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Making Sense of the Conflict between Israel and Hamas · Centrally Speaking

• 0:58
  SPEAKER_04: So you bring a lot of information to a topic like the a lot of information not only from the nation but also um people that you know and that are there to know.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um we're very uh pleased to be able to have you for this podcast.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well thank you, Dr.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Drake.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's my privilege to to be with you and to consider this very important subject.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_04: As we talk about making sense of this conflict between Israel and Hamas, uh maybe you could tell us more about the source of your perspective.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh as you mentioned in your introduction, it's been my privilege to serve uh for the last 32 years as director of Hebrew Christian Fellowship.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: And in that capacity, I've had the privilege and the opportunity of traveling back and forth to Israel many, many times, spending a good bit of time in Israel.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, over that 32-year period of time, um, my wife and I have gotten to know uh not only professionally and and ministry-wise, but we've gotten to know personally uh many, many folks in Israel with whom we have a close personal relationship and with whom we have uh regular communication.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we, of course, have spent time uh in their homes.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we've gotten to know their children, their grandchildren, we've attended uh weddings of their children.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my wife has knit blankets for their children and grandchildren.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so these this is a very personal relationship, not only with uh with Jewish folk in Israel, uh, but also uh with with Arabs, we've gotten to know and have a relationship with with in Israel as well.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so when the news uh reached us on Saturday morning, October the 7th, of uh of what had just happened uh early in the morning, um when we heard that word, uh we suddenly began to think about individuals, not just uh wanting information generally about what was going on, but but but wondering about our friends.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and then what began was a regular stream of communication back and forth uh that has that has continued uh to this day, in fact, to this very morning.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so our perspective, my perspective on this situation, uh certainly it has to do with with wanting to gather information generally, but it's more than that.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a personal perspective, and it's something that that I try to share with people as much as I can.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we're very fortunate to have you give your personal perspective on this.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_04: This is October uh the 23rd that we're taping.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_04: So we're uh some just under two weeks after the season.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_04: Conflict for season really came to the surface in October the seventh.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_04: We're very uh grateful for your firsthand information.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: And talking with people about this conflict and realizing some people don't even know where Gaza is.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_04: So maybe you could start by telling us where is Gaza?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_04: You know, why is uh Israel so focused on threats from this very small place in the world?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a really good question and a very important question.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that people are because because of the prominence of the Gaza Strip, and that's a strip of land, as the name would indicate, uh, and uh because of the prominence of uh Gaza and the Gaza Strip uh in the news right now, uh people are astounded when they learn how very small a piece of land that is.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now we have to remember that that Israel itself, uh that that that area that we would refer to as Israel is is a very small area uh overall, and it is the size of the state of New Jersey.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I'm referring to the entire uh area that we would refer to as Israel, is the size of the state of New Jersey.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um actually, it is possible to drive from uh one of the more northern parts of Israel to the very, very southern part of Israel, which would be uh the city of Elat, uh, which uh is on the shore of the Red Sea, the Gulf of Aqaba.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's possible to drive from the northern part of Israel all the way down to the southernmost part of Israel in about six and a half, seven hours at a reasonable uh uh rate of speed.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then in terms of width of the land of Israel, uh at the widest point, you one could probably drive uh across the widest part of Israel uh in a matter of two, two and a half hours.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that's the size of the whole area of Israel.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: But all the way down on the southern part of the Mediterranean coast uh is this little strip of land that is called the Gaza Strip.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: It is a uh a strip of land that is only 25 miles long from north to south.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that means very simply that uh again at a reasonable rate of speed, which might be difficult driving through Gaza, but at a reasonable rate of speed, one could probably drive from the northernmost part of the Gaza Strip to the southernmost part of Gaza Strip in a half an hour.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then at its widest uh point, the strip is about seven and a half miles wide.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Seven and a half miles wide.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it is a very, very small area uh that that we're considering here.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the reason why it's important, though, is that uh that Israel uh ever since the 1967 Six-Day War, which included uh as one of the participants against Israel, uh, the country of Egypt.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point in time, Egypt was actually in control of the whole Sinai Peninsula, and actually um right up to the border of Gaza.