Latest / Ghost Cult Magazine Podcast / PODCAST: Episode 749: Steven Blush Celebrates 15 Year's of "American Hardcore" Documentary with Q and A Screenings

Transcript

PODCAST: Episode 749: Steven Blush Celebrates 15 Year's of "American Hardcore" Documentary with Q and A Screenings · Ghost Cult Magazine Podcast

0:02
What's up everybodyitskifi@ghostcultmag.com.
0:05
I'm honored today to be joined by Steve Blush.
0:07
You know his work best from American Hardcore and many other
0:10
things. Steve, how are you?
0:11
It's. A pleasure to be here.
0:13
How are you my man? I am so good this.
0:15
I've been looking forward to this for a long time.
0:17
Thank you for your patience with our recent technical issues
0:20
everyone has heard me complain about on the channel.
0:23
You know, American hardcore, really.
0:25
The book changed my life when it first came out.
0:27
My original copy is back east in storage at my partner's house
0:32
who owns Ghost Cult with me. But I have the new edition here
0:34
that you gratefully sent out to me and I'm so thankful and it's
0:38
so awesomely expanded and larger type for my old ass.
0:41
My glasses are here somewhere. I don't have them on but I feel
0:45
so lucky to get a new version of this and spend some time with it
0:48
and spend some time with you. Fantastic.
0:50
Well, it's American hardcore was a big part of my life, and
0:53
luckily it's been a big part of other people's lives, so it
0:57
really is very validating for me for sure.
1:00
Right on. You really were the first person
1:02
to document hardcore music the way you did.
1:06
And obviously the film also, which people can watch.
1:09
We'll link everything in the description where people can buy
1:11
your books, including American hardcore and watch the film and
1:14
all that. And you have a new series of
1:16
books that we're going to talk about in a second too, because I
1:18
want to make sure we promote that as well since that's what
1:21
you're working on currently. But this, it's not like a little
1:25
thing to say that part of the reason I got back into music
1:27
journalism, I got, I was a journalist and I had not really
1:31
ever pursued music. And I pursued music in part
1:33
because of your book. And I'd say Chuck Klosterman was
1:37
really important to me for a time and just so many others.
1:42
And then the classics, right, All the classic documentarians.
1:45
I always was a little nerd, whatever it was, especially
1:47
about music. I I couldn't absorb enough
1:50
things. And I always say growing up in
1:52
New York City, I'm from the Bronx in New York, I wasn't a
1:54
hardcore kid. I was hardcore adjacent kid
1:56
because I was a metal head and a Oh well, I, I was a theater nerd
2:00
and you got beat up repeatedly for, you know, on my block.
2:04
But I had friends. I got into junior high school
2:06
and high school with friends that loved hardcore.
2:09
And that's when I really developed an appreciation for my
2:11
first show ever. That was a Sunday matinee.
2:13
Hardcore show was burn and mucky pop at CBG BS in 87 And I, I met
2:19
my friends at the Cube on Astor Place and everybody knows that's
2:23
where you meet everybody at the Cube before pagers, cell phones,
2:25
e-mail, social media, whatever. You just hoped people would show
2:29
up and you made plans. And I was wearing like my
2:31
Injustice for All shirt with my dumb long hair that I never cut.
2:35
And my friends freaked. They're like, you're going to
2:37
get killed if you go to this show with your hair out.
2:40
This is like a year before we were all cool.
2:43
I think Crossover hadn't quite hit New York City yet just yet.
2:46
There were still some bands emerging, but tucked my hair in
2:50
under my hoodie, pulled my hoodie tight like Kenny from
2:53
South Park, zipped up the hoodie, stood in a corner and
2:56
watched people just pummel each other.
2:58
This incredible music, and I want to start here.
3:01
The number one thing for me about hardcore has always been
3:04
most importantly community, because metal heads, we've been
3:07
gatekeepers, we've been arms folded in the back and very
3:11
severe subgenres and subgenre hatred between us even to this
3:14
day. But hardcore always felt to me
3:16
like very accepting and they and when even after it was cool and
3:20
I wasn't scared to go to shows anymore.
3:21
People like, he's not hardcore, but he's cool.
3:24
We accept you, You know, a lot about guitars and shit.
3:26
Cool. You play in a band, cool
3:28
hardcore guys in hardcore bands. Saw my metal band and they were
3:31
like, you guys are all right, OK, cool.
3:33
We like some of the same things. So I always thought like the
3:36
number one thing was these this hardscrabble genre and people,
3:41
tough, resilient people from tough places and hard
3:44
upbringings, but were not full of, you know, a lot of rage, but
3:48
also a lot of love, which is really shocking for a person
3:52
that likes hard music. Sure.
3:54
Well, it was a sense of community.
3:57
I think that was the most important thing about it.
3:59
A lot of us came from either broken or dysfunctional
4:03
families. And I, I certainly found my
4:05
family within the hardcore scene.
4:09
I think that's what was so important for me to write about.
4:11
It was that it was, it was more than just music.
4:14
It was a way of life. And everybody who I knew, you
4:20
know, I knew people who were doctorates in, in their
4:24
education and I knew people who didn't graduate from junior high
4:27
school. And we, we all kind of got
4:30
along. And that was really deep.
4:33
And it's something that's still very deep.
4:36
And it was such a radical musical seat at the time, as is
4:41
why it still stands so strong today.
4:43
It was never compromised by the record companies.
