Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Circularity | Joe Iles | S6 E3
Transcript
- 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:35:12 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to season six episode three of Future of XYZ. Today we are going to be speaking about a topic that is super close to my heart and very important for the future of the world, which is the future of circularity. With us we have Joe Iles. Joe is the design activation lead at the Ellen MacArthur Foundation based in the UK, but activating organizations and policy makers around the world on principles of the circular economy, circularity and specifically circular design. 00:00:35:17 - 00:00:40:09 Speaker 1 So Joe, thank you so much for speaking with Future of XYZ today. 00:00:40:11 - 00:00:42:16 Speaker 2 Thanks, Lisa. Thanks for having me. 00:00:42:18 - 00:01:12:02 Speaker 1 Well, you know, first of all, that I'm a huge Ellen MacArthur Foundation junkie fan, I guess you'd say. I love the work that you guys are doing. You've been with the foundation since 2011. You studied history, but you really started with this kind of, you know, I guess, channel insights, news conglomeration around, you know, the circular economy. And you founded that a long time ago called Circulate, which you then worked on with the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. 00:01:12:04 - 00:01:25:18 Speaker 1 I'm curious, given all of your expertise and experience in what many of our listeners and viewers aren't going to even know what circularity means, I'd love you to take a moment to define it in the context of this experience. 00:01:25:20 - 00:01:48:03 Speaker 2 Sure. Yeah. Happy to. Well, circularity. And when we talk more about the circular economy and maybe we can sort of get into to why that is and to us, the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, the circular economy is a system in which materials never become waste. So it sort of takes nature as inspiration in that sense. And so there's no such thing as waste. 00:01:48:03 - 00:02:13:18 Speaker 2 Nature is regenerated. And we think that this is a model that tackles climate change, that other global challenges, like, you know, other types of pollution and biodiversity loss, chronic waste, things like that, and and has the aspiration to decouple economic activity from the consumption of finite resources. So that's what a circular economy means to us. And it's really it really comes down to three main principles. 00:02:13:20 - 00:02:37:08 Speaker 2 Eliminate waste and pollution. So identify, reveal, and eliminate the sources of waste and pollution rather than treating those things as as sort of inevitable and trying to then treat them after they've happened. Second principle circulate products of materials at their highest value for as long as possible. So if something is working, okay, keep it working. Keep it in use for as long as you can. 00:02:37:09 - 00:02:51:01 Speaker 2 And then thirdly, regenerate nature. Put back at least as much as you take out from from natural systems. And if we if we use design, we can we can build an economy that works along those principles. 00:02:51:03 - 00:03:15:12 Speaker 1 Thank you for going through those three principles. I mean, there's so many threads there then to pull out, which I love of course. I'm going to I'm just going to start in I've heard an interview with you where previously you said, “Design is a force for change. Design has the power to reshape our economy.” I obviously work for a design organization. 00:03:15:12 - 00:03:40:17 Speaker 1 I'm a huge proponent of both sustainability and sustainable principles, social impact and design. I think design is kind of the foundation of everything that we create in this world, whether we're talking places and products or packaging and platforms or even, frankly, policies. You've just talked about talking about the circular economy. Like, where does circularity and economics actually connect? 00:03:40:21 - 00:04:05:09 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I'm, I, you know, I totally chime with you on on the role of design and the design decisions that the create our, the world around us. As far as the economics are concerned? Well, the reason that we're pretty insistent about this term circular economy is that it really has to work economically. So our economy, we know, is dependent currently on huge volumes of resources and energy. 