Latest / The Leading Yourself Podcast / From Expert to Leader: The Leadership Shift Every Executive Must Make | Professor Osama Khan
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- Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): for me, unlearning is more about how do I not offer solution all the time? not looking for expertise. Because I cannot be expert in stage management, in digital management, in people management, in all of it. My core training is I'm an economist and have been an academics in finance in business school. So of course, when I lecture, my student expect me to be a subject matter specialist. But I'm not a subject matter expert in everything as I'm the accountable officer. I make sure I unlearn the urge of trying to be in control because I need to make all the decision Kene Igweonu: Mm-hmm. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): and I need to absolutely know every detail, because that is not humanly possible number one, and that's actually rather poor leadership Kene Igweonu: My guest on this episode of the podcast is Professor Osama Khan, Vice Chancellor and Chief Executive of the University of South Wales here in the UK. Osama, welcome to the podcast. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): Thank you very much. Thank you for having me, Kene I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Kene Igweonu: Could you please start by telling us a little bit about your organization and your key responsibilities as Vice Chancellor and Chief Executive? Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): So my university is a University of South Wales. It's situated as the name says in South Wales. It's a civic university, regional player. If I would like your listener to remember my university for one thing, that would be we bring hope to the valleys. Everybody knows about the Welsh valleys. This university has been serving the valleys as the only university in the Welsh valleys. has a history in mining, coal mining. So it used to be a mining school nearly 150 years ago and then through evolution and mergers and changes and different governance changes now since 2013 known as University of South Wales. We are quite a comprehensive university. we offer quite a wide variety of science, technology, health, policing, business, performing art, courses and creative courses split between three campuses. I am today in Trefforest in Pontypridd right at the mouth of the Welsh Valleys. It's beautiful here. And we have a campus in Cardiff and we also have a campus in Newport. As a Vice-Chancellor, my role is to be the accountable officer for the university and provide strategic direction and make sure the university is sustainable in terms of its core mission of education, transforming life through education, doing impactful applied research and maintaining its civic responsibility because as I said, we are a regional university. Kene Igweonu: Brilliant, thanks for the introduction to your job and to your university. Before we dive fully into the conversation, I think it's worth reminding everyone that this season of the Leading Yourself podcast explores the idea that leadership growth sometimes is less about adding more and more about letting go of habits, assumptions, instincts, and ways of leading that no longer serve us well. So Osama, my first question in this conversation is, what have you learned about unlearning as a leader. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): I must be honest by saying that I think as a leader, unlearning is probably one of the most challenging things. And particularly leading up to become the vice chancellor or chief exec of an organization, it meant that for years you're training yourself, learning a lot of things to reach to this position. And I am not saying this is the end of it. I'm personally a quite reflective and learning focused individual. So I always think that this is not the end of the journey. There is more to learn for me. But as you come to the top of the organization, unlearning things that I need to do is for me has been the most challenging thing. It's only been three months I'm in my position. until now it was all about what do I need to learn to be a vice-chancellor and of course during my time last three executive positions even to be an executive I realized that I need to sometimes hold me back in doing things the way I have done before and I feel like that is the unlearning. that discomfort where I always had previously a niggle to know the detail, get into the job, finding the solution myself, how do I stop myself from finding the solution for my exec member? So in a way, it has been uncomfortable for me to do that. for me, unlearning is more about how do I not offer solution all the time? How do I not looking for expertise. Because I cannot be expert in stage management, in digital management, in people management, in all of it. My core training is I'm an economist and have been an academics in finance in business school. So of course, when I lecture, my student expect me to be a subject matter specialist. But I'm not a subject matter expert in everything as I'm the accountable officer. How do I make sure I unlearn the urge of trying to be in control because I need to make all the decision Kene Igweonu: Mm-hmm. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): and I need to absolutely know every detail, because that is not humanly possible number one, and that's actually rather poor leadership Kene Igweonu: You've actually kind of covered quite a few things there. And I'm not suggesting this is what you're saying, but it's got me thinking. Is unlearning is something that leaders actively choose? Or do you think that something that is forced upon leaders by virtue of the role and the seniority of the role that they hold? Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): I don't want to prolong it but if I just quickly reflect on how I developed myself. So when I joined, like both of us, academia, we joined academia after postgraduate studies, becoming an expert in the subject. For me, it was real estate, finance and economics, primarily economics. And then, of course, my career has been teaching finance in business school. So you have to be an expert. What is the latest research? What's going on in the industry? Your student expects you to be knowledgeable. So, acquiring knowledge to to become a master of your subject or create a mastery of your subject is expected. We expect our academics to have mastery in their subject. So that was the first phase. If I divide my entire career into kind of major three phase, first phase of graduate studies and subsequently early career academic - do the research, do the reading, understand what's going on in the industry. It's knowledge acquisition to master your subject. When you get to mid-level management or the first time you're given a management role like director of programme or associate dean of education or even dean of a faculty or anything like that, if I put all those leadership into one place, I would say that you are then at that moment trying to to solve challenges like, you know, what is my role in clearing? Well, my role in clearing as a director of program in business management is I have a target from the associate dean education and I need to call applicants and enthuse them to come to my university. So there's a task, you find how to do it. You know that what's the problem, what's the task, you define it clearly and you find solution. And in fact, the solution focused leadership is for quite a long time as you move through your mid to senior management and when you come to senior management you then start to realize that your breadth of responsibility is so wide that you cannot know everything that was the first one third of my career and you do not know the solution for everything and it is a very uncomfortable situation to be in after all that training so suddenly I realized that I am chairing a meeting I might be the chair because I'm the Pro-Vice-Chancellor or the Deputy Vice-Chancellor and now the Vice-Chancellor, but I actually know the least about this topic where I'm chairing the meeting. But my job is to enthuse the community, get the expert advice, nurture the diverse view, and feel comfortable in the discomfort that I actually do not know everything. That is tough, Kene, I must say. And I think that's why If you're not careful as a Vice-Chancellor, I might be, because I would admit I'm an opinionated individual and that's partly because I'm an academic and partly because of the way I built myself. Now, I might run the risk of setting the tone too early. when my team will think, the Vice Chancellor thinks this is what needs to happen, so let me just follow, somehow navigate everything to his opinion. In my humble opinion, if I do that, then I'm probably making suboptimal decision because I'm neither the knowledgeable expert in the subject that I'm talking about, nor know the solution for the challenge that we are solving. I think that, not saying your opinion first because you think I have seen it all, so I have an opinion. Yes, of course, I have accumulated experience which has led to the board of this university to very kindly decide that I am their next vice chancellor and I'm grateful for it. However, it makes me very often, almost on a daily basis, to understand that I do not know everything. And I cannot just open my mouth straight away because my office and my position and my title carry a weight that if I give them suboptimal, my team might accept suboptimal and may not open up to say, by the way, Osama, this is not the way to think about it. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, you heard it here. There is a difference between being an expert and doing something really well because that's what you're trained to do and being a leader. As a leader, you have to sometimes put your expertise in the back burner in order to lead other people to achieve the outcomes you want for your organization. So thank you so much Osama for that. Can you describe a leadership belief or habit or instinct that you have relied upon that you've later had to let go? So thinking about one specific example of something that has helped you through your career. now as a Vice Chancellor, you've mentioned one already. You talked about not being the first voice in the room. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): Yeah, So, you know, we do psychometric tests as leaders. I'm sure you've gone through Myers-Briggs and, you know, the emotional, whether you're introvert, extrovert and all that tool. I love them. I absolutely love them. And every time I read one report that comes out, I would say more than 90 percent, I agree what the tool ultimately say about myself. So as an economist I have quite a bit of blue in me which means that I need data and evidence to make my decision. But I'm also naturally quite enthusiastic. I have an optimism bias. Recently, this is what I have been told by one of my mentor that just be careful that you don't have an optimism bias. And I said, what does that mean? And... Of course, they explain that it basically means that you will probably take quite a bit of risk because you're naturally quite optimistic. So you're not taking risk because you are thrill seeking or anything like that, but because you're so positive, you may not absolutely see the grievous nature of a particular great problem, which is such a good suggestion. So If you know this color code so blue people are who are very analytical They need the data and evidence forensic detail and until they have done everything they will not make a decision yellow individuals are individuals who are quite optimistic and you know, the less amount of information will make them feel comfortable they get enthused about new projects and ideas red people are more like They are very decisive and they know exactly where to go and they will say it first and they will ask everybody to follow them. And the green individual would be individuals who are very democratic. Unless the whole room has agreed, they will not make a decision. So I am in my profiles, always comes up as somebody naturally, if you leave it to myself, I'm very yellow. Like, what's the next thing we are going to do, Kenny? What are you doing over the weekend? Or you're going somewhere, I'll join you. Or you're visiting your country, can I come and join you as well. it's like new idea, new project saying yes is a natural instinct for me. On other hand, I have good tenacity to process data because I'm an economist. And I moderate myself by looking into evidence and then taking decisions. So why am I explaining this? Because what served me very well coming up to senior position in exec is the tenacity to look at data, process it fast, and make decisions fast. So yes, I wouldn't say yes to a concept which is only conceptual. I still need bit of data. But I will say yes quite often. And I will come up with a solution or an idea in a discussion quite early. Sometimes I actually feel the urge of being competitive in a meeting that can I say first what's the solution? Now, when you are in a competitive environment or when there are a multilayer of senior above you, that's not a bad thing because you might say things quick and then through discussion somebody might say that's not a great idea. But when you're the vice chancellor and you feel quick and you process the data quick you're quite naturally enthused and you say this is what we need to do you lose the opportunity for your team to give input and that diversity of thinking could go away. So something that served me well is that very quick coming to conclusion, offering my view, based on data. But if I do it now, I think I will not let my exec flourish. I will not let my senior leadership group flourish either. It served me well and it pains me to stop myself, I must say. But I can see that I need to stop myself. Otherwise, I will make suboptimal decisions and not help my team, neither the solution that is really needed for the organization. Kene Igweonu: And for an emerging leader, who is still growing in their seniority, just listening to you say that, is there a risk that if you don't speak up, that people may waste a lot of time discussing other stuff? you're sitting there like I know the answer to this but I don't want to say it what is the risk of that approach Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): Personally, I don't perceive a risk because I actually do not have a lot of green in my psychometric. I notice that. I am very collegiate, very collaborative, but I never paralyzed myself that everybody has to become on board. I accepted that quite early on that in life, not everybody will come to agreement on one thing. What is the risk you ask by listening to voices I know I'm not listening to voices to bring them to same page. That's why leader make a mistake. That's why I also made mistake where I've kind of felt like everybody needs to be on the same page and you're discussing and discussing and beating around the bush and not coming to a conclusion. So yes, there is a risk like that. But your idea would be to actively listen, understand what are the opposing views. In that process, you also need to understand is the opposing view from a point of health or professionalism or from a point of relationship? Because sometimes we also know there are precarious relationships between senior leaders. You also need to navigate that. Is X saying something because they don't like Y and they just want to take an opposite position of Y, or is X saying something because that is a valid contribution which happens to be the opposite view point of Y. So active listening, understanding the topic and from subject matter expert, people who really understand the solution is a healthy thing to do. But if you are looking for consensus or if you're looking for everybody will come to one single solution until they all have discussed it to nth degree. That's where you fail as a leader. That's where a meeting becomes unproductive. But Kene Igweonu: Yeah. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): if you do it too quick, then you may not even want to call the meeting and just run the university from this office. Because what's the point of having a meeting? Because I have all the solution in my head. In my mind, that would be pretty arrogant and pompous for a leader to believe that they can run the university from the office. Kene Igweonu: And it wouldn't produce the best results anyway, I mean, there's a different way of thinking about this, where the leader actually doesn't run it from their office, but they run it in the way there's group think. They enforce a particular way of thinking. So everybody kind of says things they know the leader want to hear. And you don't produce the best outcomes for any organization that way. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): Exactly. So in way, that's a very good point you mentioned because these offices have enough weight that I can create a group thinking by having micro conversation because I meet all my leaders one to one and I can start to drop things where they will think, okay, what I have heard, Osama wants to solve Y by applying X solution. So my job would be when we meet to support that thinking because I know my boss wants me to think that way. So that is also something we need to actively avoid. Ultimately we need to create an environment where there is psychological safety to discuss anything and everything and take dissenting voice. That's another thing. You talked about learning and unlearning descending voice. How do you digest and accept and rather welcome dissenting voice on your top table in your leadership room. Kene Igweonu: Could you say more about that? So as a vice chancellor, you want to encourage people to be the authentic self, to bring different perspectives to discussions. But under the current environment that universities are operating, there's a lot of pressure to make very quick decisions. How do you balance the need to make quick decisions with that sense of, and I'm not talking about talking things to death now, but that sense of... everyone just bringing different opinions and putting different things on the table and bringing a dissenting view when already seems that everybody's coalescing around a particular view but then some people have very strong voices and they want to put that in the room. How do you manage that as a leader? Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): You know, I noticed so far in my career and life that what individuals or a group value is there is a genuine interest in their views and an authentic listening, an active listening. They value that more than whether my voice ultimately became the solution or not. I think people in general, a rational human being, they do understand that I might have that view, but that may not be the solution. But I want a chance for someone who is in a position of power to make the decision for all of us to actively listen to my views, and even better, if they could then give feedback at why the view hasn't been accommodated when you make that ultimate decision. That's what I noticed. Now you may not agree with it, many of your listeners might listen to this and say that, I don't agree with that. But that's fine. For me, that's secondary. Primary is whether I've given a safe psychological safety and a platform to express myself. And when somebody take a decision, is quite opposite to what I expressed, perhaps has the time or the respect to come back to me saying this is the reason we made that decision. And I noticed that majority of the time if as a leader you create an environment like that your ultimate decision which might be different to about 10 voices you have heard people will still respect to follow you they will still respect Kene Igweonu: Yeah. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): to follow to implement that because you have listened to them and to be honest it's not gimmicky it actually makes your decision quite rich as well now having said that Kene Igweonu: It does. It does. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): there are certain decisions which are simply easy to make you don't necessarily need a lot of conversation. And if I don't make those decisions fast enough, then yes, I do run a risk of paralyzing the institution for every decision on being a meeting. Take the minutes and have another meeting. But on a day to day, a lot of things come through my table. What do we do about as simple as where should the plaque go for a particular opening ceremony on a building? Now either you sometimes say that, can you not bother me with that sort of decision? I absolutely accept your aesthetic value. you can release your organization from such tiny things. But on the other hand, you may have a solid view. I'll give you a funny example, but this is true. So right in front of our campus, we have, this is a campus on a hill. So from the road that is in front of our campus, if you want to come to Tŷ Crawshay, which is the front-facing building, and my office is in that building, you need to climb several steps. And there are two railings beside those steps. And there are metal pipe rails for anybody who needs support and they don't have any paint so they're like you know typical metal pipe rails you see in train station or bus station it somehow took away a bit of aesthetics. So, despite of all the things that I should be busy with, I did text my director of estates - can you paint them differently? Because it doesn't look quite nice. And he took the decision, he painted it and it looks fabulous. Now, that's a tiny thing that probably made me feel like, can we present the university slightly better? And that's okay. Sometimes for a VC, it's okay. I don't think my director of estates thought, my goodness, what is the new VC doing? Is he going to do that all the time? Not really. But there are... different scale of those tiny decisions that comes on your table on a regular basis. You observe something or somebody come and say that we need signature here from you and you know tiny small decisions sometimes they could be quite impactful but you are very vivid that you this is the right answer. Why then bother everybody to make the decision