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, uh, as a result of the 1967 Six-Day War, uh, Israel uh took control not only of the Sinai Peninsula, which eventually was returned to Egypt as part of a peace process with Egypt in the later time, uh, but Israel was in control of Gaza, of that area, which actually looks like it's part of Israel proper, but that strip of land, uh, and and then uh as again as part of the attempt uh to work a peace agreement with uh with the uh Palestinians, uh with the Arabs.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in 2006, Israel uh pulled out of Gaza completely.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And ever since 2006, so we're talking about the last 17 years, Gaza, the Gaza Strip, that little piece of land, has been exclusively under the control of the Palestinians.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Israel has had no presence there, they've not had any any control, it's been completely under the control of the Palestinians.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now, one would be would be incorrect to say that um that uh the government of Gaza Strip is democratic.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it is it is not, but elections were conducted uh and uh and and some years ago um actually um the elections were held to determine who would be in charge uh of the leadership of Gaza, and the the results of that election were that Hamas, uh the group of Hamas, was actually given control of Gaza.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now, realizing that Hamas is a radical uh Islamic militant group, um, and of course, ever since that time, ever since Hamas has been in control of Gaza, there have been many, many incursions uh from uh the Gaza Strip um into uh southern Israel.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that is something that has gone on time and time again over the years, and of course, it eventually culminated in that which took place on Saturday, October the 7th.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a very small piece of land, but it is in such a position that uh it becomes a launching pad, really, for uh the terrorist group Hamas uh to actually uh facilitate uh incursions into Israel.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's why it's such a crucial place.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: Before moving to talk further about Hamas, uh uh this area is uh one of the most densely populated areas in the world with some 2.1, is that correct, uh million people?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's right, 2.2.1 million people.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and and it is, you're you're absolutely right, it is one of the most densely populated uh areas of the world.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and of course, the capital, if we want to refer to this, is Gaza City, that is in the northern uh part of the strip.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh there are 650,000 people uh who live in a in a very, very small area uh in Gaza City.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And perhaps to give a sense, we could say that that uh far and away Gaza City is more tightly uh packed and populated than New York City.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so yes, it is a very densely populated area.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh most of that population is concentrated in the northern part of Gaza, uh, and that would be primarily in Gaza City and surrounding areas.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_04: And now uh it's Hamas that uh uh rules uh the area.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_04: Can you tell our listeners about the the origin of Hamas?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, in order to understand the origin of Hamas, I suppose we have to we have to think in terms of the the origin of some other groups uh out of which Hamas came.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and the one that comes to mind first and foremost is the PLO, that would be the Palestine Liberation Organization.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the PLO was uh was uh founded officially in 1964.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And many people uh when they think of the PLO, uh they immediately think of uh of the individual who was really the the director or at the head of the PLO uh almost from the beginning of that organization until the time of his death.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that, of course, is Yasser Arafat.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's the name that comes to mind.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, uh, while the PLO was founded in 1964, um Arafat became the the director, the head of the PLO in 1969, and continued to be the director until 2004.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: From its beginning, the the purpose of the Palestine Liberation Organization was twofold, and the idea was to unify the Palestinian people.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: And by that we are referring to uh to essentially the Arabs uh who either live in the area that we would now consider to be Israel, or those individuals who were displaced from those areas uh as a result of some of Israel's wars, 1948, the war of the independent independence, 1967, the Six-Day War, and people who were displaced, and we're talking about Arab people who were living in Israel, were displaced from their from their homes as a result of those wars.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and so we're talking about Arabs who have a connection with what in the past has been referred to as the land of Palestine.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the definition of a Palestinian.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so the purpose of the PLO was to actually unify the Palestinian people and to provide an organization for them to accomplish a number of goals.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: The first and major goal of that organization was essentially uh to return complete and absolute control of, shall we say, Palestine, Israel, uh, to the Palestinians.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the thing about it is, when you have the Jewish state that has been in Israel since 1948, uh, how is it possible to return complete and absolute control of that area to the Palestinians?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer is in order to do that, it is necessary to displace the uh the Jews, the Israeli Jews from Israel, and actually to bring about uh the fall of the Jewish state.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so early on, uh the modus operandi of the PLO was to at least orchestrate uh, or if not orchestrate, to endorse uh various activities that would have to be considered uh nothing other than terrorist activities, with the idea of eventually uh eliminating uh the Jews from Israel.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: The thing about it is over a period of time, Arafat uh finally agreed, and this was as a result of the Oslo Accords in 1993, uh when uh Yitzhak Rabin was the um was the prime minister of Israel.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, as a result of that, uh at that period of time, uh Arafat agreed that maybe there should be some negotiation between uh the PLO, the Palestinians, and Israel to try to come to some sort of a solution.