Latest / UK Column Radio / Charles Malet on his time in Africa | Jerm Warfare

Transcript

Charles Malet on his time in Africa | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

0:30
Speaker 1: My name is Jim. This is stim warfe the Battle
0:33
Speaker 1: of Ideas. Charles Man, Charles may thank you for joining
0:37
Speaker 1: me in the Trenchers.
0:39
Speaker 2: Not at always as always a pleasure, even if it's
0:43
Speaker 2: not been so long since we were last doing this together.
0:46
Speaker 2: But it's always good to talk. There is always something
0:49
Speaker 2: to talk about, and I think that's the thing, isn't it.
0:52
Speaker 1: But these intros always feel so artificial because you have
0:58
Speaker 1: to do it because somebody listening for the first time
1:01
Speaker 1: kind of has to get the intro. But you know,
1:03
Speaker 1: you and I know each other than we were talking
1:04
Speaker 1: before I hit the record button.
1:06
Speaker 2: It's always so scripted. Yeah, well, I think it's good.
1:10
Speaker 2: I think it's fantastic that we can think that this
1:13
Speaker 2: could end up anywhere, and especially although one might be
1:18
Speaker 2: skeptical because of the control that they assert over what
1:22
Speaker 2: it is that we do and what we put out.
1:24
Speaker 2: In fact, the bonus, I would say, of the algorithm
1:27
Speaker 2: or algorithms, and I'm already slightly out of my depth
1:30
Speaker 2: because I don't necessarily especially understand how this stuff does work.
1:33
Speaker 2: But when you think of the way in which people
1:35
Speaker 2: do consume content when they're away from a website, so
1:40
Speaker 2: clearly this is a UK column broadcast, but could end
1:44
Speaker 2: up anywhere, and therefore what we discussed today will have
1:49
Speaker 2: an effect on that algorithm, and therefore people will see it.
1:52
Speaker 2: And I do find that fascinating. So I think it
1:54
Speaker 2: is worth introducing ourselves and talking about what we do
2:00
Speaker 2: do because I think there is an element of confusion,
2:03
Speaker 2: and I like, you know, I like to think that
2:06
Speaker 2: we are occupying a unique space as far as UK
2:10
Speaker 2: columns concerned, as ostensibly as a news organization. But your podcast,
2:15
Speaker 2: again is I think unparalleled. The simple fact that it
2:19
Speaker 2: comes out every day, every weekday, and that you cover
2:23
Speaker 2: such an incredible breadth of subjects and speakers is phenomenal.
2:29
Speaker 2: That's worth talking about.
2:32
Speaker 1: I often use the metaphor, you know, trenchers information or
2:38
Speaker 1: the battlefield information worn. So I guess a pertin question
2:42
Speaker 1: for you, Charles is how is the information war treating you?
2:46
Speaker 2: I think pretty well. I think one learns over time
2:51
Speaker 2: how to regard it, and the fronts and the the
2:57
Speaker 2: players and the supposing threats, risks, all that kind of
3:03
Speaker 2: thing if wants to overlay military terminology, I think the
3:08
Speaker 2: way I look at it is not just to consider
3:13
Speaker 2: as I do of course, but not just to consider
3:16
Speaker 2: the battle that we face in terms of getting hold
3:20
Speaker 2: of information that we can regard as being correct, but
3:25
Speaker 2: also to think about how we are censored in what
3:29
Speaker 2: we do and how information is regarded. But actually I
3:33
Speaker 2: always think about the entire picture as being something from
3:39
Speaker 2: which you can continually glean intelligence. You can tell by
3:45
Speaker 2: the reaction to or the response to something you have
3:49
Speaker 2: an idea. You have a better idea than about that person,
3:52
Speaker 2: about that organization, and that's very telling. So I think
3:56
Speaker 2: that the way in which we operate is to you know,
4:03
Speaker 2: we're here to produce content. We're putting content out now.
4:06
Speaker 2: There's always a response to that. There's a response to
4:09
Speaker 2: what we do. And I would say, looking at the
4:12
Speaker 2: you know, what you describe as the intelligence preparation of
4:15
Speaker 2: the battlefield, looking at what it is that you're reading
4:18
Speaker 2: into into everything, I think it's fascinating. I think one
4:22
Speaker 2: thing that's come out recently, or at least perhaps come
4:26
Speaker 2: to a bit of a head recently, which is an
4:29
Speaker 2: interesting one for UK column, is this a view that
4:36
Speaker 2: the discussion around a topic is confused with an endorsement
4:40
Speaker 2: of it. And I think your podcast is particularly susceptible
4:45
Speaker 2: to that, and I do find that very interesting because
4:46
Speaker 2: it is that tends to be seized upon by people
4:49
Speaker 2: who are supposedly sort of examining and investigating the various
4:55
Speaker 2: corruptions and tyrannies going on in the world. And you'd
4:58
Speaker 2: think that in the main lead people to want to
5:02
Speaker 2: devote their efforts to working out how to deal with
5:05
Speaker 2: those things. But interestingly that's not always the consequence, and
5:10
Speaker 2: often the consequence can be to turn inwards and to
5:13
Speaker 2: start criticizing others around you, particularly, I think in this
5:18
Speaker 2: in a misconstrued sense, we talk about a huge number
5:24
Speaker 2: of different topics on UK column. We, you know, Mike
5:27
Speaker 2: and I and you on our banter sessions, discuss all
5:30
Speaker 2: manner of things, and I think unless we are absolutely
5:35
Speaker 2: damning everybody to hell, then it's assumed that we are
5:40
Speaker 2: in support of whatever it is we're discussing, which is
5:42
Speaker 2: a totally ludicrous assumption, and I would say a very
5:45
Speaker 2: lazy assumption as well. But I do find it fascinating,
5:48
Speaker 2: and that will This might sound like an ugly segue,
5:52
Speaker 2: but we are going to talk a lot about Africa
5:54
Speaker 2: and my experiences in Africa having worked in various guises
5:58
Speaker 2: there and what I'm going to describe in the over
6:02
Speaker 2: the course of this AH is not my endorsement of
6:08
Speaker 2: what is going on, and they're going to be my
6:10
Speaker 2: experiences and my views, my sort of analytical comment. But that,
6:15
Speaker 2: but that is not that is not necessarily to be
6:18
Speaker 2: considered an endorsement. If it is an endorsement, I guess
6:21
Speaker 2: I would say, so, you know, I think I think
6:24
Speaker 2: that is going back to your original question about this
6:28
Speaker 2: being an information war. Yes it is, and it's I
6:31
Speaker 2: think it's it's regrettable that the that the picture one
6:38
Speaker 2: has from a particular position is constantly confused and frustrated
6:45
Speaker 2: by a lot of those that are around you. But
6:47
Speaker 2: then again that that's not that is not entirely dissimilar
6:50
Speaker 2: from war, when when confusion rained, it doesn't matter how
6:56
Speaker 2: sophisticated your communications equipment or your plan is. In actual fact,
7:02
Speaker 2: that the reason that the fog of war is so
7:07
Speaker 2: described is because things do become incredibly confusing, very very quickly,
7:13
Speaker 2: and even to the point of not being entirely sure
7:18
Speaker 2: who is shooting at whom. I mean, it is very
7:22
Speaker 2: very odd environment. So I think that the parallel that
7:24
Speaker 2: you draw to refer to the information war as and
7:29
Speaker 2: use sort of jargon associated with conflict and warfare. I
7:33
Speaker 2: think it's banged on, because I think it does absolutely
7:36
Speaker 2: you know, and the idea of people sort of switching
7:39
Speaker 2: sides or carrying out subversive activities, all those sorts of things,
7:42
Speaker 2: it's a really great overlayer. I think.
7:45
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, you created my segue because Africa is
7:48
Speaker 1: full of war, and why actually I want to chat
7:51
Speaker 1: to you is just to get some of your experiences
7:55
Speaker 1: in Africa in the in the real thing.
7:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, well people will bridle hearing. Yes, another white man
8:05
Speaker 2: talking about his experiences in Africa. Well, not only why
8:09
Speaker 2: but also British Well yeah thanks, yeah, yeah, exactly. So
8:13
Speaker 2: just to get that out of the way, I mean,
8:15
Speaker 2: I suppose that here comes the endorsement. I have been
8:20
Speaker 2: lucky enough to spend long periods of time in largely
8:24
Speaker 2: sub Saharan Africa, a little bit in the north, but
8:27
Speaker 2: really any sort of holiday making, but mostly in a
8:30
Speaker 2: work capacity or sort of extended travel capacity. Subs are
8:34
Speaker 2: in Africa. And the endorsement is that the reason I've
8:37
Speaker 2: done that is because I was lucky enough to travel
8:39
Speaker 2: to Africa when I was well actually initially briefly as
8:43
Speaker 2: a teenager, and then I went back and worked and
8:47
Speaker 2: traveled through Subsaharan Africa after leaving school and found it
8:53
Speaker 2: to be a place that alutely absolutely captured my imagination.