4:47
You know, there was no rush of sightings of the next Agnostic
4:52
Front in 1989, you know, or than or or even the at the new Black
5:00
Flag in 1984, you know, so that's why it stands so stands
5:07
so strong today, because it was so radical.
5:11
And I'm really part glad to have been part of that radicalism and
5:17
to bring it forward as a word you used earlier with the book
5:25
and with the film. And they were both incredibly
5:28
successful. And, and I think they were
5:30
incredibly successful because we spoke to people.
5:33
I spoke to people in a real way. I wasn't using big words.
5:38
I wasn't trying to impress you with my journalism.
5:42
In fact, I, in my musical, my writing experience was in high
5:48
school failing English. And I would love to see that
5:52
teacher again. And I'd love to run into them
5:55
and tell, you know, tell them that I've had a, a successful
5:58
writing career for the past 30 plus years.
6:01
So I, it's just a very important story that needed to be told and
6:09
I was the first one to tell it. I don't know if I'm that's luck
6:14
or just someone who is so clued in on hardcore and I looked at
6:20
everything through my hardcore eyes.
6:23
You know, there were bands like Black Flag and Corrosion
6:28
conformity and bands like that who grew their hair as like a
6:31
fuck you to the conformity. And I was certainly one of those
6:35
kind of people. So and I love the crossover.
6:40
I love the crossover. I thought that was like the most
6:42
important music. I mean, that point where
6:46
Metallica and Slayer are meeting the Chromeags and Agnostic
6:50
Front, I mean, that's, that was deep.
6:53
That was an incredible time, time and place in music history
6:57
and it that is what still stands today.
7:01
Right on, and I'll throw in Anthrax.
7:02
They're also not just because of SOD, but they were huge punk
7:05
heads, especially Scott and Charlie love the punk rock and
7:09
put it as part of everything they did and they felt a
7:11
kinship. And I think that's help kind of
7:14
smooth things over. Like I said, I went from like
7:16
the fall of 87, scared to death of maybe getting killed at a
7:20
show to like a year later, sneaking into the Ritz for SOD
7:24
and Exodus. And like it seemed normal and
7:26
everybody was there was like a big melting pot and nobody was
7:29
too scary to talk to or say what's up to or or make friends.
7:33
And I think that's been the lasting thing in my life about
7:37
punk rock again, is the bonds, those those bonds that don't
7:40
break. And metal hasn't always had
7:42
that. And I'm person that calls that
7:44
out also. And I have, you know, I think
7:48
the longer you do journalism, you kind of see things come
7:52
around again, right? You see a resurgence of things.
7:54
So it's really gratifying to me to see so many people love these
7:58
neo crossover bands and the old school bands.
8:00
I'm a huge COC person all eras and I miss Reed Mullen so much.
8:06
That dude was a giant of. Punk rock.
8:09
A giant of punk rock, not just the COC that everybody knows now
8:12
and remembers for the last 30 plus years.
8:14
But yeah, it's really cool. 15th anniversary of American
8:18
hardcore, by the way. Now in was it 66 language
8:21
printings, bigger type. Like I said, for my bad eyes.
8:25
Thank you. And no more squinting.
8:29
A lot of people I get sent books, luckily to review.
8:31
And I used to do professional book reviewing as well as film
8:34
reviewing on top of metal and punk stuff.
8:36
But I always I'm like, could you send me the book?
8:38
Because I spend so much time on these screens.
8:40
I'd love to just get away with a book and and, you know, sit in
8:44
my chair and read and not the screen.
8:47
It's getting to be too much. But I love the physical, you
8:50
know, I love ephemera and, and just for the in the 1st place
8:53
American hardcore really documented the scene, the shows,
8:57
what things looked like, who was there, just wild shit antics.
9:03
You know, there's been some great, I've been lucky enough to
9:05
meet some great photographers, a lot of the great ones associated
9:08
with the early punk from New York City, like Tom Hearn from
9:12
Punk magazine and stuff like that.
9:14
I've been fortunate to meet and talk to and interview.
9:17
But I think like really the like there's a sociopolitical thing
9:22
here. There's a a rawness, especially
9:26
LA, New York and the big bergs, the big cities where the punk
9:30
scenes developed there and it wasn't quite yet all over middle
9:34
America. It was really, you know, like an
9:37
urban thing. Like it was like displaced kids
9:41
in squats also getting to make music, which was their escape in
9:46
a lot of ways. If you look at, you know, Roger
9:49
Murad and Vinny Stigma and Freddie Man, Paul and my whole
9:52
crew of people, Crow Mags, Harley Crow Mag and people like
9:55
that, which is great. I love the photo.
9:57
Harley on the back. His documentary is coming out,
9:59
by the way. I'll plug that.
10:00
Actually, I don't know if he had a chance to see it, but it's.
10:03
I'm going to, yeah. It's really great.
10:05
It really is a a touching portrait of one of the most
10:11
intense people I've ever met. He has had an amazing life and I
10:15
it's like hard to believe some of these dudes are around and,
10:18
and, and ladies and they them's and amazing that they're still
10:23
here. Because, you know, it's very
10:26
possible they could not, you know, would not have lived out
10:28
of childhood if if not for punk rock and the punk rock community
10:31
taking care of them for you. Looking back now at 15 years on
10:35
with the book and the RE, you know, the new additions is
10:40
there's things specifically that you felt just got left out
10:43
because of time. I'm always marvel.
