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And After - Towers of Midnight epilogue - EP581 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. So today
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: we're wrapping up the last chapter of the penn Ultimate book,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Penultimate Book.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Last week we did the penultimate chapter of the Penultimate Book, and.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: We were just talking before we turned recording on about
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: how this is very much flavored like the next book.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, we have a lot of.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Notes for it. There's a lot of foreshadowing. There's a
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: lot of it's the last battle now, even not the
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: last battle itself, but just the flavor of Memory of Light.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: This is very much Ah, here we go. And then
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: you note the book.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Stops lots of povs, short povs, sort of one little
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: bit per you know, one little point per each POV,
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: but switching repeatedly at something we're going to see a
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: lot more of in the next book.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, get ready for pov switching like you've never seen.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: This is this is a small taste of what next
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: book is going to be like.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: But this is good stuff. I'm really enjoying it. I
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: think there's a lot of you know, Grendal doesn't spell
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: out her plans or what's going on at the end
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: of the book, right, there's some stuff to like guess
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: about that's not explicitly stated. There's actually some interesting stuff around,
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: like Rand and the dream and how land Fear got in.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: And you know this is that part feels Jordan, That
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: section feels eye of the World level.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Jordan, Yeah, that's really well. Either Sanderson's really like got
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: eye the World open and he's like, Okay, how do
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: I ape this really well? Or Jordan wrote that a
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: little at least that scene down at some point.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: I think he wrote it. I think that's one of
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: those scenes that Jordan had written really early on and
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: knew he was writing to connect with the whole time,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: and just kind of has been sitting in his notes
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: for like thirty years by the time Sanderson was like, Okay,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: here's how I dock with that module and put it
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: into the epilogue and there we go. That's my feeling.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Then I have more questions for you, because when we
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: get there, I definitely want to ask you. Then if
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Jordan wrote that what he was thinking, because I've got
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: some thoughts.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And as we were also saying before recording turned on,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: this is the last battle Tom Honess. This is Tom Hones,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: freshly out of the oven, immediately popped out of the
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: muff and tin, still steaming but like fully formed. This
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: is the Tom Honess that we love from the last books. Here.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Here he is. Here he is as Oliver wins the
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: game in mirror with Matt Tumans is like done cooking
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: as a character.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: This is the setup to his fall, shaking the very
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: walls of Camelin and end of the world. Right that
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: he's the one who realizes that cannons make walls obsolete
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: and that changes everything about war. Delete wall, yeah, basically,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: and the way his fall shakes the world is because
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: of that realization. Because of that, the way that cannons
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: now affect all of I'll call it modern warfare because
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: they have guns, and also because it's the modern age
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: of legends. Yeah.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's exciting, it's fun. There's a lot of foreshadowing
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: for the next book to look at here, and I
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: expect this will not be the shortest recording in the
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: world of what we've been doing, because lately we've been
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: doing the sander Lanche stuff where it's just like action scene,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Cool that happened. This time, I think we actually are
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: because it's an epilogue with Hooks, We're gonna have some
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: stuff to speculate about and foreshadow about a little bit.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: We're going to ease into it. We're going to ease
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: into it. This is nice. You know. It's a hot
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: tub of information, and so I'm gonna dip a toe
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: in and just slide in until I'm comfortable. I'm not
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: just going to cannonball into this one, right, and we're
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: going to soak in it for a while, Yes.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Very much. We're gonna marinade in this last a little
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: bit before closing out this book.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: And after an epilogue and after the epilogue.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: The symbol is the snake and the wheel.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Thank you, honey, I got tea nice. There's something about
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: starting wheel of time with tea. I mean, it's just
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: it's appropriate, right, Like as.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: I say, don't spill it, Yeah, drink it, don't spill it.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: Your computer doesn't need the tea.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Ah, but I'm spilling the tea on the microphone right indeed.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: But that won't happen if you spill tannins into your motherboard.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: These things are waterproof, right.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna read us in now. Grandal hurriedly gathered what
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: she needed from her new palace. From her desk, she
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: took a small angri al Masana had traded her in
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: exchange for information. It was in the shape of a
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: small carved ivory knife. She'd lost her gold ring and
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Althora's attack. Grand All tossed it into her pack, then
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: snatched a sheaf of papers from her bed, names of contacts,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: eyes and ears, everything she had managed to remember from
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: what had been destroyed at Natural Sparrow. Waves surged against
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: the rocks outside. It was still dark. Only moments had
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: passed since her last tool had failed her at Barrow,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: surviving the battlefield that was supposed to have worked. I
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: like that it's very Jordanian in it's not telling you everything.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: She's just fuming. You get little bits and pieces of
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: what she's fuming about and panicking about, but it's mostly
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: you're in the fog of panic. For the fuck of war,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: but fog of panic.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because her plans failed and she was told, you know,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: that was basically her last chance. So because she's had
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: multiple failures, and there's a couple of little bits of information.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: One the fact that Masana can give her an ngreoll
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: that she probably took from the White Tower. Then they've
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: like the number of times have we screamed, like the
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Forsacan can't can't get angre all, but they can infiltrate
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: the White Tower, and the White Tower has onngreoll, Like
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: what is going on there? Why had there not been
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: a distribution of ongrio all out among the Forsagan and
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: that one always confused, And I feel like this is
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: addressing that a little bit to be like, yeah, Missana
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: has access to them, and she just wasn't giving them out.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Like my best guess is that maybe Danell had one
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: personally that had been hidden in her rooms, and so
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Massana felt like she had that one as a trade
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: good that like wouldn't be noticed as missing because Danelle
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: had already made it go missing like before her identity
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: got yanked to be Massana. That's the best I got
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: to explain that one off discrepancy. But it's still a
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: big plot hole.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: And it's a plot hole we've talked about, Like that's
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: a Jordan plot hole that we've talked about.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Repeat it is like, I'm fine miss Anderson not fixing
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: it retroactively at the last, but that's fine.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then only moments of past since her last
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: tool had failed her, you know, at that combined with
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: that idiot white Cloak, makes me think that BYR is
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: who she's referencing here, Like, these are the quotes that
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: give us buyer as her.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Tool, right, and by Our doing that move is like
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: what an hour or two after that battle ends, So
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: it's basically at the same time, right, her entire plan
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: collapsed and then there was one final epilogue of a
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: collapse as by Our also failed. So yeah, she watched
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: the battle. However, she did saw it go down, saw
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: by Our fail and was like, I'm so screwed because
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: if by Our had like somehow succeeded or not attempted
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: it yet, maybe she would still have one last leg
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: to stand on. But because by Our catastrophically failed, she
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: truly has no cards left to play.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: He took himself off the playing board.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: For sure, or well his work husband yet.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Born all did. She talks about strings around the new
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: childlike Empress. I assume that's why the dark friend is
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: placed close to her that man has.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: To call out, Yeah, because Grandal. Also, I believe as
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Hesselam picks up at some point with the Sean Chan,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: she's like found out with men's viewings and that it's Smogetian,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: But I want to say it's Hessalam, but yeah, she
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: has been starting to fill the power of vacuum that
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Semarok left behind. Oh, Athlon's correct to me. It is
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Mugedian that's in that tent in that scene, thank you,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: But yeah, she had been. Someone has to try to
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: step up and take over the Tuon situation because Samarag
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: left that void. So I guess it makes sense that
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: multiple foresaken kind of are making a play for shan
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Chen because sean Chan is relatively a free agent as
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: far as the Dark Side is concerned with the loss
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: of Samarak, because it's not like Semarrog's shared power or
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: left the master codes with anyone else, right, Like, that's
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: a void.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. At this point, the sean Chan are half the continent,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: right essentially right there the west and the south, while
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Rand is the east and the north.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Tuon is, for all her flaws and all
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: her twisted machinations and all of her inhumane nonsense, she's
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: not a dark friend, and she's deeply opposed to dark friends,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: and she will continually choose against the Dark Side when
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: presented with a stark set of options. So they are
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: going to be more of a problem to the Dark
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: One than not at.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: This point, as we see in the Last Battle, right,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: I mean it is there repeatedly. Yeah, I mean it's
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: it's the shawn Chan who really come in and like
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: mop up the forces of the Dark One. Right, they're
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: the ones who like they're the again, they're the America, right,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Like Europe fights the battle for years and years and years, sacrifices,
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: loses all their shit, and then incomes America with air
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: superiority and you know, essentially mops up the end of
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: the war and takes all the credit.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and also, as Vuji pointed out in World,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: probably pretty comparable to air Hole in a lot of ways,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: Like the opposition to the dark is unquestioning at what
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: cost of acceptable crimes against humanity? Is the question?
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: God? You know, what have been great is to see
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: more death all up in with the shawn Chan. And
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: like if that's how he came to the Last Battle, right,
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: as like another he had integrated himself somehow with Tuon, right,
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: because he's Matt's opposite, right, so somehow he's become part
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: of the shan Chan. Because that was back in book
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: two he was trying to get himself in with the
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: Shawan Chan. So come full circle, right, So come full circle,
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: get him back in with the Shawan Chan, have him
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: you know there with Tuon, and then the whole encounter
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: with Matt makes a little more sense because Matt's then
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: going to show up for Tuon and that's where he
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: could encounter Shsam you know, and have that battle and
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: like that I feel like would be a little more
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: make a little more sense. Also he should have died
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: in that battle, right like, so.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Oh and then we could have had tu On watch
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: him die and like experience that, oh, I actually love
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: him now that he's beyond my reach kind of moment
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: where she actually becomes kind of human for a second.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: And he and then she can redeem herself over his death.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: We can fridge Matt, it's fine, yes, And.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Then she can solve slavery in Matt's memory with Matt's
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: sister's help, because it's the closest she can get to Matt.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Is like actually working with his sister Bodwin to like
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: right right right work stuff you know, like in his
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: name because they both miss him in different ways.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Or even work with a gwayn who you know of
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: course won't die because Matt dies.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Right, right, because very sister like relationship to Matt. So yeah,
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: totally we could just fridge Matt. I think Faine just
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: has too much like trauma around how it went last time,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: and he's just like, no, I'm not I've I've tried,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Sean she had once been there, done that, got the
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: shitty tattoo, Like if there's too much fain still left
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: in that creature. It's just like, no, that that didn't work.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: So in Pops the dark One, you know, shout out
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: her on so and I think this is important, right
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: because this is before the dark One sheds his skin
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: and becomes like the darkness in the pit in the mountain.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: He hasn't done that yet.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is still a week or more away from
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: that point. Like he's real close, He's real close to
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: shedding that chrystalis, but it hasn't quite happened yet. Although
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that she is so desperate to
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: escape that she's literally considering hopping to a mirror world,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Like that's how out of car she is. She's literally
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: like I can interdimension hop and just wait for an
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: age and then come back like some sort of Chronicles
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: and Narnia.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: Shit, right, I'm not sure that would work, though, I mean,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: a fuck.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: She's desperate. I don't know that she's got a good plan.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: She just has a plan because.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: The Dark One is a constant. It's the same dark
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: one in all the mirror worlds.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: I also don't know that you could live permanently in
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: a mirror world. I feel like you'd have to come
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: back eventually, like a mouse, like a cat at a mousehole.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Not all the mirror worlds are like the one that
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Ran went to with no life and stuff like that.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Right, But if there's enough life in it to be sustainable,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: then surely the dark One has like a very tangible presence.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Like I'm imagining that if there is such a thing's
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: a portal world where the Dark One can't get you,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: it's not going to be one that can sustain your life.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: I guess I don't know. Yeah, essentially, what you were saying,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: the dark One is a constant, Like, if you're far
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: enough away from the Dark One for him not to
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: be a constant, there's probably not enough reality for you
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: to like.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Exist, Right, that makes sense.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: I think she's Yeah, I think in a dead end
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: in a dead at She's just spinning.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: In circles whatever, whatever the problem is, Like the idea
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: that she could go survive in a portal world is
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: like no, not away from the dark one.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like that was not going to work. So it
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: would have been kind of fun to see her try
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: like have like a whole like you know, world hopping
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: chase scene but a last Instead, we just get shot
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: at her on interrupting her before she could leave the station.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: And dropping lore right, Massiema has fallen. Three chosen destroyed
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: by your actions? Right? So who are the three that
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: we know about? Masana Massana Massana has fallen? And Halima
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Helima right, who was tied up?
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: And as Modian?
