Latest / The Leader in You / 104. The Secure Leader Goes First: Dr. Jaime Goff on Vulnerability, Trust & Attachment at Work

Transcript

104. The Secure Leader Goes First: Dr. Jaime Goff on Vulnerability, Trust & Attachment at Work · The Leader in You

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Experience work interactions in a different and refreshing light.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: This is the Leader in You podcast brought to you by EMC Leaders, taking care of the teams you care about.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: We bring the signs of attachment and emotional connection with insight from the last 20 years to share how you can overcome conflict issues at work and build strong team relationships as well as the connected culture.
0:32
SPEAKER_02: Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leader in You podcast brought to you by EMC Leaders.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: My name is Paulina, and I'm so excited to be here today.
0:42
SPEAKER_02: I co-host this wonderful podcast with the amazing Dr.
0:45
SPEAKER_02: Lola Gershfeld.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Dr.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: Lola.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: Hello, Paulina, and hello everyone.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: We are so excited to be here today with our special guest.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: We have a special guest.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's right.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: We are very, very excited to welcome back Jamie Goff.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Jamie, back to our show.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: Yes, thank you for having me.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: I feel so honored to be a guest for a second time.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: Well, we got such great feedback from our uh first recording with you, our first podcast, and people felt like they really enjoy the conversation.
1:19
SPEAKER_02: So we're very excited to bring you back.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: Before we get started on today's topic, which we are very excited to be talking about, something that's very important, and a special event that's coming up very soon, where Dr.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: Lola and Jamie Goff will be speaking together on stage at.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: Tell us a little bit about yourself, Jamie, and how you got into the world of organizational development and you know, using the emotions to create connected relationships in a thriving environment at the workplace.
1:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: So I actually started my career in the world of psychotherapy.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: And so that's really where I first learned about the importance of emotional connection and attachment theory and was trained in some attachment-based therapies in my work with couples and families.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Um then later on I got interested in how that might also translate into the workplace into relationships between leaders and their teams and their followers.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: So that's how I moved over into the organizational development space.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: And now that's where I spend my time, my professional time.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm um an ICF certified coach.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: So I do a lot of one-on-one coaching with leaders across various industries.
2:33
SPEAKER_01: And then I also go into organizations and you know lead uh retreats and workshops for uh for their leadership teams on these types of topics.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's amazing.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: And how many years have you been doing that?
2:48
SPEAKER_01: Oh, so um had a 25-year career.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the first half of it was kind of in the therapy world.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: And then I've been doing coaching and organizational development, talent development work for about it's going on uh 10 years now.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's awesome.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: And you have a book called The Secure Leader.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: I do, I do.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: I loved, I loved your book.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for sharing that with me.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love the title.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: In fact, I was having a conversation yesterday with my oldest daughter who's currently in Mexico on a trip for work.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, my a family member reached out to me recently.
3:32
SPEAKER_02: It was just like sharing how she was just really worried about my daughter and like she was going through some tough times, and she has a very big presence online.
3:41
SPEAKER_02: And it was so interesting.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: I shared with her that if I had been, if I didn't have a secure relationship with her and I didn't have a securely attached bond, then I would be worried, right?
3:54
SPEAKER_02: Because it's like that's where those fears start to speak really loud when we have that insecure attachment in our relationships.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: And it can be at home, it can be, of course, that this applies everywhere, but specifically we talk about work here, but it is so true.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: I think it starts with a secure leader, and that's I I see myself in conversations that I have with people I work with, with my mom, with my family, with my kids, is so much more um effective and a lot more calm because I am secure.
4:29
SPEAKER_02: You know, I am that secure leader, and I'm kind of leading all these different people in my life in a secure way, and that has made such a difference for me.
4:40
SPEAKER_02: And so I really love that title.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: Um it's so nice.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: So we were looking through different parts of your book.
4:49
SPEAKER_02: Of course, Dr.
4:50
SPEAKER_02: Lowell loves your book.
4:51
SPEAKER_02: And mom, if you want to chime in at any moment, I will pause for you to say something, but I want to just say that we were looking at the correlation.