00:04:05:09 - 00:04:30:20 Speaker 2 And most of the stuff that we use, we lose. And mostly just after a really short usage period after which ends up as waste. And when we, you know, we sometimes forget that the economy exists to provide wellbeing, to provide opportunity, to provide security to people. Sometimes when we think we hear about the economy in the news, it's almost like this sort of mystical beast that sort of floats around living in the mountains or something. 00:04:31:01 - 00:05:02:15 Speaker 2 No, it's a it's a thing that we sort of the decisions that we make in business and the things we buy in through policy is the thing that is sort of is is created a hugely complex thing, but it exists to deliver wellbeing to people. So for that economy to work long into the future and continue to provide the things that we need, prosperity to the people of of Earth, it really needs to switch from linear to circular because it really can't work when it's dependent on huge volumes of finite resources and energy. 00:05:02:17 - 00:05:26:05 Speaker 2 The other point, just with the economy bit, because I think it really drives home the system's angle. It’s not really sufficient just to have a great product or a one great material that you launch into the world and you say, I'm sure everything's going to be fine now. Props to the people who are doing that, this important work. But the whole economy has to shift. It’s a systems play, the policy, behavior, product design. 00:05:26:20 - 00:05:28:01 Speaker 1 Service design. 00:05:28:03 - 00:05:30:17 Speaker 2 Service design. It has to work together in concert. 00:05:30:19 - 00:05:54:00 Speaker 1 Yeah, I know. I love that. I mean, I'm a big systems thinker and I and I and I often realize when you're doing change management in an organization, for instance, or in anything, you know, you lift up the rock and you're like, cool, we're just going to do that. And you lift up the rock and it's like all the all the critters scatter and you're like, like there were so many interdependencies, let's just put it. 00:05:54:00 - 00:06:15:06 Speaker 1 And when you're talking about the global supply chain, when you're talking about the global economy, it's not just to your point, able to take one product and and make the world different. You need to be able to have a supply chain and a materiality and a labor force and a recyclability, upcycle-ability, reclaim-ability, etc., that really work together. 00:06:15:06 - 00:06:42:06 Speaker 2 For sure. And that's why I think, you know, sort of understandably, we have we see a lot of people saying, well, you know what, because I lifted up the rock and it was crazy complex. Maybe I'll just try and do what I'm doing now, but just make it a bit more efficient. I'll just use a bit less resources and energy, but ultimately just make do things in the same way and you know, that's fine, but that isn't the model for an economy that works in the long term. 00:06:42:06 - 00:06:51:20 Speaker 2 It just it just sort of stretches things out a bit further into the future rather than treating the fundamentals of an economy that doesn't work in the long term. 00:06:51:22 - 00:07:17:21 Speaker 1 I want to get into some brass tacks, but I first want to ask you a question that I think is really material to this conversation and also the work that you do that Ellen MacArthur Foundation does, and frankly, that our presenting sponsor, iF Design does, what is the role of design and specifically designers in creating or adopting or embracing or amplifying circular principles? 00:07:17:23 - 00:07:46:15 Speaker 2 Yeah, well, I think again, it comes back to the fact that everything around us is designed, the decisions we make influence how we make and use things and, and some of those things. It's, you know, when we think of, you know, a beautiful sports car or a piece of designer clothing, it's very sort of we have often that's what comes to mind when people think of of design and the role the agency of designer in those things is pretty obvious. 00:07:46:17 - 00:08:17:16 Speaker 2 And often celebrated. But, you know, design decisions influence, you know, where we shop, the food we buy, how we travel, how we communicate, all our sort of wants and needs as well. That sort of manufactured desire sort of bridging over into some sort of marketing. So those decisions that designers are making influence how we make and use things and that those decisions once they're made, are really hard to reverse. 00:08:17:16 - 00:08:42:17 Speaker 2 And I always like to think of, you know, the sort of scourge of, of, of microplastics, which is well documented. But it's it's almost impossible to imagine, like gaining, getting all the microplastics out of the environment and and and sort of recovering them. It's entirely possible. Yeah. Unfortunately right. I hate to be pessimistic, but it's entirely possible. 