developmental s dis disabilities. And so it was Jennifer Kelly Campbell: really gratifying to to help them and to to give them some guidance that I would have loved to have had. Darren Petronella: really gratifying to to help them right and to to give them some guidance that I would have loved to have had. Right. And what and what you're sharing also is is the fact that you were whether it was intentional or it just kinda happened and then you kinda made it intentional that you were really carving out your own niche, like your own Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Mm. Darren Petronella: like your own like space for the for these kinds of folks to come in and say, I need help, I'm having this problem, or I have this, you know, this challenge in my life or a and for so many reasons. And you know, and I know this and I know many people know this about you, that you're a very relatable person and you have a lot of empathy and kindness and support and so obviously people felt comfortable with you no question but so obviously that was in a way it was kind of I would have I would I would have I would guess that it felt nice or felt good on your end to be like yeah I'm I'm happy that I'm helping these people right I mean is that is that what you were kind of cut taking away from those experiences and it was also validating to me right that's what I mean it was for most of my life right I felt like an alien like I'm the only person who has this problem. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And it was also validating to me because for most of my life I felt like an alien. Like, I'm the only person who has this problem going Darren Petronella: Going off. Right, right. The only person whose life got so disrupted because of the crisis in our family. Right, right. and it's not true. Exactly. In fact, most people have something. Exactly. Something. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: on. The only person whose life got so disrupted because of the crisis in our family. and it's not true. In fact, most people have something. Something. Darren Petronella: That's exactly right. And you learned, like you said, that it was it was nice to have that, you know, that be kind of validated for you, like you said. So that's great. That's great. So As that was happening and as you were really in your more in your element as as time went on, did did you ever get any did you ever sense any any negativity around you, whether it was from coworkers or or or or other kinds of sources that were starting to in any way cause any stress or challenge for you? Always. There was always some sort of you know, the workplace is Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Always. There was always some the workplace is a tough place to negotiate. And what would happen is I would Darren Petronella: a tough place to negotiate. And what would happen is I would Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Stay in a place for for several years, learn everything I needed to learn or wanted to learn, expand my knowledge and my experiences and my credentials as much as I could. And then Darren Petronella: stay in a place for for several years, learn everything I needed to learn or wanted to learn, expand my knowledge and my experiences and my credentials as much as I could. And then Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I knew it was time to go because the noise around me really started to bother me. It was always there. But Darren Petronella: I knew it was time to go because the noise around me really started to bother me. It was always there. But Jennifer Kelly Campbell: When I was doing other things, it wasn't as loud. And when it was time to go, that noise got louder. And it was like, okay, I need to make a change. I need to go someplace else. I've taken this as far as I can. So Darren Petronella: when I was doing other things, it wasn't as loud. And when it was time to go, that noise got louder. It was like, okay, I need to make a change. I need to go someplace else. I've taken this as far as I can. So I did make several moves. when I Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I did make several moves. when I I did career counseling at two universities. And I was also an adjunct professor, and I also had a teaching load as well. and the biggest move I made was switching from career counseling to alumni relations and development. And Darren Petronella: I did career counseling at two universities and I was also an adjunct professor and I also had a teaching load as well. and the biggest move I made was switching from career counseling to alumni relations and development. Right. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: that was a huge shift, and that was after 15 years of doing career services in higher ed, and then another 10. Darren Petronella: And that was a huge shift. And that was after fifteen years of doing career services in higher ed and then another ten Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And non profit. Darren Petronella: in nonprofit. Right. here. I I'm I just I'm just it's just too much. There was always there was always the Jennifer Kelly Campbell: There was always there was always the that lightning bolt moment where you said, okay, I surrender enough. Yep. It got to that point where you're like, really time to go. This is not serving me well anymore. This is not going Darren Petronella: that lightning bolt moment where you said, Okay. Right. Okay. I surrender. You surrender. Right. Okay. And so it was a build it'd be like a build up but then it kinda got to that point where like, I gotta get out of here. Right. Really time to go. Right. This is not serving me well anymore. This is not going to be a good place for me going forward. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: to be a good place for me going forward. Darren Petronella: Right. There are better opportunities out Jennifer Kelly Campbell: There are better opportunities out there, said Darren Petronella: there. Was there anything that was either scary about that change or you know, something that you were maybe stressed stressed about in that making that change? 'Cause like you said, you were in career services for fifteen years and then you kind of shifted into alumni relations and although they they're all, you know, like in many Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Mm-hmm. Connected. Darren Petronella: cases they're in the same same general umbrella, but they're not Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Yes. Darren Petronella: really because the function is very different. So I'm just curious about Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Very different. Darren Petronella: how that felt for you inside. So one of the things that happened in my life is I got divorced from my first husband. And while I was disconnecting from things and people and life experiences that were not serving me at Jennifer Kelly Campbell: So one of the things that happened in my life is I got divorced from my first husband. And while I was disconnecting from things and people and life experiences that were not serving me at all, Darren Petronella: all. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I took a good hard look about the work I was doing. And I said, Darren Petronella: I took a good hard look about the work I was doing. Okay. And I said, Jennifer Kelly Campbell: You know what, I'm having a hard time myself. It's hard for me to listen to people's problems. cause I have so much mental energy that's being expended because of the stress of the divorce and all of the changes that went a went with that. Darren Petronella: you know what, I'm having a hard time myself. It's hard for me to listen to people's problems. because I have so much mental energy that's being expended because of the stress of the divorce. Sure. And all of the changes that went a went with that. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: So I decided I'm going to move into alumni relations. Darren Petronella: So I decided I'm going to move into alumni relations Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Because it's similar but different. It's collecting people's stories to amplify the success that you can have by attending this university. And this is the network of people that you can have access to. And Darren Petronella: because it's similar but different. It's collecting people's stories to amplify the success that you can have by attending this university. And this is the network of people that you can have access to. And Jennifer Kelly Campbell: these are people who will support the university for the causes that are important to them. Darren Petronella: These are people who will support the university for the causes that are important to them. Right. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And career services was always very important to them because they needed to hire new new staff all the time. So they paid for they donated money for the career fairs and information sessions and Darren Petronella: And career services was always very important to them because they needed to hire new new staff all the time. So they paid for they donated money for the career fairs and information sessions and Jennifer Kelly Campbell: all kinds of programs and services that we had, mentorship, admissions ambassadors, and so forth. So it was a a kind of a seamless transition. Darren Petronella: all kinds of programs and services that we had, mentorship, admissions ambassadors, and so forth. So it was a a s a seamless transition. And it got me away from listening to people's difficulties. So I I got to be to use my mental energy in a different way that wasn't as taxing. And I get paid a lot Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And it got me away from listening to people's difficulties. So I I got to be to use my mental energy in a different way that wasn't as taxing. And I got paid a lot more. Darren Petronella: more. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Which was very helpful because I had just gotten divorced and half my net worth left. So that was extremely stressful. And I don't know that I would recommend that you make all these huge life transitions at the same time. Darren Petronella: Which was very helpful because I had just gotten divorced. Right. And half my net worth left. That's right. So that was extremely stressful. And I don't know that I would recommend that you make all these huge life transitions at the same time. Right. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: But I think in some way the changes distracted me from maybe the anxiety and sadness, like the busyness has always been my happy place. So learning s learning new things has always been my happy place as well. totally new challenge. And it worked. It just worked. And my first Darren Petronella: But I think in some way the changes distracted me from maybe the anxiety and sadness. Like the busyness has always been my happy place. Right. So learning s learning new things has always been my happy place as well. Right. totally new challenge. And it worked. It just worked. Right. And my first Jennifer Kelly Campbell: job in alumni relations, I worked for a horrible person. Darren Petronella: job in alumni relations. I worked for a horrible person. Okay. And so I stayed there. I think he was my boss for about 18 months. and that was really a long time. But I learned a lot. And I learned about this is not how you conduct yourself as a leader. He was a great teacher. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: and so I stayed there. I think he was my boss for about eighteen months. and that was really a long time. But I learned a lot and I learned about this is not how you conduct yourself as a leader. He was a great teacher for that. What not to do. Darren Petronella: for that. Of what not to do. What not to do. Right. And that was a big transition because a lot of the administrators in student affairs were were nicer. this guy was not. Right. He was he was different. And he had some significant Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And that was a big transition because a lot of the administrators and student affairs were were nicer. this guy was not. It was he was different. And he had some significant Problems. Yeah, he was an active alcoholic and he would come to work smelling like alcohol. Yeah, it was bad. It was bad. So I managed to find my next job, which was wonderful because it paid me even more money. I got a 40% raise and I went to work for a president of a university who was a gem. Darren Petronella: Problems. Problems, okay Yeah. He was an active alcoholic. And he would come to work smelling like alcohol. It was bad. It was bad. So I managed to find my next job, which was wonderful because it paid me even more money. I got a 40% raise and I went to work for a president of a university who was a gem. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Incredible professional, incredibly talented, wonderful guy, the perfect leader. You know, he was he was such a nice man. Darren Petronella: Incredible professional, incredibly talented, wonderful guy, the perfect leader. You know, he was he was such a nice man. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And I stayed there for about seven or eight years. And that's when I retired from higher ed. You know, in higher ed, we can dump out kind of early. they have some nice structures with our retirement systems. Darren Petronella: And I stayed there for about seven or eight years. And that's when I retired from higher ed. Okay. You know, in higher ed we can dump out kind of early. Yeah. they have some nice structures with our retirement systems. Right. And Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And so I I was able to leave at fifty nine and take my benef my nice benefits with me and access any funds that I had saved. And they also have great vehicles to save money. So as I went higher up, I just stuffed my bank accounts and my retired accounts with as much money as I possibly could. because the plan was to Darren Petronella: So I I was able to leave at fifty nine. Right. That's great. And take my benef my nice benefits with me and access any funds that I had saved. Right. And they also have great vehicles to save money. Hmm. That's right. So as I went higher up, I just stuffed my bank accounts and my retired accounts with as much money as I possibly could. Right. Right. because the plan was to Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Stop this non writing work and finally get off. Finally get off. Life is too short. Darren Petronella: Stop this right. Stop this weel. Right. Right. Everything non writing. I wanna get back to this. Life's too short. I gotta get back to this as soon as possible. So this is Life is too short. Absolutely. So I wanna go back just a little bit. and there's another chapter that we'll get into, the most recent chapter, before you retired. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Mm-hmm. Darren Petronella: but I wanna go back to while you were making these changes, I mean like you said you were having the divorce and stuff. You the that stuff. But you always I know you've always had friends around you and and and supportive people in your life. Tell me about that. Tell me about like what kind of how are you doing emotionally? I I mean obviously like you said a lot of it some of it was a distraction while doing it, so it was kind of therapeutic But were you ever hearing things from family or friends like, Are you sure you want to do this? Isn't this gonna be a little scary to change this? Or why don't you just stay where you are? Like I'm just curious about how other people were reacting in your world to to these changes. And what how and how did you handle that? Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Yes, a lot of people said, What what are you doing? why? Darren Petronella: Yes, a lot of people said, what what are you doing? why Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Why are you are you crazed? What is going on? to something new in your mid in your late forties. Darren Petronella: why are you are you crazed? What is going on? to start something new in your mid in your late forties. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: when you're really flying without a safety net, it's just you just have one income now. So there were a lot of folks who questioned Darren Petronella: when you're really flying without a safety net, it's just you just have one income now. So there were a lot of folks who questioned Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And I can't remember if I calmed their fears. I don't think I felt like I needed to. Darren Petronella: And I can't remember if I calmed their fears. I don't think I felt like I needed to. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: if I if I remember correctly. I remember specifically my mother was most concerned. Darren Petronella: if I if I remember correctly. I remember specifically my mother was most concerned. Right. And Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And She she probably called me every day and questioned what I was doing. And I'm sure she was worried that I was gonna ask her for money if this all failed, you know. but I didn't fail. I had never really failed at anything. You know, I was the kid who Darren Petronella: She she probably called me every day and questioned what I was doing. And I'm sure she was worried that I was gonna ask her for money if this all failed. Right. You know. but I didn't fail. I had never really failed at anything. You know, I was the kid who Jennifer Kelly Campbell: worked 25 hours a a week at 13. Darren Petronella: work 25 hours a a week at 13. Right. I was the kid who worked full time and went to school full time and funded my college education when my two adult parents couldn't figure out how to do that. Right. I was the kid who got scholarships to go to graduate Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I was the kid who worked full time and went to school full time and funded my college education when my two adult parents couldn't figure out how to do that. I was the kid who got scholarships to go to graduate school. Darren Petronella: school. And then kept getting better and better jobs. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And then kept getting better and better jobs. Darren Petronella: Right. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I was the one who saved money. I was the one who owned a house. I was the one who made my life better every time I learned how to do that. You know, I didn't know a lot, but I as I got older, I was always looking for ways to do things better, to learn more and do things better. Darren Petronella: I was the one who saved money. I was the one who owned a house. I was the one who made my life better. Hmm every time I learned how to do that. Right. So you were really I didn't know a lot. Right. But I as I got older, I was always looking for ways to do things better. To learn more and do things better. what are some things that for our audience to really learn in terms of like what was it about what you were doing that was you were always landing on your feet. what is it what were those traits just intrinsic personality traits, but also some things you were doing and and and I I know that you're a hard worker, so I know that's probably part of it, but just if you can kind of I guess like explain a little bit of that for us to understand like how did you not fail? I mean you kept like you kept insisting on you you're gonna gonna always achieve that next rung on the ladder and I'm you know I We like to know what's the secret sauce behind that? Relationships. Hmm. I even if it killed me, I was unfailingly pleasant. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: relationships. I even if it killed me, I was unfailingly pleasant. At work. Darren Petronella: At work. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Not so much at home, but you know, can only hold it in for so long. So I made a concerted effort to Darren Petronella: Not so much at home, but you know, can only hold it in for so long. Right. So I made a concerted effort to Jennifer Kelly Campbell: connect with people and build genuine friendships. And I was able to do that really because of my life with my brother. So he he is somebody who has language, but words are not his primary source of communication. So I could when I meet someone, watch their body language and their behavior, Darren Petronella: Connect with people and build genuine friendships. And I was able to do that really because of my life with my brother. So he is somebody who has language, but words are not his primary source of communication. So I could, when I meet someone, watch their body language and their behavior. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: to figure out who they are and what's going on with them. And I'm a very quick study of that because my brother Darren Petronella: To figure out who they are and what's going on with them. And I'm a very quick study of that because my brother would have meltdowns, but there was always physical signs of it before it happened. Okay. And you had about 10 seconds to figure it out. So I just got used to watching Jennifer Kelly Campbell: would have meltdowns, but there was always physical signs of it before it happened. And you had about 10 seconds to figure it out. So I just got used to watching him Darren Petronella: him. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: and figuring out, yep, he's gonna have a meltdown, we have to pivot. And I think that ability to really hone in on somebody and what they're going through. Darren Petronella: And figuring out, yep, he's gonna have a meltdown, we have to pivot. Right. And I think that ability to really hone in on somebody and what they're going through, like it's not just about their words, it's about how they hold themselves, the faces they're making, the way they move, and what's going on. And I was able to very quickly Jennifer Kelly Campbell: it's not just about their words, it's about how they hold themselves, the faces they're making, the way they move, and what's going on. And I was able to very quickly establish Darren Petronella: established rapport with a lot of people in a short period of time. I also think because of my brother I developed very strong intuition about people. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: rapport with a lot of people in a short period of time. I also think because of my brother I developed very strong intuition about people. Like Darren Petronella: Like who's good, who's bad, who I want to align with, who I don't. So being emotionally intelligent Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Who's good, who's bad. Who do I want to align with, who I don't? So being emotionally intelligent. and having a plan about what my next step was, what I wanted to do. Because as I got older, I got much better about saying, I want to do this. So, and then sharing that with other people. So, you know, you're putting it out in the universe, and you're ex explaining it to people that can help you, and folks that you know. Darren Petronella: and having a plan about what my next step was, what I wanted to do. Because as I got older, I got much better about saying, I want to do this. Right. So and then sharing that with other people. Right. So, you know, you're putting it out in the universe, you're ex explaining it to people that can help you, and folks that you know. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: like you and have an opportunity to help you and it and it worked but that's my that would be my primary thing is the the relationships and being pleasant pleasant people seem very easy to work with and get along with I I had to be easy at home all my life because my brother was not Darren Petronella: like you and have an opportunity to help you. Right. And it and it worked. Right. But that's my that would be my primary thing is the the relationships and being pleasant. Pleasant people seem very easy to work with and get along with. Like I I had to be easy at home all my life because my brother was not. Right. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And I they just weren't gonna my parents weren't gonna tolerate non-easy behavior from me. And so it serves me well in the workplace as well. Being easy to get along with, easy to work with. because Darren Petronella: And I they just weren't gonna my parents weren't gonna tolerate non-easy behavior from me. Right. And so it served me well in the workplace as well. Right. Being easy to get along with, easy to work with. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: that's not every there's so many people who are not easy to work with. There are s more people who are not easy to work with and who create difficulty for Darren Petronella: 'Cause that's not every there's so many people who are not easy to work with. Very true. There are s more people who are not easy to work with. Yeah. And who create difficulty for everybody in the workplace. And so I think that made me stand out for something very simple. and I also was very good at doing research. Like if I wanted to move to another organization. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: everybody in the workplace. And so I think that made me stand out for something very simple. and I also was very good at doing research. Like if I wanted to move to another organization, I would look up who all the people were, who the decision makers were, figure out who we had in common, and work Darren Petronella: I would look up who all the people were, who the decision makers were, figure out who we had in common and work, you know, network with them and and try to find out if I would be a fit for their organization. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: network with them and and try to find out if I would be a fit for their organization. Darren Petronella: Right. Were there any landmines like that you like at at any point in your career with these different changes, you know, either either from from one from one industry to the other or from one setting to the other. other than people that could be landmines, but like w were there other were there things that were like either surprising slash unexpected, that you s that you had to navigate and you being a again very emotionally intelligent, very aware, very And and also very competent, you know, have a lot of skills to navigate even when things go wrong. But I'm just I'm I'd like you to maybe, if you can, just identify one or two examples of some things that were challenges for you initially, and then of course you overcame it as time went on. I think our our audience might appreciate that. So when I transitioned from ARC to career services and I T Jennifer Kelly Campbell: So when I transitioned from ARC to career services at NYIT, Within a very short period of time, the long term president retired. And the new person Darren Petronella: Within a very short period of time, the long-term president retired. And the new person Jennifer Kelly Campbell: didn't see any value in student affairs. So he slashed our budgets, he got rid of people, and we were down to bare bones, nothing. Like not even computers in the career center. Darren Petronella: didn't see any value in student affairs. So he slashed our budgets, he got rid of people, and we were down to bare bones, nothing. Like not even computers in the career center. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: On one of our campuses, not even a space. Darren Petronella: on one of our campuses, not even a space. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: So we would write Darren Petronella: So we would write white papers about how this is a really bad decision. Right, right. Without saying that. Right. And we were constantly having to prove ourselves we had to implement data collection to show how many people we served, what we did, and we would compare ourselves to the Ivy League schools. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: white papers about how this is a really bad decision. Without saying that. And we were constantly having to prove ourselves we had to implement data collection to show how many people we served, what we did, and we would compare ourselves to the Ivy League schools. Darren Petronella: Right, right. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Which were important to him. so we got a dribble of resources. But it was very challenging to work with nothing. But that's where the alumni came in. We had several alums who donated money to renovate our spaces and to add computers and resources and things like that. But they donated books were big at the time. Now everything's online. But Darren Petronella: Which were important to him. so we got a dribble of resources. But it was very challenging to work with nothing. But that's where the alumni came in. We had several alums who donated money to renovate our spaces and to add computers and resources and things like that. But they donated books were big at the time. Now everything's online, but Jennifer Kelly Campbell: they also donated subscriptions for certain databases so students could look up ways to do graduate school. When I landed in alumni relations, the same thing had happened. They, you know, every college goes through budget cuts and they really have been higher ed has been Darren Petronella: they also donated subscriptions for certain databases so students could look up ways to to graduate