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One on One: Stephen Mailer · I Am All In with Scott Patterson

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  Speaker 1: I am all in.
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  Speaker 2: I am all in with Scott Patterson, an iHeartRadio podcast.
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  Speaker 1: Hey everybody, Scott Patterson, I am all in Podcasts. We
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  Speaker 1: have a very very very special guest. Norman Mailer's son Steven,
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  Speaker 1: played the interviewer A Norman Baylor for one episode in
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  Speaker 1: two thousand and four, and that was Norman Mailer I'm Pregnant,
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  Speaker 1: Season five, episode six. Even is a stage actor and
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  Speaker 1: a screen actor. His credits include appearances in films like
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  Speaker 1: Cry Baby, Baby, Mama and Another Woman, in the television
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  Speaker 1: shows Gilmore Girls, Law and Order, Special Victims Unit, and
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  Speaker 1: A League of their Own. And he is the son
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  Speaker 1: to a very extraordinary uh and iconic literary figure in
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  Speaker 1: the history of American letters, the one and only Norman Mailer.
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  Speaker 1: And here is his son, Stephen Mayler. Hello, Stephen, thank
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  Speaker 1: you for joining us. Do you remember, Stephen, how it
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  Speaker 1: came to be that your father agreed to be on
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  Speaker 1: this show?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, very well. A dear friend of mine, Jessica Queller,
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  Speaker 3: was a writer on the show, and they just wrote
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  Speaker 3: an episode. I believe that where you know, the character
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  Speaker 3: of Norman Mailer was in the in the restaurant owned
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  Speaker 3: by Lauren Graham and that most McCarthy was the was
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  Speaker 3: the chef, I believe. And and so she called me
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  Speaker 3: and said, hey, your dad is a character in an episode.
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  Speaker 3: Do you you know, would he be interested in doing it?
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  Speaker 3: So I asked him, and he said, well, I'll do
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  Speaker 3: it if if, if they put you in it too.
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  Speaker 3: And so that's how it all began. I'm an actor, and.
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  Speaker 1: So it didn't take that much convention, not at all.
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  Speaker 3: It was great. He was he was all in.
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  Speaker 1: Because I you know, he's known to have hated television.
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  Speaker 1: Is that true?
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  Speaker 3: You know, I guess he. I guess he was opposed
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  Speaker 3: to what television could kind of do to the mind,
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  Speaker 3: can kind of dull the mind, and you know, like
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  Speaker 3: any I mean, television is very addictive. I think it
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  Speaker 3: was more of the the not necessarily the content, but
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  Speaker 3: the action of just losing oneself television. And I don't
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  Speaker 3: know what you would think now in the age of streaming.
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  Speaker 3: Oh yes, but he watched, you know, he like near
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  Speaker 3: the end of his life, he loved to watch a
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  Speaker 3: live poker and he watched love watching football. Baseball not
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  Speaker 3: so much. After the Dodgers left Brooklyn, he denounced baseball. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: but I think that's bad. Little basketball and you know,
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  Speaker 3: political debates things like that.
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  Speaker 1: Right, right, So what do you remember about being on set?
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  Speaker 3: I I had the best time. I you know, it
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  Speaker 3: was wonderful to be there with Jess and I'm glad
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  Speaker 3: that it worked out, you know, for her as well.
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  Speaker 3: And and it was lovely. It was you know, it
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  Speaker 3: was a wonderful week that I was with my dad
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  Speaker 3: and and everyone was was terrific. We had I remember
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  Speaker 3: having dinner with the producers I think Amy and Dan. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: and so that was really fun and and the cast
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  Speaker 3: and crew was fantastic. And I remember Meliss McCarthy going
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  Speaker 3: up to me and saying, see, are you an actor?
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  Speaker 3: I was like yeah. He was like, oh god, because
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  Speaker 3: you're making it look too easy. Anybody can do this right,
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  Speaker 3: right right?