00:08:42:17 - 00:09:04:08 Speaker 2 And here's the optimism to envisage a piece of clothing or a packaging system that never leaks plastic, to the environment. So really it places the emphasis on those upstream design decisions and that point around eliminating waste and pollution at source rather than trying to treat it downstream. And that's really where where designers come in. 00:09:04:10 - 00:09:26:13 Speaker 1 And you've alluded to like food systems. I know fashion is I mean, that was my original background. That's how I got out of fashion and went into sustainability. You know, in business, fashion is a huge polluter in lots of different aspects, not just the end product. I think a lot of people don't really know that. Like, you know, obviously, like I think it's a third of clothes that we produce, like never even like get sold. 00:09:26:15 - 00:09:47:15 Speaker 1 But that's just the final end product. What industries are kind of the most ripe at this particular moment and then looking kind of into the future for adopting? I know it's all industries, but what are like kind of the the, the biggest industries that you're most bullish about for the future of adopting circular principles and having that kind of mass impact? 00:09:47:17 - 00:10:15:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, Yeah. Well, you know, you've named a few of them, right? So, so plastics, you know, I don't know, I think about 80% of packaging that never, never gets recycled. Right. And 50% of all of packaging, plastic packaging is single use. Fashion and textiles for sure, which you just mentioned, I think less than 1% of of clothing is recycled. 00:10:15:16 - 00:10:28:20 Speaker 2 Most is landfilled or burnt and huge amounts of structural waste clothing that was never, never used, whether unsold or, you know, sit in the back of our closets, which I think if we are honest, a lot of us can relate to. And then and. 00:10:28:21 - 00:10:30:09 Speaker 1 No, definitely not. 00:10:30:11 - 00:11:02:07 Speaker 2 You liar. And then food. Yeah food systems in which the way that we you know there's there's waste problems again throughout the you know the from the farm to to the fork and and beyond that all along that chain there's different types of more or less and less visible waste. And then the way that we treat natural systems, which we depend on for food is like a sort of mine, like we just constantly extract the value from those without thinking about the soil's ability to to regenerate itself and continue to provide what we need. 00:11:02:07 - 00:11:08:13 Speaker 2 And that's where good work is going on in regenerative agriculture. The built environment is another one, right? 00:11:08:15 - 00:11:11:14 Speaker 1 The cities and homes and. 00:11:11:16 - 00:11:40:09 Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure the energy, energy use on one part, but also the huge energy intensity of things like concrete, the the design of cities and and the you know what where amenities are placed and mass transport systems and so on. The role of green spaces in cities and the services that they provide both in cooling and, you know, ecosystem and habitat and things like that. 00:11:40:09 - 00:12:06:12 Speaker 2 And in that area, folks like Janine Benyus and Biomimicry 3.8, are really on it. We released a report earlier this year called Building Prosperity, which which covered some of that ground as well. So, yeah, those are those are for plastics, fashion, food, The environment. But then areas like finance are going to be absolutely critical. And, you know, I haven't even mentioned electronics, which is a huge waste stream. 00:12:06:12 - 00:12:21:23 Speaker 2 So you said it in the question, right? Every industry is just some of them are moving at different paces. For some, the you know, the solutions are a little more obvious. For others, so that there's well, across the board, there's a lot of work to be done. 00:12:22:00 - 00:12:44:01 Speaker 1 Thanks for the comprehensive kind of look at this. I mean, I feel like, as I mentioned at the outset, like I think a lot of people listening and watching may never even heard of circularity or circular economy. I would argue, and I know it's a little different this is the next level, but I first came to this topic through like Cradle to Cradle C2C, which is still a certification and an institution. 