Latest / This Week On ICE / What an immigration lawyer wants you to know about ICE

Transcript

What an immigration lawyer wants you to know about ICE · This Week On ICE

• 0:00
  [music]
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to This Week On ICE for September 9th, 2026.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Matt Kendrick.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Kelly is off this week focusing on some of our behind-the-scenes work,
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: but we have a really special episode for you.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Immigration attorney Robin Nice of McAfee & Nice Law in Boston is rejoining us
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: to talk all about how her work in the courts is being affected by the end
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: of temporary protected status,
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: third-party deportations,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: and representation for unaccompanied minors, as well as answer your questions.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, without further ado, let's dive in with Robin Nice.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Robin Nice, welcome back to This Week On ICE.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Nice to be here.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: You are our first repeat guest, so appreciate you coming back.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: What an honor.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I know this week,
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think top of mind for everybody who's kind of in this space is the end
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: of TBS status for Haitians.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen this like big crackdown in Ohio,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: all over the United States, a very aggressive campaign.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Can you help me understand how that's been playing out in the courts
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: and what recourse might remain for people who have lost their TBS status?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think the recourse in the courts is exhausted at this point.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: There might be people who are more hopeful than me.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: I hope to God there are who are continuing to fight or feel that there's ways to pursue that.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I think for most individuals in most countries, including Haiti, it's done.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think what we could do,
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: and where I do have an ounce of hope,
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: is there's nothing stopping Congress from issuing a new Haiti TPS or new TPS
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: for anyone else.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to see that.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think, I know there's been a lot of momentum around, especially the primaries.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think there was a lot of, Markey was talking about that.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: The President was talking about that.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it was just more attention on it,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: but I think that's an area where we could be a little optimistic.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: But honestly,
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: anytime we get anything pushed through by this Congress, it usually doesn't happen.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: And when it does, it's usually not good.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think to the extent that there's hope,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's on that front, not so much at the courts at this point.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so it sounds like for folks who have been given ankle monitors or,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: are sort of being allowed to be in the community temporarily,
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: that is simply temporary.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like they will be deported at some point.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, unless they pivot or to something else or like they have an asylum claim.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the most common flavor of alternative relief or plan B.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of folks,
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: we have a lot of clients who had both going in tandem already,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: which is Totally fine and normal.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So in theory,
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: if you're somebody who had TPS and already had an asylum application pending,
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: it shouldn't really matter the fact that TPS has ended.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're still going to have a work permit.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: You're still lawfully present in the U.S. through asylum.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: But for those who haven't yet filed and are perhaps scrambling to figure out
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: if they can file,
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: if they should file,
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: if they can find a reputable attorney or legal services provider who has capacity,
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: good luck.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: It is really hard.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think So there's definitely going to be people who fall through the cracks and
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: who are just on a temporary reprieve,
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: essentially,
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: until the government figures out how to round people up,
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: essentially, even more so than they're already doing.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so you mentioned asylum being one of the only remaining paths there.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And yet asylum has become unbelievably difficult to even apply for.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like if you didn't have that process underway,
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: or have a,
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: tell me if I'm wrong,
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: but if you didn't have that process underway,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: before TBS ended, is there really any, any way to get on it now?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a good question.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: As the asylum officers explain,
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: you're supposed to file for TPS or apply for asylum within one year of your arrival.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So why didn't you?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, but there's exceptions to that.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And one of those exceptions is having lawful status in some other capacity.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that includes TPS or some other either immigrant or non-immigrant status.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: So in that situation,
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: you're supposed to apply within a reasonable period of time after your TPS
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: or other status ends.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: There used to be historically,
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: there's been like a good faith understanding that within six months of
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: that change counts as a reasonable period of time.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we can rely on that.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we've always, it's always safer to apply for asylum before TPS ended.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Those that we had a big push to try to get people until you're debating to apply
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: before TPS ended.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: But really, it's sort of a case of no time like the present, better late than never situation.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you're going to apply, it's still better to do it today than it is to do it tomorrow.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because each day that passes, you're going to have to explain how that's going to be.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Finding an attorney or getting funds is not going to be accepted.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so moving on beyond the TPS status,
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: this has just been a scary time for anybody who might be under ICE's surveillance
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: or might be a target for ICE.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: We saw 50,000 arrests in July, the highest record on number.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Horrifying.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Horrifying.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: And of course,
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: multiple deaths during this crackdown,