10:45
I want to write a book so badly, but I would have to almost like
10:48
eliminate every other thing from my life to focus enough to do
10:52
it. That's just a remark on myself,
10:54
but I'm so in awe of anybody that's been able to put down
10:57
their words. Was, you know, when you finished
10:59
it, were you like, oh, this isn't done, but I have to get it
11:02
done? Was it one of those situations
11:03
and that's why there's other things to put in?
11:06
Yeah, well, I mean, the first edition came came out in 2001
11:12
and that was kind of pre Internet, you know, and it
11:18
wasn't like you called up information and asked for the
11:21
number of Joey Shithead, was it? You know, it didn't work like
11:24
that. So I I knew a lot of these
11:29
bands. I was my role in the scene in
11:33
Washington DC at the time was as the kid promoter and I booked
11:40
Black Flag and Dead Kennedys and Minor Threat and Bad Brains and
11:46
Circle Jerks and Suicidal and you know, all these bands, you
11:51
know, and half of them crashed on my couch.
11:54
And because of that we had AI was able to get to all these
11:58
people because I would describe it almost like being in the
12:01
Army. You have this connection that
12:04
never ends. You could pick, you could not
12:06
see each other for 20 years and pick up a conversation like it
12:09
was yesterday. And that was the basis of how I
12:14
wrote the 1st edition of the book.
12:17
The second edition of the book came out a little bit, you know,
12:22
5-10 years after the film. And through the film, you know,
12:29
it kind of hit a hit, a kind of mainstream popularity.
12:35
We went to the Sundance Film Festival.
12:38
We, you know, hung out with actors and directors and some of
12:44
the biggest names in the business.
12:46
And like, I'm, I remember this one time right before our
12:51
initial premiere at Sundance, I'm drinking with Wim Wenders,
12:55
the, the, the director. And he's going, he puts his arm
12:58
around me. He goes, you know, Steve, you
13:00
know, when you're making a movie and this happens and that
13:04
happens. And I'm like, oh, yeah, sure.
13:06
And I'm like, I had no idea what the guy's even talking about
13:09
because it was just like, me and Paul Rachman making this film,
13:14
you know, in my living room, right?
13:16
You know, half those interviews were shot in front of my record
13:19
collection, you know? So it was really raw, really
13:25
independent and just like the book, just like the scene.
13:32
So the fact that the film is still matters.
13:36
I'm doing a screening in Woodstock, NY in about 10 days.
13:42
I'm going to be doing them all around the country.
13:46
So be on the be on the lookout for that this fall.
13:53
So I, I just felt like I had certain connections after the
13:59
film and the rise of the Internet and the ability to
14:04
reach a lot of people who I hadn't reached before.
14:07
And there were a few mistakes that I needed to, to address
14:13
because, you know, people's I would, I was going in pretty
14:17
much exclusively on people's memories and what they're
14:20
telling me, but some of their memories weren't quite right,
14:24
you know, So that's OK. You know, so those are all the
14:29
reasons that you, you ended up seeing the second edition that
14:32
we sent you because it was, it just needed to be addressed.
14:37
And there's even talk of a third edition, so 'cause there's even
14:42
more to tell, 'cause there are tons of people who I did not
14:45
interview for the book either edition there.
14:49
There is so much more information on the Internet.
14:53
There are so many more archives that have been unearthed.
14:58
So, you know, that's all in the making in my life.
15:03
You know, when they bury me, I'm going to be known as the guy who
15:05
wrote American Hardcore, you know, so I could live with that.
15:10
I've done all these other projects.
15:12
I'm on my 8th book coming out. I have a trilogy coming out.
15:17
Well, I already wrote two parts of the trilogy.
15:20
It was 1 was called when When Rock Met Disco.
15:25
Then When Rock met Reggae and coming out in November is when
15:29
rock met hip hop. And it's not about disco or
15:34
reggae or hip hop. It's about how it crossed over
15:37
to rock music and how it crossed over to the rock community.
15:41
So when we're talking about when rock met hip hop, we're talking
15:45
about bringing the noise with Anthrax and Public Enemy, we're
15:49
talking about the early Beastie Boys, we're talking about Walk
15:53
This Way with Run DMC and Aerosmith we're talking about.
15:58
Biohazard and Onyx doing SLAM, we're talking about Helmet and
16:03
House of Pain doing Judgement night.
16:05
We're talking about even the the new the new metal, which is a
16:11
total confluence of rock and hip hop.
16:14
So my ideas are flowing. They're usually like 10 years
16:21
ahead of the time. That's a both a blessing and a
16:25
curse, but it all it's keeping me in my old age, very relevant.
16:32
So I'm I'm pretty proud of that. And the fact that we're here
16:35
talking today is a real validation of that.
16:39
Right on last to unpack. Thank you so much for all that.
16:42
By the way, my other podcast, the Glacially Musical podcast is
16:46
doing Beastie Boys right now as a series.
16:48
It's mostly metal and rock, but we were like, let's do Beastie
16:51
Boys and we did a whole episode on the early form, you know, the
16:55
new Aborigines and, and Cookie Puss and she's on it and, and
16:59
Crush groove and all these things.
17:00
And they played with all the big hardcore bands.
17:04
They were a very legitimate hardcore band.
17:07
People don't really quite remember it, but they were.
17:11
And they continue to keep like Eggman in their set list until
17:14
they stopped playing, which was fun.
17:16
And you know, and even, you know, obviously the huge
17:20
influence of being taken under the wing of of Minor Threat and
17:24
Bad Brains was hugely impactful on them as people,
17:28
humanitarianism and activism, things that again come from this
17:33
rebellion music that punk rock is.