8:59
Speaker 2: And there for fast forward to well, I suppose what
9:03
Speaker 2: was it and getting on for twenty years ago as
9:06
Speaker 2: an officer, as an infantry officer in the British Army,
9:09
Speaker 2: and I was reviewing my options job wise, and I
9:14
Speaker 2: saw that there was there were a few posts sort
9:18
Speaker 2: of commensurate with my rank and position and whatnot in Africa,
9:23
Speaker 2: and I thought, Wow, that would be that really would
9:26
Speaker 2: be an amazing opportunity. That would be that would be
9:28
Speaker 2: very different. I'll go I'll go on to talk about that.
9:31
Speaker 2: I think that'll be sort of the main thrust. But
9:33
Speaker 2: also for context, I have I have worked on the
9:38
Speaker 2: corporate side of it as well, which again will conjure
9:41
Speaker 2: perhaps an image of being behind a desk wearing a suit,
9:46
Speaker 2: not at all. I'm talking about being in the bush
9:50
Speaker 2: managing mining exploration operations in very very remote areas. So
9:57
Speaker 2: I do have, by sort of into circumstance, quite a
10:01
Speaker 2: broad spectrum of different experiences, sometimes all in the same countries,
10:07
Speaker 2: and therefore I'm not trying to set out my stall
10:11
Speaker 2: as though are that means I'm really well qualified in
10:13
Speaker 2: my opinion matters and should be taken as read. I
10:16
Speaker 2: absolutely don't mean that at all. I can only talk
10:18
Speaker 2: about the things that I've seen and the opinions I've
10:22
Speaker 2: formed based on that. So I'm not at all prefixing
10:25
Speaker 2: this by saying, you know, I'm an expert. But what
10:28
Speaker 2: I would say though, is that my experiences from decades ago,
10:32
Speaker 2: or at least from decades ago up to now, are
10:36
Speaker 2: a very interesting perspective to have when one reviews what's
10:39
Speaker 2: going on in the world, particularly through a British prism
10:44
Speaker 2: or British lens now, and how you can point back
10:47
Speaker 2: and think, right, okay, now, I see how those things connect.
10:50
Speaker 2: So just to have an insight into how some of
10:53
Speaker 2: these things do work for me has been completely fascinating.
10:56
Speaker 2: And as I say, I have always been drawn back
11:02
Speaker 2: to Africa. There is nowhere like it. And I can
11:05
Speaker 2: qualify that by saying that, with the exception of the Antipodes,
11:09
Speaker 2: I have traveled to all regions of the Earth, and
11:15
Speaker 2: no I mean okay, everywhere's particular everywhere's unique. Of course,
11:18
Speaker 2: it is more a daft thing to suggest otherwise, but
11:20
Speaker 2: there is something about Africa which just you cannot sort
11:24
Speaker 2: of bottle and export anywhere else just wouldn't work. It's very,
11:28
Speaker 2: very particular, and that does play into to the work
11:32
Speaker 2: in context. You know, working with Africans is phenomenal, and
11:38
Speaker 2: I think the types of experience that you come away
11:42
Speaker 2: with you don't get anywhere else. So I'm so in
11:46
Speaker 2: terms of endorsements, if we get the endorsements out, I
11:48
Speaker 2: am very pro Africa. I think it's terrifically regrettable that
11:55
Speaker 2: so much of Africa has for so many years not
12:00
Speaker 2: fulfilled its potential. And also because I know the last
12:04
Speaker 2: time we spoke about this on a banter session, I
12:06
Speaker 2: think there were a few comments suggesting that we let
12:09
Speaker 2: Africans off the hook, and and I'm not I'm not
12:13
Speaker 2: going to do that, not going to to damn Africans,
12:16
Speaker 2: by which I suppose I mean people. I mean, this
12:20
Speaker 2: is a difficult one with you as as a white
12:22
Speaker 2: sound African. I'm not African. Yeah, you know exactly what
12:26
Speaker 2: you are, and so this is it. So I don't
12:28
Speaker 2: want to get drawn necessarily on that but I know,
12:30
Speaker 2: I know what people mean. I mean, essentially, we are
12:33
Speaker 2: a yeah, yeah, exactly. We mean black Africans and and
12:38
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, black Africans, like white Africans, like white people,
12:42
Speaker 2: like people all over the world, they have their fair
12:45
Speaker 2: share of corrupt, you know, sort of cabals of greedy people,
12:53
Speaker 2: and they don't do anyone any good. I mean that
12:56
Speaker 2: that is absolutely the case. And I can go on
12:58
Speaker 2: to talk about that as well. So that's my that's
13:01
Speaker 2: my sort of African background. But I'm but it's the
13:06
Speaker 2: defense bit, the military bit that has been I mean,
13:10
Speaker 2: at the moment that is kind of coming into coming
13:14
Speaker 2: back into relevant because I think for for a long
13:18
Speaker 2: period of time, no one's really seen the point in
13:20
Speaker 2: considering Africa until until now. I think there are many
13:25
Speaker 2: reasons now why looking at Africa does make a bit
13:27
Speaker 2: more sense in a in a military context.
13:30
Speaker 1: Quickly you jump in. I always found it fascinating when
13:35
Speaker 1: we talk about Africa, you were quick to say Subsahran,
13:39
Speaker 1: and it's it's a it's a good point because when
13:42
Speaker 1: you say Africa, you don't really think of Algeria or
13:45
Speaker 1: Morocco or any of those sort of North African countries now.
13:51
Speaker 1: But I mean, I'm not saying that as a as
13:53
Speaker 1: a bad thing. I'm saying it's just an interesting psychology
13:55
Speaker 1: how the world views Africa.
13:57
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree, and that's the I think that's the well,
14:01
Speaker 2: there are lots of reasons. That's sort of the Bob
14:03
Speaker 2: Geldoff effect. And actually, for anyone who hasn't been to
14:08
Speaker 2: Ethiopia at the other Bob Geldoff effect is that is
14:12
Speaker 2: that white people are treated like their sort of cash points.
14:17
Speaker 2: And you will see wherever you go in Ethiopia you
14:20
Speaker 2: have children running up to you, running after you, saying,
14:25
Speaker 2: give me pen, give me burr. Burr is the Ethiopian currency,
14:28
Speaker 2: and they just want pens and money because that's what
14:30
Speaker 2: they're used to seeing white people come and come and do. So. Yes,
14:35
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to dismiss the idea that sort of
14:39
Speaker 2: you know, humanitarian support and whatnot. But but anyway, that's
14:44
Speaker 2: that is another another rabbit hole. But yes, you're you're
14:47
Speaker 2: absolutely right. I think unless you're I I think if
14:51
Speaker 2: you're part of the francophone world, you probably do when
14:56
Speaker 2: when people talk about Africa, I think you probably do
14:57
Speaker 2: consider North Africa and of course West Africa far more
15:02
Speaker 2: when people say Africa. But yes, I think if your
15:05
Speaker 2: if your world is sort of British centric, then then yes,
15:10
Speaker 2: Africa does conjure the idea of black black people in
15:16
Speaker 2: sub Saharan African countries, so I think.
15:18
Speaker 1: It's not just British. I'll give you a quick anecdote,
15:21
Speaker 1: very funny when I went to Sydney on the flight
15:26
Speaker 1: after Quantas and on the flight, I had to fill in
15:28
Speaker 1: a little form, you know, for customs and immigration, et cetera.
15:32
Speaker 1: And one of the questions. One of the questions was
15:35
Speaker 1: have you been to Africa? And I had just left Jannsburg,
15:40
Speaker 1: so I was on my way way to Sydney, direct
15:42
Speaker 1: flight from Jannisburg. So I didn't I didn't answer that
15:45
Speaker 1: because it's silly, and I wanted to see what the
15:48
Speaker 1: response would be on the other side. And when I
15:50
Speaker 1: went through Customs and Immigration in in Sydney, she says,
15:54
Speaker 1: she says to me, so you you didn't complete the form,
15:58
Speaker 1: I said, which part alive actually says, well, it says, yeah,
16:01
Speaker 1: have you been to Africa? So I said, do you
16:03
Speaker 1: know what flat I was on? And she said, yes,
16:07
Speaker 1: you you've just come from South Africa. And I said, okay,
16:10
Speaker 1: so what happens now, and she says, well, we actually
16:14
Speaker 1: meet Africa.
16:15
Speaker 3: Africa really okay, So I've never forgotten that that is amazing.
16:28
Speaker 2: But I have to say I do remember the first
16:35
Speaker 2: I first was sort of travel properly in South Africa
16:38
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six, and I very well remember, sorry,
16:44
Speaker 2: and at that point that was the only that was
16:46
Speaker 2: the only African country I've been to, and I can
16:48
Speaker 2: remember crossing the border on the train up into Zimbabwe.