5:01
SPEAKER_02: Like you do have a lot of similar things that we teach here on the podcast.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: And one of those is to be accessible, responsive, and engaged.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: The ARE framework, which is something that we, you know, it's like it's kind of like the goal, right?
5:20
SPEAKER_02: You get to do all these sessions and you get to communicate effectively and reconnect with people at work in order for you to be accessible, responsive, and engaged and get to a point where when you are a secure leader, you can be accessible, responsive, and engaged in difficult moments.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: So, how has that come into your experience in your life and like what you're doing with your work?
5:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we talk about, you know, I I start with my book talking about the secure leader.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that individual leader and how they go about building, how they can go about, you know, earning more security in their own life and in their relationships.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes, you know, I think people think, oh, you know, all I have to do is internally regulate myself, uh, right?
6:07
SPEAKER_01: Like learn to regulate myself emotionally, kind of keep my thoughts and feelings separate.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: And then I'm showing up as, you know, kind of confident and secure.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: But that's not really what it's all about.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: And you all know this, right?
6:19
SPEAKER_01: That that's part of it.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: You can't really have that in an authentic way without having secure, authentic, accessible, responsive, engaged connections with other people.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: That's that's the other side of the equation, and it's so important.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, as I address leaders in my book, I'm talking with them about what does that look like for them?
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Where are those sources of security?
6:47
SPEAKER_01: Where are their secure relationships that they can cultivate for themselves, whether that's personally or in the workplace for themselves, so that they can then show up in that way and provide that kind of secure base and safe haven that we talk about for their team members.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you can't really provide that secure base, safe haven if you're not accessible, responsive, and engaged and really attuned to the people that you're working with.
7:11
SPEAKER_02: It's so true.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: And this and Dr.
7:14
SPEAKER_02: Lola, would you like to add?
7:16
SPEAKER_02: No, no, go go ahead.
7:17
SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: I will add things.
7:19
SPEAKER_02: I just want to say that it just kind of bridges this bridges to the topic that I wanted to discuss today in today's podcast, which is what you will be speaking about at the ATD org dev.
7:31
SPEAKER_02: So for those of you who are listening or watching us, Dr.
7:35
SPEAKER_02: Lola and Jamie Goff, along with Eric Bostik, did I say that right?
7:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, are going to be speaking at the ATD Org Dev conference September 30th in Indianapolis, Indiana.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna be there, sadly.
7:50
SPEAKER_02: But I'm very excited that you guys will have the opportunity to do a panel discussion.
7:55
SPEAKER_02: And the topic for the discussion is going to be how attachment science builds trust, resilience, and high-performing teams.
8:05
SPEAKER_02: And we kind of like hit the mark on the, I feel the most important skill that leaders have to have, which is to be accessible, responsive, and engaged in difficult situations.
8:19
SPEAKER_02: So take us through a little bit about like more on the topic of that science, that building that trust.
8:25
SPEAKER_02: How do you build trust and resilience and create this high-performing team with that being accessible, responsive, and engaged?
8:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, first, like I'm so excited to, you know, kind of share the stage um with uh with you, Lola.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm disappointed.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna get to meet you in person, Paulina.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, but um I think Lola and Eric and I are gonna have a lot of fun uh doing this together.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: But um, but yes, I you know, in terms of like, you know, the skills or the behaviors that really demonstrate that accessibility, responsiveness, and engagement, one of the things I talk about a lot is attunement, right?
9:10
SPEAKER_01: So being attuned to the people around you, learning to really silence yourself so you can listen, really listen to what's going on with other people, not just in terms of what's being said on the surface, but also paying attention to like their body language and their tone of voice so that you can really connect with and empathize with what might be going on with them.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: And I think in the workplace, sometimes when I'm talking about this, leaders are like, I don't have time for that, right?
9:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't have time for this.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: But I always tell them like, if you have an employee who is stuck for whatever reason or they're really struggling, maybe it's a change that's being implemented and they're feeling resistant to that for some reason.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: It's triggering them in some way, or it's scary, right?
