Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 97: How to Stay Connected to Your Kids After Betrayal

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97: How to Stay Connected to Your Kids After Betrayal · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

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Everybody. So I recently had the chance to
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join Alana and Amy on their podcast as part of their series
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on parenting through betrayal. And in this conversation, we
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talked specifically about how to stay connected with your kids
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after betrayal trauma. So both from my personal journey
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and from the work that I do with clients, this was a really
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productive conversation that the three of us had.
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And we did get a lot of good feedback on this episode.
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So I wanted to share it with you all here as well.
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Just in case you haven't heard it.
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I know some of you are connected to both podcasts, and I think
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there's some really good stuff that happened in this
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conversation and would love your feedback anyway, so let's jump
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into it. Welcome to Beyond the Facade
0:40
podcast. I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and
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I'm thrilled to have you join me in the space today.
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What we're going to be doing is diving deep into the trials and
0:47
triumphs and truths of seeking authenticity.
0:51
Becoming your true self isn't about a single action or a
0:53
moment. It's a relentless pursuit, a
0:56
commitment to self that reveals a rich connection and meaning
0:59
that our life has to offer. So whether this is your first
1:02
time tuning in or you're a regular listener, know this.
1:05
What you're building here goes beyond a conversation.
1:08
You're here to challenge, to change, and to celebrate the
1:10
incredible journey of becoming your authentic self.
1:14
Because when you dare to show up fully, the rewards are
1:16
immeasurable. So welcome to Beyond the Facade.
1:19
Let's get started. Welcome everyone, thank you for
1:24
joining the podcast today and welcome our guest Luke Gordon
1:28
joining the conversation today and we're so I'm always grateful
1:32
when Luke you join our conversation today.
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It just adds to such a richness to the conversation and
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appreciate your willingness to always do this.
1:40
We Alafa you and I did not expect this to be a now four
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part series to a conversation that started with our wonderful
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guest, Elia Markham. And really we just kept talking
1:55
about offline Alana, you and I more and more perspectives or
1:59
areas that we can continue this conversation.
2:02
So it's cool to see it unravel this way.
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And what one other way that I think is going to be really
2:09
valuable and why we wanted to have Luke come join the
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conversation today is to maybe tag team a little bit off of
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Hannah's amazing conversation with some of the things, Luke,
2:21
that she talked about with you and what was really helpful for
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her as a daughter navigating this betrayal with parents.
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And she she mentioned a lot of those things that you had done
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and ways that you showed up that were really beneficial to her.
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I know y'all, before we hit record, we talked about
2:41
different things that we might touch on today, but my brain is
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just going to this, so we'll go with it.
2:45
But Luke, I'm going to turn it over to you is I would love for
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you to share your side of what Hannah was talking about.
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And just as a refresher to our audience, remember Hannah was
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talking about how she felt like you, Luke, allowed her to be mad
3:06
at you and allowed her to, as she even called it a little
3:09
passive aggressive, which I might challenge that on her a
3:11
little bit. But just being mad, being angry
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and pushing back. And even she was able to unpack
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that a little bit more of acknowledging it was really her
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just standing up for her truth and having boundaries.
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But that's that I think is going to be rare.
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And I would imagine that a lot of listeners who heard her say
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that would be like, oh, if my partner would only how does one
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get there to show up in that space for their child?
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I think hopefully this can make sense.
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She is her mother's daughter. Hannah is her own person.
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OK, so first of all. But so much of Alana is Hannah
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and so much Hannah is Alana. Like they are very similar and
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in some ways and where they're similar is they are very strong
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and they do have a voice. And it's my opportunity to not
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squash that voice every time I get defensive or feeling like
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I'm insecure. And I think I'd gone through
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stuff with Alana that helped me understand how to recognize that
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it wasn't about me, that what she was experiencing, even
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though it was my behavior. And so, and it was, it was hard
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to sit with her because she can ask very poignant, direct
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questions and she can feel very, I don't know if I want to say
4:38
Bill strongly, but she can say certain words and then they,
4:42
they, they hurt. And she can send messages that
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are very important to her to send.
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And I just remember going like when she started to have a voice
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going, OK, I've done this before.
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Like I've been here before. I remember Alana expressing
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things and feeling certain things.
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And I'm like, I can do this. And and then having it be
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different at the same time too, because love my family, love my
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parents, but it's definitely a respect your elders type of an
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experience. They'll pay attention to kids
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emotions, pay attention to mom and dad's emotions, cater to
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those. So when she did feel, I did find
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myself drawn back of she'd say something really direct or ask a
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question that heard or whatever it was for me to, I don't know,
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wince and then go on a recoil and go, wait, I'm I'm the boss,
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like I'm the parent. Like, can you say that?