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and there were there were members of the PLO and Palestinians who didn't like the idea of negotiating with Israel uh and and simply wanted to maintain that initial uh goal of just driving the Jews into the sea.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And out of that came the group of Hamas.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, officially, Hamas came into existence uh in 1987, and it was largely in reaction to what the Palestinian Palestine Liberation Organization and its subsequent authority, the Palestinian Authority, uh, was doing in terms of uh promoting more political solutions.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so ever since 1987, Hamas has had as its purpose active acts of terrorism uh to try to eliminate Jewish people and uh the Israeli Jewish state.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, um the the name Hamas uh is actually an acronym of uh some letters in Arabic.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the the best translation of those uh actually three letters in Arabic is uh Islamic resistance movement.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So Hamas technically means Islamic resistance movement, and it is a resistance against Israel and Israel's presence, the Jewish presence uh in Israel that is driven definitely by a radical uh Muslim ideology.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh that's kind of a thumbnail sketch, if that's possible, of how Hamas came into existence.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, and it's conducted these terrorist attacks uh on Israelis uh throughout the years.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but on October the 7th, we reached a new level, didn't we?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_04: Why is October 7th uh different than some of these other attacks from your perspective?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh actually, ever ever since Hamas took control, and we would say essentially around around shortly after 2006, ever since Hamas took control of Gaza, because of the location of Gaza, uh right right along the southern part of Israel, uh Hamas has been regularly launching um, let's put it this way, projectiles into southern Israel.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Rockets, uh, for the most part, uh rockets that were not particularly long range.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but of course, uh so there's been a steady barrage since 2006 of these uh attacks, uh, rockets, projectiles, and and all along the southern part of Israel, uh not far at all from the border with the Gaza Strip, uh, there are Jewish communities.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh each one is called the kibbutz together.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: They're called the kibbutzim.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so Jewish uh communities, farming communities for the most part, uh, and so Jewish people living uh very, very close to the Gaza border.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh time and time again, when these rockets were being launched, uh, these people uh would hear a warning and they would have to find shelter in their safe room or their bomb shelter.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And this has gone on back and forth and on over the years, on occasion, there would be some individual Hamas operatives who would be able to get into Israel and would commit some isolated acts of terrorism, which in and of themselves were were bad enough.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: But this reached, of course, um uh a point uh which is unimaginable on uh again Saturday morning in Israel, about 6:30 in the morning, October the 7th, uh, when hundreds and hundreds of Hamas operatives were able to breach the border security fence between Gaza and Israel and get into that area and began a campaign of essentially uh massacring individuals uh indiscriminately.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the result uh has been, the estimate now is at least 1400 deaths and thousands and thousands of serious injuries.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe right now the number of hostages which were taken uh by these individuals back into Gaza is around 220.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh actually uh there has been nothing like this that took place uh between Gaza and Israel prior to Saturday, October the 7th.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um so yeah, that definitely sets it apart to from these other small attacks.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_04: Has Israel ever struck Hamas in such a way like this uh previously?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and on occasion, uh, whenever there is an uptick uh in in these attacks from Gaza into southern Israel, uh the IDF, the Israeli Defense Forces, have responded.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it and usually it's in terms of uh of air uh campaigns that are designed and and support, and we understand this, that those campaigns are always designed uh to uh to eliminate the uh the capability of Hamas uh in Gaza to actually launch these attacks.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and there was a particularly heavy period of time in 2008, uh, when Gaza was just a hotbed of uh launching of uh of attacks.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and in this case, over the years, the sophistication of those uh rockets and even missiles that were being launched from Hamas into Israel, uh the sophistication was increased significantly.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And now uh those uh rockets uh and projectiles were not only reaching the very southern part of Israel, but they were reaching uh further north all the way up into Tel Aviv and even in Jerusalem.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: I know this firsthand because my wife and I were actually in Jerusalem.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we were driving from Elat, uh the southernmost part of Israel, uh, and arriving in Jerusalem, uh, checking into our hotel when the air aid sirens went off, because rockets had been launched from uh from Gaza and had reached uh around us uh in Jerusalem and uh and the surrounding areas.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so yes.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Has been going on a long time, and Israel always responds, but always the response is not, and it's important to state this the response is not punishment of the people of Gaza.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: The response is always to try to uh to eliminate the threat that Hamas poses to Israel.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly that is true of this present air campaign that is going on in Gaza as a result of what took place on October 7th.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_04: So you're saying it's largely a defensive response so that uh there are not uh further attacks on Israel.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: Is that correct?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I would have to say that without without question, uh every time there is a mission that is ordered into Gaza by uh the IAF, the Israeli Air Force, uh, or the IDF, the Israeli Defense Force, every time it is a defensive response.