9:57
SPEAKER_01: They're they're afraid of what that change means for them.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: Taking a moment to slow down and really attune actually interrupts resistance, right?
10:07
SPEAKER_01: Once someone feels like they are heard, like they are that their um experiences are understood and they can be validated.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: And when you validate someone's experience, it doesn't mean that you're agreeing with it.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean you're saying, like, oh, you're exactly right, you're right, this change is stupid, we're not gonna do it, right?
10:24
SPEAKER_01: But it just means that you take the time to understand where they're coming from.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: And that loosens up resistance, it helps people feel seen in the workplace, and it really can unlock things and move those relationships and move performance along when people are feeling stuck.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a huge kind of skill that is so important for leaders to learn.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: Another one that I talk about a lot in the workshops that I do is repair, right?
10:52
SPEAKER_01: Because we all miss it, right?
10:55
SPEAKER_01: Like as much as we try to be attuned, there are times when we just aren't because of what's going on in our own lives, because we're hungry or distracted or tired or whatever it might be, sometimes we just miss those emotional messages that people are sending to us.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: And when that happens, one of the best things you can do is recognize it doesn't mean you're, you know, a terrible human being, right?
11:20
SPEAKER_01: It just means you're human.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, we all miss things, we all disappoint other people.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: But taking the time to say, you know what, I'm sorry.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: Like I was busy, I was distracted, and you needed some attention from me, and I didn't give it to you in that moment.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: That's a repair.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that's another big one that I talk to leaders about.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: And those, I think, are two things that you don't always hear in like leadership development training, right?
11:44
SPEAKER_01: Is the importance of attunement and the importance of repair.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: So I'll stop there.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure um Lola has some other um great ideas that she would share too.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, first of all, I completely agree with you.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: The ARE framework gives us a good guide for leaders to understand what does it mean to be a secure leader?
12:05
SPEAKER_00: And I want to stress out it's not just accessible being accessible, like having an open door policy.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: It's about accessible means emotionally accessible.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Like I like the word attunement.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: Attunement is a very very good word because you're not only attuning to the other people, you have to attune to yourself first and foremost.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: And so accessible to me, I'm always saying to people, it means that you are understanding what's going on for you, like when you get triggered, when you're feeling like off balance, when you start to feel that maybe emotion that is coming up of that vulnerability to say, you know, I feel so sad, or I feel so scared that this is happening, or I feel helpless in this moment.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: And that is accessible, and then going a little further to share their fears, and then what you need, like because sometimes leaders don't necessarily express what they need, and um they think, oh, I need you to complete this task, but in a moment, right here, right now, that leaders can share their needs and say, I need to know that I'm not alone in this, right?
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Just being that reassurance gives the leader accessibility and helps the other person to be there for them.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh and I think that is a great role modeling for leaders because sometimes people don't know how to do that.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: And once leaders can exhibit, like Paulina was saying, I'm a secure leader with my team, with my parents, with my children, I can role model that vulnerability and that security.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, that makes a big difference.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that makes a big difference.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: I have a great story about this, if you you all would like me to share it.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, um I I think that like the EMC process is is great.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I have training um, you know, back in my therapy days in emotionally focused uh couples therapy, you know, which is very similar.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: And um one of the first times I applied this in my leadership, in my work as a leader, I was a brand new department chair at a university.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, I think I was like 31, 32 at the time, so pretty young.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: And I had a lot of my colleagues, so my the faculty who taught in my department were more experienced than I was, who, you know, they were more seasoned, had been in the field longer.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: One of whom was actually a senior administrator at the university.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: So but in universities, you know, there you're often in uh multiple roles.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: And so he was a senior administrator, but as a faculty in my department, he reported to me, right?