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Can you do that? And I think just recognizing
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that she was speaking from a place of hurt and wanting to
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connect and that I was able to stay grounded through a lot of
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it. And I, I was, I was lucky to you
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all because she was a therapist for a mom and she's always done
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a lot of work herself to process through things.
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Well, she. Has a therapist for her mom.
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And then she had an amazing life coach who just happened to be
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her mom's best friend who is also working with her.
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And she has done a lot of her own journaling and she's done
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some other work outside of all of that.
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So that girl has put in effort. And I just want to like,
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highlight not all teenagers want to do that.
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Yeah. And so we're talking
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specifically about Hannah's experience, but because she was
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in a place to open up that door, it did allow for some
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conversation that when it happened, if she didn't do some
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of that work. So I, I just wanted like make a
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quick disclaimer really quick that there's so many different
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ways we could have this conversation.
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There's so many different teenagers and their own
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personalities and their own experiences.
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There's so many different ways a mom might be showing up or a dad
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might be showing up, or the family system is laid out that
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this might not be your exact story as you're listening to
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this or might not even remotely be similar.
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But we'll talk about today some of the generalized ideas that
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may apply to different parts. So I just want to give that
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quick disclaimer. Around and I think I think the
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thing that I'm hearing, like you say that I would imagine is
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fairly common is that here you have a child, let's say you you
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have a child that is wanting answers from you or that's
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wanting to have a voice or it's wanting to express how they feel
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because they know about the betrayal.
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What I'm hearing you acknowledge is that that was hard.
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There were parts of you that pushed back.
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There were parts that was like, wait a second, should you be
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asking me this or should I just like put you in your place?
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Like should I even be having this conversation with you?
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And I just I think that alone also is something that I I feel
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like can be really common. Even as you said, Alana, there
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might be different nuances and how that shows up.
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But just I guess giving a normalcy to that part of you
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that as the dad and the father to be like, whoa, this is
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probably felt like a weird conversation to have.
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Or even I don't want to put words in your mouth, the awkward
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weird or like you said, questioning.
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Wait a second, Do we need to be having this conversation or
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should you just like go back to your quote place so that that I
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would I would imagine pricks or Shane to have even some of that
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stuff questioned by a child. Well, and can I throw in really
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quick an important piece that betrayed partners have a similar
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experience too, where I've seen my partners get triggered that
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their children have a response. And when they're in their
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logical brain, they're going like, yeah, of course my child's
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having a response. But sometimes when they're
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feeling all of their own pain and then their child's having
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that pain and they have to go tend to their child, sometimes
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I've heard in the privacy of my office those feelings of like,
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what the hell, I was the one who was betrayed, not you.
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Like, you don't get to feel this way.
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Why are you reacting just as big as me?
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And that's, that's the pain and the trauma speaking.
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But I just want to like put that out that sometimes both parents,
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they don't want to feel that these levels of discomfort and
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it still can prick our own stuff that's unhealed.
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Yeah. And can I, can I bring up one
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thing before it gets away that I want to say that I'd regret if
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it didn't? There are two things that I'm
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after in this dialogue with any of my children, which is
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attunement. Can I, can I be with them and
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whatever they're feeling and can I be consistent in that?
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Consistent and, and vulnerable myself, like vulnerable myself
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and letting myself be seen. And that's, that's what I'm
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after. I would hate for this podcast to
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get done and go like, what was I trying to accomplish?
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It was those two things and then letting her navigate it because
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gosh, every single one of my kids are different in how
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they've handled and reacted to this.
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Like Hannah's large, she has a voice, she's strong and my other
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kids are strong too. But my boys, I'm like, I wish
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sometimes I'm like, want them to like it's OK to be mad at me.
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Like bring something to me because I know you feel it.
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So they're they're just going to respond differently.
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And and it's and also, gosh, we talk about all the time, like in
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disclosures, like, guess what? You still get asked questions
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after disclosure days. Stuff still gets to come up.
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You still get to keep processing.
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But especially with kids, like it didn't mean something to them
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early on, some of them. But then guess what?
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Then when they started dating, then it meant something
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different. And when I got older, different
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development parts of their life, then it like, wait, dad did
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What? Are you kidding me?
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So recognizing the yeah, I don't get to choose my consequences.
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And this is, this is going to go on for the rest of our lives to
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a certain extent. And I, and I hope it does,
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because if I don't get to hear about it, it means we don't have
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a relationship. So.
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I like what you said right there because it's so true.
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And I can, I can vouch for that as I watch my kids navigate
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this. And my kids didn't get the
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father owning, acknowledging and repairing with mom and repairing
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the kids. And so you're right, it carries
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on. And the age, I think we talked a
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little bit about this with Elliott, but like the age that
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they're at when the original betrayal happens, but also the
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older they get in the more context they may get or want to
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to know all of that matters. And I've seen the same thing to
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the older mind get when they get into relationships, they have
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different questions or the questions they had maybe at 15
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that they now have at 28 are so richer, so much richer, so much
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more personal. Excuse me.