16:54
Speaker 2: And and this is not I'm not saying this in
16:58
Speaker 2: order to criticize South Africa, but at that time I'm
17:04
Speaker 2: not saying it was. There wasn't such well, no, all
17:08
Speaker 2: I'm going to make the point is that as a
17:12
Speaker 2: as a white person traveling around South Africa on public
17:16
Speaker 2: transport in the mid nineties was it was interesting. There
17:22
Speaker 2: was there was a a there was a tension there.
17:26
Speaker 2: There could be at times, not always, but certainly in
17:29
Speaker 2: some of the urban areas there could feel like a
17:34
Speaker 2: little bit of attention. And as an example, I remember
17:39
Speaker 2: very clearly being in a bus ticket office in it
17:44
Speaker 2: was either in Durban or Port Elizabeth, I can't remember,
17:46
Speaker 2: but somewhere on that coastal route and sitting at the desk.
17:52
Speaker 2: It was a white guy behind the desk selling tickets
17:55
Speaker 2: and buying a bus ticket onto wherever, I can't remember
17:58
Speaker 2: where it was. And behind I was with a friend.
18:01
Speaker 2: Behind us, somebody walked in and the guy opposite said, oh,
18:06
Speaker 2: here's trouble. And he pulled open the drawer of his
18:08
Speaker 2: desk and there was a pistol in the in the
18:12
Speaker 2: desk and he put his hand on the pistol and
18:14
Speaker 2: waited to see what this young black guy was going
18:17
Speaker 2: to do. In the event. Luckily, he either did nothing
18:22
Speaker 2: or walked out or sat down. And John m Cufe,
18:25
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't remember what it was, but there
18:27
Speaker 2: was enough in that moment for that chap to perceive
18:30
Speaker 2: that there was a potential threat. Now, that's that is
18:33
Speaker 2: not something I've seen anywhere else in any other past
18:36
Speaker 2: of Africa. So just to.
18:40
Speaker 1: Ya, South Africa is weirdly all aggressive. There's a lot
18:44
Speaker 1: more tension here than there is also on the continent.
18:47
Speaker 1: I don't know why that is.
18:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, well exactly, and I just think that's that's just
18:52
Speaker 2: just to go back to your Australian lady questioning you,
18:56
Speaker 2: there was a marked difference at that time, and I
18:58
Speaker 2: mean there's it persists, I think, but crossing the border
19:02
Speaker 2: into into Zimbabwe, just the way that the way the
19:06
Speaker 2: conductor dealt with people on the on the train because
19:08
Speaker 2: you cross the border and obviously you got to do
19:11
Speaker 2: you do the whole popular immigration thing on the train
19:14
Speaker 2: and all that it was. It was very different and
19:16
Speaker 2: and that was quite that was quite striking. Which is
19:21
Speaker 2: not to say that that there isn't, you know, violence
19:26
Speaker 2: and plenty of sort of unrest in other places. There
19:29
Speaker 2: absolutely is, but I think the way it manifests is
19:32
Speaker 2: different from how it is in South Africa. And I
19:33
Speaker 2: think as a as a non native white person, the
19:39
Speaker 2: feeling that you have around you is different in South
19:44
Speaker 2: Africa than it is in other places. That's something I
19:46
Speaker 2: did find interesting.
19:48
Speaker 1: But your your actual African time wasn't really South Africa.
19:51
Speaker 2: It was yeah, so what did you go first? Well,
19:55
Speaker 2: in a work capacity, and this again was an interesting one.
19:59
Speaker 2: I think it tells a lot about the psychology of
20:02
Speaker 2: people in general. But actually the way people talk about stuff,
20:06
Speaker 2: and I think this, I think I can overlay this
20:09
Speaker 2: onto the sort of well what can we do? You know,
20:12
Speaker 2: we see the government's tyranny. We see this and the other,
20:14
Speaker 2: what can we do? I mentioned earlier that when I
20:18
Speaker 2: was a sort of j junior Ish officer in the army,
20:24
Speaker 2: I had the opportunity. You get to it basically, you
20:27
Speaker 2: get to a point in your career where you get
20:28
Speaker 2: to look at a list of jobs rather than just
20:30
Speaker 2: being told where you're going to go next. And there's
20:33
Speaker 2: there's a long list of jobs. And as I say,
20:35
Speaker 2: I saw a couple of African ones. One was in
20:38
Speaker 2: Nigeria and one was in Kenya, and I'd been I'd
20:42
Speaker 2: not been to Nigeria before, but I had been to Kenya,
20:44
Speaker 2: so instinctively I thought, well, I should go to I
20:48
Speaker 2: should put in for the job in Nigeria so it'd
20:49
Speaker 2: be more interesting. However, for reasons that I can't quite remember,
20:54
Speaker 2: actually the Nigeria job seemed like a bit of a
20:58
Speaker 2: dead end, and all actually had the possibility that it
21:01
Speaker 2: was going to be but it was going to be canned,
21:03
Speaker 2: so it didn't seem terribly sensible. So I applied for
21:06
Speaker 2: this job in Nairobi and I was accepted. I got
21:11
Speaker 2: the job, and then I told, you know, I obviously
21:15
Speaker 2: told those that I was serving with in my regiment
21:18
Speaker 2: those that were around me that that was the job
21:20
Speaker 2: I'd got, and the reaction universally was wow, you know,
21:25
Speaker 2: that sounds absolutely fantastic. I you know, I wish I
21:31
Speaker 2: I wish I'd got a similar job or got that
21:33
Speaker 2: job or whatever it was. I just thought, why, that
21:36
Speaker 2: is really curious because we're all in the same boat,
21:37
Speaker 2: we all get to look at the same list, and
21:40
Speaker 2: you didn't choose that, I mean, you didn't go for it.
21:42
Speaker 2: So you're saying I wish I was doing that, and
21:48
Speaker 2: it sounds like an option that I would have gone for,
21:52
Speaker 2: and yet I haven't. Now that there are all number
21:56
Speaker 2: of reasons why people may have said that and not
21:59
Speaker 2: thought but I just thought it was an interesting one
22:01
Speaker 2: because we're always talking now about the sort of well,
22:04
Speaker 2: you know, what can I do and then you say,
22:07
Speaker 2: well you could do this, that and the other, and
22:09
Speaker 2: the response is either silence or well, now, probably just
22:14
Speaker 2: not going to do that. So that was quite telling.
22:16
Speaker 2: But yeah, this was to fulfill what was described as
22:26
Speaker 2: a defense diplomacy role now the various European nations at
22:34
Speaker 2: the end of at the end of the colonial period
22:38
Speaker 2: when independence came about, each country had different a different
22:44
Speaker 2: way of handing over, a different type of control that
22:49
Speaker 2: they were going to exert on that particular country afterwards.
22:52
Speaker 2: And in most of the colonies that had been British
22:59
Speaker 2: from a milli tree point of view, there was a
23:02
Speaker 2: there was at least a toe hold retained. And the
23:06
Speaker 2: way that that had happened in East Africa, using Kenya
23:11
Speaker 2: as the kind of powerhouse because that had been sort
23:15
Speaker 2: of economically the strongest of those countries, what they did
23:19
Speaker 2: was they retained a sort of training and mentoring team
23:25
Speaker 2: and that was run through the Staff College and therefore
23:30
Speaker 2: that evolved over time. And the way that it worked
23:33
Speaker 2: is that technically we were on loan to the to
23:36
Speaker 2: the government of Kenya, so this was the This is
23:38
Speaker 2: straight into what's what's regarded as neo colonialism. As though
23:42
Speaker 2: it's as though it's white Brits going out to tell
23:47
Speaker 2: the Africans how to do it. It's not quite that simple,
23:50
Speaker 2: because we wouldn't have been there if the government of
23:54
Speaker 2: Kenya hadn't specifically wanted us to be there. So it
23:57
Speaker 2: absolutely is a backscratching exercise. It's definitely not a one
24:01
Speaker 2: way street with British just going out there and saying right,
24:05
Speaker 2: this is this is how you do it. We're the
24:07
Speaker 2: ones that benefit. And I did talk about this on
24:09
Speaker 2: a banter session the other day because in actual fact
24:14
Speaker 2: they you know, there is considerable guile. And I think
24:19
Speaker 2: the way in which the government of actually you could
24:22
Speaker 2: say any African nation, but I mean the way in
24:24
Speaker 2: which the government of Kenya and the armed forces ran
24:28
Speaker 2: their side of the arrangement meant that very much they
24:31
Speaker 2: got out of it what they wanted and so but
24:35
Speaker 2: just as an example, I mean, my role primarily was
24:38
Speaker 2: to provide a sort of liaison in a headquarters that
24:42
Speaker 2: the British taxpayer had built right beside the airport in Nairabi.