00:12:44:03 - 00:13:09:24 Speaker 1 And I think it's it does a very good job. And I think some of your guys work does a good job of explaining literally nonlinear finite resources. Right. Extractive versus regenerative. It's a it's a it's a it's a from from birth to death kind of. Right. Like you're trying to maximize the life cycle. How do these principles really I mean, there's a lot of hype around sustainability right now and also a lot of fear and a lot of doubt. 00:13:10:01 - 00:13:31:00 Speaker 1 I think most humans who have an ability to kind of think beyond their immediate needs understand that this is we're not doing good for the planet and we need to do better. What is the opportunity for these circular you know, kind of cradle to cradle type principles to really impact climate change and to have a positive social impact? 00:13:31:06 - 00:13:32:18 Speaker 1 What's the opportunity? 00:13:32:20 - 00:14:06:11 Speaker 2 Wow. I mean, it's huge just taking just taking climate change. We can't fix the climate unless we fix the economy again. The a significant amount of waste of emissions, of pollution come from the way that we make and use things. A study from us that we produced a few years ago called “Completing the Picture”, estimated that around 55% of the emissions reductions that we need to see comes from renewables and energy efficiency. Super important. 00:14:06:11 - 00:14:31:07 Speaker 2 You know, 55% big part of the solution space. But the good news is in some markets, renewable energy is reaching sort of price parity or is cheaper than than fossil fuels and that there's a huge amount of investment in that space and a lot of coverage over renewables and efficiency measures, which is great. But what about that, that missing piece, the 45%? 00:14:31:09 - 00:14:53:07 Speaker 2 Well, that comes from the 45% of remaining emissions that are harder to address come from how we make and use products, how we grow food and how we manage land. And that's the space where all those spaces are not where renewable energy and efficiency should needs to show up. That's where the principle of a circular economy need to show how we make and use things. 00:14:53:09 - 00:15:29:03 Speaker 2 So that and that's where business models like, you know, rental sharing, reuse, repair, remanufacturing, regenerative agriculture for food, growing food and managing land. That's where those come into play. So a huge relevance of the circular economy in climate change, in addressing climate change. On the social side, well, you know, I can definitely say that the Ellen MacArthur Foundation has been really focused on materials as an entry point to talking about the circular economy and the way that our economy works, because it's it's a really urgent problem. 00:15:29:03 - 00:16:08:22 Speaker 2 It's massively overlooked. And it's it's it's gargantuan and complex. But but and many other amazing organizations have picked up this point and are running with it. And in many of our reports of the past few years, we've also highlighted the social impact as well. And perhaps the best way to sum it up, sort of without going into a lot of detail, given the time we have. I think it's fair to say the people that suffer or are disadvantaged by the negative consequences of today's linear economy are those that are least able to protect themselves from it or sort of opt out of that. 00:16:08:22 - 00:16:44:01 Speaker 2 They can't they can't easily move to a cooler climate. They can't easily buy food that's grown in a regenerative way. They can't necessarily buy a, you know, a £500 piece of furniture that you can repair or treat with a nice piece of varnish to keep it going and handed down to generations that follow you. So that's why we need a circular economy that can deliver opportunity and well-being and make better solutions available to everyone. 00:16:44:01 - 00:16:45:01 Speaker 2 So there's absolutely... 00:16:45:01 - 00:16:46:21 Speaker 1 It’s an access question is what you're describing. 00:16:47:02 - 00:17:05:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. An access question is, you know, again, this comes back to, you know, this isn't just like a sort of niche, like a niche sort of sort of bougie sort of option for people that can afford it. This is a it's an economic shift. So it has to be, has to be accessible and available to everyone that participates in the economy. 00:17:05:16 - 00:17:13:17 Speaker 1 Which is everyone. I mean, I have an ideally that's the social impact, right? Ideally, our eight and a half billion people, everyone gets to participate. 