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: multiple very scary arrests at airports that were filmed.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: How is the legal system handling such a high rate of arrests?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: What has this meant for you and your colleagues trying to represent people?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: We've been handling it poorly.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're doing the very best we can, but everyone is overwhelmed.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I say that with recognition that,
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: me complaining or lamenting how broken the system is means nothing compared to
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: the folks who are living it every day.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's been wild.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: It is very hard to keep up with all the legal changes.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you throw in Policies and practices changing every day, it's very hard.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like to give an example,
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: my colleague across the hall,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: another attorney at our firm,
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: yesterday she got a notice for an individual,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: so final asylum hearing, scheduled on September 15th.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way in hell for a non-detained person.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And she submitted already like a motion to continue because it was completely out of nowhere.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And she called the court to be like,
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to make sure that this gets in front of the judge
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: because there is no way.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot schedule a hearing with nine business days of notice.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, oh, we don't actually know how to get in touch with that judge.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: That judge is actually based in Michigan,
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: even though they're going to be hearing cases in Chelmsford or Boston.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they're new,
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: so we don't know what their preferred messaging system is,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: if we can just call them or message them.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they don't have a clerk, or at least not yet.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just...
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good example because it just shows how just minor things,
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: stuff that doesn't make the headlines,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: but when you think about all these judges getting fired and hired,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: think about how long it takes to onboard someone.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then that person's going to come in with their own ideas about how stuff is going to work.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: The immigration attorneys in our New England area right now are constantly editing
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: and cobbling together a chart for all the different judges and Who allows you
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: to appear by video?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Who requires a motion?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Who allows you just to file the motion and assume it'll get granted?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Who will yell at you as I had have yesterday that had happened to me?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: You file a motion and just doesn't get ruled on in time.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's things like that that is just constantly,
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: if I thought the administration was more organized than it is,
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: I would think it's intentionally trying to frustrate And wear out
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: the immigration attorneys as well, of course, as the actual immigrants.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's just a slog every freaking day.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: I talked to two other immigration attorneys today,
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: not at my office, who said that August was their busiest month by far.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Court is going gangbusters.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: The asylum offices are scheduling tons and tons.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're seeing people get referred to court out of nowhere.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: All the airport arrests, obviously, have been a huge impact.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just coming at it from every angle.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a waterfall of updates and changes.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, you know,
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: like maybe this is a naive question,
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: but when you describe that system,
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: when we've seen the reports of like the horrible condition migrants are kept in,
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: is there any kind of due process appeal that someone might be like,
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: were they able to say like, I was snatched off the street.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was not, you know, my attorneys didn't have time to prepare to see the judge.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was held in these terrible conditions.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: maybe if they were subject to third party deportation,
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: like sent to a country,
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: they Does that hypothetical person have some hypothetical way to go to the U.S.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: government and say, like,
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was treated really badly and I want my case to be heard again or something like
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: that?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, potentially, potentially.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think there's lots of challenges to that, but I think some of those, potentially, yes.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think some of the challenges you're looking at there are,
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: like, a lot of immigration attorneys, you know, we stay in our lane.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we start talking, like,
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: when we start talking about, like,
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: asserting your rights and, like,
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: A district court or circuit,
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: court of appeals setting,
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: that's a whole different area of law that we need to learn now and we need
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: to learn
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: it from that.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: So like when we're talking,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: like we as an immigration bar just got comfortable filing habeas petitions in
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: the district court and even that is,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know, Taking a course outside our major, essentially.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you're talking about like filing,
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: like it's like a Bivens claim or Federal Tort Crimes Act claim,
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: that's where you argue that the conditions of detention themselves are subpar
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: or there's an overarching due process violation.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, again,
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: that's another subject area outside of our major and we can do it,
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: but it's freezing in unpleasant ways.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's another area where,
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: so like, yes, it's theoretically possible, but Attorneys only have so much time.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's super hard.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine trying to navigate that as an unrepresented individual.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: The immigrants themselves get exhausted.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: The number of times I've had clients just tell me, I just don't want to do this anymore.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel welcome here.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've lost my job.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why would I stay here?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: If I have anywhere else to go, this is not my first choice.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: But like, yeah, in theory, yes, but the barriers are huge.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know what the ultimate relief is at the end of the day.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's the odds are stacked against folks,