14:56
SPEAKER_01: And so there was a situation where a student came to me and shared something that this person had said in class that honestly wasn't appropriate.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: It really wasn't appropriate.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think I had been in my role as a department chair for a couple weeks, not very long at all.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh no, I have to have a conversation.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: And not only was this person a senior administrator at the university, but he had also been my professor in the past.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: So, right, and I'm like, I'm gonna, I have to sit down and have this conversation with him.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: And before I did it, because of my like training in emotionally focused therapy and my understanding of attachment science and the importance of being attuned to my own feelings, um, Lola and Paulina, what I did is I sat down and I went through the cycle for myself.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: That's so bad.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: I jotted it out.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, so you know, I kind of, as um, you know, some of the EFT folks, I like took the elevator down.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, what's really going on for me here?
16:00
SPEAKER_01: What am I afraid of in this conversation?
16:02
SPEAKER_01: What are my anxieties?
16:04
SPEAKER_01: And then just kind of thought through like, based on how I present this to him and have this conversation, how might he be likely to react?
16:12
SPEAKER_01: And what can I do to make sure that I'm being vulnerable so that he can hear me and then also be vulnerable.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: And so that's what I did when we sat down to have the conversation.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: That's how I started.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: I just told him, I said, this is a really scary conversation for me to have because I respect you so much.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: And like I see you as, you know, as a leader, as someone who is kind of higher than I am.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: And it's really scary for me to have this conversation.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm very anxious about this.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: And I could just see him soften, right?
16:52
SPEAKER_01: Because that's what happens when we're vulnerable and open about our emotions.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: The other person will typically soften in response to that.
16:59
SPEAKER_01: And then we went on from there and we had a great conversation.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: If I had gone into that being like, this is just unacceptable, like you can't do this, right?
17:08
SPEAKER_01: The conversation probably would have gone so differently.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: And so that was kind of one of my first big aha moments.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: So, like, oh, this works in the workplace, right?
17:21
SPEAKER_01: Not only in like intimate romantic relationships, but this works in the workplace too.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: So I just share that story because that was one of my big aha moments with all of this.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I and I think, Jamie, what you just demonstrated is it's hard to notice and hard to believe that it actually works, right?
17:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: And as you as you mentioned, uh, you know, when leaders say, Oh, I don't have time, I hear that often in in my practice as well and my training.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: And you just say, like, yes, and if you just take the moment, everything else becomes faster, more effective, more efficient.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: Because people are not stuck, they're not wasting time ruminating on what's happening for them and trying to uh regain their balance when they don't really have the tools.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: So absolutely great story.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
18:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: Actually, it kind of answered what I was going to ask you next, which is if you have if you have a client, for example, or like you know, an employee, and you see that one of the things that you said at the beginning of the podcast was like you really want them to be attuned to others, right?
18:37
SPEAKER_02: But I do notice that that people that are really stuck and struggling and not even really sure about emotions, haven't had any experience with talking about emotions, haven't had any exposure to any of this kind of conversations, can be very, very difficult for them to even be attuned or to have that empathy for others.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that like really I was gonna ask, how do you go about working with people that are so closed off?
19:03
SPEAKER_02: And that's like an immediate no.
19:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, and what I'm hearing from the story is maybe that the other person may be involved in a conflict or whoever, whoever is more available or you know, more able to be open to being vulnerable first, would then allow the other person to like soften.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: But are are there ways that you actually go about, you know, kind of breaking down that that fear or that wall and creating that safe space?
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: I think at the workplace, so when you're talking to like, you know, leaders, right, they want some evidence and they they want to know right that it works.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: So I mean, that is one thing I do.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: I always try to make sure that I that I tell them like there's evidence that this type of approach works.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: And even if we're not talking about like the EMC process or attachment, most people understand what like emotional intelligence is.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes I'll start there.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: And the biggest, you know, the foundation of it is that self-awareness and how important it is to attune to your own emotions, like you were saying earlier, Lola.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we'll talk about that.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: Like, what does that look like for you to really understand what you're experiencing?
20:11
SPEAKER_01: And some of us, I I would be the first to admit that is not my strong suit.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: It's not just kind of based on my experiences and the way I was raised and some of my attachment dynamics.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: I have to be really thoughtful about it and take the time to sit down and think through what am I really feeling?