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: It is not even a um a preemptive response.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it is not even proactive.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it is actually a defensive response.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you this: that had it not been for the events of October 7th, there would not be any air campaign going on uh uh by by the Israeli forces, and there certainly would not be the plan of any uh ground invasion by the IDF.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh the reason for all of this is because of what took place on October 7th.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_04: There's been another group that's uh mentioned in the news uh besides Hamas, um, and that's the group Hezbollah.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_04: Uh can you tell us the difference between these two uh uh groups?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, uh Hezbollah, again, the name um actually um means uh the army of Allah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so, of course, uh the as the name would indicate, Hezbollah is a militant Islamic group um worshipping Allah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh of course, Hezbollah for the most part uh does not operate in the southern part of Israel, uh, but ra uh which would be Gaza Strip, uh, but Hezbollah actually operates uh primarily these days out of southern Lebanon, keeping in mind that Israel uh borders Lebanon on the north.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so southern Lebanon is a place where Hezbollah is extremely active.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what we have to understand is that the attacks of Hamas are coming uh from the south into Israel in the south, whereas Hezbollah having the same strategy uh as Hamas, and that would be uh to terrorize Israel and to actually eliminate uh Israel uh so as to take uh control um of Israel.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so we we have to understand that these attacks are coming from southern Lebanon into the northern part of Israel.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And again, uh rockets, uh in many cases, many more rockets and much more sophistication.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: The difference between the two groups is that uh Hezbollah uh has definitely been a proxy of Iran.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: That is to say that uh that uh the support of Hezbollah and everything they do and all of their equipment and all of their uh their capabilities are essentially bankrolled uh and supported, training and and other ways by Iran.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so what we have is a situation where Israel has enemies attacking them.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're talking about uh terrorist enemies attacking them from the south in the form of Hamas and from Hezbollah attacking from the north.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the difference between the two groups is an interesting difference, and that is that uh that when we think about uh about two different uh major uh divisions within Islam, within the Muslim religion uh in the Middle East, we have to understand that those two major groups are Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and the interesting thing is that uh they don't always get along very well.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now I'm happy to say that when it comes to us Christians, we always get along very, very well.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm speaking sarcastically, of course.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but uh within Islam, uh the the Sunnis and the Shias do not always get along very well.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Hamas is actually Sunni Muslim, uh, and Hezbollah is actually Shia Muslim, and of course, Iran is Shia Muslim.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so the connection between Iran and Hezbollah is very close because they come from the same, uh, from the same base within Islam, but they have a common enemy and a common purpose.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that common enemy is Israel, and that common purpose is, dare I say, the the elimination of Israel so that uh Palestine can be under the control of Palestinians and ultimately under Islamic control.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if that happens, uh the real question is, will it be Shia or uh or Sunni?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's something to be debated in the future.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: But uh so we have those two groups, and uh and and they they don't always get along uh with each other, uh, but they they have this one common common purpose.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's important for us to keep in mind.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_04: Well, right now, people in northern Gaza are fleeing uh to the south.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um, how difficult is this uh migration uh in such a densely populated area of the world?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's incredibly difficult because um, you know, I've I've heard the number estimated um at a million people or over.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, the total population of Gaza Strip is 2.1 million.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the concentration of those people is largely in the north, a very, very small area.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and um and so it could be at least a million people.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, there are 650,000 people living in Gaza City alone.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and the Israeli um Israelis have warned uh residents of Gaza City specifically, and others in the northern part of Gaza, that the Strip, that they should move south.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: But imagine the difficulty of in a small area like that, the sheer number of people uh who are having to leave.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: They've been told by Israelis to leave because of the impending uh ground operation of Israel and continuing uh air attacks.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: However, uh there's pretty good information that suggests that Hamas itself is actually restricting the movement of their own people because they want them to stay.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: And they want them to stay in the area because it is the strategy of Hamas to actually use people as a human shield, as human shields, uh, knowing that uh that if if the Israeli forces strike um against Hamas installations, and those installations happen to be in the midst of uh of civilians, of uh Palestinians living in Gaza, uh, that there will be extensive collateral damage and and on the world stage of opinion, uh that will be uh viewed as um as a terrible thing that that Israel has done in the loss of innocent life.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a strategy there.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Even so, there are people who are trying to leave.