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: especially if they've already actually been deported to a third country.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's so hard to get back.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And speaking of that third party deportation,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: this is a subject Kelly and I have been covering and trying to find out more
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: and more about, but it's so obscure.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious if you had any clients who have been subject to or threatened
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: by third party deportation and what your experience has been.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we had, I mean, there's a different, couple different varieties of it.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: What we've had come up, and I just had this happen yesterday, is asylum cooperative agreements.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I've had two clients get ordered deported to Uganda,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: which no slight against Uganda,
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: except I have a lot of clients seeking asylum from there.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a random country for someone who's from Cameroon or Democratic Republic
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: of Congo to get sent to.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's, yeah, it just feels It is arbitrary.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And what's really frustrating about it,
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: too, is there's no published policy that I can see or even a leaked email.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I've had at least two different DHS attorneys in other jurisdictions,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: not in Massachusetts,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: say kind of nonchalantly off the record to the court, like, oh, yeah, well,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: we're not filing any new ACA motions to pretermint,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: meaning we're not doing that anymore.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: But If we filed one previously, we're going to just sink our teeth into that with a hungry dog.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: They're not letting go on those, which makes it feel even that much more arbitrary.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's so frustrating.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: it's heartbreaking and all the more so because when I'm telling my clients,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: we can appeal this, but I'm assuming, and you should as well, that if this goes...
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: The Board of Immigration Appeals is just going to rubber stamp it.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So the game we're playing here is either that we lose at the Board of Appeals and
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: then we appeal it to the actual judges at the First Circuit,
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: which is more expensive,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: more time,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: more stress,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: or someone else paves the way for us and we could draft behind them
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: because there'll be a lawsuit invalidating it.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's absolutely heartbreaking.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you prepare these clients to talk through,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know, the most traumatic events of their whole life.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you get,
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: we prepare their psychologists and they've gone through medical evaluations,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: documenting scars.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: We practice for hours and hours and then it gets pre-termitted
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: and they don't even get to tell their story.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just over.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's terrible.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is awful.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it makes no sense.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because what the immigration judges say was,
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: according to them,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: they don't,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: according to the statute or the regs,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: they don't have the authority to vet this agreement.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So you could have a cocktail napkin signed by one of Trump's cronies and
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: the equivalent in another...
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Unrelated countries saying, yeah, we'll take some people.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And like, that's it.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's no terms.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's no framework.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's a promise to a promise to a promise.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And if that, it's absurd.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I'm hopeful it'll be invalidated.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: At some point, but there's already people, obviously, who've been victimized by it.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: The harm is ongoing, for sure.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also curious,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: just in the context of TPS ending for Haitians,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: we've seen the administration put out these claims that, like, oh,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: if you opt for self-deportation, we'll buy your ticket and we'll give you $2,600.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: But then in the New York Times,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: some of the Haitians who opted for that said, well, I never got my money.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious if you've had people opt for self-deportation and
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: if they've had similar experiences.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've had one and I have to follow up with them because it's,
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: frankly, once people are out of the country, it's really hard.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: They tend to focus on putting their life back together.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: But last time I talked to him, it was radio silence.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: He submitted a request and just nothing came of it.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, I'm Who's going to be surprised by that?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, to be clear, we should be outraged because it's a trick and it's a scam.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: But of course not.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Once you're out, cool.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Why would we give you money?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's from the administration's point of view, I'm sure.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know of any,
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: besides that one example,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know of anyone who's tried,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: but I've told people when we talk through it, don't assume you're getting any money.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to leave because you want to leave, go for it.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: If you get money, cool.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: But don't assume, don't do it for the money because I don't think that's going to materialize.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Or if it does, it's going to take ages.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just not very much money either.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Also, no.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's so like patronizing and gross.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: we'll give you Trump change,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: essentially, to go back to a country where maybe your life is in danger.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: There was another story out,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think also in the Times,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: like several weeks ago,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: that there are ways in which people who have self-deported or
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: who have been deported might still owe the U.S. government like up to $5,000, right?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's so Kafkaesque.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Kafkaesque is...