00:17:13:19 - 00:17:24:17 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But because then what's the alternative? It's a it's an economy of, of sort of exclusion and, and disadvantage which, which none of us aspire to. 00:17:24:19 - 00:17:50:04 Speaker 1 No, I mean, I mean I think there are unfortunately some people who do aspire to that, which is I guess leads me to my next question which is like are there some, you know, either best in class examples of circular programs that you've seen and the results of those and really how widely adopted, or yeah, how widely adopted are kind of circular principles today and what needs to happen to kind of grow this? 00:17:50:06 - 00:17:53:18 Speaker 1 It's like four questions in one, but however you want. 00:17:53:20 - 00:18:14:24 Speaker 2 Yeah, sure. Well, I'm going to pick a I'm going to pick something that the foundation has worked on a project out of our fashion work and it's, it's kind of my favorite thing that we've done really is called the jeans redesign. And in that project we brought together initially about 50 companies from across the denim supply chain. 00:18:15:01 - 00:18:16:06 Speaker 1 5-0 companies. 00:18:16:11 - 00:18:53:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, initially 50. And it quite quickly went up to over 100. But it was dyeing companies, you know, denim mills, brands, retailers, waste management, folks like that. And we over two days they drafted up the basic guidelines for first circular jeans. If you're going to design jeans for a circular economy, how how would you do that? And if so, it was about durability, about chemicals, about the rivets in the metal work, how that needs to be able to be removed, how many washes can they last and so on. 00:18:53:15 - 00:19:19:09 Speaker 2 And then they took those all the brands took those away and used them to design jeans that were fit for a circular economy. And now I think over 1.5 million pairs of jeans have been sold according to those guidelines. And it's sort of not even really about the initial like people going out and buying those jeans. For me what was super interesting, is that that is a few things. 00:19:19:09 - 00:19:46:15 Speaker 2 One, that's a model where we're saying let's try and seed, let's put into the economy products, products and materials, that we want to circulate in the future because hopefully all those jeans are going to be still knocking around for a good few years. Yeah, but when it comes to trying to keep them in the loop, either in their current form or the materials they're designed from the outset to to fit in a loop that that works economically. 00:19:46:15 - 00:20:06:21 Speaker 2 And where there's a it's sort of viable for companies to engage in that. The other thing that I think is, you know, if we think about models for collaboration, the type of collaboration that we need for a circular economy, what's interesting about this is that in that group you had, I believe, Tommy Hilfiger and Primark, So a sort of more mass. 00:20:06:23 - 00:20:40:00 Speaker 2 Yeah, mass. And then, you know, as sort the higher end high price point product. So both but both producing to the same sort of protocols. Yeah. And to me that that represents this form of, you know, competition and cooperation is really interesting and it's sort of sort of it's sort of the way the Internet works, right? A basic set of protocols that lets everything went together, but above which you can have a flourishing of creativity and, and, and, and, and variance that that is good for people, broadly speaking. 00:20:40:02 - 00:20:57:02 Speaker 2 So I think that's sort of what we need to think of with our with our material world is is a set of protocols, standards that everyone can subscribe to, but then you can sort of flourish and experiment above that, above that baseline because it's all designed to work. 00:20:57:04 - 00:21:29:08 Speaker 1 Thank you for giving the example. I have to just do a plug. It's an old book now, but Fugitive Denim is a book that was one of the first books that I ever read when I was getting into this in like 2006, 2005 where I was like, oh boy, like, you know, and it's chase. It traces one pair of jeans through its life cycle and you see labor practices and agricultural practice on the cotton and the cotton picking all the way to the sewing, to the rivets, you know, and, and you realize like the globalization that, you know, many are kind of bemoaning right now. 00:21:29:14 - 00:21:50:02 Speaker 1 But not only is every single thing connected, but again, also that impacts the carbon footprint, which is something else, I guess, that circular principles are trying to, you know, kind of address, which is like how do you make things practical, local, interior, interchangeable, recyclable, all that, all, all the things on the R-ladder that we're not going to talk about right now. 00:21:50:04 - 00:21:51:23 Speaker 2 00:21:52:00 - 00:22:16:00 Speaker 1 But I wanted to just I mean, I'm watching time, Joe, and this conversation I could geek out on for a long, long time as as many could. But I think you know, one thing we haven't talked about that I think is really important is the role of technology and technological innovation in supporting hopefully the transition to a circular economy. 