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  Speaker 1: Well, so so what what what do you remember about
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  Speaker 1: your interactions with the two of those monolists of acting,
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  Speaker 1: Melissa and Lauren.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, they were delightful. They were just really charming and
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  Speaker 3: sweet and supportive and very respectful of my father. And
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  Speaker 3: I remember the director of the episode. You know, I
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  Speaker 3: loved my dad's work, and so it was it, Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: it was it was just a lovely experience all around.
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  Speaker 1: You know, you're so inside baseball because you're his son,
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  Speaker 1: you know, you know, and my my father was one
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  Speaker 1: of those guys who, after World War Two on the
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  Speaker 1: gi bill, uh you know, graduating from one of the ivys,
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  Speaker 1: wanted to write the great American novel. And he was
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  Speaker 1: inspired by The Naked and the Dead and those legions
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  Speaker 1: of men and women that attempted to do this. And
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  Speaker 1: how large a figure, how large and how iconic a
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  Speaker 1: figure your dad was, even at that time when I
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  Speaker 1: was a very small child, because I know the name
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  Speaker 1: it in The Dead hit like you know, it hit
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  Speaker 1: like a bomb. It was just it was just this
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  Speaker 1: amazing experience. Was wasn't it the first uh uh, real
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  Speaker 1: war novel, modern war novel that had that kind of
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  Speaker 1: an impact.
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  Speaker 3: I believe, So, I know, the Naked and It Didn't particularly
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  Speaker 3: just really touched that whole generation. That's the other it's
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  Speaker 3: kind of similar to The Naked and the Dead. I
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  Speaker 3: think Terrence Malick made a film of it.
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  Speaker 1: So that was the thin Red Line made.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And there are elements of it in Platoon as well.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I think Oliver State is very, very influenced
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  Speaker 1: by the Naked and the Dead.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember my dad talked about like.
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  Speaker 1: But I mean, just such such a thrill to know
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  Speaker 1: that Norman Mahler was coming to our show to be
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  Speaker 1: in a scene was just it was it was hard
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  Speaker 1: to wrap your mind around it, but it happened, and
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  Speaker 1: there he was in the diner and it was just
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  Speaker 1: it was an amazing day.
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  Speaker 3: That was the last scene of the episode, right where
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  Speaker 3: were like, the guys are in here, they're not ordering anything.
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  Speaker 1: Right exactly exactly. Lunch was canceled, So I'm canceling you
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  Speaker 1: was that was a great monologue from from USA, taking
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  Speaker 1: your lemons away. Oh look, I'm gonna read your book
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  Speaker 1: for free. I'm not even gonna pay for it. Just
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  Speaker 1: like so Norman, he had a lot of lines to remember.
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  Speaker 1: Did he did he rehearse with you? Did he have
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  Speaker 1: him down pretty pound or?
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  Speaker 3: I think I think for the most part, he and
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  Speaker 3: I were just kind of improvising. I played a somebody
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  Speaker 3: who was interviewing him for a magazine piece or newspaper piece,
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  Speaker 3: and we you know, I asked a lot of political questions,
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  Speaker 3: so that part was improvised. He did have some lines,
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  Speaker 3: my dad, you know, it was a bit of a
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  Speaker 3: ham as an actor. You know, he made those three
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  Speaker 3: experimental films at the end of the sixties, and I
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  Speaker 3: love them because they're all these old buddies and they
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  Speaker 3: were like my aunts and uncles, and they're like home
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  Speaker 3: movies to me. But they're they're kind of ridiculous. And
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  Speaker 3: and so, you know, I think I think it was
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  Speaker 3: the improv was came out, you know, far more organically
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  Speaker 3: than a lot of those lines. And and but as
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  Speaker 3: far as I'm remembering, I you know, I don't, I
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  Speaker 3: don't think it was a lot to memory. I think
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  Speaker 3: it was, you know, a couple of a couple of
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  Speaker 3: words here, a couple of words there. But I knew
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  Speaker 3: he was he really wanted to do a great job
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  Speaker 3: and he was trying, you know, giving it is all.