17:36
So that's I appreciate you unpacking all that out of
17:38
curiosity, because again, I know you said most of this is
17:40
dependent on you interviewed so many people for the book and all
17:44
the books. How's your were you a straight
17:46
edge kid? Because your your recall is
17:48
pretty amazing from what you witnessed.
17:50
I know you had the Zine and and book shows and we're there
17:53
living it for for real living it in the DC scene, but were you
17:57
like your recall is pretty amazing, I have to say, just as
18:00
a reader. Well, I never did hard drugs,
18:04
you know, and I think that's the one thing that saved me, you
18:07
know? But did I smoke weed?
18:10
Yeah, for 30 years. I mean, did I drink?
18:15
Probably not as much as some people, but certainly wasn't was
18:21
never really that much of interest to me.
18:23
Hanging out with the Bad Brains certainly got me smoke in the
18:26
ganja. But now that it's legal, it's
18:30
doesn't really mean anything anymore.
18:33
It's not very exciting. So, so I would say that I never
18:38
did anything that would do long term damage to me, but the
18:46
straight edge thing just didn't really speak to me either
18:49
because just didn't seem like a way to live.
18:54
Plus there was this thing with straight edge which was don't
18:59
drink, don't smoke, don't fuck. And you know, I kind of by the
19:05
time I was 16/17/18, I definitely gained an
19:09
appreciation of women, you know, big time.
19:12
And you know, that another book I did right after when American
19:17
hardcore was American hair metal.
19:19
And you know, I kind of like lost some of my hardcore friends
19:24
over it, but it was something that I was living.
19:28
I was, I was meeting beautiful women during the days of the big
19:33
haired bands. And no regrets, no regrets.
19:39
You know that those women taught me more than a lot of the guys
19:45
did in hardcore, in subways. Well noted.
19:49
Well noted. We all had that moment.
19:50
We all discovered. It's like I'm watching this kiss
19:53
video, but look at these babes. Oh my God.
19:56
And I'm sure my many friends attracted to men saw the men in
20:00
in these video. You know, like, you know, we
20:02
joke a lot about poison was a beautiful bunch of chicks and I
20:06
saw on the album cover and then I was like, oh, they're dudes.
20:09
Wow, I was fooled. Hardcore, but no pun intended.
20:14
But yeah, you know, listen, you're a documentary of of music
20:17
and scenes and fandoms and and culture.
20:20
And I think that's the important thing that leaves me with
20:22
talking to you is that that's what your mission has always
20:25
been. It it happened to be hardcore
20:27
because you were part of it. But I think it's important that
20:29
we have these people to document these subcultures in the world
20:34
that affect humanity, art, things like that.
20:37
Politics which we're now seeing as we get older and older are
20:42
all intertwined. That's they're not, there's not
20:44
siloed. I know people are like, can't
20:46
you just keep the politics out of punk rock?
20:47
Actually, no. Have you come listening?
20:51
To the words and and I don't begrudge people who change or
20:54
you know, like, oh, that's not me anymore.
20:56
Or you know, you know, second and third wave dudes, you know,
21:01
they've like renounced their former ways or the straight edge
21:04
folks like we're a little too not only so extreme for their
21:07
own values, but as keepers of that sort of ethos against
21:12
anyone who was like against them was a very also kind of a
21:16
terrifying. That's when the violence came
21:18
back again. When it was newly terrifying.
21:20
It was like, oh, that's uncool. I think I'm going to skip that
21:23
Earth crisis show, lest I get punch the fuck out for talking
21:26
about hot dogs. Feel like a bastard.
21:30
I love animals. But yeah, it's it's so cool.
21:33
I mean, you had so much cool stuff in in the original book
21:36
and the new book. I'm I've been just kind of like
21:38
paging through it and and taking it in and and appreciating it so
21:42
much. The new version, obviously,
21:45
again, like like most documentarians, I think about
21:47
Drew Stone, who's a friend to the show.
21:49
Also people who collect these ephemera, right?
21:53
Like you, you had, I'm sure your own collection of stuff.
21:55
I don't know if things lasted from your youth when you were
21:58
booking shows to when you, you know, later on, but just some.
22:03
Do you have like an an iconic photograph in your mind that's
22:06
in the book That is like if you had to tell somebody alien came
22:09
down and was like, let me tell you about this punk rock and you
22:11
showed them this photo. Is there a photo in your mind?
22:14
I have one in my mind, but is there one in your mind?
22:18
Yeah, it's not really in the book.
22:20
I have a lot of photographs by Edward Culver, who is the
22:23
original LA punk photographer and he's the one who did the
22:26
cover of the Black Flag Damaged album.
22:30
And I would say that that cover is about the most intense record
22:34
cover like ever made and and the most intense record ever made
22:41
from the most intense band there ever was.
22:45
Henry Rollins was like getting punished every single night
22:51
going out there and he was fighting with the crowd and
22:54
people are setting his balls on fire and, you know, pulling the
22:58
the hairs off his legs and sucker punching him.
23:01
And you know, that's why he's such a standoffish kind of guy.
23:05
I mean, I will never take anything away from Henry
23:09
Rollins. I mean I I've grown apart from
23:14
him but I will defend him till I die because I watched him first
23:20
hand handle the most unreal stuff I've ever seen in a rock
23:25
scenario. Nice.