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Right, this is this is the lord drop that sort
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: of reveals in quotes that Grendall killed Asmodian.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: This was when dumbasses like me who didn't think it
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: was obvious, we're finally clued in because.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: You start counting and you're like, wait, okay, she has
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with that. Those are the only one
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: that is unknown at this point in quotes is Asmodian.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: And then if you go back and you look at
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: the timing, she was in Camlin at the time, it works.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it absolutely works. Yeah. Actually, in my group chat
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: that I have with Ali and Brie from when we
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: were doing Hot Nuance, we still have that group chat
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: and Discorde obviously, and Ali popped in the other day
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: to be like, I finally got confirmation because she called it.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: She called it as soon as as Modien died. She
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: did her little detective Alley thing and figured out it
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: had to be grand. Oh, it was intuitively obvious to her.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Her and Jordan were on the same wavelength. But she
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: was gloating about having finally reached the part of the
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: book where it's like and now everyone knows.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: And in fairness in want wikis or in the debates,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: like before these books ever came out right back after
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: book five, Grendall was the top candidate, right, there were
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: other candidates and like people, I think, I forget who
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: the other top one was. I think it was Mordan,
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: but I don't remember for sure.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: He's still just the at that point, I.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Think, yeah, yeah, And I think that's one of the
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: arguments against him, is like, yeah, he's been mentioned, but
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: like he's not really a character yet, and so it's
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: kind of hard to make it intuitively obvious that he's
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: done anything right, and maybe Slayer was like another big one.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: But like if you conclude that it had to be
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: bail Fire because the way the words hung on the
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: on the air, then you're pretty much left with the forsaken,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: and of the forsaken, it's either like it's got to
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: be either a Shameael or Grendall, and a Shameel doesn't
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: make a lot of sense because he's just come back
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: as Morgan.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is maybe not intuitively obvious, but it is.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: It's obvious enough if.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: You look, Yeah, exactly logically deductible if you want to
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: put on your detective thinking flow chart hat, Yeah, it's
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: it's there. But I wasn't engaged in the fandom at
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: the time, right, Like I was just off soloing my
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: enjoyment of the books, and yeah, this is the This
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: was the confirmation for me of like, holy crap, it
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: was her.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Like but also like I was so interested in who
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: killed Osmodian that like, I do feel like the first
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: time I listened to this, I immediately knew, Like it
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: took me like just a couple of seconds to be like, no, shit,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: that's who killed Osmodian. There's because yeah, you do the numbers,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: and it's like there's only one unexplained chosen death to
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: fit there.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Booji's laying out the Morden argument that specifically the words
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: death took him and Morden means death, right, this idea
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: that like but you know, I think it was said
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: Jordan said it one at a time. No, that's not
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: what I meant. It's just he died, right, Like that's
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: that's what the words mean, right right. Also, Morden wouldn't
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: be recognized by his moodian they'd be.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Like you yeah, yeah, no that you definitely was directed
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: at one of the other forsaken, Like how could it
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: not be, like the tone is very you bit and
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: then you know.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: That combined with the bailfire, really does like narrow it
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: down to forsaken and none of the people who and
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: it couldn't have been like ron Gar or Osingar or
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: Moroden because they he wouldn't have recognized them, and like
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: and then like you and then there's like a list
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: of the you can account for all the other ones
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: and where they are and so yeah, it really does
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: it boils down to like one or two of the
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: forsaken and Grendhall's by far the best candidate for it. Oh,
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: land Fear was the other big one, that's right, because
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: the idea was that, oh, she got to do a
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: wish because she went through the doorway, and one of
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: her wishes was to get revenge on Osmodian, so she
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: wished to like she couldn't leave permanently, but she was
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: able to pop up long enough, long enough to bail
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: fire him and then get sucked back into the land
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: of the fin or whatever. Right, Like, So there was
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: some theory on that being, you know, because we knew
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: land Fear and Moraine weren't dead, right right, right, right, yeah,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: and she would have reason to get revenge on him, right, Like,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: I think I was firmly in the land Fear category
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: of things, as like, I think that would have been
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: the best person to kill him, and it would make
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: the most sense of her, like, well, I can't escape,
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: but at least I can use one of my wishes
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: to take out that motherfucker.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that would also explain the you because he'd
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: thought she was dead.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. There was lots of good candidates, but also there
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: was only one good candidate. But this was the confirmation
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: for those of us that weren't getting it.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: And honestly, I didn't get this on it. Someone had
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: to point this out to me.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: But yeah, she tries to be like, I didn't do
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: anything to get Masana killed. What are you talking about,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: because legitimately she has no idea she had anything to
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: do with Masana getting killed, like that's literally news to
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: her and shut out her On summarizes it briefly, you
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: were the one that handed out the dream spike, Therefore
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: the buck stops with you when the dream spike is
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: the reason that Masana died.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Right, the reason that her battle was difficult, which I
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: don't know. I feel like that stretches it a little
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: bit unless she should have adapted.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Well, her whole plan hinged on being able to leave
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: the White Tower, like that was step number one to
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: her plan. We didn't even get to the rest of
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: what she had figured out, right, all hinged on well, obviously,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: we draw them out of the tower. Who could anticipate
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: a surprise dreamspike?
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: And you think she'd know well enough that you could
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: teleport to the edge of it, walk across it, and
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: then teleport beyond.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Hard attempt a fast moving battle to follow that trajectory.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Though, Yeah, I guess, I guess. Or do you think
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: the only parent can do that? Because it does sort
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: of knock you down for a second, Do you think
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: it would like?
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: I think the foresakered know how to strengthen their mental
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: will to pass through a barrier like that. They might
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: also have a better way of like finding where the
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: dream spike is. Right instead of wandering around like literally
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: physically looking for it, they might be able to just
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: like triangulate exactly where it is with like a much
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: higher degree of precision.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: They know trigonometry, which.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Is exactly exactly the long lost lore.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: The real magic of the Age of Legends.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, ignore all of the actually like fine architecture that
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: people have been building in the three thousand years since. No,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: they don't know trigonometry at all.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: The ogre knew it. That's that's what makes them so special.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, your stonework and all that.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: It's just knowing physics, knowing maths specifically.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, specifically, just knowing how shapes interact in space.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: So Grendel's pleading for a chance, right, and Shadahran says,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: this opportunity has been given to another. This plays into
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I think what happens with Rand and land Fear.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say which opportunity and which another?
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, so my opportunity is the fact, right, How the
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: hell does land Fear get into Rand's mind? They're under
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: his control, they're warded. Right. The only way we've seen
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Rand's dreams violated in this way is with Moraden because
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: they are linked in brains, and so they are able
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: to communicate across minds and distance because they're basically sharing
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: a body. Right, So I think basically Morden has realized that,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: and the opportunity is to invade Rand's mind in his dreams.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: And it is being given to Sindan.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: To Sindane slash land Fear over Grendel.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: That makes sense because all of Grendall's goals have always
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: been to get to Rand one way or another, either
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: get to him through his allies or directly. So, yeah,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: the opportunity being to get to Rand and mess with him,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: and land Fear being the obvious candidate for who does
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: get to get that?
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: And think about what Grendall is doing in the last
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: battle after she comes back as Heslon.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Dream manipulating the Great Generals. Okay, So she's forced to
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: take the plan that she was going to try to
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: put together for Rand and be like, I guess I'll
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: do it to the great generals. I guess that works too.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: That's fine, that's a thought. Yeah, And then the plan
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: for Rand is being given to land Feir. That's why
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: she's able to fuck with him with his head and
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: get to get through.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Right, Because in fairness, land Feir is better at dream stuff,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: So if we're talking about dream attacks, then it's not
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: like we're downgrading by switching to her as our candidate.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Right. However, Grendall is better at head stuff, right, and
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: this is getting in through the head, So you know,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: I wonder maybe if that's why Grendall would be slightly
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: better at it doing the head compulsion.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not really like she was in line to
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: do this either, right, She's like, let me pivot real
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: quick and shout us her owns, like, no, no pivoting
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: for you. But like, it's not like she was literally
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: like about to go do that already.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: But her being dead that sense, because that would actually
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: help her a lot. If you know, Rand's like, why
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: am I seeing dead forsaken in my head?
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean there's a lot of potential there that.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, she probably could have made this work. She
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: probably could have made a good run at it. But no, instead,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Shadow Haran has to be the worst kind of creepy.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I shall not forget you, and you shall not
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: forget that which comes next. She opens her eyes wide
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: and then how old does he reach for? And as
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: we know, the proclivities of murdrawl and the dark one
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: is to rape the women. And then one would assume.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Kill her, right, yeah, yeah, some sort of rape and
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: torture to death thing, and she extra deserves it because
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: she's the luscious blonde bimbo and of course that's the
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: most desirable of all of them. And isn't it great
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: how the sexy one gets her come up once here
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: at the end?
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Right, So this is this is the payment for being
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: a slot part of the books. So one would presume
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: she's raped and killed and comes back as brought back
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: as hesalam, right, because shed our arms says I will
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: not forget you, right, I'll kill you, but I'm not
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: going to forget you. I have your soul. I'm going
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: to bring you back in a body as punishment, right, and.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: You won't forget because we're doing a soul transmutation rather
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: than a proper rebirth, so you'll still retain your memories
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: of all the horrible things that happened to you, right
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: up to and including the moment of death. But we're
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: gonna call you the bitter one when you set you
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: back out onto the battlefield. It's your fault that you're
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: without forgiveness. That's a you problem. We didn't do that
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: to you. You did that to you. Look what you
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: made us to.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, has the Dark One ever been anything but evil?
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: No? But let this be a lesson to everyone at home.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: Don't listen to the Dark One. Don't believe his lies,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: good devil being Like, Hey, I'm going to torture you
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: forever unless you do a whole bunch of stuff, in
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: which case maybe I'll give you life e ttle until
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: I hold it out as a threat. Again, maybe don't
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: listen to that guy. Maybe that guy sucks.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: I once again really love like Caanus trilogy. One of
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: the things I think it does really well is makes
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: you shin whether the bad guy is the bad guy
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: because he lies so well that like all these other books,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: like why would you listen to the dark One. He's
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: clearly evil, right, like, and like Hans Trilogy, You're like, well,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: I mean I see his point, and like free will
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: really is important, right, So like I suppose I should
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: support him.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: You know, that's good, that's good. I prefer a villain
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: that makes me wonder if they're the villain or not
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: instead of this, just like who could be dumb enough
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: to agree to this? No?
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Because his whole argument is that, like, if you are
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: locked into predestination, you have no free will, and I'm
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: here to break out, you know, break you out from predestination.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: But like, of course, what does that mean? He wants
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: to basically destroy the world, right, Yeah, if there's nothing,
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: then there's no predestination. You know. He goes in this
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: whole like, oh, well, you know, you're gonna come to
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: me and we're going to fix the timeline. We're going
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: to go back in time. You can fix all your mistakes,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: which means if you're fixing mistakes, nothing you do now matter.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: So you can go ahead and murder that whole group
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: of people because you can undo it later. You can
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: control z those murders.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Oh man, that's a good villain. Yeah, that's a good villain.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: If you can control Z murder, would you murder? Yeah,
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: that's a good question for the audience to wrestle with
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: for a greater cause. Uh ooh ahee.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: And then if you're trying to stop that person from
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: control Z because you think it's actually going to destroy everything,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: are you actually the evil one because you're stopping the
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: people from undoing all the murders that they've done for
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: the greater good?
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: That's a brain pretzel.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: Right, So it's I think my Canus trilogy does an
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: ambiguous bat guy really well in a way that that's
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: just not what weel have time is asking. That's not
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: the question we're asking here, right, Like, if the Dark
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: One is evil and people, are you know, willing to
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: make that trade off for power and wealth and jealousy,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: which it turns out, how like height jealousy is apparently
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: a good reason to turn to the Dark One.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: So confusing, all right? So next POV.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go to paren paren in the.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Dream wrapping up his wishy washy what's going on with
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: the wolf balance inside me thing? This is the long
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: awaited final conclusion with Boundless Slash Gnome, and I think
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I might have to apologize to you at some point here.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, why we'll get there, all right, All right, So, yeah,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Wolf'sdream is dying, right, I'm convinced that the Wolf Dream,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: you know, headcanon, the Wolf Dream is the Dark One's prison. Right,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: So as it deteriorates, we're having all sorts of problems
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: as the seals break down, that sort of thing. It's
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: getting holes in it, it's it's falling apart.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Swiss cheesing wibbly wobbling harder than usual.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: And Paren does his whole like I am the matrix
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: moment there is no spoon, there is no spoon, and
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: he tries to, you know, make the matrix in his
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: own image, but of course only God, I mean Brand,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, the Dragon can do that in the last battle,
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: but this it's a little it's got a little shades
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: of the Last Battle and ran sort of creating reality
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: for the Dark One.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Paren is definitely. I mean, he's a tavern, he's
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: a special boy, he's part of the Triad, and he's
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: in the Wolf Dream in his you know, level twenty
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: wolf self. So it makes sense that he thinks he
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: could do that, even if he can't, it makes sense
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: that he thinks he could.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: And I feel like the other way it mirrors the
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: last battle, is that like once you've created life or
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: there's that lifelessness behind their eyes, right the way Rand
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: takes away choice and people yet like there's that like
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: he's taken away the wolf's choice, he's taken away their
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: natural threat. He's trying to recreate that thread and it's
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: it's artificial, it doesn't exist.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking that specifically Avienda. The when Rand
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: looks into the alternate Avianda's eyes, it's just like, but
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: but the violent spark that made her so spicy isn't there.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: And he's, you know, pair looking at Hopper's ized being like,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: but there's there's no hop right, there's there's no desire
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: to soar behind these eyes. And yeah, it's just it's
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: a lesson about you know. It's the lesson that Masana
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: learned against Agwain is like, you are only so much
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: in the face of the world itself. You can only
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: push water uphill in a sieve so far.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: And in that moment, Paren realizes we all have our limits. Ah.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Really, he didn't know that before. We haven't heard him
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: talking about that before. You're so right, that's so profound good.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Job, Paron. I feel like we did that with Rand
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: when he tried to create the platform in the skimming world.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: When he tried to he's like, he created as big
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: as the courtyard and he tries to expand it out
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: and it goes translucent and he brings it back to
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: courtyard side and he's like, we have our limits. We don't.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: And I don't know if that was self imposed because
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: that's how big I thought of it as first, or
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: if that's actually like about how much my power can
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: go in, but that like we have our limits thing
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: is there? Same thing with gayways, right, everyone has their
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: limits is how big they can make a gateway, and
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: those limits seem to exist irrespective of strength or you know,
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: talent or anything like that, right.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: Or like we do have that one kinswoman whose talent
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: is not having real really limits on her ability to
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: shield someone she can shield ninive, right, normally there's a limit,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: but like her talent is not having a limit. I
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: also think it's hilarious that parent thinks there are no
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: limits seek boundless limits, boundless limits, limitless boundless bounds, just like, Okay,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: so there's limits, and we're gonna go to a guy
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: whose name literally means the opposite of that for an explanation.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Cool cool cool.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that was just a clever piece
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: of writing, or if that was intended from the beginning.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: I think it's an accident. It's just it's not quite
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: funny enough to feel deliberate.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's And in this moment, Paren has no idea
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: that Boundless the Wolf and Gnome the wolf brother are
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: the same person.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, that is a big part of what Hopper could
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: have explained to speed round this whole thing. It's just
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: that is a man like you or a wolf brother
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: like you different and.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: You know so. And Paren knows where Boundless is. He's
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: just a wolf in the wolf's dream that he's encountered
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: many times, seems.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: To be, but always in a certain area. He's always
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: geographically located around this part of the world. He's also
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: weirdly stuck on the image of Paren as a bowl
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: trampling a stag more than the other wolves. And I
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: wonder if that's a bit of his human humor sticking
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: through that. He's just a little bit more stuck on
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: the absurdity of it, whereas the wolves are a little
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: bit more like prone to moving on, but he's just
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: got that human tendency to be like, hey remember that time.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: So here's my question. Is Gnome in the Wolf's Dream permanently.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: As in dead? Yeah, I was wondering that. I was
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: wondering that is Gnome actually living wild man's style in
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: an old abandoned wolf dend and just eating raw fish
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: as a human and sleeping as much as he can
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: or has he actually died and awoke in here permanently, because.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: He says, you know, Paren worried that man would die quickly,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: but he seemed alive, did well alive at least. Paren
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: couldn't judge much about his wellness from how the man
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: looked in the wolf dream. And it seems there that
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: he's able to tell that a wolf that's alive and
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: projecting versus a wolf that is actually dead in the
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: wolf dream. But it's hard, you know, I don't think
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: there's any real way for him to tell the difference.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no evidence anywhere else in the I mean,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: I guess that's not true. There are times when he
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: says that he knows there's wolves alive and dead who
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: are like joining in with a moment of mourning or
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: a moment of triumph, Like he does have that sense,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: but I think I've always assumed it was more just
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: that he could tell there's so many wolves that clearly
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: some of them have to be ghosts because there's just
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: too many like responding.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: And we see them form up on the last battle,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: right when the when Tara Lelei Ronriodd sort of merges
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: with the real world, you have ghost wolves.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So there is a suggestion that he can tell
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: the difference between a living and a dead wolf in
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: the dream, But I don't know if it's clear enough
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: on the page for me to be confident that he's
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: right about reading a wolf brother, because he's literally never
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: interacted with another wolf brother. He will interact with Long
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Tooth in the dream during the last battle, but I
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: believe that this is the first time he's ever talked
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: to a wolf brother in the dream and known it.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Obviously no has been here before, but there's no other
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: wolf brothers, Like, how would he even know?