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  Speaker 1: And how how old were you? How old were you
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  Speaker 1: back then?
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  Speaker 3: I was thirty was in two thousand and four, I
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  Speaker 3: was thirty eight.
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  Speaker 1: You were thirty eight years old? Okay? And he passed
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  Speaker 1: just in two thousand and seven.
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  Speaker 3: Right seven, Yeah, he was eighty one.
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  Speaker 1: And so are fans recognizing you for this role? Gilmore?
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  Speaker 1: Fans that they come up to you.
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  Speaker 3: My niece was a huge Gilmore Girls fan. She was,
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  Speaker 3: you know, in high school at the time when it
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  Speaker 3: came out. It was just like crazy to watch her
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  Speaker 3: long friends and she and her my sister Danielle kind
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  Speaker 3: of you know, thought of themselves as the Gilmore Girls,
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  Speaker 3: well because daniel looked very young, and so they just
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  Speaker 3: sort of you know, so the show really spoke to
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  Speaker 3: them in that way, right.
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  Speaker 1: Right, you know, I really want to get into what
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  Speaker 1: a terrific debater he was, what a terrific personality he was,
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  Speaker 1: what a towering intellect he was, and how he came
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  Speaker 1: on the Dick Caviot Show. For people who don't know
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  Speaker 1: who Dick, the Dick Cabot was, Dick Cabot had a
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  Speaker 1: talk show, a very popular daytime talk show, and he
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  Speaker 1: would have all of the leading figures of the day.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, when did Dick Cabot show. It was a
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  Speaker 1: seventies show. It wasn't eighties or a sixties and seventies, right, okay,
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  Speaker 1: all right, so you know it was a different time
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  Speaker 1: back then. It was it was politicians, it was it
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  Speaker 1: was artists, it was individuals. When people really you know,
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  Speaker 1: were imbued with individuality and a lot of a lot
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  Speaker 1: of authors came on a lot of writers. And you know,
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  Speaker 1: to watch that, uh, that tet tet between your father
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  Speaker 1: and Gourvidale, because Gorvidale had been very critical of your father.
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  Speaker 1: He was very critical of Naked and the Deady. He said,
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  Speaker 1: it's just a John dos Passos rip off, and you know,
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  Speaker 1: just trying to label your father as a male chauveness
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  Speaker 1: pig because your father dared to make these arguments and
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  Speaker 1: analyze the women's movement at the time and wrote a
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  Speaker 1: very thoughtful piece about it. Because he was he was
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  Speaker 1: also known, as you know, quite a bright light in
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  Speaker 1: the field of journalism because he combined the sensibility and
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  Speaker 1: the subjectivity and the artistry and the complexity of a
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  Speaker 1: novelist with you know, the subjective discipline that is journalism.
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  Speaker 1: So what do you remember about those battles with gord Vidal?
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  Speaker 1: And I know they were friends, but then when Gore started,
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  Speaker 1: you know, painting him with this sort of brush that
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  Speaker 1: he was this sort of thick headed, egotistical male chauvinist
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  Speaker 1: who was obsessed with murder and you know, violence and
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  Speaker 1: this kind of thing. What do you remember about those times?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think it was unfortunate because they
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  Speaker 3: were really good friends, and then they had a falling out.
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  Speaker 3: And I think my dad's whole shtick and even on
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  Speaker 3: that is that he's you know, he was really politically incorrect.
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  Speaker 3: So he liked to say things to sort of get
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  Speaker 3: you know, a conversation started, you know what I'm saying,
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  Speaker 3: And so with Gore, I don't, you know, I can't
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  Speaker 3: really speak to you know, how that relationship necessarily went
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  Speaker 3: south in terms of you know, I think it was just,
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  Speaker 3: you know, it was a couple of really powerful egos clashing.