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And so you're right. If that conversation doesn't
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happen, it means there's something in the relationship
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safety wise, it isn't happening. And so we want that to continue.
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And I like that you said that, Luke, because I think on some
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level, and I'll speak for myself, on some level, the part
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of me almost wanted it to not like to go away.
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Like when will it not be brought out or when will it be over?
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When will it be healed period? We hear that a lot with our
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clients too. When can we just, and even some
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of the betrayers, like, can we just shove it under the rug and
12:41
start over, wipe the slate clean and move forward?
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It doesn't work that way. Yeah, and it's just it's just
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ever reach, never expanding. Like I got.
12:50
I got like right now what I'm experiencing since Hannah was
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vocal with her experience, I feel like apologizing to her
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boyfriend, like I'm like, dude, like you have to deal with a
12:59
bunch of stuff relationally that you didn't do, but it's it's
13:03
just ever reaching. So not forgetting that that it's
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ever reaching and ever impactful, but in good ways and
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bad. Like I'm watching Hannah show up
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and break patterns that existed generationally beyond Alana and
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I where it's like, I'm not going to demonize at all that
13:19
recognize. Hey, one of the things that I
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wanted to mention real quick too, was my boys way different
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than my girls. I don't know if this is true,
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but this is what it feels like today or lately.
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That vulnerability piece with the with the, with the my boys
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compared to my girls, they, they, it's easier for them to
13:34
tap into vulnerability. My girls are like a sense of
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that they'll be vulnerable. My boys, I really have to lead
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with it. Like I have to lead with
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vulnerability with them. Like I have to show up myself,
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strip myself down on what my experience, what I'm feeling
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without putting it on them. Yeah.
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Can we talk about that piece? Because I actually wrote that
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down earlier. You said letting myself be seen.
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And there's such a fine balance that we have to do as parents of
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allowing that authenticity and letting ourselves be seen as
14:09
appropriate, but also not putting it on our children.
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Because I've seen this multiple times.
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I have an individual who's starting to really work their
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recovery. They're learning about
14:20
authenticity, learning to be seen.
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And then in the attempts to be authentic and roll with their
14:26
child, they don't even realize, but they're just emotionally
14:29
dumping on their child who does not have the skills or the
14:34
ability or the emotional bandwidth to hold that, nor
14:37
should they be right. The parent shouldn't be dumping
14:40
that on a child. And so that I feel like can be a
14:45
really tricky place. Like I see that pendulum where
14:47
they go from one side being really shut off and then they
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swing really far the other side, which is really jarring to a
14:55
child. And to a child, a lot of times
14:58
they're like, Oh my gosh, like my parents confiding in me.
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So there's an attachment part that's like, this is nice.
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But then at the same time they're like, but why do I feel
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so crappy after? Why do I feel so heavy and they
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they can't make sense of that This, this right here, I think
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is such an important piece, this.
15:16
Is the this is the difference between parentifying and like
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appropriate child parent relationship?
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And Amy, I've watched you demonstrated actually really
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well. In fact, I often think of your
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example of showing up with your kids and saying, hey, I'm
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experiencing this emotion. It's important for me to voice
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that, but that's mine. It's my responsibility to handle
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that emotion. Like, not yours, not your
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responsibility. I got it.
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I got me right? I got me.
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So I think there's a version of that with my boys, which is like
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being able to lead with vulnerability of hey, like I'm,
15:45
I'm noticing I really want to connect with you.
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That's my responsibility to notice that connection that I
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want to have with you and I want to be open and I'm feeling that
15:52
desire to connect with you. But also you got your space and
15:55
your time that you want to connect and have conversations
15:57
that are bigger. How do you feel about having a
15:59
conversation right now? I'd like to be connected to you,
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but it's OK to not connect right now around this because what do
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I want to do? I want to take my pain and my
16:07
experience of my journey and my healing and I want to pull it
16:09
into their world. Maybe they're not ready for it,
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like great, maybe they're not. Maybe it's, it's checking in
16:15
with them and these kids like they, they are the experts on
16:19
their lives, right? They are the experts on their
16:21
bodies, on what they knowing they feel.
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My job is just to be attune enough to know to be their
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present for that. Yeah, my oldest definitely had
16:30
the I used to joke she's got the satellite dishes and just they
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just beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
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And she could like hear everything and pick up on sense
16:39
everything. And, and it was very much like
16:41
what you described. Ilana, she was very convincing
16:45
early on that she needed to know all the things and, and I bought
16:50
into that and thank goodness that my therapist helped me re
16:56
re route, re route, re route. And what I have since learned is
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that when your children ask you questions about your experience,
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whether it's you, the betrayer or the betrayed, they're asking
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you questions to ask at least one, if not 2 questions back to
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your child's first before answering.