24:47
Speaker 2: Now I'm out of touch. I don't know what that
24:49
Speaker 2: building exactly is useful now, But the point is that
24:54
Speaker 2: despite the fact we had paid for it and we
24:57
Speaker 2: were providing quite a lot of funding for various activities
25:01
Speaker 2: and indeed a member of staff, it was not at
25:04
Speaker 2: all to be used exclusively for that purpose. So there
25:07
Speaker 2: was quite a lot of other stuff going on, which
25:09
Speaker 2: again just suggests that you know, these these Africans are
25:14
Speaker 2: not daft, they are not ill equipped when it comes
25:19
Speaker 2: to considering how to achieve the best outcome for themselves.
25:24
Speaker 2: But nonetheless it was a very interesting engagement. And the
25:26
Speaker 2: reason that I'm just laying a bit of groundwork here
25:30
Speaker 2: is that here we are nearly twenty years later, and
25:34
Speaker 2: only now, literally within the last month, has the government,
25:39
Speaker 2: the British government, written something that it calls its defense
25:42
Speaker 2: diplomacy strategy. So this is something that's been going on
25:46
Speaker 2: since the waning or the you know, since the Empire
25:52
Speaker 2: as it was sort of shut up shop. Of course
25:56
Speaker 2: it didn't, but you know what I mean, since since
25:58
Speaker 2: independence came. This what is described as defense to blamec
26:02
Speaker 2: now has been going on in every single country that
26:06
Speaker 2: we had set foot in, and yet only now are
26:08
Speaker 2: they describing it as a coherent strategy. Now, I find
26:12
Speaker 2: that pretty interesting, and I think there's a lot going
26:18
Speaker 2: on here which is absolutely not being stated overtly. But
26:22
Speaker 2: the trend in the last four years in particular of course,
26:27
Speaker 2: for the British has been absolutely overwhelming and completely unqualified
26:33
Speaker 2: support for Ukraine. Now, Ukraine was not on the British
26:38
Speaker 2: radar from well, I mean, okay, it was a little,
26:43
Speaker 2: but not really going back much more than about ten years,
26:47
Speaker 2: Operation Orbital to train up Ukrainians. But essentially Ukraine had
26:52
Speaker 2: just been considered to be something of a backwater, largely irrelevant,
26:56
Speaker 2: and yet there's been absolutely terrific swing towards Ukraine. And
27:01
Speaker 2: this is very much part of what's described as the
27:04
Speaker 2: defense diplomacy strategy. And how does that relate to Africa. Well, this,
27:10
Speaker 2: I think it is rather interesting, and I think that
27:14
Speaker 2: we're seeing this with what's happening in Iran, and in
27:18
Speaker 2: particular for those that do listen to Karlsar's Silk and
27:24
Speaker 2: Steel podcast, I think this is exactly what Warwick Powell
27:27
Speaker 2: has been talking about over the last few weeks. And
27:29
Speaker 2: this is the consideration by nations that have historically had
27:34
Speaker 2: very strong links and ties to the United States basically
27:39
Speaker 2: reevaluating their options. And so the United Kingdom, European nations
27:47
Speaker 2: as part of NATO have obviously had very very strong allegiances,
27:51
Speaker 2: very strong ties to America. A lot of that now
27:55
Speaker 2: is looking I would say quite regrettable. However, because America
28:00
Speaker 2: is still a military superpower and critically the producer of
28:07
Speaker 2: so much kit that everybody else needs, those nations are
28:12
Speaker 2: in a very difficult place with regard to how to
28:15
Speaker 2: extract and as an example of that, the United Kingdom,
28:19
Speaker 2: which course is a nuclear power, is totally dependent upon
28:23
Speaker 2: the United States to be able to actually exert any
28:28
Speaker 2: of that power or influence. It doesn't control its own
28:32
Speaker 2: nuclear capability, not exclusively. That's a bit complicated. So the
28:38
Speaker 2: point I'm trying to make is that the idea that
28:45
Speaker 2: the status quo, or at least the state's great that
28:47
Speaker 2: we were told about, which is that the United States
28:49
Speaker 2: and the United Kingdom have sort of joined at the
28:51
Speaker 2: hip and will always be acting in concorde and this,
28:55
Speaker 2: that and the other, it's a total nonsense. So you
28:58
Speaker 2: look at what's happened with on and you look at
29:01
Speaker 2: the way in which the United States was basically directed
29:04
Speaker 2: by Israel, and the way in which the United Kingdom
29:07
Speaker 2: has done absolutely nothing but in effect toe the line
29:10
Speaker 2: whilst pretending not to be What choice do they have?
29:14
Speaker 2: How on earth are they able to say no? Because
29:18
Speaker 2: if they do, are they are done for. But this
29:23
Speaker 2: is why it comes back to Ukraine. So the focus
29:26
Speaker 2: has been concentrated on Ukraine, but in a way that
29:32
Speaker 2: is all about European securities, not talking about NATI. They're
29:36
Speaker 2: talking about European security. And I think that that is
29:43
Speaker 2: absolutely fascinating, and I think that it does bear direct
29:47
Speaker 2: relation to the goings on or the lack of goings
29:53
Speaker 2: on in other parts of the world over the years.
29:56
Speaker 2: Africa in particular.
30:02
Speaker 1: Did you notice the same thing though, because you've been
30:05
Speaker 1: to various countries? I in other words, did you find
30:09
Speaker 1: the same overlapping? Is narrative the right word perception? Maybe
30:17
Speaker 1: in other African countries?
30:19
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it's different because, of course the other detail
30:25
Speaker 2: what I'm describing is sort of my experiences through the
30:28
Speaker 2: lens of somebody who was involved, you know, in what
30:32
Speaker 2: was basically a British government project. The way to think
30:37
Speaker 2: about it really is, well, what does it look like
30:39
Speaker 2: if you are if you are African, if you're either
30:42
Speaker 2: part of the African Nations Armed Forces, or if you're
30:45
Speaker 2: part of the an African government or part of the
30:50
Speaker 2: African Union. Because they're all in some ways in conflict
30:55
Speaker 2: with one another. And this is where this is where
30:58
Speaker 2: the whole picture became so very complicated, because there are
31:00
Speaker 2: such terrific rivalries between the African countries. They may, you know,
31:07
Speaker 2: I mean, let's face it, they may only be superficial
31:11
Speaker 2: to a certain extent, but it did mean that that
31:14
Speaker 2: relations between countries were often direct, so you'd have, you know,
31:22
Speaker 2: that the British would have a direct relationship with the
31:26
Speaker 2: government of Rwanda, direct relationship with government Kenya and Uganda
31:30
Speaker 2: and so on, rather than imagining that they are a
31:33
Speaker 2: sort of cohesive block. And the reason I make that
31:36
Speaker 2: distinction is because as far as the African Union is concerned,
31:40
Speaker 2: they are a cohesive block. That is the idea that
31:45
Speaker 2: they're putting forward that they can split the continent into
31:49
Speaker 2: five regions and that each one will somehow provide a
31:54
Speaker 2: capability for the African Union, even if the support, the funding,
32:00
Speaker 2: the training, the mentoring, everything else is an absolute patchwork
32:05
Speaker 2: of cooperations and partnerships with mostly other European or sort
32:12
Speaker 2: of Western nations, so that the whole picture is very
32:15
Speaker 2: very complicated.
32:18
Speaker 1: But also sorry if you don't mind be jumping, but
32:20
Speaker 1: it also it also helps create a little bit more
32:25
Speaker 1: understanding into why there is this general antagonism from Africans
32:34
Speaker 1: to foreigners. It's not it's not the case across the board,
32:40
Speaker 1: but I'm talking in terms of the macro level. You know,
32:42
Speaker 1: they'll talk about you know, go you know, let's let's
32:45
Speaker 1: get them out of Africa. You know, like here South Africa,
32:48
Speaker 1: all our all our minds are are we're not controlled
32:51
Speaker 1: by South Africans, and that that trend is the same
32:54
Speaker 1: through most of Africa. And then you can kind of
32:57
Speaker 1: see where there's a correlation between that and exists of poverty,
33:03
Speaker 1: and then you realize, okay, it might actually be understandable
33:08
Speaker 1: why there is this this kind of inherent animosity There
33:11
Speaker 1: shouldn't be, but it seems to be imposed.
33:16
Speaker 2: I think so. But you see again, I think that's
33:19
Speaker 2: that sort of deflection because I would say the real
33:22
Speaker 2: well I deflection that that's creating a escapegoat when in
33:28
Speaker 2: actual factor that's probably not quite the case. So the
33:33
Speaker 2: the link, like you say, between say, control of all
33:38
Speaker 2: of the mining infrastructure and poverty in the country might
33:44
Speaker 2: not necessarily be one that we can really make because
33:47
Speaker 2: does it does the one prevent the government of not necessariarily?
33:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, I mean, as you but as you know,
33:55
Speaker 1: also like you got I think fourteen African countries that
33:58
Speaker 1: still use yes.
34:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh no, I mean, I'm I'm absolutely I'm not
34:03
Speaker 2: dismissing it. All I'm saying is that I think there
34:07
Speaker 2: are it's not one. It's not one totally joined up threat.
34:11
Speaker 2: I don't think that it's reasonable to say that you
34:15
Speaker 2: can blame Western countries, western companies for everything that before.
34:21
Speaker 2: That's the Africans. And I think that's quite a critical
34:25
Speaker 2: part of it. And that goes back to what I'm
34:26
Speaker 2: just referring to, because the degree to which Africans were
34:32
Speaker 2: actually not willing to cooperate with each other was quite staggering.
34:37
Speaker 2: And that and that could be you know, on a
34:40
Speaker 2: sort of just an armed forces level or a governmental
34:45
Speaker 2: or diplomatic level, and that was you could say the
34:51
Speaker 2: picture is slightly confused by there being any other influences,
34:54
Speaker 2: if there are any other Western sort of involvements in
34:58
Speaker 2: any of that. But I mean but even even when
34:59
Speaker 2: there weren't, that picture is confused enough. So I think
35:03
Speaker 2: to lay to lay all of that at the door
35:07
Speaker 2: of the West, I think is unfair. And this is
35:10
Speaker 2: this is what I said at the beginning of the
35:12
Speaker 2: You know, Africans are not blameless. I mean there are
35:15
Speaker 2: some very very good books on exact Yeah, absolutely, lord,
35:19
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, one one fascinating book I would say
35:23
Speaker 2: about Eastern Africa. I mean, it's it is specifically about Kenya.
35:26
Speaker 2: It's by MICHAELA. Wrong and it's called it's called our
35:29
Speaker 2: turn to eat or it's either it's our turn to
35:31
Speaker 2: eat or just our turn to eat. And it's again
35:35
Speaker 2: the post colonial state, well actually and the colonial state
35:40
Speaker 2: of countries with regard to what we describe as tribal makeup,
35:44
Speaker 2: it can be different. I mean, think of Tanganika or
35:48
Speaker 2: Tanzania and the way that was all effectively changed at
35:53
Speaker 2: point of independence. But certainly in Kenya, tribal identity and
35:58
Speaker 2: politics completely overlap. And her book is about, I mean,
36:03
Speaker 2: the specifics don't really matter, but it's about the Cukuu,
36:07
Speaker 2: the sort of largest central, most powerful tribe, the Cukuu
36:12
Speaker 2: tribe being in power. So when you get a Cukuu president,
36:16
Speaker 2: they regard it as being their turn to eat. So
36:18
Speaker 2: effectively that's your hand just goes straight into the till.
36:22
Speaker 2: And that is really all it's about. It's about just
36:26
Speaker 2: sorting out your own people to the absolutely to the
36:29
Speaker 2: detriment of others. So there are I think there are
36:34
Speaker 2: many many elements of this and the West what does
36:39
Speaker 2: the West do? I suppose to a certain extent, capitalizes
36:43
Speaker 2: on it, because of course it means that if you
36:45
Speaker 2: know that those people that you're going to be dealing
36:47
Speaker 2: with are corrupt in some sense, then you're going to
36:52
Speaker 2: use that corruption to your advantage. And I think that's
36:55
Speaker 2: what we see playing out neither. I'm not trying to
36:59
Speaker 2: absolve either party, as it were, from blame, but I
37:03
Speaker 2: think it I think it has to be acknowledged that
37:06
Speaker 2: that there are I mean, okay, it'd be very difficult,
37:09
Speaker 2: but there are ways in which African countries could be
37:12
Speaker 2: solving some of these problems. And as I say, there is,
37:15
Speaker 2: there's some very good literature on the you know, essentially
37:19
Speaker 2: putting forward the point that the best thing for Africa
37:22
Speaker 2: would be to just do their own thing and to
37:25
Speaker 2: to to get rid of exactly this. You know, the
37:29
Speaker 2: class that you're talking about, the controlling corporate class, whether
37:33
Speaker 2: it is in South Africa, whether it's expressed by control
37:37
Speaker 2: of minds or or whatever, exactly it is because the
37:41
Speaker 2: consistent point is, well, why why why is the West there?
37:45
Speaker 2: Why does the West want? It? Was because of the resources.
37:47
Speaker 2: So therefore Africa, you know, the line that's absolutely true.
37:51
Speaker 2: Africa is not poor. There is there is the most
37:54
Speaker 2: incredible wealth in there in Africa. But theoretically, if all
38:03
Speaker 2: Western elements left tomorrow, what would happen? Would that would
38:08
Speaker 2: exactly would that massive wealth be be realized and spread
38:12
Speaker 2: across the population? No, I mean it absolutely wouldn't. Would
38:17
Speaker 2: it In time? Would there be would there be sufficient
38:20
Speaker 2: pressure from groups within societies that could could sort of
38:25
Speaker 2: organize and coalesce. Well, I don't know. That's just the
38:27
Speaker 2: sort of thought experiment. We can't. We can't know because
38:30
Speaker 2: it is extremely unlikely to happen.
38:33
Speaker 1: It's a complex system. Is complex.
38:37
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it is complicated. But just to go back to
38:41
Speaker 2: sorrycause I don't think I quite finished point. But the
38:43
Speaker 2: the defense diplomacy thing, what what I think is very
38:46
Speaker 2: interesting is that is that putting all the eggs in
38:48
Speaker 2: one basket and in effect saying Russia. Russia is the
38:52
Speaker 2: big threat, which is why our defense to diplomacy has
38:55
Speaker 2: to be centered on Ukraine. They pay lip service to,
38:59
Speaker 2: you know, they talk about the other regions. I wrote
39:01
Speaker 2: some of the things down because I just thought, you know, wow,
39:05
Speaker 2: that they in the Middle East, so that the defense
39:07
Speaker 2: premacy strategy says that the influence in the Middle East
39:11
Speaker 2: will will be maintained by our persistent military footprint. I
39:16
Speaker 2: just thought you used the word persistent was interesting because
39:19
Speaker 2: it's it sort of suggests that the hosts are not
39:22
Speaker 2: necessarily entirely happy about it. And then in Africa it's
39:27
Speaker 2: to do with the promotion of peace and stability. Now,
39:30
Speaker 2: this is why I think it is fascinating, because that
39:34
Speaker 2: is basically an outright lie. That is obviously those are
39:38
Speaker 2: the activities that are being conducted, and the team that
39:42
Speaker 2: I worked for, which as I understand it is actually
39:45
Speaker 2: in jeopardy. So very interesting that you would put out
39:48
Speaker 2: defense permacy strategy and you would boast about having having contact,
39:54
Speaker 2: having a sort of unique contact in Africa through a
39:57
Speaker 2: team that is now only run out of Nirabi. The
40:00
Speaker 2: used to be a sister team down in Johannesburg, but
40:02
Speaker 2: that shut up shot some time ago. So you apparently
40:06
Speaker 2: have this capability, this ability to influence through what are
40:11
Speaker 2: described as peace and stability operations, training programs and all
40:15
Speaker 2: the rest of it. And then at the same time
40:17
Speaker 2: you think you might wind it up, but actually is
40:19
Speaker 2: it really peace and stability that's being promoted? And I
40:22
Speaker 2: think the two obvious examples to cast doubt on that
40:27
Speaker 2: are Sudan and Somalia, and they are completely related because
40:35
Speaker 2: here we are in a situation where supposedly the United
40:39
Speaker 2: Kingdom is protecting her interests and her allies across the
40:43
Speaker 2: Middle East. Now one of those is the United Arab Emirates,
40:47
Speaker 2: and the United Arab Emirates is without doubt enabling and
40:52
Speaker 2: perpetuating conflict in Sudan via the sales of arms to
40:57
Speaker 2: the RSF, but also through the procurement of gold from Sudan.