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: It totally is.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've got a few of those letters where it's like, you owe the government $850,000.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you've got to be effing kidding me.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, in what world?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's ludicrous.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I wanted to turn to something like quite tragic, but that I think is not... Oh, no.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to say happy.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is a bad one.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: we've had this situation with unaccompanied minors,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: and I have to say I don't fully understand it because I don't quite understand what
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: the status quo was and what it's changed to.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: But their representation in court has been essentially handed kind of to one law firm.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Could you explain to listeners how it's supposed to work and why there are concerns
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: over the way that it's been handed to this one law firm?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'll be honest with you,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: I've lost track,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: but the last, I know it was initially transferred to that one law firm in Texas.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think that like didn't materialize or it got spliced up
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: and now there's also like an NGO called Our Rescue or something that's doing some
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: of them.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: right, right, right, yeah.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care who does it.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very skeptical.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the way it should work,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: the way it should work is we shouldn't deport children, period, end of sentence.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, That's how it should be.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: But even if we wanted to go back to the status quo,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: shitty as it was,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: what that looked like was there was actual meaningful federal funding,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: which is kind of absurd because the feds are the ones deporting them,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: but whatever,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: given to kind kids in need of defense and some other organizations
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: that helped subsidize representation for minors or run nonprofits that trained folks
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: to do that.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And Was that a perfect system?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, but it was a system.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And my understanding is essentially,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: effectively,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: the government pulled all that funding, slash,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: was going to maybe keep some of that funding,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: but on the condition that they shared a bunch of data about the kids,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: which is screwed up, obviously.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So what we have now, I mean,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: the fact that the administration was ever thinking That they would give,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: what was it,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: $150 million or some crazy $1.5 million,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I forget,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it was,
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: to handle all of the immigration children cases to one law firm
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: where there were no immigration attorneys?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's insane.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's insane.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think at the end of the day,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: it's hard to say, like,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: what the right solution is besides just a hard stop on children being in any kind
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: of removal proceedings.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Especially if we're not going to automatically appoint an attorney for them.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: That should be just immediate from day one.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: It should be the highest quality attorneys.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: But if we're not going to do that,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: we at least should not give huge chunks of money to people who don't appear to have
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: the ability or expertise.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: And like...
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, and in some of the most sensitive cases where the potential
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: for harm is just absolutely enormous, and we're taking so little care.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate you explaining that.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to pose a couple questions from listeners now.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: So one listener asked, what should one do or say if confronted with an ICE agent in real life?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know who they are,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: but there's this couple who does TikTok videos or something,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: and they're just this really cute couple,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: and they're talking about it in their criminal context.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it looks like grandparents and they're like having tea.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And whenever they're asked these questions, they just say, shut the fuck up.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's ditto that.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think unless ICE is coming at you with a judicial warrant,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: which again is signed by an actual judge,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: it'll say usually like judicial warrant or court warrant on it and be signed by
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: a judge or a magistrate, unless they have that, You don't have to talk to them.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really important people for sure know their rights.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: They can carry around the little red cards.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: The ILRC, which I always forget, Immigration Legal Resource Center has free ones for nonprofits.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Libraries often have them.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can print your own.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be read.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: But the idea is your mouth is glued shut and you hand them this card and it says,
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to talk to you.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: I have the right to talk to an attorney.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm evoking my right to...