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Oftentimes what they're asking isn't what you think they're
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asking, really isn't what they're asking.
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And I can so see that especially with my girls, they're the older
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ones. If I would go.
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Well, OK, I totally hear what you're asking there.
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But tell me this. What are you hoping to get out
17:38
of my my response? What are you feeling?
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What's the emotion behind that question?
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And even if they don't necessarily answer that, you're
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going to get more processing from them.
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And then you might want to ask another question.
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Oh, well, where did that come from?
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Tell me where you got that idea. And you keep asking.
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You might get 9 times out of 10 what they really want to know.
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And most of the time our kids, what they really want to know
18:08
revolves around them, not you. And that's what I see a lot of
18:13
parents get roped into is that their kids are asking questions
18:16
about them and then they answer about them and now we're
18:19
completely dumping on them. But I think if you can dig a
18:23
little bit deeper, you might find that they're really needing
18:26
to know something about them in their world, their impact.
18:31
Now you know how to answer and it's not about you.
18:35
And you're not even needing to share all these details that I
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think a lot of people worry if my kid answers, how do I answer?
18:42
And they're thinking about how do I answer these details of my
18:44
story. No, you're going to be
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answering, I think, something totally different when you
18:50
really understand what they were asking.
18:53
OK. So yes, I love that you said
18:58
like what they really need to know is about them.
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And this is where I want to just put, I was doing some case
19:05
consulting the other day and there was a family and you had
19:08
two parents who are doing work like really wanting to heal and
19:12
do this right. And so there was a question
19:16
around we want to talk to our kids.
19:20
How do we go about that? And ultimately, and I've seen
19:24
this multiple times in multiple families, the kids were mad at
19:28
mom. They were mad at mom because mom
19:30
wasn't being available and mom was having big feelings.
19:33
And and then they look at dad as dad's being picked on by mom,
19:38
but they don't understand the back story.
19:40
And so I'll see these parents, sometimes one of them, sometimes
19:44
both of them are like, we need to help the kids understand
19:48
mom's experience and why mom's behaving the way that she is or
19:52
they are. And when we really, in this
19:55
case, consulting, dove deeper and deeper into it, what I
20:00
realized is they were trying to go into this conversation about
20:06
themselves. And anytime we do that as
20:09
parents, that becomes problematic because a child's
20:12
brain is already hardwired to be about me.
20:17
And can do like I did something wrong.
20:20
I'm somehow the problem in here subconsciously that can be
20:22
running in the background. And so I was trying to help this
20:28
individual who's going to be working with this family see the
20:32
need for it to shift to be more about what do the kids need?
20:36
What information do they need and, and at what level are we
20:41
coming at this to help take care of the kids and then to make
20:45
room for those additional questions?
20:47
Because the minute we switch that from what do you want them
20:50
to know and what do you need them to understand?
20:52
Because guess what? That's making it all about you
20:55
and your needs, not theirs. And switching it to what is age
20:59
appropriate? What do they need?
21:00
What's their individual personality?
21:03
All of a sudden, the words that we use and the message it was we
21:07
convey can dramatically shift, and the level of damage to our
21:12
children decreases the more we're able to shift that
21:17
perspective. It's hard as hell.
21:20
Like I just want to say like, this is one of the hardest
21:22
things that I think I've had to process in therapy is not
21:26
because I want so badly my kids to understand and know like This
21:32
is why you feel like I checked out when I was really depressed
21:35
or This is why it wasn't because I wasn't wanting to show her be
21:39
a good mom. It's because he like I
21:41
understand. So I just want to validate how
21:45
breaking hard that is. And those of you brains are
21:47
like, but but but This is why you've got to go do your work.
21:51
Other people, they're safe. People need to validate.
21:53
You need to validate you, not your children.
21:56
We're going to take a quick break for a moment.
21:58
I want to let you know of some things that we have coming up at
22:00
Choose Recovery Services. Hi everyone, I am excited to
22:06
tell you about a new group that's coming to choose Recovery
22:09
Services. It's run by Luke Gordon and
22:12
Scott Blundo and it's called Making Sense of His Behavior.
22:16
This group is for women and it's an 8 week group, just $25 a week
22:23
to come and learn the why he does what he does.
22:27
They're going to dive into things like compulsive behavior,
22:31
secrecy, shame, emotional and maturity, what real recovery and
22:36
healing looks like, and also for you, how to find clarity and
22:41
stability Again, the reason I love this so much is when you
22:46
start to understand the why at a deeper level, it helps you not
22:50
internalize those behaviors. So it can be really freeing for
22:53
you. If this sounds like something
22:55
that you would be interested in or that you're needing, join us.