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  Speaker 3: Then they did have a physical altercation at a cocktail party. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: and that that was in the in the seventies, I believe,
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  Speaker 3: because they didn't talk for a long time and they
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  Speaker 3: saw each other and uh, I mean my history, I
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  Speaker 3: don't want to my history might not be that accurate,
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  Speaker 3: but I know, yeah, there was it was a little
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  Speaker 3: something and uh, and then they didn't speak for years
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  Speaker 3: after that. But then they ended up doing a reading
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  Speaker 3: of Don Juan and Hell in a Cape cod in
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  Speaker 3: a province sound or Truro, Massachusetts, and so they you know,
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  Speaker 3: they made amends and so that was lovely that they
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  Speaker 3: were able to come back together because they both had
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  Speaker 3: great minds. And and even those shows are you know,
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  Speaker 3: are really fast. I remember I saw the other night
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  Speaker 3: my dad on the William F. Buckley Junior Show. That
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  Speaker 3: was really intense, you know, And and uh, man, I
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  Speaker 3: was just sort of he was a wild figure in
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  Speaker 3: those days. And and uh, you know, and he was
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  Speaker 3: drinking a lot, and you know, and I don't think
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  Speaker 3: he was really doing drugs anymore and be a little pot,
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  Speaker 3: but you know, he was. He was out there like
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  Speaker 3: a lot of people were in the sixties. It was
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  Speaker 3: a wild time. And he did have just such an
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  Speaker 3: extraordinary political mind. Yes, I love to sit at the
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  Speaker 3: dinner table listening to him. And he predicted everything that's happening,
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  Speaker 3: you know, in America right now in terms of democracy.
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  Speaker 3: And and my youngest brother John and a gentleman named j.
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  Speaker 3: Michael Lennon, who's the authorized biographer of my dad and
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  Speaker 3: came out with a book called A Double Life. Several
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  Speaker 3: years ago. John and Mike put together a compilation of
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  Speaker 3: a lot of my dad's political writings. Yeah, it's called
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  Speaker 3: a Mysterious Country, the uh, the Grace and Fragility of
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  Speaker 3: American Democracy. And this just came out, and Uh, I've
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  Speaker 3: been reading and it's just very profound. And there's excerpt
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  Speaker 3: from The Naked and the Dead when the General is
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  Speaker 3: going on sort of is really talking about fascism with
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  Speaker 3: with intrigue and and uh, you know, and positivity and
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  Speaker 3: and making trying to make it sound very good. But
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  Speaker 3: then there's this you know, intellectual lieutenant or captain who
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  Speaker 3: you know, thinks he's full of sort of challenging him subtly,
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  Speaker 3: but the General really loves that he's challenging him. That's
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  Speaker 3: why he befriends him so they can have these discussions.
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  Speaker 3: And there's a really cool like the sixth Tenets of
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  Speaker 3: Democracy that that John and might kind of derived from
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  Speaker 3: a lot of my dad's theories.
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  Speaker 1: And real quick, which administrations did your father consider to
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  Speaker 1: be totalitarian? Because he wrote about that?
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  Speaker 3: Was it?
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  Speaker 1: Nixon?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean, I mean everyone, you know, I think Reagan? Right, Bush?
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  Speaker 3: I mean, he loved Obama. He passed before Obama was elected,
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  Speaker 3: but he was you know, saw the beginning of the
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  Speaker 3: campaign and just just thought he was amazing. I'm sure
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  Speaker 3: he would have been Sociality passed. Let's not see that happen.
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  Speaker 3: A great moment in this country.
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  Speaker 1: Right the year before Obama was elected right, Yeah, exactly, Yeah, I.
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  Speaker 3: Have an air on my phone. I want to read
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: because it's really u it's just great. So one, exercise
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  Speaker 3: free speech and encourage civic involvement. Involvement to build left
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  Speaker 3: right bridges and dialogue. Three, be wary of corporate power
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  Speaker 3: and create equity between worker rewards and corporate corporate profits.