23:29
I've been lucky enough to see Henry in person, both with
23:33
Rollins Band and his spoken word storytelling stuff.
23:37
Just immense admiration. I know.
23:39
I think, I feel like he's very misunderstood and I think
23:41
people, what they don't understand is that like it was
23:45
surreal for him to even be in that band.
23:47
That was his favorite band. That was his first band.
23:50
That was the first music he ever cared about that was significant
23:54
to him. And then he got to be in that
23:56
band. And like you, I don't even know
23:58
if that's happened to other people.
24:01
Like Dio wasn't thinking about being in Black Sabbath till they
24:03
fired Ozzy and they asked him. Like, you know, that doesn't
24:06
happen where you get to be the singer of the band you grew up
24:09
in love with. Like, that's insane.
24:11
And, and you, you know, people don't understand how to put
24:14
themselves into his shoes, or maybe they can't.
24:18
I think he's been a wonderful spokesperson for punk and I'm
24:21
very excited. I know you've done some stuff
24:23
with the Punk Museum, the Punk Rock Museum in Vegas.
24:26
Shout out to Fat Mike, former interviewee for us who gave me a
24:31
hard time about being a metalhead, by the way.
24:32
And I was like, I like punk a lot, man.
24:34
I'm very knowledgeable about my punk rock, man.
24:36
Don't hurt me. My favorite punk album is *
24:39
today by Gorilla Biscuits. I think that's pretty legit,
24:41
man. Like I said, offline and Walter
24:43
is like my Jesus is a songwriter and.
24:46
By the way, just to say, to reiterate that Walter Streifels
24:51
is one of the coolest guys I know in the music scene.
24:54
And he's the bad. So many bands and they've all
24:58
been good. And you can't, can't emphasize
25:03
how difficult that is to pull off, you know, to have, you
25:08
know, four or five bands that all really matter, you know, and
25:14
you know, I, I've known him for a long time and just maximum
25:18
respect. Right on, no notes.
25:21
Perfect. Love the guy by the way.
25:24
Not to put you on the spot but I'm compelled to since we're
25:27
talking about Black Flag. Have you seen the Black Flag
25:31
tour footage from Europe as we're recording this in mid
25:35
June. I did and I was pretty sad I saw
25:38
Black Flag. Just to preface this, no knock
25:39
on Greg. Lot of bands are out there with
25:41
no original members. You have a brand and a band and
25:44
a responsibility. It's always been his band.
25:47
Keep putting the band out, keep putting a new line about tour.
25:49
Wouldn't you know good do what you do because he surely didn't
25:53
make a lot of money back in the day 40 years ago.
25:55
So do what you do. But I saw them last summer at No
25:59
Values Fest, which was amazing. And the former bandmates he had,
26:03
they put on a phenomenal show. And Mike, shout out to Mike
26:05
Leahley, who is a dead ringer for Rollins vocally and loves
26:09
Rollins and loves the band. Same thing, his band he grew up
26:12
skating to. I saw the videos and I don't
26:15
want to knock the players because they're kids because
26:17
that's not fair because I think it's a great experience for
26:21
them. But I was just like baffled that
26:23
he did that. He picked such anonymous new
26:26
young musicians to play with him.
26:29
What did you have a take on that at all?
26:30
At all? Yeah, I did see the footage of
26:32
his show in Bulgaria. I was.
26:37
All I could really think of is that Greg Ginn is always been
26:42
about fucking with the crowd, you know?
26:44
Always. You know, he was, he would wear
26:48
Grateful Dead T-shirts to at the shows he would the opening tapes
26:53
for before they would go on stage would be like ZZ Top
27:00
Eliminator and Heaven and Hell by Black Sabbath.
27:05
They grew their hair down to their asses, you know?
27:08
After that he did an instrumental band called Gone,
27:12
you know, you know, without a singer.
27:15
So I, I believe that he didn't want to bring back any of these
27:21
old guys. He didn't want to.
27:23
There's a band called Flag, which is pretty incredible if
27:27
you ask me, with great with Keith Morris singing and Chuck
27:31
Dukowski playing bass and Steven Eggerton on guitar from the
27:36
descendants and they play Black Flag note for note and they're
27:42
incredible. They're really like an
27:44
incredible band. I watched the Black Flag stuff
27:51
with the girl singer and the and the new band, three of the four
27:56
members, probably all underage 25.
27:59
And I don't know if it was any good.
28:04
I mean, I didn't think it was particularly great, but I would
28:07
give it a chance. I, I would go see it.
28:10
I, I just love his, you know, Black Flag was almost like a
28:14
cult, you know, you're a member of a cult following this band.
28:20
I was certainly a member of the cult.
28:24
I saw the band, I think 22 times, you know, and saw him
28:31
with three different singers, probably about 10 different
28:37
members, but I liked every one of them.
28:43
And but I can't think that there's some method to the
28:50
madness and I'm willing to give it some time.
28:54
Fair play, fair play, Greg. Always subverting expectations,
28:57
including ours, so no worries. And again, I am absolutely not
29:01
knocking these young players he picked to be with him.
29:04
They're out there playing their asses off.
29:06
They're trying, they're doing what they do and they're with
29:09
Greg. So like, I'm not in Black Flag.
29:13
I've played in some very, you know, bands I love but were
29:16
forgotten. And I appreciate that.
29:18
Anybody who wants to get out there at almost 70 years old
29:21
still and do stuff, go do what you do.
29:24
I mean, you know, go do what you do.
29:26
I'm just thinking about a little bit forward today.