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Not talk to you, not self-incriminate.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people certainly can,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: carry around evidence of their immigration status or their citizenship if they want
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: to.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a very personal choice.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I wouldn't, frankly, presume to tell someone what to do, especially if you're a citizen.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what people naively assume sometimes,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: unfortunately,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: as much as it should be true,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: that it's not I've had clients oftentimes say, well,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm allowed to be here though,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: so I'll just show them my work permit or I'll just show them
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: the document showing I have my next hearing date.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: No, now you've just verified who you are and they don't give a damn.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: What we saw at Logan in Boston was that they're detaining lots of people.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: TSA is sharing their flight rosters and they're detaining folks
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: who have pending asylum applications,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: have real IDs to travel, but they just don't care.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Shut your mouth.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Don't open the door if you're in your car or your house or your building.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And ask for a warrant.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you say anything, say, I want a warrant or I want an attorney.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think that applies generally.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a crazy anti-cop person,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: but I think generally when it comes to law enforcement,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: the less you say, the better.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean you can't cooperate and share and be helpful if and when it comes to that.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: But just protect yourself as much as anyone else, I guess.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Another listener asked,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: just thinking of how busy you are and how much work you do,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: how can ordinary people support the work that you and other immigration attorneys do
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: as private citizens?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think if there's a local ICE detention center or processing center
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: or court near you,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know clients get a tremendous amount of emotional support
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: from seeing people protesting or just being there to observe.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: I know I do whenever I drive to like the Burlington Mass Icefield office
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: to help someone with a check-in or something.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'll drop off any like diapers we aged out of at home and toys that I can't stand
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: the sight of anymore.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: there's always a table of folks who are just there to greet people
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: and give them some water, give them a toy.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And give them some resources.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's tremendously helpful.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think getting training,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think, again,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think you have to help yourself and educate yourself before you can help others.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: So getting training,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's through like Luce or in Massachusetts,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: we have Bijan, but just Google like immigration nonprofit near me or trainings.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's tons of trainings.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: The ACLU has some great information that's state specific or federal about trainings
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: in your area or Like just,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: different organizations or, you know, give, if you have money, give your money.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like people, like give them to nonprofits, like vet the nonprofits or talk to them or whatever.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: But, or, I mean, a lot of attorneys, we started doing this about a year ago.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: We started like having a little link on our website saying,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: if you want to like donate funds,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: so we cover filing fees for clients who can't afford it.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we send you a nice little thank you card.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And lots of places do that.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you look for that on You know, the local websites.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, yeah,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think knowing your rights and not being shy about filming ICE,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: you don't want to interfere,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: but you can always, you know, film if you see something.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think just educate yourself.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And also, like,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: speak up for folks who aren't in the room when,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: if someone is using the word alien or,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: these illegals or something like that, like,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Speak up,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: because I think the more silence we are, silence is complicity at this point.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you just got to make sure the culture of xenophobia is not tolerated
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: at any level or in any form.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll include the link to your website as well, so folks can donate there.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was like, no, I don't mean to make a plug.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I just meant in general.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, There's no plug.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're very happy to do it.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: We're very happy to do it and happy to let people know that's an option available to them.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I guess my last question, I always just like to end on an open-ended thing.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering if you've had a particular theme or takeaway or life lesson
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: that has occurred to you while doing this very difficult work over
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: the last four months.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, I really feel like I should.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think as frustrated or
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely depleted,
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: as I'm sure my colleagues get a lot of the time, there's always a glimmer of hope.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And until that changes and until that glimmer goes away,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: I will feel hopeful and that things will turn around.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think things are probably going to still get worse before they get better.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we see all the district courts who are granting habeas
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: or immediate release for folks who were detained without a right to a bond hearing.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: We saw the ACLU one cases in the first circuit and the third circuit in
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: the last few weeks that made it so we don't have to go
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: to district court every single time we need someone released from detention.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: SCOTUS is going to screw us with the attorney equal access to justice fees, but whatever.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're going to win the war, not the battle, I guess.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I think just it's made me I have been so much Putting so much more stock
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: and appreciation and seeing those little glimmers of hope.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's the judge who buys his own box of tissues because
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: the court provided ones either don't exist or too scratchy.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's the judges who post a call for all immigration judges to resign.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's talking to people who talk back in master hearings and push back on the judges
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: when they're deporting children or giving them a hard time.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I think Every single one of those is just what sustains me.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: But just I think I become more appreciative of those little tiny bits
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: of human kindness or just humanity in general.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you letting us know about that.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's very powerful.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: You always have to appreciate the small good things in life,
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: even when you're faced with this enormous catastrophe that we've been dealing with
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: in this country.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Robin Nice, thank you so much for coming back on This Week On ICE.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're always welcome anytime.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And we really appreciate you making time for us.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to speak with you.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having this platform.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much again, Robin, and thank you all for listening.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: As always,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: we love to hear from you,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: so please do keep sending in questions and tips to thisweekonice at gmail.com,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: as well as on Instagram and TikTok at thisweekonice.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Stay safe, look out for your neighbors, and we'll see you next time.