23:00
Choose Recovery services.com. Let's get back to our episode.
23:07
Luke, I have a question for you to tag off what Ilana said there
23:10
because I think you're right, Ilana, I think a lot of women
23:13
betrayed partners get blamed and take the brunt of their
23:17
children's emotional experience with all of this.
23:21
I see this even after divorce, like the the moms still take
23:25
huge part of the brunt of this. Luke, what would you say?
23:28
Like what do you have to say about that dynamic where betray
23:32
partners are getting the brunt of this?
23:35
Just curious your thoughts there.
23:36
Yeah, the Petray partners are getting the brunt of the bad
23:39
guy. With mom, yeah, like with kids.
23:42
Like kids are more mad at mom and dad sometimes.
23:47
Yeah, I'd just be like working with him genderizing, because
23:50
that's who I typically work with.
23:53
How open and transparent are you?
23:55
Every child is going to be different, meeting them where
23:57
they're out of what they need, but how transparent are you with
23:59
how? How how many secrets there are,
24:02
if you're self protecting, if you're hiding, if you're like, I
24:04
don't want people to know. I don't want family to know.
24:07
I don't want to ever. Like I don't know an unfiltered,
24:11
unregulated space that I'm in as professionals, not very useful,
24:15
but it tells you how I feel about it, which is like, it's
24:17
your kids like get get over yourself.
24:19
Be real with what's happened because your kids need real.
24:22
So you got to get to a place where you're real.
24:24
And then that kind of what that impacts is if you're, if you're
24:27
still hiding in secrecy and you're afraid of what your kids
24:29
are going to know and what they're going to find out and
24:31
don't make me look bad. That makes a lot of sense why
24:34
your partner's the bad guy because you're still for self
24:37
protecting. You're still trying to come out
24:38
as the, the good guy. Let's let truth be, let's not
24:42
just go dump it on your kids. Let's not go, hey, let me give
24:45
you my Step 4 inventory or my Full disclosure document.
24:48
But let's let's let truth be of of of I hurt her.
24:54
I did. She's not behaving erratically
24:58
or crazy. Like, let me speak to you with
25:01
truth and then meet that child where they're at with what kind
25:04
of questions and then navigate this to the professional right.
25:08
And and yeah, get real about what transparent.
25:11
And then, and then guess what, even when you do, certain kids
25:14
are still going to be mad at mom.
25:16
Like they're still going to be mad because they're not ready
25:18
for a dynamic that exists of, of I don't know whatever else is
25:22
going on. So because I have seen that
25:24
before where a guy does show up and he's like, OK, transparent,
25:28
let me tell you, I've cheated on your mom.
25:29
Let me tell you that I've I've messed up, I've screwed up.
25:32
And somehow some reason the dynamic still exists that she's
25:36
the bad guy and it's still parents.
25:38
And I'm, I'm sorry, the betrayed partner and Amy and Alana helped
25:41
me out with this. But there are kids.
25:43
It's not their responsibility to cater to us.
25:47
And we don't have to be perceived a certain way in their
25:49
eyes. Like it's our responsibility to
25:51
get our needs met in other ways, like to fill that.
25:55
And I don't know, I'm not a mom. I don't know what that look that
25:58
looks like when your kids are viewing you as a bad guy, when
26:00
you've literally bore them. You've given everything of your
26:03
life to them. But still, it's it's about us
26:06
giving them what they need, not about us getting our emotional
26:08
needs met through them. So I thought, I want to say
26:12
sorry if you hate me through that, that, that answer.
26:14
But yeah. No, I think that makes sense.
26:18
What I'm hearing in that is the that when there is a lack of
26:21
transparency still happening from the betrayer, it can kids
26:25
are again, like, where do I put this?
26:27
And you're trying to make logical sense maybe of it.
26:30
And if they're here, if they're seeing mom in whatever state.
26:35
This is so nuanced, by the way. Like my brain just went to like
26:37
40 different scenarios honestly. So nuanced.
26:41
Like how this is playing out so it feels like.
26:44
Almost like I just want to have pause and hit all 40.
26:48
Not possible. But it's just it just makes
26:51
sense why this is so complicated and such a big topic and why
26:55
we're making this like 4 parts and we're going to be like
26:59
making five parts because there's so many complexities to
27:02
this. But again, yeah, Luke, I agree.
27:05
Can. I jump in there Amy real quick.
27:07
There's that part that we can keep super simple, which is what
27:10
are the kids not need instead of what are the parents need.