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  Speaker 3: For men the wounds of slavery, and eliminate all forms
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  Speaker 3: of discrimination. Five distrust flag waving patriots. Six never forget
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: the past. Just that little piece just in terms of
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  Speaker 3: you know, as I said, what's happening now? I I
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  Speaker 3: love that it's very succinct and beautiful and hopeful, and
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  Speaker 3: I think full of love and understanding, and you know,
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  Speaker 3: because he really cared, He really loved. He loved this country.
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  Speaker 3: He loved you know, democracy, and and loved the art
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  Speaker 3: that came out of this country, loved jazz.
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  Speaker 1: He ran for mayor, didn't he mayor of New York City?
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  Speaker 3: For mayor in nineteen sixty nine?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, how'd that go?
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  Speaker 3: But I don't remember. I think he debated William F. Buck.
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  Speaker 3: I think he was the no. He was a Republican.
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  Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure he.
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  Speaker 1: Was at that time, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, he
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  Speaker 1: did not like liberals.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah back in the day. Yeah yeah, But I don't know.
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  Speaker 3: I don't think he became the mayor though Buckley I could,
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: but having a debate, right, and that talk show was
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: right before I think they ended up. They had that debate.
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  Speaker 3: But I mean, he wanted to in New York City
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  Speaker 3: into the fifty first state. That was his platform. Yeah,
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: really yeah. But there's some cips of him, you know,
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  Speaker 3: you know, going around the city and and talking to
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  Speaker 3: the crowds and yeah, and there was a joke. I
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: think he was with Warren Baby and Warren I remember
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: there was some talk back the name of Warren Baby
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  Speaker 3: maybe running for president and in my and he called
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  Speaker 3: my dad to to discuss some some policies or something.
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  Speaker 3: I forget what they want to discuss, but he's like,
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  Speaker 3: all right, but I'm going to make a deal with you.
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  Speaker 3: And Baby said what He's like, I get I get
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  Speaker 3: to be the VP. Baby said, all right, you'll be
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: the VP. And my or my dad wanted something else,
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: but I can't remember. You wanted to be member of
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: the cabinet. Mhm.
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  Speaker 1: So Norman does Gilmore girls, you guys fly back. I
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: guess he lived in New York. I'm assuming he lived
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: in Brooklyn.
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  Speaker 3: Ye. At that time, he was living in Provincetown, Massachusetts,
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: robinst Okay, Yeah, he and my stepmother, Norris, moved there
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: after my brother John went to college, right, and that
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: nineteen ninety six, twenty years of his life. So it
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: was a big deal. And is you know, he didn't
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: move very well. You know, I met him in Horton, Boston,
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: and and you know, he had to have a wheelchair
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: through the thing, so he was really you know, he
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: was doing a great favorite for me. I had just
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: split from my ex wife and we had two small boys,
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: five and one. So I just moved into my own
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: apartment in Brooklyn and money was a little tight. So
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: this is just just help to get this this gig,
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: and and so that was part of it. It was
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  Speaker 3: lovely just to spend time with him and he you know,
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  Speaker 3: my stepmother was his six wife and he had nine children,
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: so so he really knew how to commiserate with me.
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  Speaker 3: It was a really cool journey and and uh yeah,
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: and we and I loved just helping him and being
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: a part of that. And I remember the loveliest thing
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: that happened there though, was I think there was a
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: break in shooting and he was sitting outside and a
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: lot of the young writers gathered around him, and they
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: had a little sort of forum, you know, and and
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: and he just loved loved holding court, and he just
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: loved loved the art of writing, and and so and
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: Jessica had told her, I never I didn't see this.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: I don't know where I was, but but jess said
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: that happened, and and and I and that he, you know,
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: was just so giving and and and and open, and
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: that the writers have just loved it.
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  Speaker 1: How did he So he goes to Harvard, He graduates
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: with a with a degree in aeronautical engineeering. Yes, if
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: I am not mistaken, Yeah, okay, So one thing leads
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: to another. How does that? Where's that bridge from aeronautical
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: engineering to journalism.