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we do know that there's one crossing uh between Gaza and Egypt.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh obviously, Gazans are not allowed now to come into Israel across a border crossing, and there is actually only one border crossing between uh Gaza and Israel, but there's one border crossing between Gaza and Egypt.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and uh and that it's called the Rafah crossing.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and there's severe restriction of how many Gazans are actually allowed to cross over into Egypt.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Quite frankly, part of that would be because Egypt is not interested in receiving an enormous number of uh of refugees from Gaza.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an extremely complex situation, and and it's one that causes us to uh to just uh be so deeply, deeply concerned about the people of Gaza.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm saying the people of Gaza who are not uh direct participants with Hamas.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're talking about those who are truly innocent uh civilians who are suffering terribly now and are going to continue to suffer terribly.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Frankly, ever since Hamas took over Gaza in 2006, the people have been suffering.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but uh but the suffering is going to continue.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and I can assure you that the the believers in Israel, I'm talking about Jewish and Arab believers in Israel proper.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, many of them uh know uh people in Gaza uh who are suffering and are going to suffer.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and they're deeply concerned about the welfare of those individuals and and pray for their protection and for God's provision for them.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_04: We're probably on the precipice of uh some very uh large conflicts.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, how long of a war do you expect between uh Israel and Hamas and uh why?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_04: How long why will you come up with that uh amount of time?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: The anticipation, of course, of a ground operation is that it is going to be incredibly difficult.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh as the idea of ground forces move in.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: It will be Gaza City.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Again, we've talked about how how densely populated it is.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and uh and Hamas has carefully uh protected itself within Gaza City.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and even now, when this ground operation is being delayed, part of the um the activity that is going on is actually Hamas's preparation for uh a ground operation by Israel, which means that there are going to be uh uh IEDs, improved uh explosive, uh improvised explosive devices.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there are going to be booby traps set in buildings uh all over the place.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you we no doubt know, and you our listeners have no doubt heard that there is an incredible network of tunnels, approximately 300 miles of tunnels, subterranean passages that have been constructed under uh the Gaza Strip and specifically Gaza City, where Hamas can be uh hiding and locating.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it's going to be urban warfare by the IDF.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this is something that is going to take an extended period of time.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so there's no real anticipation that this is going to be a short conflict.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we always think in terms of the Six-Day War in 1967, which uh which, of course, it was thought would be a prolonged conflict, and it was over in six days.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, humanly speaking, it's hard to imagine that this conflict can be over uh in in a brief time at all.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: However, we have to remember God is able to do amazing things.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that our prayer should be that God would move in such a way that this would not be an extended, prolonged conflict.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea how that could how that could be possible, but I do know that God does the impossible, and and that's really what we need to hope for and pray for.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's perhaps a good note uh to end this uh uh sobering podcast on.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_04: We're so thankful for you taking the time, and we certainly wish uh you and uh your family the best with uh your contacts uh uh that you have there in uh in Gaza as well as Israel, and uh we will join you for prayers for peace uh for this area of the world.
• 34:17
  unknown: Thank you, Ryan.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, thank you very much.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and might I add just one thing, and that is um particularly we need to pray for the for the believers uh in in Israel and in Gaza.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we need to pray for uh for certainly Jewish believers, and there is a growing number of Jewish believers in Israel, uh, but we also need to be praying for the Arab believers in Israel, and there is a a significant number of those, and uh for Arab believers uh in in Gaza, not just Arab believers, but people in general in Gaza.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and at the same time, we have to understand that these horrific circumstances can provide wonderful opportunities uh for believers to share that that the only real source of lasting peace is faith, a common faith uh in Jesus.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and that's really what we're hoping for and praying for.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for sharing uh uh this with us, uh Roger.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_04: And we certainly wish you uh the best and uh uh join in prayer with you for uh the peace in the series.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for the opportunity to just share these things and God bless you.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sure most of our listeners have been uh moved by uh our uh discussion about um conflict and we'll just close with a brief prayer for peace in this world.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_04: Father in heaven, uh we know you are God of peace and we know that there are innocent people in the midst of uh conflict uh between nations.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_04: We pray for them to say we know please look after them.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_04: And we also pray for a life peace uh in this area in the world.