27:13
That's the part that can stay simple, I think, which is whose
27:16
needs are being dressed. Kids needs had to be have to be
27:18
put first, right? And sometimes what they need is
27:22
less information. Sometimes they need more
27:24
information. And that's the part that I I
27:27
feel like can stay simple even though the answer doesn't feel
27:30
good. Yes, because if you can
27:32
understand again, where like what is it that they're most
27:36
afraid of? One thing that popped in my mind
27:38
when you were talking that I think relates to a lot of the
27:41
clients I work with who are moving through divorce is
27:45
they're feeling the fear of the, the separation as well and
27:51
losing. They're experiencing that loss
27:53
and that grief of loss with typically it's done out.
27:57
And so that their attachment wound is getting activated all
28:01
subconscious. So they're going into the what
28:03
can I do to hold on? You get a lot of the lack of
28:07
transparency like you mentioned, and then love bombing from that,
28:11
that dad and then guess who gets the brunt?
28:15
Guess who gets all of the real raw emotions?
28:18
Mom, and it gets interpreted as they love him more than me.
28:23
They don't they understand him. They believe him.
28:25
It's no, no, no, no, no. It's so much deeper than that.
28:30
There. There could potentially not
28:32
always be that part of him. That's like, how do I hold on to
28:38
this person? And if this person's buying me
28:41
right now, taking it, I mean, even Hannah alluded to that a
28:45
little bit, right? Like, oh, you're good.
28:46
Yep. Books.
28:48
I'm taking it if this is how I'm going to feel connected and seen
28:52
right now, Like, OK, so I don't know if you knew she talked
28:56
about that, Luke. No, I had to.
28:59
I had, I had dialogue. Maybe this can be fun.
29:02
But right away when the betrayal hit, it was like, hey, Hannah,
29:09
how are you? And she was like, take me
29:11
shopping, dad. And I'm like, what the hell?
29:14
Are you kidding me? I, I hurt your mom and I hurt
29:18
you and you want me to take you shopping?
29:19
And I was mad about that, that that's what she wanted because
29:23
first of all, I'm afraid of being taken advantage of as a
29:24
human. That's my insecurity right now.
29:27
My child like craps coming up and I'm like, and then it just,
29:32
it's a whole finally dynamic thing.
29:33
But she what she was trying to do right there, which I did not
29:36
understand the time was take her power back.
29:38
She was trying to go, Hey, dad, do you, do you, do you value me?
29:45
Do you do you, are you willing to do something that's hard for
29:48
me? Are you willing to spend time
29:50
with me? And this is something I want to
29:51
voice. And that's that's scary for me.
29:53
And like, let's see if you really show up.
29:55
And and So what was in what was interesting is is my I just, I
30:00
don't know if you know this or not, but our oldest, he was
30:03
like, what the hell was Hannah doing?
30:05
That's bull crap. Like asking you to take her like
30:08
shopping, like taking, taking you shopping.
30:10
Like I think he'd probably would have liked for that too, but
30:12
didn't feel like he was safe enough to ask for that.
30:14
I was. Just going to say he was
30:15
probably jealous that he didn't get a shopping trip.
30:18
His shopping trip would be for cars though.
30:20
They have they have different budgets.
30:21
Never survived it. I would love her to be a Barnes
30:25
and Noble compared to Ferrari. So yeah, that my only my only
30:31
thought to even saying that was is these kids all respond
30:34
differently. And and Amy, you got goosebumps
30:37
when you said that goosebumps when it said what our children
30:41
will fight for is is to what's what they'll fight for is to
30:46
make sure they don't lose that connection to us and they'll
30:48
still they'll create all types of maladaptive problematic
30:53
experiences to stay connected to survive.
30:56
But what's their real job that they're trying to do is to go.
30:59
I trust myself. I know myself.
31:01
I like myself. I trust myself.
31:03
So what the cost is of betrayal is that cost of them knowing.
31:08
Am I safe? Can I trust myself?
31:10
So the biggest thing you do, biggest thing I can do as a
31:12
child is let them know they can trust themselves.
31:14
And I'm still here. I'm present.
31:15
No matter what happens with me and your mom, I'm here.
31:17
And let me speak to truth of. Yeah.
31:20
What you felt like, what you felt very strongly about.
31:23
Yeah, I was off. I was making mistakes.
31:25
You're not crazy. Great, I love that because I
31:29
think sometimes parents unknowingly, I don't know if
31:33
unknowingly is the right word, but subconsciously will gaslight
31:38
their children and we don't want to do that and we don't want to
31:42
discount their reality. Something that I was thinking
31:45
about, and I really am hesitant to bring up this point, but I
31:49
think it needs to be said is sometimes kids are mad at the
31:56
the mom because it's safer to be mad at mom.
31:59
And so they're already like, it feels like they're going to lose
32:03
dad. So they're clinging to that.
32:05
But that Ingrid needs to come out or those feelings need to
32:07
come out somewhere. Sometimes that's the case.
32:12
Other times the reality is, is mom didn't give him what they
32:16
needed. Now is that mom's fault?