29:30
There's so many hardcore influenced their hardcore
29:33
adjacent bands today that we can see the fingerprints of the
29:38
early great New York and LA and every other scene.
29:41
Hardcore bands, your turnstiles, you're knocked loose, getting
29:45
Grammy Awards and opening for Metallica next year.
29:48
And Code Orange started as a hardcore band.
29:50
Code Orange Kids and and, and, and the new metal bands with the
29:55
hardcore influence and the metal bands with the hardcore
29:57
influence. Are you surprised at all that a
30:01
band like Turnstile or Scowl can breakthrough to real mainstream
30:05
success? And do you think it's fair to
30:07
judge them the same way we used to judge the other bands?
30:10
Like, oh, they're sellouts, I got a Taco Bell.
30:12
Yeah, you know what? I, I get this question a lot and
30:15
I, I give it up for Turnstile and scowl on those bands.
30:20
I mean, they're playing hardcore like they think it should be
30:24
played. And, and I'm not going to be a
30:27
gatekeeper and tell them they can't do it.
30:29
And I'm not going to be a purist and tell them what they do is
30:32
not valid because that's not true.
30:34
They're, that is music from the heart.
30:36
As long as you're making music from the heart, you're not doing
30:38
bullshit ballads. You know, I, I, I, I'm, I'm all
30:42
for it. You know, in fact, my daughter
30:46
is 13 years old and she's a guitar player and she sent me
30:51
for my Father's Day card. And she was like, thank you for
30:54
making me hate balance, you know, And I was like, right on,
31:00
right on. You know, if, if, if I'm if
31:03
American hardcore destroys the power ballad, then it's been a
31:08
good thing. Well worth it.
31:11
There you go Somewhere Nazareth is crying.
31:14
Somebody's got that K tell ballad.
31:16
So the 80's the 4th song on every record, always the ballad.
31:21
Everyone knows, everyone knows. Even if you were, you know, like
31:24
I hate that shit. Actually secretly loving that
31:26
shit because you know, if you wanted to meet anybody else that
31:28
was interesting. They liked all that music, but
31:31
it's the same thing We always, we get, we do gatekeep
31:34
selectively here. That's awesome, though.
31:36
That's an awesome story about your kid.
31:37
That's great. Yeah.
31:39
I, you know, we just covered Turnstile in Grease.
31:41
They played it in amphitheater by themselves an evening with
31:44
for their, you know, just like 20 songs themselves.
31:47
You know, I met Scowl. The members of Scowl were in a
31:50
bunch of true school hardcore bands for 10 years, slugging it
31:55
out in the Bay Area, getting in a van like you always do,
31:58
touring up and down the coast, encroaching into the Midwest in
32:02
the South. And then they formed a scowl and
32:05
then they kind of took off. But even now, you know, like the
32:09
backlash is not it's I feel like it's unfair.
32:12
The songs are good, the artistry is there.
32:14
And as long as they're not fake about it or like, I don't
32:18
actually like it, you know, I don't really like hardcore and
32:20
then make hardcore music. That would be weird trying to be
32:23
ironic and and aloof, but I think that they're real people.
32:26
Like I said, I got to meet and hang out with Scowl and their
32:28
members that were really cool and they had the the pedigree.
32:32
And I think that's important if you Turnstile has the pedigree,
32:35
you know, So I think that's really important.
32:38
And I feel very fortunate just to to go to another level, which
32:41
is that we have people still documenting today.
32:44
So there's another tomorrow. There will be tomorrow's Steve
32:48
and Kifi who are out there checking out bands and
32:51
documenting their scene and interviewing people.
32:56
Who do you think is maybe an underrated band that never got,
32:59
as you know, widely respected as they should?
33:01
Not certainly financially popular or successful or
33:04
millions of records, but who is a great band that maybe people
33:07
don't know it well enough that you could recommend?
33:10
Well, the band that always kind of was, they were really big on
33:14
the West Coast, but they never really transcended on a national
33:17
level, and I think that's still the case today.
33:20
Is TSOL true? Sounds of Liberty.
33:25
That was always like a band that was like reinventing themselves
33:28
every record. They were they were almost like
33:31
too smart for their own good. And they were also the most
33:36
violent band next to Black Flag that I'd ever seen.
33:40
Jack Grisham was was a frightening singer.
33:44
I mean, he would, these guys were like 6 foot 5 surfers and
33:48
they would kick ass. And again, they didn't really
33:53
translate on a national or an international level.
33:57
They're still, they've made a comeback and it's still very
34:01
provincial, you know, very much California, mostly Southern
34:06
California and you're the West Coast.
34:11
That was, that was West Coast hardcore.
34:14
They defined it. And it's the band I still love.
34:19
I, I, I'll put them up against anyone.
34:24
Me too. Everybody knows what a big fan I
34:26
am. I I gushed over interviewing
34:28
Jack. It was marvelous.
34:29
And they're still very relevant and defiant.
34:32
Great band. Their last album kicks all kinds
34:34
of ass. I highly recommend it.
34:36
And there's a great R&B cover on there because he's like, I'm
34:38
going to try my voice every other which way because no one
34:41
else is. Let me try it.
34:42
I thought that was wonderful by him to continue to grow and
34:45
evolve. And then so let's take it
34:47
forward to this current trilogy of new books.
34:49
What did you learn as from American hardcore and other like
34:53
runs at it and and expansions and and revisions?
34:57
When you wrote your next series of books or this recent series
35:00
of books, what did you take away?