00:22:16:02 - 00:22:38:21 Speaker 1 Kenny Arnold, who's on the MacArthur team in the U.S., is is working with me on a sustainability consultant for iF Design and and submitted a piece to our trend report last year, which was about digital product passports and DPPs. And that's just one example. I've talked to supply chain blockchain people like, you know about ownership and all the rest of it. 00:22:38:23 - 00:22:48:15 Speaker 1 Those might just be two examples, but what is the role for technology in adoption of new technological innovations in in helping this transition? 00:22:48:17 - 00:23:17:15 Speaker 2 Yeah, well, you know, you mentioned digital product passports, tracking and tracing, things like that. All super relevant here. I'll mention about A.I., which I think is pretty underexplored in terms of the circular economy transition. I, I'm fascinated by the question, “Is nature designed?”. Because, you know, we often use the nature as as a bit of like I said, it's not a yardstick for our own economy or I do it and my colleagues do. 00:23:17:17 - 00:23:38:14 Speaker 2 And so I find it a nice provocation to say, is nature designed and well, not really according to our concept of design, which is, you know, it's quite piecemeal. It's sort of making decisions at a certain time. And then sort of moving on and and shipping something further down the line. If you looked at a plant growing up a wall, it would be designing. 00:23:38:14 - 00:24:08:03 Speaker 2 But within a sort of infinite range of inputs like ongoing inputs, sunlight, nutrition, wind, predators, the surface it’s growing on, the soil condition, the roots, the pollinators, the time of year. It’s taking in innumerable sources of data to make decisions about what it should do next. And we're not really capable of doing that. But I have been noodling on the idea of could we use A.I. to do that? 00:24:08:05 - 00:24:39:18 Speaker 2 Where we could because we're going to need to if we're going to launch product solutions into the world that we know we know is increasingly complex and hopefully is getting a bit more circular all the time, although current outlook is, you know, maybe, maybe not, but but hopefully the circular solution that I release tomorrow, the opportunity for that to become a bit more circular, a bit more regenerative in a week's time or a year's time may be different. 00:24:39:18 - 00:24:51:05 Speaker 2 So we're going to need a way of like handling feedback in a much more dynamic way. And I do wonder, maybe that's a question for for the listeners is is could I, could A.I. support with that? 00:24:51:07 - 00:25:10:23 Speaker 1 I love the provocation. I also have to ask like, are there incentives in play that are going to help the transition and what are those incentives and and kind of whose responsibility is it in this in this demand to transition? 00:25:11:00 - 00:25:14:12 Speaker 2 You mean incentives for for for customers or for... 00:25:14:14 - 00:25:24:17 Speaker 1 I think just for moving in this direction of a of circularity. I mean, whether it's corporate, whether it's governmental, whether it's organizational, whether it's consumer. 00:25:24:19 - 00:25:51:02 Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, other than the sort of master incentive of of of moving to an economy that works in the long term, I think the incentives will vary depending on the the the person who's hopefully inspired to and motivated to to move on the topic. I think it could be about developing a closer relationship with customers or unlocking a new sort of innovation paradigm. 00:25:51:04 - 00:26:28:16 Speaker 2 It could be about gaining a competitive advantage by cycling materials that you already bought and paid for or renting a product multiple times, so you don't have to keep making it which in a way you use new resources and energy. First, we've had, you know, student learners become inspired by this as as a sort of creative outlet, as an opportunity to, to stimulate their own sort of learning, their own research and endeavors rather than some of the more sort of guilt laden messaging that is traditionally associated with sustainability. 