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Because Elias avoids the dream exactly exactly.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: He shows up to parent in the last battle because
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: it's the last extreme of communication. But I could also see,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe Nom is just living in the woods,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: like Julia of the Wolves style, you know, just living
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: with a wolf pack and they just accept him as
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: a weird wolf and they have a better time talking
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: to him and interacting with him at night. But like
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: they're fine keeping his human body alive just because he's
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: a member of the pack. Like maybe that's going on
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: hard to say head canon at will.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, and what is followed is probably the biggest retroactive
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: character assassination I think Sanderson ever engaged in.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's why i have to apologize to you,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: because I've been insisting that this is not what you've
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: been saying it is. And on the page, I'm gonna
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: have to own that I've been misinterpreting this and you've
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: been having a far more correct read on how this
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: little story got told. But I appreciate you framing it
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: as character assassination because I do not think that this
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: is really who Simon was in Jordan's writing.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Agreed. Yeah, when you look back at that paragraph, he's
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: like very caring for parent, he helps parent hide his eyes.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: He does like he is very much this kind gentle man.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: And I know that you could be making a point
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: about like in private there one way, and in public
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: they're another way. But like it's implied here that the
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: anger in the violence is against him for having the
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: eyes and being a wolf brother, and like that person
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: would in no way have engaged with paren the way
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: he did back in book whatever. Three.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that I got that he
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: was enraged about the golden eyes from this.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay, that's fair, that's fair. It could be something.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Else, yeah, because what I got from this was that
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: their father was a violent and abusive man that beat
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: their mother, and that then as adults, Simeon was exhibiting
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: that same rage. But I didn't see anything about what
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: it was triggering it or who it was directed at,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: just that like, oh, that that rage that our father
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: was displaying is being mirrored in my brother, and that's
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: it's too much.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't see anything about the dad. I don't
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: know where you're getting any any Like.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: The dad is a large, stout man, half drunk, beating
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: a pretty woman. That's in the first paragraph, and then
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: kept sending images one after another a grave, a smaller
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: grave beside it as if for a child. To me,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: that says that he got married and then his wife
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: died and his child died. Like to me, it reads
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: that the first paragraph is the pain of his childhood
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: and the second paragraph is the pain of his young adulthood,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: and it's like it never ended. And then somewhere around
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: you know, twenty twenty five, his eyes went gold and
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: he was like, there's an escape. That was how I
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: read it. But I do think that Simeon is the
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: second man being enraged and it's being like, oh, the
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: cycle of our family's trauma never ends. It's just going
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: to be this over and over.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: I read that those is the same man that it's
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: that he's talking about this because if you look at
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: his brother, his brother is described as a large, stout
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: man with a wide mouth and no chin.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because he looks like his dad. I mean,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know. The beating a pretty woman part just
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: feels like a domestic violence scene as through the eyes
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: of a child. That's just how that's always read to me,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: is him watching his father beat his mother and having
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: just his life start out in a place of fear
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: and terror. But yeah, I mean, is the grave with
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: a smaller grave beside it his mother and a sibling
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: that got lost, or is it his wife and a child.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know who else it would be, but either way,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: small grave beside a large grave suggests to me like
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: very tragic, rapid succession of death.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I read that. The way I read
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: it is that Siamon beat his wife and child to
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: death and continued to beat nome.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: That's a way worse characteristics.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying, and that's how I read it.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I prefer my interpretation that right, because.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: You have this first bit in the beginning, right, pain, sadness,
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: dying crops, right, so you have basically hard economic times.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: So a large stout man, I'm assuming this is his
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: brother beating a pretty woman, his brother beating his wife,
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: and then there's these images right, one after another, a grave,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: his wife dies, a smaller grave, his child dies. Why
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: is the fire getting larger? It's not because of more people.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: And then a man knows brother still, I believe, referencing
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: that same man, a large stout man, Like I don't
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: think this is a different man.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: I think it is because there's a large stout man,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: and then there's a man not the same man, not
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: the same man, but older. It seems to me like
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: there's two different men. To me, it seems like his
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: life has been nothing but pain from the jump, like
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: he was born into a family and then the dust
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: bowl happened, and then his father became an alcoholic and
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: beat his wife, his Nome's mother, And to me, it
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: just reads like he's never had a happy time in
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: his life until he found the wolves. There was no
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: happy childhood for him to like yearn for I.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: Kind of assume Siamon was an older brother who basically
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: raised him and was beating him the whole time.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear you, but I don't agree. I think
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: my head canon makes more sense. But sound off in
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: the comments. Who's right? There is a definitive answer? Definitely,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: no vote on the truth.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: No, there's not. No. So I see now why we've
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: had different interprets of these events. But because it's seemed
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: very weirdly through the eyes of somebody, through somebody else.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: And it's all flavored by trauma.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and doesn't match our experience of those people at all.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: It's confusing. But the takeaway is that Paren is able
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: to understand that for Nome, this was the balance, this
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: was the choice, this was peace, and that's all that
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: you know. Ultimately matters is that Paren understands that peace
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: is not a thing that's going to run away from you.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: It's a thing that you run towards in this regard.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, I'm just I'm really I'm struggling even with
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: just this characterization of him, because he like is very
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: kind to parent and brings him his meals and.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Nome hadn't been in the cage for that long because
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: it's not a sustainable place to keep him. So it's
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: not like Simeon just last week changed all of a sudden, right,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Like it seems like he's been a kindly person. I
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: imagine he just like had some anger issues at it
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: as a younger man scared Nome. Maybe he was a
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: significantly older brother and was kind of stepping in as
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: the father figure and like flipping out. One particular instance
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: was like enough to convince Nome that the cycle will
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: never change, even though Simon was really just you know,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: had a headache and stubbed his toe and was behind
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: on the electric bills and like it wasn't that but
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: like trauma triggers or trauma triggers, because yeah, Simon seems chill,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: self effacing, humble, not dangerous exactly. Religion scary experiences stick
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: in the head so much harder. We don't get given
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: an age difference between the brothers, but I could totally
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: imagine like a big gap between them. The dynamic there
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: could totally be that. Again, I really don't think that
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Nome chose the wolf because of a short period in
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: his life.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: Right right, one would assume this was abuse from a
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: young age.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: Otherwise, why would he give up on humanity all the way?
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Like parent asked, what do you think of the world
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: of men? And it is nothing but misery? Like I
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: don't think that he let one instance like color his
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: whole life. I think it was just a never ending
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: stream of misery.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: But the other thing, ah gosh. But then the other
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: thing I was thinking is just like the dying crops
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: would be like recent, because that would be the climate
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: change that happened like the year before.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Crop failures happen all the time. Randon Matt even mentioned
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: it happening in their childhoods, Like that's a normal part
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: of agriculture.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: That's just someone who's like finances have collapsed, yeah.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Or like maybe a war swept through or a minor
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: border skirmish that didn't even make it to the capitol,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: but was enough to torch the field that year, or
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: you know, Blake Gut brought in or something.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Giladon isn't exactly the most stable place.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Very very back and forth with the warring and the
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: rating and all of that. And Fuji brings up a
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: point I wanted to mention, this is kind of like
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: and you could see this easily as an analogy for
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: the neuro diversion experience of being surrounded by neurotypical people
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: having no room for difference. I was thinking of, particularly
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: parent's experience at the end of like hearing Boundless say
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: the wolf is peace and then pairing being able to
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: relax into that, and how much it's like when you're
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: completely masked and completely distressed, when you're in a cage
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: being expected to be a human. You look awful, right,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: You are cranky, you are angry, You are getting sent
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: to psychiatric hospitals, you are being put on the wrong medications.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: If you get to find what gives you peace, if
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: you get to obsessed with that wheel of time and
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: not go to school and whatever other thing it is,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: and then you get to just be in the woods,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: be a wolf. That is peace, and then you look
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: way chiller and you're way more mellow and you're way
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: more happy. And that's Paren. Not needing to go run
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: away into the woods, right, He doesn't need to have
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: a weighted blanket and ear defenders. But understanding that there
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: are accommodations that will work for him and relaxing into
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: what does make him feel good is the key. This
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: is the unmasking key. Is you do what makes you
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: feel good, not what makes the other person feel good.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: You just mimic the feeling of them being good by
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: whatever means that gets you there. That was what it
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: was making me think of.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. No, I was thinking about the autism, you know,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: just the and like the balance of like how do
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: you find like how much you interact with people versus
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: how much do you value your piece? And everyone has
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: a slightly different balance there, right, Like I think it
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: all feels it and feeds into that for sure.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And we've used paren as a vehicle for understanding
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: the autistic experience before, with the hyper empathy and the
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: low social skills and the hyper smell sensitivity.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: And like taking things literal.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and even the ADHD like overlap with being multi
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: track in some ways and really hyper focus tunneled in
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: other ways. Like paren has been a vehicle for this
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of times. So I'm not super shocked that
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: this massive personal revelation of his should fit so well
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: into that cosmology of analogies.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Simone might actually not be a not
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: big dude.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: He's a froggy looking dude.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there we go. There was nothing. No one lofd
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: at his head and stared at them silently without expression.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: There was nothing about him to suggest he was Simone's brother.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: He had a chin, for one thing, and he was
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: a big man with heavy shoulders.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, so Simon is distinctly not a big man
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: with heavy shoulders, notably not that so really cannot be
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: the first man in the set of memories.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it really invalidates. But god damn it, now
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: I have to apologize to you.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: Fuck ah uh.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad I did that research because I wanted
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: to go back and look at the Dragon Reborn and
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: see like what I could about Simone and how he
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: was acting.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: So I'm glad you went back and read that because
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: that would have been a good passage to bring up
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: and be like, okay, like, how do these work? Is
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: this character assassination? What's going on? What if the reason
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: that the man was beating up the woman was because
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: they're half siblings, Like he was beating up their mother
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: because he knew that he was not the father of
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: the younger child or something.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: And the reason Noame's brother is enraged is because the
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: child and the woman died, right, not because of anything
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Noame did, I mean any.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Kind of in anything. It could have been another crop failure.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: It could have been Noame being unable to help with
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: starting up the bar the tavern like Davia feeling that
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: any number of things that could have set him off
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: would have made Nome just be like that's it. We're done.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: I can't, I can't with.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: This, okay, So all right, I am now head cannoning
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: that it's his father who was the enraged, large man
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: who did the beating and the only reason that Noam's
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: brother was enraged was because of the things this large
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: man did to his family, and that at no point
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: are we saying, despite everything I read online that says,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: note that Simon was the one who was beating him,
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: that he was in raged because he was beaten, not
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: because he was beating him.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the Internet's wrong. I think I'm right.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna have you right. You've convinced me. That took
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: a lot of side reading and a lot of cross referencing,
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I agree. I think that his father would
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: make sense. It's a large man, because Nome's father would
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: be large like Nome, and that doesn't change who Siamone
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: is from the character we met. He could still be
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: angry about the damage Nome's father caused without being the
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: one who was beating No.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because if Nome is enough traumatized, it doesn't
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: matter what Simeon's intentions were with that little explosion. It's enough,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: particularly if like it took him a while to get
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: his anger management issues under control, if he had like
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: a very angry twenties and then mellowed out in his thirties,
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: that could have been enough for him to be like,
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: you're never gonna change, dude. And then Simeon, you know,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: is well into his thirties, maybe even in his forties
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: by the time Paren meets him and is like actually
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: chilling out, and Gnome is just like, no, never, I'm
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: not trusting you, Yeah, it's sad tale. I mean, Boundless
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: is having a good time, but it is a sad
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: story of a person who literally found more peace by
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: cutting off their family, going totally no contact with their
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: family and running away to the woods and just living
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: their own best life with no friends but other wolves.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: You know, happy for him now, but it's tragic.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: And then we get sort of the cathartic moment with Paren, right,
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: the image of young Bull the wolf and Paren the
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: man standing beside one another atop a hill, their sense
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: the same. He sent that image outward as powerfully as
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: he could to Boundless, to the wolves nearby, to anyone
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: who will listen. So at that moment, like that's his balance.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: He is equally balanced between the wolf and the human.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: They are both him, neither one is invading the other
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: or taking over the other. Like you know, in the
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: same way that Rand has found his balance between ltt
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: lewis theren telemon and you know, Ran the farmer parent
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: has found his balance between the wolf and himself.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's stopped fighting the center of gravity that has
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: been pulling at him this whole time. He's just like, no,
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: that center of gravity is where my balance is, and
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: I'm here now, and I'm going to stop being annoying
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: every time I meet every other wolf and we all
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: new I met this, I met that.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: And in the same way that Matt fully embraces his
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: luck with his missing eye, when he's like, oh, yeah,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: I don't need to worry about my eye. I'm just lucky.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Matt's balance with his voices in his head was
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: always easy for him. His balance with his luck is
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: what he really struggles with. But yeah, Matt has learned
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: luck works better when you don't look at it anyway.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: Because you know, what about my damn luck, like not
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: really understanding what was making him.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: Lucky, right right, yeah, and still needing to have certain artifacts.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: But then you know, in the time of Genji, he
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: learned that he can just have luck on sheer gumption.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: He doesn't need dice. Speaking of dice, shall we uh
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: head over to Oliver and tom.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: Annis believe it's time to toss the dice?