20:31
SPEAKER_01: And I often will recommend some sources and resources that have been helpful to me and kind of putting more language around what I'm experiencing and going deeper than just mad, sad, you know, glad, that type of thing.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Um just to help them connect to that.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: So um I'll often lead them through some like exercises or experiences where I try to help them, you know, in the moment, like what's the last when's the last time you like were really upset at work?
21:00
SPEAKER_01: And then we'll kind of work down through the levels of emotion to try to get to where they were experienced.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes I have to help them along the way because again, a lot of people don't have a great emotional vocabulary.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: I I remember, I remember working uh with several people.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, I remember very clearly this team that I was working on, and this person was a production manager.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: So he really had a um, I guess a bad experience of sharing his vulnerability.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: And he would come to our sessions and he would sit like uh across this long conference room table, like on the other side, you know, like as far as possible.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: And he would uh tell me, like I would say, like what's you know, how's it going?
21:46
SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
21:47
SPEAKER_00: And he he it it almost felt like he wanted to share, but he was so afraid.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: And one time he told me, you know, I don't know, I'm afraid to share this with.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: My colleagues or my team members, because I shared it in the past and it was kind of like used against me in some way.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: So that's always very difficult for people.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: It's a very um risk, right?
22:13
SPEAKER_00: Risky uh experience that we are uh we're asking people to do, and yet I felt the longing, right?
22:21
SPEAKER_00: Because they have the longing to connect with their direct report, they have the longing to connect with their colleagues, but they get so hurt in that moment.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: So what we had to do, we had to process what happened to him for that in that moment, how difficult that was for him.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: And once he understood his emotions, and sometimes I even call out the names.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: If people like don't want to reach out, and Pauline, you do that.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: I say, like, did you feel helpless?
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Did you, you know, you felt hurt, and it made made sense that it would feel like so abandoning or rejecting for you or embarrassing for you.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: So as soon as they start to organize those emotions, guess what?
23:00
SPEAKER_00: They become a lot more balanced and open to experience.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: So uh that that really helped him um to say, and it I also accept it, right?
23:12
SPEAKER_00: I accepted his fear that it's okay.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: Makes total sense that it's so difficult because it was so so painful.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: And as soon as people feel that you really hear them and you can be there with them in that moment, they they do open up because there's again longing for connection.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: We're wired to do that.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: I think that's such I'm sorry, go ahead.
23:38
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, go ahead, please.
23:40
SPEAKER_02: We want I want to hear that.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna, yeah, no, I was just gonna say I think that's such an important point.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: I think this is why it's important to start with leadership in organizations, right?
23:49
SPEAKER_01: Because if it's not a like if there are there are environments, workplace environments that aren't safe, that don't feel safe.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: And it's one of those things that begins at the top, right?
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Just like just like with families.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: So if a parent doesn't demonstrate that they can provide safety, then their children don't aren't gonna open up, which is what you were talking about earlier, right, Paulina?
24:18
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's why for me I feel like it's so important to start with organizational leaders because they're the ones that have to start, right?
24:26
SPEAKER_01: Like you have to kind of go first when you have if we because power is it's just part of the system and the way that most of our organizations are set up.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: So you kind of have to start with the people who have you know have some power being the ones to go first and to show that they're willing to be vulnerable so they create that um you know safe haven and secure base for others.
24:53
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, I love it.
24:55
SPEAKER_02: I love everything that you guys are saying.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: You have like a quadrant um kind of framework also in your book that you do talk about.
25:04
SPEAKER_02: Is that correct?
25:05
SPEAKER_01: You have Yeah, the Goldman model, the Goldman model, you know, the emotional emotional intelligence.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes, uh-huh.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: For emotional intelligence.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Um well, I kind of touch on a little bit of the book.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:17
SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
25:18
SPEAKER_02: So it's not so do you have like a main uh how do you like a tool that you start with when you work with people?