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  Speaker 3: Well, he had written a story when he was eight
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: years old and the teacher called my grandmother in and said,
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: you obviously wrote this for him. This is this is
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: a big no no. And my my grandmother was incensed, like,
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: I would never do something thing. You know, my boy
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: is a genius. And so I think that was the
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: first little like, oh you know, he's got some talent here.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: And then he won a major short story writing contest
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: when he was at Harvard and was on the road
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: to the lampoon.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Oh he did, he was, he was one of he was.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, so I think the writing was always there,
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: and then.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: For for for people listening in if you don't know
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: what the Harvard Lampoon is or what I'm assuming it's
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: still still standing. A lot of the writers from the
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: Harvard Lampoon end up in Hollywood writing films and major
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: TV shows, And there's a real lineage from from Harvard
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: to to Hollywood. So yeah, so so was he ever
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: tempted to follow in the footsteps of so many before
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: him to come to Hollywood and start writing for film
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: and TV.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: When The Naked and the Dead came out, you know,
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: he became instantly famous. And you know, at that time,
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: when you had the number one best seller, it was
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: a very big deal, and I'm sure it's a big
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: deal now. But just in terms of you know, reading,
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: it was before television, so reading was I think more
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: more of the culture of the day of that day, right.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Right, The real the real rock stars of the day
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: were writers. The intellect the intellectuals were bigger than actors.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: They were bigger than musicians. They were the thing.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, jazz musicians are pretty like you know, the
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Miles Davis and the Charlie Parkers like those like that scene.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: The writers and you know, jazz musicians. That was it.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't politicians, It wasn't musicians. It wasn't actors.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, even though it was, but it was really
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: like the big writers that everybody. Everybody read them, everybody
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: discussed them.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and Hemingway was my dad's hero, Steinbeck, you know,
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: all In Fitzgerald. And so he came out to Hollywood
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: because they you know, the film got bought, I mean,
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: the book got bought to be a film. And he
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: lived out here for about a year and was sort
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: of in that scening, but he didn't he really didn't
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: like it to me. To him, it felt like a
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: lazy summer day, you know, every day, and he just
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: couldn't really get any writing done. So it was a
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: brief year.
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: And then since you know, I mean, I think he
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: always when he was at college, he got cast in
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: Awakened sing Hm.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: So he got that Barney and he learned his lines
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: and then I think, uh, the what did the war race?
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: Somedthing happened where the completed did not go on, so
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: he feels like that had happened. He might have been
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: an actor, but he always yeah, he always loved film
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: and and and made some like I remember some films
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: from like the early fifties and Brooklyn Heights, and then
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: ended up making these you know, sort of three kind
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: of seminal wild improvisational films that you know are part
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: of the Criterion collection. You know, again, a lot of people,
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: I think for friends and family, you know, it's, uh,
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: we we dig them, but you know, they can be
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: a lot leave a lot to be desired for others.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: And then he ended up directing Tough Guys Don't Dance,
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: one of his novels, and we always you know, yeah,
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: so I think, you know, he I think he loved
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: great filmmaking, but was very impatient, if like, in terms
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: of like watching television with him, that was a nightmare
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: because he literally watched something for a minute and again
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: then move on. It was just like constant you know,
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: channel surfing, right right.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Right, So.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about the aftermath of of
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: when the show actually aired, was Norman approached by people,
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, you were on Gilmore Girls and they
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: didn't know him. They didn't really know him as Norman
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: mail They didn't know who Norman Mailer was or what
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: he'd done in his career, but they knew him from
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Gilmore Girls.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah. I think a lot of people instead of
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: knowing Hi from gil Murgirl Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: can't you know, it's that that part of this I
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: don't remember as well. Scott. I'm so sorry. I think
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: he did get a lot of recognition from doing that show.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing how many people recognize, like, you know,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: they'll recognize extras from the show.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: They pour over every detail of every episode. It's a
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: very dedicated as you well know, they're very dedicated. So
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: what are you working on now? What are you doing
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: now with your career?