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Yes again?
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, nice, well done, well done.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: The audiobooks are consistent about that. Among so many pronunciations
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: that varied, they got that one pretty consistent.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: I feel like that that's hard enough that they like
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: had to practice it together as opposed to like the
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: names where they just like Dean whatever.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally, totally so.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Oliver rolls his last role, and of course it's
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: all black dots, which I assume is the only way
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: to win is like to get this incredibly lucky, very
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: unlikely throw at just the right moment when the whole
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: rest of the game has been going your way.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing to us. I think that there
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: is no way to win. I mean, that's why Tom
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Honis is so confused, is that there is no way
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: to win. He's like, we have to have counted wrong,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: we have to have done one of our moves wrong.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: There's literally no way to win. I assume that means
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: that even of rolling that twenties the whole way wouldn't win.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: I think it's just one of those one in a million,
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: statistically very very unlikely to win situations.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: That is the only way to square it with Matt's
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: actual luck. Though that is true.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: It's like one in a million chances is good odds
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: for him.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, Nano fair, You're fair, That's totally fair. It's statistically
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: very unlikely to roll twenty twenties.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: But if you were to right, kind of like shuffling
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: a deck to reshuffle it back to just like ace
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: through you know.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: King statistically possible, but it's never going to happen, right
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: right Like, And like when I mean never gonna happen,
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: I mean like you can shuffle a deck more ways
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: than there are atoms in the observable universe, right Like,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: It's never going to happen ever, unless you have some
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: statistical luck or you're cheating, right right, And in this case,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: this is one of those things where tell minus is
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: like you don't reshuffle a deck back together. That's simply
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: not know, but like empirically yes, because Matt Matt is
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: the dux machina that makes that sort of statistical anomaly possible.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: All right, So here's my theory. Oliver is actually Matt's
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: good luck charm.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: I've kind of thought this before too. If Oliver hadn't
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: been playing right as a whole, rescue might not work right, right.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Because I'm trying to think, like when does when does Oliver?
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: When does he pick up Oliver? Let's see first appearance
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Lord of Chaos early Lord of Chaos doesn't match up
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: at all with Matt's luck in no way is. It's
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: not a good theory whatsoever, But I don't care. I
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: don't care.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: It's okay, It's my head canon is less that Oliver
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: is the good luck charm, but the fact that Oliver
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: and to a certain extent TOI Monius are playing Snakes
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: and Foxes is like a reinforce, like an amplifier, right
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: of what Matt is doing, Like his people are playing
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: the game on the outside while he's playing the game
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: on the inside, and there is a metaphysical resonance amplification
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: kind of thing there.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Somehow a link between the two. Yeah. Yeah, in the
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: same way that there's a link between Rand and the
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: battles right when sky fighting word in Right, there's.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Some I mean, that's why they win, right, because they
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: are tied to Matt. I have a hard time imagining
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: that's not a two way street.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: It's Jim, what year is it? Matt come out with
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: Tom Moraine like Moraine in this case would be Robin Williams, right,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: because she's in there for a while and they have
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: to go in and get her back out again.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, now I want Robin Williams playing and Is to die,
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: just like Robin Williams doing his very best Moraine impression
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: and then being unable to whold character for more like
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: three seconds because he's Robin Williams.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Robin Williams as Varren.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh my god, Robin Williams would have
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: made an amazing Barren missus Doubt fires right right, like
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: doubt fires to die. God, that would have been amazing.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we're in in Oliver's head, and he is.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: He's written like a lot of children, the way Sanderson
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: writes children, right, Like, I don't know if that's a
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: good thing or a bad thing, but I started reading
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: this it was like it was and I've read if
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: you've read Star Site, Sanderson's sort of young adult, He's
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: written a couple of young adult books, right, and like
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: he's written, oh okay, that the Librarians of Alcatraz series,
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: the Alcatraz series, which is all about like a kid
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: fighting evil librarians, right, And he's also written a space
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: based children's series which isn't technically cosmir but it is.
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: The Magic System is clearly based around the Cosmo Magic System.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: He just couldn't find a way to include it in
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: the Cannon. Oh yeah, and then he wrote a superhero
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: trilogy with Steelheart. I forgot about that as well. So
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: he's written a lot of like more kids' books, just
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: sort of on the side, like I only say kids
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: books young adult very much more young adult fiction.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: Where you're in the head of a person who's transitioning
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: from kid to young adult and going through that whole. Yes,
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: like arc Thing and so Oliver here is recognizable from that.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: I like it. I like he's cute.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: He's cute, And if anything, I'd say Sanderson's writing style
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: fits young adult better than adult because there is just
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: like less subtlety to it. It is just more straightforward
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: in a way that I feel like fits a young
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: adult style. I almost prefers young adult books to his
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: Stormlin archive right, not necessarily because they're better, but because
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: like his writing style fits that genre. I think really.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: Well, Yeah, I will say that when I read Miss
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: Bourne Era one, it definitely felt way more young adult
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: to me than adult, which is like, I love my
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: younger like I reread my young adult books from childhood
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: that I kept like, I have a very soft spot
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: in my heart for the young adult genre. And yeah,
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: his if you imagine his books are young adult, then
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: it does kind of fit better of the you know,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: whole four that I've read, not including the Wheel of
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: Time books because he wrote those in conjunction with Jordan.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: It's not the same.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: It's a fun, little yeah story he's telling himself.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I like being an Oliver's head. I think
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: he's I think that what's going on inside matches who
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: he is on the outside. I very much can believe
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: this is the character I've been observing since book six.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Right, the idea that he's going after the shidow, that
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: he's learning to fight because he wants to go off
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: the shidow who killed his father, and like he's going
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: to be the leader, He's going to be the next Matt,
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: and Matt's going to come along on his adventures. Right,
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: this is very much like wanting to be like your father,
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: Like he sees Matt as this ideal that he wants
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: to become. Right, That's why he does all the womenizing,
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: That's why he does learning to fight. But it's all
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: also he has this external thing, which is finding the
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: shadow who killed his father, and his plan, which is
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: to go into the snakes and Foxes, ask them questions,
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: find out who it is, and get his revenge.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he is very much imitating Matt in mannerisms, in humor,
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: in wild ass decisions to go face God's with nothing
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: but a stick and a cocky sense of confidence. Right,
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: He's consciously aping Matt because he knows he wants to
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: do things that are as epic and impressive as what
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: he sees Matt doing. I mean, even down to the humor,
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: he's even imitating Matt's sense of like casual, like, well,
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: he's gonna owe me at some point, but he'd better
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: be nice o the wise I'll leave him behind. Like
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: that is so Matt's style of humor, but like at
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: a child's speed. When imagines Matt was a lot like
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: this as a child.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's kind of why he picked up Oliver
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: in the first place, right, because it reminds me of
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: him of himself a little bit that sort of.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Well more it was because Oliver was going to get
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: hit by a noble, Yeah.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: But putting himself in that situation and to get in trouble,
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: I think is where Matt sees.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Himself a little bit little bit. But then Oliver was
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: also like I am a velcrow orphan, and you can't
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: get rid of me, and Matt accepted it.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: So he wins the game, right, and with the typical
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: well of course I did, right, Like, that's just a
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: matter of time.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: Why would he play if it couldn't be won? But
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: he's glad that he won because he was starting to
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: think it wasn't winnable. And I'm just like, and this
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: is why he's going to do things that actually rival
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: Matt right life, because he had this moment of thinking,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: I don't it's not possible. It's not possible. It is possible.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: He's gonna never give up. This is the stuff that
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: heroes are made from, right, like heroes of the Horn.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: This is that energy. He's going to be ta Verrin
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: on sheer gumption.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: And having this experience early on can vaccinate you against failure.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's formative.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a formative success where you're like, well, if
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: I just keep trying, eventually I'll succeed. And if you
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: fail at multiple things, he's like, yeah, but remember that
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: time that I won the game that couldn't be won.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: Right, right, exactly. This sort of thing can become very
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: toxic if you get given too much that you're a
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: special boy, that the universe is looking out for you.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: Like this can be very toxic when someone takes it
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: too seriously. But in this world where Tavern's a real
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: thing and Matt's your actual friend, is probably just gonna
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: make him a pretty epic you know, Night of the
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Seven Kingdoms or whatever.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: Matt and Jane, Forrest Rider and Brigida and like, yeah,
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: he's had a few heroes of legend, not to mention
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: the entire band of the Red Hand raising him up.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's going to assume that that is how normal
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: people behave, and he will conduct himself accordingly and have
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: an epic, epic reputation as a result. And probably either
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: turns out he is a hero of the Horn other
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: than God Okain, or he'll get inducted into it, or
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: he'll just you know, live in stories that outlast all
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: the Taban Boys in terms of detail and accuracy.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: Or he turned into a horrendous murderer just slaughtering Ieel wholesale,
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: trying to find the one who killed his father and
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: we have a like hero at a villain's origin story, just.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: The butcher of Rudian and Stuffy. Yeah exactly, Yeah, I mean, yes,
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: it's easy to imagine this going in a very toxic direction.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: But I choose to believe that he has a heart
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: of gold because he was raised by Matt's.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Totally totally No, I'm more thinking about it from a
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: storytelling point of view, not what Oliver would actually become.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely, And then I love this little callback.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: Oliver's favorite color is red, so when he sees the
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: red wax seal on Varren's letter, he grabs it. Right, Remember,
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: the red coat was always a big thing.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: I never thought about how red is kind of his color.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: The red's totally his color.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: Right, ever thought about that?
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: He stops and looks like that's the whole thing. When
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: they're looking for him in Abu Dhar, Matt stops everything
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: red and is like, have you seen a boy in
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: a red coat? Because there's like red balloons or something.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: I don't remember.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, balloons a thing that exists in this world. There's
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: ninety nine.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: I say, yeah, I was gonna say, I'm red baounds.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I forgot that it was his favorite color, but
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting that he identifies it as
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: being like the color of blood, given you know the
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: large quantities of blood that are starting to be spilled, right,
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: about then as the trollocks come out of the way gate,
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: there is that. Yes, you know, the pattern is like,
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: all right, look, the blood letting has begun. Can we
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: get some back up now?
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: I mean agent of the pattern, Oliver right, like between
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: blowing of the horn and you.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: Know, yeah, yes, totally. And I love that. Part of
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: the reason why this happens is because he's trying. He's
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: doing like a very like Amelia Badelia autistic, like I'm
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: following the rules and I was told that if there's
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: a letter, you're supposed to open it, and Matt's being rude,
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to be the better man than Matt
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: because Satala taught me the rules. And I just love that,
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: like child logic, it's so believable. It is so believable
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: child logic, and that is how the pattern is able
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: to just slid on in there and get him to
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: crack this and yeah, he can read it good enough
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: to be like, uh, tamanis this other dad? Other dad?
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: I need an adult. I think I just came across
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: some very serious information. Oh my god, Marzapan, you're so
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: right post series, I ye are the police because the
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: Dragon's piece, so Olver's gonna be full on acap So yeah,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: Tomani's comes over and proving that he is both Oliver's
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: dad and Matt's husband. He takes very little convincing now
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: that the seal has been broken. He like reads it
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: like a boy, like stealing a cookie, but like he's
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: he's so prim and proper and he's always follows the rules,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: and he has a thousand pairs of boots, but like
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: it's right there, it's right there, and Oliver's saying that
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: it's important, and like, surely, surely Matt will understand, right, and.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: I can read it, and if it's not important, then
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: I can close it back up. And you know, Matt
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: never has to know that we read it. And if
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: it is important, then I can do something about it.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: And of course it's important.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: And then he reads it. He drops multiple f bombs
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: and runs out of the tent without He drops the
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: letter so that Oliver can read it to the audience.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: But like he yeah, he goes from guilty to oh shit,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: oh fuck, oh holy shit, working.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: Bald read Matt wrong? Fuck?