collectively? We should collectively decide what should be the curriculum design of this institution. What sort of new course we should be going into? How our world is changing for artificial intelligence? Are we equitable to all people and all our students? Are their achievement equitable? These are societal problems that I should not be deciding sitting in my office. That's what the conversation lies. Kene Igweonu: Thank you As you as you're speaking one thought that hasn't quite left my mind actually is linked to what you just saying. I think some listeners may be surprised to know that as a vice chancellor you still have mentors People who are supporting your leadership and mentoring you And in relation to the unlearning that you've done about not being the first voice in the room and all that you mentioned that your mentor Advised you about that as well But you already know based on your own psychometric, you already know some of your proclivities. Could you say a bit more about the role of feedback, the role of mentorship in senior leadership as a vice chancellor? So I'm thinking about that in relation to the trigger for your unlearning. Could you say more about the roles that mentors play in triggering that process of unlearning for us? Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): I am very fortunate from very early on in my life that I have had some absolutely brilliant mentors in my life. At any single point, I maintain three to five, if not even more, number of... individuals who I respect enormously for all sorts of different reasons and I built a relationship with them as close that if I text them now saying that I would like a five minute chat in the next half an hour most likely all of them will reply. That is essential, Kene, for me. Absolutely essential. That was essential when I was a lecturer. And that is even more essential now, now that I'm the accountable officer and every buck stops on my table as a vice chancellor. Because there are those decisions, as I said, you need to make, or there are thinking that your exec have fed you, but you just want an externality about it. Or sometimes it's just how you're feeling. feeling under pressure thinking that I cannot quite know how am I going to make this decision. I need some externalities to this, not just my exec and I must highlight that it doesn't happen all the time but my chair of my board is fabulous. I feel like I can have this conversation with him. I know that this is a very governance led transactional relationship, but I'm fortunate once again that he's happy to give me that mentoring as well without judging that, you're my vice chancellor, you should really know what you're doing. So I have simultaneously quite a number of people like that. And by the way, they are not all organizationally or in their accomplishment above me. It's not like I'm talking only to very seasoned vice chancellors or CEOs. I talk to anybody whom I feel they have something to add and they will not judge me or I don't have to wear my vice chancellorship in front of them. That's quite a big achievement in a way to find a mentor like that who is not going to say you're the VC of university, how come you don't know this is what you should be doing? So that vulnerability Although I must say I'm quite authentic. Sometimes I do share things like that with my exec. However, you sometimes simply need to remove yourself from your role, but still discuss the role with someone who will not judge you. It's very therapeutic and I am very blessed to have number of people in my life who regularly will advise me, will tell me this is how you might want to think, this is what you might want to reflect on and I love that. I'm a learning individual. That learning is constant. Kene Igweonu: That was brilliant. I know we've kind of focused on just very few areas of unlearning. How has unlearning shaped and strengthened your leadership? And I'm thinking about that in relation to what are you better at now as a result? Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): Early days for me to have a much more conclusive statement to make because as I said, it's my fourth month as a vice-chancellor. But I would say that personally it helped me to wear my responsibility more lightly. to be an accountable officer of a very complex organization who is going through financial stress. The sector is in a very difficult situation. If you're not careful, you could be very unkind to yourself and you could burn yourself down. So I think that unlearning that I don't have to find all the solution and I don't have to have all the knowledge because I have good people around me. How do I source those good people? It is something personally is helping me otherwise I could see given my natural tendency, I will worry a lot. Why do I not know about things? can't I come up with a solution and why am I not leading in the meeting? So when you start to believe that if I surround myself with very intelligent people, and I'm so blessed that there are very good people around me, my team, I feel like my job is more to curate that team. If I curate the team, they will play very good ball. And then I don't have to worry about that. So this is something I didn't necessarily even felt as much when I was a Deputy Vice Chancellor or a full Vice Chancellor. I always took pride in building my team, but I can see that my goal is increasingly building that team. directing them at a very high strategic level that helps my own personal mental health and well-being but it also creates right decision for the organization. So I think those are the benefit of holding myself back from the first one to speak, the Kene Igweonu: Yeah. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): fountain of knowledge and the solver because I can't be. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, yeah, I see that. It's something that I'm having to also, you know, constantly speak to myself about. But you'd be pleased to have got just one last question. And this is about you've spoken about this already. You talked about psychological safety, creating a safe space for your team to be able to bring their voice to the table. How do leaders create this environment where other people can grow, adapt, and also unlearn safely. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): I would say we need to show that we have vulnerabilities. We also need to show that we make mistakes and when we make mistakes, although my chair is not strictly my boss who is supervising me, the relationship between a CEO and a chair of the board is an arm length relationship. Now, as I highlighted, I do have a good relationship with my chair who Kene Igweonu: Yeah. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): act as a mentor as well. However, it is an arm lenght relationship. You're still the accountable officer, the regulator, the funder, the government, every stakeholder will hold you accountable. So. I'm a human being, I do make mistakes. Sometimes I probably don't do the right thing or I might have made a decision which I realized that is taking the particular path in a wrong trajectory. When I correct courses, I generally try to find a way to say, sorry, this wasn't great. That was my decision. In fact, you might have said something which at the point I didn't quite accept, but now I can see the way you wanted to solve was probably better because my decision clearly is yielding a wrong result. I think this active way of showing that you are also a vulnerable individual and you may also make mistake to your team as the... ultimate boss creates an environment where people will feel that okay I know that I can make mistakes, my vice chancellor talks about it as well, so it's okay I don't have to constantly perform. So one of the things that I don't do, in fact it's not in me at all, can't even even if it is asked of me I won't be able to do it, is be a performative individual. I'm very poor with that, I don't have any poker face unfortunately, so you get what you what what's inside me. So you you will very quickly I'm frustrated or I'm happy or I'm worrying and that that particular characteristics help me which means that naturally I could be quite authentic I could show that my goodness I actually don't know how to solve it can we solve it together and as a boss saying that meant that you take a certain amount of performative element from your team which creates psychological safety because you see vulnerability in the ultimate boss which means you could be vulnerable Or you could make a comment which ultimately lead to a wrong solution or could be argued that that comment is not really valid and you wouldn't feel like I've been attacked or people might have thought I'm stupid. How could I be a pro vice-chancellor and executive dean who made a comment like that? How do you create an environment? none of that happens? So one thing I know I actively do is when I didn't make the right decision, I say it wasn't the right decision. I'm sorry, let's correct the course. or when somebody made a point and argued with dissenting voice, but then I in the meeting realized that that's the right voice, I sometimes go back and say, okay, I changed my view, you are right. saying that is important, acknowledging that you have vulnerability and acknowledging that I'm now giving up to your argument because you clearly stand taller than me in terms of that particular decision, creates psychological safety as well. Kene Igweonu: I like that a lot. think one of the things I take from what you're saying is that when a leader leads in the way you just described, leading with vulnerability, then you actually avoid punishing growth or vulnerability itself because people see that you are vulnerable in those kind of spaces when decisions are being made and it empowers them, it enables them to just go for it and get things right sometimes, get things wrong sometimes, but know you're not going to jump down their throat. because they've just made a mistake because we learn from mistakes. As educational institutions, like I say this to colleagues at the University of Brighton where I work, that mistakes is one of the best way to learn, provided we are open to learning from mistakes because sometimes we want to hide our mistakes and hiding actually means that we're not learning from it. So yeah, I think that's really important. Brilliant. Thank you so much Osama and thanks to everyone who's joined us for this conversation. it's been a brilliant conversation with Professor Osama Khan, who is Vice Chancellor and Chief Executive of University of South Wales. Just talking about what it means to be a leader, to unlearn habits that have maybe served in the past but no longer serve us. And we've really zeroed in on this idea of, you know, not always being the first voice in the room, not always being the most prominent. voice in the room. And I like the distinction you drew between being an expert versus being a leader. I think that's really powerful distinctions there. So thank you so much Osama. Prof Osama Khan, USW, (He/Him): You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Kene Igweonu: Thank you. And thanks everyone.