32:19
No mom surviving their own experience and there's still
32:24
this reality that the kids did not get what they need.
32:28
And so sometimes I will see the parent want so hard to give the
32:33
reason why they couldn't do it and totally bypass still the
32:38
experience in the impact on the child.
32:41
And even though you may not have been at fault for how you needed
32:45
to survive as that parent, we still have a child with an
32:49
impact. And just like with the betrayer,
32:53
the betrayer wants to bypass the impact and focus on intent.
32:59
Sometimes I see that same pattern happen with the mom
33:02
who's been betrayed because she feels so victimized and because
33:05
she was a victim too. But almost this bypassing of the
33:09
child's experience because they weren't necessarily at fault.
33:14
And that is a painful piece that we have to address in another
33:19
like parallel to this or another piece of this is sometimes the
33:23
betrayal pain is so big that that protector part overruns the
33:30
brain and it and it hijacks the brain to where that protective
33:36
part of you as a parent and that nurturing part as a parent isn't
33:40
accessible in the same way. And so I'll see parents like
33:46
their pain is so big that they're making it completely
33:49
about themselves because their brain has been hijacked.
33:53
And that's not a time to be going and talking to the kids.
33:56
And so the child's pain and anger could be actually really
33:59
legit. Again, not because it's her
34:03
fault, but that's still the reality of the child's
34:06
experience. And so part of the parents work
34:11
for the betrayer and the betrayed is to do that emotional
34:15
regulation and do that work so you can see your child's
34:19
experience and not internalize your child's experience.
34:25
Let them have the experience they're having having and not
34:28
talk them out of it, not tell them the way that they're seeing
34:31
it is wrong, but be with them and see their experience.
34:36
And I'll just say, when your pain is too big, your ability to
34:39
do that, the bigger the pain sometimes the less your ability
34:43
to do that is. And I'm sorry for partners if
34:47
you just heard that. And that was really painful, but
34:50
I think it's important truth that you need to know.
34:52
It is. It is because you're going to
34:54
feel stuck and you're going to risk that relationship falling
35:00
by the wayside and children needing to create boundaries
35:05
because I guarantee their therapist is going to be helping
35:07
them create boundaries until you can emotionally regulate to hold
35:10
space and validate it. It's I'm, I know, I know it's
35:14
hard to hear, but I, I really think it's important that you
35:17
brought that up. This is again, not fair that
35:24
you're in this position. And I'm just going to say that
35:26
it, it's not fair. We're not trying to say that it
35:30
is or any of that. And I love how you validated,
35:36
you didn't know, you didn't 'cause this and they are
35:40
impacted and their impact needs to be validated and heard first.
35:44
So. And they're going to look to you
35:47
as our primary attachment for that healing, for that Co
35:51
regulation, for that sense of safety and stability because
35:54
they're hardwired too. Absolutely.
35:56
You can't do this on your own. Like, I hope you're getting
35:59
that. Like this is so complex and
36:03
challenging and nuanced that you cannot do it on your own.
36:06
Don't think that you should be able to figure this out on your
36:08
own. That right there, like I want
36:10
that to be heard. Like you're not lacking or weak
36:14
or missing something in some way that you can't figure this out
36:18
on your own. Please go and get help.
36:20
And there are a lot of places that will do family therapy, so
36:24
where you can bring kids in and and that can be mediated so that
36:27
you're not doing this on your own.
36:29
Look into something like that as well.
36:32
It's important enough to get to get the help to support you in
36:35
this. I, I feel like, OK, I'm going to
36:41
plug Morgan's podcast. The fact that Morgan has an
36:43
entire podcast around this, I think today, at least in my
36:48
yeah. And my own system just validated
36:50
that because I feel like we could have done like 15
36:54
different episodes on each of these little topics, and they're
36:57
still like, so much more. I would love to dive into, but
37:01
for the sake of time, go listen to Morgan's podcast.
37:04
But Luke, can I invite you specifically to talk to the
37:09
person who has betrayed? And just what message would you
37:13
give them as they're navigating this right now and they have
37:16
kids, whether adult kids or young kids?
37:18
Like what's your message for them?
37:21
Yeah, How do you want to be remembered?
37:23
Like how do you want to show when you die?
37:24
Like how do you want to show you responded to all this?
37:28
Like how do you know? Do you screw for fixing it?
37:32
Screw it getting better? How do you want to show up today
37:34
in the middle of that when you when, what do you want your
37:37
child to experience? I don't know.
37:39
That's the first thing that comes to my mind.
37:40
I wanna. My therapist brain is like, it
37:44
seems like you Luke are happy and feeling around that.
37:47
Yeah, just like it's, I don't know.
37:50
It's more if I think about the whole thing, it's overwhelming
37:53
With each one of my children, I'm like, how in the hell?