35:02
What are some takeaways you learned as a writer and a you
35:05
know, as a documentary and a researcher?
35:07
Oh, I've, well, I've really refined myself as a writer.
35:12
I've really become a good writer.
35:14
I think American hardcore, the first version was a little
35:17
choppy because I wasn't a great writer.
35:21
I was a good writer with a lot of important facts.
35:26
I think I became a really good writer on that.
35:29
That second edition that you pointed to earlier, after
35:35
American Hardcore and American Hair metal, I did a book called
35:39
Lost Rockers about great musicians who fell through the
35:42
cracks of history. I wrote an encyclopedic book
35:46
called New York Rock, which is the whole history of New York
35:50
Rock, from the rise of the Velvet Underground to the fall
35:53
of CBG BS. I wrote a sports book about
35:58
Billie Jean King in the original world, Team Tennis, which again
36:01
was just so radical. This idea of men and women
36:05
playing on the same court, getting the same pay, playing
36:09
against each other, playing a team sport, what in this very
36:13
individualized kind of world. But the trilogy is really
36:21
important to me, not just to write like the Harry Potter kind
36:27
of trilogy of of Rock'n'roll, but just refining myself as a
36:34
writer. Like when I'm talking about when
36:35
Rock met Disco, I'm not really telling the story of Disco.
36:39
I'm to talking about like when Kiss did I Was Made for Loving
36:43
You or when the Rod Stewart, Do you think I'm sexy or The
36:52
Rolling Stones doing miss you or the Grateful Dead going disco,
36:56
disco Dead, as they used to be called their dirty little
37:01
secret. But how like those bands were
37:04
actually really good at it because disco in general was the
37:07
music of studio musicians. And here you had, you know,
37:11
really seasoned veteran musicians playing together and,
37:16
and making songs that are, you know, still popular today.
37:20
Like, I mean, if you played I was made for loving you, you
37:24
know, people wouldn't laugh anymore.
37:27
You know, people would be like throwing bricks at you in 1979.
37:33
And, you know, so that was an interesting one to me.
37:37
The the story of when rock met reggae is really the story of
37:43
punk rock. It's really the story of the
37:45
Clash and the Sex Pistols and all those Billy Idol.
37:49
They were all like reggae fans, you know, the Brit, the British
37:52
were reggae fans in general. But if you listen to if you have
37:58
conversations with them or you listen to them, they all have
38:00
like they all have reggae songs and they all, you know, come
38:06
back to that. So, and I think I talked about
38:10
when rock MIT hip hop, which is my book coming out in November,
38:15
which I'm going to be this is really promoting that hard.
38:19
Is is the story of the bands we talked about before, Run DMC and
38:23
Aerosmith, Public Enemy and Anthrax, all the early Beastie
38:31
Boys, it Rage Against the machine, Red Hot Chili Peppers
38:36
to new metal, you know, so it's a it's an incredible story.
38:43
It's not the story of it's not the story of hip hop.
38:46
It's the story of how this music crossed over.
38:49
So I'm, I'm really proud of it and I really hope everyone will
38:54
support that one because I think it's a really important book.
39:00
I'm so into it and really a huge part of my life, all these
39:03
things, especially the like I remember in my formative band
39:08
days trying to explain to people like, do you think the like the
39:11
Pantera guys listen to hip hop? I was like, not at all or barely
39:15
maybe like what's popular, you know, in the late 80s, early 90s
39:18
they listened to so you know, West Coast rap and East Coast
39:21
rap. But I was like, actually what
39:23
they are listening to, what you're hearing when you hear
39:25
Pantera do that half time beat. They got that from CRO Mags.
39:29
They got that from Biohazard. Simpletura got that from
39:31
Agnostic Front. Well, big time, you know, you
39:35
you brought up Aerosmith Anthrax a few times and just like to
39:40
kind of give it up to Scott Ian because he really was a punk
39:45
rock fan. He wasn't, he was a music fan,
39:47
you know, he was like, he was more, far more sophisticated
39:51
than his band, you know, and I'm not saying that his band wasn't
39:55
sophisticated because they were one of the most important metal
39:58
bands of all time, you know, but.
40:02
He is like a scholar of music. You know, I, I kind of can, I
40:07
like him as a person and I can kind of consider him an equal
40:11
for to what I do. I mean, but he does it with a
40:13
guitar and just a really important character.
40:20
The rise of music. I mean, you think about the the
40:23
mosh, bringing the mosh pit to the heavy metal crowd to teaming
40:30
up with Public Enemy. I mean like that and all their
40:34
albums, that covers a lot of territory, you know?
40:37
So that's a really important band that, you know, sometimes
40:43
people say Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth even, but you know, you
40:49
got to go with the BIG4. Yeah, I try to tell people the
40:52
Big Four as a label, which I think it was just, yes, as we're
40:56
recording, this was just the anniversary of the very first
40:59
official BIG4 show that was in Poland.
41:03
But super interesting that yeah, Anthrax kind of does get a
41:07
little overlooked or clowned on, I think because they had a sense
41:10
of humor, because they weren't strictly about Satan or serial
41:13
killers or evil, but they were actually very literate, very
41:18
political, very interesting comparatively to the other BIG4
41:22
bands and even the big whatever you want to say, the top 10 or
41:25
15 classic thrash bands that probably everybody knows if I
41:29
rattle them off. But yeah, Anthrax usually
41:31
important, usually important to me.