41:04
Speaker 2: And yet we're supporting UA at the same times apparently
41:08
Speaker 2: promoting peace and stability in Africa. Well that's quite clearly
41:10
Speaker 2: an absolute nonsense. But also at the same time we're
41:13
Speaker 2: protecting UAE from the supposed threat from Iran. And so
41:19
Speaker 2: there's some sort of extraordinary cycle of dishonesty, interception and
41:23
Speaker 2: conflict and death there. And then the other obvious one
41:28
Speaker 2: is the amazing inconsistency and sort of mudding of the
41:31
Speaker 2: waters on Somalia and Somali Land. Now, in nineteen sixty
41:37
Speaker 2: Mali Land which had been in effect an independent well
41:42
Speaker 2: very briefly at independence before it joined the country of Somalia,
41:47
Speaker 2: it was British and has campaigned for and since nineteen
41:53
Speaker 2: ninety one declared itself as sovereign, which has been a
41:56
Speaker 2: very very uneasy relationship between Somalia and Samari Land, which
42:00
Speaker 2: forms the sort of northwest of the country. Now, in
42:04
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, Ethiopia signed a memorandum of understanding with
42:09
Speaker 2: Somali Land in which they said that they were going
42:11
Speaker 2: to recognize the sovereignty of Somaliland as being distinct from Somalia,
42:17
Speaker 2: and that through investment into the port of Berbera on
42:23
Speaker 2: the Somaliland coast, which is owned by DP World, which
42:28
Speaker 2: is a United Arab Emirates company, that Ethiopia was going
42:32
Speaker 2: to have facilitated through this Berbera Corridor, access to a
42:38
Speaker 2: port through which they could trade and project naval power.
42:41
Speaker 2: Now that sounds like something that Somalia would have an
42:45
Speaker 2: issue with because first of all, it's recognizing sovereignty of
42:49
Speaker 2: Somaliland as distinct from Somalia, which is clearly a problem.
42:54
Speaker 2: But also it's changing the balance of power in the
42:56
Speaker 2: region by giving Ethiopia a name with which they've had
43:00
Speaker 2: fractious relationships, the ability to trade and as I say,
43:06
Speaker 2: project naval power. Now, who funded or who's provided quite
43:09
Speaker 2: a lot of the funding for this, The British So
43:12
Speaker 2: it's been British investment in what's called this Berbera Trade
43:14
Speaker 2: Corridor and indeed into the port of Berbera. And yet
43:18
Speaker 2: at the very same time there is there is obviously
43:21
Speaker 2: a British embassy in Mogadishu in Somalia. So we are
43:26
Speaker 2: absolutely continuing to play both sides and at the same
43:31
Speaker 2: time sort of pretending that we are there acting in
43:34
Speaker 2: the interests of peace and stability. That is quite patently
43:38
Speaker 2: not the case. So the I think one has to
43:44
Speaker 2: look at all these things with an enormous quantity of
43:48
Speaker 2: salt and really consider why any of this is happening,
43:54
Speaker 2: and indeed, you know what the consequences of any of
43:59
Speaker 2: this are. Yeah, I mean it's the whole thing in
44:04
Speaker 2: a way is a it is something of a smoke screen,
44:08
Speaker 2: but it's a very very confused picture. And actually even
44:10
Speaker 2: within government, even within the British government, I have to say,
44:14
Speaker 2: one does wonder and I know this will this will
44:18
Speaker 2: create questions and perhaps you know, make me seem naive
44:24
Speaker 2: because it's slightly going down the world. Is it cock
44:26
Speaker 2: up or conspiracy line? But actually I must say, having
44:29
Speaker 2: dealt with the various government departments, that fund these projects.
44:34
Speaker 2: I can say absolutely for sure that they are not
44:39
Speaker 2: talking to departments that are funding similar projects literally a
44:43
Speaker 2: couple of hundred miles down the road, So that there
44:46
Speaker 2: is within the British government certainly massive element of confusion
44:50
Speaker 2: ast exactly what is cockups? Yeah, yeah, I mean it's
44:54
Speaker 2: absolutely true. It doesn't mean to say that there isn't
44:55
Speaker 2: conspiracy running alongside, and that there isn't that there isn't
44:59
Speaker 2: deliberate you know, deliberate attempt to this is create, create
45:04
Speaker 2: division or whatever. But I can say for sure that
45:06
Speaker 2: the people who are managing the money and actually making
45:09
Speaker 2: these projects happen are doing so in isolation. They don't
45:12
Speaker 2: understand what is going on, you know, probably just down
45:15
Speaker 2: the corridor where somebody else is running a concurrent project
45:18
Speaker 2: with a with with probably an opposing intent with regard
45:24
Speaker 2: to outcome. It's extraordinary.
45:27
Speaker 1: I was going to say, this is the the unfortunate
45:29
Speaker 1: problem with the space that we find ourselves in is
45:32
Speaker 1: that we always have to add a disclaimer when we
45:35
Speaker 1: say something like that. It is a little bit annoying.
45:38
Speaker 1: It is entirely plausible that you have a combination of
45:42
Speaker 1: design and emergence. These things it's it's completely normal for
45:48
Speaker 1: cockups to open, and it's also completely normal for for
45:51
Speaker 1: deliberate ne furious activity to happen. Both can exist.
45:54
Speaker 2: They can and in fact, just to just to articulate that,
45:58
Speaker 2: I do remember being visited because we well, I mean,
46:02
Speaker 2: you know, let's call it sort of military tourism. In fact,
46:06
Speaker 2: again reading from this strategy document, what do they say
46:08
Speaker 2: that the United Kingdom has a has A has a
46:13
Speaker 2: deployed capability in ninety seven countries in the world. Are
46:18
Speaker 2: last year, I think it was, there were four hundred
46:20
Speaker 2: non operational activities conducted through through all these countries, and
46:24
Speaker 2: we have a defense section. So every British sort of
46:30
Speaker 2: consulate outpost or diplomatic outpost will have a defense section.
46:34
Speaker 2: Sorry not maybe not everyone, but but we have a
46:36
Speaker 2: defense section in one hundred and seventy two countries in
46:39
Speaker 2: the world. So you know, the footprint, all the tentacles,
46:42
Speaker 2: whatever you want to say, are are many, and they
46:45
Speaker 2: spread very, very wide. And therefore it means that when
46:51
Speaker 2: you are in some way responsible for any of this,
46:54
Speaker 2: and you're you're high up the pecking order, it means
46:56
Speaker 2: you've got carploi. You can go well, I want to
46:58
Speaker 2: go and visit you know, I want to go a
46:59
Speaker 2: cat and do I sort of, And so you create
47:02
Speaker 2: some flimsy pretext for going to see what the team
47:04
Speaker 2: are up to, and you basically go off on a
47:06
Speaker 2: jolly and and that's all. That's all great. But what
47:09
Speaker 2: is interesting about this is to find out how how
47:11
Speaker 2: whimsical any of this stuff can be. And I remember
47:15
Speaker 2: being visited in Nairabi by the He was then one
47:19
Speaker 2: of the he must be an assistant. He was either
47:23
Speaker 2: vice chief of the Defense staff or assistant chief of
47:25
Speaker 2: Defense staff. I forget, I forget which, but he had
47:28
Speaker 2: so he had sort of overall responsibility, at least on
47:30
Speaker 2: the defense side for what we were doing. And he
47:33
Speaker 2: was Among his entourage was a girl who worked for
47:38
Speaker 2: what's called Defense Intelligence Services. Now she was civilian, civil servant,
47:42
Speaker 2: but the pairing of them, I can remember being in
47:45
Speaker 2: a meeting with them, it just made you think, Wow,
47:48
Speaker 2: this is this is a recipe for absolute disaster. So
47:51
Speaker 2: she was regarded as a bright spark and was therefore
47:53
Speaker 2: on a civil service fast track thing, which meant that
47:56
Speaker 2: she'd spent two years on Africa and then she'd you know,
48:00
Speaker 2: she might be in the Ministry of Transport next. So
48:03
Speaker 2: all of her input, which was considerable, and the way
48:07
Speaker 2: in which she could shape the decision making process of
48:10
Speaker 2: her boss was based on her basically her academic prowess
48:15
Speaker 2: rather than any background or any knowledge in the what
48:19
Speaker 2: should have been the sort of specialist subject area. And
48:23
Speaker 2: so it just it made you think, wow, this is
48:27
Speaker 2: quite incredible. This chap could get on a flight back
48:29
Speaker 2: and think, well, I've seen this and I've been told
48:32
Speaker 2: that I think from next month will do something completely different,
48:37
Speaker 2: and he could just do that now. The consequence then
48:41
Speaker 2: for a hosting African nation could be really quite considerable.
48:46
Speaker 2: So this idea that there is one gigantic conspiracy is
48:53
Speaker 2: not well, at least in the realm of things I'm
48:56
Speaker 2: talking about, is not really credible. Okay, you could say, well,
48:59
Speaker 2: what really what influence did a small team in Nairabi
49:04
Speaker 2: really exert, Well, I would say quite a lot, and
49:06
Speaker 2: again as a as an intelligence conduit back to London,
49:10
Speaker 2: quite considerable. You know, we were there on the ground,
49:13
Speaker 2: we got to see and do the things that well
49:16
Speaker 2: we've talked about this before, but you know, for example,
49:18
Speaker 2: Afri Africa Command from the United States based in Germany,
49:23
Speaker 2: they did not have eyes and ears on the ground
49:25
Speaker 2: in the same way. So there was absolutely a purpose
49:30
Speaker 2: to it and a value extracted from it. But as
49:33
Speaker 2: I say, the way in which things actually transpired were
49:38
Speaker 2: very often confusing and totally contradictory because there can be
49:44
Speaker 2: these extraordinary sort of personality based interventions.