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all the times for an iside to be wrong?
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: Oh my god.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: No, and you get her logic right, This idea that
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: she believes that Matt's curiosity will overwhelm his need. He'll
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: need to find out what's in the letter, but it'll
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: lay a couple of days that if she gets the
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: oath Rod and comes back, she can prevent she can
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: just I don't know why she doesn't want him to
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: open the letter anyway, right, Like, why would she come
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: back and stop him? Wouldn't she just want the letter
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: to be opened and they'd find out about the Trolleck
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: convasion either way? Yeah?
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Why does she not want him to What does she
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: want to be the one that breaks the news about
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: the Waygate to Elaine? Is she like this is eyes
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: to die business, and it's a backup to have a
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: man communicate.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: About it, right, Like, It's like that's such a weird backup.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: It's like, why not send that letter to Elaine? Why
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: not just send the letter to Elaine and say hey, oh,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: because she can't send the letter until after she's poisoned herself,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: because that's a betrayal.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: Oh because of her Okay, Okay, she can't just say,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: read this letter while I'm standing here, because that would
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: be a betrayal. She has to say, you can't open
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: this until I'm definitely dead, otherwise she wouldn't be able
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: to hand it over right that there we go.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: Or until or I can come back and take it
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: from you. If I can't, you know, free myself.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, totally, totally so.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: I think I think the dark oath explains the weird
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: long thing.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So do you want to read the whole letter?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: Or should I read the letter? Because it's it's.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: Veryn Yeah, I think you should read it, okay, all right.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's just it's it's juicy, all right, matrim
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: If you are opening this, then I am dead. I
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: had planned to return and release you of your oath
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: in a single day. There are many potential complications to
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: my next task, however, and a large chance that I
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: will not survive. I needed to know that i'd left
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: someone behind who could see this work done. Fortunately, if
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: there's one thing I believe I can rely upon, it
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: is your curiosity. I suspect you lasted a few days
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: before opening this letter, which is long enough for me
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: to have returned if I were going to. Therefore, this
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: task falls upon you. There is a waygate in Caitlin.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: It is guarded, barricaded, and thought secure. It is not
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: an enormous force of shadow spawn moves through the ways
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: toward Camlin. I do not know when they left exactly,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: but there should be time to stop them. You must
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: reach the Queen and persuade her to destroy the waygate.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: It can be done. Walling it up will not suffice.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: If you cannot destroy it, the Queen must bring all
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: of her forces to bear upon guarding the location. If
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: you fail in this, I fear Camlin will be lost
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: before the month is out. Sincerely, fair in Mathwin. That
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: was about a month ago that she handed it over.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say almost exactly a month ago, considering the
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: Camlin's on fire, which means the invasion has happened.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: Already as of tonight, the night that he opened it.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and one would say it already happened after before
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: it was like, like, that's the thing that forced Oliver
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: to open it, is that the invasion actually happened because
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: they were Yeah, because we're talking literally seconds since Oliver,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: maybe like two to three minutes since he's opened it,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: and if Kamblin's already on fire and the smoke is
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: already visible, they came out of the way gate before
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: he opened up. That letter.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of imagined that him seeing that drop
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: of quote unquote blood in the wax is like the
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: streets of Camlin are starting to run with blood. So
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: at this point we can now bend the rules of
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: Taverin enough to get this darn letter into somebody's hands.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: And yeah, Talmani's bails out of there without thought for
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: Oliver or anything, because his first thought is the dragons, Right,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: Talmanes has now latched on to the mission that will
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: define him for the rest of the series, and that
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: is finding, protecting, using, and ultimately potentially scuttling the dragons.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: And you know, I have a lot of confusion about
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: this because, like, does the letter actually do anything other
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: than I guess it sends Toalmnus into the city, but
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: like I think with fire he would have probably gone
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: on in any way, Yeah.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: It probably sped them up by a whole half an
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: hour tops, So it doesn't really do anything. So I
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: guess it doesn't really matter that Oliver founded it. Maybe again,
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: that's why the letter could be opened. That's why like
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: Matt's prohibition on closing on keeping the letter sealed is
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: kind of over at a metaphysical level, because like it's
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: too late, right, Like, there's no reason for it not
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: to be opened.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: I just find the whole whole letter thing to be
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: kind of a waste of plot, Like it feels very pointless.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: It feels I don't like this aspect of one. It's
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: Varyn making a mistake.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: That sucks Varren screwed up.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: Which just feels kind of dumb, like if yeah, just oh,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: I don't understand how Matt works. And then yeah, the
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: fact that it doesn't really make a difference. It's not
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: like they're able to get there and wall it up
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: in time. Yeah. I find it to be a frustrating
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: plot point.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: It would have been nice if it led anywhere. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: it leads somewhere, but that somewhere is like and we're
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: too late.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: But I guess that just happens, right, Yeah, I mean
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: I guess you're trying to show that, like the light
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: isn't super well coordinated and we can still make mistakes
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: and I have the.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: Best plans of ice to die and mice.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: Right, but yeah, no, not my favorite, not my favorite
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: little little plot point from start to finish. It's just
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: it's hard to really feel like it's doing anything other
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: than like making our characters look a little more incompetent
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: than they are.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: Well, what I do like about it from a storytelling
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: perspective is that it was a chance to get a
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: leg up on the dark one, but instead it's putting
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: us a step back, and that does add a flavor
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: of anxiety and tention to the start of that plot
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: for the next book, which is very cool. Having what
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: should have been an advantage get thwarted and turned into
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: a liability does make for more interesting challenges for our
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: heroes to navigate. So there's that.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: I just would have liked to see Matt's luck do
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: something to cause him to open it soon enough that
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: he would get the warning.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but then Tom Hones couldn't be a badass who
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: fights a losing battle and wins anyway, best I got.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, No, I mean, I get why for a
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: plot like they want Gamblin to go down, But then
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: what's the point of the warning in the.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: First place, to just make you realize how many things
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: have to go right and also the fact that some
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: things can go wrong and you'll still win. Maybe it's
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: a way of inoculating us against the idea that everything
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: has to go right. And that if one little thing
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: goes wrong, it all falls apart. No, no, no, Sometimes stuff
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: goes wrong and we still prevail in the end.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: We still can do it. Okay, Okay, I'm scrambling. Yeah,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: but you know, I'll accept your scramble. It's a nice little,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: you know, brunch scramble, olet, little omelet.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: It was supposed to be Sunday side up, but then
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: it broke, so I just turned it into a scramble.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: So yeah. Oliver gathers his courage, gets the knife that
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: he stole from the quartermaster, which I think is silly.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: I think that's got to be an artifact of his
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: street urchin days, because I feel like, as the child
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: of the Red Band, he could have just asked for
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: a dagger from the quartermaster and been given one, isn't Matt.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: I thought there was the whole thing where Matt was
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: taking away his daggers. He keeps getting caught with them,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: and they keep getting taken away.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: What When's that?
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: I think I kind of assumed when Avienda took his
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: knives away that he wasn't supposed to have knives, and
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: that's why he was, you know, would beat then stealing.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: Them in this world, I'm pretty sure that ten year
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: olds are considered responsible enough to have a belt knife.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: Right, because like for most of history, belt knife was
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: just like a fork, like that's how you ate food.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and like even you know, up until very recently,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: kids having a pocket knife is like a pretty standard
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: part of growing up. Eventually, you know, your parents are
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: somewhere between the ages of like you know, six and twelve,
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: they're like, eah, here's a pocket knife. You should have
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: one of these.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: I carried a pocket knife through like high school, which, yeah,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: weird now, thing back on that, I'm like, heah, I
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: had a knife on me all through high school.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, lots of people are aged is very normal.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: My husband talks about going to school in a rural
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: area where it was very normal for the older boys
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: to have their hunting rifles in their cars that they
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: parked at school because they were gonna go hunting after school.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: They were gonna head up and go deer hunting. And
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: no one thought it was weird that they were bringing
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: guns on campus because like, yeah.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: Pre combine that, we didn't really think about that very much.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: Like the idea of shooting up at school was you know, crazy.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly the concept of that was just like, I mean,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: why would that be a thing. But yeah, same thing
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: with knives. It's just so normal to carry this basic tool.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: It's like a lighter and a water bottle. If you
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: think about like sometimes I like to imagine, like one
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: of our neolithic ancestors, you know, shows up, like what
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: about my reality do they recognize? And what do they
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: not recognize? Well, a water bottle, a lighter, and a knife.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: Those things all make sense. And every time I leave
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: my house, I have those three things somewhere in the
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: car on me, like they would recognize that some things
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: don't change.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: The lighter might be a little like magic to them,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: but I.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: Mean like flint and steel or not flint and steel,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: a flint and iron pyrite. But being able to make
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: fire right like a lighter is obviously magic technology, but
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: just like a way to carry water, a way to
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: make fire, and a way to manipulate the environment, to
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: be a whole lot of different ways. Because knives, hats
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: probably also pretty recognizable. But you know, fancy shoes, Nah,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: maybe not so much.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: Guess what I didn't wear when I went out to
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: the beach the other day. Shoes no that. Oh oh,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: so I am very bald right now. So the skin
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: on my head is peeling because I burned the shit
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: out of it, didn't wear sunscreen, didn't wear a hat,
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: just was out there. I'm like, it's early. Surely the
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: sun isn't that high in the sky.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: Yet, dude. No, it's after a bell time, which means
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: that between now and I mean basically from now until
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: summer solstice and then as many weeks. On the other side,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: it's the bright time of year. This is the brightest
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: time of year. The sun is reaching into its top
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: of its height. It is worth being all kinds of
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: scared of the sun right now, even though it's spring
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: quote unquote, we're after bell time. Solstice is only five
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: weeks away. Like, we are in the top twelve brightest,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: sharpest weeks of the year. So and yeah, yeah, the legion,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: we don't even have angry sun.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: Well, it's angry son Australia. Australia.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: Australia's sun is angrier than ours. For reasons.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: I love looking at the population density of Australia and
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: being like, oh, that's uninhabitable except for you know, the coast. Literally.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I love my temperate coastal rainforest that allows
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: me to dart from puddle of shade to puddle of shade.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I worry about global you know currents being disrupted
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: that will cause places like Pacific Northwest in England to
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: become very very cold.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: We are on a completely different system than the AMOC.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: The Atlantic mid Ocean current freezing Europe is going to
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: give us a different series of cascading events. It's not
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: going to be the.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: Same, true, true, true, true true.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: Very different oceans, very different currents. But yes, the collapse
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: of the AMOC and what's going to happen to England
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: and the rest of northern Europe won't not have an
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: effect here, right, just be different.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: Well, and I can just see something, you know, I
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: mean like we don't know, So once sea currents start
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: getting disrupted, like yeah, bad things.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: It's going to be actually relatively chill here. I've seen
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: this if because we have the cold upwelling along our coast,
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: and the ocean takes about ten thousand years to overturn
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: if a single molecule of water like runs the whole
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: gamut takes about ten thousand years, So we will be
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: one of those places where the ancient cold water that
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: hasn't yet been affected by climate change continues to upwell
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: and meet with the modern atmosphere and absorb carbon dioxide
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: and heat, and it's we are going to have some
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: of the slowest changing ocean here, unless like the Pacific's
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: like gyres change, which again it's just that's it's the
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: Pacific Ocean. It's very big. Yeah, there's a reason why
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: most projected maps of climate change differences are like pretty
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: small magnitude in the Pacific Northwest. It's a lot to
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: do with the way that the wind pushes off the
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: surface water and then cold water comes up, and that
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: water hasn't been in contact with the atmosphere since before
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: we figured out agriculture.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: So that kind of reminds me of how it takes
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: like between ten thousand and one hundred and seventy thousand
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: years for light to escape the sun, yeah, right, which
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: it is moving at light speed, Yeah, but it's moving
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: through sun, the sun, which is so dense that light
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: keeps getting absorbed and re emitted. So it essentially is
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: on a random walk in a random direction, and the
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: Sun's huge, and so to escape that, it takes it,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: you know, the photon emitted in the center of the sun,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: takes up to you know, one hundred and seventy thousand years.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: To escape and then a mere eight minutes to get
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: to us and cost skin cancer, right.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: And burn the shit out of the top of my head,
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: which is how we started on all of this. Yeah,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: shall we talk about Bariga?
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, However, I say that it's a one off character.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: But man, does he have a slap and introduction for
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: the red veiled ideal.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: And this is not necessarily his introduction though. What really
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: he was mentioned in the prologue as a merchant because
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: the prologue is that Tower That's Overrun.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: I was wondering about this connection, and I didn't do
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: my homework. I'm so glad you did our homework.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So in the prologue of this book, the Tower
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: That's Overrun, we have that whole scene where he you know,
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: his son stays and he's proud of him, and he
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: has the whole you know, Heath Tower, Heath Tower. Yes,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: he's presented with his adulthood and things. And in that
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: section he says, this merchant is coming to trade.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: This is the right because when the merchant says, I
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: was trying to get to heath Tower. I'm like, isn't
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: that the tower? It is? Okay, so we're jumping all
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: the way back to the prologue and say, remember that
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: wagon train. Yeah, that wagon trains having a time.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: Bad.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: So this this brings us full circle back to the prologue.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: Oh cool. I was like, vaguely sure, but I hadn't
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: bothered to conforms. So I'm glad to have that confirmed.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I looked up Briga and I was like, where
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: is he? And it's like mentioned in the prologue And
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: I was like, ah, nice, he's not in the prologue.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: So he only exists in this book. Yes, and he's
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: literally we only see him once, but he was mentioned
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: in the prologue.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, here's much.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: So, like the encyclopedia, Watt has both a chronology section
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: and a mentioned section. So chronology means they are in
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: the book in that chapter. Mentioned sections means they are
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: mentioned by another character in that chapter. And so he
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: has a mention in the prologue, but he appears in
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: the epilogue.