school. Right. When I landed in alumni relations, the same thing had happened. They, you know, every college goes through budget cuts and they really have been higher ed has been Jennifer Kelly Campbell: On the chopping block since the 90s. So these college presidents are trying to figure out ways to save money. So since student affairs and alumni relations are external things, they're not part of the curriculum that you need to issue a diploma, and that really keeps you running. So they would slash and dash. So when I got to the first alumni job. Darren Petronella: On the chopping block since the 90s. Yeah. So these college presidents are trying to figure out ways to save money. So since student affairs and alumni relations are external things, they're not part of the curriculum that you need to issue a diploma, and that really keeps you running. So they would slash and dash. So when I got to to the first alumni job. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: They had nothing. They had a hundred thousand alums, and I was the only alumni professional. Darren Petronella: They had nothing. They had a hundred thousand alums and I was the only alumni professional. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And they had absorbed the budget, so there was nothing. So now I'm back to writing the white papers, begging for resources and trying to, you know, do case studies and showing the Darren Petronella: And they had absorbed the budget, so there was nothing. So now I'm back to writing the white papers. Right. Begging for resources and trying to, you know, do case studies and showing the the industry norm and how far below it we are and what what it's costing us in support from our alumni and donors. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: the industry norm and how far below it we are and what what it's costing us in support from our alumni and donors. the other thing is that we they would cut support people. So in alumni relations you have to do an enormous amount of data keeping. Darren Petronella: the other thing is that we they would cut support people. So in alumni relations you have to do an enormous amount of data keeping. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: So that you can contact all these people and keeping their email addresses and their texts text messages and their addresses up to date. Brutal. And I hate that stuff. Darren Petronella: So that you can contact all these people. Right. And keeping their email addresses and their texts text messages and their addresses up to date. Of course. Brutal. And I hate that stuff. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I'm a people person. I'm not, you know, behind the scenes with the little tiny bits of data. It's too too much detail for me, too granular. And I can't Darren Petronella: I'm a people person. I'm not, behind the scenes with the little tiny bits of data. It's too too much detail for me. Too granular. And I can't Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I don't have a great mind for that. So I was always vying for a support person to do that work. And then when I landed in the second alumni job, the one that I retired from, Darren Petronella: I don't have a great mind for that. So I was always vying for a support person to do that work. Right. and then when I landed in the second alumni job, the one that I retired from, Jennifer Kelly Campbell: they were at a point where they were willing to infuse resources. So then I had to quickly do my proposals. Darren Petronella: They were at a point where they were willing to infuse resources. So then I had to quickly do my proposals. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And we onboarded, which I would never recommend to anybody ever, we onboarded three technology tools at the same time. Because we got the money for it. And Darren Petronella: And we onboarded, which I would never recommend to anybody ever, we onboarded three technology tools at the same time. Because we got the money for it. Right, see, right. And Jennifer Kelly Campbell: That's what happens a lot in higher ed. You get the money for something you asked for, but now you have to onboard it. So typically what you would do is you would on one technology tool, implement a workflow, teach everybody how to use it, and then go to the next one. You do that once a year. We did three in one year. But it saved us, especially during COVID. Because we were all digital. Darren Petronella: That's what happens a lot in higher ed. You get the money for something you asked for, but now you have to onboard it. So typically what you would do is you would on one technology tool implement a workflow, teach everybody how to use it, and then go to the next one. You do that once a year. Right. We did three in one year. But it saved us, especially during COVID. Because we were all digital. Right. Wow. And that saved us. Yes. But COVID was a big landmine too, 'cause we had to completely go online. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And that saved us. But COVID was a big landmine too, because we had to completely go online, but we had onboarded all these tools and tortured ourselves in the few years before before COVID. So it was we were in a great position. And then I actually did workshops for my colleagues about how to do it during COVID, and I did that at some conferences so that because we were up and running. Darren Petronella: Right. But we had onboarded all these tools and tortured ourselves in the few years before before COVID. So it was we were in a great position. And then I actually did workshops for my colleagues about how to do it during COVID. And I did that at some conferences so that because we were up and running Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Even though it was torture. Darren Petronella: even though it was torture. Right. So when Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Mm-hmm. Darren Petronella: you think about these different pivots that you made over your career from one place to another and even even functionally, right? what was there anything that surprised you or or was that was unexpected for you? and and and how how did you kind of like navigate that? Like sometimes things just come up like you said like budget issues or other kinds of that was there anything else that maybe surprised you about you? About like you said, maybe you y some things where you it was a recognition like I'm not a I'm not really a data person. So I don't I but we that's why we need to support people but there was there anything else about you internally about how you work or just how you know the things that you hope hope to accomplish but that you that you either was a positive surprise or even a negative surprise about you about you so one of the things that I realized is I kept doing rescue missions everywhere I went. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: So one of the things that I realized is I kept doing rescue missions. Everywhere I went was a rescue mission. Darren Petronella: was a rescue mission. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And Darren Petronella: And Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I think my sibling Ness. Darren Petronella: I think my sibling next. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Created that. And it's it wasn't a good thing. So the reason the jobs were open is because nobody wanted to do them, because it was too much. It was too much. The expectations of one person to run an alumni office with a hundred thousand people and no technology resources. Darren Petronella: Created that. And it's it wasn't a good thing. So the reason the jobs were open is because nobody wanted to do them. Because it was too much. Too much. It was too much. The expectations of one person to run an alumni office with a hundred thousand people and no technology resources. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: No you can't do that. So most people who weren't used to doing too much work, which is what I all my life was, I did too much work from the time I was a a kid. I was a parentified child and I did a lot of work that other kids didn't have to do. And unfortunately I carried that through my career. Darren Petronella: No you can't do that. So most people who weren't used to doing too much work, which is what I all my life was, I did too much work from the time I was a a kid. I was a parentified child and I did a lot of work that other kids didn't have to do. And unfortunately I carried that through my career. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And I didn't realize it until the last job. And someone said to me, we were talking about the technology tools, and someone described me as a super user, which means that I'm the expert on something I hate. Darren Petronella: And I didn't realize it until the last job. And someone said to me, we were talking about the technology tools, and someone described me as a super user, which means that I'm the expert on something I hate. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: And I thought wait a minute, this is familiar everywhere I've gone. I've put up with things I hate doing and that my life as a kid. Like I just you know, my my my parents could tell me to shut up and just do it, but they couldn't tell Scott he wouldn't do it. Darren Petronella: And I thought, wait a minute, this is familiar. Everywhere I've gone. I've put up with things I hate doing. Right. And that my life is a kid. Like I just you know, my my my parents could tell me to shut up and just do it, but they couldn't tell Scott. Right. And he wouldn't do it. Right. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: so I'm always watching the superhero cartoons, even though I wanted to watch Josie and the Pussycats. that kind of thing. We're going to the movies, you know, that he wants to see, not me. So that carried through my whole life. The rescue mission, like and also the feeling of we have to get this fixed because someone's gonna die. Darren Petronella: so I'm always watching the superhero cartoons, even though I wanted to watch Josie and the Pussycats. Right. You know. Right. So that gave me go into the movies, you know, right that he wants to see, not me. So that carried through my whole life. Yeah. The rescue mission. Like and also the feeling of we have to get this fixed because someone's gonna die. Right. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Like this tremendous urgency. We have to which also is a a layover from my childhood. Darren Petronella: But this tremendous urgency. Right. We have to which also is a a layover from my childhood. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: you better move or else he's gonna have a meltdown and then we're not gonna get him back for two days. Darren Petronella: you better move or else he's gonna have a meltdown and then we're not gonna get him back for two days. How fascinating you had this circular Roundabout kind of like like repetitive kind Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Yep. Yes. Yep. Darren Petronella: of trend of always having to be the savior, always having to be the one who is in that rescue mission and has to swoop in like a superhero and save the day, right? So you maybe got that from your brother a little bit. I am my own superhero. and you had to Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Darren Petronella: do that for yourself but also for the your your department or area. And even though you didn't like it, you were that super user. You were Jennifer Kelly Campbell: I don't know. Darren Petronella: that trainer. You were that you were that person who was the go to e because in a way your brain was like, Well if I hate it this much, I better learn every freaking detail of it so that I don't So that I can teach somebody else how to do it so that I can deploy this to them. Right? Yeah. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Yeah, so I don't have to anymore. Yeah. Darren Petronella: So I think that's amazing that I didn't realize that until you just started talking about this, that how cyclical this was and how you really kind of returned it was always there from when you were a child up until you retired, that you were Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Mm-hmm. Darren Petronella: always that person who was the savior and had to kind of swoop in and fix everything. You're almost like the fixer in a way. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: The fixer, the fixer, yeah. Darren Petronella: To fix it. And that's like it's unb it's unbelievable. And I I never really I never really assigned that quality to you in a in a personal way, although you have been a you're a great friend and you're a great, you know, a great Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Thank you. Darren Petronella: family you know, you're you're you're a great person. And so but I I didn't really think about how all of those personal and professional things had really overlapped in the sense of how you approached them because you had to. that's amazing that really that that is a an interesting, ongoing, Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Yeah. Darren Petronella: repetitive kind of trend for you. That's amazing. All right. So in this in the spirit of time, I have two more questions for you. The first question Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Okay. Darren Petronella: is, these are I I know you're gonna slam dunk these two. if you could send one piece of advice back to yourself, to your younger self, and or to back to yourself at a moment of decision, like a crossroads for you, what would that piece of advice be? Can I give Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Can I give you two? Darren Petronella: you two? You can give me two. Okay. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Okay. y and I said this before, you know yourself better than anybody else, and you choose best. You choose what's best for yourself. Don't ever doubt that. And the other thing is you don't need your parents' permission or anybody's permission to do what you want. Darren Petronella: y and I said this before, you know yourself better than anybody else. I knew that was gonna be one of the and you choose best. You choose what's best for yourself. Don't ever doubt that. And the other thing is you don't need your parents' permission or anybody's permission to do what you want. You're in charge. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: You're in charge. Don't don't listen to the naysayers. Darren Petronella: Don't don't listen to the naysayers. Right. That's that's great. That's great. this is the last signature question What is the one line of your tale? something that you said along the way either today or in your mind, what is the one line in your tale that you want the audience to take with them? Other than the you already said the two lessons, but like is there something else about what your tale was about that is something that other people can say, wow, I could relate to that. it could be anything. Other than those two pieces of edice. It's never too late to follow your true noise. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: It's never too late to follow your true north. Darren Petronella: that's a great way to to put a button on that because at you now you're hopefully in a happier place than never before because you don't you're not confined by these other crazies and you're doing the things you always loved and and that's what you've always done even even while you were working, I know you were doing those things Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Mm-hmm. Darren Petronella: as well. So and I'm I'm glad that you're in a better in a place where you can do the things that you want to do Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Yes. Darren Petronella: on the time frame and scale that you want to do it. So that's amazing. Jennifer Kelly Campbell, you are just one special bird. And you're an amazing person. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: So are you Darren Petronella? Darren Petronella: And you're just really a superstar. I've always from the moment that we worked together, everyone, we worked together for a few years and I and I knew she was a superstar from like the the day that she had a car thing happen right outside the building, she was a superstar. First week, yeah. Jennifer Kelly Campbell: first week, yep. Darren Petronella: First week. And so the fact that overcame your your challenges and your s in whatever nonsense is been thrown at you and you're still standing up and you're still getting up in the morning and you're still and you're and you're a great success and you're an inspiration to many people. So thank you so much. Thank you. and thank you for being Jennifer Kelly Campbell: Thank you. Thank you. Darren Petronella: here. Attend Tale is brought to you by CareerPivot123 LLC. If you're feeling stuck or at a career crossroads or wondering what path to take next, you're not alone. Check out the Prosper Pilot, your career clarity accelerator, a comprehensive career exploration tool designed to cut through the confusion and give you a clear, personalized roadmap forward. Find more and get started today Here's what you'll get. A personalized career report tailored to your goals, interests, skills, and values. Actionable next steps. No more wondering what do I do now? So yeah, there's there's a there's a lot that we offer at Career Piver 123 and my friend and colleague Jennifer Kelly Campbell she can do things as well. I might hire her actually right after this this episode. But thank you so much everyone for tuning in today and to listening and watching. And we'll see you next time. Thank you. Have a great day.