25:26
SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to kind of identifying like maybe their um their attachment style and how that shows up in the workplace, I do have an assessment on my website that you know people can, yeah, that people can take and then they get a report back that says your most and we're none of us fit in a box and none of us are like you know, secure, anxious, avoidant, you know, disorganized.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's fluid, but they'll get a report back that just says, here are your scores in each of these areas.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Your most dominant style seems to be this, and you know, these are some things you can do to work to you know earn more security based on based on those scores.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: So so I do have um that assessment uh that's available, at least for now.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm working on some other things for the future, but they're not out there yet.
26:11
SPEAKER_02: That's amazing, wonderful, awesome.
26:15
SPEAKER_02: Well, um, is there anything else you would like to ask, Dr.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: Lola?
26:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think uh I I want to uh maybe share uh what's some of the topics you will be discussing at the A to D conference, Jim.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we'll be talking obviously about the importance of emotion in in the workplace.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you'll be talking about that.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: And I'll be talking a little bit about attachment and our attachment styles and how that impacts how we show up as leaders.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, all of us together are going to do a fun exercise that I don't really want to give away too much to really demonstrate kind of the uh emotional dynamics, I guess, that can occur um in teams based on how you tend to respond, especially when you're under stress or being you know triggered or those raw spots are being touched.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: I think you're also going to be talking about the negative cycles, no?
27:11
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, and that's what I was talking about.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: That's what I was talking about with exercise.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to give too much away about like what that looks like, but yeah, yeah.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's I think um, you know, I'm I'm uh in the process of um getting ready to do a presentation for renowned um health.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: It's an organization in the areno, and Paulina is going to be doing that with me.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: So we will be training 250 leaders and supervisors in the emotional connection process.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: So, what we are doing is um we decided uh we have two days, uh 100 people for one day, the workshop, and then 150 people on the second day.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: So, as you can imagine, we want to make that as experiential as possible.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: So we are going to basically take them through the EEMC process.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so I asked Paulina, how many EMC reconnection forms do you think they should complete, like in one day?
28:06
SPEAKER_00: And she said, 10.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: I said, 10?
28:10
SPEAKER_00: How is it even possible?
28:12
SPEAKER_00: She said, well, because in the beginning, when people just starting to do the reconnection form, they feel so uncomfortable.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: Like they feel like, wow, this is so scary to be so vulnerable.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: But that by the time they do the 10th one, they're like, oh, this is easy, just follow the form, like to one, two, three.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: So Palina, I'm just curious if you want to share your experience, why you selected that, and what do you see?
28:37
SPEAKER_02: That's so funny.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: I actually, it's funny that you say that because you know, it is a deep process, right?
28:44
SPEAKER_02: Like when we go and down the elevator and go to our primary emotions and start talking about our vulnerabilities, it's like get so deep.
28:52
SPEAKER_02: And I was telling my mom, you know, it we can't be that deep.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: Like it is deep already, but also there's got to be an aspect, especially in the workplace, where we are able to uncover what's happening with us and in the situation currently that's going on with the co-worker, but not necessarily go back like to you know, second grade when we were whatever, put in the corner, you know, we can maybe have uh an experience of that same pattern and then realize maybe in the moment that that pattern came up, but it doesn't have to be like the entirety of the process.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: And so that's what I was sharing um with Dr.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: Lola that, like, you know, I think that if we just like kept it to answer the questions, so you're just really shedding a light to what's going on because so many people just like hide so much of what they're actually feeling.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: They feel so ashamed, they feel scared, they feel like they're gonna be judged, they're afraid of being judged, or you know, maybe seen in a way they don't want to be seen or perceived some way or mocked or criticized, whatever.
30:00
SPEAKER_02: All those things come up for us, and so we really did diminish and minimize how we are experiencing a conflict or a situation at work.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: So I feel like, well, we could go through the eight questions and we can answer them in as light, you know, of a way as possible, but still bring light to it so that it is not so heavy to experience.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: And that's why I'm like, well, if they can do it the first time and then realize it isn't really that deep, um, then it becomes more of a habit to turn to that process when you communicate.
30:34
SPEAKER_02: And if you do, I I always am like such a big believer in like micro habits, right?