41:32
I'm from the Bronx, NY Frank and Charlie are from the Bronx, NY
41:36
few neighborhoods away from me and I will say yeah, I'm super
41:42
excited about this When rock met hip hop and I think it's
41:46
definitely like relevant as much today as ever actually and super
41:53
excited to talk to you as biohazard released their
41:55
comeback song with their classic lineup and first new song in
41:59
like 10 something years. So I'm.
42:00
Evan Stein, Evan Seinfeld's In the book, he's another
42:03
character. Have to be.
42:04
Scott's in the book, you know, So, so, yeah, I don't mean to
42:09
interrupt, but this is a great, this is a great.
42:13
It's a great period of music. You know, it's really like even
42:18
like it was kind of like during the alternative revolution.
42:21
So it kind of the critics kind of, you know, scoffed at it a
42:25
little bit. But it's the music of today.
42:28
I mean, I can't say Linkin Park or System of a Down are my
42:37
favorite bands, but you know, those two bands, Limp Bizkit
42:41
Corn and, you know, System of a Down and Linkin Park, those are
42:49
like the that's the big four of today.
42:53
I would throw in early Deftones also before they kind of before
42:56
they kind of went off in a post rock Cure vein, the early
43:00
Deftone stuff, first three albums to, you know, Adrenaline
43:04
to White Pony, lot of great rap metal and new metal there.
43:07
And I'm cute, like surely a lot of hip hop influence.
43:11
They were the first band to like they had a DJ the whole way but
43:14
he wasn't on a member of the band till the 2nd record.
43:17
But he's on that whole first record.
43:18
Frank Delgado. So super interesting.
43:21
Incubus is a band that came out of new metal, you know,
43:24
obviously other bands along the way.
43:26
You mentioned Chili's Fake No More had a huge rap influence
43:30
with Mike Patton and Rest in Peace.
43:32
Chuck Mosley and that band with their killer rhythm section.
43:35
What a great band. Rap rhythms no more.
43:37
What a great, great band they were.
43:39
Yeah, hoping they're going to come back.
43:41
It's like, I don't think so. It seems bleaker and bleaker.
43:44
But just as we wrap this up, I mean, you have been wonderfully
43:47
generous with your time and your it is the evening where you are
43:50
probably. And it, you know, I'm just very
43:53
thankful to talk to you. This is amazing.
43:54
I could talk to you all day long, but let me ask you 2 last
43:58
questions. One is, and I'm sure you've been
44:00
asked this one, what is your favorite hardcore record ever?
44:04
Black Flag Damaged Damaged side one and side two.
44:08
There was really a a division. The side one was the hardcore
44:13
punk side. Side 2 was these five writhing
44:20
quasi metal songs that are, you know, the one song is Henry
44:25
Rollins just screaming. It's called Scream.
44:28
There's and there's one song's called Damaged One and one
44:31
song's called Damaged 2. And that was that was such an
44:37
important record in, in the, in the rise of the scene.
44:44
But I would also put it for pure hardcore.
44:48
I would, I would. What hardcore sound was was the
44:52
1st Circle Jerks record, Group Sex.
44:55
I think it's an 18 minute album. It's some something like 12
44:59
songs, 18 minutes. It's something like that.
45:03
I might have to go look back on it, but it's like every song's
45:06
like a minute and 1/2. There's 32nd songs, there's 22nd
45:11
songs, you know, and that was the spirit of hardcore.
45:15
Just bring it. Just bring it 100%.
45:18
And regardless of it was a Circle Jerks or if it was Black
45:23
Flag, it doesn't matter. They all brought it.
45:26
They brought it. The intensity, the energy, the
45:30
anger, it's it's almost impossible to describe in
45:35
today's terms. Badass.
45:39
And then for a final question, I like to end these with a wild
45:41
card. So what is your absolute not
45:44
hardcore, rock or metal? Favorite album or band?
45:48
Wow, Neil Young Russ never sleeps.
45:57
I saw that tour I got. I think I got dosed with Angel
46:04
Dust while I was there, so that probably made the show even more
46:09
intense. But that's an album that I I
46:15
would put on and listen to with anyone.
46:17
It's, it's a just, it's like, it's kind of like a grunge
46:21
record before grunge existed. Neil Young.
46:25
In fact, I saw Soundgarden open for Neil Young, you know, and I
46:31
was standing. I was very close with
46:32
Soundgarden at the time. In fact, I think one of those
46:36
gold records you could find behind me are Faith No More and
46:38
Soundgarden, you know, so you see where my alliances rest.
46:45
So yeah, Neil Young Russ never sleeps.
46:49
As a as a record, you would think that I would not be into
46:54
for sure. Right on.
46:56
Great, great answer. Hey, hey, my my Steve's brain is
46:59
going to fry at the Neil Young show.
47:02
Steve again, what a just an absolute honor to talk to you
47:05
and help you promote your work. Thank you so much for this book.
47:08
Thank you so much for American hardcore, the book and the
47:10
movie. Looking forward to the final
47:13
installment of your trilogy of books when Rockman Hip hop and
47:17
thank you so much for everything.
47:18
We're going to share this all over the place and again, it's
47:21
just awesome. Hopefully next time I see you in
47:23
person we'll we'll reminisce about some things from the old
47:27
days. I would love that.
47:29
All right, That's what we do. Thanks so much, man.
47:33
We'll talk soon. Take care.
47:35
Take care, bye. One of these turns it off Thank
47:40
you. Hold them up high.