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: I made a film. I'm a writer as well. I
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: had to get into a seventeen year men's group based
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: on the work of Carl Jung about identifying the father's
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: dark shadow, processing that and connecting to their golden shadow
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: their creativity. So I was always part to be a writer,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: but I just couldn't get past the shadow part of it, right,
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: and seventeen years agree by finally after several years, started writing,
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: and I wrote a few plays and a couple of
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: screenplays and a pilot for a sketch comedy show. And
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: I ended up just producing and directing the one of
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: the screenplays I did. It's called Flow Group. It's really wild.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: It's sort of like mel Brooks on acid. It's out there.
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: And and again, I love very you know, some of
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: my like a lot of my you know, family and friends.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: That's a lot of acid. I mean, no book.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: That literally like Young Frankenstein and Blazing Saddle, so you know,
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: and I went to when I was eight and nine.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: I know, I know Young Frankenstein I think was my hero. Yeah, yeah,
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: so I really so I did that. And it's been
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: a really long process, you know. I got an LLC
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen and then shot it in twenty seventeen
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: that I've really been editing it, and I'm even editing
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: it right now. I'm just doing the final sort of
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: credit sequence and and so I'm gonna have some screenings
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: of that and and it was just a little wonderful process.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: I just love it. And yes, that's that's that's what
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: I'm doing right now.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, terrific. Yeah, it's interesting. I produced and financed a
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: film in twenty thirteen and I'm still editing it as Well'
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: still putting finishing touches on it. May I may never
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: release it, but I'm certainly going to get it right
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: or else I'll die trying.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: I love editing. It's so much fun, and you.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Know what I do too. It's the best part of
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: it for me.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's really where the film is made. Yes,
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: it is. And it really helps to have a great editor.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: We sort of like works with you and it's really
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: positive and supportive.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: I've had two and they were both well, yeah, and
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: they were both wonderful, and we are really shaping this film. Yeah,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: you know, it's too bad we don't have a cooperative
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: director or lead actress. But you know, that's why it's
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: taking so long. But you know, people's feelings get hurt
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: and their vision get they feel their vision get crushed,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, yeah, it's like you know,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: people are either going to watch your film and then
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: they're going to go watch paint dry, and they're going
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: to have a better time watching the paint try, so
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: we've got to save this film somehow. Anyway, what else
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: can you tell us about the experience that we haven't
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: gone through. Did he enjoy it? Did he really enjoy it?
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah? He did, absolutely.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: And he had a great friend out here, a guy
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: named Mickey Knox, and another friend, Larry Schiller, and we
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: all went out to dinner. I think Larry sort of,
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: you know, told him how to do the deal, because
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: Larry's a producer and writer and photographer and took those
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: famous photographs of Marilynroe in the pool years ago. It
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: was a real Hollywood you know.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Tell us about this. What was his relationship with Marilyn Monroe,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: because I know he wrote a book about her.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he just he never met her. He sat behind
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: her once at a like a movie premiere or a
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: play and I think she was married to Arthur Miller
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: at the time, and he almost tapped her on the shoulder,
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: but it didn't happen. That it happened that you know,
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: who knows, I could be Marilyn Monroe son. But I
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: think he just really he really loved He would just
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: you know, was really infatuated with her. And as a kid,
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: we got to you know. I remember just he would
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: get all the copies of the film. We'd watched them
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: in the living room, and and I didn't realize that
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: he's like what an extraordinary you know actress. She she is,
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like he just played this
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: ditsy the doun block.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: She was brilliant as.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: The greatest ever And so I think he really he
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: really celebrates that in the book. And there's a lot
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: of beautiful photos and and Larry actually made deals with
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: Tash in this great German Yeah, and so Maryland came
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: out Maryland and and the fight before that, and there's
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: beautiful photos and yeah, Larry, Larry was great because Larry
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: actually brought the Gary Gilmour. He brought the rights to
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: that and came to my father, and I believe that's
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: how they first met. I want you to well, actually, no,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: I guess he must have known him from Maryland.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Because he won the pulitzer for the executioner.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: So yeah, so Larry brought that to my father and
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: that that and an American dream also on the pulitzer,
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: you know, or I think considered his you.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Know, and not Naked in the dead was the pulitzer
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: around back then he.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: Didn't n The Dead win the Pulitzer Everyone Book of
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: the Year award, Like I think it won a lot
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: of awards, right right, My dad years and sort of
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: he would read through and he's like, oh my god,
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: I was such a young writer. I made so many mistakes.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Talking about editing the film. Sure he might have been like,
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: be written some of it. I could see him doing that.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: So we're gonna play a little game called rapid Fire.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: You ready, You're ready? Okay, here we go. How do
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: you like your coffee?