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, cool, cool, cool, and yeah he functions too. Yeah.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: First of all, remind us of the fact that the
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: borderlands are being overrun in general, and also to introduce
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: the Red Veiled Iel, the Red.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: Veiled Ideal, which I think is one of the coolest
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: ideas that I don't know if Sanderson came up with it,
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 3: but this idea that the Ideal have been sending the
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: men who can channel off to fight the Dark One,
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: and the Dark One's been saying, cool, you're on my side.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really curious what he was doing with them
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: for the centuries before the last battle. Was he using
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: them as breeding stock, as raiders, as agents elsewhere popping
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: through dimension tunnels? Were they just wandering around making some
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: sort of weird society and killing each other and not
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: having any direction? Like, what were they doing for the
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: centuries upon centuries that this was happening.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: My head canon is is this is a relatively new
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: thing in the last twenty years. Okay, you know, I mean,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: part of me assumes right that a Shamayel, But my
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: head canon is he about twenty years ago when the
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: Dragon Reborn was born. When Rand was born, a Shamayel
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: was able to escape. He started his twenty year cycle
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: of being able to escape the world of Dreams, and
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: so he's kind of been out in the world world
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: for about twenty years doing things. And by out in
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: the world, I mean possibly just in the world.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: Of dreams, right, first layer of contact with the real world.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: Right, Because my theory about Morden, right, why is he
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: You've got this cycle where he comes closer and closer
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: to the world, and he doesn't have the whole twenty
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: years in the physical world. He has twenty years of
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: influence and at both ends of that he can only
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: talk to people in the world of dreams.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: That would make sense.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: So this idea that like Morodin is able to because
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: we see him as an advisor, like because I always thought, oh,
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: maybe he's only in the world of dreams, but that
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: doesn't work because we see him as a physical advisor
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: to Arthur hawk.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: Wing, right.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: But in the beginning of the world it seems like
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: he is confined to the world of dreams. So possibly
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking, as that cycle comes back around, at least
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: in the beginning he has access to tele Arondriod before
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: he's access to the physical world.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so yeah, these men were sending themselves north
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: and dying like they expected to. And then he starts
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: showing up in the feverish dream nightmare states of these
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: men at a certain point and gives them this option
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: and turns them, et cetera, et cetera. But that's a
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: recent phenomena. Yeah, that makes more sense than this being perpetual.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: For as long as they you'll have existed. I just
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: kind of assumed they've always been there, and it's just like,
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: but how and they didn't.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: Is a very simple explanation, just right, And that explains
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: why you don't have like And also they don't live
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: very long, even the ones who are converted, right, they
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: die quickly. They're pretty much canon fodder. They fight among
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: each other. Yeah, and yes, Slayer talks about the isam right,
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: talks about being in the village as a young boy and.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: He sees them. He's familiar with them.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: From he's familiar with them.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that still that fits because he was a
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: small child when Malkir fell.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: Which was forty years ago. Good point, that's always there's
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: that Malkiere fell, because.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: It's just a few years older than Land. Yeah, because
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: he was like a small child, not a baby, but
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: still far too young of a child to be responsible.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: Because he's Land's cousin if I remember correctly, so of
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: the same.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: Generation, right, yeah, exactly exactly, And yeah he's like, you know,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: I'm assuming like five or something, right, brother get swarmed
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: and lost to the blight. So yeah, that is more
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: like forty years ago. Like say his memory is kicking,
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: you know, around age ten or whatever when he's talking
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: about that, Then yeah, that's thirty years ago. That's not
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: twenty years ago. That's a hoolass decade of difference.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: Right, So it's yeah, it's not a perfect theory, but
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: I just don't believe that this has been going on
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: the entire time. I have to assume this is a
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: more recent phenomenon. Otherwise there's got to be evidence of
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: like red veiled yel like never in the thousand years,
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: no single person, They've never been used for anything.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's odd how to make that timeline lineup, because.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: Right, and little gen saying time is different closer to
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: the blight, I think that's only in the last battle. Yeah,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: I don't think that's true.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: During is complicated when you're talking about time itself.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: But yeah, specifically after the seals are broken.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm thinking I kind of agree with samon
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: A sis. Maybe it's something that like started somewhere in
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: the past and has kind of like waxed and waned
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: over the centuries, Like when is Shameo's around, it's more
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: of a thing and I don't know, it's kind of
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: like where the trolks getting all of their food from
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: for all of the centuries. It's like it's a weird
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: hole like that can't just be self sustained. It's like,
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: you know in a video game when it was like
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: the bad guys just stand there perpetually having the same
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: conversation for like three days while you wait to get
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: around to that plot. Some parts of this logic don't
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: make sense. Some parts of this are looping in ways
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: that are irrational. But the concept of this asset right,
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: the men being an asset rather than a loss and
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: being turned against these noble ieel who are like the
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: most aligned with the good side and have the least
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: amount of dark friends, and to have them have provided
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: such a dangerous weapon to the dark one fantastic twist.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, this like you're throwing away an asset and
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: you're not really considering what's happening to it once you
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: throw it away, and someone's picking up your trash and
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: going ooh treasure and turning it against you.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: Right, And the sea folk don't have that problem, right
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: because most of their male channelers drop themselves off the
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: side of the boat holding a weight. Right. You can't
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: retrieve people in the same way, even the desert island method.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: It's still not like the Land of mad Men.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: If you were just like, oh, here, go to this
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: actual island you can live on for real, zies, then
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: the Dark One could get to them. I kind of
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: wonder if maybe he did get some of the like
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: a toll stranded ones of the sea folk. Hmmm, interesting,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: Like there should be a red veiled ideal equivalent of seafolk.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: Not the ones who drowned themselves. Maybe that's too fast,
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: but the ones left for a few days on a
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: small island. The Dark One could get to them.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: But at least these I mean, these guys are going
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: directly to the Dark One themselves.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: Oh no, they are going to They're going to try
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: to kill him. Oh yeah. And the c folk are
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: down at the equator. They're nowhere near anything approaching where
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: the Dark One can be. Okay, no, that's fair, that's fair.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: Geography doesn't matter with this the Iel are specifically seeking
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: the dark one so he can find them and confront
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: them directly.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: They are going into the blight to attack him, and
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: he goes, cool, cool, cool, cool your mine.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: Now right right?
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: And I assume you know there's this summer recruited. Some
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: are turned specifically if you look at the red veiled Ieel.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: Now I'm not sure. This is this where I get
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: little confused about the veiled iele because I know the
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: ones who have filed their teeth have been turned. Yes,
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: is it possible to have red veiled ieel who have
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: not been turned, who are not channelers? All red veiled
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: ieell can channel.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: To my understanding, that's what makes them red veiled ideel
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: is they are the channeling rejects from Adel society. And
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: that's a good question the religion. Who's the first person
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: to turn? If there's no one initially to turn them,
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: then how does the turning cycle get started started?
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, there's always been I mean you could have a
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: couple of black aja.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, and there are dark friend ideal, it
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: does happen. Plus you could probably also like torture some
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: of the more weak willed ones into voluntarily swearing over
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: and bootstrapping up from there.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Athlon, that's Athlon disagrees. He says a Vienna mention
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: some of the red veiled ieeal can channel, implying that
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: some can't.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: Well, why are they red veiled if they can't channel?
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: Because I think there's a breeding population of aeel up
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: in the in the blight of Evil.
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: But it's all men who were going up there.
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they could be inter breeding.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: Where are you getting females from? Is my point? Where
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: you're getting uteruses? If it's all men who's incubating these?
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: The town isn't all men?
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: Oh right, I forgot about the town and.
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: Raids, right, they're pulling. Some of them are food, some
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: of them are breeding stock.
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: So there's some ael who were born there of both
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: genders who want to be red veiled ideal or are
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: turned to be either way red veiled ideal who lack
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: the capacity to channel. That makes plausible sense. I probably
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: have a much higher population of channelers percentage of channelers
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: in the population than elsewhere because of the ideal men source.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: But that's valid.
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But one would also assume that the men channelers
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: do not last very long.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't have to. I mean you can still.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: Because they are still going insane. Well that's a question.
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: Are they still going insane or are they protected? Because
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: I mean that is that not why they're being recruited?
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I mean that's kind of the whole stick.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: Or do only forsaken get the protection? But like seriously,
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: like you can be a little bit mad and still
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: get a woman knocked up and then go wander off
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: and die and like you know.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: Or here's the other question, because the ones who are
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: converted are taken over by something that you know, destroys
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: their soul and essentially takes them over. Can that thing
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: channel without being corrupted because it's already corrupted? Right? What
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: are you gonna drive insane?
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Kind of like the zomara they like aren't really
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: people people. I could see that that the madness doesn't
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: affect a turned person because their soul is more like
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: a fragment of the dark one already than a human soul.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: So like, you can't corrupt yourself with yourself. That's not
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: a thing that's really dark.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: I like it. Oh, and reading Tarvallan dot net, some
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: semin asai are recruited instead of turned and undergone, so
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: some sort of training. It is those that do not
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: breed true will often wash out of their training and die.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: So they're being bred.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: Presumably for the ability to channel. Again, probably way higher
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: than a one to two percent channeling rate in this population.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: Where are you pulling that from Seminasi? Which I love
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: that you salmon Asai is giving us information about kind
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: of such a.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: Perfect me to chat all the time, and it's like, oh,
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: you're you're that's that's your name.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: So wat Fantom says the Seminosi are corrupted and subverted
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: group of ideal warriors ile men who discover they can
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: channel taint at side and go north into the blight
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: to fight the Shadow in hopes of dying in battle.
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: It appears that since the breaking many have been captured
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: over time and turned to the Shadow. Afterwards, the ile
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: Man have been able to channel with sideine with the
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 2: dark ones protection from the taint.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: This also explains how it can happen when a shaw
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: Mile is not around right the town and the red
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: veiled a yield society that exists are able to perpetuate
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: the cycle even without a Shmel directly around.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: I just have a hard time that it's been going
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: on since the Breaking, and we didn't see them in
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: the Trollic Wars. We didn't like three thousand years of
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: them being confined to the blight. Are you kidding me?
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: I bet? It's more like if you see them, you die.
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: They're like blood knives, but even bloodier and knife hear. Yeah.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: It is worth pointing out that the Ideal cannot have
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: been doing this since the Breaking per se, because the
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: Ideal don't exist until about like the fighty Iell don't
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: exist until maybe four or five hundred years after the Breaking.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, they still had men who could channel, but
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: they were picking a variety of ways of offering themselves.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: They weren't all going to fight the Dark One when
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: they were, you know.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: And they weren't even the waist yet close to the
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: bloody right like right, yeah, I yeah, I That quote
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: from what Fandom feels wrong to me.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: But I can totally believe that it's been going on
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: more than the last twenty years since Rand was born.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: It could it has to have been going on longer.
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: I could see it being something that goes back several centuries.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: But it is weird that they are not a piece
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: of Lord that exists, which means that they maybe they're
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: being used in Sharha entirely a place where it just
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: they just there's no contact because I mean geographically.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: But how do you get them there before you have
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: Shamayel coming out. You don't have gateways right until you
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: have the forsaken freed.
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: Way gates portal stones.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I agree with semin aside
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: that I think the Trollic Wars is probably the best
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: time for them to be established. They're in the blight,
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: the Dark One's forces are out and around, and it
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: was the.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: Last time that the Shamayel was out when he set
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of the seeds that he got to come
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: back to.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: It wasn't Trollic Wars before Ardur hawk Wing, Trollic Wars
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: then Arder hawk Wing.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: Honestly not sure that they're so cool they can't be applied.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, howckeing with second. So Trollock Wars is a thousand years,
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: it's breaking Trolock Wars arter hawk Wing last battle every
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 2: thousand years. Oh okay, So that means that they've been
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: around for two thousand years, which makes sense. The ideal
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: will have been around for a while at that point, right,
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: they would have been sending their men to the blight
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: to fight it for a couple hundred years, long enough
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: for that to be an established tradition, but not like that,
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: it's been going on for thousands and thousands of years.
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: But then again, yeah, two thousand years of having red
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: veiled ideal and no mention of it, no lore no,
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 2: not using them in any other situation. Having these people
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: who are extremely volatile, burnout extremely fast, are extremely powerful,
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: and just keeping them in the blight for thousands of years.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: I just don't see it. I just don't see it. Yeah,
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: what's the value?
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's holy like cheese.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I like the idea a lot, But I
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: would have liked the idea more if he made it
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: clear that this was something that Moridan started doing recently, yeah.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: Or if they were just people from the Land of
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: Madmen and it was it was a precursor to the
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: Shara thing of like, oh no, the land of admin matters.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: No, But I like the idea that, like, we've known
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: that these men are being sent into the blight for
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: a long time. I like using that little bit, but
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: I would have liked it better if Ashameael was like,
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: and this time, when I broke out, I took advantage
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: of those men and I started recruiting, right, Like that
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: would have been a nice line for him to drop. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I agree, not enough information to really make
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: a decision about, like when these things were started, just
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: guesses bumber. Yeah, because we know how long the men
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: have been going to the Blight, we don't know how
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: long they've been recruited to the Dark.
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: One, right, right, But with that, should we turn to Rand.