37:55
Like they're always changing, They're evolving.
37:57
They have new needs. I'm like, I can constantly
37:59
ridicule myself and go like, oh, my fifth child, like I'm not,
38:05
I'm not connected enough to them.
38:06
Like, like he's not getting what he needs.
38:09
My first. There's too much damage there.
38:10
Like I can, I can overanalyze the amount of work there is to
38:13
do here. I can go who, what's in front of
38:17
me right now? Let's be present and connected
38:19
to who's in front of me and to not stop fighting, not stop
38:22
trying and start just continuing continual repair.
38:26
And there's days with it and there's good days with it.
38:30
There's wins and there's like, am I doing anything right?
38:34
Doesn't make a difference. So just don't freaking stop.
38:36
Like just keep fighting and and showing up in in selfless ways
38:43
that they, that they're the focus and not you.
38:46
And to get out of freak, get out of shame, get out of the I'm not
38:50
enough, get out of the I'll never be enough.
38:52
I keep messing it up and just show up.
38:55
And I mean, I would, that's what I love about my parents.
38:59
They don't quit. I'm sorry if that's not your
39:01
experience with your parents and very imperfect parents, but they
39:04
don't, they don't stop loving. They don't stop showing up.
39:08
And that's, that's a lot to ask. That's a that's a big deal.
39:11
And and I'd like to continue that and me as a parent.
39:17
Your kids aren't looking for perfection.
39:20
They're not they don't need it. Check this stat out.
39:22
We probably should vet it out and all that kind of stuff.
39:24
But it came from a felt like a credible stores.
39:26
They said in order to be consistent with your child 40%
39:30
of the time, 40% of the time is consistent.
39:33
Like that's not a high bar, right?
39:36
And it actually turns into secure attachment.
39:38
So yeah, we're not, we're not asking for perfection at all.
39:42
Thank you. Thank that right there.
39:45
I feel like if that was our episode, that little feel that
39:50
it's beautiful. Before I wrap up on final
39:52
thoughts, Amy, do you mind just giving a message to our
39:58
partners, just final thoughts for them?
40:03
What was coming up for me, Lucas, that you were talking?
40:05
I just, man, it's hard to be a parent so hard, betrayed or
40:11
betrayed. It's just hard to be a parent.
40:13
And then you add something like this on top of it as one being
40:16
impacted by or the one being the impactor.
40:18
It's just it's hard already to be a parent.
40:23
And so I think I can speak for both of you.
40:26
We, we would love to invite all of you to just have some
40:29
compassion that you're navigating this on top of
40:32
already navigating parenting. It is so hard.
40:37
The fact that you're, if you're listening to this, you love your
40:40
kids, I know you do, and you are wanting to do what's the best.
40:45
And look, I really appreciate what you said there.
40:47
My kids didn't have that repair. And so I have taken on a lot of
40:51
that responsibility to try and repair for their dad.
40:59
And my therapist is really working with me to stop doing
41:02
that because you see the impact and you want to help when you
41:08
see the hurt. It's just hard.
41:12
But if you're trying, give yourself a hug and know that
41:18
you're trying. And I, I just echo what you
41:20
said. Look, don't stop trying.
41:22
Don't stop, but give yourself grace along the way.
41:28
I just want to hug you both, and I want to hug like all of our
41:31
listeners. It's a really tender topic and
41:35
it is because of the love and it makes me think of it.
41:38
In Glennon Doyle's book Untamed, she talks about uses analogy of
41:42
a parent's love is this flowing river.
41:45
But sometimes as parents we have big boulders that block the flow
41:50
of that river and sometimes they were put there, sometimes our
41:53
own choices put them there, but that does not change the fact
41:57
that that river is there. And when we learn how to remove
42:01
those boulders, it can flow freely.
42:04
And so just like I feel the love each of you have for your
42:07
children. And I just will second that if
42:11
you're listening to this and you've made it this far in the
42:13
episode that I truly believe that you love your children.
42:17
And, and sometimes removing those boulders is hard work, But
42:21
you doing that is the greatest gift you can give to your
42:24
children, the greatest gift you can give to yourself, the
42:26
greatest you can just give to your posterity as that ripples
42:29
out. So thank you, Luke, thank you
42:32
for coming on and being with us this week and our listeners as
42:36
always, thank you for hanging out with us and we look forward
42:39
to seeing you all next week. Imagine stepping away from the
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to have you with us. Hey, thanks for joining us
43:42
today. If this is something that you
43:44
connected with, I'd love to meet with you more and talk about it.
43:47
So what you can do is go to chooserecoveryservices.com or
43:50
check the show notes and there what we can do is set up a quick
43:53
conversation. Thanks so much for listening to
43:56
Beyond the Facade where we unmask the authentic self.