30:39
SPEAKER_02: What are those micro habits that we're doing every single day that create this big, great, you know, goal of ours?
30:45
SPEAKER_02: So if we are slowly changing that language and every single day kind of turn to the forum, answer the questions on our own to help us organize what's going on.
30:54
SPEAKER_02: So then just like you said, we can go and have a difficult conversation that's a lot easier, then hey, like that's a great step.
31:02
SPEAKER_02: That's a great tool.
31:03
SPEAKER_02: It's a journaling process, it's a technique, and it's also a form you can use when you're having a conversation with someone that you have a different conversation with.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's how I see it.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: And I think, yeah, like I tell my kids and like I tell, you know, everyone that I deal with, like, yeah, maybe funny, you know, to do a form or whatever, but I think it's great.
31:25
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's just like a great way to organize something that can be really, really complex.
31:30
SPEAKER_02: Doesn't have to be that complex, you know.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: Maybe if it's not that complex, then it will be a lot more accessible to people, you know, and and duplicatable, and people would be much more open to this process and much more excited about having these kinds of conversations, you know.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: Most people in this world are withdrawers, you know, we or we want confrontation, but most of them are withdrawers.
31:54
SPEAKER_02: We shut down and and even internationally, right?
31:56
SPEAKER_02: We see that across cultures too.
31:58
SPEAKER_02: They stay quiet, they keep to themselves, they don't share their feelings, emotions are not allowed at work, all those things.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: So, can we bring light to that in a way that's like simpler and not so intense for people?
32:11
SPEAKER_00: And I I I also see it as like we teaching them a dance, right?
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Like uh Johnson's analogy.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: The music of the dance.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: So I I feel like uh we are teaching them the steps to a new dance, and then once they do they get the steps in, now they can tune into their emotions, like or sit with it and contemplate it and like hold the space for it now because they're no longer are scared of it.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: So uh it will be very interesting to see this.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I like that.
32:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: Well, Jamie, thank you so much for joining us.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, for those of you who are listening and watching, you can get the secure leader on Amazon.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: Is that correct?
32:54
SPEAKER_02: No, Amazon, bookshop.org.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, any wherever books are sold.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: Wherever books are sold.
33:00
SPEAKER_02: Do you have a website, Jamie?
33:02
SPEAKER_01: I do, I do.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: It's uh www.drjamiego.com.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
33:08
SPEAKER_02: I didn't know you were also a doctor.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: How did I miss that?
33:12
SPEAKER_02: Your name, your title says Jamie Goff, uh Dr.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: Jamie Goff.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: But it says Plug D afterwards.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: I didn't even notice.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: I just saw ACC.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: Well, now we you guys now you're blessed with the greatness of two doctors here on our panel.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: Let's redo the entire podcast.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you very much, Dr.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: Jamie and Dr.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: Lola.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for joining us today.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: And for those of you who are listening or watching, we appreciate you, value your commitment to creating a thriving workplace environment.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: For more information on the EMC process, please go to emcleaders.com.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: We will see you at the org dev conference September 30th at Indianapolis, Indiana.
34:00
SPEAKER_02: And make sure to check out the panel, Dr.
34:03
SPEAKER_02: Lola and Dr.
34:04
SPEAKER_02: Jamie and Eric.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: Is he also doctor?
34:07
SPEAKER_00: Not yet.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: No, not yet.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: But he will be at our podcast next week.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: We will be interviewing him.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: Anything else, ladies, that you'd like to add?
34:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, I I want to say uh thank you very much, Jamie, for joining us today.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: It's always such a pleasure to talk to you, and I look forward to seeing you at the ATD org Dev conference in uh soon, very soon.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes, likewise.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
34:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you so much, and we'll see you next week.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: Bye.
34:38
SPEAKER_02: Bye.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Thank you everyone for listening.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: It's a joy to share these podcasts with you.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: Be sure to check out our previous podcast and subscribe to join us at our next podcast of The Leader in You, brought to you by EMC Leaders, taking care of the teams you care about.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: Until then, be well and be focused on your relationships.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: We'll see you soon.