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: Someone who very well could have become one of the
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: Red Veiled Ideal had he been born among the Ideal,
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: he would have been sent off and would have been
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: Can you imagine that as one of the portal stones, Right,
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: he's born there, he learns he can channel, he goes
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: off to fight the Dark One, and the Dark One's
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: like sweet turning the Dark turning the Dragon reborn. They
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: sent him right to me.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: Presumably that is one of the visions in the portal Flicker.
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: Flicker, right, because all that takes is him being found
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 2: by a eel instead of being found by Tayim and
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: him being taken back Tam Tam.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. It easily could have happened, except that it
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: couldn't because Taverian. But like it could have, it could
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: have absolutely in the flicker flicker, that would have happened.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: Imagine he was found by Tayim, who was an older
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, he.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: Was old enough to find a baby on the battlefield
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: at that point.
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, raise him kind of the
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: way uh Matt raised Oliver.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the age difference would have been about right.
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, So Randal Thor enjoying his dream in
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: his own private head that no one could possibly get
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: into except we know he's sharing a head.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: With Mordan except for his quantum entangled body double.
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 2: Ever since the cross So I very much believe this
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: is a crossing of the stream situation.
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is just because of the crossing of the streams.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: Has nothing to do with the dark one, has nothing
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: to do with weird stuff that's being intentionally done. This
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: is simply the result of the bailfire streams crossing.
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 2: That's how I have to picture the mind link between
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: him and Mordon. And then I think, lay, if you're
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 2: having access to it, is a deliberate choice by Mordon.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, but I'm just saying, like the mechanics for this
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: are it's ever since yeah, yeah, ever time, ever since
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: that moment, this has been a possibility and an inevitability.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: So I mean, he's sort of just thinking in his
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: dream until you know, calmness, harmony. In the distance, he
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: heard screams of pain. The scream came again, distant. He
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: frowned and raised a hand. The scene around him vanished,
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: puffing away into mist. He stood in blackness. Right, So
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: this is kind of I imagine this is the place between dreams.
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: But without all the sparkly star things.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 2: Right, because he's in his own head.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: Right, This is more like the space between when you're skimming.
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: This is like the skimming void almost, but the dream
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: missh equivalent.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: Right, So imagine like this, the dream space is made
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: up of everybody's heads and then the little sparkly dreams
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: inside of him. If he's just in his own head,
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: his space is going to be empty, and if he's
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: not actively dreaming, there's going to be no sparkle.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. His WiFi is turned off, Yeah,
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: so he doesn't see all the other WiFi network, right.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: He's warded. Yeah, so he's not going to see the
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: other dreams and the other dreams supposedly can't see him there.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: He thought he was in a long corridor of dark
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: wood paneling. He walked down it boots thumping, a corridor
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: connecting two places like his head and Morgan's head.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The analogy metaphor dream docking that's happening here is
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: I think, very obvious.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: He began to run. He reached a doorway at the
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 2: end of the hall. He reached a mind at the
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: end of the connection. The doors russet wood was knobbed
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 2: and rigid, like the thick roots of an ancient tree
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: who has an ancient mind, who's been a lot around
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: for a long time. Moriden ran seized the handle, just
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 2: another route, and wrenched the door open. He enters Moroden's mind.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: The vast room beyond was pure black, lightless, like a
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 2: caravan deep beneath the ground.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: Cavern.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, oh, caravan is not pronounced cavern. Oh well, I
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 2: just learned something today.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: Audiobooks and physical books and dyslexia are fun.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: That word is pronounced cavern, and that's a different thing
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: than a caravan. A cavern is a cavern. Yeah, a caravan,
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 2: I thought was something different than a cavern.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: A caravan is a thing. A caravan is a caravan,
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: and a cane is a cavern.
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: Right, And I thought a hole in the ground that's
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: pronounced caravan was yeah, pronounced the same as the caravan
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: that yep, yeah yeah.
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: As a geologist, yeah yeah, yeah, no, it makes sense.
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: I got It's just my brain went, oh, those are
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: different words. Anyway. The room seemed to suck in light
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: and extinguish it, right, because he is linked to the
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: dark one. He is linked to the true power. That's
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 2: that which is often described as sucking in the light
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: around it.
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: I mean the sparks and the darkness that men sees
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: around the boys right right.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 2: The screaming voice was inside. It was weak, as as
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: if it was being smothered by the darkness. I think
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 2: this is just land fear in you know, Mordon's head.
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then the room was round, as if he
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: stood inside the bowl of an enormous skull.
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: Right right. And the walls felt like bone, like just
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 2: we're in his head.
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: We are physically literally in his head.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the walls are made of bone, they're in his skull.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah, you were in his head, you were in
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: his dream.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: How had this woman gotten into his dream. Right, Well,
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: you know you've worded your mind, but you have this
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: back door, which is the fact that the pattern has
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: linked your soul with Morton's. And I believe this is
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: all manipulation. This is all deliberate on the dark Ones
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 2: part Mordon Landfeir. I believe they plan this out together, right.
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: This isn't like that scene when Morden is like, what
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: are you doing here? What do you want? And Rand's like, like,
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: I think that in that instance it was genuinely an
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: accidental contact. I completely agree that this was a docking
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: procedure initiated by Mordon and orchestrated. And Landfeir is the
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: bait in the trap.
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 2: And I think last time it helped Morgan realize the connection,
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: and now he's using it, right, It.
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: Gave him an idea. It's like, oh, I could use.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: This and he can't reach out to Rand's mind, but
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: he can. You know, he can't go into Rand's mind,
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: I should say, but he can create a lure to
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: bring Rand into his.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're closely connected enough that he can knock on
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: Rand's door and provide a hallway at the foyer of
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: Rand's mind palace and.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: So he encounters Sinding. Right, this is not like Fear.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: The face was different, but he knew the soul.
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, this is a woman with silvery hair,
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: right land Fear has dark hair, sin Dayne has silver hair. Yes,
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: this is say this is.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: The Yeah, you're dead, I saw you die. He No,
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: she didn't die then, although she did die right like
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: this is she could.
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: Die then, though she died later. She didn't die as
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: a result of going through the door. She died as
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: a result of whatever it was that Morden bargained for
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: after he went through a door, or Mordan just killed her, right,
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: But either way, like the going through the door didn't
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: kill her. He didn't see her die. What killed her
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: was completely separate from that.
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 2: And I think in this moment he should realize, Hey,
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: if she didn't die, maybe Moraine didn't either. I think
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 2: I think he has that thought later.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and yet she says, well, she says a lot
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: of things, but one of the things she says is
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: he comes the shadow in every man's mind, the murderer
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: of truth. And there's so much about this that makes
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: me think this is Jordan pros and that is just
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: the most crown Jewel. Yeah, the whole thing that feels
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: like nineteen ninety one Jordan at the latest. That feels
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: like something that he wrote as like an alternate version
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: to the scene with his mother at the end of
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: Eye of the World. It feels so old school Jordan.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: A lot of this feels old school Jordan before we
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: get to the to the Mirran part. Even there's him
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: looking down on a nameless valley below in the Mountains
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: of Myths where he had his painful journey whatever. It
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: just the way that he talks feels like I at
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: the World, It just it all feels so early nineties.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: It feels like a very well written dream sequence, right,
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: Like I feel like where there's just enough mystery and
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: just enough left unsaid, but just enough little like weird
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 2: metaphysics that throw you off. Like it's really well done
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 2: in Jordan's style in a way that yeah, yeah, whether
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: it's Jordan or Sanderson doing a really good job imitating it.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But it feels like he wrote a lot of
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: scene that were both at the beginning and the end,
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: right because we know that he initially wrote the end
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: of the books and then went back to the beginning
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: and called the prologue epilogue originally, and it just it
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: feels to me like he actually wrote some more than
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: one scene from the end as he was getting it
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: fired up, so that way he kind of knew what
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: he was writing to, knew where the loop was going
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: to close. And this, to me does not feel like
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: Sanderson doing his best Jordan impression. I feel like we've
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: seen that elsewhere, and this feels like the authentic vintage stuff. Yeah.
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 2: You combine with that with just all the times that
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 2: like Mirn has been in dreams trying to seduce him.
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 2: Remember the whole Lake scene where she's like, oh, you got.
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: Me right like, and like the way she describes her
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: experience right, like the he grinds my bones and snaps
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: them like twigs like that is so not the way
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 1: that even Jordan was writing about how the Forsaken talked
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: about the Dark One in later books. It's so poetic,
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: it's it's not direct, it's not I don't know. There's
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: just something about it that's really abstract in a way
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: that reminds me of all of his early dream sequences.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I completely agree with you. Yeah, it feels and
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: I always I hesitate to be like This is definitely
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 2: written by Jordan, but it feels to me like it
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 2: was written by Jordan.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: This is one of the ones where I'm the most confident, right,
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: Like I've been building my confidence over the course of
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 1: these last two books, and this one it just feels
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: so jarringly like Ia the world. It's just be weird
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: if I didn't call it out. But yeah, this is
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: also like you said, she does like to get to
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: him in dreams, and I totally believe that. When I
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: first read this, I thought that she was actually authentically
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: here and authentically reaching out to him. And yeah, now, no,
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: she is play acting as much as she ever was.
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: This is one hundred percent her and mort and cooking
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: up a plan together and her running her lines that
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: they agreed on while he watches from behind one way
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: glass or whatever.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: You know what they call a cavern caravan, No, the subway.
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 1: It is true, that is a caravan in a cavern.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: That is precisely what that is for sure.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 3: And shall we end the chapter with the last charge
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 3: of Malchiere.
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the last POV of the book is Land
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: doing aerragorn charging the gates.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: Of more door. One does not simply charge the gates
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: of more door.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, tiny little force going up against a force,
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: you know, an order of magnitude or three bigger than them.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: It's epic. He's grimy, his hair is blowing in the wind.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: Everyone screaming and charging. It's just fantastic. And you leave
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: the books being like that, we're gonna need a We're
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: gonna need an on your left right in order for
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: this to work out. But you don't get that till
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: next book.
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 2: It's setting up the endgame moment, right the portal's opening
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 2: up and all the guys you know and ran stepping
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: out right that you know, the whole The Wheel of
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 2: Time did it first.
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm pretty sure someone else did it before
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: Wheel of Time, but totally totally.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: But that idea of like you're charging and then suddenly
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: like you have allies next to you that you didn't expect.
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: Opening up out of magic portals. Yeah, I mean definitely
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: Sanderson in Wheel of Time did it before End Game.
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: The movie did it. It's so good. I love how
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: this book leaves us on this hopeful but bleak moment
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: and you know, spoilers, we know that it's going to
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: turn into the most triumphant cavalry rally, ever, and that's
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: very cool to leave the book on with that, and
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: also back throw back to book one, Tarwin's Gap. We're
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: at Tarwin's Gap, that place where Rand first touched the
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: clean male power, where he faced his mother asking to
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: be released from the Dark One. Like all of that
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: circling back around, it's.
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 2: We're back, and essentially destroyed the Dark Ones ability to
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 2: make battle for multiple years. Right Like, if he hadn't
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: destroyed the force at Tarwin's Gap and ei of the world,
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: I assume basically the world will have been at war
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: this whole time and they would have no chance in
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: the last battle.
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he bought them those two precious years for all
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: that plot development and army organizing.
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: I feel like I can read the whole thing.
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: It's nothing but epic. If you're going to read any
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: of it, you have to read all of it.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 2: I'm reading. I'm reading the whole thing.
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: I'm here for it. I'm sure to like get you know,
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 1: wet your whistle, get your breath, diaphragm supported and all that.
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: A cruel, dry wind blew across Land's face as he
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 2: looked down at a corrupt landscape. Tarwin's Gap was a
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: wide pass, rocky speckled with blighted knife grass. This had
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: once been part of Malchierre. He was home again for
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: the last time. Masses of trollocks clustered on the other
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: side of the gap, thousands, tens of thousands, probably hundreds
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 2: of thousands, easily ten times the number of men Land
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: had gathered during his march across the border lands. Normally,
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: men held their side of the gap, but Land could
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: not do that. He had come to attack, to ride
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 2: for Malchierre. Andre rode up beside him on his left,
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: on your left, young Kaisel of Candor. On his right.
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: He could feel something distant that had given him strength. Recently,
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 2: the bond had changed, the emotions had changed. He could
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 2: still feel nine Eve, so wonderful, caring and passionate in
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: the back of his mind. He should have been pained
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: to know that now she would suffer when he died
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: instead of another. However, that closeness to her, a final closeness,
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: brought him strength. The hot wind seemed too dry, smelled
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: of dust and dirt, and drew the moisture from his eyes,
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: forcing him to blink. It is fitting, Kaisel said, what,
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: Land asked that we should strike here. Yes, Land said,
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: it is bold. Kisel said, it shows the shadow that
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: we will not be beaten down, that we will not cower.
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 2: This is your land, Lord, Mandragrin, my land. He thought,
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: yes it was. He nudged Mandarb forward. I am Landmandragrion,
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: Land bellowed, Lord of the Seven Towers, defender of the
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 2: Wall of First Fires, bearer of the Sword of the
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: Thousand Lakes. I was once named an a line, but
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 2: I reject that title, for I am alone. No longer
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 2: fear me, shadow fear me, and no I have returned
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 2: for what is mine. I may be a king without
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 2: a land, but I am still a king, he roared,
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: raising his sword. A cheer rose from behind him, he said,
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: and a powerful final sensation of love to ninive. As
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 2: he kicked Mandarb into a gallop, his army charged behind him.
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 2: Each man mounted a charge of Candori, Erifelin, Shinarans, and Saldaeans,
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 2: but most of all Malchieri. Land wouldn't be surprised if
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 2: he'd drawn every living man from his former kingdom who
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 2: could still hold a weapon. They rode cheering, brandishing swords
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 2: and leveling lances. Their hoofs were thunder, their voices a
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 2: crash of waves, their pride stronger than the blazing sun.