00:26:28:18 - 00:26:50:17 Speaker 2 For policymakers, it could be around a new, new types of skill jobs in the circular economy or delivering safer, healthier spaces for people to live and work. And so the incentives are abundant. It really depends on on on who you ask and and the opportunity they see in it. 00:26:50:19 - 00:27:00:13 Speaker 1 And I think that's a really nice kind of envelope to hold, which is like the incentives are actually the benefits. You know, it's it's is it's carrot, not stick. 00:27:00:19 - 00:27:18:22 Speaker 2 I think that's right. I think that's right. I mean, we you know, you can talk, you can talk stick. You can you can make, you can ban things. You can make buying new products more expensive than buying secondhand buy things like reducing taxation on repaired or refurbished goods. You know, that's sort of incentive as well. So for sure they're out there. 00:27:18:23 - 00:27:48:07 Speaker 2 But what really interests me is, is are are brands are designers, are are are politicians going to start creating a vision of a or a desire for for a better future, one where the future is better than today and is based on a different set of principles. So I think there's still so much room to be done of, Yeah, we do know the scale of the problem that we face. 00:27:48:07 - 00:28:04:19 Speaker 2 We hear about it every week. Unfortunately, many of us can can sort of see out the window. But let's let's let's ignite a bit more of a desire for for a better future rather than than just remind ourselves of the problem, which we know is really urgent. 00:28:04:21 - 00:28:29:23 Speaker 1 Well, that's a perfect tee up to the final question. I always ask guests, Joe, which is the question of, you know, zoom out, you know, next, 10 to 20, 20ish years, you know, imagine 2040, 2050. There's some big targets in the sustainable world around, you know, in climate change and such. But just from your own personal kind of hope and wish and passion and prayer. 00:28:29:23 - 00:28:33:08 Speaker 1 Like what, what's your greatest hope for circularity by then? 00:28:33:10 - 00:28:53:24 Speaker 2 Yeah, hey, I'm going to mention about traffic cone. So I was walking down my street a couple of years ago and I saw a traffic cone. There was no, like, workmen around. It was just it was this beat up like dirty traffic cone that someone has sort of forgotten about. But as I was walking past, I thought, you know, that's never going to become waste. 00:28:54:01 - 00:29:17:14 Speaker 2 Like, I mean, it will eventually, right? But but someone will will find this. And and because it's beautiful, I mean, the traffic cone is sort of a beautiful design, right? It has sort of universal meaning and interoperability. Another, another construction worker could pick it up put it on the back of their truck and say I'll use that because it has a sort of value and significance regardless of who owns it or where it shows up. 00:29:17:16 - 00:29:49:12 Speaker 2 And that's sort of what I want to see more of in in 2050 of I want to be seeing bits of, you know, reusable packaging that are sort of beat up and have a patina on them, people rocking their clothing that's got stitches and and and patches all over it because they've kept it in use for ages or, or, you know, people celebrating these different new methods of of making and using things whether that's growing their own food or or buying food 00:29:49:12 - 00:30:15:12 Speaker 2 that’s sort of regeneratively sourced or refillable packaging, things like that. I guess what I'm saying is I want circular economy solutions to by 2050 predominantly be the norm. It would be a sort of weird alternative to be buying that sort of linear single use destructive version. I want these sort of currently slightly sort of alternative quirky solutions that are sometimes in our current model, a bit harder to find. 00:30:15:14 - 00:30:22:09 Speaker 2 I want them to be the norm. I want them to be the dominant way of, of, of, of, of living your life. Really. 00:30:22:11 - 00:30:38:23 Speaker 1 Joe Isles of the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, Circular design expert and aficionado. That was excellent. I am I mean, I'm never going to look at a traffic cone in the same way. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Future of XYZ. 00:30:39:00 - 00:30:41:02 Speaker 2 Thanks, Lisa. I enjoyed it. 00:30:41:04 - 00:30:54:23 Speaker 1 Everyone watching and listening, you know where to find us. Make sure to leave us a five star review and check out the Ellen MacArthur Foundation's work at EllenMacArthur.org. Joe, thank you again. And we will see you all in two weeks time.