49:50
Speaker 1: This is all sort of macro analysis on a personal level, childs.
49:54
Speaker 1: What did you take home with you?
49:57
Speaker 2: Well, you know the personal level. I mean I as
50:00
Speaker 2: I said at the start, you know that being would
50:02
Speaker 2: you go on, let's start there? Would you go back? Yeah?
50:05
Speaker 2: I mean I think, well, okay, different circumstances and whatnot.
50:10
Speaker 2: I think the way I would look at is would
50:12
Speaker 2: I would I do it again? You know, if I'd
50:14
Speaker 2: got that same fork in the road, is that is
50:16
Speaker 2: that the path I'd have chosen? And absolutely, one hundred
50:19
Speaker 2: times out of one hundred, yes, without doubt, I mean
50:22
Speaker 2: it was. It was completely fascinating and compelling and charming,
50:26
Speaker 2: and yes, I mean it was. Actually it was properly
50:32
Speaker 2: challenging as well. And I think the other bit that
50:35
Speaker 2: I haven't mentioned is that the British Army, for good
50:39
Speaker 2: or ill, unfortunately quite often ill retains access to large
50:45
Speaker 2: training areas up in the north of the country and
50:49
Speaker 2: that we had a relationship with with that units as well,
50:52
Speaker 2: and we were able to put put African troops through
50:55
Speaker 2: those sorts of training serials and whatnot. But no, so
50:59
Speaker 2: from a from a job point of view, yeah, I mean,
51:02
Speaker 2: first of all, one thing that I really shouldn't omit
51:07
Speaker 2: is the detail that my route, because traffic in Nairabi
51:12
Speaker 2: was absolutely terrible. My route to work was a forty
51:17
Speaker 2: five minute trip that took me through Nairabi National Park. Now,
51:20
Speaker 2: Nairabi's a really odd place because it has a really
51:24
Speaker 2: fairly substantial park with everything Lion Leopard that the works
51:30
Speaker 2: in it, and my route to work took me through
51:34
Speaker 2: actually through the park gate and the other side. And
51:37
Speaker 2: so that was pretty incredible to go from having been
51:41
Speaker 2: in a sort of stuffy headquarters in London to being
51:45
Speaker 2: able to effectively have a game drive on the way
51:48
Speaker 2: to work every morning. But no, I think working alongside,
51:53
Speaker 2: working alongside Africans in all capacities. So obviously I was
51:57
Speaker 2: surrounded mostly by military type. We had plenty of civilian
52:01
Speaker 2: staff as well and just functioning as part of that society.
52:05
Speaker 2: And I alluded this to this before in a banter session.
52:08
Speaker 2: But I was very grateful. But the way in which
52:10
Speaker 2: we did it was whilst we wore uniform and drove
52:13
Speaker 2: in marked vehicles, we were we were absolutely part of
52:17
Speaker 2: the community. And and that was that really was terrific.
52:21
Speaker 2: And there's there is you know, you described this a lot.
52:24
Speaker 2: There is there is a freedom. And I would say,
52:27
Speaker 2: notwithstanding the differences between say South Africa and Kenya, there
52:30
Speaker 2: is absolutely a freedom in being in in Africa, in
52:36
Speaker 2: sub shran Africa in particular, it's the In some ways,
52:41
Speaker 2: bureaucratic obstacles can be can be enormous because of the
52:47
Speaker 2: sort of byzantine processes, but actually mostly getting stuff done
52:52
Speaker 2: is so so much easier than one would be used
52:57
Speaker 2: to in a western, you know, so called developed western country.
53:01
Speaker 1: That's a strange. Yeah, that's a strange anecdote.
53:07
Speaker 2: I'm better out of date. But then everything was kept
53:09
Speaker 2: on paper, so there's all that files and filesand files
53:12
Speaker 2: and sort of technically could take considerable periods of time,
53:18
Speaker 2: but actually it sort of tended not to. And again
53:21
Speaker 2: everything you could say this is corrupt, Yeah, okay, corrupt
53:24
Speaker 2: probably is perhaps the right word for it. But just
53:26
Speaker 2: getting stuff done, just getting things, just getting things processed,
53:31
Speaker 2: and having people just dig in and graft for you
53:34
Speaker 2: and realize that. And I think this is so aggressible.
53:38
Speaker 2: This is where we've lost lost the ability in the
53:41
Speaker 2: West to treat each other like human beings. You know,
53:44
Speaker 2: for one reason or another, it is not uncommon to
53:48
Speaker 2: end up in a bit of a bind where you've
53:49
Speaker 2: just got to get something done really quickly because for
53:52
Speaker 2: whatever reason, something, something just has put you under pressure
53:55
Speaker 2: and you want to be able to speak to somebody
53:57
Speaker 2: on telephone and say, look, this has happened. I've just
54:00
Speaker 2: really need it done by the end of today, and
54:02
Speaker 2: you'll just get you'll get the well, we'll aim to
54:04
Speaker 2: respond within five working days or you know, no one cares.
54:07
Speaker 2: Whereas I think in in Africa there is absolutely a
54:11
Speaker 2: recognition of that and and treating people on a human level,
54:16
Speaker 2: and and people really do. I think even in a
54:20
Speaker 2: big city environment, I think people do absolutely look out
54:23
Speaker 2: for each other and and that and that was terrific.
54:26
Speaker 2: And and again I think, you know, for anyone who
54:27
Speaker 2: hasn't been I have talked a little bit about sort
54:30
Speaker 2: of being a white face in a in a sea
54:33
Speaker 2: of black faces. But I must say, just it doesn't
54:37
Speaker 2: it really does not make any difference, doesn't. It doesn't
54:39
Speaker 2: matter what color are. Of course, the other thing about
54:41
Speaker 2: East Africa Uganda less so clearly because of what idiot
54:45
Speaker 2: mean did, but there is there is significant Asian population
54:49
Speaker 2: as well, sort of Indian population. So yes, okay, there
54:54
Speaker 2: are You know that you'll hear people talk about the
54:56
Speaker 2: way in which supposedly those groupings regard one another. And yes,
55:00
Speaker 2: of course there can be sources of conflict, but but
55:03
Speaker 2: by and large, day to day activity, yeah, it's it's
55:07
Speaker 2: a it's a total, a total joy. And yeah, I
55:10
Speaker 2: mean not not without humor. I mean that the there
55:14
Speaker 2: is always funny stuff happening. That is, that is absolutely
55:20
Speaker 2: without a doubt. And I don't mean that, you know,
55:22
Speaker 2: I don't mean that sort of in an unkind way,
55:24
Speaker 2: sort of laughing at but just the way in which
55:27
Speaker 2: things are done. I think as an example, I I
55:31
Speaker 2: sort of I found it so frustrating to watch, but
55:34
Speaker 2: just okay, So I worked in this headquarters we built.
55:38
Speaker 2: We built a headquarters in an area where water was
55:42
Speaker 2: very scarce, and yet every day the guys who worked
55:46
Speaker 2: for the worked for the general commanding the place would
55:51
Speaker 2: wash his car using the fire hoses. So if that
55:55
Speaker 2: if the building catches fire, you were meant to put
55:58
Speaker 2: the building out with the fire hoses, but they were
56:01
Speaker 2: used for washing cars. I said, look, I don't think
56:04
Speaker 2: that's very good idea, because if the building couch is fire,
56:07
Speaker 2: you know, we're kind of done for. I mean, really,
56:10
Speaker 2: what was the likelihood of the building couch via pretty low?
56:14
Speaker 2: And it was just it was sort of a check
56:17
Speaker 2: on myself because because in fact, the other concern really
56:19
Speaker 2: was well, the water is going to run out, and
56:22
Speaker 2: sure enough it did, and I thought, gosh, how silly,
56:26
Speaker 2: you know, why not just conserve the water? And then
56:28
Speaker 2: I think no, I think, well, but why what for
56:32
Speaker 2: the only change apart from the fact that maybe the
56:35
Speaker 2: building would burn down is that you just don't wash
56:38
Speaker 2: the cars, and that doesn't really matter. So the and
56:43
Speaker 2: I can't say that this is this can be the
56:45
Speaker 2: case for you know, all of Africa. All Africans think
56:50
Speaker 2: like this. But actually the way in which resources, I
56:55
Speaker 2: think in particular are regarded is very different. And it
56:57
Speaker 2: does I think it does enable people that certainly a
57:02
Speaker 2: lot of the Africans I worked with and got to
57:05
Speaker 2: know it. It enables a great sort of a more fatalistic, positive,
57:13
Speaker 2: sort of happy go lucky approach to life, because if
57:15
Speaker 2: you've you know, if you've got it, you've got it,
57:17
Speaker 2: you use it. If you haven't got it, well you
57:19
Speaker 2: haven't got it. And that's yeah, I think I think so.