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 2: They were twelve thousand strong, and they charged a force
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 2: of at least a one hundred and fifty thousand. The
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 2: day will be remembered in honor. Land thought, galloping forward
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 2: the last charge of the golden crane, the fall of
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 2: the Malchieri. The end had come, they would meet it
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 2: with swords raised. Lo it shall come upon the world
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 2: that the prison of the Great One shall grow weak,
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again,
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: his glorious cloak shall smother the pattern of all things,
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: and the Great Lord shall stretch forth his hand to
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 2: claim what is his. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren,
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 2: their children cause to weep. There shall be none but
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: him and those who have turned their eyes to his majesty.
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 2: In that day when the one eyed fool travels the
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 2: hall of Mourning, and the first among vermin lifts his
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: hands to bring freedom to him, who will destroy the
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 2: last days of the fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come Yea,
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: and the broken wolf, the one whom death has known,
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 2: shall fall and be consumed by the midnight towers, and
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 2: his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 2: of men, and shall shake their very will itself. And
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 2: then shall the Lord of the Evening come, and he
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 2: shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before him,
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: and he shall take our skin, for our flesh shall
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 2: serve him, and he shall take our lips. For only
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: shall face the broken champion, and shall spill his blood
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 2: and bring us the darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, Oh,
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: followers of the Shadow, beg for your destruction. From the
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 2: prophecies of the Shadow.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: The end of the thirteenth season of Wheel of Time spoilers.
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 2: We still have tangents.
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: We still have tangents. There is an epilogue to the
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: way we do this, but there it is.
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: There, it is. Do you want to talk about that
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: at all?
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, let's talk about it. Let's talk about it.
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know, there's a lot to talk about with
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: Land other than just I mean, he Aerragor is hard.
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: It's twelve thousand versus one hundred and fifty thousand. It's
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: every last Malcarri. It's epico epic.
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 2: It's great, it's fantastic. The speech is fantastic. I reject
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 2: that I am a man alone, for I am no
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: longer alone. Great line.
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: That is so much closure. So he's like, I, I
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: am so fully committed to this that I'm letting go
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: of my stoic, solitary warrior identity and I am joining
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 1: with you.
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like parent, like I accept being in
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 1: the structure.
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 2: And guess what the next chapter we're going to read
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: is in New Spring.
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: Land being praised as on a line by the Ayeel.
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're gonna full circle pactic.
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: We're going to full circle that bitch. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 2: that's good. That's why it's a good reason to do
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 2: it now. But yeah, he's he's remember that moment when
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: he was, you know, praised by the Ayel of an
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 2: a line and they didn't attack him because he is important.
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 2: It's because their prophecies and their wise women. One assumes
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: that the wise women had a prophecy about Land and
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 2: his role in the last battle.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, sure seems like it. Sure seems like it. Yeah,
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: it's yeah, the full circle of it all. It's great,
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 1: it's good. It's really good. Sanderson is very good at
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: bringing all the loose ends together into a satisfying closure.
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: He really is. And yeah, we've talked about these prophecies
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: quite a bit, particularly the middle one, right, we talked
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: about that a lot, just a bit ago.
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think maybe worth going over again since it's
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 2: actually in this chapter, But.
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 1: We can start at the top and go through all
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: three paragraphs of it. I mean, the first paragraph is
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 1: mostly just like and then it's gonna get weird, right.
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: The prison of the Dark One should go, shall grow weak.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: We've seen that with the seals weakening, like the limbs
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 2: of those who crafted it, right, Like people die, there's
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 2: all things end in time.
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 1: Right, and also like the taint has been eroding at
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 1: the ability for humanity to channel effectively while acts of
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: humanity are you know, chipping away at the seals.
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 2: The rebellious Nations, I assume that's referring to just like
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 2: all the nations who rebel against the Dark One, right,
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: the ten Nations.
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, any nation that's not wornto the Dark One is
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 1: the rebellioned nation. Yeah, just the hope of there being
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: none but him and those who have turned their eyes
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 1: to his majesty, Like that's just what they want.
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, everyone's kind of looking at the storm in
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: the sky, right, maybe that's what they're talking about.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I guess kind of sure. Everyone is
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: maybe not looking at his majesty in the respectful way,
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: it's more in the horrified way. And then the middle
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 1: paragraph is very much about Paren but also Matt. Right,
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 1: the one eyed fool traveling the Halls of Morning is
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: about Matt. The first among vermin is Rand, and then
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: the fallen I don't think so is Paren? Oh you
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: don't think so?
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 2: The first one the first among vermin is Logain.
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: Oh, of course, of course that makes total sense because
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 1: the first I was like, I almost think it should
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 1: be a GWayne, but it's clearly a male pronoun. But
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 1: Awayne's counterpart, the leader of male channelers, who is not
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 1: a forsaken.
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 2: And he destroys the seals, so he brings freedom to
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 2: he he will destroy. He frees the dark one from
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 2: his person. You're right, by destroying the seals.
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, all right, definitely.
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 2: He lifts his hand, he smashes the seals.
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: Like that is a first among vermin is Logane? Gotcha?
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So that's a prophecy for Logan destroying seals. In
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 2: my opinion, I think that's one hundred percent what that is.
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: No, that's way more logical than rand given that he
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 1: does pass the breaking of the seals off and that
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: does end up being Logan's job ultimately. Okay, all right,
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: I like that. But the fallen Blacksmith.
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 2: Is definitely parent, Yeah, totally.
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 1: And then we've got the broken Wolf whom Death has
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: Known falling from the Midnight Towers. We've talked about how
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 1: maybe that is Hopper and the way that he died
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 1: in the dream and the mega death and all of
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: that mega death.
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 2: And I always want to make it gnome because he
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 2: also died in the tower, right, and he Death has
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 2: Known and he's no. No Do I say no?
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 1: Because yeah, because Noman nol are literally one letter in
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 1: the alphabetic art.
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're both broken wolves. Yeah.
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: Uh, Like, honestly, it could be nol no.
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 2: Because he's because he's kind of referred to as an
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 2: old wolf, right, and he's like he falls in the
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 2: tower and is consumed by it and his destruction, you know,
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: the fear and sorrow to the hearts of men. I
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 2: mean again, that's to me, goes better with Hopper than
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 2: with nol.
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I feel like the world has already moved
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 1: on from Jane Forrestrader being a person. He's just an
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 1: author of or a character in a book now. But yeah,
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: it works either way, though I'm kind of fine with
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 1: squirreling it either way. Hopper deserves it more though, And
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 1: then the last paragraph is just a very Roman curse
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: benediction kind of thing to the dark one. I love
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: the HBO show that came just before Game of Thrones
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: that's called Rome. Literally scrapped Rome to make Game of Thrones.
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 1: I will never not be mad about it.
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 2: Rome was good. Rome was very good. Fu Okay, God.
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 1: But there's a whole sequence where they do a curse
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: right where the one woman makes a couple of curses
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: for some other people and she writes them into lead sheets.
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 1: And I watched a video somewhere on YouTube, read an
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 1: essays somewhere that was talking about how we found these things.
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 1: Those curse sheets are a very real thing. That thing
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 1: in the show is a real thing that Romans did.
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: We found those at the bottom of wells and wedged
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 1: into building foundations and stuff like that. It's a real thing,
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 1: thoughts and prayers, I know, right, and the way that
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: that is delivered in the show room, which also that
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: was what's her face? Who was cast in Wheel of Time?
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 2: Oh? Really, Paully Walker, Kelly Cordon, Lindsay Duncan.
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: Lindsay Duncan. It's Lindsay Duncan. Literally, it is Lindsay Duncan
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: who was cast in Wheel of Time. It's her character
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 1: in Rome, and she puts a curse on Caesar and
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: it has kind of this cadence where she's offering to
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: the god of Hell or to the gods of diys technically,
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 1: and I give you his breath, and I give you
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: his lips, and I give you his heart. And that's
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 1: like the way she says. And the cadence of this
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: reminds me of that. It gives me that like ancient curse,
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 1: except in this case it's a you know, dark evil person,
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 1: you know, doing more of a benediction for selling themselves
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 1: to the dark one. But it still gives me that
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 1: creepy ancient energy and I love it.
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 2: And she's portrayed as Moraine's sister.
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, whatever. Her in real character's name is in
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 1: real of Time, but and Aver is the name of
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: anver on Vera Dimondred in real of Time, and yet
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 1: in Rome, she plays Brutus's mother, who is also Caesar's
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 1: scorned mistress, and she is portrayed as kind of orchestrating
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 1: Caesar's assassination because she feels spurned. That's how Rome went
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 1: with it. I don't know that that's historically accurate, but
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 1: she did a very good scorned lover. And I don't
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: care about the historicity of.
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 2: That Villa of the Juni.
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: It's Civilia of the Julii, thank you. And she's in
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 1: this whole like Nemesis thing with Polly Walker, who, like
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: I thought I would watch Polly Walker in anything, and
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 1: then I tried to watch Bridgerton and there was not
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: enough Polly Walker for me to be willing to watch Bridgerton.
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 2: Got it.
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: They really wanted to watch it just for Polly Walker, though,
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 1: because God, I'd watch her in anything except apparently Bridgerton,
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 1: because she's not a central character.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 2: Polly Walker is one of those names that almost sounds
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 2: like you're describing the way somebody walks, like a.
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: Poly math or something. You know. She has a degree
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 1: from the Ministry of silly walks.
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that would make sense. Yeah, she's quite good
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: at many of them.
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 2: You can get your degree as a mono walker, but
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 2: that's really pretty boring. If you can, you can duel
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 2: major in silly walks and polly walking.
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but yeah. As for the last bit of
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: this prophecy, I think it's amazing that Sanderson, in speaking
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: to us as the audience, is like, let the screams begin,
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 1: Followers in the shadow, beg for your destruction. He's like,
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna destroy you. I am gonna kill characters. I'm
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 1: gonna twist your heart out. I am gonna make this
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 1: so miserable. Beg me for it, beg before it, you serfs.
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: I feel like he was kind of speaking to us
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 1: with that very last line, beg for your destruction, because
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 1: the last book does destroy you, right, I mean Bella's death.
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 1: I was crying when Bella died. It couldn't do anything
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: while Oliver was on the brink of death and is
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 1: he gonna sound the horn and what's gonna happen? And
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 1: like I couldn't do anything while I was listening to that, Like,
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: I like Sanderson telling us no, seriously, girger Loins. This
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 1: last book's going to be rough, and it was, and
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 1: it was, and it will be when we come back
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 1: in some as of yet slightly fuzzy number of weeks
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 1: because we are not doing the next book right away, right,
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 1: we are waiting for a hot minute, but it's going
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 1: to be rough when we do eventually get to it, right.
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 2: So just so you have an idea if we want
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 2: to include this, we are doing New Spring next. We
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 2: plan on doing five episodes for the whole book, so
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 2: you know, split that up about five to six chapters
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 2: per episode, right, because it's twenty five chapters, twenty six
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 2: chapters plus an epilog, so it's five chapters per episode
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 2: except for the first and the last episode, which we're
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 2: doing six, and then we're including the flock. So they're
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 2: definitely shorter chapters. We're planning on getting through them in
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: if they are. The reason I think this is doable
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 2: is because they are. The chapters in New Spring are
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 2: significantly shorter than chapters in the rest of the Wheel
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 2: of Time, and less happens in each single one, right,
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 2: And we're probably not going to dig into all of
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 2: the isid I names, right, like we're going to be like, yes,
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 2: these are all mentioned isid I, but they might be
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 2: longer episodes. They might be you know, we might go
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 2: back to two plus hour episodes to get through all
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 2: that information. Then we are going to take about a
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 2: month break, a summer break because of travel and just
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 2: maybe you know, giving us a chance to refresh our
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: brains before we start Memory of Light. And we expect
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 2: to start the prologue of Memory of Light in August.
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the current plan is for a lot
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 1: of reasons, a lot of logistical reasons, August not in
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 1: the wheel of time ironic sense, like literal August.
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 2: And then as we lay it out, our goal is
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 2: to then finish up a Memory of Light in by April.
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the plan.
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 2: So August, September, October, November, December, January, Fairy March, April.
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 2: That gives us nine months, which on average is about
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 2: how long it's been taking us to get through a
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 2: given wheel of time book is about nine months if
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 2: you go back and look at our history, so you know,
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 2: we're not necessarily trying to hit the ten month anniversary.
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 2: It's just looking like it's almost inevitable. And if we
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 2: don't hit it. It's going to be like I'll regret it.
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, obviously not sacrifice the quality of the
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 1: podcast to make that deadline, but we are going to
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 1: attempt to make that deadline.
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 2: Right right, try and do the whole series within ten
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 2: years of starting it, which I mean, go back and
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 2: look at it. I bet at some point I'd be like, yeah,
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 2: it's probably gonna take like ten years or something like that.
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 2: I would love if I had that quote in an
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 2: early episode because people would be like, you know what
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 2: you're committing to, and I just want to say yes
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 2: at this point, yes, I have a full understanding of
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 2: the commitment to the whole doing podcasting the whole series
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 2: of the Wheel of Time. But in a lot of ways,
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 2: we have the first book in the last book left.
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And for now our mission is to record Tangents.
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 1: So I think we stop this recording and definitely move
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 1: on towards that because we have to do our Tangents episode.
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 2: We have to.
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, every book gets tangents.
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 2: To get I have to get some of this stuff
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 2: out in the way, right exactly, all.
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, turning recording off now, thank you for listening
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 1: to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. Please rate and
• 2:02:41
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• 2:02:44
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• 2:02:49
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• 2:02:56
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