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: I drink a French Press in the morning. I don't
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: know what the basic side, one of the traditional size,
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: and I do that every morning, so it's probably about
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: two very large cups.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, uh, it's called rapid fire. Rapid fire.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: It's a tangent.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: You team Logan, Team Jess from.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: You're not going to get a quick answer.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: From all right, So we'll rename the we'll rename this.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Are you Team Logan, Team Jess or Team Dean? If
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: you have any idea what that means?
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: I don't. Oh, is that is that one of the girls?
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, okay, so I guess.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: That would be who is the Melissa McCarthy character.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Uh? So your team Suki? Okay, your team Suki. So
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: you think Suki is better suited for Rory as an
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: intimate Okay? Great? Uh you're on record now, there's no
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: taking it back. I understand we all do. Who is
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: your favorite Gilmour Girls couple, Luke and Laurele I or
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Richard and Emily?
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: Were you Luke?
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: I was?
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Luke and Laurel I right?
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: I think I still am Luke the last time I checked.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: But I shouldn't refer to as in the past tense,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: but maybe that was the case. What would you order
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: at Luke's diner?
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh, rapid Fire, rapid.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Fire, Jackson or Taylor for the town selectmen?
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: Oh, I gotta refresh.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: You would you would want? You would want Taylor? Just
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: say Taylor, Taylor, Taylor? Good good answer, good answer. Would
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: you rather listen to hep Alien or the Troubadour's cover
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: songs of Troubadour's covers? Good answer? Your nallon Harvard or Yale?
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: Harvard?
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Of course? Uh? What's Rory's bigger mistake? Crashing the car
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: her boyfriend built for her or sleeping with her ex
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: who is married? And by the way, they happen to
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: be the same person. So what's the bigger mistake? The
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: car crash or the uh the uh? Okay, the sleeping
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: with the x Okay, yes you're and you're correct about that. Uh?
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Who from Gilmour? Would you not want to be stuck
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: on a desert island?
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: Oh? I think all the characters were wonderful. Wasn't the
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: father of the lore Lies dad? Wasn't he a little Uh?
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: Wasn't he a little cantankerous?
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Yea a little bit?
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Maybe him?
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: So maybe Shell, the snooty French concierge at the dragonfly In.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: I guess so, yes, Michelle, I don't know. It just
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: came to me.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: I'm about to see him, so I wanted to get
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: that and so I have something over. I love this game.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: This is awesome. Uh something in your life? You are
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: all in.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: On being a father and a husband.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: There you go, all right, Steven, it was a pleasure,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: and uh, we'd love to have you back on. I
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: got a million more things I want to talk with
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: you about. But anyway, best of luck to you and
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: keep on keeping on, brother. Thank you, thank you, thank
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: you for apologies for oh no worries, but thank you,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: thank you for sharing uh these these very warm and
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: very intimate stories your father.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: Oh, it's my pleasure and he'd be thrilled.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much and enjoy your day, right, take care,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: hey everybody, and don't forget follow us on Instagram at
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: I Am all In podcast and email us at Gilmore
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: at iHeartRadio dot com. Oh you're Gilmore friends. If you're
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: looking for the best cup of coffee in the world,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: go to my website from my company Scottip dot com
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: s C O T T y P dot com, Scottip
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: dot com Grade one Specialty Coffee