57:23
Speaker 2: And it was really interesting because I think it was
57:25
Speaker 2: it was a good I mean, I know, it just
57:26
Speaker 2: sounds like a really trivial example, but I think it
57:29
Speaker 2: does actually speak volumes about the difference in mindset that
57:33
Speaker 2: in the West we are sort of conditioned to have,
57:35
Speaker 2: you know, it's all about it's all about the future,
57:39
Speaker 2: and this, that and the other. We never ever concentrate
57:42
Speaker 2: on the present. And Okay, washing a car might seem
57:46
Speaker 2: like a silly example of that, but but it's it's not.
57:49
Speaker 2: I don't think it is a sill example. I think it.
57:52
Speaker 2: I think it does strike to the heart of the
57:55
Speaker 2: of the of the differences in which we do regard stuff.
57:58
Speaker 2: And that of course does speak back to this idea
58:02
Speaker 2: of you know, the British government having a defense to
58:04
Speaker 2: plomacy strategy and imagining that the way in which they
58:08
Speaker 2: write that is going to be understood by the people
58:10
Speaker 2: who are sort of subject to that strategy. It's a mismatch. Yeah.
58:16
Speaker 1: Now I'm going to give you an anecdote that is
58:19
Speaker 1: going to unfortunately counter your your good experiences with time efficiency.
58:25
Speaker 1: But that might be a difference between sort of the
58:29
Speaker 1: southern parts of Africa and the sort of northern central
58:33
Speaker 1: parts where you were. But just I mean, as you're
58:36
Speaker 1: coming in for learning, let me tell you the story.
58:38
Speaker 1: So my wife and I a few years ago we went
58:41
Speaker 1: to a friend's wedding in the south of Zimbabwe, so
58:44
Speaker 1: they were on a farm, but just over the border.
58:48
Speaker 1: Instead of flying there, which is actually quite complicated because
58:51
Speaker 1: you have to fly to Harari and then you got
58:53
Speaker 1: to drive all the way done, we decided to fly
58:56
Speaker 1: to Johannesburg and then take a car from Jannersbergen tribe
59:01
Speaker 1: up over the border. Well, this became an experience on
59:06
Speaker 1: its own. Just to get over the border took us
59:10
Speaker 1: around four to half hours. On the Zimbabwean side, we
59:16
Speaker 1: had to go through a whole series of customs and
59:20
Speaker 1: immigration whatever else. And they had in the one in
59:25
Speaker 1: the one area, they had all these all these cubicles
59:27
Speaker 1: with glass and computers, but not one of the computers
59:32
Speaker 1: was plugged in, and they were they were they were
59:35
Speaker 1: all just standing there. Everything was still done on paper.
59:41
Speaker 1: So you were saying earlier that stuff was done on paper.
59:43
Speaker 1: And I found this the funniest thing. Everything had all
59:46
Speaker 1: these computers, but there were no cables. We got through eventually.
59:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I mean, well that said there are, there
59:57
Speaker 2: are absolutely kindly some exact of it. It's a very
1:00:01
Speaker 2: similar thing. I actually remember having coming in through a
1:00:05
Speaker 2: border crossing with the vehicle document the carnade of passage,
1:00:09
Speaker 2: and the guy, the guy at the border had absolutely
1:00:13
Speaker 2: no he'd never seen him one before. He had no
1:00:15
Speaker 2: idea what you're supposed to do with it. And of
1:00:17
Speaker 2: course it's that that that is really really tricky ground.
1:00:22
Speaker 2: It's that was always a very very sticky one potential
1:00:25
Speaker 2: sort of diplomatic incident, because of course you have to
1:00:27
Speaker 2: you have to walk the line between being seen to
1:00:31
Speaker 2: be not telling the person what to do at the
1:00:35
Speaker 2: same time as helping them do it and making sure
1:00:39
Speaker 2: that you don't get that wrong, because the moment you
1:00:41
Speaker 2: tell them, you basically give them the impression that they
1:00:43
Speaker 2: don't know what they're talking about and they're getting it wrong.
1:00:45
Speaker 2: You are in a world of trouble. So yes, going
1:00:49
Speaker 2: back to the sort of the theme of defense diplomacy, maybe
1:00:54
Speaker 2: not defense, but diplomacy was it was always part of it.
1:00:57
Speaker 2: But no, the computer thing, I mean that that is
1:00:59
Speaker 2: a great anecdoting and that Yeah, one of the guys
1:01:02
Speaker 2: I worked with, you know, it was kind of humorous,
1:01:06
Speaker 2: but there was there was absolutely more than a grain
1:01:08
Speaker 2: of truth to it. He always described the people we
1:01:10
Speaker 2: work with as never missing an opportunity, to miss an opportunity,
1:01:15
Speaker 2: and and it was it was very frequently the case.
1:01:18
Speaker 2: So I do go back to the point that that
1:01:22
Speaker 2: it is it is way over simplistic to just blame
1:01:26
Speaker 2: the West or indeed foreign influences for the plight of
1:01:30
Speaker 2: the everyday African. But then again back, yeah, there is
1:01:36
Speaker 2: there's a huge amount of incompetence. But but then but then, actually,
1:01:40
Speaker 2: to be fair, if I look at the amount of
1:01:42
Speaker 2: incompetence in the United Kingdom at the moment, which is
1:01:46
Speaker 2: absolutely considerable, and then I trace that back to where
1:01:49
Speaker 2: I think that's come from, which is the sort of
1:01:52
Speaker 2: combination of indoctrination via education and as kind of nanny
1:01:57
Speaker 2: state removal of risk, all the various things as well
1:02:01
Speaker 2: as unfortunately computers that are plugged in and therefore people's
1:02:04
Speaker 2: brains get unplugged. So these things are all related. And
1:02:09
Speaker 2: I think that that Africa has obviously now suffered I
1:02:14
Speaker 2: say suffered, I mean has has been on the receiving
1:02:17
Speaker 2: end of generations or decades of in a way similar projects.
1:02:22
Speaker 2: You know, the education, particularly of Africans in the way
1:02:25
Speaker 2: that we would regard education is clearly you know, that's
1:02:29
Speaker 2: a disaster and that will that will absolutely in gender
1:02:33
Speaker 2: the types of things that we're talking about. So yes,
1:02:38
Speaker 2: to stop the influence of other countries would I'm sure
1:02:42
Speaker 2: in time yield the great dividend, but the bit in
1:02:44
Speaker 2: between be incredibly uncomfortable.
1:02:47
Speaker 1: Now at this point of the conversation, I normally ask
1:02:50
Speaker 1: my guest, where can I follow your work? But I
1:02:51
Speaker 1: think that's quite obvious UK column dot Org.
1:02:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and for more like this, but also plenty
1:02:59
Speaker 2: of other stuff, and we should well, in fact, we
1:03:03
Speaker 2: are going to be meeting later today because we just
1:03:06
Speaker 2: put out our very first issue of the Column of
1:03:09
Speaker 2: Fantastic New quarterly, which you've designed the front cover of
1:03:12
Speaker 2: and issue too is now well, it's in progress and
1:03:19
Speaker 2: we are in the sort of early stages of designing that.
1:03:21
Speaker 2: So yes, do go to UK column. We've got lots
1:03:25
Speaker 2: on There's a heck of a lot of stuff going
1:03:27
Speaker 2: on there, and a lot for people to think about
1:03:30
Speaker 2: and a lot to consider in terms of what it
1:03:34
Speaker 2: is we are aiming to achieve and also what it
1:03:38
Speaker 2: is that we are saying, because we talk about an
1:03:40
Speaker 2: awful lot of things, but talking about them is not
1:03:42
Speaker 2: to it's just not necessarily to endorse them. And I
1:03:46
Speaker 2: think that's just a point worth It seems to be
1:03:48
Speaker 2: a point that needs to be made because a lot
1:03:49
Speaker 2: of people don't really understand the difference between between discussion
1:03:54
Speaker 2: and endorsement and a no.
1:03:56
Speaker 1: Charles Mallett, thank you were joining me in the Strangers.
1:04:00
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
1:04:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, just by the way, before in the recording, if
1:04:04
Speaker 1: you were French, it would be Charles Malay there.
1:04:06
Speaker 2: Would yeah, yeah, and then that'd be it'd be fourteen
1:04:10
Speaker 2: at least fourteen countries in Africa where I presumed it
1:04:13
Speaker 2: would be recorded as French. Yeah, quite right.
1:04:16
Speaker 1: All right, all right, thanks Charles.
1:04:18
Speaker 2: Thanks